38000 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 4, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: Aloko ( wasRe: [dsg] Re: The indispensability of Pali) Hi Phil, I think Htoo and Suan clarified in detail, but just one more comment: --- plnao wrote: > \> > 'Cakkhu.m udapaadi, nana.m udapaadi, pannaa udapaadi, vijja udapaadi, > > aloko udapaadi.' > > > > Cakkhu or vision arises. > > Nana or knowledge arises. > > Panna or wisdom arises. > > Vijja or penetrative wisdom arises. > > Aloko or direct light arises. .... S: Here aloko is used as another synonym for wisdom or vision, not to be confused with the light of visible object. (cf the English expression, I saw the light at last). .... > > I have a question about aloko. I notice that it is one of the four > conditions for > an eye-door process to arise, but I don't see it in the compendium of > rupa. > What is it if it isn't rupa? .... S: It's an aspect of visible object. Funnily enough, I was asking a similar qu on the trip. In other references, only visible object is given. .... > We occasionally read in suttas reference to light, such as in the > Dhammapada > when the Buddha says "those whose minds are well-grounded in the seven > factors of awakening, who without clinging to anything rejoice in > freedom > from > attachment, whose appetities have been conquered, and who are full of > light > they win nibbana here in this world..." It is hard for me to know what > "full of light" .... S: Wisdom again. I appreciate the other more detailed replies. ***** Fatigue - experiences through the body-sense and then many, many mind door processes - lots of kilesa (defilements), always finding an object;-). When there's sati (awreness) no thought of fatigue or 'poor me' at these times. Usually, however, we look for someone/something/a situation to blame for the dosa. On the trip Nina often referred to the 'bitter medicine' we have to swallow when we hear the truth. Metta, Sarah ======= 38001 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 1:10am Subject: Phassa (Contact) continues;-) Dear DN, KenO, Suan, Howard, KenH & All, I think I've followed most of the discussion and I seem to agree with everyone at least in part. As I understand: 1. The 'coming together' IS phassa as I think Howard makes clear. It is the reality of phassa cetasika. As DN says (37604), it is not 'some additional factor...'. Any time we read 'phassa' in the suttas, it is phassa cetasika as defined in the Abhidhamma. 2. There is no conflict or distinction in meaning between the descriptions given in the suttas, the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Merely different ways of description as KenO suggests. 3. The cetasikas condition each other and the citta they arise with. Without phassa 'contacting', no experience or feeling etc. 4. In the suttas, phassa is defined by the 'coming together', the 'meeting', the 'concurrence' (DN's post:37692)which I understand to be the contacting of the object. No difference. The manifestation as given in the Atth definition ('coinciding'...as its manifestation) is how it is revealed or shows up, just as described in the suttas. 5. The Dhs definition given by Suan and discussed by DN (37727)- '...Anything which on that occasion is contact, contacting, way of contacting, the state of contacting: this on that occasion, is called contact' seems clear and in accord. Like DN, I take is as a definition of phassa(cetasika)itself, rather than of anything distinct from 'the coming together'. 6. DN, on a side note, in your discussion with Suan, you refer to how careful Kalupahana is to back up his arguments. I have no idea about this, but on the topic of 'phassa' I wrote a post to Howard before when it seemed this might not be the case. I'd be glad if you would take a look: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27298 7. DN, I couldn't easily find your references in Kathavatthu (37727), I'd be glad for further assistance. Perhaps you can elaborate on the distinction as you see it between the Dhammasangani, the Atthasalini and the Kathavatthu definitions as you see it. I don't read any of the definitions to be 'in the nature of an agent' or 'an event', though our language use may suggest otherwise. Like KenH, when I read the common or conventional language used by the Buddha or commentators, I understand it to be referring to paramattha dhammas. What else is there as he says? Again, I've appreciated all the comments and look forward to any clarifications if I've missed the points. Suan, I hope you'll also continue to add your input - I know Nina will be glad to see you posting. Metta, Sarah ===== 38002 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: Samyutta Nikaya threads --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: p.s James - great posts for the teens. Beautifully written. Thanks My only > suggestion would be to avoid the controversial translation terms of > 'stress' and 'unbinding' if possible. Thanks for the suggestion but I think those terms are fine. If Rob M. wishes to change anything later on, of course he can. (If he changes too much though and starts to describe the Eightfold Path as momentary mind moments…well, that will just be his karma ;-)) Metta, James 38003 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Mike, I was beginning to feel disappointed since only Sarah had responded. But yours is equivalent to ten responses, especially because you seem to agree with me. :-)) > For an arahat, aren't dhammas empty and impermanent? Why shouldn't they > also be unsatisfactory? I think sometimes people confuse dukkha with > domanassa--and in some contexts maybe these are synonymous--but not in this > one, I think. > > mike This is what I had said and included dukkha vedana as possible cause for limited understanding of 'Dukkha'. And I even suggested that it is understandable that we all start with this limited understanding, but that we should not stop here. Thanks for responding Mike. With Metta, Sukin. 38004 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta?/Steve Hello Steve, Thanks for the welcome back - I arrived home to find my phone not working (and thence my computer), and spent the first day convinced I had not received a bill and had been unfairly treated - the proliferations were interesting. I could have gone to war against Telstra after I convinced myself that I had been unjustifiably disconnected, but it turned out to be a faulty handset which was very promptly and courteously replaced. Lucky I tried the softly, softly approach first. :-) I think it might be worth going back and reading and reflecting more on the rest of the Digha Nikaya - thanks for pointing out the patterns ... Looking forward to seeing you at Cooran in early December :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Welcome Back.. When I first read your `A question' post, I too > thought of the first 10 Suttas in the Digha Nikaya (not including the > 1st and 7th Suttas). They all pretty much have the same list of > teachings as the Samanapala Sutta but in different settings. The list > is basically > Hearing the Dhamma, gains faith in the teachings, > leaves the home life, perfects morality, guards the sense doors, is > accomplished in mindfulness and clear awareness, contentedness, > abandoning the hindrances, Jhana, directs and inclines his mind > towards knowing and seeing, attainment of the super powers and the > cessation of the asavas.. Birth is finished, the holy life has been > led, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.. > > Take care > Steve > > ps. see you in about a months time :-) 38005 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta?/ TG Hello TG, all, Yes, I agree with you about different suttas being suitable for different people depending on their current level of understanding and need. I have just read the two suttas from the Majjhima Nikkaya that you mention. A lot to reflect on here. I wonder why Anaathapindika had never heard such a talk on the Dhamma before Sariputta spoke to him on his death bed? Weren't we told there was nothing kept in the closed fist of the Master? And having just seen the number of cows roaming free around India, it is easier to understand now how a few of the Bhikkhus, like Pukkusaati, were killed by them. MN 140 Dhaatu-vibhanga Sutta 'An Analysis of the Properties' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn140.html and MN 143 Anaathapindikovaada Sutta 'Instructions to Anaathapindika' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn143.html The Samyutta Nikaya Books 2-5 Auggh! So many suttas, so little time! :-) Thanks TG. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > First of all... its not likely any single discourse can present a > comprehensive view of the Buddha's teaching. I think all of (at least) the Four Great > Nikayas need regular attention to possibly get the correct sensibility and > meaning of his teachings. > > Second point... I don't believe it is possible to -- "grow to understand > only one of the Buddha's discourses." I think when one discourse is thoroughly > understood, they are all thoroughly understood. > > Third point... Whatever Sutta one currently likes the most is the one > impacting that mind at the level that does (that particular mind) the most good. So > one thousand different intellegent people could pick one thousand different > Suttas as their favorite because it was the one that had the most meaning to > them at their current understanding and moral standing. > > All that being said, the last time I read the Majjhima Nikaya the two Suttas > that stood out the most two me were #140 and #143. For a "hard core" insight > press, Samyutta Nikaya Books 2 -- 5 are excellent as well. > > Sorry, can't get down to one. :-) > > TG 38006 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/Ajahn Jose Dear Bhante, :-) Thank you for this post. I am suffering a few withdrawal symptoms after having access to Dhamma instruction for the two weeks I was in India. How fortunate you are to have daily access to other monks! I hope you are continuing to be well, and that your work in the Cross is productive. With metta and respect, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose wrote: > > Dear Christine, when we the monks are instructed by other senior monks and we are studying the word develops means to try to achieve or complete a task. Your interpretation is correct and also the suttras that you mention the word develops is correct. It means we should try to do something. Metta. Ajahn Jose 38007 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: "Develop!"/ RobM Hello Rob M, You say: "The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable"." I like that! and it does help :-) Makes me think of 'accumulations'. (And that's Politically Correct, eh KenH? ) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are > against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the > idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do > this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting > that there is a self that has control. > > Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which > is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not > translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this precept > is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of > life." The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada). > > The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable". > > Hope this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38008 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samyutta Nikaya threads Hi Sarah > Phil, please start posting any of the SN suttas you have in mind (or > extracts) with any comments or queries. None of them have been discussed > enough and I'll be delighted for one, to join further discussions. It's > probably easier to just go ahead rather than to look back for past > discussions. If anything particularly relevant comes to mind, I'll repost > it if I can or others may help. Yes, you're right. This would be best. Thank you kindly for those links. I think I'll wait until Nina is back and settled in. SN certainly is fascinating. These days the phrase "and what do you say, monks. Is form constant or inconstant?" keeps going through my head! I think "is form constant or inconstant?" (or the other khandas) reminds me of K Sujin's "is there seeing now?" We can ask ourselves these questions a hundred times a day, conditions permitting, or once in a lifetime. They are very good questions. Anyways, thanks again. More later on SN. Metta, Phil 38009 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Phil Hello Phil, Thank you for the welcome back, and thanks for what you call your babbling ways - I don't find them without substance. :-) I agree that 'develop' is baffling and paradoxical ... and toss in exasperating for good measure. I like your last paragraph as well - 'we *should* develop our immunity system if we want to stay healthy, but how do we do that? We *should* love our parents, but what good does it do being told that if the love doesn't arise? It cannot be done by will power or intention.We *should* develop wisdom, but how do we do that in an intentional way?' Food for thought there. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: 38010 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: "Develop!"/ KenH Hello KenH, Thank you for your welcome back - but why the relief? Is there something you aren't telling us? :-) Exasperating man! Before I knew about anatta I planned and performed actions. Now that 'I' know about anatta, 'I' still plan and perform actions. 'Who' was it that scrimped and saved, and planned, and went to India and back? So - why can't I 'develop reverence and suaveness' [never considered myself suave - what a funny translation];mindfulness of death; what is skilful; or concentration with directed thought and evaluation? Looking forward to Cooran -and seeing just who sets whom straight.:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" SNIP > C: > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing - > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co- > associates in the holy life" > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of > death" AN. VI.19 > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19 > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63 > > Any thoughts? > --------------------- > > I am tempted to say; "Wait until our Cooran meeting (3 to 5 > December), and we will set you straight," but that would be denying > the fact of anatta: There are only the paramattha dhammas of the > present moment. Accept that now or never! > > Kind regards, > Ken H 38011 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 3:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 106 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Saddha or confidence is a mental factor and it arises with any of sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. This mental factor is like a king in the kingdom of sobhana cittas and their associated cetasikas. When saddha arises with a citta, that citta is a sobhana citta. Saddha advises the great king citta to see things with unobstructed view. Saddha declouds the mind and it removes all cloud that makes citta dirty. That is why all cittas with saddha cetasika are sobhana cittas. Because saddha has already cleared away all akusala cetasikas and all dirt. In the presence of saddha, all the mental components of the mind are as clear as the sky without any cloud. Saddha clears away all dirts and dust and silts from water. It is said that saddha is like manijotira or a precious stone like ruby and when it is put in the muddy water, all mud sinks down and the water become clear. There are different translation and different interpretation on saddha. Some would say that saddha is connected with tiratana or triplegem that is The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. This is right. But I would say saddha is a mental factor which helps the king citta by clearing away all akusala dirts. Does saddha not arise in non-Buddhists? If no, they all will never have kusala and they could not have been queens, kings, presidents etc etc. Saddha is not copyright for just Buddhists. Saddha does arise in other people who are not Buddhists. But the existence and character of saddha is not fully known by people. That is why people used to say that all religions are equally good and they all help people in their own way. When saddha arises in anyone, they will be free of akusala dirts or sin and this will bring up good results. Even though liberation way has the exact characters and needs many many good mental qualities like samma-ditthi, people who do not have samma-ditthi may well develop saddha and may have good results of saddha. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38012 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Sarah Hello Sarah, I hope you are getting over your cough by now, and that Jon wasn't too exhausted by going straight back to work. It wasn't the smells of India that remained - I think Azita and I are in need of a little therapy - we thought Bangkok smelled wonderful and was in a pristine condition after leaving Bihar. :-) I'm going through my trip diary at the moment and am wishing I hadn't written it up in bed, in pencil, last thing at night - I should know I'm almost incoherent by then! But if I find anything that may be of interest, I'll post it. I tend to record the most unimportant things. e.g. I had two pages about my experience on the first day with a persistent young male beggar who cycled from site to site and was always waiting for me when the bus pulled up. He kept following me around and repeating, in front of others, about how I had been 'so nice to him the night before' and 'what had he done wrong that I was now ignoring him'. It did sound a little odd. :-( I can only assume that I must have said 'thank you' on the first night at the airport, if he was one of the luggage handlers. I was almost ready to desert and return to Oz until Shakti, with her wider experience of India, firmly sorted him out. However, he did state in an intimidating way that I would be born deaf and dumb in the next life. Can't think of the dhamma focus here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa go and metta rise. But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38013 From: Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner36-Feeli ng/Vedana (i) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/5/04 1:56:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I think you're on the right track and have raised good questions. Ear > door vedana is just like eye door vedana - must be neutral feeling, but > different sense door and mind door processes follow each other very > closely. Some people are particularly susceptible to bright lights or > sounds, so we can see that in addition to different accumulations of > defilements accompanying these experiences, there are also varying > body-sense experiences in between the eye door and ear door experiences > too. > ======================== So, then what constitutes tonal discord is a matter of mind, not ear, and what is discordant to most folks is still not discordant in itself? Discord depends on cognitional tendencies and not only on the nature of hearing and of sound per se? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38014 From: Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:13am Subject: A Look at the Term 'Dukkha' (Re: [dsg] Re: Samyutta Nikaya threads) Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/5/04 5:37:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > My only > >suggestion would be to avoid the controversial translation terms of > >'stress' and 'unbinding' if possible. > > Thanks for the suggestion but I think those terms are fine. If Rob > M. wishes to change anything later on, of course he can. (If he > changes too much though and starts to describe the Eightfold Path as > momentary mind moments…well, that will just be his karma ;-)) > ========================= No English words capture the full range of meaning of 'dukkha' even in the affective sense, let alone the more subtle existential sense. The translation of "suffering" is good only for dukkha of a relatively strong sort. Other translations such as "discomfort" (or "uncomfortable"), and "stress" (or "stressed") tend to adequately describe only weak dukkha. However, "stress" casts a somewhat wider net, I think, than either "suffering" or "uncomfortable". Also, "stressful" serves not badly in the existential sense (i.e., in referring to dhammas), though it is also somewhat weak in connotation. Now "trouble" (and "troubled") tend slightly towards the weak end of the spectrum, but are, in my opinion, closest in range to 'dukkha', and I think these may be the best of all. Also "trouble" and "troublesome" serve not badly even in the existential sense, I think, and better than "stress" and "stressful". I have read more than once that 'dukkha' originally carried the meaning of "off kilter" in the sense of a cart with one wheel larger than the other. This seems to carry the same sense as the Yiddish (and, I presume, German) "nicht gut". (Note the closeness of "trouble", "troublesome", and "troubled" to "off kilter" and "nicht gut".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38015 From: Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi, Sukin (and Mike) - In a message dated 11/5/04 6:44:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Mike, > > I was beginning to feel disappointed since only Sarah had responded. > But yours is equivalent to ten responses, especially because you seem > to agree with me. :-)) > ======================= Just a thought, Sukin: Your position aand Mike's may well be perfect. Or. perhaps another person's is closer to the mark. But for you, and me, and all of us - when a dearly held position of ours gets shaken by statements of others, I think that is a wonderful opportunity to see how much we grasp onto a position as "ours", and how troubled we become at seeing it threatened. This is a great opportunity to see the dukkha of clinging, and, regardless of the degree of correctness of our opinions, to relax our grasp, to let be and let go, and to see the ease that comes to mind in doing so. I think this far surpasses in importance the matter of how "good" ones positions are. It involves a kind of understanding or insight that is at the interface of cognition and emotion, and pertains to the critical issue of relinquishment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38016 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help Requested - Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Dear Rob M, Even though we don't see eye to eye on certain issues, I am genuinely respectful and appreciative of your efforts to teach the Dhamma. The lecture you are planning to give to young people reminds me of the religious instruction I received at school. We were taught to be kind, generous and wise (just like poor, suffering Jesus) and when, inevitably, we were cruel, selfish and stupid, we were taught to feel guilty, sinful and unworthy. What a shame we didn't have a RobM on the teaching staff! Or, better still, . . . Well, you know who I think would be better still. :-) The Dhamma you will teach cannot prevent the guilt and frustration that accompanies all conventional morality. When you finally accept the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries - when you accept there are only conditioned namas and rupas - you will be able to teach a true (absolutely real) alternative. Kind regards, Ken H 38017 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Phil Hi Christine, and all >I agree > that 'develop' is baffling and paradoxical ... and toss in > exasperating for good measure. Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's way through. I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part and parcel of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down a bit on a difficult point. More middle way. At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this - the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali term for it, I think. Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find it now. I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve renouncing our deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the power of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course. Metta, Phil 38018 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:59pm Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 47 & 48 Dear Dhamma Friends, Patthana Dhamma is discussed here at this site www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . So far there have been 48 pages. recently posted pages include page 47 which explains on ekaggata, jivitindriya, manasikara, vitakka, vicara, piti, viriya, chanda, and adhimokkha. This part can be viewed at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana47.html . And most recently another page that is page 48 has been posted. It deals with akusala cetasikas and explains on 4 moha-rooted cetasikas. Page 48 can be viewed at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana48.html . May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38019 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 6:29pm Subject: Re: "Develop!" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two > truths. ========== This is a letter I wrote to Bruce and old member of dsg. He wanted to know about develop and why Khun Sujin says 'develop understanding' so often: You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except nibbana > are > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then > thinking one > can develop anything seems like an exercise in > micchaditthi.... _________________ Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done. ____________________________ > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for > lack of a > better f-word) "fate"? "" __________________ Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did this that or the other nothing would make a thread of difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions. It is true that some are past conditions but there are also present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way and is neither. When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on the understanding of the listener. I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop them - but without wisdom. It was because I didn't understand anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be quickly got rid of. That when desire arises it is by conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it demonstrates the truth of anatta. Now my focus is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at all doing anything. This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of CRAVING should be known." Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the stage where all craving is gone but first it should be understood. If we are afraid of it then it is not possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true characteristic can be seen. Later the sutta says: "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving." and it repeats for the other senses. "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. ...... If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. " robertk 38020 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Howard, > > I was beginning to feel disappointed since only Sarah had responded. > > But yours is equivalent to ten responses, especially because you seem > > to agree with me. :-)) > > > ======================= > Just a thought, Sukin: Your position aand Mike's may well be perfect. > Or. perhaps another person's is closer to the mark. But for you, and me, and > all of us - when a dearly held position of ours gets shaken by statements of > others, I think that is a wonderful opportunity to see how much we grasp onto a > position as "ours", and how troubled we become at seeing it threatened. This > is a great opportunity to see the dukkha of clinging, and, regardless of the > degree of correctness of our opinions, to relax our grasp, to let be and let go, > and to see the ease that comes to mind in doing so. I think this far > surpasses in importance the matter of how "good" ones positions are. It involves a > kind of understanding or insight that is at the interface of cognition and > emotion, and pertains to the critical issue of relinquishment. ------------------------------------------------- Yes, good reminders. Every experience can be natural decisive support condition for akusala for most of us. There is not only the possibility of clinging, but also mana, dosa and almost any other akusala. And of course direct experience of any of these is worth more than any amount of theory gathered. However we must still differentiate between Right and Wrong view on the intellectual level. There may be clinging to a position and feeling aversion to opposing views expressed. And there can even be `doubt' with regard to one's position immediately following that. But if indeed one's position is associated with right view, then at least at that moment there is no clinging, but instead a degree of detachment, I think. So we do have to look out for akusala at any given moment, but we should not have an attitude toward Right View in a way that in our eagerness to `not cling' to anything at all, we end up throwing the baby out with the bath-water. What do you think? :-) Metta, Sukin. 38021 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 9:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 42-Feeling/Vedana (o) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Domanassa, unhappy feeling, arises only with cittas of the jåti which is akusala; it always arises with dosa-múla-citta, it does not arise with lobha-múla-citta or with moha-múla-citta. It depends on one’s accumulations whether dosa-múla-cittas arise or not. When an unpleasant object such as a disagreeable flavour presents itself, dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise. If there is, however, wise attention to the unpleasant object, kusala citta arises instead of akusala citta. Dosa-múla-citta can arise only in the sensuous planes of existence, it cannot arise in the higher planes of existence where those who cultivate jhåna can be reborn. In the sensuous planes there is clinging to the sense objects and this conditions dosa. When one does not obtain pleasant sense objects dosa is likely to arise. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38022 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Causality & Impermanance - transcript of TV program Dear Suravira, Sorry for the delay. Just catching up. --- Suravira wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks so much for taking the time to review the TV transcript and > to reply to it. <....> > [Suravira] Unfortunately, as a broker in charge of a real estate > firm, my current fiduciary responsibilities to my clients are such > that I am unable to take time off from work next week to attend the > 10 day retreat. The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray. > Fortunately, the benefits derived from the assigned research (in > preparation of the advanced teachers retreat) are very rewarding in > themselves (nonetheless not being able to attend the retreat and > spend more time with Venerable Bhante G does sadden me). .... Sarah: Feel free to share any of your research and reflections. Did you read B.Bodhi's long article I posted on the necessity or otherwise of jhanas? Did you have any comments? I have some comments I've been meaning to add inc a few more from points I raised for discussion in India. Maybe this week...maybe... .... > > > time. Time is a concept, it's not a reality to be known. See > Karunadasa's > > article on Time (but not Space). > [Suravira] I have tracked down Karunadasa's paper (Time and Space: > The Abhidhamma Perspective), and have read it. It is a really good > essay. I will get back to you on this paper. By appending the > phrase "(but not Space)" are you implying that you concur with > Karunadasa's presentation of Time, but not his presentation of Space? .... Sarah: Without looking at it now, I think that was the conclusion some of us came to. Space, akasa rupa is a reality, but he seemed to conclude it was a concept. Look forward to your further comments here as well. (Also see U.P. on 'Space' and 'time'.) .... > > > ignorance, no. By a Buddha's omniscience, yes. See `Niyama' > in `Useful > > Posts'. > [Suravira] I will try to locate Niyama's paper. .... Sarah: Niyama is not a person who writes papers but a Pali word referrring to the 'fixed law' or way that processes naturally unfold. You can look under the topic 'niyama' is what I meant. Niyama or natural law covers: a) utu-niyaama - seasons, temperature etc b) biija-niyaama - plant-life c) kaama-niyaama - kamma and vipaka d) citta-niyaama - functions and processes of cittas e) dhamma-niyaama - ways in which the Dhamma is taught and unfolds or I believe it also covers 'universals' in the lives and teachings of Buddhas. Htoo or someone will correct me if I'm wrong or maybe add more - I haven't checked the U.P. posts myself. Metta, Sarah ===== 38023 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 0:33am Subject: India reflections Hello again, All As with previous visits, the India trip was both a fascinating experience and an invaluable dhamma session. On the conventional level, the country certainly makes a big impact on the senses, and one comes away with many vivid, almost overwhelming, memories. Our group were all fun and easy to travel with, and I enjoyed the company of other DSG-ers and dhammas friends from Thailand and elsewhere. As regards the teachings, I learnt some bits and pieces of information that were new to me or that I had heard but forgotten about, such as that khanti (patience) is the mental factor viriya (energy, effort) about which there is so much said on this list. When I heard this I was reminded that effort has 4 aspects (described as the 4 padhaanas) including the forbearing from akusala that has not arisen and the non-persisting of akusala that has risen, and I see a connection here. Most of all, however, I valued the many useful reminders and reflection that occurred during the trip. This is the benefit that comes from being with good Dhamma friends. There is nothing particularly new in what I have in mind here, just the 'usual suspects' I suppose you could say, but I will mention some points anyway— - The need for, and value of, repeated listening to useful reminders about the basics such as nama and rupa, seeing and visible object, not-self, etc, and how just these are the present moment and the present moment is nothing more than just these. - The importance of awareness (at whatever weak or incipient level) of a presently arising dhamma, and the relative unimportance of the conventional 'situation' or the nature of the accompanying mindstate (and how trying to deal with the 'situation' misses the point of the Buddha's teaching). - The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something that is not, and cannot be, right understanding). - The conditioned nature ('natural' arising) of all dhammas including in particular sati/panna (and accordingly why selecting an object for awareness to be aware of will mean that what arises cannot be awareness of a dhamma). - The relative unimportance of knowing whether the present mindstate is kusala or akusala. I know this is a very controversial point, but I can assure you it's well worth considering. To begin with, it's inevitable that there will be more kusala than akusala in our lives; secondly, what has arisen has arisen and has in fact fallen away again already; and most importantly, this kind of knowledge is not insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. - The importance of remembering that the reason we study and discuss the dhamma is for the better understanding of presently arising dhammas, and for detachment from those dhammas (and not for any other reason). - The bearing in mind that our deeply ingrained craving for further becoming is ultimately a craving for just more of what is being experienced through the different sense-doors right now and for the feelings that arise on account of those experiences. - The value of confidence in the gradual accrual over a long period of all kinds of kusala and especially of panna, and of confidence in a moment of kusala as the best thing that could ever happen to a person (and the need for patience to accept that that's the way it is). In short, everything the aspiring practitioner needs to know!! ;-)) So it was a great trip. But it's always good to be 'home' again. Looking forward to taking part in the discussions again, which I found myself improperly equipped to do in India, despite having loads electronic stuff with me (some advice for anyone thinking of travelling around India: an old-fashioned floppy disk and drive is still much more useful for swapping data between your laptop and a local computer than a USB key drive!). Cheers Jon 38024 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 0:37am Subject: Kalyanamitta in India Dear All, After Shakti helped me with the persistent and intimidating beggar, she, Azita, Jill, Betty and Pinna decided to hire a car and go to see the cave in which the Buddha meditated with the five fellow ascetics before he decided self-torture was not the way, and accepted the milk from Suchada. I was in the vehicle initially, but suddenly felt drained and decided not to go on the couple of hours trip and left them to it. I went down to lunch and found Jon and Sarah at one of the tables. They were almost ready to leave, but, I think, sensed I needed company. I had a talk with them and ate a little, and then Jon tactfully left Sarah and I together. She probably doesn't remember the discussion as anything earthshaking, I was feeling in a little turmoil after my experience with the persistent and intimidating beggar. It complicated those feelings of discontent and lack of interest in the Dhamma and Abhidhamma that I had brought with me to India. I spoke of every single thing that had been contributing to my losing interest in the Dhamma in the past few months, problems with expectations of others, with teachers, with wanting to feel settled and confident, and wanting to know that understanding was growing. I only realised at this time that I had invested so much emotionally in the trip - it was to be the Cure, I was to be Refreshed and Reinvigorated, gain Understanding, and only have contented fulfilled feelings. It hadn't happened. I was with Dhamma friends, I was in India, I'd been to the Bodhi Tree briefly, and I felt increasingly disoriented, tired and irritable. I wasn't the kindly or even equanimous person I imagined myself to be. I felt sad at seeing the beggars, and upset that I couldn't help them, and disturbed at their unceasing persistance. (Whatever you do, don't have eye contact - so said the guide). I was angry at the explanation of conditions and kamma/vipaka. It seemed a cop-out. I felt shaken that I couldn't see myself as a 'good' person, I couldn't control anything, fix anything or refer people somewhere to someone who would fix things, and .. they.. wouldn't.. go.. away, and .. they .. wouldn't ... be .. quiet. What was the Indian Government doing anyway? what was the Bihar State doing? what were wealthy Indians or Hindus or even, for goodness sake, God doing? (How did He pop up again after all these years?) There was a slight feeling of rising panic. What was the problem and who owns it? I felt more confused and powerless than I had ever been, I couldn't think of what the Buddha's teachings would indicate in this muddle I was in. I felt like the village idiot - surely I should be calmer and more insightful after four or five years study and practice? I was semi-seriously thinking about going home to Australia. Except I didn't know how to do it, and didn't immediately have the energy. I actually don't recall what Sarah said exactly. She listened, and listened, and wasn't judgmental and didn't tell me how I should feel, and never made me feel she wanted to be somewhere else - there was all the time in the world. She talked Dhamma when appropriate and related it to my feelings and experiences. Things began to feel not so out of the ordinary after all. I think there was mention of concepts, realities, the present moment, conditions, and how natural it all was. Feeling good, feeling bad - each moment can be seen for what it is, just this moment. But mainly conversation came back to Attachment, how it blanketed everything in gross and subtle ways. A reminder of Achan Sujin's description of Attachment (lobha) as 'the Teacher that will not leave the Student'. This was the beginning of feeling better, but more importantly, that was the beginning of interest growing in the Dhamma again. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Sarah, > > I hope you are getting over your cough by now, and that Jon wasn't > too exhausted by going straight back to work. > It wasn't the smells of India that remained - I think Azita and I > are in need of a little therapy - we thought Bangkok smelled > wonderful and was in a pristine condition after leaving Bihar. :-) > > I'm going through my trip diary at the moment and am wishing I > hadn't written it up in bed, in pencil, last thing at night - I > should know I'm almost incoherent by then! But if I find anything > that may be of interest, I'll post it. I tend to record the most > unimportant things. e.g. I had two pages about my experience on the > first day with a persistent young male beggar who cycled from site > to site and was always waiting for me when the bus pulled up. He > kept following me around and repeating, in front of others, about > how I had been 'so nice to him the night before' and 'what had he > done wrong that I was now ignoring him'. It did sound a little > odd. :-( I can only assume that I must have said 'thank you' on > the first night at the airport, if he was one of the luggage > handlers. I was almost ready to desert and return to Oz until > Shakti, with her wider experience of India, firmly sorted him out. > However, he did state in an intimidating way that I would be born > deaf and dumb in the next life. Can't think of the dhamma focus > here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa go > and metta rise. > But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott 38025 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 1:37am Subject: Khanti is viriya (was Re: [dsg] India reflections) Hi Jon, and all Welcome back, Jon. I enjoyed reading your post with its helpful reminders. I'll just take up one point and trust that others will bring up different points >khanti (patience) is the mental factor viriya (energy, effort) about which >there is so much said on this list. When I heard this I was reminded that >effort has 4 aspects (described as the 4 padhaanas) including the >forbearing from akusala that has not arisen and the non-persisting of >akusala that has risen, and I see a connection here. This is very interesting to me because I am keen on both the padhanas and the Perfections. This afternoon, I read the AN IV 14 description of the padhaana of abandoning akusala that has arisen: "There is a the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen (in him.) He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence...." Same for ill-will, etc. I have always wondered about the rather muscular language used in this translation. (And I guess in the original as well.) I assume that there is a progression from "does not acquiesce" to "wipes it out of existence" depending on the accumulations of the monk in question, or the degree of the akusala, or something. It seems to me that it would be preferable to be patient with the akusala, see it for what it is (not-self) and let it fall away on its own, as all cittas do. Be patient, but still having energy to investigate it without acquiescing to it, without welcoming it. Patient, energetic investigation of the dhamma involved. Patience not to flee from akusala into more akusala (For example, not fleeing from an unpleasant situation by escaping into fantasies about pleasures to come.) Patiently examining the akusala dhammas with right energy, seeing them as annica, anatta and dukkha to the degree that we are capable of. And then if they persist, there would be need for a more rigorous approach. A less patient approach. I have trouble seeing "wipes it out of existence" as patience! Interesting. Does anyone else have thoughts on "khanti is viriya?" Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: "dsg" Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: [dsg] India reflections > > Hello again, All > > As with previous visits, the India trip was both a fascinating experience > and an invaluable dhamma session. > > On the conventional level, the country certainly makes a big impact on the > senses, and one comes away with many vivid, almost overwhelming, memories. > Our group were all fun and easy to travel with, and I enjoyed the company > of other DSG-ers and dhammas friends from Thailand and elsewhere. > > As regards the teachings, I learnt some bits and pieces of information > that were new to me or that I had heard but forgotten about, such as that > khanti (patience) is the mental factor viriya (energy, effort) about which > there is so much said on this list. When I heard this I was reminded that > effort has 4 aspects (described as the 4 padhaanas) including the > forbearing from akusala that has not arisen and the non-persisting of > akusala that has risen, and I see a connection here. > > Most of all, however, I valued the many useful reminders and reflection > that occurred during the trip. This is the benefit that comes from being > with good Dhamma friends. There is nothing particularly new in what I > have in mind here, just the 'usual suspects' I suppose you could say, but > I will mention some points anyway- > > - The need for, and value of, repeated listening to useful reminders > about the basics such as nama and rupa, seeing and visible object, > not-self, etc, and how just these are the present moment and the present > moment is nothing more than just these. > - The importance of awareness (at whatever weak or incipient level) of a > presently arising dhamma, and the relative unimportance of the > conventional 'situation' or the nature of the accompanying mindstate (and > how trying to deal with the 'situation' misses the point of the Buddha's > teaching). > - The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how > infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something that > is not, and cannot be, right understanding). > - The conditioned nature ('natural' arising) of all dhammas including in > particular sati/panna (and accordingly why selecting an object for > awareness to be aware of will mean that what arises cannot be awareness of > a dhamma). > - The relative unimportance of knowing whether the present mindstate is > kusala or akusala. I know this is a very controversial point, but I can > assure you it's well worth considering. To begin with, it's inevitable > that there will be more kusala than akusala in our lives; secondly, what > has arisen has arisen and has in fact fallen away again already; and most > importantly, this kind of knowledge is not insight into the true nature of > a presently arising dhamma. > - The importance of remembering that the reason we study and discuss the > dhamma is for the better understanding of presently arising dhammas, and > for detachment from those dhammas (and not for any other reason). > - The bearing in mind that our deeply ingrained craving for further > becoming is ultimately a craving for just more of what is being > experienced through the different sense-doors right now and for the > feelings that arise on account of those experiences. > - The value of confidence in the gradual accrual over a long period of > all kinds of kusala and especially of panna, and of confidence in a moment > of kusala as the best thing that could ever happen to a person (and the > need for patience to accept that that's the way it is). > > In short, everything the aspiring practitioner needs to know!! ;-)) > > So it was a great trip. But it's always good to be 'home' again. Looking > forward to taking part in the discussions again, which I found myself > improperly equipped to do in India, despite having loads electronic stuff > with me (some advice for anyone thinking of travelling around India: an > old-fashioned floppy disk and drive is still much more useful for swapping > data between your laptop and a local computer than a USB key drive!). > > Cheers > Jon 38026 From: Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi, Sukin In a message dated 11/5/04 11:42:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >>I was b > Yes, good reminders. Every experience can be natural decisive support > condition for akusala for most of us. There is not only the possibility of > clinging, but also mana, dosa and almost any other akusala. And of > course direct experience of any of these is worth more than any amount > of theory gathered. > However we must still differentiate between Right and Wrong view on > the intellectual level. There may be clinging to a position and feeling > aversion to opposing views expressed. And there can even be `doubt' > with regard to one's position immediately following that. But if indeed > one's position is associated with right view, then at least at that moment > there is no clinging, but instead a degree of detachment, I think. > > So we do have to look out for akusala at any given moment, but we > should not have an attitude toward Right View in a way that in our > eagerness to `not cling' to anything at all, we end up throwing the baby > out with the bath-water. What do you think? > :-) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm certainly not one to throw out babies! (Hey, and even bath water is good in the desert! ;-) Yes, distinguishing right from wrong view is very important. We must be wary, of course, at how easily our distinguishing capacity is influenced by our desires and inclinations even without our awareness of that influence. There are many things we cling to, and we "mind people" include views and theories prominently among the things we cling to most tightly. I think that part of what constitutes genuine wisdom is being able to see when we are clinging, for when we don't even realize we are holding tight, there is little chance of our letting go. Relinquishment is, I believe, the keystone of patapatti. --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Sukin. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38027 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 5:35am Subject: India reflections -- A correction Hi again I'd like to correct a typo in my earlier post. The 3rd sentence in the paragraph below should of course read: "To begin with, it's inevitable that there will be more *akusala* than *kusala* in our lives" Thanks Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > - The relative unimportance of knowing whether the present mindstate is > kusala or akusala. I know this is a very controversial point, but I can > assure you it's well worth considering. To begin with, it's inevitable > that there will be more kusala than akusala in our lives; secondly, what > has arisen has arisen and has in fact fallen away again already; and > most > importantly, this kind of knowledge is not insight into the true nature > of > a presently arising dhamma. 38028 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 6:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 107 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 25 constructive ministers of the king citta. Among them 19 cetasikas are universal to all sobhana cittas. These 19 cetasiks is led by saddha. If the followers counted there will be 18 cetasikas. These 18 cetasikas can be grouped into two. But as saddha is the leader, it involves in both groups and so there will be 2 groups of 10. In the first group ( army ) there are 10. General is saddha or faith or confidence. In this group, sati cetasika serves as a secretary. Actually all 19 cetasikas work together and they cannot be separated. This grouping is for easy remembrance. Sati is a cetasika and it arises with any of sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. If there is no sati cetasika in a citta, then that citta is not a beautiful consciousness including smiling mind of arahats. Sati is so important that The Buddha left a message as His last word. It is sati cetasika. Sati is mindfulness. Sati advises the king citta to remember things to do and because of his advice the king citta is always mindful whenever sati is along with him. Whenever there is sati cetasika, that citta is a beautiful consciousness and that state of mind is not akusala at least. There are some similar cetasikas that sati may be confused with. They are manasikara cetasika, ekaggata cetasika, sanna cetasika. These three do have their own character. But when translations were done, people of translated language may take wrongly on these cetasika. An example is attention or manasikara. This cetasika arises with any citta. It arises with akusala cittas, with kusala cittas, with abyakata cittas like vipaka cittas and kiriya cittas. But sati can never arise in akusala cittas. Once I found a wrong message at a site. It was written as miccha- sati. There is no MICCHA-SATI at all. There is no sati in akusala cittas. Sati will never do miccha dhamma or wrong things. So it is completely and entirely wrong to say miccha- sati. This shows that cetasikas are not fully understood by many people. The problem is translation. When sati is translated as mindfulness, this word 'mindfulness' may work in case of a thief mindfully unlocks the door and mindfully steals all he wants inside of the house. But this mindfulness is not sati. This is just an area where simple English does not work in Dhamma. Thieves may be mindful. But they when mindful are not developing sati cetasika. They may be mindful because they are attentive to what they should do not to be caught. This mindfulness is actually done by manasikara cetasika which is a universal cetasika and can arise with akusala cittas like when stealing. Sati is like memory. Someone who never forgets what he has been doing is said to have a good memory. This sort of memory always remind him not to forget things. But there are people who translate sanna cetasika as memory and this may confuse with sati. Sanna cetasika on the other hand always arises with each of cittas whatever akusala or kusala or abyakata like vipaka or kiriya cittas. But sati does not arise with each and every citta. This is quite different. But whenever sati cetasika arises, there also arise sanna cetasika. So these two cetasika may also be confused. There is another cetasika that may be confused with sati cetasika. It is ekaggata cetasika or one-pointedness. Characterwise, they are different. You may not think that these two may not be confused. When an acrobat is performing a special act, he has to be mindful not to fall over or not to mishap. Is he developing kusala? He may not be. Actually he has a good concentration at his muscles and balance. Because of this concentration or ekaggata, acrobats may be thought as mindful. In simple English, yes they are mindful. But they do not have sati cetasika. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38029 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Sukin > The question is, "Is Dukkha applied only to the Khandhas when they > are clung to, or is it regardless of this?" Hi Sukin I think I did post this extract before in DSG. Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” As what you have mentioned, I have also met this question in dukkha is that some claim that since Arahants have no clinging anymore, there should not be anymore dukkha. To me, they are only partially right because there is dukkha in formations (which means birth). As long as there is birth, there is death, this would mean there is suffering. (this can be seen by the 1st NT where Buddha spoke birth as dukkha...) Even though there is no longer suffering in mental for the Arahants, there is suffering in physical attributes and suffering born in this formations as these are all attributed to kamma. The Dart Sutta always show the difference in suffering in mental and physical dukkha and its shows clearly that Arahant only suffer physical dukkha. Then another question creep in, is impermenance is painful or clinging is the one that is painful. So someone said that since Arahant has got rid of clinging, so impermenance is not painful any more. The answer is still painful because of the reason above, the physcial dukkha is still impermenance. Furthermore, even for Arahant they still experience their ageing and Final Death as mention in 1st NT. So the proper understanding of 4NT is very important and people always emphasis on the craving part, that is true due to the start of lobha mula citta of dependent origination as show in (AN III, 61). But not looking at the 1st NT, we may at times miss the salient point Buddha is making that there is suffering in formations as show in 1st NT whether we like it or not. Just my thoughts Ken O 38030 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 8:52am Subject: Page 49 & Page 50 on Patthana Dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, Another pages come here at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana49.html and www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana50.html Introduction is started at the page www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38031 From: Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta?/ TG Hi Christine Your correct in that the Buddha did not teach with a closed fist. However, he did teach Suttas at a level appropriate to the listeners. I would suspect that in the Buddha's time most of the teachings people heard, especially lay people, were delivered by monks. (This is just because there were a lot more monks and only one Buddha.) There was probably a general agreement on what a suitable level a teaching should be delivered to lay people; and that was probably mostly on the morality and generosity type issues. Anaathapindika, though an advanced lay person and well acquainted with monks, was still unfamiliar with the more advanced types of Suttas. This seems to contradict the suggestion by some in this group that the Suttas are some sort of a lower level teaching. (Interesting that the "Abhidhamma Pitaka type teaching" is not even known of or referenced in the Suttas while the Vinaya as well as Vedas and many other non-Buddhist teachings are referenced often.) At any rate, many if not most of the Suttas that we take for granted were probably meant for advanced monks. This might explain why we have to struggle so hard to figure out a Sutta: that an advanced monk/nun was enlightened instantly by hearing it once. Take care, TG In a message dated 11/5/2004 3:53:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Hello TG, all, Yes, I agree with you about different suttas being suitable for different people depending on their current level of understanding and need. I have just read the two suttas from the Majjhima Nikkaya that you mention. A lot to reflect on here. I wonder why Anaathapindika had never heard such a talk on the Dhamma before Sariputta spoke to him on his death bed? Weren't we told there was nothing kept in the closed fist of the Master? And having just seen the number of cows roaming free around India, it is easier to understand now how a few of the Bhikkhus, like Pukkusaati, were killed by them. MN 140 Dhaatu-vibhanga Sutta 'An Analysis of the Properties' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn140.html and MN 143 Anaathapindikovaada Sutta 'Instructions to Anaathapindika' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn143.html The Samyutta Nikaya Books 2-5 Auggh! So many suttas, so little time! :-) Thanks TG. metta and peace, Christine 38032 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 108 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the army( constructive ministers cetasikas ) of the king citta, the leader is saddha cetasika and the secretary is sati cetasika.There are two deputies. They are lieutenant-generals and one is the right wing and another is the left wing. The right winglt- general is hiri cetasika and the left wing lt-general is ottappa cetasika. Hiri and ottappa cetasikas always works together and they are close friends. they both have similar charactersin that they are both a kind of inhibition. They inhibit the king citta in doing bad things so that theking citta not doing bad things maynot have later bad effects or bad results. Hiri and ottappa cetasikas are known as lokapala dhamma. Loka here means kama loka which comprises human realms and deva realms, rupa loka which comprises all rupa brahma realms and arupa loka which comprises arupa brahma realms. And pala means ' to guard'. So hiri and ottappa guard the world. Hiri is a cetasika. It is shamefulness. When hiri arises, it advises the king citta not to do bad thing bearing that doing may lead to possible results which might be shameful. Because of hiri's advice, the king citta does not do bad thing. So inhibition of hiri is related to shamefulness to the possible outcome. Ottappa on the other hand is fearfulness and it is also a kind of inhibition. When it arises, it advises the king citta not to do bad things bearing that there are possible bad results which might be dreadful. So inhibition of ottappa is related to fear or dread. Hiri and ottappa works together and they are close friends. They can never be separated from each other. These 2 cetasikas always arise with each of all beautiful consciousness. They are lokapala dhamma as I said above. In a family, there are father, mother, son and daughter. Apart from between father and mother who are in realationship, there is no sexual relationship between the family members. These are between the father and the daughter, between the mother and the son,and between the son and the daughter. Hiri and ottappa that arise in them guard them as decent family members. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38033 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 109 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the navy ( constructive ministers cetasikas ) of the great king citta, the leader is saddha cetasika. The secretary of saddha cetasika who is admiral of this navy is tatramajjhattata cetasika. In this navy, there are two deputies for admiral saddha cetasika. They are rear-admiral alobha cetasika who is the right wing and rear- admiral adosa cetasika who is the left wing of the admiral saddha cetasika. Saddha is included in both of army and navy of the great king citta. This is for easy remembrance. Actually there is only one saddha cetasika and all 19 cetasikas work together. Saddha has been explained in the previous post. The secretary of the navy of the great king citta is tatramajjhattata cetasika. It is balance. Tatramajjhattata is like charioteer. It serves as an equalizer. When the charioteer is not working, then there will be no balancer who will control in balancing associated cetasikas. As soon as the charioteer stop working horses that draw the cart may deviate to one side or another depending on power in both sides. The charioteer balance them and make the journey successful. Tatramajjhattata cetasika always arises with each and every beautiful consciousness along with other 18 cetasikas among which saddha is the leader. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38034 From: Tyler Sims Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 3:56pm Subject: New to Group Hi, I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about a year now. I have read mostly Zen and Tibetan. I am currently reading "What the Buddha Taught" by Wapola Rahula. I decided that I should check out the Theravada school as well (online). I see terms like Pali Canon, Tipitaka, etc. Where should I start learning? Also, is Vispassana just another name for Theravada? How is Vispassana or meditation in Theravada different from following your breath in Zen? I don't have a local group to practice with so I pretty much do it on my own. Maybe one day I can get a group started here. For now, is there a way to practice? Reading? meditation? Day and night? etc. Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach(?). I don't much care for things I am not to sure about. The problem I have with some of the more esoteric stuff I have found on the Internet is that it requires you to "believe" something all over again. In reading Rahula's book, I like that it is about "seeing" and not "believing" or relying on mental concepts. Well all this to say hi and that i welcoome any guidance in my seeking. Tyler 38035 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 4:49pm Subject: Re: New to Group Hello Tyler, Welcome to DSG as a new member. You can start right now to see seeing rather than believing. Whenever you see, there is seeing. Whenever you hear, there is hearing. Whenever you get a smell, there is smelling. Whenever you taste something, there is tasting. Whenever you touch ( you are touched or you touch or you know when your body touch something ), there is touching. Whenever you think, there is thinking. First stop all theories right now and then try to be sharp all your sense-door. This is the very first step in pure Buddhism. That is just a part of moral conduct or siila. That means avoidance of doing immoral things or bad things or unwholesome things. If you observe your precept on 6 sense doors, you will soon see seeing that is understanding or realiztion or direct seeing of thinbgs as they are. In DSG there are a good sources of Theravada teachings. While you start observing your 6 sense doors, you can also learn from discussions and links at DSG. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Sims" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about a > year now. I have read mostly Zen and Tibetan. I am currently reading > "What the Buddha Taught" by Wapola Rahula. I decided that I should > check out the Theravada school as well (online). > > I see terms like Pali Canon, Tipitaka, etc. Where should I start > learning? Also, is Vispassana just another name for Theravada? How is > Vispassana or meditation in Theravada different from following your > breath in Zen? > > I don't have a local group to practice with so I pretty much do it on > my own. Maybe one day I can get a group started here. For now, is > there a way to practice? Reading? meditation? Day and night? etc. > > Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach (?). > I don't much care for things I am not to sure about. The problem I > have with some of the more esoteric stuff I have found on the Internet > is that it requires you to "believe" something all over again. > > In reading Rahula's book, I like that it is about "seeing" and not > "believing" or relying on mental concepts. > > Well all this to say hi and that i welcoome any guidance in my seeking. > > Tyler 38036 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 110 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the navy of the great king citta, there are 10 members cetasikas. The leader of that navy is admiral saddha cetasika. The secretary of the navy is tatramajjhattta cetasika. Admiral saddha has two great disciples. They are deputies to saddha cetasika. They are second to the leader saddha cetasika. They are the right wing and the left wing of the admiral saddha cetasika. The right wing is rear-admiral alobha cetasika and the left wing is rear- admiral adosa cetasika. Alobha cetasika and adosa cetasika are close frineds and they always arise together and work together. They are powerful mental factors in beautiful consciousness. They always arise with each and every sobhana citta. They also arise along with other universal sobhana cetasika including saddha cetasika. Alobha is a mental factor and when it arises this cetasika alobha advises the king citta to detach from sensuality. Alobha is non- attachment. Alobha is also known as dana. But it is odd to say dana cetasika. Alobha takes more general sense than dana. Because alobha cetasika also arises in cases when dana or offering is not being done. Adosa is a mental factor and he is a close friend of alobha cetasika. These two cetasikas always arise together and they are also accompanied by other universal sobhana cetasikas including saddha cetasika. Adosa is non-aversion. It is non-hatred. It is metta. When it arises itadvises the king citta to maintain loving kindness and to hold non-aversion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38037 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 5:24pm Subject: Page 51 on Patthana Dhamma about 6 pairs of cetasikas Dear Dhamma Friends, Another pages come here at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana51.html . The Introductory part ofthe whole writing is started on the ultimate realities without which patthana dhamma will notbe understood. These introductory part can be viewed at the page www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38038 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: New to Group Hello Tyler, Welcome to dsg. You have raised a few issues here, and I am only going to address one, at the moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Sims" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about a > year now. ....snip..... > Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach (?). Azita: It's my understanding that the Buddha taught about conventional realities and ultimate realities. That we worldlings live and believe in conventional realities eg. a self that was born and will die one day, world politics, our possessions etc. etc. However, in the ultimate sense, these things don't really exist and we can't see this bec. of much accummulated ignorance about the truth and much craving to these conventional realities. To cut thro these conventional realities to see the ultimate realities which are BTW, impermanent, not-self and therefore unsatisfactory, it requires a great deal of wisdom and understanding of these ultimate realities. Unfortunately, I now have to prepare to go to work, so cannot continue, but maybe I've given you some food for thought and I'm sure others here will answer you as well. > I don't much care for things I am not to sure about. The problem I > have with some of the more esoteric stuff I have found on the Internet > is that it requires you to "believe" something all over again. > > In reading Rahula's book, I like that it is about "seeing" and not > "believing" or relying on mental concepts. > > Well all this to say hi and that i welcoome any guidance in my seeking. > > Tyler Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38039 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Jon, And welcome back. When you wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: "dsg" Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 12:33 AM Subject: [dsg] India reflections "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something that is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." were you referring to sammaadi.t.thi in the sense exclusively either of satipa.t.thaana or of maggacitta with only paramattha dhammas as objects? Thanks, mike 38040 From: Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi, Tyler - Welcome to the group from another member! :-) In a message dated 11/6/04 7:19:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, tylersims@l... writes: > > Hi, > > I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about a > year now. I have read mostly Zen and Tibetan. I am currently reading > "What the Buddha Taught" by Wapola Rahula. I decided that I should > check out the Theravada school as well (online). > > I see terms like Pali Canon, Tipitaka, etc. Where should I start > learning? Also, is Vispassana just another name for Theravada? How is > Vispassana or meditation in Theravada different from following your > breath in Zen? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: One good place to begin to learn is with the incredibly rich web site http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html The so-called vipassana movement is an outgrowth of Theravada, but is not identical with it. It would not be completely wrong to consider it as a part of modern-day Theravada. Meditation on the breath, or with breath as an anchor for one's meditation, is a basic mode of Buddhist meditation that spans all Buddhist schools. ------------------------------------------------- > > I don't have a local group to practice with so I pretty much do it on > my own. Maybe one day I can get a group started here. For now, is > there a way to practice? Reading? meditation? Day and night? etc. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, reading, study, and contemplation; meditation - both formal sitting meditation and walking meditation, and also ongoing mindfulness of whatever arises at any time; and guarding the senses, i.e., applying ongoing mindfulness to detect wholesome and unwholesome inclinations as they arise, and acting accordingly. All this is Buddhist practice. BTW, where do you live? Perhaps there are some here who will have good suggestions of groups or centers or monasteries that will be of use to you in terms of study, guidance, and others to talk with and meditate with. ------------------------------------------------ > > Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach(?). > I don't much care for things I am not to sure about. The problem I > have with some of the more esoteric stuff I have found on the Internet > is that it requires you to "believe" something all over again. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The web site I mentioned before is a very good source. There are loads of books that could be recommended, and they will be, but for starters I'd go with that site. ----------------------------------------------- > > In reading Rahula's book, I like that it is about "seeing" and not > "believing" or relying on mental concepts. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That is basic to Theravada. However, one should study the fundamental teachings as well, as given by the Buddha. Practice without "theory" could easily go off in the wrong direction. I, myself, observe a balance of study and practice [I read a lot and engage in group discussions a lot, but I also have two one-hour sitting meditations every day and I engage in ongoing mindfulness as best I can], and I think that both are indispensable. --------------------------------------------------- > > Well all this to say hi and that i welcoome any guidance in my seeking. > > Tyler > ----------------------------------------- Howard: BTW, my signature line at the bottom is from the Mahayana tradition, not the Theravadin tradition, but what it expresses is fully consistent with Theravada. ===================== With metta (unconditional friendship), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38041 From: nori Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 8:06pm Subject: One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Hi all, I found this to be a valuable lesson. --- Anguttara Nikaya V.73 Dhamma-viharin Sutta (One Who Dwells in the Dhamma) Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?" "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma." "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma." "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma." "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma." "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma." "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." --- metta, nori 38042 From: Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 8:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi Tyler, Welcome to the group. A few thoughts on vipassana: vipassana is pali for insight. It is usually coupled with tranquility (samatha). One might say insight arises in an atmosphere of tranquility. As a practise insight amounts to recognizing in a simple straightforward way what is arising in present experience. The idea is that by simply observing what is happening insight will arise that this is impermanent, unsatisfactory, or not self and craving for and clinging to 'this' will fall away. All of our problems, dissatisfactions, and sufferings are a direct result of craving and clinging. It is said that insight is the only way to the end of craving and therefore suffering. Larry 38043 From: Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Hi, Nori - In a message dated 11/6/04 11:07:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi all, > > I found this to be a valuable lesson. > ========================== Indeed! This is wonderful, and I believe it should be heeded! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38044 From: Tyler Sims Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 6:11pm Subject: Re: New to Group Htoo Naing, Thanks for the guidance. I never looked at my senses as "doors" to the world. That really helps. You said 6 doors. (Taste, Touch, Sight, Sound, Smell, ?). What I am missing? Tyler -- - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Hello Tyler, > > Welcome to DSG as a new member. You can start right now to see seeing > rather than believing. > > Whenever you see, there is seeing. Whenever you hear, there is > hearing. Whenever you get a smell, there is smelling. Whenever you > taste something, there is tasting. Whenever you touch ( you are > touched or you touch or you know when your body touch something ), > there is touching. Whenever you think, there is thinking. > > First stop all theories right now and then try to be sharp all your > sense-door. This is the very first step in pure Buddhism. That is > just a part of moral conduct or siila. That means avoidance of doing > immoral things or bad things or unwholesome things. > > If you observe your precept on 6 sense doors, you will soon see > seeing that is understanding or realiztion or direct seeing of > thinbgs as they are. > > In DSG there are a good sources of Theravada teachings. While you > start observing your 6 sense doors, you can also learn from > discussions and links at DSG. 38045 From: Tyler Sims Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 6:22pm Subject: Re: New to Group I will need to think about the fact that we divide the world into two realities. What I hear you saying is that there is only one reality but we think there is two realities? I was more inclined to see all "thus" as reality and when we think that we run into problems. As in thinking that there is another world out there that we don't see. Tyler - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Tyler, > Welcome to dsg. > You have raised a few issues here, and I am only going to > address one, at the moment. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Sims" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about > a > > year now. ....snip..... > > > Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach > (?). > > Azita: It's my understanding that the Buddha taught about > conventional realities and ultimate realities. That we worldlings > live and believe in conventional realities eg. a self that was born > and will die one day, world politics, our possessions etc. etc. > However, in the ultimate sense, these things don't really exist > and we can't see this bec. of much accummulated ignorance about the > truth and much craving to these conventional realities. > To cut thro these conventional realities to see the ultimate > realities which are BTW, impermanent, not-self and therefore > unsatisfactory, it requires a great deal of wisdom and understanding > of these ultimate realities. > Unfortunately, I now have to prepare to go to work, so cannot > continue, but maybe I've given you some food for thought and I'm sure > others here will answer you as well. > 38046 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Hello Nori, Howard, all, Nori gives us the sutta Dhamma-viharin Sutta(One Who Dwells in the Dhamma)where the following line is repeated: "He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness". Bhikkhu Bodhi says this line is stressing tranquillity meditation. So .... does this mean those who do insight meditation only are not ones who dwell in the Dhamma? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38047 From: nori Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 11:27pm Subject: Re: One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Hi Christine, It is my opinion that the distinct divisions of "insight" meditation and "samatha/tranquility" meditation are ideas that developed much later in monastic communities, as if they were two seperate exercises or practices. Through (among other factors) seclusion, calm and tranquility, the faculty of awareness arises. ... and with awareness (thus discernment) comes insight. Even the word 'meditation' is a later development. 'Samadhi' does not necessarily equate to the word 'meditation'. While there is definitely a distinguishing practice of sitting "meditation", In Satipatthana the practice is always: -seclusion (literally, as well as in guarding the senses.) -calm/tranquility/samatha (not just relaxing the body, but by putting away hankering and dejection (craving and aversion) with regard to the world.) -sati/awareness (of body (incl. breath), Four Frames of reference, sometimes Ten perceptions, etc.) -samadhi, I think arising as a result of the above. I think the practice is of one type and is exercised not just while sitting but as much as possible. This is the way I interpret it. I know I left much out but just making a point. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Nori, Howard, all, > > Nori gives us the sutta Dhamma-viharin Sutta(One Who Dwells in the > Dhamma)where the following line is repeated: > "He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of > awareness". > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says this line is stressing tranquillity meditation. > > So .... does this mean those who do insight meditation only are not > ones who dwell in the Dhamma? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38048 From: nori Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 11:38pm Subject: Re: New to Group Hi Tyler, My advice to you is that do not have confidence in something and believe in something just because people talk about it or you have read it somewhere. I think your reality should be based solely on your experience and nothing else. While it is OK to consider what you read and what others say, rely on your own experience for the truth. Buddhism is the practice of learning how to see the truth for yourself. Buddhism does not insist, or recommend in any way, believing in their scripture without your own experience of it. What are words anyway; they are not reality. with metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Sims" wrote: > > I will need to think about the fact that we divide the world into two > realities. What I hear you saying is that there is only one reality > but we think there is two realities? I was more inclined to see all > "thus" as reality and when we think that we run into problems. As in > thinking that there is another world out there that we don't see. > > Tyler > > - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > > > Hello Tyler, > > Welcome to dsg. > > You have raised a few issues here, and I am only going to > > address one, at the moment. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Sims" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am new to your group here. I have been reading Buddhism for about > > a > > > year now. ....snip..... > > > > > Most of all what I am interested in is...what did the Buddha teach > > (?). > > > > Azita: It's my understanding that the Buddha taught about > > conventional realities and ultimate realities. That we worldlings > > live and believe in conventional realities eg. a self that was born > > and will die one day, world politics, our possessions etc. etc. > > However, in the ultimate sense, these things don't really exist > > and we can't see this bec. of much accummulated ignorance about the > > truth and much craving to these conventional realities. > > To cut thro these conventional realities to see the ultimate > > realities which are BTW, impermanent, not-self and therefore > > unsatisfactory, it requires a great deal of wisdom and understanding > > of these ultimate realities. > > Unfortunately, I now have to prepare to go to work, so cannot > > continue, but maybe I've given you some food for thought and I'm sure > > others here will answer you as well. > > 38049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: "Develop!" Hello Robert, Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true characteristic can be seen." (I included a link to your post in one of mine on Dhamma-List.) I understand that there is not complete free choice, and that outcomes are not pre-ordained. I understand that all things are conditioned. Intellectually I accept anatta, it seems perfectly logical. But day to day life shows that 'I' can make choices. There is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point in time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower. I have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set in place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And similarly with panna? Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to say 'Panna' knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't mention Me. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of > anatta > > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our > discussion > > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the > two > > truths. > ========== > This is a letter I wrote to Bruce and old member of dsg. > He wanted to know about develop and why Khun Sujin says 'develop > understanding' so often: > > You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except > nibbana > > are > > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then > > thinking one > > can develop anything seems like an exercise in > > micchaditthi.... > > _________________ > Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the > idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self > view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good > intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees > the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that > arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into > self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or > towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done. > > ____________________________ > > > > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for > > lack of a > > better f-word) "fate"? "" > __________________ > Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did > this that or the other nothing would make a thread of > difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing > would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not > get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the > Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions. > It is true that some are past conditions but there are also > present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism > and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who > can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way > and is neither. > When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a > condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on > the understanding of the listener. > I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we > have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me > when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized > how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became > frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop > them - but without wisdom. > It was because I didn't understand > anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be > quickly got rid of. That when desire arises it is by > conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it > demonstrates the truth of anatta. Now my focus > is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at > all doing anything. > This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima > Nikaya 148 > Chachakka Sutta > The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. > The six external media should be known. The six classes of > consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should > be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six > classes of CRAVING should be known." > > Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I > think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the > stage where all craving is gone but first it should be > understood. If we are afraid of it then it is not > possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can > be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens > of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true > characteristic can be seen. > > Later the sutta says: > > "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said. > In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms > there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three > is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is > feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is > craving." and it repeats for the other senses. > > "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. > And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would > follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it > wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the > self.' So the eye is not-self. ...... > If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. > And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would > follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it > wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the > self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, > consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is > not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. " > robertk 38050 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question ... which sutta?/ TG Hello TG, Thanks, this makes sense. I appreciate the clarification. One point though ... the feeling I've got from posts by the long time members of this List isn't that the suttas are some sort of lower level teaching. On the contrary - they've mostly indicated that the Abhidhamma should be the first thing one gains a basic understanding of. Next one should graduate to the suttas which are so densely packed with meaning, that they would be difficult to correctly understand except through the magnifying lens of the Abhidhamma. Yes, I did wonder why there wasn't more mention of the Abhidhamma in the suttas - though I usually liken it to the fact that the Abhidhamma is the basic building block, the primary school, of the Teachings - and the Suttas are the University level. Undergraduate courses don't continually mention nursery school lessons - they just assume this is known by everyone. i.e. the Bhikkhus. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > Your correct in that the Buddha did not teach with a closed fist. However, > he did teach Suttas at a level appropriate to the listeners. I would suspect > that in the Buddha's time most of the teachings people heard, especially lay > people, were delivered by monks. (This is just because there were a lot more > monks and only one Buddha.) There was probably a general agreement on what a > suitable level a teaching should be delivered to lay people; and that was > probably mostly on the morality and generosity type issues. > > Anaathapindika, though an advanced lay person and well acquainted with monks, > was still unfamiliar with the more advanced types of Suttas. This seems to > contradict the suggestion by some in this group that the Suttas are some sort > of a lower level teaching. (Interesting that the "Abhidhamma Pitaka type > teaching" is not even known of or referenced in the Suttas while the Vinaya as well > as Vedas and many other non-Buddhist teachings are referenced often.) At any > rate, many if not most of the Suttas that we take for granted were probably > meant for advanced monks. This might explain why we have to struggle so hard > to figure out a Sutta: that an advanced monk/nun was enlightened instantly by > hearing it once. > > Take care, > TG 38051 From: Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group Hi, Tyler - In a message dated 11/7/04 12:32:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, tylersims@l... writes: > I will need to think about the fact that we divide the world into two > realities. What I hear you saying is that there is only one reality > but we think there is two realities? I was more inclined to see all > "thus" as reality and when we think that we run into problems. As in > thinking that there is another world out there that we don't see. > > Tyler > ========================== If I may butt in: The ultimate vs conventional dichotomy is one which, in varying forms, exists throughout all schools of the Dhamma/Dharma. It is not so much one of internal world vs external world, though, in my opinion, that is part of it, but mostly a matter of what is directly knowable vs what is mind-constructed. I personally see the Dhamma in non-dualist terms that are not easily explainable, but others here see it somewhat differently from me. In any case, the topic of subject-object duality is not quite the same as the ultimate-conventional duality, which most of us are in agreement on, as is Buddhism in general. Our world of convention is a "world" created by a kind of mental imposition that provides a sort of shorthand manner of dealing with and communicating an (ultimately) indescribable reality. When we are "taken in" by our mental and verbal conventions, and take the merely conventional for actual, that is a fundamental form of ignorance. It is the practice of Dhamma that cultivates the mind and enables us to see through the realm of convention to reality, and that wisdom is freeing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38052 From: Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Hi, Christine, Nori, and all - In a message dated 11/7/04 12:42:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > > Hello Nori, Howard, all, > > Nori gives us the sutta Dhamma-viharin Sutta(One Who Dwells in the > Dhamma)where the following line is repeated: > "He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of > awareness". > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says this line is stressing tranquillity meditation. > > So .... does this mean those who do insight meditation only are not > ones who dwell in the Dhamma? > > metta and peace, > Christine =========================== I think that is an overly strict reading. All meditation involves tranquillity of awareness. I do think this sutta points to the need to include meditation as part of a complete practice, but it needn't be an exclusively samatha meditation. In fact, if one interprets this sutta in that fashion, it would imply that vipassana bhavana plays no role in Dhammic practice and that a complete practice consists only of study, thinking over, discussing, and samatha bhavana, a program ignoring investigation of dhammas and hardly distingishable from that of the Buddha's predecessors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38053 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Insight comes first. Description of the insight comes later. Speculation about a particular "insight" before that insight has been experienced is merely speculation. It is not some sort of "conceptual right view" that is a forerunner of sammaditthi. Buddha makes it clear that the one path is not a path of speculation and that speculation does not help. You write: "On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it's essential to hear the teachings and to to develop pariyatti or a 'right' conceptual understanding in the first place." Yes, Buddha himself said hearing Dhamma is essential, and others -- KenO, Mike, KenH, Howard, Bhikkhu Bodhi, and yourself -- say it's essential to develop a conceptual right view *first*, as if insight is somehow dependent upon the "proper" piecing together of various speculations! To make the case, they've cited MN 117 and Sammaditthi Sutta, neither of which supports a notion of "conceptual right view" (as we both agree). The hypothetical reader who disagrees might be thinking: "My goodness, Dan. How you twist words! How can you turn '"right" conceptual understanding' into 'speculation'? You are just a contrarian, intent on sowing discord." No, no. Not at all. If a disciple who is given to heavy dependence on logic and reasoning uses that logic and reason to hammer out a line of thought or a view that is not derived from his own insight but that *sounds* like the description of some other, wiser person's insight, that view is merely speculation because the theorizer does not know what the words that the wise person is using really refer to. Even when the intellect is strong, subtle, and clever enough that the words of the disciple exquisitely match those of the wise person, it is still mere speculation. When someone with no insight into the matter says, "Nama and rupa are distinct," what he is referring to is quite different from what the wise person means when uttering the exact same words. That person's conceptual understanding or view is called "wrong" because that view does not reflect sammaditthi at all. It is merely speculation. Such speculation is not a forerunner of sammaditthi. But you go on to argue, "Otherwise, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered to teach." I don't follow you, here, Sarah. Buddha's words help disciples develop a conceptual framework around their insights. This consolidation helps set the stage for deeper insight later. To someone with no insight, Buddha's words sound strange and are quickly dismissed and may even be ridiculed. To someone who's had a little insight, the words hold an allure; they strike a chord. The words ring true in the ears of someone with a taste of insight not because the words are masterpieces of logical reasoning, but because they reflect the disciple's prior experience. There is wonderment and joy because they now hear their insights expressed so beautifully. A deepening of the disciple's insight comes after consolidation of the shallower insights. There are many things in Buddha's teachings that sound strange to me, e.g., much of the talk about Nibbana, past lives, miracles, devas, etc. No amount of speculation or theorizing or conceptualizing about these things will improve my understanding of them at all. Until my insight into these things is deep enough that my conceptualizing about them becomes a struggle to describe my direct experience, I am merely speculating. And it doesn't help. On the other hand, when I first heard the four Noble Truths over 20 years ago, they really did sound like Noble Truths to me. Why is that? Surely not because earlier that morning I'd been thinking, "Hmmm... You know what? I think suffering is ubiquitous; suffering is caused by desire; elimination of desire leads to elimination of suffering; the way to elimate desire is by following the eightfold path." Instead, I'd had previous insight into the 4NT. Granted, the insight was shallow. It was certainly not deep enough to be able to express clearly in words-- not even deep enough to even consider expressing it in words. However, it was at least deep enough for the Buddha's words to ring true in my ears. Back to an earlier comment of mine: D: Of course, it can be helpful to listen to others' descriptions of what reality looks like when it is understood directly, as it is. If we hear something that is verified by our experience and "strikes a chord", then the description can serve to help solidify our understanding. However, conceptual models about anything beyond our understanding we should just set aside rather than spin off into thinking, doubting, or blindly accepting. > .... > S:Agreed. I don't think there has been any other suggestion here. I think the idea of "conceptual right view" as a forerunner of sammaditthi is indeed another suggestion -- the suggestions that conceptual models beyond our understanding should not be set aside but should capture our thoughts and attention, the notion being that our theorizing will bloom into real understanding somehow as our conceptual understanding becomes more and more refined. This can only spin us off into thinking, doubting, or blindly accepting. Metta, Dan 38054 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Conceptual right view" is 'uncontestable' [Howard] Dear Howard, You write: > I agree with you about item 3. :-) Great! Now, isn't 3 just putting 4-6 into the proper context? I.e., 3 specifically sets the stage for thinking about 4-6 in terms of sammaditthi rather than "conventional right view". Dan P.S. 4-8 are discussed in your post #37509. > In a message dated 10/19/04 2:25:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > I contest your uncontestable take on the Sammaditthi sutta as dealing > > with "conceptual right view" (and "supramundane right view") rather > > than "mundane right view" (and "supramundane right view"). For > > example, you take section 3 as uncontestably conceptual rather than > > direct: "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, > > the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the > > wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is > > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived > > at this true Dhamma." Isn't the disciple with 'perfect confidence in > > the Dhamma' and the one who 'has arrived at this true Dhamma' > > referring to the Noble disciples, sotapanna through arahant? Surely > > you can't mean that intellectual acceptance of a conceptual > > formulation of the unwholesome, etc. is what defines enlightenment. > > Do you mean that 'perfect confidence in the Dhamma' and arriving 'at > > this true Dhamma' refer to intellectual acceptance of Buddha's > > teachings rather than direct understanding at deep levels? > > > > I see that you also refer to paragraphs 1, 2, 4, and 6 as > > uncontestably conceptual, but let's start with 3. > > > > Metta, > > > > Dan 38055 From: Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Conceptual right view" is 'uncontestable' [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 11/7/04 10:32:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > You write: > >I agree with you about item 3. :-) > > Great! Now, isn't 3 just putting 4-6 into the proper context? I.e., 3 > specifically sets the stage for thinking about 4-6 in terms of > sammaditthi rather than "conventional right view". > > Dan > ====================== Please forgive me in advance for not getting back to you on this. At least at the moment, I find myself resistant to going back and looking this business over. I haven't been feeling so hot the last few days - a bit tired and "not quite right", and I'm just going to let this pass, at least for the time being. My apologies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38056 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 8:08am Subject: Re: India reflections Dear Jon, You write of the important reminders discussed in India: "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something that is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." Bingo! Dan 38057 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 8:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 111 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 25 sobhana cetasikas, 19 cetasikas are called universal sobhana cetasikas or sobhana citta sadharana cetasikas. Because these 19 cetasikas always arise with each and every of sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. Among 19 cetasikas, saddha cetasika is like the leader. For easy remembrance or memory, I divide 19 cetasikas into 2 groups and repeat saddha cetasika as it is like the leader. Two groups are an army of the king citta and a navy of the king citta. In the army there are 10 cetasikas. The leader is saddha cetasika. 1. saddha cetasika ( general ) the leader 2. sati cetasika ( secretary ) 3. hiri cetasika (lieutinent-general ) the right wing 4. ottappa cetasika (lieutinent-general ) the left wing 5. cittapassaddhi cetasika } 6. cittalahuta cetasika } 7. cittamuduta cetasika } 8. cittakammannata cetasika } 9. cittapagunnata cetasika } 10.cittujjukata cetasika } 6 followers / 6 soldiers In the navy there are 10 cetasikas. The leader is saddha cetasika. 1. saddha cetasika ( admiral ) the leader 2. tatramajjhattata cetasika ( secretary ) 3. alobha cetasika ( rear-admiral ) the right wing 4. adosa cetasika ( rear-admiral ) the left wing 5. kayapassaddhi cetasika } 6. kayalahuta cetasika } 7. kayamuduta cetasika } 8. kayakammannata cetasika } 9. kayapagunnata cetasika } 10.kayujjukata cetasika } 6 followers Saddha, sati, hiri, ottappa, tatramajjhattata, alobha, and adosa altogether 7 cetasikas have been explained in the previous posts. In this post 6 followers of both groups army and navy altogether 12 cetasikas will be discussed together. There are 6 pairs of cetasikas that always arise in pair and in common with other universal sobhana cetasikas. When I mentioned them in two groups as an army and a navy of the king citta, 6 cetasikas that is from the side of citta-related cetasikas are included in the army of the king citta. other 6 cetasikas are included in the navy of the king citta. But actually there are no army, no navy but they all work together and arise at the same time. These 6 pairs or 12 cetasikas are a) cittapassaddhi and kayapassaddhi b) cittalahuta and kayalahuta c) cittamuduta and kayamuduta d) cittakammannata and kayakammannata e) cittapagunnata and kayapagunnata f) cittujjukata and kayujjukata a) cittapassaddhi and kayapassaddhi Cittapassaddhi is a cetasika. Cittapassaddhi is made up of citta and passaddhi. Citta is consciousness and passaddhi means calmness, tranquility, serenity. When this cetasika arises, the king citta is advised to be calm, to be cool, be tranquil. When you do offering like charity work, you may sense that there is some hints of tranquility in your mind. This is because of cittapassaddhi. This cetasika makes citta peaceful and tranquil. Kayapassaddhi is very similar to cittapassaddhi and it is very difficult to differentiate between these two, let alone trying to separate them out which again is totally impossible. But kayapassaddhi by its name comprises two Pali words. They are 'kaya' and 'passaddhi'. Kaya here means combination of cetasikas or aggregate of cetasikas or a body of cetasikas and passaddhi means 'tranquility' 'calmness'. As citta becomes tranquil because of cittapassaddhi, associated cetasikas are also become tranquil because of kayapassaddhi cetasika. These two cetasikas are twins brothers. b) cittalahuta and kayalahuta Cittalahuta is a cetasika and when it arises this cetasika advises the king citta to be quick, reactive, and light. Cittalahuta is buoyancy of citta. Because of this cetasika, citta becomes lighter than akusala cittas or ahetuka vipaka cittas or ahetuka kiriya cittas where all of these do not have cittalahuta as their accompanying cetasika. This is also like cittapassaddhi, arises when we do wholesome things like offering or dana, constructing moral conduct or sila, or cultivating mental wholesomeness or bhavana. Kayalahuta is twin-brother of cittalahuta. When cittalahuta works, citta becomes lighter while kayalahuta works, it causes cetasikas all become lighter. Kayalahuta is buoyancy of associated cetasikas. It is lightness of cetasikas. Cittalahuta and kayalahuta cetasikas always arise together and they work together. They cannot be separated out. And they cannot arise singly without other twin-brother. These 2 cetasikas also arise in common with other 5 pairs of cetasikas and along with universal sobha cetasikas including the leader saddha cetasika. c) cittamuduta and kayamuduta Cittamuduta is softness of citta. It is a cetasika. It is plasticity. It is pliability. It is resiliency. It is flexibility. It is impressibility. Cittamuduta easily moulds the king citta to becomes polite, soft, plastic, flexible. In the presence of cittamuduta the king citta is like a candle which is close to fire or heat and it can be moulded into any form. Kayamuduta is twin-brother of cittamuduta and it is softness of cetasikas or plasticity of cetasikas. Cetasikas all become flexible in the presence of this cetasika kayamuduta. These two twin-brothers work together in a citta and they also arise in common with other 5 pairs of cetasika and other universal sobhana cetasikas. d) cittakammannata and kayakammannata Cittakammannata is a cetasika. It is workableness. It is adaptability. It is readiness to respond or to work. When a sobhana citta arises, there also arises a cetasika called cittakammannata and this cetasika advises the king citta to be ready to work or to be ready to respond. This is a sort of alertness. It is workableness. Kayakammannata is twin-brother of cittakammannata cetasika. Kayakammannata is workableness of cetasikas.It is adapability of cetasikas. It is readiness of cetasikas. These two twin-brothers always arise together in common with other 5 pairs and other universal sobhana cetasikas. These two cetasikas are quick-responders or fast-responders. e) cittapagunnata and kayapagunnata Cittapagunnata is a cetasika and it advises the king citta to be familiar with the object. It is proficiency of citta. It is power of experience. When it arises, cittapagunnata works as proficient worker and advises the king citta in work to be proficient. Kayapagunnata is twin-brother of cittapagunnata cetasika. It is proficiency of cetasikas. It is familiarness of the associated cetasikas. These two twin-brothers also arises together and they arise with other 5 pairs and other universal sobhana cetasikas. f) cittujjukata and kayujjukata Cittujjukata is uprightness of citta. It is rectitude of citta. When cittujjukata cetasika arises, it advises the king citta and citta becomes upright and takes rectitude and behaves in a straight way. Citta in the presence of cittujjukata will not lie anything at all. It is uprightness of citta. Kayujjukata is twin-brother of cittujjukata and it is uprightness of associated cetasikas. It is rectitude of cetasikas. When it arises, it causes associated cetasikas to behave in a straight way. Again these two twin-brothers always arise together and they are also accompanied by other 5 pairs and other universal sobhana cetasikas including saddha cetasika. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38058 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 9:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 112 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After discussion on 19 cetasikas called universal sobhana cetasikas or sobhana citta sadharana cetasikas, there left 6 more sobhana cetasikas or beautiful cetasikas. They are 3 virati cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas and 1 pannindriya cetasika. There are 3 virati cetasikas. Virati means 'avoidance'. It is particular avoidance when there are conditions that may lead to committing things which should be avoided. They are 1. kaya ducarita virati or samma-kammanta, 2. vaci ducarita virati or samma-vaca, and 3. dujiva virati or samma-ajiva. These cetasikas are also kind of inhibitions. But unlike hiri and ottappa, they are directed at the particular action rather than contemplating on possible future effects or results. When contemplate on the act which is kaya ducarita, this avoidance is samma-kammanta. If the act is vaci ducarita, then the cetasika becomes samma-vaca and when it is avoidance of dujiva act then it is samma-ajiva cetasika. With the exception of Noble Eightfold Path at the time of magga and phala, these three cetasikas never arise together and not even two cetasikas together. There are another 2 cetasikas which is called appamanna cetasikas. They are called appamanna because these two cetasikas take the objects which are limitless or boundless. These two cetasikas are karuna cetasika and mudita cetasika. Both cetasikas are directed to the object which are pannatti that is satta pannatti. This means that they take the objects which are not paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities. There are 2 separate cetasikas on satta pannatti. This is because the characters of the objects differ each other. While karuna takes the object of satta pannatti who are in defective conditions, mudita takes the object of sattas pannatti who are in prosperous conditions. There left a cetasika called pannindriya cetasika. This is the most important cetasika. Because this cetasika is the only cetasika that will lead us to attainment of arahatta magga nana. Without this cetasika, however good other cetasikas are, arahatta magga nana will never be attained. Pannindriya cetasika or panna is a cetasika. It is constructive minister of the king citta. But pannindriya cetasika itself is not a citta. It advises the king citta to see real things. It throws a good light on things. Panna casts a bright light on dhamma. Panna is the most powerful cetasika among other cetasikas. Panna cetasika serves at different thana or places of Bodhipakkhiya dhammas like iddhipada dhamma or base of success, bala dhamma or strength of power, indriya dhamma or faculties, bojjhanga dhamma or factor of enlightenment, and magga dhamma or path factor. Panna also involves as adipati dhamma among 4 adipati dhammas. Panna is also known as vijja. Sometimes it is also known as nana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38059 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan and Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" > Dear Sarah, > Insight comes first. Dan, thanks for this unequivocal statement of your view of this matter. > Description of the insight comes later. If at all, I suppose--I don't think anyone has been promoting 'description of insight', though. > Speculation about a particular "insight" before that insight has been > experienced is merely speculation. Obviously, speculation about any subject is 'merely speculation'. I think we all understand this and I don't believe anyone here is promoting speculation as insight. > It is not some sort of "conceptual > right view" that is a forerunner of sammaditthi. Whether or not there is a 'some sort of' sammaadi.t.thi that can take a concept as an object is, for me, still an open question and one specifically of definition of the word 'sammaadi.t.thi'. We're all aware, I think, that sammaadi.t.thi can take paramattha dhammas as objects and that the latter exclusively are the bases of vipassanaa. I'm inclined to think that right view might view concept as concept as opposed to reality, for example--but this may be misuse of the term 'sammaadi.t.thi' where pa~n~naa in some other form might be more appropriate. I do feel fairly confident that pa~n~naa can take concepts--such as beings, the teachings, views and so on--as objects. > Buddha makes it > clear that the one path is not a path of speculation and that > speculation does not help. No one here has argued the contrary, to my knowledge. In my reading of the Dhammavinaya (and a little abhidhamma) texts, I've never known the Buddha to suggest that hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma 'does not help'--on the contrary. Of course this kind of advice is easily found in Mayahana and Theosophical literature. For example, Mumon's "Stop, stop. Do not speak. The ultimate truth is not even to think", is a fine example of the Zen idea that samadhi is enlightenment or that enlightenment is simply the stopping of conceptual, discriminating thought (cf. Hakuin's 'Song of Samadhi'). Difficult to support this view from the Paali Tipitaka, though, I think, without considerable manipulation. Or are we back to the "Mind is Pure" thread? > You write: "On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it's > essential to hear the teachings and to to develop pariyatti or > a 'right' conceptual understanding in the first place." > > Yes, Buddha himself said hearing Dhamma is essential, and others -- > KenO, Mike, KenH, Howard, Bhikkhu Bodhi, and yourself -- say it's > essential to develop a conceptual right view *first*, as if insight > is somehow dependent upon the "proper" piecing together of various > speculations! I don't believe that any of us has made the argument you present here, or would--I certainly wouldn't. > To make the case, they've cited MN 117 and Sammaditthi > Sutta, neither of which supports a notion of "conceptual right view" > (as we both agree). I believe I've conceded this point before--if there is a sammaadi.t.thi that can take a concept as an object it doesn't seem to me to be that explained in the Sammaadi.t.thisutta. > The hypothetical reader who disagrees might be thinking: "My > goodness, Dan. How you twist words! How can you turn '"right" > conceptual understanding' into 'speculation'? You are just a > contrarian, intent on sowing discord." Straw man number two... > No, no. Not at all. If a > disciple who is given to heavy dependence on logic and reasoning uses > that logic and reason to hammer out a line of thought or a view that > is not derived from his own insight but that *sounds* like the > description of some other, wiser person's insight, that view is > merely speculation because the theorizer does not know what the words > that the wise person is using really refer to. Even when the > intellect is strong, subtle, and clever enough that the words of the > disciple exquisitely match those of the wise person, it is still mere > speculation. I'm glad we agree that speculation is speculation, however strong, subtle or clever. > When someone with no insight into the matter says, "Nama > and rupa are distinct," what he is referring to is quite different > from what the wise person means when uttering the exact same words. > That person's conceptual understanding or view is called "wrong" > because that view does not reflect sammaditthi at all. It is merely > speculation. Such speculation is not a forerunner of sammaditthi. I'm also glad we agree that speculation is not the forerunner of sammaadi.t.thi or of anything else pertinent to Dhamma. > But you go on to argue, "Otherwise, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered > to teach." I don't follow you, here, Sarah. Buddha's words help > disciples develop a conceptual framework around their insights. This > consolidation helps set the stage for deeper insight later. An interesting speculation--can you support this from the texts? > To > someone with no insight, Buddha's words sound strange and are quickly > dismissed and may even be ridiculed. To someone who's had a little > insight, the words hold an allure; they strike a chord. The words > ring true in the ears of someone with a taste of insight not because > the words are masterpieces of logical reasoning, but because they > reflect the disciple's prior experience. There is wonderment and joy > because they now hear their insights expressed so beautifully. The Buddha's words (by my reading and hearing) were meant to have quite a variety of effects depending on (among other things) the ability of the audience to understand, the circumstances and so on. In many cases, they were meant to stimulate profound insight in the hearers, and they often did. The suttas offer a great many examples of people, lay and ordained, who attained the various paths immediately on hearing the Dhamma from the Buddha. To my knowledge, nowhere in the tipitaka is it suggested that these attainments were the result of insights that had occured BEFORE hearing the Dhamma--except in those cases in which hearing the Dhamma again resulted in attainments higher than previous attainments which had occured after hearing the Dhamma, I think. > A > deepening of the disciple's insight comes after consolidation of the > shallower insights. Sometimes. If you're suggesting that this is always the case, a supporting text would be helpful. There are numerous cases in the suttas of people attaining nibbaana on having heard the Dhamma once from the Buddha. If these are all examples of 'deepening of the disciple's insight...after consolidation of the shallower insights' then maybe the Buddha said so at some point--an example from the texts would be useful. > There are many things in Buddha's teachings that sound strange to me, > e.g., much of the talk about Nibbana, past lives, miracles, devas, > etc. No amount of speculation or theorizing or conceptualizing about > these things will improve my understanding of them at all. I don't think that anyone here has ever suggested that any 'amount of speculation or theorizing or conceptualizing' would do so. Certainly I haven't and wouldn't. > Until my > insight into these things is deep enough that my conceptualizing > about them becomes a struggle to describe my direct experience, I am > merely speculating. And it doesn't help. No one has suggested that it does. > On the other hand, when I first heard the four Noble Truths over 20 > years ago, they really did sound like Noble Truths to me. Why is > that? Surely not because earlier that morning I'd been > thinking, "Hmmm... You know what? I think suffering is ubiquitous; > suffering is caused by desire; elimination of desire leads to > elimination of suffering; the way to elimate desire is by following > the eightfold path." Instead, I'd had previous insight into the 4NT. I take it that your view is that insight prior to hearing the Dhamma is fairly commonplace, or at least not limited to paccekabuddhas. I wonder if you can support this idea from the Paali Tipitaka? If not, it seems like a curious omission to me. > Granted, the insight was shallow. It was certainly not deep enough to > be able to express clearly in words-- not even deep enough to even > consider expressing it in words. However, it was at least deep enough > for the Buddha's words to ring true in my ears. I think all of us have had the experience of having the Buddha's words 'ring true'--in some cases, there may have been moments of satipa.t.thaana occuring then--AFTER having read or heard the Buddha's words. Just speculation on my part, of course. > Back to an earlier comment of mine: > > D: Of course, it can be helpful to listen to others' descriptions > of what reality looks like when it is understood directly, as it is. > If we hear something that is verified by our experience and "strikes > a chord", then the description can serve to help solidify our > understanding. Conceptual or non-conceptual understanding? A description would be a concept, it seems to me... > However, conceptual models about anything beyond > our understanding we should just set aside rather than spin off into > thinking, doubting, or blindly accepting. >> .... >> S:Agreed. I don't think there has been any other suggestion here. > > I think the idea of "conceptual right view" as a forerunner of > sammaditthi is indeed another suggestion -- the suggestions that > conceptual models beyond our understanding should not be set aside > but should capture our thoughts and attention, the notion being that > our theorizing will bloom into real understanding somehow as our > conceptual understanding becomes more and more refined. This can only > spin us off into thinking, doubting, or blindly accepting. Once again, I don't think that any of us paraphrased above has made that argument--I certainly haven't. I find noteworthy in the context of this discussion your expression of your own views as facts and those of others (well, at least one other) as 'nonsense, to put it mildly'. The fact is that your views are yours and mine are mine. I hope we may both benefit from discussing them. mike 38060 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 113 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread have been brought to you as simple messages. The thread starts with different classifications of consciousness or cittas. Cittas or consciousness are what we ourselves can test on our own. After different classifications, 89 cittas were explained with several dhamma thread posts. If magga cittas arise in the vicinity of jhanas, these magga cittas can be counted as if they are jhana cittas. If so, there will be 121 cittas. Anyone at any time will be in a state of mind that are counted as 89 or 121 cittas. These 89 cittas are different because of their associated cetasikas. So it is essential that cetasikas are understood. So, after explanation on different cittas, counting on cetasikas and explanation of 52 different cetasikas are done. Even though cetasikas always arise with cittas and cannot be separated out from cittas, characterwise they are not cittas and they do have their own characteristics. So they become separate ultimate realities. Actually there have to be 89 cittas because of arising of these 52 different cetasikas. Both citta and cetasikas are nama dhamma. Apart from arupa brahma of 4 arupa brahma realms, all sattas in other 27 bhumis do have both nama and rupa. That is they all have namakkhandhas and rupakkhandha. Among these 27 bhumis, asannisatta bhumi dwellers do not have any namakkhandha. When in pancavokara bhumis, that is when there are all 5 khandhas, all namakkhandhas have to depend on rupakkhandhas. After namakkhandhas, rupakkhandhas are also ultimate realities. Rupa and their implications will be explained in the following posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38061 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan, and all > Insight comes first. Description of the insight comes later. > Speculation about a particular "insight" before that insight has been > experienced is merely speculation. It is not some sort of "conceptual > right view" that is a forerunner of sammaditthi. Buddha makes it > clear that the one path is not a path of speculation and that > speculation does not help. To be honest, I haven't followed this debate but I'll just throw in my opinion, for what it's worth. If there weren't "conceptual right view", what on earth are we doing in a Dhamma discussion group? Anything we say here is conceptual. Saying "insight comes first" is conceptual, and in your case reflects your conceptual right view. You had direct insight into the Four Noble Truths before reading about it, or listening to a talk about it? I guess that could be. Sounds like a very rare case though, and I would hope that the average person who isn't capable of that kind of insight would still be able to benefit from the Buddha's teaching in the way that she or he is capable of - by reflecting on it conceptually and gradually confirming that theoretical udnerstanding through experience, confirming it in a way that conditions more direct insight to come. That must be the way for most people, I'm sure. Of course we understand the Buddha's teaching in theory before we understand it directly. Fortunately, even the theoretical understanding is liberating, to a certain degree. That's the beauty of the Buddha's teaching. Good in the beginning (in theory) good in the middle (in practice) good in the end. I've always assumed (since reading about it, not having a sudden insight into it out of the blue) that that's what "good in the beginning" was referring to. I could very well be wrong, but if you tell me in what way it will be your conceptual right view correcting/straightening my conceptual right view - a very helpful exercise which could condition deeper insight to come, or not come, according to this and other conditions, for both of us. Thus is the value of Dhamma discussion. The straightening of conceptual understanding in a way that conditions insight. Very grateful for that. Sorry if I've misunderstood you as a result of not reading enough of the threads. Metta, Phil 38062 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group Hello Tyler Welcome to the group > I never looked at my senses as "doors" to the > world. That really helps. You said 6 doors. (Taste, Touch, Sight, > Sound, Smell, ?). What I am missing? Htoo will anwer this question much better than I can, but as a beginner it's helpful for me to try to answer. In Dhamma, the mind is is the sixth sense door. This is a very liberating concept. We are so used to considering the mind to be something that has mastery over the other senses in some way, and that's what's gets us into trouble. We get caught up in so much mental suffering because of our inability to see that there are mind door processes that are underway, beyond our control, before we know it. As soon as a sense door process (seeing, for example, and many other cittas that come just before it and just after it in rapid succession) falls away, a mind door process follows. For example, when you see a tree, it is not the seeing process that we have come to assume it is, but a mind door process that puts together visual information and leads to the understanding "I see a tree." The actual seeing is just seeing a visible object and colour and other paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities, though this is disputed by some people here as you'll soon discover) - it's only through the mind door that there is a "tree." We gain understanding of how rapidly mind door processes run away with things and create suffering through "papanca", (usually translated as "proliferation.) There is a great sutta in which the Buddha uses the simile of darts. When we have a painful physical sensation, it is the first dart, but we don't stop there. We dwell on it, even if momentarily, and the second dart, mental suffering, follows. I suppose truly enlightened people stop at the painful feeling through the body sense door (ie touch) without beeing hit by that second dart which follows through the mind door. For us, we will still have the mental suffering that follows through the mind door, but by begining to understand even only in theory the complexity and rapidness of the processes that are going on we begin to be led towards a liberation from belief in a self that can control these processes. We begin to gain detachment. Detachment is the whole point of the Buddha's teaching, in my opinion. I hope that's not incorrect .(please correct if it is, someone.) Metta, Phil 38063 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 6:41pm Subject: re: New to Group/Phil Hello Phil, and Tyler, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello Tyler > > Welcome to the group ...snip..... > For us, > we will still have the mental suffering that follows through the mind door, > but by begining to understand > even only in theory the complexity and rapidness of the processes that are > going on we begin to > be led towards a liberation from belief in a self that can control these > processes. > We begin to gain detachment. Detachment is the whole point of the Buddha's > teaching, in my opinion. > > I hope that's not incorrect .(please correct if it is, someone.) > > Metta, > Phil Azita: So enjoying your posts Phil. This 'detachment' aspect of Buddha's teaching was stressed again and again in India. If our practice does not lead to detachment then it can only lead to more attachment and keep us in Samsara for a very long long time. IMO, if we don't at first, have a conceptual idea of what ultimate realities are, then I can't see how an understanding of them can arise. I know at first, that is only an intellectual understanding but I believe it is a forerunner for right understanding to gradually develop to eventually 'see thro' the concepts and know the ultimate realities for what they are: anicca, anatta and dukkha. To me, this IS insight meditation. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38064 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Who Dwells in the Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nori - > > In a message dated 11/6/04 11:07:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nori_public@a... writes: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I found this to be a valuable lesson. > > > ========================== > Indeed! This is wonderful, and I believe it should be heeded! > > With metta, > Howard Dear Nori and Howard, I think you are trying to tell us something. :-) Namely, that some people at DSG are studying when they should be practising. That may be so, but I would like to point out that this sutta, like all suttas, should be read in the light of the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The culminating lines contain the exhortation, "Practise jhana," but it is not as simple as it sounds. You should be aware of the different meanings of "jhana." Please see the Useful posts file under the heading, "Jhana - Two Meanings." Kind regards, Ken H 38065 From: Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 9:07pm Subject: detachment Hi all, I was looking for something on detachment and the closest I could get was non-greed (alobha) and maybe non-hate (adosa): Vism.XIV,144 ...non-greed has the characteristic of the mind's lack of desire for an object, or it has the characteristic of non-adherence, like a water drop on a lotus leaf. Its function is not to lay hold, like a liberated bhikkhu. It is manifested as a state of not treating as a shelter, like that of a man who has fallen into filth. Non-hate has the characteristic of lack of savagery, or the characteristic of non-opposing, like a gentle friend. Its function is to remove annoyance, or its function is to remove fever, as sandalwood does. It is manifested as agreeableness, like the full moon. L: Any other candidates? Larry 38066 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] detachment Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was looking for something on detachment and the closest I could get > was non-greed (alobha) and maybe non-hate (adosa): > > Vism.XIV,144 ...non-greed has the characteristic of the mind's lack of > desire for an object, or it has the characteristic of non-adherence, > like a water drop on a lotus leaf. Its function is not to lay hold, like > a liberated bhikkhu. It is manifested as a state of not treating as a > shelter, like that of a man who has fallen into filth. …. S: I think this description of alobha or detachment is perfect. It might be obvious as some level that unwholesome states are ‘filth’, but in an absolute sense, so are all conditioned dhammas including sense experiences and objects and even wholesome qualities including wisdom and awareness. They are all dukkha and detachment has to develop towards whatever has arisen now by conditions. They have to be understood as namas and rupas, not ‘my’ wholesome or unwholesome states or experiences, otherwise detachment cannot be developed. In Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’, she quotes further and discusses the simile above in more detail in chapter 28, Non-attachment,(alobha): ***** “The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 127) gives the following definition of alobha: ‘… absence of greed (alobha) has the characteristic of the mind being free from cupidity for an object of thought, or of its being detached, like a drop of water on a lotus leaf. It has the function of not appropriating, like an emancipated monk, and the manifestation of detachment, like a man fallen into a foul place…’ The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 143) gives a similar definition (2. When there is a moment of non-attachment there cannot be attachment at the same time. Non-attachment has the characteristic of non-adherence like a water drop on a lotus leaf. The lotus grows in the water but it is not wetted by the water, that is its nature. A drop of water glides off a lotus leaf without affecting it. So it is with non-attachment, alobha. It is not attached to the object which is experienced, it is unaffected by it. That is the nature of non-attachment. Sometimes there are conditions for non-attachment, but shortly afterwards we are affected again by objects. Through right understanding one will become less affected. We read in the Sutta Nipåta (Khuddaka Nikåya, The Group of Discourses, vs. 811-813,)(3): ‘… Not being dependent upon anything, a sage holds nothing as being pleasant or unpleasant. Lamentation and avarice do not cling to him, as water does not cling to a (lotus-)leaf. Just as a drop of water does not cling to a (lotus-)leaf, as water does not cling to a lotus, so a sage does not cling to what is seen or heard or thought. ‘Therefore a purified one does not think that purity is by means of what is seen, heard, or thought, nor does he wish for purity by anything else (4). He is neither impassioned nor dispassioned.’ The function of non-attachment is, as we have seen, “not appropriating, like an emancipated monk”. A monk who has attained arahatship does not hold on to any object which presents itself; he is not enslaved but completely detached and thus free, emancipated. The Atthasåliní states that non-attachment has the manifestation of detachment like someone who has fallen into a foul place. Someone who falls in0074o a cesspool does not consider that a place of shelter where he could stay. He sees it as a danger, as something to be abhorred, and therefore he would get out of it as soon as possible. It is the same with non-attachment, it does not take refuge in what is actually a danger. “ *** Footnotes to the above: 2) See also Dhammasangaùi, §32. 3) I am using the P.T.S. translation by K.R. Norman. 4) By any other way than the Noble Eightfold Path, according to the commentary. See the Discourse Collection, Wheel Publication no. 82, B.P.S. Kandy. ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 38067 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 10:42pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 43-Feeling/Vedana (p) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Those who have cultivated rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna(1) have suppressed attachment to sense objects. They can be reborn in higher planes of existence, in rúpa-brahma-planes and in arúpabrahma planes and in these planes there are no conditions for dosa. However, when they are reborn in sensuous planes where there are conditions for dosa, dosa-múla-cittas accompanied by domanassa arise again so long as they have not been eradicated. We dislike domanassa and we would like to get rid of it, but we should understand that dosa can only be eradicated by the development of the wisdom which sees realities as they are. There is no other way. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 22. In the development of samatha, tranquil meditation, stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna can be attained by those who have accumulated the right conditions. Rúpa-jhåna, fine-material jhåna, is still dependent on materiality, whereas arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna, is not dependant on materiality and thus more tranquil. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38068 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 10:46pm Subject: Re: New to Group Hi Tyler, Welcome to DSG. You wrote: ----------------------------------------- > I have been reading Buddhism for about a > year now. I have read mostly Zen and Tibetan. I am currently reading > "What the Buddha Taught" by Wapola Rahula. I decided that I should > check out the Theravada school as well (online). > > I see terms like Pali Canon, Tipitaka, etc. Where should I start > learning? ----------------------------------------- Having studied Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, you already know the conventional versions of Buddhist practice. So why don't you look into the practice found in the ancient Theravada texts? It is totally different from the conventional versions and totally consistent with anatta. In this practice, there is no self; there are only dhammas - conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). So, put aside everything you have learnt about formal meditation and about mindfulness techniques. Put aside thoughts of controlling the flow of dhammas and, instead, allow right understanding to arise. Dhammas arise by conditions at any of the six doors but only at one door at a time. Any moment in which an arisen nama or rupa is directly experienced (by other conditioned namas) with right understanding, is a moment of right practice (satipatthana). For us beginners, satipatthana isn't likely to occur. If we barely know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to know them directly? Even so, by studying and contemplating the Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for satipatthana to develop. Kind regards, Ken H 38069 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > Insight comes first. Description of the insight comes later. .... S: Please would you explain what you mean by insight, especially any insight into the 4 Noble Truths which can occur before one has heard about them or read any description about realities as anatta. Would you suggest patipatti (or even pativedha) should precede pariyatti in the first place? I think that Mike in particular, but also Phil and Azita have addressed the other points in your letter to me very helpfully;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 38070 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner36-Feeli ng/Vedana (i) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================== > So, then what constitutes tonal discord is a matter of mind, not > ear, > and what is discordant to most folks is still not discordant in itself? > Discord depends on cognitional tendencies and not only on the nature of > hearing and > of sound per se? ..... S: This sounds right to me. Through the ear door, only sound is heard. Any idea of discord or comparison of sounds (however fleeting and not necessarily in words at all) is a result of thinking with sanna marking the various sounds heard. Of course, this doesn't mean the sounds heard for us are the same (or that any two sounds are ever the same for that matter). There will be many factors affecting what sound is heard at any given moment, including past kamma (as we discussed on the long topic of desirable/undesirable objects). Someone who has been mostly deaf since birth usually speaks in a strange way (to our ears) on account of the way sounds have been heard, for example. Whatever the sound heard, they can be the object of awareness right now, as can the thinking about it. The reality of sound is simply that which is heard as we both agree. When there's any clinging or trying to have awareness, then it shows the lack of detachment to what is conditioned again;-). I've appreciated your comments on this thread of vedana, Howard. Metta, Sarah p.s Sound as trouble (dukkha)? It's an interesting translation and better than stress which I think is most inaccurate. I prefer unsatisfactory/unsatisfactoriness or even worthless(ness) perhaps if we don't wish to use suffering or dukkha itself. ========================= 38071 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Phil Hi Phil (& Tyler), You wrote an excellent letter to Tyler, I thought. Btw, Tyler, welcome from me too - I look forward to more of your reflections and discussions with all the members who've written to you so far. You may also like to look at some Useful Posts from the archives, scroll down to 'New to the List....' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts --- plnao wrote: > Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says > that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that > is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's > way > through. .... S: I think the Buddha says we may well be baffled or perplexed, meaning this is natural (but not a state to be developed;-)). .... >I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part > and > parcel > of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down > a bit on a difficult point. More middle way. .... S: Yes, I like your stress on this. .... > At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this - > the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali term for > it, > I think. > Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find > it > now. .... S: It doesn't ring a bell. Was it about patience? You'll have to ask Nina in a couple of days if she has any idea what you're referring to. .... > > I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve > renouncing > our > deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the power > of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course. ... S: Yes, renunciation of any akusala arising, including any present lobha as you suggest. Metta, Sarah ======= 38072 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Sarah Hi Chris, Thanks for sharing your diary extracts from India. Very descriptive and beautifully told. Thank you also for your kind comments and reminders about a discussion that was useful for me as well. When we discuss dhammas like lobha, we begin to see how very universal the problems in life really are and again I'm reminded that when there is sati, there's no problem at all;-). .... --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Can't think of the dhamma focus > here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa go > and metta rise. > But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it? .... No, it's not. No control doesn't mean no development. No self to decide or determine what will arise at any moment, but understanding, awareness, detachment, confidence and so on can and will arise when there are the right conditions such as when we have reflected on their qualities and the realities which can be their objects. You referred to a p.c. vocabulary we might use, but of course it's not a question of whether we say 'develop', 'you develop' or 'panna develops', it's simply a matter of whether there is any understanding of any reality for what it is, rather than for an idea of 'a self' that has been entrenched for so very looooong. It's good to read all your other contributions and renewed interest too. Please keep sharing from your diary....;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 38073 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Howard (and Phil and Herman), > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm certainly not one to throw out babies! (Hey, and even bath water > is good in the desert! ;-) Yes, distinguishing right from wrong view is very > important. We must be wary, of course, at how easily our distinguishing capacity > is influenced by our desires and inclinations even without our awareness of > that influence. There are many things we cling to, and we "mind people" include > views and theories prominently among the things we cling to most tightly. I > think that part of what constitutes genuine wisdom is being able to see when we > are clinging, for when we don't even realize we are holding tight, there is > little chance of our letting go. Relinquishment is, I believe, the keystone of > patapatti. > --------------------------------------------- I know you have brought something like this up before with Phil, about "panna knows" being used unreflectively and indiscriminatingly. And I mentioned in a post to Herman about Ehipassiko as being to the effect the same thing as "panna knows". I know it is very hard to tell and we can talk about `detachment' or the wearing away of `adze handle'. The problem in any case arises imo when we factor in `self'. This happens in cases when we `want' to understand the present moment, or when we identify with any experience or when we look back and think about what we might have learned. In all these cases I think the perception and thinking would be off the mark. So when we do refer to `panna' as being the only real judge, then we should look at this as an impersonal process, and that any attempt to identify or figure out will be the negative influence of self. Incidentally this Saturday, a dhamma friend mentioned some experience and how long after the incident, she learned something from it. I was somewhat doubtful but couldn't sort out my thoughts to express anything fruitful. But a little while later another friend talked about how he realized something in retrospect and thought "Wow". We started then to talk about "wow" and "aha" experiences. When I suggested that panna would never exclaim "aha" or "wow", this friend thought that it might happen only with `conceptual understanding', but not with `direct experience'. I objected to this saying that it was probably because the `self' came in immediately after, and at that time it wasn't panna anymore. And this could happen even after satipatthana. In the end, panna or no panna, there is always something which can be known now, so why hold on to or have doubt about what has already gone? Just wanted to add something ;-). Metta, Sukin 38074 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Ken O, Thanks, very good material and good comments following. :-) Metta, Sukin. > Hi Sukin > > I think I did post this extract before in DSG. > > Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 > > 446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of > expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is > manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as > suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, > concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering > (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 38075 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 3:05am Subject: Zen and Tibetan (..) conventional versions of Buddhist practice ? Dear Ken H, Sarah and all In message 38068 (Subject: Re: New to Group) kenhowardau stated to Tyler: > Having studied Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, you already > know the conventional versions of Buddhist practice. > So why don't you look into the practice found in the > ancient Theravada texts? It is totally different from > the conventional versions and totally > consistent with anatta. In this practice, there is no self; > there are only dhammas - conditioned mental and > physical phenomena (nama and rupa). So, put aside > everything you have learnt about formal > meditation and about mindfulness techniques. > Put aside thoughts of controlling the flow of > dhammas and, instead, allow right understanding to arise. Because I'm trying to start a fruitful discussiopn between the several buddhist traditions in my country I'm interested in comparing them. Do you really think Zen and Tibetan buddhism are only convential versions and Theravada is the really one, the only ultimate truth ? And do you think this way of stating helps the discussion between traditions? I don't: also in Zen and Tibetan there is the idea of the two realities, it's better to compare ultimate one of the traditions and not the ultimate of Theravada with the conventional of the others. It also was the reason of my question to Sarah about reflections of her pilgrimage to India where she could see a multi-religious and multi-buddhist culture. Sarah, your reaction (in # 37978) was: > To be honest, I don't think much about Buddhists and > non-Buddhists, about cultures, about Theravada and > Mahayana. If I can find ways to share > what I have learnt about the Buddha's teachings and > have great confidence in, then I will. I think it's the > understanding of realities that is important, not the > labels and definitely not the numbers. Like here on > DSG, we have our discussions in public, so anyone > can participate and we can all share our limited > knowledge, but we don't expect all Buddhist > groups to be interested in the scope of our discussions. Of course the DSG is a Theravada discussion group and joining it is good for my development. I should like it if a Tibetan or Zen buddhist joined this DSG; of course not for proselyting but for example for asking information starting from their frame of reference but I'm afraid they are also not interested. If somebody knows a really good multi-buddhist discussion-group, please give me the (internet)adress; 'good' is for me: not starting with opinions but with facts and arguments; not trying to proselyte and especially: not being arrogant, not feeling superior. And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand why the differentiation of Buddhism started. Metta Joop 38076 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) conventional versions of Buddhist practice ? Hello Joop, all, Mostly people like to exchange ideas and discuss Dhamma with people from their own tradition - usually a tradition they have settled on after shopping around in the first place. You may like to have a look at E-Sanga which has 30 boards covering all traditions, and many interests, even a Games board and a Coffee Lounge. The List has 4,085 members as of a few minutes ago. Most users ever online at the same time was 142 on 29 September. There is usually something interesting to post a response to, and there is a chat room that is always open, plus the facility of personal messaging others. Everyone is welcome to post (after registering) on the individual Tradition boards, ask questions, express opinions - and each board usually has three to five moderators. Mostly the various Mahayana traditions and Theravada get on fine. Sect bashing is discouraged. There are innovative and user friendly editing functions for posts. All posts must be written and read at the website. Nothing is sent to your inbox. The understanding of the posters varies - some are new to Buddhism and some are forty year veterans. Eventually you realise who has shallow understanding and who has much deeper understanding. It may not be what you are looking for - but it is worth a look. http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Ken H, Sarah and all > > In message 38068 (Subject: Re: New to Group) kenhowardau stated to > Tyler: > > > Having studied Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, you already > > know the conventional versions of Buddhist practice. > > So why don't you look into the practice found in the > > ancient Theravada texts? It is totally different from > > the conventional versions and totally > > consistent with anatta. In this practice, there is no self; > > there are only dhammas - conditioned mental and > > physical phenomena (nama and rupa). So, put aside > > everything you have learnt about formal > > meditation and about mindfulness techniques. > > Put aside thoughts of controlling the flow of > > dhammas and, instead, allow right understanding to arise. > > Because I'm trying to start a fruitful discussiopn between the > several buddhist traditions in my country I'm interested in comparing > them. Do you really think Zen and Tibetan buddhism are only > convential versions and Theravada is the really one, the only > ultimate truth ? And do you think this way of stating helps the > discussion between traditions? I don't: also in Zen and Tibetan there > is the idea of the two realities, it's better to compare ultimate one > of the traditions and not the ultimate of Theravada with the > conventional of the others. > > It also was the reason of my question to Sarah about reflections of > her pilgrimage to India where she could see a multi-religious and > multi-buddhist culture. Sarah, your reaction (in # 37978) was: > > > To be honest, I don't think much about Buddhists and > > non-Buddhists, about cultures, about Theravada and > > Mahayana. If I can find ways to share > > what I have learnt about the Buddha's teachings and > > have great confidence in, then I will. I think it's the > > understanding of realities that is important, not the > > labels and definitely not the numbers. Like here on > > DSG, we have our discussions in public, so anyone > > can participate and we can all share our limited > > knowledge, but we don't expect all Buddhist > > groups to be interested in the scope of our discussions. > > Of course the DSG is a Theravada discussion group and joining it is > good for my development. > I should like it if a Tibetan or Zen buddhist joined this DSG; of > course not for proselyting but for example for asking information > starting from their frame of reference but I'm afraid they are also > not interested. > If somebody knows a really good multi-buddhist discussion-group, > please give me the (internet)adress; 'good' is for me: not starting > with opinions but with facts and arguments; not trying to proselyte > and especially: not being arrogant, not feeling superior. > And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started. > > Metta > Joop 38077 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 4:01am Subject: Right Resolve- Eightfold Path for Teens Friend Rob M., And the talk continues.... Right Resolve is the second factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha defined Right Resolve with these words, "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." In order to understand Right Resolve, it is important to understand the importance of the mind. The most important thing to a Buddhist is the mind. Buddhists understand that everything we experience in life is dependent on the mind. Before the Buddha became enlightened, he realized that he, in essence, had `two minds'. He had a mind that inclined toward good thoughts and a mind that inclined toward bad thoughts. He also discovered that the bad thoughts caused him to have a great deal of suffering while the good thoughts caused him to be peaceful and happy. Therefore, he resolved to only allow the good thoughts and to stop the bad thoughts. Imagine that you each have one angel and one devil sitting on each of your shoulders. Sometimes the angel speaks in your right ear and makes you have good thoughts; sometimes the devil speaks to your left ear and makes you have bad thoughts. What should you do? Should you listen to both the angel and the devil? Of course not! You should do what the Buddha did: only allow the good thoughts; only listen to the angel. Over time, the devil will start speaking less and less until, if you reach enlightenment, the devil will disappear completely. So, you should resolve to only listen to your angel, to only have good thoughts, and to never listen to your devil. This is Right Resolve. The angle and devil don't really exist, they are both your own mind, but it is good to understand that we all have the potential for both good and bad thoughts. Keeping this analogy of the devil and the angel, it is important to know about the devil whispering in your ear is that he is very tricky! He will try to convince you that you should listen to him. How does he do this? He disguises himself as an angel. If you want to have a billion dollars, eat like a pig, or only look at beautiful objects, the devil will convince you that these things are good. If you want to get angry at someone, seek revenge, and maybe beat someone up, the devil will also convince you that these things are good. The devil in your mind will convince you that you deserve to have and to do these things and they will bring you happiness. Thankfully, the Buddha saw the truth of what his devil was telling him and he decided to stop listening. He saw that pleasure from the senses, be it taste, touch, smell, sight, and sound, is not really a pleasure at all…it is a trap and suffering! He saw that he didn't have to have a big house, lots of money, or fancy clothes to be happy. His mind became bent on renunciation: getting rid of those things in his life that aren't important. And when his mind gave up craving those things that aren't important, he felt free and happy. He was like a bird soaring on the wind, with no attachments and no complications in his life. Additionally, he also began to see that hatred and anger, directed at anything, didn't do him any good either. Hatred was like a poison that killed him from the inside. So, he gave up thoughts of ill will and became bent on harmlessness. So, to have Right Resolve is to resolve to get rid of those things that aren't important to life and to get rid of thoughts of anger and hatred. Nothing will happen until a person resolves to make it happen. Do you want to get rid of those bad thoughts? If so, then you have to resolve to get rid of them. You have to resolve to get rid of that devil on your shoulder. But, let me warn you, he won't go away easily! It will take some time to accomplish the goal of renunciation and harmlessness. The way to do this will be explained more in detail with the remainder of the Noble Eightfold Path. Next I will speak to you about Right Speech. (To be continued…) Metta, James 38078 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Conceptual right view" is 'uncontestable' [Howard] Dear Howard, There is no need to apologize for not responding. I do wish you the best with your health. Metta, Dan > ====================== > Please forgive me in advance for not getting back to you on this. At > least at the moment, I find myself resistant to going back and looking this > business over. I haven't been feeling so hot the last few days - a bit tired and > "not quite right", and I'm just going to let this pass, at least for the time > being. My apologies. > > With metta, > Howard > 38079 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Zen and Tibetan (..) conventional versions of Buddhist practice ? Dear Joop, A couple more brief comments on the part to me- (I'll leave the first part to KenH:-)). --- jwromeijn wrote: > > Of course the DSG is a Theravada discussion group and joining it is > good for my development. .... S: Glad to hear it. I appreciate your approach and interest. .... > I should like it if a Tibetan or Zen buddhist joined this DSG; of > course not for proselyting but for example for asking information > starting from their frame of reference but I'm afraid they are also > not interested. .... S: You might be surprised to know that some of the long-term and active members have come from Tibetan and Zen backgrounds. Mike, for example, has a long background in Zen I believe. Howard, Larry and many others came with great familiarity of Mahayana texts. Everyone comes with their own 'frame of reference', but we share a common interest obviously in exploring the Theravadan teachings together as applied to the present moment. I think the criterion or value is in the discussion of realities, regardless of our backgrounds, as you hinted at too, but sometimes we have to just agree to differ on various understandings, just as those of us reading exactly the same materials have to do sometimes as well;-) ..... <...> > And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started. .... S: From time to time there have been discussions on the early Councils and these aspects. You're welcome to pursue it,(keeping the guidelines in mind of course;-)) and if you want any information from the Theravada commentaries, I'm happy to help. Others may contribute too, like DN who has a wealth of information on these matters. While I find these historical discussions interesting, I question whether they help us to know more about the present realities. What do you think? Do they actually help remove any doubts about the validity of the texts we're studying? I'd be glad to hear more of your ideas about the value or your particular interest. I knew you wouldn't be impressed by my last response. Metta, Sarah p.s Hope your leg is recovering well. In India, Nina taught us how to pronounce your name with a 'Y' sound rather than a 'J' sound;-). ======= 38080 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 6:31pm Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 107 and Tiika. Visuddhimagga XIV, 107 and Tiika. 107. Herein, (70) the 'mind-element' has the characteristics of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc., and of cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert. It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on. Its proximate cause is the interruption of [the continued occurrence of consciousness as] life-continuum. It is associated with equanimity only. N: the mind-element, mano-dhaatu, is the five-door adverting consciousness. When a new object, visible object or sound, etc. has impinged on the relevant sense-base, there is not immediately seeing or one of the other sense-cognitions. There has to be first the citta which adverts to the object. Therefore, this citta is called the forerunner. The Tiika explains that this citta does not experience the flavour of the object completely, and that it occurs only once. No matter whether the object is desirable or undesirable, it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Its proximate cause is the interruption of the stream of bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum). The bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the pa.tisandhi-citta, they do not experience an object that impinges on one of the six doors. It is unpredictable which object impinges on one of the sense-bases and interrupts the stream of bhavanga-cittas. This helps us to understand the anattaness of realities. Only one sense-object at a time can impinge on the relevant sense-base. When visible object impinges on the eyesense, there cannot be sound impinging on the earsense at the same time. Neither can a person or a thing impinge on the eyesense. However, we join many different objects into a whole and believe that we see persons and things. Learning about the different cittas that arise in processes and experience one object through one ?oorway at a time, helps us to see that there is nobody in visible object, sound or the other sense-objects. ***** Nina. 38081 From: Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:06am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken (and Tyler) - In a message dated 11/8/04 1:47:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Having studied Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, you already know the > conventional versions of Buddhist practice. So why don't you look > into the practice found in the ancient Theravada texts? It is > totally different from the conventional versions and totally > consistent with anatta. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I would be interested in reading what you believe that practice is, Ken. ----------------------------------------------- In this practice, there is no self; there > > are only dhammas - conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama > and rupa). -------------------------------------------- Howard: But what exactly is the practice, Ken? --------------------------------------------- So, put aside everything you have learnt about formal > > meditation and about mindfulness techniques. Put aside thoughts of > controlling the flow of dhammas and, instead, allow right > understanding to arise. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: How should Tyler allow that to happen, Ken, in your opinion? Why should it arise? What new conditions will yield that? That is: What is the practice? ----------------------------------------------- > > Dhammas arise by conditions at any of the six doors but only at one > door at a time. Any moment in which an arisen nama or rupa is > directly experienced (by other conditioned namas) with right > understanding, is a moment of right practice (satipatthana). ------------------------------------------- Howard: Namas (mental phenomena) and rupas (physical phenomena) are observed all the time. What is it that enables the right understanding that should encounter them to arise? To expect new results without new conditions is ... odd. -------------------------------------------- > > For us beginners, satipatthana isn't likely to occur. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: The normal meaning for the word 'satipatthana' is "foundations (or stations) of mindfulness", and the literal meaning is "the setting forth, putting forth, or setting up of mindfulness". That is different from 'pa~n~na', which means "insight" or "wisdom", and is what you mean. Beginners certainly can make progress with the setting up of mindfulness. -------------------------------------------- If we barely > > know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to > know them directly? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: In the suttas, there is told how the Buddha instructed a mentally deficient man to meditate by attending to rubbing his hand on a rag! That man, certainly unable to grasp subtle theoretical concepts, attained a stage of awakening by that practice. ------------------------------------------- Even so, by studying and contemplating the > > Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > satipatthana to develop. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That sort of theoretical, intellectual "understanding" can advance forever, but, by itself, will not lead to awakening. The Buddha didn't teach a Noble One-Fold Path consisting of the single factor: Study my theory. -------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38082 From: Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study co rner36-Feeli ng/Vedana (i) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/8/04 2:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Whatever the sound heard, they can be the object of awareness right now, > as can the thinking about it. The reality of sound is simply that which is > heard as we both agree. When there's any clinging or trying to have > awareness, then it shows the lack of detachment to what is conditioned > again ====================== I'm not clear on your point here, Sarah. Attempting to pay clear attention to whatever arises through any sense door is *good*. In fact, what I understand sati to be is not forgetting to be attentive to whatever arises. Clinging is another matter. We all know that is harmful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38083 From: Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/8/04 3:06:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Incidentally this Saturday, a dhamma friend mentioned some experience > and how long after the incident, she learned something from it. I was > somewhat doubtful but couldn't sort out my thoughts to express > anything fruitful. But a little while later another friend talked about how > he realized something in retrospect and thought "Wow". > We started then to talk about "wow" and "aha" experiences. When I > suggested that panna would never exclaim "aha" or "wow", this friend > thought that it might happen only with `conceptual understanding', but > not with `direct experience'. I objected to this saying that it was > probably because the `self' came in immediately after, and at that time > it wasn't panna anymore. And this could happen even after > satipatthana. > In the end, panna or no panna, there is always something which can be > known now, so why hold on to or have doubt about what has already > gone? > > Just wanted to add something ;-). > > =========================== Actually, I think that, at times, because proper conditions are currently in place, while they were not previously, the recollection or review of certain past events may lead to insight, in rather much the same way as a word or two of Dhamma or the sound of a pebble striking a tree trunk can serve as trigger. If the fruit is ripe, even a slight breeze blowing in the right direction may be sufficient to make it fall from the tree. The "wow" or "aha" business may vary from case to case. Sometimes it is a natural, free flowing expression of joy and wonder. (Think of the paeons of joy uttered by bhikkhus and bhihhunis resulting from true awakenings, reported in the Theragatha and Therigatha.) At other times, however, it may just be an after-the-fact, summing up by still ego-defiled mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38084 From: Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Conceptual right view" is 'uncontestable' [Howard] Hi, Dan - Thanks, Dan! I'm replying at the moment pretty much just to posts that I can respond to "off the top of my head", which rarely includes your pithy posts. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/8/04 7:46:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > There is no need to apologize for not responding. I do wish you the > best with your health. > > Metta, > > Dan > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38085 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 107 and Tiika. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Visuddhimagga XIV, 107 and Tiika. 107. Herein, (70) the 'mind-element' has the characteristics of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc., and of cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert. It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on. Its proximate cause is the interruption of [the continued occurrence of consciousness as] life-continuum. It is associated with equanimity only. N: the mind-element, mano-dhaatu, is the five-door adverting consciousness. ..snip.. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, The five-door adverting consciousness is mano-dhaatu. There are other 2 mano-dhaatus. They are receiving-consciousness of wholesome resultant and unwholesome resultant consciousness. So before eye-consciousness mano-dhaatu arises. And after eye- consciousness mano-dhaatu also arises. Panca-dvara-avajjana citta or five-door adverting consciousness is not the only mano-dhaatu. With respect, Htoo Naing 38086 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 8:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 114 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Apart from citta and cetasika which are ultimate realities, there is another reality. It is rupa. Rupa are the nature which are always influenced by one or more of four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. Rupa are always changing as citta and cetasika are always changing even though they are relatively slower than nama dhamma. Unlike nama dhamma, rupa do not have the nature that can be aware of themselves and their surroundings. Rupa can never know anything. But rupa serve various functions in connection with nama dhamma 'citta and cetasika'. In terms of their intrinsic character, there are 28 separate paramattha rupas. 1. 4 mahabhuta rupas 2. 5 pasada rupas 3. 4 gocara rupas or visaya rupas ( or 7 gocara or 7 visaya rupas ) 4. 2 bhava rupas 5. 1 hadaya rupa 6. 1 jivita rupa 7. 1 ahara rupa or 1 oja rupa ( altogether these 18 rupas are nipphanna rupas ) 8. 1 pariccheda rupa or akasa rupa 9. 2 vinatti rupas 10. 3 lahutadi rupas ( together with 2 vinatti rupas, these 5 are 5 vikara rupas) 11. 4 lakkhana rupas ( these last 10 rupas are anipphanna rupas ) There are 28 paramattha rupas. In terms of their class there are 11 classes of rupa as shown in above. Among them, 4 mahabhuta rupas are rupa that are called upada rupas. All other 24 rupas have to depend on these 4 mahabhuta rupas. Mahabhuta rupas are the base for all rupas including themselves. These four rupas again are also associated with other four rupas all of which have to totally depend on these four mahabhuta rupas. Along with these, further four rupas namely 'vanna' or 'rupa', gandha, rasa, and oja or ahara, all eight constitue avinibbhaga rupa which means inseparable materials. Mahabhuta rupas are four great elements. They are pathavi or solidity, tejo or temperature, apo or liquidity, and vayo or movement or resistence or supportiveness. Pathavi is earth element. It is the nature that is firmness or hardness or softness which depends on density and organisation between and among atoms, molecules, compounds, and complexes of materials from science sense. Its nature can be sensed through kaya pasada rupa that exist in the body and pathavi will be perceived as hardness-softness of materials. Tejo is the nature that can be known by sensing through the body as warmness or coldness or anything like that which serves as temperature. While temperature is a word, the true nature of tejo can clearly be sensed by the body. Any matter in conventional sense has a temperature and this can be sensed by the body. Apo is the nature that unites the materials. It is cohesion. It is flowability, it is fluidity, it is spreadability, it is stickiness, it is driness-wetness state of materials in conventional sense. But the true nature of apo cannot be sensed through the body. It can only be sensed through mind sense door. Vayo is the nature that pushes or pulls materials together. It is compressibility-repressibility. It is supportiveness through pressure. It is movement. It is motion. It is resilience. The true nature of vayo can be sensed through the body. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38087 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: "One path" [Mike] Dear Mike, It's great to have you on board the thread! My impression is that you are coming from a different point of view from Sarah's -- and possibly different from mine too, but there are some language and cultural issues we need to work through before we the conversation can be fruitful. In my formulative years I was formally trained in "pure" math (as opposed to applied math). The writing style in math is governed by a theorem-proof format, wherein a hypothesis is presented as a simple, unapologetic statement and then an arguement for or discussion of the hypothesis follows. I still like that writing style: make a short, direct, simple statement of what I want to say, and then give details later. *Of course* all the hypotheses I make here are just my opinions! It's true of whatever I or anyone else here writes. Please understand that. At times, I've tried peppering my writing with phrases such as: "...at least that's what I think", "my opinion is...", "I think". These strike me as superfluous. OF COURSE the things I write are my opinion -- there's nothing else they could be! I do like your "working hypothesis" phrase, though, and I'll try to use it more when addressing you (because you like it too) and when addressing people who aren't as familiar with me (because it is softer than the unadorned "theorem-proof" style). With Sarah, though, I needn't worry because she has a long history of snapping even the most hardened-appearing views I've spouted. > > Insight comes first. > > Dan, thanks for this unequivocal statement of your view of this matter. > > > Description of the insight comes later. > > If at all, I suppose--I don't think anyone has been promoting 'description > of insight', though. My working hypothesis is that much of the Tipitaka is a description of reality as been directly seen by the speaker (or writer), rather than instructions for what to do or statements of what to think. The (apparently) extra-canonical notion of development of "conceptual right view" as a starting point (i.e., that progress must begin with an intellectual understanding) strikes me as mistaken. Sammaditthi is not conceptual. Sure, sammaditthi can arise with a concept as object (e.g., in jhana); but it is not the nature of the concept that puts the "samma" in "sammaditthi", it's the nature of the viewing. > > Speculation about a particular "insight" before that insight has been > > experienced is merely speculation. > > Obviously, speculation about any subject is 'merely speculation'. I think > we all understand this and I don't believe anyone here is promoting > speculation as insight. Oh, I think you are right about that. But I do believe many are promoting speculation as the way to begin the development of insight. Most explicit and eloquent on this issue is Bhikkhu Bodhi. He discusses it in his notes to MN 117 (in MLDB), in his introduction to the Sammaditthi sutta on ATI (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html), and in his "The Noble Eightfold Path: The Way to the End of Suffering" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html). For example, in "The N8fp:...", he writes "The Eightfold Path starts with a conceptual understanding of the Four Noble Truths apprehended only obscurely through the media of thought and reflection. It reaches its climax in a direct intuition of those same truths, penetrated with a clarity tantamount to enlightenment. Thus it can be said that the right view of the Four Noble Truths forms both the beginning and the culmination of the way to the end of suffering." It looks like he is saying that thought, reflection, and conceptual understanding of the noble truths without any direct insight are not only a part of the eightfold path, they are the START of the path. In his intro to sammaditthi sutta, he coins the term "conceptual right view" for this notion. I call an obscurely apprehended conceptual understanding "speculation" because isn't that type of "conceptual understanding" simply "conceptualization in the absense of direct experience (i.e., theorizing, i.e, 'speculation')"? If you read some wise person's reflection on what they directly experienced, their experience may have been with sammaditthi, but their WORDS are not sammaditthi and my conceptual understanding of their words is not sammaditthi either. It's always a temptation to view the "path" as a step-by-step recipe, either as a set of things-to-do or a set of things-to-think, and creating a third path -- a conventional eight- step path -- that consists of "conventional right effort", "conceptual right view", etc. The "conventional right effort" temptation lends itself very well to silabbataparamasa and the "conceptual right view" temptation lends itself very well to ditthi. [Have you ever noticed how the primary texts tend to use ditthi vs. sammaditthi rather than micchaditthi vs. sammaditthi? The latter makes sammaditthi look like a "right opinion" or speculation as opposed to a "wrong opinion", when the distinction is really between "formulation and holding to opinions (ditthi)" rather than "clear, unmuddied viewing". Translators frequently gloss "ditthi" as "(wrong) view". I think this is misleading because it paints the dichotomy as "right" vs. "wrong" instead of "opinion" vs. "sammaditthi", thereby muddying the critical distinction. To me, it seems that the notion of "conceptual right view" squarely puts speculation on the (conventional) path and muddies the nature of the critical distinction between ditthi and sammaditthi. Granted, it is comforting to have explicit instructions about how to proceed on the path: "First, develop a right conceptual understanding by reading and talking. Then, with that 'conceptual right view' firmly in place, direct understanding will later arise." However tempting it may be, a conventional, "instruction manual" approach is NOT the path because the path is one of *viewing*, not *views*. > > It is not some sort of "conceptual > > right view" that is a forerunner of sammaditthi. > > Whether or not there is a 'some sort of' sammaadi.t.thi that can take a > concept as an object is, for me, still an open question... I'm o.k. with the idea that sammaditthi can arise with concept as object; but it is not the nature of object that imparts the "samma", it is the nature of the viewing. However, "sammaditthi with a concept as object" is not what BB and Sarah seem to be referring to when they talk about "conceptual right view" as the first step in developing insight. > ... and one specifically > of definition of the word 'sammaadi.t.thi'. We're all aware, I think, that > sammaadi.t.thi can take paramattha dhammas as objects and that the latter > exclusively are the bases of vipassanaa. I'm inclined to think that right > view might view concept as concept as opposed to reality, for example--but > this may be misuse of the term 'sammaadi.t.thi' where pa~n~naa in some other > form might be more appropriate. I do feel fairly confident that pa~n~naa > can take concepts--such as beings, the teachings, views and so on-- as > objects. I'm certainly no Pali expert, but I agree with the gist of your take here. > > Buddha makes it > > clear that the one path is not a path of speculation and that > > speculation does not help. > > No one here has argued the contrary, to my knowledge. I think that Sarah is arguing to the contrary when she writes that there must be conceptual understanding in the first place, or that hammering out the intellectual, conceptual details is the first step in developing direct understanding. If there is no direct experience, no insight with which to work, then I'd call such conceptualization "speculation". Even when we use the same words as the wise speakers in the Tipitaka used, if we have no insight, no clear, samma understanding of their words, our spouting forth of theories is mere speculation. > In my reading of the > Dhammavinaya (and a little abhidhamma) texts, I've never known the Buddha to > suggest that hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma 'does not help'-- on the > contrary. Agreed. In fact, he says explicitly that hearing and reflecting DO help. Is that because it is necessary to build up a conceptual right view about things first? To my knowledge, he says nothing of the sort. In fact, doesn't he explicitly say (what looks to me like) the opposite, viz. that speculation is not helpful? Or, could it be that building up conceptual theories about things for which we have no insight to base them on is something more than speculation? > Of course this kind of advice is easily found in Mayahana and > Theosophical literature. For example, Mumon's "Stop, stop. Do not speak. > The ultimate truth is not even to think", is a fine example of the Zen idea > that samadhi is enlightenment or that enlightenment is simply the stopping > of conceptual, discriminating thought (cf. Hakuin's 'Song of Samadhi'). > Difficult to support this view from the Paali Tipitaka, though, I think, > without considerable manipulation. Or are we back to the "Mind is Pure" > thread? You lost me here. No matter. Let's stick with Theravada. > > You write: "On the other hand, as others have pointed out, it's > > essential to hear the teachings and to to develop pariyatti or > > a 'right' conceptual understanding in the first place." > > > > Yes, Buddha himself said hearing Dhamma is essential, and others - - > > KenO, Mike, KenH, Howard, Bhikkhu Bodhi, and yourself -- say it's > > essential to develop a conceptual right view *first*, as if insight > > is somehow dependent upon the "proper" piecing together of various > > speculations! > > I don't believe that any of us has made the argument you present here, or > would--I certainly wouldn't. I'm sorry I misunderstood you, Mike. I'm hoping Sarah will jump back in to explain how her apparent contention that intellectual understanding must come first differs from the way I put it, i.e., that insight is dependent on the the proper piecing together of various speculations. > > But you go on to argue, "Otherwise, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered > > to teach." I don't follow you, here, Sarah. Buddha's words help > > disciples develop a conceptual framework around their insights. This > > consolidation helps set the stage for deeper insight later. > > An interesting speculation--can you support this from the texts? Consider it my working hypothesis, but I do find support for it. To begin with, the notion that hammering out the details of a "conceptual right view" is the first step to developing insight, I believe, is rejected in the texts because that wholly conventional notion of development amounts to nothing more than speculation it seems. What I'm exploring is the idea that the discussion and listening is more along the lines of consolidation of prior insight. How is this any better than "conceptualization comes first"? I can think of several possibilites. First, conceptualization AFTER insight becomes a matter of description and expression of reality rather than speculation. This frees the arising of insight from dependence on speculation. Second, the distinction between ditthi and sammaditthi is less muddied. There is no question about whether a given conceptual formulation is sammaditthi or not, or "conceptual right view". It simply isn't because the samma in sammaditthi is in the viewing, not in the content. Third, there is less danger about having a hangup about the word "insight" as something mysterious and reserved only for those very advanced and wise few, exceptional, and almost mythical people. I think the "stages of insight" approach that Mahasi uses to great effect can be misleading (not to the level of "extreme miccha ditthi" :), but potentially misleading). The progress of insight is not one of "first there must be full and deep understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa before there can be any inkling of direct understanding of cause-and-effect, which must be fully developed and deep before any insight about the distinction between path and not path arises" and so on and so forth. I look at the "progress of insight" more along the lines of the insights (namarupapariccheda, sammasana, udayabbaya, bhanga, bhaya, etc.) getting progressively deeper and deeper, rather than going in order from "lower" to "higher" insights -- at least until the "stages" of magga and phala. I'd say that nearly everyone who hangs out with dsg has developed some level of direct understanding. Otherwise, there would be no attraction whatsoever to the discussions. That brings me to the third "better", viz. that holding fast to the idea that the intellectual details must be worked out before there can be any insight gets in the way of development because the mass of intellectual details available is enormous -- one can spend a lifetime (or two or three) trying to develop an intellectual right understanding and ignore the insights that do arise: "Oh, there CAN'T be any insight arising in me because I don't understand all those racks of Pali terms well enough and, besides, insight is something for wise people, not me." Insight arises; pay attention to it, rather than relying on speculations to some day, somehow give rise to insights. How to pay attention to it? It can help to listen, discuss, write, reflect because these are reminders of what reality looks like when viewed rightly, so the insights are deeper when they arise. This wouldn't work if the listening, discussing, and writing were of a speculative nature rather than descriptive. > The Buddha's words (by my reading and hearing) were meant to have quite a > variety of effects depending on (among other things) the ability of the > audience to understand, the circumstances and so on. In many cases, they > were meant to stimulate profound insight in the hearers, and they often did. > The suttas offer a great many examples of people, lay and ordained, who > attained the various paths immediately on hearing the Dhamma from the > Buddha. To my knowledge, nowhere in the tipitaka is it suggested that these > attainments were the result of insights that had occured BEFORE hearing the > Dhamma--except in those cases in which hearing the Dhamma again resulted in > attainments higher than previous attainments which had occured after hearing > the Dhamma, I think. So, what of those hearers who attain enlightenment after their first hearing of some of the Buddha's words? They were totally devoid of any insight at all because they were outside the dispensation, and then all of a sudden they have the profoundest insights at hearing the Buddha? I find that very hard to swallow. Much more plausible to me is that they had developed deep insight, bringing them to the threshold of enlightenment outside the dispensation. However, it took the words of the Buddha to bring them over the top. So, I think it is not controversial to say that sammaditthi arises with jhana and that jhana is (and was) taught (and attained) outside the dispensation. How is it controversial, then, to say that "right view" categorically CANNOT occur outside the dispensation? > > A > > deepening of the disciple's insight comes after consolidation of the > > shallower insights. > > Sometimes. If you're suggesting that this is always the case, a supporting > text would be helpful. There are numerous cases in the suttas of people > attaining nibbaana on having heard the Dhamma once from the Buddha. If > these are all examples of 'deepening of the disciple's insight...after > consolidation of the shallower insights' then maybe the Buddha said so at > some point--an example from the texts would be useful. The term "consolidation" is my coinage, and I don't think it appears in this context in the Tipitaka. Likewise, the "conceptual right view" that BB and Sarah (et al.) use also seems to be extra-canonical (much like the notion of "conventional right effort"). > > On the other hand, when I first heard the four Noble Truths over 20 > > years ago, they really did sound like Noble Truths to me. Why is > > that? Surely not because earlier that morning I'd been > > thinking, "Hmmm... You know what? I think suffering is ubiquitous; > > suffering is caused by desire; elimination of desire leads to > > elimination of suffering; the way to elimate desire is by following > > the eightfold path." Instead, I'd had previous insight into the 4NT. > > I take it that your view is that insight prior to hearing the Dhamma is > fairly commonplace, or at least not limited to paccekabuddhas. I wonder if > you can support this idea from the Paali Tipitaka? Do you think it possible to attain the deepest levels of insight without having had ANY prior, shallower insight? And, yes, I think anyone with any sense of spirituality as distinct from materiality has clearly developed some insight -- whether inside or outside the dispensation. However, I don't think that people outside the dispensation can develop insight to the depth necessary for full enlightenment. > If not, it seems like a curious omission to me. I don't know, Mike. I'm working on it. Don't you sometimes come up with working hypotheses to consider while reading? BB's "conceptual right view" and Sarah's "there must be intellectual understanding first" don't seem to have clear and explicit textual support either (but they do have much that appears to contradict). > > Granted, the insight was shallow. It was certainly not deep enough to > > be able to express clearly in words-- not even deep enough to even > > consider expressing it in words. However, it was at least deep enough > > for the Buddha's words to ring true in my ears. > > I think all of us have had the experience of having the Buddha's words 'ring > true'--in some cases, there may have been moments of satipa.t.thaana > occuring then--AFTER having read or heard the Buddha's words. Just > speculation on my part, of course. I think having new words of the Buddha "ring true" is evidence of insight -- whether the "ring true" is new insight or memory of an earlier unexpressed insight. And yes, I think all of us have had these kinds of insights, and, yes, these I'd call true insight -- usually shallow, sometimes deeper. I wouldn't reserve the use of "insight" to refer strictly to the deep, deep levels. Such restriction seems to me to reek of the version of the "progress of insight" that says: "first this, then this, then this..." rather than a deepening of insight into various aspects of existence, including bhanga, bhaya, etc. > > Back to an earlier comment of mine: > > > > D: Of course, it can be helpful to listen to others' descriptions > > of what reality looks like when it is understood directly, as it is. > > If we hear something that is verified by our experience and "strikes > > a chord", then the description can serve to help solidify our > > understanding. > > Conceptual or non-conceptual understanding? A description would be a > concept, it seems to me... Conceptual understanding to be sure. It is not so much the "conceptual" that I am addressing in the discussion as it is the "right". The description is certainly NOT sammaditthi, but it can be a description of sammaditthi. If, on the other hand, the conceptualization is speculation (i.e., "intellectual understanding" with no insight to base it on), then it is also NOT sammaditthi and is not even a description of sammaditthi -- even if the words are identical to the description in the previous case! I can see how a description of sammaditthi is could be thought of as "conceptual right view", but I still think the term is too subversive of the Dhamma (in particular, of the notion that "right opinion" is NOT what is meant by "sammaditthi"). > I find noteworthy in the context of this discussion your expression of your > own views as facts and those of others (well, at least one other) as > 'nonsense, to put it mildly'. The fact is that your views are yours and > mine are mine. I hope we may both benefit from discussing them. Please be patient with me, Mike. Sometimes I take pride in being direct. A few years back Robert rightly scolded me for it. To say someone else's ideas are 'nonsense, to put it mildly' is not very gentle language. I apologize. If I recall, I think I referring to the views of the proverbial "straw man" and thought most people on dsg would agree with me that shallower insights are not strictly reserved for those who study Buddha's words, but that fully liberating insights are. [By "shallower insights", I mean 'most any insight short of supramundane path consciousness.] Metta, Dan 38088 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Phil, Great to hear from you! Thanks for chiming in late in this thread. You write: "If there weren't 'conceptual right view', what on earth are we doing in a Dhamma discussion group? Anything we say here is conceptual. Saying 'insight comes first' is conceptual, and in your case reflects your conceptual right view." I don't have any problem at all with discussing concepts and using concepts and thinking about concepts. I do think Buddha's sammaditthi is quite a different matter from "right opinion" or "right conceptualization"; it is more of a "right viewing" -- no words, no theories. The "samma" comes not from the object taken up by the mind, but in the way that object is viewed. Thus, I'd wholly reject your characterization of my conceptualization as my "conceptual right view." You continue: "You had direct insight into the Four Noble Truths before reading about it, or listening to a talk about it? I guess that could be. Sounds like a very rare case though..." Phil, I'm certain that you have had many direct insights into reality. Otherwise, the Buddha's words would not sound pleasing to your ear. Do you remember the first Buddhist concepts that you heard or that caught your ear? Did they catch your ear because they sounded strange, bizarre, or perverted (as they do to many, many people)? Or did they catch your ear because they seemed to ring true? If so, did they ring true because you had thought about the concepts discussed in the same way? Or did you sense that they were true because they seemed to accord well with prior experience? Then, you say: "in the way that she or he is capable of - by reflecting on it conceptually and gradually confirming that theoretical understanding through experience, confirming it in a way that conditions more direct insight to come. That must be the way for most people, I'm sure." You're sure? And: "Of course we understand the Buddha's teaching in theory before we understand it directly." Of course? I don't see it. Is theoretical understanding a part of the path? Or is conceptualation the thing-to-do to develop the path? And: "That's the beauty of the Buddha's teaching. Good in the beginning (in theory) good in the middle (in practice) good in the end." I'd say "good in the beginning (shallow insight), good in the middle (description of insight), good in the end (liberation)." Finally: "if you tell me in what way it will be your conceptual right view correcting/straightening my conceptual right view - a very helpful exercise which could condition deeper insight to come, or not come, according to this and other conditions, for both of us. Thus is the value of Dhamma discussion. The straightening of conceptual understanding in a way that conditions insight. Very grateful for that." I look at the discussions not as "straighening conceptual understanding" but in terms of describing reality. The descriptions make it easier to distinguish ditthi from sammaditthi from moment to moment because the reminder is always there. If we are just speculating and theorizing, then we have no idea what to look for -- despite the words! The problem is that the words are incomprehensible EXCEPT in the light of experience. Metta, Dan 38089 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Your question gets to the heart of the issue. Please see my note to Mike for a little more explanation. I'll get to your specific question about insight into 4NT as time permits. Metta, Dan 38090 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 43-Feeling/Vedana (p) Hello all > We dislike domanassa and we would like to get rid of it, but we > should understand that dosa can only be eradicated by the > development of the wisdom which sees realities as they are. There > is no other way. I think it's helfpul to remember that dosa is always accompanied by another akusala root - moha. (ignorance.) Always. Dosa cannot arise without ignorance. If there was no ignorance, there would be no dosa! Understanding even in theory that 1) the unpleasant experience that led to the dosa comes from my kamma and 2)the dosa couldn't arise without ignorance of realities might help me stop whining about things so much! Dosa can be understood, can be penetrated by panna in a way that leads to liberation from dosa. So perhaps at moments of dosa there will come to be moments of gratitude to the Buddha who showed us the way out. Metta, Phil 38091 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan, and all >You continue: "You had direct insight into the Four Noble Truths >before reading about it, or listening to a talk about it? I guess >that could be. Sounds like a very rare case though..." >Phil, I'm certain that you have had many direct insights into >reality. Otherwise, the Buddha's words would not sound pleasing to >your ear. Do you remember the first Buddhist concepts that you heard >or that caught your ear? Did they catch your ear because they sounded >strange, bizarre, or perverted (as they do to many, many people)? Or >did they catch your ear because they seemed to ring true? If so, did >they ring true because you had thought about the concepts discussed >in the same way? Or did you sense that they were true because they >seemed to accord well with prior experience? This is a very interesting point, Dan. I've often wondered why my first contact with Abhidhamma felt so "right", so confidence building, like a revelation of great truth, when other people look at it and just see a bunch of Pali terms. One friend here told me that it was because of right understanding in a past life. Of course, it was also conditioned by having studied the Buddha's teaching and *not quite* feeling the pieces came together. (I can remember feeling that studying suttas and practicing brahma-viharas meditation might someday get me *close* to the other shore, but to take that final step on to dry land, if you will, there was something missing. I was close to turning to Zen to try to find that answer - that's when I came across Abhidhamma. But the first contact with Dhamma. That's very interesting to think about. I think like most people I had a preconceived notion of what Dhamma was about, based on wrong understanding in the media, etc. There was a craving to be a wise man, to impress women, to sound good at parties. That unskillful approach to Dhamma got me into the books, through pop Dhamma. No, there was not only conceit, there was also fear. So in a sense there *was* insight into the noble truths, shallow insight. There was suffering, that fear, that shallow insight into the First Truth, but there was no insight whatsoever into the Truth that that fear comes from clinging to the khandas, from clinging to wrong view of self. That kind of shallow insight into the Second Truth, can only arise after contact with the Buddha's teaching, in my opinion. His teaching of anatta is so unworldly, such a paradigm shift from other teachings, from conventional understanding of an eternal self, that atta that we find in all other religions. So I think we have to develop a conceptual right understanding of anatta before we can gain insight into it. That's another thing that I appreciate about Abhidhamma. I had read about anatta countless times but never really began to *get* it until I came across Abhidhamma. Ah, that might support your point. There *was* insight into anatta at that point, shallow insight, and only then did conceptual understanding of anatta have any value. But that doesn't apply to the path factors, methinks. It's easier to gain a theoretical appreciation of them that we can apply and test and deepen in daily life - not the case for anatta. Just thinking out loud here. It's an interesting point you've brought up. I'm sure I'll be reflecting more on it, as I follow this discussion with interest. (Which wasn't there before! Thank you for that.) Metta, Phil 38092 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Resolve- Eightfold Path for Teens Hi James. Really enjoying your series. Just one comment >Therefore, he >resolved to only allow the good thoughts and to stop the bad >thoughts. Of course the bad thoughts *will* come whether we try to stop them or not. That's why the 4 efforts include abandoning unskillful thoughts that have arisen as well as preventing those that haven't arisen. I think teenagers are even more prone to guilt that adults so I'd be aware of setting up a fight against the devil through which kids would feel guilty about losing if they had bad thoughts. Sounds a bit too fundy Christian. Maybe something about gently removing bad thoughts that have arisen, through no fault of the person, but because of conditions/kamma whatever. I think of that great scene in Good Will Hunting in which the shrink comforts Matt Damon with "it's not your fault, it's not your fault." Of course in Dhamma we know in a sense that it *is* our fault, but it's also the fault of past kamma that "we" weren't involved in. Middle way between a sense of personal responsibility and a sense of things being beyond our control. I would get that across, somehow, so the kids don't get freaked out or feel they've lost the battle with the devil when they realize they're thinking the bad thoughts that people inevitably do. (I sure do) Metta, Phil 38093 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 43-Feeling/Vedana (p) Hello All > We dislike domanassa and we would like to get rid of it, but we > should understand that dosa can only be eradicated by the > development of the wisdom which sees realities as they are. There > is no other way. One of the most helpful, basic points that I've been reminded of lately is that dosa mula cittas are always accompanied by moha mula cittas. In other words, aversion is always accompanied by ignorance. Aversion cannot arise without ignorance being at the root of it. If we are not ignorant of the realities of the moment, we will not have aversion. That's a very liberating concept that can be confirmed in daily life. Metta, Phil 38094 From: Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 107 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Welcome back! Everyone else who went to India came back exhausted. How are you? Also one dhamma question: is there a general difference in characteristic between the various mind-elements (manodhaatu) and the various mind-consciousness-elements (manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu)? In other words, why aren't they all called mind-consciousness-elements? Larry 38095 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) conventional versions of Buddhist practice ? Dear Joop, You wrote: ------------------------ > Because I'm trying to start a fruitful discussion between the several buddhist traditions in my country I'm interested in comparing them. > ------------------------ That's interesting, although I don't really share your enthusiasm. My interest in comparing schools of Buddhism is limited to seeing how horribly wrong they can go. I am thinking, in particular, of Tibet in the days before the Chinese mercifully liberated it. The people were enslaved under a particularly brutal form of feudalism. At the top of the heap, dishing out the brutality, were the lamas, and, as a crowning abomination, the lamas called themselves Buddhist monks! I know that is all in the past and, today, Tibetan Buddhists are wonderful people. But are they any more wonderful than people of other religious and secular persuasions? No, of course they aren't, and nor are Theravadin Buddhists. ---------------------------- J: > Do you really think Zen and Tibetan buddhism are only convential versions and Theravada is the really one, the only ultimate truth ? > ---------------------------- I suspect that the texts of all Schools of Buddhism contain the true teaching. But there are many wrong interpretations of those texts. The Theravada school has ancient commentaries that address the common wrong interpretations. I don't know if the other schools are so fortunate. Are they? -------------------------------------- J: > And do you think this way of stating helps the discussion between traditions? I don't: > -------------------------------------- No, nor do I. I hope DSG members knew that I was referring to the conventional ideas of Buddhist practice that are typically associated with Zen and Tibetan Buddhism. Those ideas are that satipatthana can be controlled by sitting stoically and by performing ceremonies. ---------------------- J: > also in Zen and Tibetan there is the idea of the two realities, it's better to compare ultimate one of the traditions and not the ultimate of Theravada with the conventional of the others. > ---------------------- Good point: I was needlessly stereotyping. In a moment of satipatthana, panna (right understanding) arises to see that a conditioned dhamma is exactly as the Buddha described it. At that precise moment, the five khandhas can be called a bhikkhu (or a bhikkhuni). At other times, terms like bhikkhu, layperson, Zen, Tibetan and Theravada refer, only in a [conventional] manner of speaking, to followers and the teaching of the Buddha. Kind regards, Ken H 38096 From: Tyler Sims Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop!"/ Phil Thanks Sarah, I will look at those posts. I am reading the posts here and trying to absorb all this new stuff. :) Tyler --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil (& Tyler), > > You wrote an excellent letter to Tyler, I thought. > > Btw, Tyler, welcome from me too - I look forward to more of your > reflections and discussions with all the members who've written to you so > far. You may also like to look at some Useful Posts from the archives, > scroll down to 'New to the List....' > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > --- plnao wrote: > > Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says > > that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that > > is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's > > way > > through. > .... > S: I think the Buddha says we may well be baffled or perplexed, meaning > this is natural (but not a state to be developed;-)). > .... > > >I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part > > and > > parcel > > of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down > > a bit on a difficult point. More middle way. > .... > S: Yes, I like your stress on this. > .... > > At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this - > > the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali term for > > it, > > I think. > > Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find > > it > > now. > .... > S: It doesn't ring a bell. Was it about patience? You'll have to ask Nina > in a couple of days if she has any idea what you're referring to. > .... > > > > I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve > > renouncing > > our > > deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the power > > of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course. > ... > S: Yes, renunciation of any akusala arising, including any present lobha > as you suggest. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 38097 From: Tyler Sims Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: New to Group Hi Ken, Thanks for the welcome. {snip} "If we barely know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to know them directly?" I need further clarification here. What does it mean to know a nama and/or rupa intellectually? And what does it mean to know them directly? Also, what does it mean to say that things arise "conditionally"? On a general note, I will follow your advice and look into the anicent Theravada texts. Thanks, Tyler --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tyler, > > Welcome to DSG. You wrote: > ----------------------------------------- > > I have been reading Buddhism for about a > > year now. I have read mostly Zen and Tibetan. I am currently > reading > > "What the Buddha Taught" by Wapola Rahula. I decided that I should > > check out the Theravada school as well (online). > > > > I see terms like Pali Canon, Tipitaka, etc. Where should I start > > learning? > ----------------------------------------- > > Having studied Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, you already know the > conventional versions of Buddhist practice. So why don't you look > into the practice found in the ancient Theravada texts? It is > totally different from the conventional versions and totally > consistent with anatta. In this practice, there is no self; there > are only dhammas - conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama > and rupa). So, put aside everything you have learnt about formal > meditation and about mindfulness techniques. Put aside thoughts of > controlling the flow of dhammas and, instead, allow right > understanding to arise. > > Dhammas arise by conditions at any of the six doors but only at one > door at a time. Any moment in which an arisen nama or rupa is > directly experienced (by other conditioned namas) with right > understanding, is a moment of right practice (satipatthana). > > For us beginners, satipatthana isn't likely to occur. If we barely > know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to > know them directly? Even so, by studying and contemplating the > Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > satipatthana to develop. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 38098 From: Tyler Sims Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Various Buddhist Traditions Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I just wanted to make a couple of comments. I hope I don't get myself into "trouble" here! I found the teaching by Walpola Rahula in his book "What the Buddha Taught" to be very concise and "easily" digested. So this insight got me to thinking "What did the Buddha really teach"? This inquiry is what led me to Theravada Buddhism and simultaneously this group. My question is: Does Zen and Tibetan "build" or "add to" to original teachings of the Buddha? My motive here is that I believe that TRUTH is naturally free of any/all cultural wrappings. I can understand and live by the Four Noble Truths and the EightFold Path. (Hopefully, at some point I will understand some of the new terms I have encountered here as well). I don't mind adding a few cultural things to my life but trying to track lineages, incarnations, gurus, etc is not my thing. I also was a but turned off by the argument about what the "highest/ultimate" teachings were, etc. PLEASE understand that I am saying that it was just not for me. I also understand and don't mind learning from others more "wiser" than me. I don't even mind following a trusted teacher as I would an academic teacher or a particular philosophy, etc. So back to my question....Does Zen and Tibetan "build on" Theravada or is it all apples and oranges? Back to reading the useful posts archives! :) Tyler 38099 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 11:13pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 44 - Feeling/Vedana (q) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Only the ariyan, the noble person, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment which is the stage of the anågåmí (non-returner), has eradicated clinging to sense objects and thus he has no more conditions for dosa. The anågåmí and the arahat have eradicated dosa and thus they never have any more unpleasant feeling. Dosa and domanassa always arise together. It is difficult to distinguish between these two realities , but they are different cetasikas. Domanassa is feeling, it experiences the taste of the undesirable object. Dosa is not feeling, it has a different characteristic. Dosa does not like the object which is experienced. There are many degrees of dosa, it can be a slight aversion, anger or hate. But in any case dosa does not want the object and domanassa feels unhappy. We know so little about the different realities which arise. We may have a backache. Is it painful bodily feeling which appears, or is it the characteristic of domanassa which accompanies dosa-múla-citta? ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38100 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study co rner36-Feeli ng/Vedana (i) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ====================== > I'm not clear on your point here, Sarah. Attempting to pay clear > attention to whatever arises through any sense door is *good*. ..... S: When there is 'Attempting to pay clear attention to whatever arises', say now, what is the reality at that very moment? ...... >In fact, > what I > understand sati to be is not forgetting to be attentive to whatever > arises. ..... S: I think there is a difference between a) sati being mindful naturally of whatever arises by conditions after hearingreading about its quality and about the various realities such as visible object or sound, and b)any attempting to pay attention or have sati arise. .... > Clinging is another matter. We all know that is harmful. .... S: I think we all know a lot about grosser forms of clinging and even about subtler forms in theory. At moments of attempting to have sati or attending to whatever arises, I'd suggest that lobha is there too. I also think it's very important for panna (understanding) to learn to distinguish between moments with and without sati, otherwise we're likely to be fooled all the time. I hope this clarifies a little, Howard. Thank you for asking. As I said, I thought your comments on sounds were very good. This was just an extra point I was adding to stress the reality of sound that can be known now - just that which is heard, without any thought of tone, discord or special attention. Metta, Sarah ======== 38101 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 8, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > Your question gets to the heart of the issue. Please see my note to > Mike for a little more explanation. I'll get to your specific > question about insight into 4NT as time permits. ..... When you get to this question, please also let me know who develops insight when it occurs outside the dispensation, whether in jhana development or in those 'with any sense of spirituality'. When the words of the Buddha 'rang true' with our prior 'true insights', who had had these insights? These 'shallower insights', defined by you as 'most any insight short of supramundane path consciousness' were into precisely what realities before we studied the 'Buddha's words'? Metta, Sarah p.s I'm hoping Mike will continue the other thread. And yes, no need to worry about any style issues when you write to me;-). Dan, I do hope we'll be able to make some recordings from Bkk and India available very soon - apologies for delays. Stay posted - you'll like them a lot, I think. ========================================== 38102 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha- What is it? Hi Howard, > =========================== > Actually, I think that, at times, because proper conditions are > currently in place, while they were not previously, the recollection or review of > certain past events may lead to insight, in rather much the same way as a word > or two of Dhamma or the sound of a pebble striking a tree trunk can serve as > trigger. If the fruit is ripe, even a slight breeze blowing in the right > direction may be sufficient to make it fall from the tree. > The "wow" or "aha" business may vary from case to case. Sometimes it > is a natural, free flowing expression of joy and wonder. (Think of the paeons > of joy uttered by bhikkhus and bhihhunis resulting from true awakenings, > reported in the Theragatha and Therigatha.) At other times, however, it may just be > an after-the-fact, summing up by still ego-defiled mind. > > > With metta, > Howard ----------------------------------------- If the past can in anyway be a condition for insight, I think it must be only because it has conditioned the experience of a presently arisen dhamma. Concepts after all don't have any characteristic to be insighted. Thinking can of course be kusala, and may even help to increase understanding on the pariyatti level. However the object of satipatthana can only be a paramattha dhamma. My objection to the "aha" experience is the likelihood that the person who expresses it does not know this difference between reality and concept. The Thera and Theri who expressed joy and wonderment, very well knew this and the freedom it implied. :-) Metta, Sukin 38103 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) conventional versions of Buddhist practice ? Dear Christine, Sarah, Ken and all Thank you Christine for mentioning E-Sangha, I already spent some hours on the fora of it yesterday. Sarah, you asked me: > While I find these historical discussions interesting, I question > Whether they help us to know more about the present realities. > What do you think? > Do they actually help remove any doubts about the validity of > the texts we're studying? I'd be glad to hear more of your ideas > about the value or your particular interest. I knew you > wouldn't be impressed by my last response. I have two special reasons for studying the history of early buddhism (and one general: like you going for pilgrimage to India to be where "it all started" I'm doing that on a more abstract way) (1) A personal reason. I defined myself a Theravadin some years ago after "shopping around" as Christine called it. But it's a Theravada à la carte, a buffet-buddhism. Of some parts of Theravada I think: I have no need to make that part of my system, I don't belief that. As far as I know it now I prefer the not-institutionalised, more vivid and less systemased early Buddhism as Kalupahana described it in his books. And some Mahayana-texts I like very much: Nagarjuna (who is in fact not a Mahayanist but a direct follower of the Buddha) and the Heart-sutra for example. And I want to understand why and how and where the differentiation of the early buddhism started, to find my place in the evolution of buddhism more exactly. (2) A social reason. In the Netherlands (and in most western countries) many buddhist traditions have followers. But that's all in very small sangha's, with hardly any contact with each others. To me it's important that people of different religions can discuss with each other (for example with Christianity and Islam). But Buddhists can't even discuss with other Buddhists ! So I'm trying to promote that inter-tradition-discussion in my country. And discussing in internet-fora is an exercise for me, for getting more social competence in that discussion. An example: I think the Mahayana- concept 'Budhha-Nature' is an atta-belief, is not compatible with the teachngs of the Buddha, but how to talk about that concept? Behind that need for discussion is my idea that on the long run a new kind of 'western buddhism' (or 'global buddhism') will appear and I will contribute to that future. My leg doing better again, the blood is circulating merry again so I can make long-distance-walks in some months (and perhaps next winter I will visit Thailand, maybe when there is a DSG-activity). Ken, thanks for your explanations. I'm not sure the Chinese are altruistic welldoers in Tibet. You stated: > The Theravada school has ancient commentaries that > address the common wrong interpretations. > I don't know if the other schools are > so fortunate. Are they? Nearly all belief-system in the world say all other belief-systems are wrong or only correct on a primitive level. Mahayana has the concept of 'skillful means': the idea that the Buddha not only made 'public teachings' (the Sutta Pitika) but also 'esoteric' ones, only known by advanced adepts. But is one of the stories of the Abhidhamma (spoken by the Buddha to His mother in one of the heavens) not nearly the same? Further you wrote: > … I was referring to the conventional ideas of Buddhist > practice that are typically associated with Zen and > Tibetan Buddhism. Those ideas are that > satipatthana can be controlled by sitting stoically > and by performing ceremonies. I recognize that in Zen, but Tibetan Buddhism I don't associate with sitting stoically, one of the reason I never joined a Tibetan group after some monts spending in it was to 'Dionysian', to extravert. And I'm afraid doing rituals, having faith and devotion is also part of (popular) ethnic Theravada. But most important: I agree with your conviction that vipassana (alo called insight-) meditation brings us further on our buddhistic path than samatha (jhanic-) meditation. Because it fits best with the three principles all buddhist accept: dukkha, anatta and anicca. Metta Joop 38104 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 4:15am Subject: Buddhaghosa Created Theravada? (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) Dear Joop and all How are you? Joop wrote: "And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand why the differentiation of Buddhism started." What do you mean by "(before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada)"? If it were not your original idea, where did you get that? With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS-- Joop, if you wanted to join a multi-school Buddhist group, how about trying the following link? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhistWellnessGroup/ Good luck! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Ken H, Sarah and all > ------------.. roselyte > and especially: not being arrogant, not feeling superior. > And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started. > > Metta > Joop 38105 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 4:39am Subject: There is a Practice : To Howard Dear Howard, Ken H and all How are you? Howard, your responses to Ken's statements are sharply put and good overall. But, the following exchange between Ken's statement and your reply puzzled me, and needs your further clarification. "Ken H : Even so, by studying and contemplating the > > Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > satipatthana to develop. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That sort of theoretical, intellectual "understanding" can advance forever, but, by itself, will not lead to awakening. The Buddha didn't teach a Noble One-Fold Path consisting of the single factor: Study my theory." -------------------------------------------- To help you start somewhere, how can studying and contemplating Dhamma (namas and rupas) be regarded as a Noble One-fold Path? With regards, Suan 38106 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 6:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 115 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 mahabhuta rupas are basic elements of all rupas and they are base for all rupa dhammas. All other 24 paramattha rupas have to depend on these 4 mahabhuta rupa. When 4 mahabhtu rupas are especially arranged in a specific collection as dictated by kamma, there arise 5 different rupas which are finally these 4 mahabhuta rupas. But as these new 5 rupas do have their specific characters and functions, they are worthy to become separate rupas. They are 5 pasada rupas. 1.cakkhuppasada or eye-sense-receptor 2.sotappasada or ear-sense-receptor 3.ghanappasada or nose-sense-receptor 4.jivhappasada or tongue-sense-receptor 5.kayappasada or body-sense-receptor These 5 rupas are called pasada rupas. They are collections of mahabhuta rupa but with extra qualities on their own. They each clearly do their jobs. Cakkhuppasada is eye. But eye in conventional sense is not cakkhuppasada. That is the physical eye that exist is not cakkhuppassada rupa. Cakkhu pasada is a rupa which is capable to receive the visual object. No other rupa can perceive visual object including mahabhuta rupa which is not cakkhu pasada. Cakkhu pasada cannot be seen by our eye and sensed by any of 5 physical senses. But it is a reality and it can only be sensed through manodvara. The same applies to other pasada rupas. These 5 rupas serve as pasada, serve as vatthus or bases, serve as dvaras or doors. There are 7 gocara rupas or visaya rupas. Gocara means 'arammana where mind enjoys'. Visaya means 'locality' 'pronvince'. So these 7 rupas are the province where mind enjoys. They are 1. rupa ( vanna ) or colour 2. sadda or sound 3. gandha or smell 4. rasa or taste 5. photthabba or touch sense 5. pathavi or hardness-softness 6. tejo or warmness-coldness 7. vayo or pressure or movement These 7 rupa serves as arammana or object. Pathavi, tejo, and vayo have been described in the previous post. Even though these three rupas are mahabhuta rupas, they also serve as gocara rupas or visaya rupas because they can be places where mind enjoys. But for the purpose of enumerating different rupas these three are excluded from 7 gocara rupas and so there left 4 gocara rupa. So far we have discussed on 4 mahabhuta rupas, 5 pasada rupas and 4 gocara rupas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 7:59pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 108 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 108 and Tiika. Vis text 108. But the 'mind-consciousness-element' is of two kinds, namely, shared by all and not shared by all. [457] Herein, (71) that 'shared by all' is the functional [mind-consciousness-element] accompanied by equanimity without root-cause. It has the characteristic of cognizing the six kinds of objects. Its function is to determine at the five doors and to advert at the mind door. N: The mano-dvaaraavajjana-citta, mind-door adverting consciousness, is an ahetuka kiriyacitta that performs the function of determining, vo.t.thappana, through the five sense-doors and it is called after its function vo.t.thappana-citta. The Tiika explains as to the vo.t.thappana-citta that, after it has taken the object from the santiira.nacitta (investigating-consciousness), it occurs as it were (viya) defining or fixing the object. The word viya, as it were, is meaningful; it shows that its function is different from what we call in conventional language determining or fixing. It is neither kusala nor akusala, it is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta. It is only one moment of citta and it is followed (in the case of non-arahats) by kusala cittas or akusala cittas and these arise because of accumulated conditions. This reminds us of the uncontrollability of cittas: there is no time to decide whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas will arise. Cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly. The mind-door adverting-consciousness performs the function of adverting, aavajjana, through the mind-door. It is the first citta of the mind-door process that arises after the bhavangacittas and after it has adverted to the object it is followed by kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Thus, the mano-dvaaraavajjana-citta performs the function of determining, vo.t.thappana, through the five sense-doors and it performs the function of adverting, aavajjana, through the mind-door. It is one type of citta that performs two functions. Vis. text: It is manifested as the states [of determining and adverting] corresponding to those [last-mentioned two functions]. Its proximate cause is the departure either of the resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (40)-(41) [in the first case], or of one among the kinds of life-continuum [in the second]. (72) That 'not shared by all' is the functional [mind-consciousness-element] accompanied by joy without root-cause. It has the characteristic of cognizing the six kinds of objects. Its function is to cause smiling [41] in Arahants about things that are not sublime. It is manifested as the state corresponding to that [last-mentioned]. Its proximate cause is always the heart-basis. N: The Tiika explains as to the heart-base, that it arises in planes where there are five khandhas, naama and ruupa. When one smiles or laughs, there are ruupas originated from citta. This reminds us that we should not take laughing for self. There are only naama and ruupa. Vis. text: So the sense-sphere functional without root-cause is of three kinds. N: Namely: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, the mind-door adverting-consciousness (performing two functions: determining, vo.t.thapana, through the five doors and adverting through the mind-door), and the smile producing consciousness of the arahat, the hasituppaada-citta. ---------------------- Note 41. 'With respect to such unsublime objects as the forms of skeletons or ghosts' (Pm. 476). See e.g. Vin.iii,104. ***** N: We read in the Expositor (II, p. 386) about the smiling-consciousness of the arahat which arises in the processes of cittas experiencing objects through the six doors: We read that evenso the Tathaagata smiles at the thought of the arising of Silent Buddhas in the future. N: First the Buddha directs his attention to the past or the future with mahaa-kiriyacittas, accompanied by wisdom, and after that he smiles with ahetuka kiriyacittas, which are hasituppaada cittas. It is explained in the Expositor (II, p. 388) that ordinary persons laugh with four types of citta: four kusala cittas accompanied by joy, and four lobha-muula-cittas accompanied by joy. When we laugh, there are usually lobha-muulacittas. Arahats smile with four mahaa-kiriyacittas accompanied by joy and with one type of ahetuka kiriyacitta accompanied by joy. The latter type of citta is ahetuka, it is without the hetus of alobha, adosa and paññaa. The cittas of the arahat are not always accompanied by paññaa. ***** Nina. 38108 From: Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Various Buddhist Traditions Hi, Tyler - In a message dated 11/9/04 12:29:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, tylersims@l... writes: > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the warm welcome. > > I just wanted to make a couple of comments. I hope I don't get myself > into "trouble" here! > > I found the teaching by Walpola Rahula in his book "What the Buddha > Taught" to be very concise and "easily" digested. So this insight got > me to thinking "What did the Buddha really teach"? This inquiry is > what led me to Theravada Buddhism and simultaneously this group. > > My question is: Does Zen and Tibetan "build" or "add to" to original > teachings of the Buddha? > > My motive here is that I believe that TRUTH is naturally free of > any/all cultural wrappings. I can understand and live by the Four > Noble Truths and the EightFold Path. (Hopefully, at some point I will > understand some of the new terms I have encountered here as well). > > I don't mind adding a few cultural things to my life but trying to > track lineages, incarnations, gurus, etc is not my thing. I also was a > but turned off by the argument about what the "highest/ultimate" > teachings were, etc. PLEASE understand that I am saying that it was > just not for me. > > I also understand and don't mind learning from others more "wiser" > than me. I don't even mind following a trusted teacher as I would an > academic teacher or a particular philosophy, etc. > > So back to my question....Does Zen and Tibetan "build on" Theravada or > is it all apples and oranges? > > Back to reading the useful posts archives! :) > > Tyler > =========================== I believe that Mahayana and Vajrayana do build on and add to the Dhamma. However, there is an essential core (Hah, "essential core" isn't good Buddhist language! ;-)) which is common to all the traditions. Moreover, as to what is additional, some of it is a superficial matter of differences in cultural and tradition-oriented practices and terminology, some of it is, in my opinion, a bit "off the mark" and contrary to the Dhamma (but that is true as well, I believe, for a small minority of sub-schools of Theravada), and some of it consists of differing emphases and deep understandings that can enhance and beneficially inform one's knowledge of the Buddha's teachings. Examples of this last are presentations within the "poetry" of Ch'an and Zen and within the philosophical writings of Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu, and their students so admired within all schools of Mahayana, but most especially the Tibetan schools. Ultimately, however, in my opinion, all that is of value in Mahayana and Vajrayana teaching, including the emphasis on emptiness, phenomenalism, and great compassion is present within the Tipitaka itself where the Buddhadhamma is to be found in a form as close to the word of the Buddha as we have available to us. There is, within Theravada, a vast commentarial tradition, both ancient and modern, such that if one includes within "Theravadin teachings", not only the Tipitaka itself, but also the ancient commentaries as reported by Buddhaghosa and the teachings within the various substreams of modern-day Theravada such as the Thai Forest Tradition, the "vipassana" traditions (of which there are several and varying), the movements which emphasize absorptive meditative states, those which emphasize "dry-insight" meditation, those which emphasize "mindulness at ordinary times", and those, with a number of representaves here, which de-emphasize meditation, but emphasize Abhidhamma, and stress the importance of studying and contemplating the word of the Buddha, one will find within Theravada much of the valuable "extras" of Mahayana and Vajrayana, and will also find the core teachings in their most pristine form. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38109 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 8:12am Subject: Buddhaghosa Created Theravada? (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > Dear Joop and all > Joop wrote: > > "And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started." > What do you mean by "(before Buddhagosa made a system ofTheravada)"? > If it were not your original idea, where did you get that? > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > Hallo Abhidhammika Who made a system of Christianity? Not Christ or his direct disciples. But a Paulus (formerly Saulus) in his moralistic letters; and scholastics in the (western) middle ages; and reformers like Luther. Making a system is for exemple not accepting that there are lose ends or any internal contradictions. How did I get the idea that Buddhaghosa played the most important role in making a system of Theravada? By reading chapter XXI, "Buddhaghosa, the Harmonizer", in "A History of Buddhist Philosopy. Continuities and Discontinuities" by David Kalupahana (University of Hawai Press, 1992) Some quotes of this chapter: "It is almost impossible to summarize the doctrines discussed in the Visuddhimagga. Unlike the reatises compiled by previous Buddhist scholars like nagarjuna and Vasubandhu, in which attemps were made to resurrect the original teachings of the Buddha by adopting various approaches prompted by the nature of the prevalent metaphysical ideas, Buddhaghosa's treatise is no more than an encyclopedical treatment of the path of purification, with the profuse use of the early discourses, and whatever was available in the Sinhalese commentaries, along with a variety of doctrines with which he was familiar before he arrived in Sri lanka. These latter include ideas emphasized by the Sarvastivadins, Sautrantikas, Madhyamikas, and Yogacarins. It is a gigantic synthesis. (page 208) … "The fourfold definition [of morality] demonstrates Buddhaghosa' scapacity to harmonize several strands of thought that had by then emerged in the Buddhist tradition. The categories that created much controversy among Buddhists - namely, the particular or the unique (sabhava=svabhava) and the universal or the abstract (samanna=samanya) - are here introduced under the guise of characteristics (lakhana=laksana), and came to be identified as such in later manuals." (page 210/211) … "Quoting a passage from the Samyutta-nikaya, where the Buddha maintains that a person who perceives suffering also perceives its arising, its cessation, and the path leading to its cessation, Buddhaghosa insists that all these four different activities take place simultaneously 'during one moment' (ekakkhane): For this is said by the Ancients (porana): Just as a lamp performs four functions simultaneously in a single moment - it burns the wick, dispels darkness, makes light appear, and uses up the oil - so, too, path-knowlegde penetrates to the four truths simultaneously in a single moment - it penetrates to suffering by penetrating to it with full understanding (parinna), penetrates to arising by penetrating to it with relinquishing (pahana), penetrates to the path by penetrating to it with cultivating (bhavana), and penetrates to ceasing by penetrating to it with realizing (saccikirya). This is a ingenious way of harmonizing two different paths - the gradual path, with which he began the treatise, and sudden realization based on momentary concentration (khanika-samadhi). It is also an interesting way to reconcile two philosophical standpoints - the foundationalism or essentialism with which he began the work, and the anti-foundationalism or anti-essentialism embodied in the three gateways to freedom (animitta, appanihita, and sunna). It is indeed a work of highest erudition on the part of a great harmonizer." (page 215/216) Metta Joop 38110 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Question 1: How can there be insight into the four noble truths before one has heard the Buddha's conceptual formulation of them? Answer: Realities are arising all the time. One of those realities that arrises very frequently is craving. This is a reality experienced by everyone, not just Buddhists. On occasion, there may be a clear comprehension that without craving, there is no suffering. There are many, many ways this could happen. An example: suppose craving for a certain sensation arises repeatedly over a period of time. The sequence of cravings is of course punctuated by the arising of other realities. One of these other realities may well be recognition that "there is no craving arising now." A fraction of a second later, there may well be the realization "craving has arisen." A fraction of a second later: "suffering". A fraction of a second later: "suffering is closely associated with craving." After a few repetitions of the realization, "suffering is inseparable from craving." Now, the insights occur in quick succession and are long gone before there can be any words put on them. Perhaps the insights are later conceptualized and verbalized or perhaps not. In either case, the impression they leave remains. Then, the words of the Buddha are heard: "Suffering is caused by desire." The words sound so true because they seem to describe so well some prior experience. The exact time, place, and context of the prior insights may are may not be recalled, but the words strike a chord because they accord with something really experienced. Others may hear the words and laugh at how silly they sound, but the one who had prior insight is drawn to the words. Questions: "...please also let me know who develops insight when it occurs outside the dispensation, whether in jhana development or in those 'with [a] sense of spirituality'." And, "When the words of the Buddha 'rang true' with our prior 'true insights', who had had these insights?" Answer: When insight arises, there is no idea of a "who" who has insight. Dan 38111 From: Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is a Practice : To Howard Hi, Suan (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/9/04 7:43:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, Ken H and all > > How are you? > > Howard, your responses to Ken's statements are sharply put and good > overall. > > But, the following exchange between Ken's statement and your reply > puzzled me, and needs your further clarification. > > > "Ken H : Even so, by studying and contemplating the > > >Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > >present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > >satipatthana to develop. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That sort of theoretical, intellectual "understanding" can advance > forever, but, by itself, will not lead to awakening. The Buddha > didn't teach a Noble One-Fold Path consisting of the single factor: > Study my theory." > -------------------------------------------- > > To help you start somewhere, how can studying and contemplating > Dhamma (namas and rupas) be regarded as a Noble One-fold Path? > > With regards, > > Suan > ======================== My point was that the "understand[ing] that namas and rupas are arising in the present moment" that comes about merely by "studying and contemplating the Dhamma," is an intellectual understanding that will not be sufficient for the direct knowing that pa~n~na is. As far as the "Noble One-Fold Path" business is concerned, what I see Ken as putting forward is a single-factor practice, with that factor being study. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38112 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 9:18am Subject: "One path" [Phil] Dear Phil, My first contact with Abhidhamma literature was similar to yours. In particular, the bare description of cittas and cetasikas seemed so bare of confusing ornaments and to-the-point -- very alluring. Phil: "...Ah, that might support your point. There *was* insight into anatta at that point, shallow insight, and only then did conceptual understanding of anatta have any value." I don't think it makes much sense to conceive of development of insight as beginning with namarupaparicchedañana and progressing by stages to higher and higher levels only after the previous "level" of insight has developed to a very refined and profound level. Instead, the process of development is one of deepening the insight, rather than going to different categories or "levels", as might be the impression after a quick reading of Mahasi or Vism. XX and XXI. Glancing through Vism. this morning, I found a section that seems to affirm the process I'm describing. [In general, Vism. XXI: 47-52 appears to address the issue of description and conceptualization as consolidation of insight as setting the stage for deeper insight later. In particular, Vism XXI: 51 (Ps.ii, 63) is interesting. More on this later...] Phil: "But that doesn't apply to the path factors, methinks." I don't believe the supramundane path factors can be understood outside the dispensation. Phil: "It's easier to gain a theoretical appreciation of them that we can apply and test and deepen in daily life - not the case for anatta." How is it that we can apply a theoretical appreciation? I don't understand what you mean. Metta, Dan 38113 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: Letters for Nina Dear Sarah and friends, op 02-11-2004 07:57 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Nina stops her mail when she's away and asks me to f/w any posts likely to > be of special interest to her on return. N: Thank you, Sarah, for writing. I have a jet lag, and an enormous amount of dirty washing from India. But first I want to keep my promise to Larry, catching up on the missed Vis. within one week. So there is no hurry with the other mails. Soon I shall get broad band and then it is easier to catch up on messages. Azita, you made a lot of tapes and it is good to discuss them while you go over them. This is a way of sharing with others. I went through all my tapes, making notes, while in the mountains in Sikkim. Lodewijk helps me with suggestions. I use his speech in Sarnath to the monks as a frame. Lodewijk will also read Kh. Sujin's Perfections for the foundation web. I shall write about India, but I am a slow writer and I take my time, Nina. 38114 From: Larry Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] There is a Practice : To Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > My point was that the "understand[ing] that namas and rupas are > arising in the > present moment" that comes about merely by "studying and contemplating the > Dhamma," is an intellectual understanding that will not be sufficient for the > direct knowing that pa~n~na is. As far as the "Noble One-Fold Path" business is > concerned, what I see Ken as putting forward is a single-factor practice, with > that factor being study. Hi Howard, This speaks to something I've been thinking about. Pa~n~na is either prompted or unprompted and the prompted variety is usually prompted with words. Prompted consciousness arises with less conviction than unprompted. Path or fruition consciousness is not prompted and is something different from what we usually mean by "understanding" or "pa~n~na". Nagarjuna didn't recognize a concept/reality distinction so the path he outlined was entirely intellectual. Perhaps we could say the abhidhamma of this group is avant-garde abhidhamma:-))) but I suspect Nina would say the study of abhidhamma is much more likely to condition the spontaneous arising of unprompted pa~n~na than sitting quietly and following one's breath or using directed attention to reason out one of the tilakkha.na from hardness, for example, and it is better to not hold out hope or strategy for path consciousness. Larry 38115 From: Larry Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Buddhaghosa Created Theravada? (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) Hi Joop and Suan, I haven't read Kalupahana but I also think Buddhaghosa created Theravada. I know there are many who call themselves Theravadins but don't like Buddhaghosa or abhidhamma, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, for example. Perhaps these people would be more properly classified as Sautrantikas, even though the Sautrantika tradition was a reaction to Sarvastivada, neither of which was aware of Theravada, as far as I know. I believe Sautrantika only recognized Sutta and Vinaya as authoritative (not sure?). Is there an official definition of who is and who isn't a Theravadin? "Thera" means elders; does that mean commentators? Also, Pali has something to do with 'being Theravada'. All the primary commentaries were compiled and translated into Pali by Buddhaghosa. These were originally in Indian Pali and translated into Sinhalese after they were brought to Sri Lanka with the Indian Pali Tipitaka by the arahant Mahinda in the 3rd century BC. What we know of the original Pali commentaries comes directly from Buddhaghosa. In that sense he is the founder of "modern" Theravada. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Joop and all > > How are you? > > > Joop wrote: > > "And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started." > > What do you mean by "(before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada)"? > > If it were not your original idea, where did you get that? > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw 38116 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "One path" [Phil] Hi Dan >Phil: "It's easier to gain a theoretical appreciation of them that we >can apply and test and deepen in daily life - not the case for >anatta." >How is it that we can apply a theoretical appreciation? I don't >understand what you mean. Nothing fancy here. I just mean that we can read about what Right Speech is, and try to speak that way. This is what we do at first, until we understand that conditions are at work that give rise to wrong speech, and those conditions have to be understood (in general) before any progress will be made. But the time we do mistakenly try to follow the 8-fold path by a kind of will power at least sets up understanding of how futile it is to try to become enlightneed by will power. Our failures, seen with honesty, can condition right understanding that eventually rolls around. All the times I vowed not to slander others, not to use harsh words. All the times I failed. At least when I use wrong speech now I am sometimes aware of it and know it as conditioned, and that moment of understanding may condition an abstention from wrong speech to come. So the theoretical understanding deepens from that beginning stage - thinking that Right Speech, for example, refers to a rule that we should follow by will power. We come to understand, in theory, that Right Speech is descriptive, rather than prescriptive, to use a phrase that someone here used. (Ken H?) It is the way of behaviour that may arise more and more often due to kusala conditions doing their thing. To be honest, I hardly ever find myself thinking about the Eightfold Path, because it seems to me that it is the way that will arise naturally as I penetrate the Four Truths and deepen my understanding of Dhamma. I think more about the Four Truths. So there you go. Maybe I am supporting your view again. There can be theoretical appreciation of the Path including conceptual right view, but the Path of more importance is the one that arises on its own through deepening insight? I'll make that a rhetorical question, if you don't mind. I'll follow your continuing debate with others, but my lazy accumulations discourage me from participating in them! Thanks again for your feedback. Metta, Phil 38117 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 3:23pm Subject: postponing understanding Hi Nina Welcome back. It doesn't feel like you've been away, actually, because I've been re-reading so many of your posts. Just one quick question before I forget. About two months ago, maybe, you mentioned a Pali term that has something to do with accepting that there are some things we don't understand yet, something to do with the skillfulness of letting go of things we can't understand yet. Do you know what I'm talking about? I think there was a reference to the Vinaya (sp?), that this is something taught to monks. If that rings a bell, could you refresh my memory? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 38118 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: New to Group/ clarification Hi Tyler, --------------- T: > {snip} "If we barely know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to know them directly?" I need further clarification here. > --------------- At any given moment, the universe described by the Buddha is a small collection of namas and rupas. For example, in a moment of seeing there are the rupas known as eye base and visible object and there are the namas known as eye consciousness, eye contact, volition, vitality, concentration, advertence, perception and [neutral] feeling. That is a purely resultant (vipaka) moment of consciousness, but in succeeding, impulsive (kammicly active) moments, mind-door consciousness experiences that same, visible object. In these moments there is no longer seeing but there is [wholesome or unwholesome] reaction either with detachment or with attachment (or aversion or ignorance) and with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling, and with several other mental factors (cetasikas (namas)). Furthermore, any of the namas that experience visible object can, themselves, become objects of consciousness. Even though namas fall away before the succeeding moment of consciousness, they resonate (as it were) and those resonations can be experienced (less than a billionth of a second later) at the mind door. In this way we can become aware, not only of the object of seeing, but also of a feeling or of an emotion or an intention (etc) that has arisen to experience that object. ---------------- T: > What does it mean to know a nama and/or rupa intellectually? > ---------------- The above is a simplistic explanation of namas and rupas and of the ways they are experienced. The Abhidhamma contains much more detailed (and more accurate) explanations. When we see the logic of those explanations, we have an intellectual understanding of nama and rupa. It should also be pointed out that, in moments when we are seeing the logic of explanations, we are not seeing nama or rupa, we are seeing ideas (illusions, concepts). Concepts are experienced at the mind-door in much the same way as namas and rupas are experienced. It is useful to experience concepts with wisdom, but this is not yet the practice taught by the Buddha. At best, it a preliminary practice (paryatti) that leads to actual practice (patipatti, satipatthana). ----------- T: > And what does it mean to know them directly? > ----------- Direct knowledge of namas and rupas is the practice taught by the Buddha. It is no different from any of the above-described kammicly active [wholesome] moments of consciousness except that it contains a nama known as panna (right understanding). Without panna, there would be no understanding of absolute reality (nama and rupa), and so we would be left with the impression that concepts are real. Were it not for the teaching of the Buddha, you and I would have to believe either that concepts (cars, trees, electrons, people and places) are real; or nothing is real. ---------------- T: > Also, what does it mean to say that things arise "conditionally"? ---------------- The namas and rupas that co-arise in a moment of consciousness condition (bring about, cause to arise) the namas and rupas of the immediately following moment of consciousness. Also, they condition each other. There are twenty-four forms of conditioning (paccaya). ----------- T: > On a general note, I will follow your advice and look into the anicent Theravada texts > ----------- It will be a major milestone in your life. To ease yourself into those difficult texts, you might begin with one of Nina's books such as 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life.' Kind regards, Ken H 38119 From: Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] postponing understanding Hi Phil, Nina is having Yahoo problems. She isn't receiving any email and I don't think she uses the web, so you might have to re-send this is a day or two when she gets it fixed. Larry ------------------------------ P: "Hi Nina Welcome back. It doesn't feel like you've been away, actually, because I've been re-reading so many of your posts. Just one quick question before I forget. About two months ago, maybe, you mentioned a Pali term that has something to do with accepting that there are some things we don't understand yet, something to do with the skillfulness of letting go of things we can't understand yet. Do you know what I'm talking about? I think there was a reference to the Vinaya (sp?), that this is something taught to monks. If that rings a bell, could you refresh my memory? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil" 38120 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 43-Feeling/Vedana (p) > Hello All > Nina> > We dislike domanassa and we would like to get rid of it, but we > > should understand that dosa can only be eradicated by the > > development of the wisdom which sees realities as they are. There > > is no other way. > Phil > One of the most helpful, basic points that I've been reminded of lately is > that > dosa mula cittas are always accompanied by moha mula cittas. > In other words, aversion is always accompanied by ignorance. > Aversion cannot arise without ignorance being at the root of it. > If we are not ignorant of the realities of the moment, we will not > have aversion. That's a very liberating concept that can be > confirmed in daily life. I received a nice confirmation of this yesterday. I was on the train, enjoying the quiet time that the 30 minutes gives me to reflect on things in the morning. A man stood in front of me. There was a noise. He was sucking his teeth in the way that middle-aged and older Japanese men do quite often. (Often as a substitute for toothpicks, I guess.) That sound infuriates me! I sat there seething, glaring up at him once. But then, when the train stopped at a station, I realized that the teeth-sucking noise had stopped. Soon enough I realized that he wasn't sucking his teeth, it was the creaking sound made by the ring he was holding on to. (They dangle from train roofs for people to hold on to.) So all that aversion caused by ignorance of what was actually going on. Of course, when we say "ignorance of realities" it is ignorance much subtler than the ignorance involved in this incidence, but it still applies in a crude way. This incident reminded me of Rob K's anecdote (I heard via Nina) about the time he feelt something soft and puffy pressing against him in a crowded train, and assuming it was a woman, only to find out later that it was a man's down jacket. In his case there was lobha rather than dosa invovled. (I would hope!) But another reminder that akusala cittas are always rooted in ignorance. Metta, Phil p.s sorry for the double posting in this thread. I thought the first version had been erased. p.p.s Thanks Larry for the info about Nina's situation. 38121 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 10:49pm Subject: Re: "Develop!" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Robert, > > Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving, as > much as other dhammas, can > be an object for understanding. .... There > is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point in > time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower. I > have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high > success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of > energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can > manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set in > place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And > similarly with panna? > > Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct > vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to say 'Panna' > knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is > still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't > mention Me. >============= Dear Christine, The reason we use language like 'panna know' is only as a rhetorical device to bring attention to the fact that it is in fact not my seeing but only an element. Of course one can speak like that and still believe and cling to self view. We can think 'there is no self' but still believe it is me who chose to think like that! When we are concerned with making the conditions for insight to arise, what is present? Only by seeing actaul relaities as they arise will any understanding develop. Certainly there are many conditions that are supportive of insight- hearing true Dhamma, pondering it...discusion with wise friends. Even keeping house and body clean are helpful. But if there isn't direct awareness , to some degree, of the present moment, in whatever situation, then insight will remain shallow. Also other mental factors such as saddha strenghthen insight, and of course insight strenghthes saddha too. Robertk 38122 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 11:49pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 45 - Feeling/Vedana (r) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Upekkhå, indifferent feeling, is different from somanassa and from domanassa; it is neither happy nor unhappy. Upekkhå can arise with cittas of all four jåtis, but it does not arise with every citta. When there is no awareness many moments of feeling pass unnoticed. There is feeling with every citta and when we do not notice any feeling there is still feeling: at such moments there is indifferent feeling. We may not feel either glad or unhappy while we are busy with our work or while we are thinking. Then there is indifferent feeling. Indifferent feeling accompanies vipåkacittas such as seeing or hearing. It can accompany lobha-múla-citta; this type of citta can be accompanied either by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Do we notice clinging which is accompanied by upekkhå? When we walk or when we get hold of different things we use in our daily life, such as a pen or a book, there is bound to be clinging even when we do not feel particularly glad. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38123 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: >On occasion, there may > be a clear comprehension that without craving, there is no suffering. ….. S: Is this the deep penetrative insight into the characteristic of a reality or is it thinking about suffering – a kind of conceptual understanding? ….. >….A fraction of a > second later, there may well be the realization "craving has arisen." > A fraction of a second later: "suffering". A fraction of a second > later: "suffering is closely associated with craving." After a few > repetitions of the realization, "suffering is inseparable from > craving." ….. ….. S: Suffering as a characteristic of what? I’m still hoping you’ll answer my earlier question: S: “These ‘shallower insights’, defined by you as ‘most any insight short of supramundane path consciousness’, were into precisely what realities before we studied the ‘Buddha’s words’? What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to refer to? ….. > Answer: When insight arises, there is no idea of a "who" who has > insight. ….. S: When we haven’t heard and really considered the Buddha’s words, who do we think has any insights, experiences, good or bad qualities, either before, lurking behind the experiences or afterwards? If there is no precise understanding of dhammas, of namas and rupas, is it possible to develop any detachment from an idea of self at all? Do you think there’s any chance you could be mistaken and that without realizing the first stage of insight – the clear knowledge and insight into namas and rupas – that higher levels of insight cannot be attained? ***** I understand the 4 Noble Truths to be extremely profound and subtle – so profound and subtle that the Buddha was inclined not to teach them and when he did so, many were not able to even attain to this first stage of insight. The Path is very gradual when there is the development of understanding which conditions detachment, not attachment when it’s right. For a clear description of the way that pariyatti leads to patipatti to pativedha as I understand it, please read KenH’s excellent description in his post to Tyler (38118). A brief extract: “Without panna, there would be no understanding of absolute reality (nama and rupa), and so we would be left with the impression that concepts are real. Were it not for the teaching of the Buddha, you and I would have to believe either that concepts (cars, trees, electrons, people and places) are real; or nothing is real.” From Sammohavinodani, ch2, Classification of the Bases, 242: “The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Enlightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened Ones”. A little later: “The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatuvinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.” Without any understanding of the elements as anatta, there cannot be any insight (vipassana) into realities or the attainment of even the first stage of insight as I understand. I think Phil and possibly Ken O in an earlier posts have stressed this aspect too. The Visuddhimagga also discusses sacca-~naa.na (knowledge of the truth) which it divides into ‘knowledge as idea and knowledge as penetration’ (XV1,84). Sacca nana is firm understanding of the 4 Noble Truths as I understand, even when it is right understanding conceptually about the Truths, such as the truth of Nibbana, not yet realized. Without knowledge based on hearing the Truths, there cannot be any sacca nana. “Herein knowledge as idea is mundane and *occurs through hearsay, etc,* about cessation and the path……….When this knowledge is mundane, then, occurring as the overcoming of obsessions, the knowledge of suffering then forestalls the [false] idea of individuality…….etc” “As long as a man is vague about the world, About its origin, about its ceasing, About the means that lead to its cessation, So long he cannot recognize the truths.” Looking forward to your answers to the questions above, Dan. Metta, Sarah ======= 38124 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 110 and Tiika. Text Vis. XIV, 110: So the 21 kinds of profitable, the 12 kinds of unprofitable, the 36 kinds of resultant, and the 20 kinds of functional, amount in all to 89 kinds of consciousness. N: The 21 kinds of kusala cittas are: 8 kusala cittas of the sense sphere (kaamaavacara), 12 kinds of akusala cittas (rooted in lobha, in dosa and in moha). As to the 36 kinds of vipaakacittas: these are 8 sahetuka vipaaka (kusala vipaaka with roots), 8 ahetuka kusala vipaaka, 7 ahetuka akusala vipaaka, 5 ruupaavacara (ruupajhaana) kusala vipaaka, 4 aruupaavacara (aruupajhaana) kusala vipaaka and 4 lokuttara vipaaka (phalacittas, fruition-consciousness). As to the 20 kiriyacittas, there are 3 ahetuka kiriyacittas, 8 mahaakiriyacittas (of the sense-sphere) of the arahat, 5 ruupaavacara kiriyacittas and 4 aruupaavacara kiriyacittas (of the arahat). This may seem to be a technical summing up, but all these 89 kinds of cittas are realities, each with their own characteristic. If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught the Dhamma we would not know about the different kinds of cittas. We would take akusala citta rooted in attachment with pleasant feeling for kusala citta. We would take selfish affection for lovingkindness. The Buddha¹s teaching about the different cittas is of infinite value for our daily life. The kaamaavacara cittas which are kusala, akusala and avyaakata (vipaaka and kiriya) occur in daily life time and again. They are cittas, not a person. They each have their own characteristic. They arise at the appropriate base and experience the appropriate object. Seeing experiences only visible object, hearing experiences only sound. Cittas do not know each other¹s object. We should not merely know the names of the different cittas. When we consider their different characteristics there are conditions for the arising of sati and paññaa. Direct understanding can begin to penetrate the different characteristics of cittas. Text Vis: And these occur in the fourteen modes of (a) rebirth-linking, (b) life-continuum, (c) adverting, (d) seeing, (e) hearing, (f) smelling, (g) tasting, (h) touching, (i) receiving, (j) investigating, (k) determining, (l) impulsion, (m) registration, and (n) death. N: There are fourteen functions of citta. The Tiika states that there are no other functions except these fourteen. Each citta performs its own function. The cittas that arise in a process do so according to a fixed order. The javana-cittas (akusala cittas or kusala cittas) of the sense-door process arise after the determining-consciousness (vo.t.thappaana-citta) and the javana-cittas in a mind-door process arise after the mind-door adverting-consciousness. Nobody, not even the Buddha, can change the fixed order of cittas (citta niyama). ***** Nina. 38125 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:19am Subject: RobM - kamma-patha qus Hi RobM, I did probe that 'grey area' or 'fine line' a little more with K.Sujin on the trip and Nina was with me for at least one or two of the discussions. What I understand clarifies a few of the blurry edges around some of my earlier comments. I think it's still correct to say that when it's not kamma patha, it's just an accumulation, but here's a little more: In real brief, I think the answer is that there are: a)kamma as an accumulation only in the javana processes which of course supports other kamma etc, but doesn't in itself bring results. E.g simple likes and dislikes now as we talk, drink coffee, see an insect etc. b)kamma as kamma patha with all the factors fulfilled which can bring results in the way of rebirth consciousness and during life. E.g deliberately killing an insect. c)kamma as kamma patha 'grey area', with only *some* of the factors fulfilled, which cannot bring results in the way of rebirth consciousness, but can bring results during life. E.g hurting or intending to hurt an insect but not killing it perhaps. K.Sujin's advice to me: "Don't look for the fine line". Otherwise, it's clinging or trying to know again or speculating (as Dan might well say in this case, such as in my last example), instead of developing understanding and awareness of the present reality. Who can know the cause of the present seeing consciousness now? Hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ======= 38126 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:17am Subject: Htoo's Cetasikas Dear Htoo, I think your Dhamma Thread posts on the cetasikas were really excellent and I enjoy your descriptions which really show up these factors for me. They brought many a smile to my face as I read about the various kings, queens, ministers and other officials;-). I also enjoyed your repetitions and clarifications and lists and so on. I think it’s very useful material. Most importantly, I think the content was very solid and accurate for the most part (as far as I know;-)). A few extra comments: O90 Ahirika and Anottappa – you referred to 9 bala dhamma (#37526) (owers). I’m interested as I don’t remember reading about akusala bala dhamma. I’d be glad if you’d say more on these. I only know about the 5 included in the bodhipakkiya dhammas. ‘As bala dhamma, ahirika and anottapa always lead all akusala dhamma….’ Very good. No shame about akusala at these times. Your comments on sati and many other factors were particularly good. There were one or two points on a couple of others I meant to pick up on – I think Phil questioned one that was not quite so clear – but it’ll have to be later if and when I come across them again. I rather rushed to catch up after our holiday and I want to thank you now, rather than looking for the others. Anumodana….great work indeed! i hope the series continues to a 1000!!It's your best, I think. Metta, Sarah ====== 38127 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:59am Subject: Posts from India - links Dear Nina & other recent pilgrims to India, As you will have missed many of the posts written while we were in India and since our return, I’ll give the links here of them all to date (I hope) for anyone to read if they wish. Nina, I know it may be difficult for you to check the links before you have your computer problems sorted out. Perhaps you can just take a note of the message number and check them later (or ask someone to help you). India Oct 04 ============== Sarah to All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37541 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37579 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37874 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37876 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37770 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37877 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37848 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37900 Joop to Sarah and All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37775 Sarah to Joop http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37978 Jonothan to All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37678 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37708 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37833 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37873 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38023 Nina to All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37849 Howard to Jon, Nina and All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37680 Philip to Sarah and All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37581 Philip to Nina and All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37850 Christine to All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37851 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37952 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38024 Azita to All http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37898 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37939 I know there will be further letters about the trip and discussions, but as everyone is back now, I won’t continue to list them. Metta, Sarah p.s. If anyone knows of any I’ve missed, pls add them. I haven’t included a couple of one-liner good wishes to all of us on our journey. ===== 38128 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 43-Feeling/Vedana (p) Hi Phil, I like all your comments and appreciate your interest in the Cetasika posts -- pls repeat them as often as you feel inclined!The second one was very good too. And yes, about the whining - I don't hear anyone whining about the lobha;-). Usually it's 'my' dosa and domanassa isn't it? No detachment from the realities at these times. I came across an excellent post of yours on visible object too - but not in front of me now. Metta, Sarah ======== --- plnao wrote: > Phil > One of the most helpful, basic points that I've been reminded of > lately is > > that > > dosa mula cittas are always accompanied by moha mula cittas. > > In other words, aversion is always accompanied by ignorance. > > Aversion cannot arise without ignorance being at the root of it. > > If we are not ignorant of the realities of the moment, we will not > > have aversion. That's a very liberating concept that can be > > confirmed in daily life. 38129 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:12am Subject: Oh Madam! Dear all, Communication is difficult even when you think two people are speaking the same language. On this particular morning in India, I realised that I had no rupee notes for the days' expenses. I approached the Hotel Front Desk, passport, credit card and American dollars at the ready, and the following conversation took place: CF: "I will be leaving the Hotel in half an hour on an all-day excursion and I need to change some money. Can you help please?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, certainly we can help. You will simply need to speak with the Cashier, who will be only too pleased to assist" Happy smile. CF: "Where will I find the Cashier?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, the Cashier will be available at this desk. If you speak to him you will be able to change whatever currency you like." Confident smile. CF: "Can you contact him please?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, the Cashier will be available at this desk - at 10.00 a.m." Tentative smile. CF: "But my party is leaving the Hotel at 7.30 a.m. and I won't be back until late this evening, and I need to change money now?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, we can certainly help you to change your money. Our Cashier will be only too pleased to assist" Kindly smile. CF: "Thank-you. Can you call him now please?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, the Cashier is not available until 10.00 a.m." Apologetic smile. CF: "Yes, but we are leaving the Hotel before that. 10.00 a.m. is too late for me as the bus leaves in half an hour, and I need the money now" Concierge: "Oh Madam, it is 10.00 a.m. that the Cashier will be available." Uncertain smile. CF: "But why can't the Cashier help me now? - - why isn't he available until 10.00 a.m.?" Concierge: "Oh Madam, I am truly sorry - that is The Rule - you can change whatever currency you like - at 10.00 a.m." Pitying smile. CF: "But I have to travel all day, and I have no Indian rupees" Concierge: "Oh Madam, that is certainly of concern, and we can help. You will simply need to speak with the Cashier, who will be only too pleased to assist." Patient smile. The thing that REALLY got to me .... guess who the Cashier was, chameleon smile and all? Circular conversations and pure frustration ... most of us experienced one or two of these. It was quite infuriating, but strangely fascinating. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38130 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 110 and Tiika. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Text Vis. XIV, 110: So the 21 kinds of profitable, the 12 kinds of unprofitable, the 36 kinds of resultant, and the 20 kinds of functional, amount in all to 89kinds of consciousness. N: The 21 kinds of kusala cittas are: 8 kusala cittas of the sense sphere(kaamaavacara), 12 kinds of akusala cittas (rooted in lobha, in dosa and in moha). As to the 36 kinds of vipaakacittas: these are 8 sahetuka vipaaka (kusala vipaaka with roots), 8 ahetuka kusala vipaaka, 7 ahetuka akusala vipaaka, 5 ruupaavacara (ruupajhaana) kusala vipaaka, 4 aruupaavacara(aruupajhaana) kusala vipaaka and 4 lokuttara vipaaka (phalacittas,fruition-consciousness). As to the 20 kiriyacittas, there are 3 ahetuka kiriyacittas, 8 mahaakiriyacittas (of the sense-sphere) of the arahat, 5 ruupaavacara kiriyacittas and 4 aruupaavacara kiriyacittas (of the arahat). ..snip..snip..snip... ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, I have 2 points to talk about. 1st: 21 kusala cittas are 8 kamavacara mahakusala cittas, 5 rupakusala cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, and 4 lokuttara kusala cittas ( 8 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 21 cittas ) 2nd: Once you advised me about 'vipaka and kusala' should not mix. I agreed. I agree. This time you include 'kusala' adjective in rupavipaka and arupavipaka. I would prefer not to add 'kusala' here in cases of rupavipaka cittas and arupavipaka cittas. They are just enough. When I mixed 'kusala' and 'vipaka', I just added as adjective to ahetuka vipaka cittas. They are 8 kusala vipaka cittas and 7 akusala vipaka cittas. In this case, 'adjective' 'akusala' and 'kusala' do need to be added. Otherwise both 8 and 7 are all vipaka cittas and they both are ahetuka vipaka cittas. With respect, Htoo Naing 38131 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 116 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have discussed on 4 mahabhuta rupas, 5 pasada rupas and 7 gocara rupas or 7 visaya rupas ( after exclusion of three rupas which are pathavi, tejo, and vayo there are 4 gocara rupa left out of 7 ) totalling 13 paramattha rupas. There are 2 bhava rupas. They are itthatta bhava rupa and purisatta bhava rupa. They are femaleness and maleness. Itthi means 'feminine' 'female', purisa means 'musculine' 'male', atta means 'being' 'body' 'hood', bhava means 'existence'. These rupas are realities. But they are known just only through manodvara not through panca dvara. They both are kammaja ekam rupa. That is they are caused only by kamma and no other causes raise their arising. So up to this point there have been 15 rupas. There is a rupa called hadaya rupa. It serves as hadaya vatthu. It is the base for all vinnana cittas except pancavinnana citta while satta concerned is in pancavokara bhumi or where all five aggregates are there. This rupa is also caused by kamma only. So far there have been discussed on 16 rupas. There are a rupa which supports all co-existing rupas. This rupa is called jivita rupa. Without this rupa jivita all other rupas will not exist as rupas of living beings. It is also generated by kamma only. Till now there have been 17 rupas. There is a rupa called ahara rupa. It supports other rupa while they are co-existing in an aggregate of rupa called rupa kalapa. It is also called oja. So far 18 rupas have been described. All these 18 rupas are called nipphanna rupa. They are under the influence of one or more of 4 causes called kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. Nipphanna means 'being accomplished' 'perfected' 'conditioned' 'determined'. Nipphanna rupas are conditioned rupas and they all are under the influences of one or more of the 4 great causes namely kamma, utu or temperature, citta or consciousness, and ahara or nutriment. There are 10 paramattha rupas. They all are not perfected. They are not conditioned. They are not determined. They are rupas that are not being accomplished. But they stand on their own and they do have their own characteristics. They are 1 pariccheda rupa, 2 vinatti rupas, 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4 lakkhana rupas. Pariccheda rupa is rupa that separates mahabhuta rupa so that mahabhuta rupa in kalapas are not mixed each other. It limits the boundry of rupa kalapas. It is not a component of rupa kalapa. It is like a space. It is like an empty interval. It is sometimes called akasa. It is a rupa but it is not influenced by any outside causes. 2 vinatti rupas are the gesture or kayavinatti rupa and the speech or vacivinatti rupa. Kayavinatti rupa is the gesture or the act of a living being that carries some exact meaning while vacivinatti is a rupa which is a sound that bears some exact meaning in it which is generated by a living being. It is not just a speech but any sound that is produced through consciousness. Both kayavinatti and vacivinatti are called cittaja rupa and they are purely generated by citta alone. To further on these 2 vinatti rupas, those gestures and sounds that appear on any films, movies, television, DVDs, VCDs, computers, etc etc are not vinatti rupas even though these may carry meanings in them. Even sound that appear from speakers or sound-boxes are not vinatti rupas. Still there are sounds that are produced by a speaking man which are not vinatti rupas. That man does not have voice-box in his throat. It is removed by operation for a disease like cancer. He uses a sound producer proding at his throat whenever he speaks. It is not vinatti rupa even though it is understandable. There are 3 lahutadi rupa. They are rupalahuta, rupamuduta, and rupakammannata rupa. They are lightness of rupa, tenderness or pliability of rupa and adaptability of rupa. They can be caused by citta, utu, and ahara. They are never caused by kamma. When these three rupa are there in rupa kalapa, all rupa that co-exist with them become lighter, more tender or pliable and more adaptable. There are 4 lakkhana rupa. They are upacaya rupa or rupa in initial formation, santati rupa or rupa in continueing formation and jarata or rupa in decay and aniccata or rupa just disappears. All these 4 lakkhana rupa are the characteristics of other rupa and they all are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their causes. All together these 10 rupas are called anipphana rupas while former 18 rupas are called nipphana rupas. Therefore, there are in total 28 paramattha rupa which are all realities and can be sensed by one of our 6 senses. Rupa or vanna is sensed only by eyes, sadda or sound is sensed only by ear, gandha or smell is sensed only by nose, rasa or taste is sensed only by tongue. And pathavi, tejo, vayo-three of mahabhuta rupa are sensed by body only. All other rupas that is 5 pasada rupas and 16 sukhuma rupas or subtle materials are all sensed by mind only; that is 5 pasada rupas and 16 sukhuma rupa can never be sensed by any of eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38132 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "One path" [Phil] > But the time we > do mistakenly try to follow the 8-fold path by a kind of will power > at least sets up understanding of how futile it is to try to become > enlightneed by will power. Our failures, seen with honesty, > can condition right understanding that eventually rolls around. I think you're right about this. Dan 38133 From: Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Oh Madam! Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/10/04 7:15:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > The thing that REALLY got to me .... guess who the Cashier was, > chameleon smile and all? > > ====================== Omigod! ;-)) Hmm, reminds me, though, of some conversations I've had with bureaucrats in the U.S and with occasional posters on email lists! (Not here, of course! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38134 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 117 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, All rupas do not have any root dhamma called hetu like lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha and they( rupas )all are called ahetuka. Rupas are all arise along with their causes or paccayas and they are called sappaccaya. Rupas are the objects of 4 asava dhamma and they are called sasava. Asava means 'spirit' 'intoxicant extracted from a tree or flower' 'dischage from a sore' 'intoxicating idea' 'to flow'. There are 4 asava dhammas namely kamasava ( kama ), bhavasava ( bhava ), ditthasava ( ditthi ) and avijjasava ( avijja or moha ). All rupas are assoiacted with these dhamma and they intoxicate. So all rupa dhammas are sasava dhamma. Kamma, citta, utu, and ahara all influence arising of rupa and so rupas are called sankhata. Sankhata means 'brought about' 'created ' 'conditioned'. Rupas are part of sankhara loka and they are the objects of upadana or clinging. So all rupas are called lokiya. Rupas are where kama tanha always visits and attaches and they are called kamavacara. Rupas are just objects and they cannot take any object and they cannot know object. They are called anarammana. Rupas cannot be removed or cannot be deleted and they are called appahatabba. Even though there is one in terms of character still there are many different kinds of rupas ( 28 ). 5 pasada rupas stay inside of beings and they are called ajjattika rupa. Ajjhattika means 'inside' 'intrinsic'. Other 23 rupas are called bahira rupas. Bahira means 'outside' extrinsic'. 5 pasada rupas are panca vatthus and hadaya rupa is hadaya vatthu. These 6 rupas are vatthu rupas. Other 22 rupas are avatthu rupas. Vatthu means 'real things' 'substance' 'object' 'property' 'ground'. 5 pasada rupas are door way for objects or arammanas and so do 2 vinatti rupa and these 7 rupas are called dvara rupas. Other 21 rupas are called advara rupas. Dvara means 'door'. They serve as doorway for information. 5 pasada rupas are indriya rupas. 2 bhava rupas are also indriya rupas and jivita rupa is also indriya rupas. These 8 rupas are called indriya rupas and other 20 rupas are called anindriya rupas. Indriya means 'governing' 'controlling' 'ruling' 'faculty'. 5 pasada rupas and 7 visaya rupas or 7 gocara rupas are rough rupas and they are called olarika (rough) rupas. They are almost understandable and close to understanding. They are also called santike(close) rupas. These 12 rupas are associated with touching and they are called sappatigha(touching, hitting) rupas. Other 16 rupas are called sukhuma rupas or subtle materials. They are also called dure(far) rupas as they are far from easy understandability. And they are called appatigha(non-touched) rupas as they are not touched. Rupas caused by kamma such as 4 mahabhuta rupas, 5 pasada rupas, 4 (7) gocara rupas, 2 bhava rupas, 1 jivita rupa, 1 hadaya rupa, and 1 ahara rupa are called upadinna rupas. Other 10 rupas are not caused by kamma and they are called anupadinna rupas. Only ruparammana or vanna/rupa is the only rupa that can be seen and it is called sanidassana(with-seeing) rupa and other 27 rupas are called anidassana rupas. 5 pasada rupas are called gocaraggahika( object- bearing) rupas as they can convey arammana. Other 23 rupas are called agocaraggahika rupas. Vanna, gandha, rasa, oja or ahara, pathavi, tejo, vayo and apo always co-exist and they are called avinibbhoga or inseparable rupas and other 20 rupas are called vinibbhoga rupas. There are kamma that can cause kammaja rupas. These kamma are 12 akusala kamma, 8 kamavacara kusala kamma, and 5 rupavacara kusala kamma altogether 25 kamma can cause kammaja rupas or rupas generated by kamma. Among 89 cittas, 10 pancavinnana cittas and 4 arupa vipaka cittas do not cause rupas. There are 75 cittas left, which can cause rupas. Patisandhi cittas in all sattas and cuticitta in all arahats do not cause rupas. Other 75 cittas cause cittaja rupas. Some cittas cause rupas that support iriyapatha or body positions. Some cittas cause vinatti rupas and some cause smiling. There is ajjattika utu which are sita(cold) tejo and unnha(hot/warm) tejo arise with patisandhi. These utu or tejo when they are in contact with bahiddhaka(outside) tejo can cause arising of utuja rupas starting from thikhana of patisandhi or linking consciousness. There are rupa kalapas. The simplest form is suddhattha rupa kalapa. These are collections of inseparable rupas or avinibbhoga rupa. Ahara or oja in that kalapa is the main cause for arising of aharaja rupas. This ajjattika ahara has to combine with bahiddhika ahara and they both cause arising of aharaja rupas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38135 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:03am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 108 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Vis. XIV, 108 and Tiika. ..snip..snip..snip.. It is explained in the Expositor (II, p. 388) that ordinary persons laugh with four types of citta: four kusala cittas accompanied by joy, and four lobha-muula-cittas accompanied by joy. When we laugh, there are usually lobha-muulacittas. Arahats smile with four mahaa-kiriyacittas accompanied by joy and with one type of ahetuka kiriyacitta accompanied by joy. The latter type of citta is ahetuka, it is without the hetus of alobha, adosa and paññaa. The cittas of the arahat are not always accompanied by paññaa. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your explanation on VM regarding 3 ahetuka cittas. As you said, the cittas of the arahats are not ALWAYS accompanied by panna. When we look into javana cittas, arahats can have 1. 1 arahatta phala citta 2. 4 arupakiriya cittas 3. 5 rupakiriya cittas 4. 4 kamavacara nana sampayutta cittas 5. 4 kamavacara nana vippayutta cittas 6. 1 hasituppada citta ( ahetuka citta ) ----------------------- 19 cittas as arahatta's javanas The first 4 kinds are always accompanied by panna. But the last 2 kinds do not have panna. To the worst the last which is hasituppada citta do not have both panna and sati. As soon as sati disappears Even The Buddha has to smile. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38136 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 118 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 28 rupas, 1.cakkhu (eye), 2.sota (ear), 3.ghana (nose), 4.jivha(tongue), 5.kaya (body), 6.itthattabhava ( femaleness), 7.punbhava (maleness), 8.hadaya (heart or seat of mind/ not physical heart organ), and 9.jivita rupa(life-continuum) altogether 9 rupas are only caused by kamma. No other dhammas cause arising of these 9 rupas. Kayavinatti(gesture) and vacivinatti(speech) rupas are solely caused by citta(mind). Sadda(sound) can be caused by utu(temperature or weather) or citta. Rupalahuta, rupamuduta, and rupakammannata are not caused by kamma. These three can be caused by citta, utu and ahara. 1.Pathavi(solidity), 2.tejo(temperature), 3.vayo (motion/movement/compressibility), 4.apo(fluidity), 5.vanna(colour), 6.gandha(smell), 7.rasa(taste), 8.ahara(nutriment), and 9.pariccheda (akasa or space) can be caused by any of kamma, citta, utu or ahara. 4 lakkhana rupas are not caused by any of kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. These four rupas are called na kutoci rupas. They do not have any causes because they themselves are the 4 main characteristics of all other 24 rupas. Even though there are 28 paramattha rupas, they do not arise in isolation. At least some arise together. And they vanish together. They have to arise on mahabhuta rupas and they co-exist in a form called rupa kalapa. There are 21 rupa kalapas. 9 kalapas are kammaja rupa kalapas or congregation of rupa caused by kamma, 6 are cittaja, 4 are utuja and 2 are aharaja rupa kalapas. Kammaja rupa kalapas are cakkhudassaka, sotadassaka, ghanadassaka, jivhadassaka, kayadassaka,ithibhavadassaka, punbhavadassaka, vatthudassaka, and jivitanava kalapa. In cakkhudassaka kalapa, there are 8 avinibbhoga rupas, jivita rupa and cakkhu pasada rupa altogether 10 rupas arise together. Other kammaja kalapas are the same and just to replace cakkhu with their correspondent rupa. Jivitanava kalapa is a combination of 8 avinibbhoga rupas and jivita rupa itself. 6 cittaja rupa kalapas are 1.suddhattha kalapa which comprises 8 avinibbhoga rupas only, 2. kayavinattinava kalapa which comprises 8 rupas and kayavinatti rupa, 3. vacivinatti saddadassaka kalapa which is compsed of 8 rupas, vacivinatti and sadda, 4. lahutadi ekadassaka kalapa which is combination of 8 rupas and 3 lahutadi rupas, 5. kayavinatti lahutadi dvadassa kalapa which comprises 8 rupas, 3 lahutadi and kayavinatti rupa, and 6. vacivinatti sadda lahutadi terasaka kalapa which includes 8 rupas, 3 lahutadi, vacivinatti and sadda rupa. 4 utuja kalapas are 1.suddhattha kalapa, 2. saddanava kalapa, 3. lahutadiekadassaka kalapa which comprises 8 rupas and 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4. sadda lahutadi dvadassaka kalapa which comprises 8 rupas, 3 lahutadi rupa, and sadda rupa. 2 aharaja rupa kalapas are suddhattha rupa lakapa and lahutadiekadassaka rupa kalapa which comprises 8 inseparable rupas and 3 lahutadi rupas. From the 4 utuja rupa kalapas, suddhattha rupa kalapa and saddanava rupa kalapa can arise outside of beings or sattas. All other rupa kalapas only arise as ajjattika. So life-less materials in this universe are all collections of 8 inseparable rupas and 1 rupa which is sadda. All scientific materials are finally these 9 paramattha rupas when they are viewed with paramattha scope while other 19 paramattha rupas can never be seen by microscopes or nanoscopes or electron microscope or electron nanoscope. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38137 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:42am Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Thanks for the great questions! > >D: On occasion, there may > > be a clear comprehension that without craving, there is no suffering. > ….. > S: Is this the deep penetrative insight into the characteristic of a > reality or is it thinking about suffering – a kind of conceptual > understanding? Penetrative insight. Deep? Yes, deep. There is a substantial difference in the degree of development of understanding of reality between someone who has had such insight and one who has not. This understanding may have only a subtle outward manifestation in subsequent living -- a nagging sense of dissatisfaction with the cycle of craving-attaining-"satisfaction"- craving, etc. [I write the "satisfaction" in quotes because it is realized that the appeasement of the craving is really not satisfying because it is both superficial and temporary.] (Please keep in mind that this is only an example, and that there are many, many, MANY variations that make it *impossible* to judge the depth of development in another by any simple "test".) At the same time, the insight is quite shallow. It may not be deep enough even to inspire the construction of an explicit conceptual formulation for the insight, in which case it would not be discussed, thought about very much, or consolidated in any meaningful way. Without consolidation, deeper insight may not have occasion to arise for a long, long time. Shallow also in the sense that the 4NT are extremely deep, and insight into them is developed gradually, over long periods of time. > >….A fraction of a > > second later, there may well be the realization "craving has arisen." > > A fraction of a second later: "suffering". A fraction of a second > > later: "suffering is closely associated with craving." After a few > > repetitions of the realization, "suffering is inseparable from > > craving." ….. > ….. > S: Suffering as a characteristic of what? The presently arising moment. > I'm still hoping you'll answer my earlier question: > > S: "These `shallower insights', defined by you as `most any insight short > of supramundane path consciousness', were into precisely what realities > before we studied the `Buddha's words'? Namas & rupas, their characteristics, and their relations. Obviously, though, before studying the Buddha's words we wouldn't describe them in that way. > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to refer to? The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind states, all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and dukkha. > > Answer: When insight arises, there is no idea of a "who" who has > > insight. > ….. > S: When we haven't heard and really considered the Buddha's words, who do > we think has any insights, experiences, good or bad qualities, either > before, lurking behind the experiences or afterwards? At moments of insight, there is no idea or sense of "who". Afterwards, the insight can easily be mangled by constructing a conceptual scheme that includes an idea of a "who" that has insights. In fact, the tendency for the mind to conceptualize a Self is staggeringly strong. This is true for the Buddhist as well as for the Buddhist. The difference is that EVENTUALLY, the Buddhist may eradicate this tendency and attain enlightenment. > If there is no precise understanding of dhammas, of namas and rupas, is it > possible to develop any detachment from an idea of self at all? I believe not -- unless when you say "precise understanding", you really mean being able to fluently rattle off racks of Pali terms and logically piece together their definitions and relations. I'm not at all convinced that conceptualization about things that are not truly understood (i.e., speculation) is not helpful. > Do you think there's any chance you could be mistaken and that without > realizing the first stage of insight – the clear knowledge and insight > into namas and rupas – that higher levels of insight cannot be attained? That's an oddly worded question, Sarah. The "higher levels" surely cannot be attained without attaining the lower levels first. But that is beside the point. Insight begins shallow and gradually deepens. If you like to look at the "levels of insight" through a hierarchy of: 1. Namarupaparicchedañana; 2. Paccayapariggahañana; 3. Sammasanañana; 4. Udayabbayañana; 5. Bhangañana; etc., that's fine. Then, with only a relatively shallow (but direct and penetrative) insight at level 1, the other insights are possible (and do arise) but only at a similar degree of depth. These insights are gradually developed to greater and greater depth in concert, going "up and down" the list repeatedly. The notion that a thorough and very deep understanding of namarupapariccheda is prerequisite for even relatively shallow insight into the other characteristics CAN slow the development of insight by hindering the conceptualization and consolidation of the other insights. It doesn't NECESSARILY slow the development, though, because these several aspects of insight that you call "levels" are closely related. Some people may benefit more from dwelling on the language of namarupaparicchedañana, while others may benefit more from hearing different kinds of language and different aspects of insight. > I understand the 4 Noble Truths to be extremely profound and subtle – so > profound and subtle that the Buddha was inclined not to teach them and > when he did so, many were not able to even attain to this first stage of > insight. The Path is very gradual when there is the development of > understanding which conditions detachment, not attachment when it's > right. Right. > For a clear description of the way that pariyatti leads to patipatti to > pativedha as I understand it, please read KenH's excellent description in > his post to Tyler (38118). > > A brief extract: > > "Without panna, there would be no understanding of absolute reality (nama > and rupa), and so we would be left with the impression that concepts are > real. Were it not for the teaching of the Buddha, you and I would have to > believe either that concepts (cars, trees, electrons, people and places) > are real; or nothing is real." "Belief" is quite different from insight. "Belief" is an allegiance to a concept, but insight is seeing directly the nature of reality. After insight arises and passes away, it is conceptualized in terms of our beliefs. Some beliefs are not at all conducive to development of deeper insight, some beliefs are great aids to the development of insight but only to a limited depth, while some belief structures (viz., various Buddhist formulations) can facilitate insight to the highest levels. Believing in the reality of concepts such as cars, trees, Self, etc. puts a limit on the depth of insight that can be attained; but at a moment of insight, there is no "car", "tree", "Self", "belief". > From Sammohavinodani, ch2, Classification of the Bases, 242: > > "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or > without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no- self is > not made known without the arising of the Enlightened Ones; it is made > known only on the arising of the Enlightened Ones". Right. I'd add that with sufficiently deep insight into any one of three characteristics, the other two are known as well. Other teachings may facilitate insight into anicca and dukkha, but not to the depth required to understand anatta and see the union of the three in enlightenment. > Without any understanding of the elements as anatta, there cannot be any > insight (vipassana) into realities or the attainment of even the first > stage of insight as I understand. I think Phil and possibly Ken O in an > earlier posts have stressed this aspect too. With the arising of insight, there is no notion of "self". After an insight, there is still a tendency for Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike to conceptualize a self. The difference? Buddhists (including myself and even "especially" myself) often bend over backwards trying to use words that won't betray their conceptualizations of a self. But despite the fancy words, that conceptualization is still there until the insight is developed to the depth of magga and phala. > The Visuddhimagga also discusses sacca-~naa.na (knowledge of the truth) > which it divides into `knowledge as idea and knowledge as penetration' > (XV1,84). Sacca nana is firm understanding of the 4 Noble Truths as I > understand, even when it is right understanding conceptually about the > Truths, such as the truth of Nibbana, not yet realized. Without knowledge > based on hearing the Truths, there cannot be any sacca nana. "Herein > knowledge as idea is mundane and *occurs through hearsay, etc,* about > cessation and the path……….When this knowledge is mundane, then, occurring > as the overcoming of obsessions, the knowledge of suffering then > forestalls the [false] idea of individuality…….etc" Hmmm... I don't see any indication in that paragraph or surrounding paragraphs in Vism. that "conceptual right view" is the necessary forerunner of insight. It says there's a difference between `knowledge as idea and knowledge as penetration' and that we should not confuse the two. Also, in the following paragraph it says (in the abstract) that "this idea precludes that idea". The section is basically discussing the fact that supramundane insight does not occur outside the dispensation. I'm inclined to agree with that! Not discussed is the notion that mundane insight requires learning a Buddhist-sounding speculative theory. (NOTE: when the Buddha or an enlightened person uses the words, they are describing reality; when unenlightened people use the words, they are just speculating because their conceptions of "nama", "rupa", "anatta", etc. are wrong. > Looking forward to your answers to the questions above, Dan. I hope I addressed your questions adequately. If not, I'm sure you'll let me know. I'd love to hear your take on my comments and questions to Mike, when and if you're inclined... Metta, Dan 38138 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 110 and Tiika. Dear Htoo, op 10-11-2004 13:27 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: 1st: 21 kusala cittas are 8 kamavacara mahakusala cittas, 5 rupakusala cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, and 4 lokuttara kusala cittas ( 8 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 21 cittas ) N: Thank you very much, I left some out. This must be corrected! H: This time you include 'kusala' adjective in > rupavipaka and arupavipaka. I would prefer not to add 'kusala' here > in cases of rupavipaka cittas and arupavipaka cittas. They are just > enough. N: You are right that it is superfluous to add kusala to rupaavacara and arupaavacara vipaakacittas, they are always kusala vipaaka. Thank you. By the way, I would rather call them rupaavacara and arupaavacara vipaakacittas, not rupavipaka and arupavipaka, I have not seen this in the Pali texts. Nina. 38139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 108 and Tiika Dear Htoo, I agree, but I want to add to your last remark: op 10-11-2004 17:03 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > To the worst the last which is hasituppada citta do not have both > panna and sati. > > As soon as sati disappears Even The Buddha has to smile. N: It is said in the commentary that the hasituppadacitta may arise just after cittas with omniscience. That is when he direct the citta with omniscience to the past or the future. But anyway, this is very hard for us worldlings to understand. Beyond our scope. Nina. 38140 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 117 ) Dear Htoo, op 10-11-2004 16:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > 5 pasada > rupas are panca vatthus and hadaya rupa is hadaya vatthu. These 6 > rupas are vatthu rupas. Other 22 rupas are avatthu rupas. Vatthu > means 'real things' 'substance' 'object' 'property' 'ground'. N: Do you like the translation base for vatthu? I am used to this English word. Nina. 38141 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 110 and Tiika. Dear Htoo, By the way, I would rather call them rupaavacara and arupaavacara vipaakacittas, not rupavipaka and arupavipaka, I have not seen this in the Pali texts. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. In Dhamma Thread, I use their full names. They are 5 rupavacara rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupavacara arupavipaka cittas. As we all know in sobhana cittas there are three classes of cittas called kusala citta, vipaka cittas, and kiriya cittas with the exception of lokuttara cittas where there is no kiriya cittas. This is explained that because all magga cittas arise only once while all other kusala cittas arise repeatedly. Repeatedly arising cittas do have root dhamma and when these roots are no more kusala or akusala, then cittas become kiriya cittas. Kiriya cittas are inoperational and there will not be any resultant cittas while kusala cittas do give rise to vipaka cittas. In case of lokuttara cittas, as magga cittas which are kusala cittas arise only once and they are immediately followed by phala cittas and since then magga cittas no more arise and only phala cittas can arise. That is why there is no lokuttara kiriya cittas. In kama, rupa and arupa loka there are always 3 kinds of cittas. Kamavacara mahakusala cittas are kusala cittas in kama bhumis (mostly) and rupavacara rupakusala cittas are kusala cittas in rupa bhumis (mostly) and arupavacara arupakusala cittas are kusala cittas in arupa bhumis(mostly). I use these three words 'mahakusala' 'rupakusala' 'arupakusala' as adjective to modify 'cittas' in different realms. When these three kinds of kusala cittas are talked in short, I drop the word 'citta'. So I would say mahakusala, rupakusala, and arupakusala. For vipaka cittas, I would say mahavipaka, rupavipaka, and arupavipaka. That is why text does not show 'mahavipaka' 'rupavipaka' and 'arupavipaka'. By the same token, kiriya cittas are mahakiriya cittas, rupakiriya cittas and arupakiriya cittas. Again, here 'maha' seems a superfluous word. But it is not. Because there are three kinds of kusala that is kama, rupa and arupa depending on bhumi base, it is called 'mahakusala' to differentiate if from rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas. With respect, Htoo Naing 38142 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 117 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 10-11-2004 16:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > 5 pasada > > rupas are panca vatthus and hadaya rupa is hadaya vatthu. These 6 > > rupas are vatthu rupas. Other 22 rupas are avatthu rupas. Vatthu > > means 'real things' 'substance' 'object' 'property' 'ground'. > N: Do you like the translation base for vatthu? I am used to this English > word. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Vatthu and ayatana sometimes need to be cleared. In that case translation may become hard job. With respect, Htoo Naing 38143 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Re: Oh Madam! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: The thing that REALLY got to me .... guess who the Cashier was, > chameleon smile and all? > > Circular conversations and pure frustration ... most of us > experienced one or two of these. It was quite infuriating, but > strangely fascinating. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Friend Christine, Gosh, that's terrible! I have traveled to many countries, and want to travel to many more, but I have no desire to EVER go to India. It is probably the only country worse than Egypt! LOL! It's too bad because I would like to see all of those Buddhist historical places, but I wouldn't dare step one foot into India. Glad that you survived the trip. I don't blame you for any of the meltdowns you experienced. ;-)) Metta, James 38144 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: Oh Madam! Hello James, (RobM at bottom) all, Just caught your post as I was about to dash out the door to work. I know how the posts sound :-) but, maybe there is something seriously wrong with me, after going through 16 days of wildly differing experiences - literally from the sublime to the ridiculous - I have to say I am an India Addict and hopefully intend to return again and again. To India (in this life), that is. :-) Maybe it is genetic. I had an email from my son yesterday who has spent the last three months backpacking in India and Nepal. A remark he made after going back into India from Nepal was: "But even though the above doesn't sound that great [after recounting story of accommodation and travel difficulties], I love india and am glad to be back. The chaos, filth, confusion, recalcitrance are excellent.". And I understand exactly how he feels! Great posts on the Noble Eightfold Path for Teenagers - (amumodana to both you and RobM - enjoying them immensely). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > The thing that REALLY got to me .... guess who the Cashier > was, > > chameleon smile and all? > > > > Circular conversations and pure frustration ... most of us > > experienced one or two of these. It was quite infuriating, but > > strangely fascinating. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > Friend Christine, > > Gosh, that's terrible! I have traveled to many countries, and want > to travel to many more, but I have no desire to EVER go to India. > It is probably the only country worse than Egypt! LOL! It's too bad > because I would like to see all of those Buddhist historical places, > but I wouldn't dare step one foot into India. Glad that you > survived the trip. I don't blame you for any of the meltdowns you > experienced. ;-)) > > Metta, James 38145 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:09pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Howard and Tyler, I was suggesting that Tyler, having learnt the conventional interpretation of Buddhist practice, might like to read about the true (paramattha) interpretation. -------------------------- H: > I would be interested in reading what you believe that practice is, Ken. > -------------------------- It's pretty much the same as all the other times I have tried to explain it to you. For Tyler's benefit, I believe: In a moment when panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana. -------------- KH: > > In this practice, there is no self; there > > are only dhammas - conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama > and rupa). > > > ------------------------ > Howard: But what exactly is the practice, Ken? > ------------- I think you are (unwillingly) insisting on an element of self. ------------- KH: > > So, put aside everything you have learnt about formal > > meditation and about mindfulness techniques. Put aside thoughts of > controlling the flow of dhammas and, instead, allow right > understanding to arise. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: How should Tyler allow that to happen, Ken, in your opinion? Why should it arise? What new conditions will yield that? That is: What is the practice? > ------------- If Tyler has been associating with good friends who have helped her to hear the true Dhamma, and if she has wisely considered that true Dhamma, then the conditions are in place for a degree of panna to arise here and now. The question is, does she understand that, or is she clinging to the idea of a controlling self? (Sorry for all the third tense, Tyler.) :-) ------------------------- H: > Namas (mental phenomena) and rupas (physical phenomena) are observed all the time. What is it that enables the right understanding that should encounter them to arise? To expect new results without new conditions is ... odd. > ------------------------- I agree: we should be wary of thinking of panna as vipaka. It is not a sense object that is experienced by virtue of past kamma: it is a volitional sankhara. ------------------------- KH: > > > For us beginners, satipatthana isn't likely to occur. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: The normal meaning for the word 'satipatthana' is "foundations (or stations) of mindfulness", and the literal meaning is "the setting forth, putting forth, or setting up of mindfulness". That is different from 'pa~n~na', which means "insight" or "wisdom", and is what you mean. Beginners certainly can make progress with the setting up of mindfulness. ------------------------- As is implied in my opening definition of the practice, right understanding comes first: the rest of the practice follows immediately, in the same moment. ----------------- KH: > > If we barely > > know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect to > know them directly? > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: In the suttas, there is told how the Buddha instructed a mentally deficient man to meditate by attending to rubbing his hand on a rag! That man, certainly unable to grasp subtle theoretical concepts, attained a stage of awakening by that practice. > ----------------- What understanding do you derive from that? Is cloth-rubbing the Middle Way? Surely not, but a wise man can incur a defective brain. The impression I get from the sutta is that panna had been accumulated (I think the story was that he had directly known anicca in a former lifetime.), but there was difficulty in formulating it in conventional language. -------------------- KH: > > Even so, by studying and contemplating the > > Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > satipatthana to develop. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: That sort of theoretical, intellectual "understanding" can advance forever, but, by itself, will not lead to awakening. > --------------------- Which sort of theoretical understanding are you referring to? If it is the sort that arises with akusala consciousness then, sure, it will never get us out of samsara. But kusala consciousness of the Buddha's teaching is the intellectual [indirect] way that leads to the mundane [direct] way that leads to the supramundane way. ------------------------------------------- H: > The Buddha didn't teach a Noble One-Fold Path consisting of the single factor: Study my theory. > -------------------------------------------- There are eight Path factors, none of which is study. When those factors and the conditions for their arising (including study) have been taught to us, and when we have set the conditions in motion (studied Dhamma and practised satipatthana), then the Path Factors can arise. Ken H 38146 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Ken, and all > In a moment when > panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, > right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right > concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana. Do you believe that such moments are rare moments, so called "path moments" that are akin to enlightenment, or can they be experienced in a more common, everyday way? Since you've defined them as right practice, I guess you would see them as moments that we will experience *not* only at rare moments. As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the rarity of the arising of understanding of realities. I think that approach is helpful for conditioning patience. On the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding can arise in a more shallow and yet still helpful way day in day out, perhaps many times during a busy day. There are degrees of panna. And degrees of "practice?" Metta, Phil 38147 From: Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken (and Tyler) - In a message dated 11/10/04 6:15:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Dear Howard and Tyler, > > I was suggesting that Tyler, having learnt the conventional > interpretation of Buddhist practice, might like to read about the > true (paramattha) interpretation. > > -------------------------- > H: >I would be interested in reading what you believe that practice > is, Ken. > > -------------------------- > > It's pretty much the same as all the other times I have tried to > explain it to you. For Tyler's benefit, I believe: In a moment when > panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, > right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right > concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, you say that the practice consists of "In a moment when panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana." What you have described is an event, something happening, namely pa~n~na arising. What makes that practice? That's like saying that practicing toplay a violin is "At the time one tucks a violin under one's chin and applies the bow, music arises". What actions lead to the arising of the pa~n~na? The setting up of conditions that lead to the arising of wisdom is what constitutes practice, Ken. The arising of wisdom is the *result* of practice. It seems to me that the *only* practice you countenance is study. ------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > KH: >>In this practice, there is no self; there > > >are only dhammas - conditioned mental and physical phenomena (nama > >and rupa). > >> > >------------------------ > >Howard: > But what exactly is the practice, Ken? > > ------------- > > I think you are (unwillingly) insisting on an element of self. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: You think wrong. I insist on no such thing. What I insist on is that practice consists of volitional action. If there is no such thing, then there is no practice and no Dhamma. There is nothing but good or bad luck, requiring nothing of us, for volition is non-existent. You appear to be a devote' of randomness, it seems to me. ------------------------------------------ > > ------------- > KH: >>So, put aside everything you have learnt about formal > > >meditation and about mindfulness techniques. Put aside thoughts of > >controlling the flow of dhammas and, instead, allow right > >understanding to arise. >> > >----------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > How should Tyler allow that to happen, Ken, in your opinion? Why > should it arise? What new conditions will yield that? That is: What > is the practice? > > ------------- > > If Tyler has been associating with good friends who have helped her > to hear the true Dhamma, and if she has wisely considered that true > Dhamma, then the conditions are in place for a degree of panna to > arise here and now. The question is, does she understand that, or is > she clinging to the idea of a controlling self? ----------------------------------------- Howard: So I'm right. Practice as you see it is just study. ----------------------------------------- > > (Sorry for all the third tense, Tyler.) :-) > > ------------------------- > > H: >Namas (mental phenomena) and rupas (physical phenomena) are > observed all the time. What is it that enables the right > understanding that should encounter them to arise? To expect new > results without new conditions is ... odd. > > ------------------------- > > I agree: we should be wary of thinking of panna as vipaka. It is not > a sense object that is experienced by virtue of past kamma: it is a > volitional sankhara. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Fascinating! So you claim that pa~n~na is unconditioned. It does not arise from causes. It is another nibbana! (Or, calling it a "volitional sankhara", you think that pa~n~na can be directly willed, an opposite sort of extreme view, giving too much power to cetana.) ------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > KH: >> > >For us beginners, satipatthana isn't likely to occur. > >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > The normal meaning for the word 'satipatthana' is "foundations (or > stations) of mindfulness", and the literal meaning is "the setting > forth, putting forth, or setting up of mindfulness". That is > different from 'pa~n~na', which means "insight" or "wisdom", and is > what you mean. Beginners certainly can make progress with the > setting up of mindfulness. > ------------------------- > > As is implied in my opening definition of the practice, right > understanding comes first: the rest of the practice follows > immediately, in the same moment. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: What is that initial right understanding? Intellectual understanding obtained by study? Certainly one doesn't begin with pa~n~na. So, we are back to what I said before. Practice is nothing but study in your view. You must really like studying, because you make it the alpha and omega. ------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > KH: >>If we barely > > >know namas and rupas at the intellectual level, how can we expect > to > >know them directly? > >> > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > In the suttas, there is told how the Buddha instructed a mentally > deficient man to meditate by attending to rubbing his hand on a rag! > That man, certainly unable to grasp subtle theoretical concepts, > attained a stage of awakening by that practice. > > ----------------- > > What understanding do you derive from that? Is cloth-rubbing the > Middle Way? Surely not, but a wise man can incur a defective brain. > The impression I get from the sutta is that panna had been > accumulated (I think the story was that he had directly known anicca > in a former lifetime.), but there was difficulty in formulating it > in conventional language. ------------------------------------------ Howard: What I infer from that is not what you say, though potential is always there to some degree. What I infer is that this was a man who actually had somewhat of an advantage in lacking the intellectual baggage and clinging that we are afflicted with, and without that obfuscation was able to benefit from the absorption induced by the samatha practice the Buddha so brilliantly gave him [THAT was a practice, BTW!]. And with the calm, concentration, and clarity induced by that meditation, and being free, to begin with, of conceptual filters, in seeing the originally clean rag slowly become dirtied by the rubbing of his hand,he suddenly had direct, non-conceptual insight into conditionality and impermanence, and attained path and fruit. ---------------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > KH: >>Even so, by studying and contemplating the > > >Dhamma we soon understand that namas and rupas are arising in the > >present moment, and so there is the potential, here and now, for > >satipatthana to develop. >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > That sort of theoretical, intellectual "understanding" can advance > forever, but, by itself, will not lead to awakening. > > --------------------- > > Which sort of theoretical understanding are you referring to? If it > is the sort that arises with akusala consciousness then, sure, it > will never get us out of samsara. But kusala consciousness of the > Buddha's teaching is the intellectual [indirect] way that leads to > the mundane [direct] way that leads to the supramundane way. > > ------------------------------------------- > H: >The Buddha didn't teach a Noble One-Fold Path consisting of the > single factor: Study my theory. > > -------------------------------------------- > > There are eight Path factors, none of which is study. When those > factors and the conditions for their arising (including study) have > been taught to us, and when we have set the conditions in motion > (studied Dhamma and practised satipatthana), then the Path Factors > can arise. > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38148 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, I'll get to the rest of your post later. It's a good discussion and I appreciate your answers. Just on the earlier thread: --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > I'd love to hear your take on my comments and questions to Mike, when > and if you're inclined... .... S: I think I did take up the first point 'insight comes first' which I disagreed with. Please would you raise again any questions or comments you'd particularly like my take on. Like Howard, I have a little reluctance at the moment to go back, as I'm still in catch-up mode from the trip. I was interested to see that your approach fell under a pure math umbrella. I was always very fond of pure maths in school. For me, the discussion was rather more like one of those old-fashioned long distance calls when one started to wonder whether one was having the same conversation. It was interesting, nonetheless. To put it in my basic math terms: Mike, I or someone else would say 'x' equals 'y', You'd then say 'Sarah, Mike and others say 'x' equals 'z', and build your next argument or hypothesis on this basis. We'd then have to go back to explain that in our book, 'y' doesn't equal 'z' and we never implied it did......;-). No problem, but at a certain point, people tend to drop out (maybe our math is too basic;-)) or like those old calls,try another line or way of contact. This was what I did and I think the connection's better. If you'd still like to pursue the first one, that's fine. Anyway, pls let me know if you'd like any clarifications on anything I said (as opposed to the strawman paraphrases)or for any comments you made which you'd like me to discuss further. Oops, no dhamma here - I'd better get straight to the rest of your recent letter. Metta, Sarah ====== 38149 From: Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 11/10/04 7:59:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > That's like saying that practicing > toplay a violin is "At the time one tucks a violin under one's chin and > applies the > bow, music arises". > ======================== I didn't put this properly to make my point. I should have said the following: That's like saying that practicing to play a violin is "A violin is under one's chin, the bow is moving, and a lovely melody is issuing forth." What is described, of course, is not violin practice - it is the end result of such practice, where practicing the violin is a specfic sort of volitional activity, typically repeated often and for a long time. Likewise, as I said, the setting up of conditions that lead to the arising of wisdom is what constitutes Buddhist practice, and the arising of wisdom is the *result* of that practice, and not the practice itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38150 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > > >D: On occasion, there may > > > be a clear comprehension that without craving, there is no > suffering. > > ….. > > S: Is this the deep penetrative insight into the characteristic of a > > reality or is it thinking about suffering – a kind of conceptual > > understanding? > > Penetrative insight. ….. S: Penetrative insight into what reality? ….. > (Please keep in mind that this is only an example, and that there are > many, many, MANY variations that make it *impossible* to judge the > depth of development in another by any simple "test".) ….. S: The only way to have any idea about another’s understanding is by discussion (and then of course it’s subject to one’s limited understanding). For example, if someone has had insights, but knows nothing about the realities of seeing and visible object now at this moment, these insights are not those as taught by the Buddha. ….. > At the same time, the insight is quite shallow. It may not be deep > enough even to inspire the construction of an explicit conceptual > formulation for the insight, in which case it would not be discussed, > thought about very much, or consolidated in any meaningful way. … ….. S: OK, but then I’d say it’s not the development of satipatthana or the insights that may arise from a firm development of such. ….. > Without consolidation, deeper insight may not have occasion to arise > for a long, long time. Shallow also in the sense that the 4NT are > extremely deep, and insight into them is developed gradually, over > long periods of time. …. S: By the development of satipatthana which begins with repeated awareness and understanding into presently arising namas and rupas. While there are doubts about the path and ideas of self, I’m not sure I’d refer to moments of satipatthana as suggesting even a shallow insight of any kind into the 4NT. …. > > S: Suffering as a characteristic of what? > > The presently arising moment. …. S: This sounds like thinking about suffering along with your first comment, ‘On occasion, there may be a clear comprehension that without craving, there is no suffering.’ Surely ‘the present arising moment’ is a concept, not a reality with any characteristic at all. ….. > > S: "These `shallower insights', defined by you as `most any insight > short > > of supramundane path consciousness', were into precisely what > realities > > before we studied the `Buddha's words'? > > Namas & rupas, their characteristics, and their relations. Obviously, > though, before studying the Buddha's words we wouldn't describe them > in that way. …. S: Before studying the Buddha’s words, was there really any understanding at all about namas and rupas in any language or non-language at all? Didn’t we take seeing and hearing for being ‘my seeing and hearing’, wasn’t it my body experienced rather than heat, hardness and so on? Was there any clear understanding of the distinction between hearing and sound. Is there now, even after hearing and studying a lot? Wasn’t it all taken for self and other beings and things? There can’t be complete ignorance and wrong view with occasional deep insights arising from highly developed satipatthana in between without any doubts about self or the path. ….. > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to refer > to? > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind states, > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and dukkha. …. S: Only mind states? Are you sure? ….. > At moments of insight, there is no idea or sense of "who". > Afterwards, the insight can easily be mangled by constructing a > conceptual scheme that includes an idea of a "who" that has insights. …. S: We have a different use of the word insight here. If we’re talking about the insights starting with namarupa pariccheda nana, there will be no question or doubt or idea about who has had such insights. I agree that in the beginning when satipatthana is weak, there are bound to be such doubts and views in between the occasional moments of awareness. ….. > > If there is no precise understanding of dhammas, of namas and > rupas, is it > > possible to develop any detachment from an idea of self at all? > > I believe not -- unless when you say "precise understanding", you > really mean being able to fluently rattle off racks of Pali terms and > logically piece together their definitions and relations. …. S: That’s one of those strawman arguments again ;-) ….. > Insight begins shallow and gradually deepens. If you like to look at > the "levels of insight" through a hierarchy of: > 1. Namarupaparicchedañana; > 2. Paccayapariggahañana; > 3. Sammasanañana; > 4. Udayabbayañana; > 5. Bhangañana; > etc., that's fine. …. S: It’s not a question of what I’d like to look at. It’s a question of what we read in the texts and which I personally have no reason to doubt. …. >Then, with only a relatively shallow (but direct > and penetrative) insight at level 1, … S: an oxymoron;-) …. >the other insights are possible > (and do arise) but only at a similar degree of depth. These insights > are gradually developed to greater and greater depth in concert, > going "up and down" the list repeatedly. … S: Show me the text!! …. > The notion that a thorough and very deep understanding of > namarupapariccheda is prerequisite for even relatively shallow > insight into the other characteristics CAN slow the development of > insight by hindering the conceptualization and consolidation of the > other insights. … S: Again, show me the text. Also what do you mean by ‘the other characteristics’? I’m not clear here at all. From Vism XV111,36 “The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which after defining mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being, is what should be understood as purification of view.” … >It doesn't NECESSARILY slow the development, though, > because these several aspects of insight that you call "levels" are > closely related. …. S: Stages or levels, but not aspects. In MN24, Rathaviniita Sutta, we read about the simile of the relay chariots to refer to the 7 Visuddhi or stages of insight. ‘Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, leaving Saavatthii through the inner palace door, would mount the first relay chariot, and by means of the first relay chariot he would arrive at the second relay chariot…….seventh chariot, and by means of the seventh chariot he would arrive at the inner palace door in Saaketa…..” In the same way, the 7 purifications are described. ….. >Some people may benefit more from dwelling on the > language of namarupaparicchedañana, while others may benefit more > from hearing different kinds of language and different aspects of > insight. …. S: Isn’t this just thinking about it? Is there any getting away from the direct understanding of namas and rupas? …. >. Believing in the reality of concepts such as cars, > trees, Self, etc. puts a limit on the depth of insight that can be > attained; but at a moment of insight, there is > no "car", "tree", "Self", "belief". … S: I would put it the other way round and say that while there is still any believing in the reality of concepts such as cars etc, there won’t be any development of satipatthana, let alone any insights. ….. > Right. I'd add that with sufficiently deep insight into any one of > three characteristics, the other two are known as well. …. S: This doesn’t mean that by having deep insight into the characteristic of suffering with no insight into the other characteristics that they well suddently be known or penetrated too. The development of understanding of realities means the development of understanding of the characteristics of realities from the start. If a practice or development starts on the basis of ‘Self’ doing or having insights, that’s how it will proceed. There’s a wrong path and a right path, remember. ….. > With the arising of insight, there is no notion of "self". After an > insight, there is still a tendency for Buddhists and non-Buddhists > alike to conceptualize a self. The difference? Buddhists (including > myself and even "especially" myself) often bend over backwards trying > to use words that won't betray their conceptualizations of a self. > But despite the fancy words, that conceptualization is still there > until the insight is developed to the depth of magga and phala. …. S: However, the wrong view of self has to be gradually worn away so that by the time of enlightenment, there is no wrong view left at all and even the anusaya (latent tendency) of wrong view is eliminated. It’s not like we have the same wrong views as now when the stages of insight have been attained. ….. "Herein > > knowledge as idea is mundane and *occurs through hearsay, etc,* > about > > cessation and the path……….When this knowledge is mundane, then, > occurring > > as the overcoming of obsessions, the knowledge of suffering then > > forestalls the [false] idea of individuality…….etc" … S: Sacca-nana – firm knowledge of the Truths which has developed after listening, reading, considering very carefully and developing satipatthana. Only then can there be any insights. …. >Not > discussed is the notion that mundane insight requires learning a > Buddhist-sounding speculative theory. …. S: Straw-man argument no2! …. >(NOTE: when the Buddha or an > enlightened person uses the words, they are describing reality; when > unenlightened people use the words, they are just speculating because > their conceptions of "nama", "rupa", "anatta", etc. are wrong. …. S: It depends. There may be wholesome thinking and reflection about realities not based on direct understanding or based on direct understanding or a combination. If the speech is wholesome and the view is right, it’s certainly not wrong! Of course there may also be unwholesome thinking and reflection based on either of the above and in this case whether or not the view is right, it’s wrong, because of being unwholesome. As Nina said once, I think, ‘let’s mind our own cittas’! …. > I hope I addressed your questions adequately. If not, I'm sure you'll > let me know. …. S: Great effort….I’ll look forward to a few more answers;-). You always help me to consider carefully, Dan. I hope I’ve also addressed the points you wish to have addressed here. Metta, Sarah ======= 38151 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:37pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 46 - Feeling/Vedana (s) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** We cling to life and we want to go on living and receiving sense impressions. We are attached to sense-impressions such as seeing and hearing. There are many moments of seeing and hearing and shortly after they have fallen away there are bound to be lobhamúla- cittas even when we do not have happy feeling. After seeing has fallen away there is a mind-door process of cittas which experience visible object through the mind-door and then there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which think of concepts. We may think of a person, a car or a tree. We like to notice a person, a car or a tree, these are concepts we are familiar with. We like to think and even when we do not feel glad there can be clinging with indifferent feeling, but we do not notice this. It is useful to know that lobha can be accompanied by upekkhå. Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many defilements. It is better to know realities than to mislead ourselves with regard to them. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38152 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 Dear Htoo (& DN) --- htootintnaing wrote: > 28.10.04 is full moon day. The Buddha Gotama preached Abhidhamma at > Tavatimsa started from full moon day of the 4th month of solar > calendar of 12 signs starts with Aries. ..... S: I was glad you mentioned this. We were in Rajghir in the Bamboo Grove and as we looked at the full moon, I mentioned to someone that I thought this was also when the Abhidhamma was preached but was shaky on the facts. .... > The start of Abhidhamma preaching is called Dhammacakkappavattana > Day. From the 4th month till the 7th month, The Buddha preached > Abhidhamma for 3 successive months without any interruption. .... S: It's interesting that it's called Dhammacakkappavattana Day as we kept reciting this sutta. I didn't know. .... > Tomorrow (28.10.04) is the full moon day when The Buddha finished > preaching Abhidhamma at Deva realm and came down to manussa bhumi or > human realm. ... S: I also liked your account of the 'origin of Pawa rana' in #37856 and yes, I've heard the account of the wrong view of the monks before who thought that unity and happiness between them could be achieved by silence, rather than by pointing out their errors and asking forgiveness. I also liked your description of the respect shown to elders and teachers in Myanmar on this day. A few of us followed a similar showing of respect a couple of days later in Sikkhim. Metta, Sarah p.s If you, DN or anyone else wishes to post a very long article (more than a couple of pages), pls give a link if at all possible. If it's not possible for any reason,you may like to consider posting it in installments like your series. DN, there were a few points in the Mahasi Sayadaw article I was considering discussing, but I'll wait til I know you're still around first. I hope you saw my other posts to you. =========================================== 38153 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:23pm Subject: correction Vis. XIV, 110, 111 Dear Sarah, at the beginning of Vis. 110, I like to correct: Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Intro Vis. 111: Kamma conditions the last javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) that arise before the dying-consciousness. Whatever object these cittas experience, that is also the object of the next rebirth-consciousness. The dying-consciousness that follows upon these last javana-cittas has the same object as the rebirth-consciousness and life-continuum of the life that is about to end. There are three classes of object of rebirth-consciousness: kamma, sign of kamma and sign of destiny. We read in the ŒConditional Relations¹ by U Narada (p. 140): <1. when a past faultless or faulty volition is taken as object it is kamma object. 2. when a thing involved in the performance of a kamma is taken as object it is a sign of kamma object... 3. when an image indicates the existence in which one will be reborn after death is the object, it is the sign of destiny object... One of the three objects above, which is taken in the dying process, is also the object taken at rebirth-consciousness.> The Co to the ŒBook of Analysis¹, the ŒDispeller of Delusion¹ (I, p. 190 etc.) gives different examples. When kusala kamma such as the building of a Pagoda is the object of the last javanacittas just before the dying-consciousness, the image of a Pagoda may appear to the last javana-cittas and that is the sign of kamma which is the object of kusala cittas. It is the means by which kusala kamma was accumulated and this can condition rebirth in a happy plane, such as a deva plane. We read about the example of someone who is in a happy plane (like the human plane) who takes rebirth in an unhappy plane. When he is near death he remembers his evil deeds, or a sign of it, and then he will have rebirth in an unhappy plane. When someone is in a happy plane he will have rebirth in a happy plane. We read: <...in another¹s case, relatives present (objects to him) at the five sense-doors, such as visible datum as object, perhaps flowers, garlands, flags, banners, etc., saying ŒThis is being offered to the Blessed One for your sake, set your mind at rest¹; or a sound as object, perhaps preaching of the Dhamma, offering of music, etc....> N: Any object appearing through one of the six doorways can be the object of the last javana-cittas before dying. That object is conditioned by kamma. When kusala kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness, kamma conditions the object experienced by the last javana-cittas to be pleasant, and the javana-cittas which experience it to be kusala cittas. When akusala kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness, kamma conditions the object experienced by the last javana-cittas to be unpleasant, and the javana-cittas which experience it to be akusala cittas. These objects are past, present or not so classifiable. The last javana-cittas of a life that is about to end may experience a sense object which is a present object. These javana-cittas are five in number, . These are followed by two moments of retention and one moment of dying-consciousness. The dying-consciousness experiences another object which is the same as the pa.tisandhi-citta and all bhavanga-cittas of the life that is about to end. The pa.tisandhi-citta, rebirth-consciousness, experiences as it were a seal-imprint or copy of the object experienced by the last javana-cittas of the preceding life. We should remember that the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta and the dying-consciousness are cittas which are door-freed (dvara-vimutta) and process-freed (viithi-vimutta). They do not experience an object that impinges on one of the six doors like the cittas arising in processes. They merely experience a copy or echo of the object experienced by the last javana-cittas of the preceding life. We are unable to know what kind of object this is. The "Dispeller of Delusion" states that the rebirth-consciousness can experience a present object, but this means that the last javana-cittas of the preceding life directly experienced a present object. However, the rebirth-consciousness does not experience it in the same way as those javana-cittas, it merely experiences a copy of it. The next life follows upon this present life very rapidly, it all occurs in one flash. Seeing at this moment may be followed by kusala javana-cittas or akusala javana-cittas and then the dying-consciousness may arise to be followed immediately by the rebirth-consciousness. When kamma committed in the past is remembered during the last javana-cittas, the object is a past object. When the object of the last javana-cittas is a sign of destiny, the place of one¹s next rebirth, one may see a heavenly mansion or a picture of the flames of hell, for example. ******** Text Vis. 111. How so? (a) When, through the influence of the eight kinds of sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] (1)-(8), beings come to be reborn among deities and human beings, then the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant with root-cause (42)-(49) occur, N: The eight mahaa-kusala cittas (of the sense-sphere) with two roots (alobha and adosa) or with three roots, that is, accompanied by paññaa as well, produces rebirth in the human plane or in the six lower deva planes. Vis. text: ..and also the resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause associated with equanimity (41), which is the weak profitable result with two root-causes in those who are entering upon the state of eunuchs, etc., among human beings-- N: Those reborn with a santira.na-citta (investigating-consciousness) which is ahetuka kusala vipaaka, are handicapped from birth. It is the result of weak kusala kamma. The Tiika explains that someone reborn with this type of citta may be stammering, dumb or an eunuch. As we have seen, the santiira.na-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipaaka can in this case perform the function of rebirth. It is the same type of citta as the santiira.na-citta which performs in a sense-door process the function of investigating a sense-object. Vis. text: thus nine kinds of resultant consciousness in all occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object whichever among the kamma, sign of kamma, or sign of destiny has appeared at the time of dying (see also Ch. XVII, par.120).[42] ---------------------------- Note 42. See also MA.iv,124f. 'Here "kamma" is stored-up profitable kamma of the sense sphere that has got an opportunity to ripen; hence he said "that has appeared". "Sign of kamma" is the gift to be given that was a condition for the volition at the moment of accumulating the kamma. "Sign of destiny" is the visible-data base located in the destiny in which he is about to be reborn' (Pm. 477). See Ch. XVII, pr.136ff. ****** 38155 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: There is a Practice Hello Phil, Ken H, Tyler, Howard and friends. A belated wellcome to Tyler. Your discussions gave me food for thought. op 11-11-2004 01:08 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the rarity of the > arising > of understanding of realities. I think that approach is helpful for > conditioning > patience. N: Patience was stressed very often in India. Not expecting a result soon, beware of lobha coming in time and again. Ph: On the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding > can arise in a more shallow and yet > still helpful way day in day out, perhaps many times during a busy day. > There are degrees of panna. And degrees of "practice?" N: Yes, it has to begin. I find it very helpful to consider the six doors and the fact that only one dhamma is experienced at a time through one doorway. The suttas remind us time and again of this. That is very daily, dhammas are experienced one at a time, no matter there is awareness of them or not. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. No attention to the image of a whole or the details. But we have to get used to this, it has to sink in. We always thought that we see people and things. There can be just a moment of correct understanding and this is the condition for higher understanding. It has to begin with correct thinking, correct intellectual understanding. The purpose is not more awareness but more understanding. How we cling to the idea of my practice. Detachment was stressed in India all the time. Pañña leads to detachment. But lobha comes in all the time. When we are sitting, we think of ourselves as sitting. We cling to postures. We cling to awareness and this hinders. Even though we know that this hinders, we still cling. Only understanding of such moments can lead to detachment. When I was lying on the bed I remembered that there should not be any selection of objects of awareness. There is sound, but there is also thinking of events, and we should not try to avoid thinking of concepts, it arises naturally. But again, I was clinging to the idea of myself not doing anything to induce sati. Lobha is so subtle. It is fortunate to have good friends in Dhamma who remind me of this. Otherwise I would not know this at all. Nina. 38156 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Day 28.10.04 .... S: It's interesting that it's called Dhammacakkappavattana Day as we kept reciting this sutta. I didn't know. .... Htoo: In Myanmar, Dhammacakkappavattana Day is a bank holiday and all offices, municipal markets and most private shops close. Dhamma is The Buddha' Dhamma. Cakka means 'wheel'. Vatta means 'rotating' 'moving around'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tomorrow (28.10.04) is the full moon day when The Buddha finished > > preaching Abhidhamma at Deva realm and came down to manussa bhumi or > > human realm. ... S: I also liked your account of the 'origin of Pawa rana' in #37856 and yes, I've heard the account of the wrong view of the monks before who thought that unity and happiness between them could be achieved by silence, rather than by pointing out their errors and asking forgiveness. I also liked your description of the respect shown to elders and teachers in Myanmar on this day. A few of us followed a similar showing of respect a couple of days later in Sikkhim. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That was not my post. I included the original writer's email address and name. Please see at the top. It is said 'fruitsandcream' and email is 'no_reply@y..'. Anyway, all his writing reflect Myanmar people culture which is mixed with Buddhism. That is why I forwarded the massage to this list. When we were children, we wander around elderly with lobha because when we paid homage or worship them they gave us pocket-money. We brought an earthern saucer which is used to fill oil and used for light. In the small saucer we put a candle and lit it. Then brought along wherever we go. We had to frequently re-light it. That was when we were toddlers and we followed with older children and behaved like them. When we attended primary school, each year around that day that is the day before fullmoon day if it was on Saturday and if on Monday 3 days before fullmoon day, we gave homage to our school teachers with our donation making things like body- soap, facial-soap, face towel, towel, candles for teachers to offer The Buddha or as they wish, cakes, coconut in tact that is uncracked or undone which is essential component and bananas 3 to 5 bunches which again is also essential,medicine etc etc. This tradition is carried up to university level and postgraduate level and even doctorate level. This is relationship between teachers and students. At work, all employees do the same to their superiors as tradition. At home householder like grandfathers, fathers are given homage. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > p.s If you, DN or anyone else wishes to post a very long article (more > than a couple of pages), pls give a link if at all possible. If it's not > possible for any reason,you may like to consider posting it in > installments like your series. > > DN, there were a few points in the Mahasi Sayadaw article I was > considering discussing, but I'll wait til I know you're still around > first. I hope you saw my other posts to you. > =========================================== 38157 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:14am Subject: Wrong Speech- Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Friend Rob M., And the talk continues... We are all aware of the increasing pollution of our planet. We know that cars put out exhaust, factories put out smoke, and trash pollutes our water and land. But there is also another type of pollution which is increasing that is polluting our planet, a pollution that is difficult to control and sometimes difficult to see, and that is the pollution of wrong speech. Evil words, false words, abusive words, hurtful words, they pollute our world just as significantly as physical pollution, and unfortunately this type of pollution is increasing. There are now radio shows, television shows, newspapers, magazines and Internet sites which spew out hateful words and false words which are just as hurtful as the world's physical pollution. But instead of putting a hole in the Ozone Layer, like physical pollution, these words are putting a hole in each of our hearts. Imagine that each time you use wrong speech it is as if a thick black smoke spews from your mouth and chokes all of those who surround you. Actually, in Buddhism it is said that those who use wrong speech, especially lying, will be reborn with bad breath. Well, no one wants to have bad breath! And we probably don't want to pollute our world with wrong speech either, so what can we do? We have to be aware of what is Right Speech. This is how the Buddha defined Right Speech, "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech." Lying is the worst type of wrong speech because of the intent to deceive. You see, some other types of wrong speech, like using profanity and hurtful words, usually happen spontaneously and come from the hatred and anger in the mind, but lying requires planning and premeditation to say something which is false. We should all be dedicated to the truth- to speaking that which is true and to knowing what is true. Truth is the supreme value. Lying shouldn't be done, even if it is for someone else's benefit. Divisive speech is speech which divides people. Repeating something that someone else said, when there is the possibility that those words will cause bad feelings and broken friendships, should not be done. Even if those words are true and it was actually said, it should not be repeated if it could divide people. We should all be dedicated to creating harmony between people, not dividing them. Harsh speech is speech which tries to harm the listener. This type of speech can be abusive, insulting, or sarcastic and it arises from anger within the mind. Some people may feel that hurting someone with words is not as bad as physically hurting him or her, but harsh words do actually hurt; sometimes they hurt even more than physical blows. We should all try to restrain ourselves from lashing out at others with harsh speech. We need to develop patience so that anger doesn't make us hurt others with our speech. The last type of wrong speech that the Buddha described is idle chatter. Idle chatter is speech that has no reason to be spoken. All speech should be for a reason and the best reason for speaking is to help others develop wisdom. But some people like to talk as a form of entertainment or to kill time. It seems that some people just like to talk to hear the sound of their own voice-this is idle chatter. The problem with idle chatter is that it clouds the mind and turns people away from wisdom. We should all avoid idle chatter. As the saying goes, often times, `Silence is Golden'. We face a serious problem in today's world with the wrong speech of others. It is a pollution that clouds our hearts and minds from the beauty of wisdom. The way to solve this problem is to start at the individual level. We need to each do our part to ensure that we don't use wrong speech, and thus the world with be just a little bit cleaner for wisdom to grow. As far as the harsh speech of others, we should have the wisdom and patience to forbear it, to not let it affect the purity of our minds, and to not take part or participate. The outer world reflects the inner world. Let us make the outer world beautiful to reflect the beauty that is possible in each of us. Next I will talk to you about Right Action. (To be continued…) Metta, James 38158 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:16am Subject: Right Speech (was Re: Wrong Speech- Noble Eightfold Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Oops...typed the wrong title. 38159 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 119 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbana as ultimate realities. No other things are realities. Only these four are real in their ultimate sense and they are always true at any given time and at anywhere. Dhamma Thread have explained on different classifications on cittas and then different kinds of citta, followed by different cetasikas and finally rupa matters are explained. There is a fourth ultimate realities. It is nibbana. Nibbana the term derives from 'nivana' or 'nirvana'. 'Ni' means 'nikkhanta' or liberated from 'vana' or binding. Vana is the dhamma that bind various different lives in the samsara. So nibbana means liberated from binding in the samsara. This binding is tanha. Even though there is a single nibbana as its nature, nibbana is talked to have two different forms, saupadisesa nibbana and anupadisesa nibbana. Saupadisesa nibbana is nibbana when sattas are still in the samsara are when they are alive. This nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti. Nirodha means disappearance and samapatti means to be in a state of. Anupadisesa nibbana is the state immediately after cuti citta of arahats. Immediately after cuti citta of arahats, there is no more kammaja rupa, cittaja rupa and aharaja rupa. That state from the sattas just gone to nibbana is said to be the state of nibbana called anupadisesa nibbana as there is no trace of so called satta that is no citta, no cetasika, no kammaja rupa, no citta rupa, and no aharaja rupa. Utuja rupa just left is like other bahiddhika rupa and not attached to any satta. So such nibbana is a complete and absolute peace. This is the state all Buddhists are trying to attain after their paccima bhava or final life . From view point of contemplation, there are three kinds of nibbana. They are sunnata nibbana, animitta nibbana, and appanihita nibbana. Sunnata nibbana means nibbana is free of arammana for tanha to arise. There is no atta or ego in ultimate sense. Nibbana is free of attajiva or any self or any life. So as there is free of such life, self or anything, the nibbana is called sunnata nibbana or voided emptiness of peace. When ariya-to-be was contemplating on dhamma as anatta, then the nibbana that he saw when magga citta arose is called sunnata nibbana. Because as he was viewing as anatta, and as there is no atta and free of atta, then the nibbana that he saw is called sunnata nibbana. Animitta nibbana means nibbana is free of raga, kilesa and it is free of bases and causal things. When ariya-to-be was viewing dhamma at magga citta, if he saw dhamma as anicca, then the nibbana that he saw is called animitta nibbana. Because there is no nicca or permanent nimitta in dhamma. So his nibbana is animitta nibbana. Appanihita nibbana means nibbana is not to be craving for as in cases of tanha, raga, kilesa, etc etc. When ariya-to-be was viewing dhamma at magga citta, if he saw dhamma as dukkha or suffering then the nibbana that he saw is called appanihita nibbana. Because nibbana is free of tanha, raga, and any defilements. Even though these are contemplated, there is only a single nibbana in terms of its character and in ultimate sense. Nibbana is an absolute peace. This peace can be understood by viewing absence of any fire or any suffering. When not in nibbana or not in the state of nibbana, then sattas will be in the domain of sankhata dhamma. This means that they all will be in loka that includes kama loka or kama realms or sensual sphere, rupa loka or rupa brahma realms or fine material sphere and arupa loka or arupa brahma realms or immaterial sphere. As long as satta are in these realms that is 31 realms, then they all will be in their samsara and they will be suffering from different kinds of suffering. These sufferings are called fires. When fires are all totally extinguished, the absence of fires in the presence of which are hot and disagreeable, will make complete peace and free of suffering. By comparison its absence can be realised as absolute peace while its presence is hot, making restless and peaceless. Nibbana is not rupa dhamma. It is nama dhamma. Nibbana is not a khandha or aggregate. But nibbana can be arammana or object of mind. Nibbana is dhammarammana. Nibbana can be ayatana. It is dhammayatana. Ayatana are dhamma or nature that are the cause of arising of citta by being arammana or object or by being dvara or door. Citta, cetasika, and rupa are constituted in 18 kinds of dhatu or dhamma elements. Nibbana can be dhamma dhatu. But nibbana is not sankhata dhatu as in cases of citta, cetasika, and rupa. Nibbana is asankhata dhatu. Sankhata dhatu are those whose arising and existence are influenced by one of four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. Nibbana cannot be influenced by these four causes. Nibbana is asankhata dhatu. It is absolute peace and free of any suffering and any fire. So nibbana is what all Buddhists are intended as their destination. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38160 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:31am Subject: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) Dear Joop and all How are you? So you got your idea from David Kalupahana? Do you know that Kalupahana is a Sanskritist and merely a paid- academic? As such, Kalupahana's opinions about Acariya Buddhaghosa or Theravada Buddhism are speculative in nature and should not be taken as facts. To whomever it may concern, when I describe someone's opinions as speculative, I merely mean that their opinions cannot be treated as though they were truth-facts produced by repeated and repeatable scientific experiments. How can we know that Kalupahana is not a man of science? He got his PhD from a religious studies department and works in a department of philosophy. He is a man of arts. In short, whatever he wrote about Acariya Buddhaghosa and Theravada Buddhism are merely his own personal opinions, not the outcomes of scientific experiments. Moreover, Kalupahana's Pali scholarship is very questionable, and as such it is very doubtful that he had, extensively and deeply, read Standard Pali Commentaries translated and edited by Acariya Buddhaghosa. Thus, his opinions about Acariya Buddhaghosa cannot be regarded as reliable sources of information. Therefore, Joop, when you wrote (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada), you should not have asserted it as a fact. You should have mentioned your source such as Kalupahana. Of course, you could agree with his personal opinions by all means. In future, please be careful not to accuse Acariya Buddhaghosa of committing the crime he never did. Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. From Acariya Buddhaghosa's A.t.thasaalinii Ganthaarambhakathaa. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > Dear Joop and all > Joop wrote: > > "And regarding Theravada, I think it's good to study (also in this > DSG) the history of the first centuries after the parinibbana of the > Buddha (before Buddhagosa made a system of Theravada) to understand > why the differentiation of Buddhism started." > What do you mean by "(before Buddhagosa made a system ofTheravada)"? > If it were not your original idea, where did you get that? > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > Hallo Abhidhammika Who made a system of Christianity? Not Christ or his direct disciples. But a Paulus (formerly Saulus) in his moralistic letters; and scholastics in the (western) middle ages; and reformers like Luther. Making a system is for exemple not accepting that there are lose ends or any internal contradictions. How did I get the idea that Buddhaghosa played the most important role in making a system of Theravada? By reading chapter XXI, "Buddhaghosa, the Harmonizer", in "A History of Buddhist Philosopy. Continuities and Discontinuities" by David Kalupahana (University of Hawai Press, 1992) Metta Joop 38161 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, I'm sorry that it sounds to you like I'm constructing straw men to argue with. I must be misunderstanding where you are coming from. I have been directing my thoughts to the following straw Sarahs: Straw Sarah 1: "For insight to arise, there must first be right conceptual understanding. That right conceptual understanding comes from hearing, reading, considering, discussing the words of the Buddha." Straw Sarah 2: "Those outside the dispensation cannot have right view." Do these sound like you? There are others too, I'm sure, but these two are prominent. Metta, Dan 38162 From: Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah (and Dan) - In a message dated 11/11/04 1:57:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: Before studying the Buddha’s words, was there really any understanding > at all about namas and rupas in any language or non-language at all? > Didn’t we take seeing and hearing for being ‘my seeing and hearing’, > wasn’t it my body experienced rather than heat, hardness and so on? Was > there any clear understanding of the distinction between hearing and > sound. Is there now, even after hearing and studying a lot? Wasn’t it all > taken for self and other beings and things? > > There can’t be complete ignorance and wrong view with occasional deep > insights arising from highly developed satipatthana in between without any > doubts about self or the path. > ======================= If I may butt in: I do think it is possible for one who has not heard the Dhamma, but who has the tendency and habit, perhaps even starting as a child*, to just "look" at the world of experience as it arises and from a state of quiet musing and attention, to get a glimpse of the vast impersonal, uncontrollable and ungraspable reality that is rolling on, momentarily losing sense of self or of solidity and separateness to things, and, unaccompanied by word or thought, to just stare in wonder at "that". But then the moment passes, and, not having heard the Dhamma, one is unable to characterize what one has seen. The immediacy of the experience then slips away, leaving no conceptual understanding or adequate recollection, but still leaving, however, traces and effects that condition the mind, pushing it in the right direction, inclining it towards the long search for freedom. With metta, Howard *I recall experiences of my own as a young child in which this ordinary world of experience took on a new, magical appearance, not seen before yet strikingly familiar. I also recall that subsequent to that, I read some writing by Tennyson of "mystical" experiences of his that were similar. I haven't been able to find this writing of his. However, I have been able to find the following little piece that, in its own way, expresses several features compatible with the Dhamma, including the centrality of change, the fact that we all live in a dream world of our own making, a world in which we have faith, but a world actually without essence, without pause, which is not statically self-existent, but is "made". > All thoughts, all creeds, all dreams are true, >    All visions wild and strange; > Man is the measure of all truth >    Unto himself. All truth is change. > All men do walk in sleep, and all >    Have faith in that they dream: > For all things arc as they seem to all, >    And all things flow like a stream. > > There is no rest, no calm, no pause, >    Nor good nor ill, nor light nor shade, > Nor essence nor eternal laws: >    For nothing is, but all is made. > But if I dream that all these are, >    They are to me for that I dream; > For all,things are as they seem to all, >    And all things flow like a stream. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38163 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:17am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hi Nina, I've snipped a few sections for comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. > > Intro Vis. 111: > > Kamma conditions the last javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) > that arise before the dying-consciousness. Whatever object these cittas > experience, that is also the object of the next rebirth- consciousness. L: Does this make these javana cittas kamma vipaka? Later you say the javana cittas correspond to the ethical value of the object (kusala or akusala); what if the object is unpleasant, a corpse for example, couldn't the javana be kusala or akusala? Do these javana cittas directly affect the next life or is it just the object that points the way? Can these javanas be jhana cittas or lokuttara? > We should remember that the rebirth-consciousness, the > bhavanga-citta and the dying-consciousness are cittas which are door-freed > (dvara-vimutta) and process-freed (viithi-vimutta). They do not experience > an object that impinges on one of the six doors like the cittas arising in > processes. They merely experience a copy or echo of the object experienced > by the last javana-cittas of the preceding life. We are unable to know what > kind of object this is. L: Whatever it is the object of bhavanga citta in this life is a sign of the general nature of this life, correct? Welcome back. I hope all is well. Larry 38164 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:11am Subject: two viewings of anatta Hi all, Here are a couple of ideas for your consideration. In order to penetrate ignorance and directly see the anatta (not self) characteristic of an object it is necessary to see either the relational nature or the non-relational nature of the object. The relational nature of an object is its identity. Identity is conceptual (name and meaning) and is defined _in_ relationship to other and _as_ relationship of parts. Identity is anatta because it cannot be found with logic. The non-relational nature is the opposite, i.e., nameless and meaningless. The non-relational nature has no identity and is anatta because "self" (atta) is identity. The non-relational nature is non-conceptual experience similar to the mindfulness of "thus he lives contemplating the body in the body," etc. as found in the Satipatthana Sutta. The relational nature can be seen directly as a result of the ultimate analysis of Madhyamaka which is the same as the analysis of the chariot and the person. For example, if an unpleasant feeling arises and one wants to see its relational nature one could look at the conceptual whole of consciousness and feeling, or feeling and object of feeling, or "me" and feeling with the idea "feeling _is_ consciousness and feeling" etc. Here one cannot put ones finger on the relationship which is identity, so we can actually "see" or experience that this "whole" phenomenon is empty of self or core but is nevertheless capable of performing a function. If one wanted to see its non-relational nature one could simply contemplate the feeling in the feeling. Non- relational understanding is mindfulness of ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma). Here "anatta" means "not a concept". Feeling is just feeling. This can be extremely vivid but non-threatening because there is no one to threaten. These two approaches show the anatta characteristic of concept (relational) and reality (non-relational). We can easily see the emptiness of emails and views in general by looking for their relational nature. Comments? Larry 38165 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 117 ) Dear Htoo, op 10-11-2004 20:46 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Vatthu and ayatana sometimes need to be cleared. In that case > translation may become hard job. N: Very hard, because in English also for ayaatana sensebase is used. We need the Pali. Thanks also for answering about rupavipaka, it is clear what you mean. you write: Again, here 'maha' seems a superfluous word. But it is not. Because there are three kinds of kusala that is kama, rupa and arupa depending on bhumi base, it is called 'mahakusala' to differentiate if from rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas. N: I heard about maha, great, in maha-kusala, that it has many kinds of objects. Nina. 38166 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: Htoo's Cetasikas Sarah: A few extra comments: O90 Ahirika and Anottappa – you referred to 9 bala dhamma (#37526) (owers). I'm interested as I don't remember reading about akusala bala dhamma. I'd be glad if you'd say more on these. I only know about the 5 included in the bodhipakkiya dhammas. `As bala dhamma, ahirika and anottapa always lead all akusala dhamma….' Very good. No shame about akusala at these times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, There are 9 bala dhammas. They are 1. saddha 2. viriya 3. sati 4. samadhi 5. panna These 5 bala dhammas also appear as 5 indriya dhammas. In suddavasa 5 bhmuis, there are anagams and arahats. Their realms are according to the strength of these 5 indriya in serial order. If saddha is very strong anagams will be reborn in aviha, vyriya to atappa, sati to sudassa, samadhi to sudassi and panna to akanittha brahma bhumi. There are other 4 bala dhammas. They are 6. hiri bala 7. otappa bala 8. ahirika bala and 9. anottappa bala. Hiri and otappa are kusala dhamma. But even though they are leading dhamma ( bala- the leader of a troop ), they do not serve as Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. But in kusala dhamma when these 2 friends work well, they are worthy of bala dhamma. By the same token ahirika and anottappa are akusala dhamma and when they prevail, any akusala can be committed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Your comments on sati and many other factors were particularly good. There were one or two points on a couple of others I meant to pick up on – I think Phil questioned one that was not quite so clear – but it'll have to be later if and when I come across them again. I rather rushed to catch up after our holiday and I want to thank you now, rather than looking for the others. Anumodana….great work indeed! i hope the series continues to a 1000!! It's your best, I think. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your support. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38167 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Straw Sarah 1: "For insight to arise, there must first be right > conceptual understanding. That right conceptual understanding comes > from hearing, reading, considering, discussing the words of the > Buddha." > > Straw Sarah 2: "Those outside the dispensation cannot have right > view." > > Do these sound like you? There are others too, I'm sure, but these > two are prominent. ... S: It's not my idea that counts at all. It's what the Buddha taught to be proved by us that matters. The first sounds correct, depending on what you mean by 'right conceptual understanding'. The second would need clarification as to what right view is being referred to here. Is it satipatthana? Better to quote the 'Real Sarah' quoting from the texts in context, so here goes - this is what I just found when I searched for 'dispensation' under my name: ***** From: "sarah abbott" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:07:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on "Conceptual right view" [Sarah and Ken] Oh Dan (& Ken H), Originally as you know, I joined in the discussion because you were asserting something to the effect that there could not be right view with concepts as objects. I pointed out that there were many kinds of right view, including those kinds accompanying moments of samatha bhavana. There can be reflection on any aspect of the Dhamma under this umbrella with right view, but no one here has suggested or is suggesting that reflection on kamma or on namas and rupas or any other aspect of the Dhamma is necessarily even kusala, let alone with right view. It depends on the cittas as usual, not on any terms or labels. In brief, I think you have something of a straw man argument going on here as you pick out one line here or there;-). No one is suggesting that (wise) reflection about kamma or any other aspects of the Teachings is the same as satipatthana. Of course if we take mere thinking for right understanding of realities, it’s wrong. Also, neither Ken H or I would ever suggest that a practice of intellectualizing or book study could equate with any development of satipatthana. In fact we both go to lengths on DSG to say the opposite as I said before. On the other hand, if there is no hearing, considering and reflecting on namas and rupas, on conditions including kamma or other aspects of the Teachings, especially anatta, there cannot and will not be any development of satipatthana, no matter how much kusala there is of other kinds. So yes, someome who has never heard the Dhamma may have much more kusala in a day than someone with a lot of book knowledge of the Teachings. But, the first person has no chance of developing the Eightfold or fivefold path and thereby finding an ‘escape’ from samsara. --- "Dan D." wrote: > Can you help jog my memory? Is it in the commentaries to the > Satipatthana sutta that pariyatti is discussed? Or where? …. Here are just a few brief quotes from ‘Dispeller’, Vbg-A, which I have handy: 1.1954 “For which reasons do they (Discriminations) become manifest? (1) Through attainment (adhigama), (2) through competency [in scriptures] (pariyatti), (3) through hearing (sa.vana), (4) through being questioned, (5) through previous work (yoga). “Herein, ……(2) ‘Competency [in scriptures]’ (pariyatti) is the Buddha’s word; for the Discriminations become manifest as one is learning that… 2. 2169 “For there are threee kinds of disappearance (antaradhaana) [S: of the Buddha sasana]: 1) disappearance of competency (pariyatti), 2) disappearance of penetration (pa.tivedha) and 3) disappearance of practice (pa.tipatti). Herein, 1) competency is the three Pi.takas; 2) the ‘penetration’ is the penetration of the Truths; 3) the ‘practice’ is the way….. 3.2350 “And one who is without understanding sits in the midst of his supporters and makes a show of his great understanding by speaking thus: ‘As I was looking up in the Majjhima Nikaaya the three kinds of proliferation, I came to the path with the miraculous powers. Competency in the scriptures is not difficult for us. But one who gets involved in scriptural competency is not released from suffering, so we gave up scriptural competency.’ And so on. But one who speaks thus strikes a blow at the dispensation. There is no greater rogue (mahaacora) than this. For it is not a fact that an expert in the scriptures is *not* released from suffering.” So we all agree that expertise in the scriptures does not in itself lead to satipatthana and whilst reciting, reading or considering, the cittas may be kusala or akusala. Ken and I would say in addition, I think, that there may or may not be a measure of right understanding with the kusala cittas, though no one is suggesting that this would be satipatthana when there are merely concepts about dhammas as objects of course. In addition, we all agree that wrong view can slip in anytime, especially if one has an idea that by reading the text at any time will of itself lead to satipatthana. In the latter case, there is definitely a view with ‘conventional right effort’ based on an idea of ‘self’ as you suggest. I hope this clarifies and hope I can extricate myself from this thread til my return;-) ****** S: And I see that was written before our trip away and it was KenH who neatly side-stepped. Dan, I'm looking forward to your answers to any of the further questions in my second post to you yesterday. I apologise for the first frivolous math one, even though it was sent in friendship. Metta, Sarah ===== 38168 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard (& Dan), Thanks for joining in. I hope others do as well. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > If I may butt in: I do think it is possible for one who has not > heard > the Dhamma, but who has the tendency and habit, perhaps even starting as > a > child*, to just "look" at the world of experience as it arises and from > a state > of quiet musing and attention, to get a glimpse of the vast impersonal, > uncontrollable and ungraspable reality that is rolling on, momentarily > losing sense > of self or of solidity and separateness to things, and, unaccompanied by > word > or thought, to just stare in wonder at "that". ..... S: There are definitely resons and conditions why for some of us, when we hear the Dhamma, it immediately has some impact and rings true and it's most unlikely that we haven't heard it in previous life-times I'd think. Still, in order for satipatthana to develop, we have to hear it again in this life and it is only by this gradual development that insights can be attained. So those glimpses and quiet musings while we were children may have helped put us on the track and reflect some deeply accumulated right views of some kind or other, but unless we're a Buddha, we still have to hear the Teachings again before there can be any chance of insight (vipassana) arising. .... >But then the moment > passes, and, > not having heard the Dhamma, one is unable to characterize what one has > seen. > The immediacy of the experience then slips away, leaving no conceptual > understanding or adequate recollection, but still leaving, however, > traces and > effects that condition the mind, pushing it in the right direction, > inclining it > towards the long search for freedom. .... S: I have no problem with this, Howard, as long as one doesn't cling to it or consider it as 'insight' or vipassana nana. I'm sure these experiences ring a bell with many of us. Thanks for sharing. Again I stress, that those who have never heard or considered the Buddha's teachings may be very great, wonderful people. But without hearing about and developing an understanding of realities as anatta, there will be no growth of detachment from self and no release from samsara as I understand. Look forward to any more comments you or Dan or others may have. Metta, Sarah ======= 38169 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Red hat revisited ( was Re: [dsg] Re: There is a Practice) Hello Nina, and all >>>>N: Yes, it has to begin. I find it very helpful to consider the six doors and the fact that only one dhamma is experienced at a time through one doorway. The suttas remind us time and again of this. That is very daily, dhammas are experienced one at a time, no matter there is awareness of them or not. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. No attention to the image of a whole or the details. But we have to get used to this, it has to sink in. We always thought that we see people and things. There can be just a moment of correct understanding and this is the condition for higher understanding. It has to begin with correct thinking, correct intellectual understanding. The purpose is not more awareness but more understanding. Phil: Nina, I wanted to tell you about an experience I had while you were away. I've already posted about it once, but I don't think I explained it clearly at that time. It realtes to "dhammas are experienced one at a time, not matter there is awareness of them", and to the questions K Sujin asks so often - "is there seeing now?" I was cycling by the beach and as I tend to do at times, trying too consciously to see if I could "see." To test that "is there seeing now?" Of course that's not the way we're supposed to go about it. But at least I learned that the answer is "no" for me. This came when I saw a man's red cap, and I had insight into how quickly the mind leaps ahead to process the visual object and colour and make it into a "cap." And I sensed at that moment that I might never be able to answer "yes" to "is there seeing now?" but at least I had gained a kind of clear insight into how fast the mind leaps to form concepts. So even being able to answser "no" to that question is liberating, I think. We have gained insight into how fast processes are, how there is no self that can control them. N >>>"There can be just a moment of correct understanding and this is the condition for higher understanding. It has to begin with correct thinking, corret intellectual understanding." Phil: I think this applies to what was going on that day by the beach. I was thinking about K Sujin's teaching, albeit in an overly intent way, and it seemed to condition a moment of correct understanding when I saw that I *didn't* see when I saw that cap. Who knows what deeper understanding was or wasn't conditioned in that moment? Saddha says well done and keep at it! Metta, Phil 38170 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dhamma Greetings to everyone, I am new to this list and would like to have some definitions given so I can further understand what is actually being said. I have practiced meditation for a long time with the Mahasi method and was very successful in that practice, but was not satisfied by the end results, mostly because they don't agree with what the suttas tell us. I do know the list of insights that you refer to very intimately and through direct knowledge but I was still not satisfied. So I began a search on my own. I ran across a senior monk who gave me some advice that was very helpful. I know by saying this it will cause some here to not agree with me but he said to put down the Visuddhi Magga and other commentaries and just go to the suttas for my information. The reason he told me to do this is the information given in the Visuddhi Magga doesn't agree 100% with the teachings in the suttas. When I did that the understanding of the suttas became very clear to me. Why? Because I was not clouded by what the commentaries said. Enough of this, I see the word "insight" used very often and wonder what meaning it has for you. "Insight" into what? I know the answer that you will give and that is "insight" into the true nature of all existence. But what does that really mean according to the suttas? To me the "insight" that arises from truly seeing and understanding the impersonal process of dependent origination, is the "insight" we should be looking at. Not some surface "insight" into nama/rupa alone. Another word that is used very often is "pan~n~a". I know the literal meaning is "wisdom" but this seems to me to be a word like "god" everyone knows that word but what does it mean? In the eight fold path the first link is called "sammaditthi" or as the current translation says "Right View or Understanding" but I think this translation may lack real meaning. If you would use the words "harmonious perspective" maybe they would help in clear communication. "Wisdom" has "Harmonious Perspective" in it. But "Harmonious Perspective" of what? To me it is the clear seeing, knowing, and understanding of the impersonal process of how dependent origination actually arises in every moment. Another word that seems to be used a lot is the Pali word "anatta". This word has come to mean "no-self" but maybe a better word to use is "impersonal". The "Impersonal" nature of all phenomena as opposed to the 'no-self ' nature of all phenomena changes ones perspective of what is being said. There seems to be on this site a real worry about what is "not-self" so the use of "impersonal" can help to clear up what the Buddha meant. Because I came from a background of meditation practice I always refer to everything I say back to the practice of what can be seen directly and not what can be understood through concepts. This constantly analyzing of different ideas seems to be a "western disease" that hinders true understanding of one's direct experience. I have been teaching meditation for over 20 years all over the world and when someone comes to me who is interested in meditation I tell them to put any and all books that they have read or are reading away and just meditate for at least one year. Why? Because the concepts and thinking are so slow that it gets in the way of seeing the Dhamma for oneself. When I was practicing meditation in Burma, one of my teachers who was an abhidhamma scholar (by the name of Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa) told me that when he went to the Mahasi Meditation center, the first thing his teacher told him was to put away all that he had learned about abhidhamma and just do the practice of meditation. He told me that this was a very hard thing to do for him. He had spent years memorizing books about abhidhamma (there are about 15 books that have to be memorized and then he had to take very comprehensive test in order to get the title bhivamsa added to his name). Anyway, he had trouble with his mind always trying to analyze what arose when he had a meditation experience. The thinking about ones experience takes one out of the present moment. The conceptual and analytical thinking stopped him from the real practice of meditation, until he learned to let it go. Only then did he begin to see exactly how the descriptions of dhamma were true. What is the true definition of the word Sati? I know the common answer is "mindfulness", Right? This is another word like "god" I know the general meaning of this word but what does it actually mean, according to the Buddha-Dhamma? Please let me give a definition that may be useful "Sati" means the 'direct observation of watching the movements of mind', By this I mean seeing directly with a calm mind "HOW" mind changes from one object to another. I hope this has been helpful in making the definitions of some of these words more clear. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38171 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Sarah, > > > S: Is this the deep penetrative insight into the characteristic of a > > > reality or is it thinking about suffering – a kind of conceptual > > > understanding? > > > > Penetrative insight. > ….. > S: Penetrative insight into what reality? Gosh, pick one. Let's say, "dukkha as one of the tilakkhana." > S: The only way to have any idea about another's understanding is by > discussion (and then of course it's subject to one's limited > understanding). According to what the Buddha taught, I don't think this is correct. It isn't a frequent topic of discussion in the suttas, but didn't he say something along the lines that you cannot have a fair assessment of a person's understanding unless you have lived with them for a long period of time, known them very well, and been able to observe their actions in a variety of situations? > For example, if someone has had insights, but knows nothing about the > realities of seeing and visible object now at this moment, these insights > are not those as taught by the Buddha. "...these insights are not those as taught by the Buddha"?! Buddha didn't teach insights, Sarah. He taught concepts. Words are inherently abstract and conceptual. To be sure, Buddha's abstractions and conceptualizations are good descriptions of reality but are not reality itself nor are they insights. There's a clear and stark distinction between insight into reality and the language with which one describes it. Buddha's words are in no sense the "one path", but they do describe the one path well. A description of a deep, penetrating, mundane insight that could well be made by someone who hadn't heard a whisper of Buddha's teachings might run like this: "Ultimately, pleasure does not lead to happiness." A more Buddhist description might run like this: "Dukkha is characteristic of vedana." If someone who has never heard Buddha's words doesn't understand what meaning you attach to them or is unable to use them fluently in conversation, it is no indication whatsoever that they have zero insight into reality. Instead, it is simply testimony that they are not familiar with his words. > > At the same time, the insight is quite shallow. It may not be deep > > enough even to inspire the construction of an explicit conceptual > > formulation for the insight, in which case it would not be discussed, > > thought about very much, or consolidated in any meaningful way. … > ….. > S: OK, but then I'd say it's not the development of satipatthana or the > insights that may arise from a firm development of such. Not a firm development, no. It's tender. > > Without consolidation, deeper insight may not have occasion to arise > > for a long, long time. Shallow also in the sense that the 4NT are > > extremely deep, and insight into them is developed gradually, over > > long periods of time. > …. > S: By the development of satipatthana which begins with repeated awareness > and understanding into presently arising namas and rupas. While there are > doubts about the path and ideas of self, I'm not sure I'd refer to moments > of satipatthana as suggesting even a shallow insight of any kind into the > 4NT. That's fine, Sarah, as long as I know how you are using terms... Do you have any textual support for your notion that there is not even a shallow insight of any kind into the 4NT before enlightenment (sotapanna+)? > > > S: Suffering as a characteristic of what? > > > > The presently arising moment. > …. > S: This sounds like thinking about suffering along with your first > comment, `On occasion, there may be a clear comprehension that without > craving, there is no > suffering.' Surely `the present arising moment' is a concept, not a > reality with any characteristic at all. No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. > > > S: "These `shallower insights', defined by you as `most any insight > > short > > > of supramundane path consciousness', were into precisely what > > realities > > > before we studied the `Buddha's words'? > > > > Namas & rupas, their characteristics, and their relations. Obviously, > > though, before studying the Buddha's words we wouldn't describe them > > in that way. > …. > S: Before studying the Buddha's words, was there really any understanding > at all about namas and rupas in any language or non-language at all? > Didn't we take seeing and hearing for being `my seeing and hearing', > wasn't it my body experienced rather than heat, hardness and so on? Was > there any clear understanding of the distinction between hearing and > sound. Is there now, even after hearing and studying a lot? Wasn't it all > taken for self and other beings and things? Sure. Almost always we took hearing and seeing as "my seeing and hearing". But not always. If pressed to describe it, a non-Buddhist would use non-Buddhist words to describe it and might even reach for the concept of Self. (I can't help but think there'd be a deep-seated nagging doubt about the description, though.) > There can't be complete ignorance and wrong view with occasional deep > insights arising from highly developed satipatthana in between without any > doubts about self or the path. > ….. I'm sorry, Sarah, I read that sentence several times, but I still can't figure out what you mean. If doubt still arises, the texts are clear that satipatthana has not developed to the point of stream-entry. I don't have any problem with that. But are you saying that mundane insight also eradicates a subsequent tendency to doubt? I don't buy that... > > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to refer > > to? > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind states, > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and dukkha. > …. > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? > > At moments of insight, there is no idea or sense of "who". > > Afterwards, the insight can easily be mangled by constructing a > > conceptual scheme that includes an idea of a "who" that has insights. > …. > S: We have a different use of the word insight here. If we're talking > about the insights starting with namarupa pariccheda nana, there will be > no question or doubt or idea about who has had such insights. I agree that > in the beginning when satipatthana is weak, there are bound to be such > doubts and views in between the occasional moments of awareness. > > > If there is no precise understanding of dhammas, of namas and > > rupas, is it > > > possible to develop any detachment from an idea of self at all? > > > > I believe not -- unless when you say "precise understanding", you > > really mean being able to fluently rattle off racks of Pali terms and > > logically piece together their definitions and relations. > …. > S: That's one of those strawman arguments again ;-) When you say things like "precise understanding of dhammas", you seem to be referring to precise conceptual descriptions of dhammas. A precise description of an understanding is quite different from the understanding itself. Is it possible for a wise person to have a clumsy tongue, to not be able to communicate clearly? > > Insight begins shallow and gradually deepens. If you like to look at > > the "levels of insight" through a hierarchy of: > > 1. Namarupaparicchedañana; > > 2. Paccayapariggahañana; > > 3. Sammasanañana; > > 4. Udayabbayañana; > > 5. Bhangañana; > > etc., that's fine. > …. > S: It's not a question of what I'd like to look at. It's a question of > what we read in the texts and which I personally have no reason to doubt. I read in the texts about patisankhañana -- knowledge of reflection (Vism XXI, 47+). "He sees all formations as impermanent for the following reasons: because they are non-continuous, temporary, limited by rise and fall, disintegrating, [etc.]. He sees them as painful for the following reasons: because they are continously oppressed, hard to bear, [etc.]. ... why does he discern them in this way? In order to contrive the means of deliverance." That sounds to me like the "lower" insights are revisited over and over again, deepening the understanding in a search for deliverance. In the midst of this revisiting, udayabbayañana is not necessarily "lower" than bhangañana. > >Then, with only a relatively shallow (but direct > > and penetrative) insight at level 1, > … > S: an oxymoron;-) I don't see it. You are saying that there are not varying degrees of depth of insight? Not even a distinction between tender insight, mundane vipassana, and supramundane insight? > >the other insights are possible > > (and do arise) but only at a similar degree of depth. These insights > > are gradually developed to greater and greater depth in concert, > > going "up and down" the list repeatedly. > … > S: Show me the text!! See above. > > The notion that a thorough and very deep understanding of > > namarupapariccheda is prerequisite for even relatively shallow > > insight into the other characteristics CAN slow the development of > > insight by hindering the conceptualization and consolidation of the > > other insights. > … > S: Again, show me the text. Also what do you mean by `the other > characteristics'? I'm not clear here at all. If there's a kink in the way the namarupapariccheda words hit the ear and get translated into concept so that the hearer stumbles on the words but doesn't realize he or she is stumbling, lingering on that language could well be a hindrance. > From Vism XV111,36 > > "The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which after defining > mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established on > the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being, is > what should be understood as purification of view." > … > >It doesn't NECESSARILY slow the development, though, > > because these several aspects of insight that you call "levels" are > > closely related. > …. > S: Stages or levels, but not aspects. "Aspects" isn't the greatest, but ultimately, the "insights" are just different manifestations of understanding the tilakkhana in sankhara. In MN24, Rathaviniita Sutta, we read > about the simile of the relay chariots to refer to the 7 Visuddhi or > stages of insight. `Then King Pasenadi of Kosala, leaving Saavatthii > through the inner palace door, would mount the first relay chariot, and by > means of the first relay chariot he would arrive at the second relay > chariot…….seventh chariot, and by means of the seventh chariot he would > arrive at the inner palace door in Saaketa….." In the same way, the 7 > purifications are described. Right. But later there may arise this insight or that insight. > >. Believing in the reality of concepts such as cars, > > trees, Self, etc. puts a limit on the depth of insight that can be > > attained; but at a moment of insight, there is > > no "car", "tree", "Self", "belief". > … > S: I would put it the other way round and say that while there is still > any believing in the reality of concepts such as cars etc, there won't be > any development of satipatthana, let alone any insights. Heh-heh! :) This sounds very much like "no satipatthana or insights until stream- entry." How can I say that? Because "believing in the reality of concepts" sounds a lot like ditthi, which is not eradicated until stream-entry. It's easy to say, "I don't believe in the reality of concepts such as cars, etc." and actually believe what you say; but it's quite another thing to really eradicate the view. Uff da! I'm running out of time. Just one more quick comment... > > NOTE: when the Buddha or an > > enlightened person uses the words, they are describing reality; when > > unenlightened people use the words, they are just speculating because > > their conceptions of "nama", "rupa", "anatta", etc. are wrong. > …. > S: It depends. There may be wholesome thinking and reflection about > realities not based on direct understanding or based on direct > understanding or a combination. If the speech is wholesome and the view is > right, it's certainly not wrong! > > Of course there may also be unwholesome thinking and reflection based on > either of the above and in this case whether or not the view is right, > it's wrong, because of being unwholesome. As Nina said once, I think, > `let's mind our own cittas'! > …. Oh, Sarah! I'm using "wrong" to mean "incorrect", not akusala! There is nothing inherently wrong with being wrong. And the conceptions are incorrect because the referents of the conceptions are not known -- how could they be correct? > S: Great effort….I'll look forward to a few more answers;-). You always > help me to consider carefully, Dan. I hope I've also addressed the points > you wish to have addressed here. You entirely missed the points I was hoping you'd address, maybe we'll get to that later. Metta, Dan 38172 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" > S: Again I stress, that those who have never heard or considered the Buddha's > teachings may be very great, wonderful people. But without hearing about > and developing an understanding of realities as anatta, there will be no > growth of detachment from self and no release from samsara as I > understand. Sarah, some of the most selfless, "detached from self" people in the world know nothing about the Buddha or his teachings -- they have no conception of "anatta" per se, but they have such a strong sense of detachment from self that I can't help but think their understanding of the characteristic of anatta is deeper than many Buddhists who could talk circles around them. 38173 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, There are two questions that I was hoping you would address regarding the two straw Sarahs. > > Straw Sarah 1: "For insight to arise, there must first be right > > conceptual understanding. That right conceptual understanding comes > > from hearing, reading, considering, discussing the words of the > > Buddha." If there is conceptual understanding about, say, namarupapariccheda with no direct understanding on which to base it, how is that anything other than speculation? > > Straw Sarah 2: "Those outside the dispensation cannot have right > > view." In the suttas, there are occasions in which people attain stream- entry on first hearing the Buddha. How did they go from having absolutely no insight and not even conceptual right view (being outside the dispensation) to having very deep levels of insight in an instant? Doesn't there have to be some time for development? Metta, Dan 38174 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Phil, In your post you said, "I can remember feeling that studying suttas and practicing brahma-viharas meditation might someday get me *close* to the other shore, but to take that final step on to dry land, if you will, there was something missing." I am new to this list and have been teaching the Brahma Viharas for over 25 years. The approach that I use may be a little different than what you are used to hearing. And the way I teach it is in agreement with the suttas as you will see below. I teach metta for beginners until they can get to the 4th jhana, then when their mind has become quiet, they will automatically experience compassion and attain the realm of infinite space. Next as they progress deeper into their meditation they will experience sympathetic joy and the realm of infinite consciousness. Again as they go deeper into their meditation they will again experience strong equanimity and the realm of nothingness. (This "does" agree with the suttas, by the way. See in the Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga, Bojjhangasamyutta number 46 - Accompanied by Lovingkindness). As their meditation deepens and their mind experiences the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception the brahma viharas fade away and the meditator uses choiceless awareness as their object of meditation. They begin to go deeper and will experience the cessation of perception and feeling (Nirodha Samapatti). Then when the meditator comes out of Nirodha Samapatti their mind is able to then see and experience directly the links of dependent origination, only then does nibbana arise. This method of attaining nibbana was used often during the time of the Buddha. As it says in the Samyutta Nikaya - the Book of Causation - Niddaansmayutta - "#14 [4] Ascetics and Brahmins" the way to experience nibbana is by seeing through direct knowledge the links of dependent origination. Then this understanding carries one to the direct experience of nibbana. So as you can see the Brahma Viharas can lead one to the experience of nibbana but they don't take the meditator all of the way. The reason that I have chosen to take this method of teaching is that the Satipatthana (or 4 foundations) can be used at the same time while the meditator is practicing the Brahma Viharas and the meditator can have deep insights while they experience the jhanas (this agrees with the explanations given in the Anupada Sutta - One by One as They Occurred in the Majjhima Nikaya (sutta # 111). Also, it seems to be true that meditators progress faster when they practice the Brahma Viharas. Their insights into the workings of the mind are much more easily recognizable and understood. I sincerely hope that this gives you some hope with your meditation practice. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38175 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hi Larry, op 11-11-2004 17:17 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: >> Intro Vis. 111: >> >> Kamma conditions the last javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala > cittas) >> that arise before the dying-consciousness. Whatever object these > cittas >> experience, that is also the object of the next rebirth- > consciousness. > > L: Does this make these javana cittas kamma vipaka? N: No. Kamma conditions them by way of natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. To be sure, I like to check this type of paccaya with Htoo. Javanacittas are never vipaka, they are active, kusala or akusala cittas. L:Later you say the > javana cittas correspond to the ethical value of the object (kusala > or akusala); what if the object is unpleasant, a corpse for example, > couldn't the javana be kusala or akusala? N: The object itself is not kusala or akusala, but it is either pleasant or unpleasant. This is a special case. If the object is pleasant the last javana-cittas that experience it will be kusala, not akusala citta rooted in attachment. If the object is unpleasant these cittas will be akusala cittas. L:Do these javana cittas > directly affect the next life or is it just the object that points > the way? N: the javanacittas themselves. Actually the kamma that conditions them produces the next rebirth. L:Can these javanas be jhana cittas or lokuttara? N: Jhanacittas yes. If jhana has not declined this conditions rebirth in a rupa brahmaplane or arupabrahma plane. Lokuttara cittas; never! These never condition rebirth, they lead to the end of birth. > L: Whatever it is the object of bhavanga citta in this life is a sign > of the general nature of this life, correct? N: Not clear what you mean. You mean: it influences our life? The object is fitting for the rebirth-consciousness we are born with, and all bhavangacittas have the same object. I think that the type of bhavangacitta influences our life: with two hetus or three hetus and that is with pañña. We are born with certain capacities. If we are born with three hetus jhana or enlightenment can be attained in that life if the proper conditions are developed. L: Welcome back. I hope all is well. N: Thank you, we are so enthusiastic that we signed up for a following trip after one and a half year! It was so good for Lodewijk's health, amazing. Inspite of the tiring bustrips. Nina. 38176 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. Dear Suan, Please, could you translate this? Nina op 11-11-2004 14:31 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; > mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. > Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; > gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. 38177 From: Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hi Nina, Why can't the final javanacitta be a sotaapanna lokuttara citta? By saying the object of bhavanga citta in this life is a sign of this life I didn't mean that this sign influences this life, only that this sign represents this life, just as the kamma, sign of kamma, or sign of destiny which is the object of the final javana gives us an indication of the next life. So, if we want to know what the object of bhavanga is in this life we just have to look at this life. The kammavipaka of this life is the object of bhavanga, in a way, generally speaking. Correct? Larry 38178 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:28pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 47 - Feeling/Vedana (t) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Upekkhå can accompany mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere. We may help others, observe síla or study Dhamma with upekkhå. Feeling is a conditioned reality, we cannot force ourselves to have pleasant feeling while we apply ourselves to kusala. Upekkhå arises with kåmåvacara cittas (cittas of the sense-sphere), rúpåvacara cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas), arúpåvacara cittas (arúpa-jhånacittas) and lokuttara cittas. As regards rúpajhånacittas, only the cittas of the fifth and highest stage of rúpajhåna are accompanied by upekkhå. At that stage there is a higher degree of calm than at the lower stages; the upekkhå which accompanies that type of jhånacitta is very subtle. All the arúpajhånacittas are accompanied by upekkhå. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38179 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:20am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Bhante, Welcome to DSG and thank you for the detailed introduction. I’m sure you can contribute a lot to the discussions. May I ask where you reside? --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > > Dhamma Greetings to everyone, > > I am new to this list and would like to have some definitions given so I > can further understand what is actually being said. I have practiced > meditation for a long time with the Mahasi method and was very > successful > in that practice, but was not satisfied by the end results, mostly > because they don't agree with what the suttas tell us. …. S: I can relate to this. …. <…> > said to put down the Visuddhi Magga and other commentaries and just go > to > the suttas for my information. The reason he told me to do this is the > information given in the Visuddhi Magga doesn't agree 100% with the > teachings in the suttas. When I did that the understanding of the suttas > became very clear to me. Why? Because I was not clouded by what the > commentaries said. … S: I believe that there is complete consistency, but like you, perhaps, when I first studied the Visuddhimagga, especially as a Mahasi student with his yellow book on the stages of insight at hand to be followed, the wonderful text was completely misunderstood. Our attachment for results means that we’re likely to read any text in the wrong way, coloured by ignorance, attachment and wrong view in my case. Thank you for your discussion of terms. I’m leaving it for now because I’m already in deep water discussing the meaning of ‘insight’ with Dan. Please join in or help us anytime. ….. > Because I came from a background of meditation practice I always refer > When I was practicing meditation in Burma, one of my teachers who was an > abhidhamma scholar (by the name of Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa) told me > that > when he went to the Mahasi Meditation center, the first thing his > teacher > told him was to put away all that he had learned about abhidhamma and > just do the practice of meditation. He told me that this was a very hard > thing to do for him. He had spent years memorizing books about > abhidhamma … S: I’d liked your story very much. As I see it, the practice is not a matter of going to a meditation centre or of memorizing books about abhidhamma. …. >Please let me give a definition that may be useful "Sati" > means the 'direct observation of watching the movements of mind', By > this > I mean seeing directly with a calm mind "HOW" mind changes from one > object to another. …. S: I can see there will be plenty of scope for discussion here…..I look forward to your participation. Metta and welcome again, Sarah ======= 38180 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" Hi TG & DaveK (& Nina), Dave, I'd also like to give you a belated welcome to the list and to thank you for introducing yourself while we were away. [For Nina's benefit, I'd like to just mention that I found out from #37643 that Dave has been reading one of your books and wished to have clarification on the difficult points about control over the body and mind. I also found out that Dave comes from WindsorCT, USA.] TG, we don't always agree, but here I thought you made some very good comments, especially the last one: --- TGrand458@a... wrote: <...> > The point is, all of these things arise due to conditions. The only > reason > that "you" can do them, is because the conditional circumstances are > currently > supporting those abilities. If the conditions will allow it, an effort > can be > made. A human is on this planet because the conditions arose for that. > Our > bodies are sustained by conditions and our thoughts, ideas, plans, etc., > are > as well. An effort can be made to work within those conditions. But > the > belief in "control" is ultimately the belief in a "self" that is outside > of > conditions. > > TG ..... Dave, pls also look in Useful Posts and scroll down to 'Anatta & Control'. You'll find that the difficulty you find with the descriptions of namas and rupas is a common one. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I won't say more as KenH and TG have already given you helpful answers. I'd be glad if you would look at the posts or ask further questions. You might even like to raise your initial one again for Nina to see. Metta, Sarah ======= 38181 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:39am Subject: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: ... >> In future, please be careful not to accuse Acariya Buddhaghosa of > committing the crime he never did. Dear Suan Lu Zaw Creating Theravada is not a crime, is my opinion. And is your opinion that only natural science is real science, that all other, like the books of Kalupahana (on Nagarjuna for example) is not science? Joop 38182 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan, I'll look at the short ones first- --- "Dan D." wrote: > Sarah, some of the most selfless, "detached from self" people in the > world know nothing about the Buddha or his teachings -- they have no > conception of "anatta" per se, but they have such a strong sense of > detachment from self that I can't help but think their understanding > of the characteristic of anatta is deeper than many Buddhists who > could talk circles around them. .... S: Of course I know just what you're saying. I think there's a big difference between selflessness or unselfishness as we might see in a Mother Theresa and detachment from the idea of self or understanding of anatta. In the first case of the 'good' person who has never heard the Buddha's teachings, there is no wearing away of the wrong view of self at all, no matter how much good is done. Now it may be that like the child playing with sandcastles discussed before, that there isn't much idea of self appearing in a day at all. However, the latent tendency (anusaya) is there and unless its characteristic is known, it can never be seen for what it is. All realities, namas and rupas have to be known and undestood. Those reborn in the arupa brahma planes as a result of very high kusala indeed, experience no dosa at all and no attachment to sense experiences, but it's impossible for them to develop the stages of insight to become a sotapanna, because rupas cannot be experienced or known for a start. All the anusaya are still there, dormant, waiting for opportunities to arise again when they have an opportunity. So the not so 'good' worldling who hears the Buddha's teachings and who experiences plenty of wrong view and attachment to sense pleasures has the opportunity to develop awareness and to understand these conditioned realities for what they are when they are apparent at the present moment. So we see that it is wrong view that has to be eradicated first and all dhammas, including great kusala, have to be understood with detachment for what they are - merely conditioned namas and rupas that don't belong to any self. Metta, Sarah ======= 38183 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:59am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings to everyone, > > I am new to this list and would like to have some definitions given so I > can further understand what is actually being said. I have practiced > meditation for a long time with the Mahasi method and was very successful > in that practice, but was not satisfied by the end results, mostly > because they don't agree with what the suttas tell us. Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, welcome to DSG! I normally don't approve of monks participating in these types of discussion boards with laypeople, but I think that in your case an exception should be made to my mindset! I hope that you will post, and post often. ;-) Yours is a voice of reason and experience in this turbulent discussion board. I 100% agree with everything you have to say. I believe that there are some members of DSG who have a distorted view of the dhamma because of the commentaries and the additional writing of Buddhaghosa. What he presents often doesn't agree with the content or spirit of the suttas. (I was told off-list by Jon that I wasn't allowed to say this so I haven't been participating in this group for a very long time. But now others are beginning to speak up so I feel I have the right also. ;-) Thank you also for pointing out that the recognition of nama/rupa in conditioned reality is a superficial insight at best. True!! One needs to have insight into Dependent Origination, as the Buddha taught. I believe that the emphasis should be on understanding the feeling (phassa) which arises from contact, not simply understanding the instruments of the contact. I also agree with your definition of anatta. Anatta does mean impersonal (or uncontrollable) not, as many in this group believe, `doesn't exist'. Anyway, thank you for giving voice to many of the issues which I have been arguing in this group for a long time. As a layman I don't think I am taken very seriously, usually; hopefully, the members will take what you have to say to heart. Metta, James 38184 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, the other short one for now- good questions: --- "Dan D." wrote: > If there is conceptual understanding about, say, namarupapariccheda > with no direct understanding on which to base it, how is that > anything other than speculation? .... S: It may well be pure speculation of little or no benefit at all. We can question our motives for wishing to find out about higher stages of insight or enlightenment at all. However, when there is firmer and firmer direct understanding of namas and rupas appearing at this moment, I think there is more and more confidence in what we read in the texts as being true, even aspects not directly understood in anyway. As to when it is wholesome(kusala) right conceptual or direct understanding and when it is unwholesome (akusala)speculation, regardless of whether the facts are right or wrong, only panna can tell by being aware of the realities whilst thinking or speculating. Lobha is real, thinking is real, ditthi is real, metta is real etc. We may find someone a reference or respond to a question with metta, even though the subject matter is purely conceptual and not based on direct experience. This doesn't make it wrong as you suggest. It always comes back to the cittas and of course these change all the time. Only panna can know.....;-) ..... > In the suttas, there are occasions in which people attain stream- > entry on first hearing the Buddha. How did they go from having > absolutely no insight and not even conceptual right view (being > outside the dispensation) to having very deep levels of insight in an > instant? Doesn't there have to be some time for development? .... S: It depends. Citta processes are very fast and those like Sariputta who had listened to countless previous Buddhas and had performed deeds of such merit that he was born in the Buddha's lifetime and place etc, was able to penetrate the truths and develop insights as he first listened to become a sotapanna. (Btw, I wouldn't say there had been no conceptual right view of any kind of course, but the key ingredients were missing). But how many Sariputtas were there and how many listeners who didn't attain even to the first insight when they first heard the Buddha? And who are we today to think we may hear (or not even hear) a few words from the teachings and reach higher stages of insight? Metta, Sarah ======= 38185 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:15am Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, you wrote, "Also, it seems to be true that meditators progress faster when they practice the Brahma Viharas. Their insights into the workings of the mind are much more easily recognizable and understood." I 100% agree with this assessment! I have been a meditator for several years and began with the method of vipassana as taught by S.N. Goenka. I took that method as far as I could before realizing that I didn't have a foundation of calm to progress farther with the practice. From experimentation, and listening to my heart, about one year ago I began to practice the Brahma Viharas in order to attain the jhanas. I have found this practice to be much more successful than all the years of my previous practice!! If any question arise during my practice, may I contact you on or off-list with my questions? It is impossible to find a meditation monk where I am currently living (Egypt). Thank you for your consideration. Yours in the Dhamma, James 38186 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:19am Subject: India - Appropos of nothing Hello all, I was sharing a room during the trip, and, one evening, in a particular Hotel in Bhairawa - we were each sitting on our beds chatting just prior to turning the lights out. Suddenly, with no seeming cause, the large heavy wooden eight foot long bedhead that stretched across the top of the two single beds and their associated bedside tables, slipped gracefully down the wall at an angle on one side. Not wishing to call a service person in at such a late hour, my roomie and I propped the bed head back and it balanced precariously on a loose screw. The next morning it had slipped down the wall again. Housekeeping was duly notified. During the day we went off on our excursion and joined in Dhamma discussions, the recalcitrant bedhead forgotten. Upon our return, the bedhead appeared to have been repaired. That evening, the Dhobi-wallah was returning our Laundry and he and I were counting the pieces and inspecting the quality of the work done on each piece of lingerie (not my decision, but if I wished to Retain his Respect, it was evident that I had to Perform My Role. I continue to be amazed at how many articles like perfectly clean nightdresses which only need refreshing and rinsing, came back with new and impressive stains never seen before. I learned it was best to be slightly blind to these imperfections - otherwise one would find oneself involved in a Circular Conversation.) As we were finalising the Laundry Inspection to the satisfaction of the Dhobi-wallah, the bedhead fell completely off the wall with a clatter and thump. The Dhobi-wallah looked at me, and I looked back at him, and he said "Oh Madam - the top of the bed has just fallen off". I nodded slowly looking at the offending furniture, and said "Hmm..Hmmmm ... yes, it did that last night as well". He nodded slowly looking at the same thing and said wisely "Ohhhh .... " Clearly 'Not His Job'. Attitudes are infectious. Then we finished counting/inspecting the Laundry, settled the account and tip, and he departed "May I wish you a good evening Madam" he said with a smile and a slight bow - "And you also" I said with a Wei and a matching smile. The bedhead said nothing. My roomie, being barely 5 foot nothing, looked rather horrified when I suggested we lift the bedhead completely off the bed and lie it along one wall, rather than propping it up and risking decapitation during the night. So - I called one of the american ladies from the next room for assistance - mission accomplished. For all I know the bed head is still lying there along the windows, under the curtains, on the second floor of that hotel in India. It is possible that many guests have had Circular Conversations with Housekeeping about how it got there, and what should be done about it. They'll learn. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38187 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) Dear Suan (& Joop), I appreciated your discussions with DN while we were away and especially the quotes you provided on phassa (contact). you may like to repost any of the discussion for Nina to see sometime. Thank you for these contributions. As you know, I'm also not a fan of Prof Kalupahana's writings -- at least of the extracts that have been quoted here, which may be unfair on my part -- and I also share your great respect and feeling of indebtedness to Buddhaghosa and the commentaries. However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-requisites. Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria. I think we've all come across (directly or in writings) examples of scientists and Pali experts with little or no understanding or appreciation of the commentaries and we've all come across friends with no scientific knowledge and little Pali expertise who've helped us appreciate the gems to be found in these sources. Of course, I appreciate your expertise in both areas, Suan. Btw, what did you think of the posts on Science which Sukin and Andrew T wrote recently (37364 and 37472)? I thought they were very helpful. I'd also be glad if you would look over and comment on others in Useful Posts under 'Science' if you have time. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Thank you again for all your useful references and support of the texts found and so carefully preserved in the Theravada tradition. Metta, Sarah p.s Joop, thank you for your honest and interesting reply to my questions to you on traditions. I appreciate your efforts for harmony amongst the various groups in Holland and elsewhere. I used to visit a Tibetan monastery in England years ago and have very interesting discussions on the Abhidhamma with the visiting lamas. With many Theravada groups, especially some vipassana meditators, I was unable to have much discussion at all! Sometimes those with no label on their backs prove to be the most open-minded to hearing about present moment realities;-). ====================== 38188 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:50am Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path"// James Hello James, all, You may be interested in Bhante Vimalaramsi's website and discussion list. There are many resources for the meditator there. http://www.dhammasukha.org/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, > > Venerable Sir, you wrote, "Also, it seems to be true that meditators > progress faster when they practice the Brahma Viharas. Their > insights into the workings of the mind are much more easily > recognizable and understood." > > I 100% agree with this assessment! I have been a meditator for > several years and began with the method of vipassana as taught by > S.N. Goenka. I took that method as far as I could before realizing > that I didn't have a foundation of calm to progress farther with the > practice. From experimentation, and listening to my heart, about > one year ago I began to practice the Brahma Viharas in order to > attain the jhanas. I have found this practice to be much more > successful than all the years of my previous practice!! If any > question arise during my practice, may I contact you on or off- list > with my questions? It is impossible to find a meditation monk where > I am currently living (Egypt). Thank you for your consideration. > > Yours in the Dhamma, > James 38189 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Larry, and all > Here are a couple of ideas for your consideration. > > In order to penetrate ignorance and directly see the anatta (not > self) characteristic of an object it is necessary to see either the > relational nature or the non-relational nature of the object. Rather than penetrating ignorance, I wonder if the answer to anatta doesn't lie in penetrating dhammas in a way that leads to detachment. Maybe when we get deeper into understanding the process (if that's the right word) of detachment, an understanding of anatta will be a result? When through whatever means we find helpful we come to be able to say re the khandas "this does not belong to me, this I am not, this is not my self", when we have deepened our sense of detachment from the khandas, anatta will lie revealed? You were asking the other day about detachment, but the thread just died there. I was a bit surprised by that. I think detachment is a topic that can be discussed/analyzed/understood intellectually in a much more fruitful way than anatta. Whatever it is that we find useful for becoming more detached, whether it is in meditation, in the Suttanta, in Abhidhamma, in the commentaries, even in an Elvis Presley song, if that works, it will help us towards understanding the Buddha's supreme teaching of anatta. Thus I don't understand the need to defend Buddhaghosa, for example. If his commentaries help us become detached, they are good Dhamma. If not, the discerning mind will know soon enough. If the mind isn't discerning enough to see if detachment is being fostered through a certain teaching, the word of Buddha Himself whispered in the ear wouldn't do it. Meandering off topic. Sorry I didn't address your theory directly. It seems a bit too complex to me, that's all I can say. (I seem to be unwilling to try to wrap my mind around tough paragraphs most of the time!) Metta, Phil 38190 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Thank you sincerely for your feedback. > In your post you said, "I can remember feeling that studying suttas and > practicing > brahma-viharas meditation might someday get me *close* to the other > shore, but to take that final step on to dry land, if you will, there was > something missing." > > I am new to this list and have been teaching the Brahma Viharas for over > 25 years. The approach that I use may be a little different than what you > are used to hearing. And the way I teach it is in agreement with the > suttas as you will see below. I am not seeking jhanas at this time, though I will eagerly do so if conditions arise that lead me in that direction. What is your teaching on Brahma Viharas as they arise in daily life? I am appreciating the Abhidhamma approach as taught by K Sujin. I'm seeing loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity arise (or not arise) in daily life, sometimes in close proximity to unwholesome states of mind. (For example, I find myself irritated with one person one moment, and moments later, a more friendly feeling arises.) This isn't something that I seek to control, but I hope that by better understanding defilements, I will condition a more free arising of Brahma-Viharas as those defilements as other obstacles to Brahma-Viharas are ever so gradually eradicated. This is still my highest goal as a human being - to become more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions. I used to practice metta meditation (very basic, using the metta sutta) but I became uncomfortable with the notion of projecting loving-kindness. It stopped making sense to me. How can one project something that arises one moment and is gone the next? How can one generate loving-kindness? It is there, or it isn't, and to generate it feels artificial and a bit desperate to me. It came to feel like a cheapening of loving-kindness. But I am a beginner, and I am sure my understanding will take many unexpected twists and turns in this and many lifetimes to come. Thank you again. Metta, Phil p.s now when I type metta, I do feel loving-kindness present. It is not always there when I type the word. Usually there is only restlessness. There can be not metta when there is restlessness. 38191 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan and Sarah, I've wanted to jump into this thread and almost did with Dan's last reply to Mike. But other things started taking my time away. Hope you don't mind me butting in here. I'll respond to one question you asked Sarah, Dan, and perhaps comment on other points made elsewhere. > Dan: In the suttas, there are occasions in which people attain stream- > entry on first hearing the Buddha. How did they go from having > absolutely no insight and not even conceptual right view (being > outside the dispensation) to having very deep levels of insight in an > instant? Doesn't there have to be some time for development? As Sarah and Phil have said, I think the major influence is the accumulated wisdom from countless past lives. Many of these were well developed also in the Jhanas. The implication of this as I see is that those that could readily reach high levels of jhana, had extremely developed wisdom with regard to recognizing akusala, particularly Lobha. Also the increased ability to detect more and more subtle lobha implied that the sati was very keen and dhammas could be seen to the most subtle level. So that were they to consider `impermanence' their understanding of this would be quite close to `anicca' as taught by the Buddha. And being told about conditionality, they could realize immediately and profoundly, the meaning of "Dhamma". However, no matter how much panna is developed with regard to the matter of jhana, I don't think that this would bend towards considering `anatta' without being told about it. For someone to develop kusala on the level of samatha, becoming increasingly alert to subtle akusala, does not mean that he will be in a better position to understand anatta. As you know many wrong views comes as a consequence of meditation practices. The object of one being the eradication of lobha (and hence dosa) is quite different from the object of the other who sees the danger of moha and wrong view. For all, even the Bodhisatta, it is quite natural to react to lobha and dosa and finding a solution in ways that would deal only with this. The question of whether ignorance is to be dealt with does not come to mind. But because of the accumulated parami, the Bodhisatta did finally come to see the role of ignorance (in D.O.?). For the rest of us, we need to be told about all this. And if we see a sense in it, it is because we were convinced about all this earlier in past lives, perhaps informed by much patipatti. It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any insight into anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. As indicated above, understanding other aspects of the mind is not beyond most ordinary worldlings and surely we may learn many things from just observing our own mind in reaction. But this wouldn't be satipatthana as in the understanding that whatever appears through the six doorways, are conditioned namas and rupas. You could ask your "selfless friends" who have not heard the Buddha's teachings, what they thought about anatta. I am quite certain that they would not readily accept it. And this would indicate that indeed their experiences were *not* satipatthana. With `beings' as object, your friends may have conditions for metta, karuna, mudita and so on much more than any of us. But this may not reflect their understanding on the conditioned nature of mind and matter and wrong view does not have to lead to akusala immediately. So elsewhere when you said that `sammaditthi arises with jhana', I don't think this is right. Jhana practice does require deep wisdom, but this wisdom is of quite a different kind to vipassana panna. The former may support the latter, but does not lead to it. I remember when Nina wrote about the Four Discriminative wisdom, I asked her if there was any corresponding level on the putthujana side. I felt that I could relate to some of what was being explained. She said that it only applied to ariyans and very special ones at that. So Dan I think what you might think to be `insight' may be just thinking, perhaps with some level of understanding. But to think it more than just this, may be in fact a result of a degree of speculation. On the other hand, if someone has pariyatti understanding but does not mistake this for any insight, I think then that he may not be speculating at all. Had other things in mind, but don't remember what. Maybe later. ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: I saw that Sarah has responded, but will send this off anyway. 38192 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: >have been teaching the Brahma Viharas for over > 25 years. The approach that I use may be a little different than what you > are used to hearing. And the way I teach it is in agreement with the > suttas as you will see below. I teach metta for beginners until they can > get to the 4th jhana, then when their mind has become quiet, they will > automatically experience compassion and attain the realm of infinite > space. Next as they progress deeper into their meditation they will > experience sympathetic joy and the realm of infinite consciousness. Bhante, I did many most you wrote, you must have an open mind. Only what you wrote about using the Brhama Viharas in meditation surprised me a little bit. I got the idea developping metta, karuna and mudita for myself and other living beings in only a means in your system. Getting jhanas and attaing nibbana are the only goals. Is that correct ? I combine insight meditation (a la Mahasi) with concentration- meditation, for example metta-meditation. And for me developing metta and karuna for other living beings is good against the greed and hate I feel many times in myself. Getting enlightened is not my goal, it is a possible result. You speak about agreement with the suttas. In my meditation-group (in the Netherlands) the Maha Satipatthana Sutta is playing a central role. In this Sutta the Buddha is not taling about jhanic meditation; is that correct? The (three first) Brahma Viharas are the few social elements is the for the rest rather solipsistic Theravada; Do you recognize that social dimension in the way you practise meditation ? With metta Joop 38193 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Dan and Sarah > Sarah, some of the most selfless, "detached from self" people in the world know nothing about the Buddha or his teachings -- they have no conception of "anatta" per se, but they have such a strong sense of detachment from self that I can't help but think their understanding of the characteristic of anatta is deeper than many Buddhists who could talk circles around them. k: You are not wrong to say that they may unconscoiusnessly known what is the meaning of selfless acts. That is how why some disciples of other traditions or people like Ven Sariputta could understand Buddha teachings very fast. Such unknown accumulations of selflessness is also panna just that they do not known it is panna at all. To me, their panna is not penetrative enough to break into the maggacitta realm or in other words, their panna cannot see the underlying tendencies. Just like Buddha when he was still a Bodhisattvas, in his many lives he may not come across the dhamma but he will act selflessly because of panna that have accumulated. Just like Ven Mahakassapa who even before seeing Buddha already intuitively behave like a monk. So when panna or the knowledge of anatta is taught to them, they have this exclamation of Eureka!. That is why it is said without a Buddha dispensation there will be salvation. Ken O 38194 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:37am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hello Nina and Larry, Did you enjoy your stay in Pelling, Nina? I was envious of you and Lodewijk staying behind in Sikkim, it was lovely there. So fresh and cool compared to where I am now in the beginning of a hot tropical summer. I don't have aircon. just ceiling fans. I have just read the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, where the Buddha is talking to Pukkusati. According to notes on this Sutta, Pukkusati had already achieved 4th jhana and had a strong attachment to it. It says that if he attains the base of infinite space and should pass away while still attached to it, he would be reborn in the plane of infinite space and would live there for the full lifespan of 20,000 aeons specified for that plane. It goes on to point out the danger of the immaterial jhanas, apparently by the phrase "this would be conditioned". Meaning ' even though the lifespan there is 20,000 aeons, that is conditioned, fashioned, built up. It is thus impermanent, unstable, not lasting, transient. It is subject to perishing, breaking up and dissolution; it is involved with birth, aging and death, grounded upon suffering. It is not a shelter, a place of safety, a refuge. Having passed away there as a worlding, one can still be reborn in the four states of deprivation'. Earlier in the notes, it says that Pukkusati had already purified the preliminary practice of the path ....what does this mean?........and was able to attain the 4th jhana thro mindfulness of breathing. Then the Buddha began to talk on insight meditation, expounding the ultimate voidness that is the foundation for arahantship. "That which you perceive as a person consists of 6 elements. Ultimately ther is no person here. 'Person' is a mere concept". --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 11-11-2004 17:17 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > .......snip...... > L:Do these javana cittas > > directly affect the next life or is it just the object that points > > the way? > N: the javanacittas themselves. Actually the kamma that conditions them > produces the next rebirth. > L:Can these javanas be jhana cittas or lokuttara? > N: Jhanacittas yes. If jhana has not declined this conditions rebirth in a > rupa brahmaplane or arupabrahma plane. .....Snip....... > L: Welcome back. I hope all is well. > N: Thank you, we are so enthusiastic that we signed up for a following trip > after one and a half year! It was so good for Lodewijk's health, amazing. > Inspite of the tiring bustrips. > Nina. Azita: I never thought of the jhanas as being 'dangerous', but can see in what sense they might be. If no insight into the ultimate truth of realities, one may take jhana for self and spend literally aeons and aeons in planes where no dhamma is able to be heard; no ears for listening!!!!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38195 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > > > k: You are not wrong to say that they may unconscoiusnessly known > what is the meaning of selfless acts. That is how why some disciples > of other traditions or people like Ven Sariputta could understand > Buddha teachings very fast. Such unknown accumulations of > selflessness is also panna just that they do not known it is panna at > all. To me, their panna is not penetrative enough to break into the > maggacitta realm or in other words, their panna cannot see the > underlying tendencies. Just like Buddha when he was still a > Bodhisattvas, in his many lives he may not come across the dhamma but > he will act selflessly because of panna that have accumulated. Just > like Ven Mahakassapa who even before seeing Buddha already > intuitively behave like a monk. So when panna or the knowledge of > anatta is taught to them, they have this exclamation of Eureka!. >=========== DearKen Your theory is quite popular I think. It is however at odds with the Theravada account. For example Mahakassapa: He had many encounters with Buddha sasanas of the past. In the time of padumuttara Buddha he was named vedeha and devoted to the Buddha. He aspired to be like the monk Nisabha (who at that tine was noted for sustere living). He continued to develop parami. Later, in the time of Vipassin Buddha he was again devoted to that buddha. Later as a disciple of Kassapa Buddha he gave costly robes and flowers to the cetiya. There are other accounts of when he paid respect to Paccekka Buddhas. He accumulated wisdom by listening to these Buddhas. The buddha of this era also had many contacts with past Buddhas. Robertk 38196 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:05am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Bhante and Sarah - In a message dated 11/12/04 3:22:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I can see there will be plenty of scope for discussion here…..I look > forward to your participation. > ====================== Sarah, I am watching with interest the conversation between Ven Vimalaramsi and you. I greatly look forward to a continuation, as I hope to learn much from it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38197 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, James (and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/12/04 4:01:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I also agree with your definition of anatta. Anatta does mean > impersonal (or uncontrollable) not, as many in this group > believe, `doesn't exist'. > ======================= I think that what you say here is slightly misleading. There *are* a number of folks here, including me, who believe that conventional existents such as trees, houses, and people have, indeed, only conventional existence, which means, not that such percepts are without basis, but that they are mental constructs, and have no existence independent of such construction (and of the phenomena that are their basis). But the term 'anatta' doesn't literally or directly apply to them to them, as I see it. It applies only derivatively, and "in a manner of speaking" - that is, again, conventionally. The phenomena to which 'anatta' directly applies are the interrelated physical and mental dhammas that are the basis for conventional existents, that underly them - phenomena directly apprehended through the six sense doors, unmediated by conceptual construction. It is these that, while not being nihilistically nonexistent, do lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly arise, but are fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal flow. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38198 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] India - Appropos of nothing Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/12/04 4:22:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > So - I called one of the american ladies from the next room for > assistance - mission accomplished. For all I know the bed head is > still lying there along the windows, under the curtains, on the > second floor of that hotel in India. It is possible that many > guests have had Circular Conversations with Housekeeping about how > it got there, and what should be done about it. > > They'll learn. > ========================= From the sound of things, it seem that the "they" who will learn are the guests, and not the staff! ;-)) Your descriptions, BTW, are wonderful - and hilarious! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38199 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. (Was Re: Zen and Tibetan (..) Hi, Sarah (and Suan and Joop) - In a message dated 11/12/04 4:41:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > As you know, I'm also not a fan of Prof Kalupahana's writings -- at least > of the extracts that have been quoted here, which may be unfair on my part > -- and I also share your great respect and feeling of indebtedness to > Buddhaghosa and the commentaries. > > However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit > and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing > an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in > science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-requisites. > Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria. > > I think we've all come across (directly or in writings) examples of > scientists and Pali experts with little or no understanding or > appreciation of the commentaries and we've all come across friends with no > scientific knowledge and little Pali expertise who've helped us appreciate > the gems to be found in these sources. > > Of course, I appreciate your expertise in both areas, Suan. > ========================== What wonderfully balanced comments, Sarah! Sadhu X 3. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38200 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:35am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Nina Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert K, Mike Nease and all How are you? Here is a quick translation of the four lines from the Preface Verse of A.t.thasaalinii, as Nina requested. As the translation was made as literal as possible, I hope that you can survive its rather raw sounding. Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. From Acariya Buddhaghosa's A.t.thasaalinii Ganthaarambhakathaa. "I will expose the meaning, satisfying the intelligent By presenting the findings of the Great Temple Residents, Which are not contaminated by alien doctrines, Nor incoherent, and by taking whatever should be taken in the Suttam Commentaries as well." The reason I produced the above lines of Buddhaghosa is to show that he did not create any new system. He clearly declared that he reproduced the findings of the Great Temple Residents and whatever available in the Suttam Commentaries. Whoever accused Acariya Buddhaghosa of creating a system of Theravada Buddhism did so without having read and understood the Great Acariya's own humble declaration typical of all Theravada Buddhist masters. The Saasana obligations of the Theravada ascetics are preservation and transmission of the original teachings of the Buddha and the Arahants. Theravada ascetics never set up their own brand of Buddhism the way Nargaajuna and the like did. Theravada ascetics always adopt the roles of humble selfless nameless preservers and transmitters of the Teachings of the Arahants. Theravada means the Teachings of the Arahants. Except Gotama the First Arahant and the Subsequent Arahants, no one else can create Theravada. This is because only Gotama the First Arahant and the Subsequent Arahants can teach the Teachings of the Arahants. The Taming System of Gotama the Buddha (Buddha Saasanaa) and the Teachings of the Arahants, namely, Theravada, are the two expressions that mean one and the same thing and are interchangeable. With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, Please, could you translate this? Nina op 11-11-2004 14:31 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; > > mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. > > Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; > > gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. 38201 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:37am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Howard, Sarah and All, Here is another member like Howard who will be watching the conversation between Bhante Vimalaramsi and Sarah with great interest. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Bhante and Sarah - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 3:22:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > S: I can see there will be plenty of scope for discussion here…..I look > > forward to your participation. > > > ====================== > Sarah, I am watching with interest the conversation between Ven > Vimalaramsi and you. I greatly look forward to a continuation, as I hope to learn > much from it. > > With metta, > Howard 38202 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, My time is running short, so I'll just pop off a few more comments for now... > > If there is conceptual understanding about, say, namarupapariccheda > > with no direct understanding on which to base it, how is that > > anything other than speculation? > .... > S: It may well be pure speculation of little or no benefit at all. Not just "may well be". How can it be anything BUT speculation? > We can question our motives for wishing to find out about higher stages of > insight or enlightenment at all. Huh? Peculiar comment... > However, when there is firmer and firmer direct understanding of namas and > rupas appearing at this moment, I think there is more and more confidence > in what we read in the texts as being true, even aspects not directly > understood in anyway. Hmmm... I'll have to think about how that relates to the question. > As to when it is wholesome(kusala) right conceptual or direct > understanding and when it is unwholesome (akusala)speculation, regardless > of whether the facts are right or wrong, This is a quite a different usage of the terms kusala/akusala than I normally see -- at least I hope it is! only panna can tell by being > aware of the realities whilst thinking or speculating. Lobha is real, > thinking is real, ditthi is real, metta is real etc. We may find someone a > reference or respond to a question with metta, even though the subject > matter is purely conceptual and not based on direct experience. This > doesn't make it wrong as you suggest. It always comes back to the cittas > and of course these change all the time. > > In the suttas, there are occasions in which people attain stream- > > entry on first hearing the Buddha. How did they go from having > > absolutely no insight and not even conceptual right view (being > > outside the dispensation) to having very deep levels of insight in an > > instant? Doesn't there have to be some time for development? > .... > S: It depends. Citta processes are very fast and those like Sariputta who > had listened to countless previous Buddhas and had performed deeds of such > merit that he was born in the Buddha's lifetime and place etc, was able to > penetrate the truths and develop insights as he first listened to become a > sotapanna. (Btw, I wouldn't say there had been no conceptual right view of > any kind of course, but the key ingredients were missing). Not implausible, but I'd have to take it on either gross speculation or blind faith or (more likely) some combination of the two. > But how many Sariputtas were there... Very few. > and how many listeners who didn't attain even to the first insight when they first heard the Buddha? Very many. > And who are we today to think we may hear (or not even hear) a few words > from the teachings and reach higher stages of insight? Huh? Metta, Dan 38203 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Pannatti can serves as an arammana or object and it is one of the sixth sense. It is dhammarammana. Panatti is sensed only by mind. No other sense organs can detect pannatti dhamma. Pannatti is known and sensed only by citta which is nama dhamma. Pannatti is a domain that most people or nearly all people and all beings confuse. Even people who are well-learned in Dhamma still have some confusion on pannatti dhamma. Pannatti is a dhamma. It can be sensed. It can be known. But when dhammas are viewed by ultimate sense, pannatti dhamma is not an ultimate reality. Pannatti never arises. Because it never exists as paramattha dhamma. It never exists as an ultimate reality. As pannatti does not arise as it is not a reality, then it does not fall away. There have been a lot of argument on pannatti dhamma because of inability to penetrate the dhamma pannatti. Pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. Some people say pannatti arise and fall away. They argue that pannatti as arammana does arise and fall away. This is wrong. Pannatti never arises and never falls away as it does not exist in ultimate sense. It is not an ultimate truth. It is not an ultimate reality. They may argue why pannatti as an arammana arises and falls away. This is a wrong concept. What actually arises is citta and not pannatti. What actually falls away is citta and not pannatti. Pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. I do repeat these because it is important. When a citta who takes pannatti arises, it falls away immediately. According to functions of cittas, next arising cittas do their functions. Cittas do arise and falls away while pannatti cannot. Example: When we think 'a tree', there is no tree as an ultimate reality. But a citta arises taking pannatti 'a tree'. As that citta is anicca and impermanent, it falls away. Here, it seems like pannatti arises and falls away which actually is not. Just before that 'idea of a tree' arises, there may be many cittas that took realties as their objects. We may think on 'colour' 'form' 'size' in our mind before a citta that takes pannatti 'a tree' arises. In real terms, pannatti does not arise and does not fall away. Pannatti serves as an object for mind. In this matter of arammana or object condition, pannatti dhamma takes the role of paramattha dhamma by pretending as if it is a paramattha dhamma which actually is not so. That is why pannatti dhamma is not a dhammaayatana. And by the same reason, pannatti is not dhammadhatu. As pannati does not arise and does not fall away, there is no evidence of anicca or dukkha or anatta in pannatti dhamma. This is because pannatti dhamma does not exist as an ultimate reality from the start. There are higher cittas that do take pannatti dhamma as their objects. These cittas are all of rupavacara cittas. Some kamavacara cittas take pannatti dhamma as their objects. Some arupavacara cittas do take pannatti dhamma as their object. But what is sure is that all 8 lokuttara cittas never take pannatti dhamma as their object. The arammana of all lokuttara cittas is only nibbana which is an ultimate reality. All lokuttara cittas take just nibbana as their object. No other object can be the object of lokuttara cittas. Only nibbana can serve as arammana or object of sotapatti magga citta and phala citta, sakadagami magga and phala citta, anagami magga and phala citta, and arahatta magga and phala citta. All rupavacara cittas that is all 5 rupakusala cittas (which are 1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, and 5th jhana), all 5 rupavipaka cittas (which are the resultant cittas of the former 5 cittas), and all 5 rupakiriya cittas (which are 1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana and 5th jhana cittas of arahats) take the pannatti dhamma as their object. Rupavacara cittas never take other object apart from pannatti dhamma as their arammana or object. I do write this becuase there are many who argue that suttas say samma-samadhi is all 8 jhanas that is 4 rupa jhanas and 4 arupa jhanas. I do not say suttas are wrong. Equally I do not say Abhidhamma is wrong. And I do not say suttas and Abhidhamma do not agree. There are those who purely learn Suttas and they devalue Abhidhamma and say Abhidhamma is not Buddha's words and so on. This show inability to penetrate Dhamma. I wouls say strongly that those who are in jhanas that is who are developing jhana cittas of rupavacara kind cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta but they just see the object of rupavacara jhana cittas which is pannatti. No citta can take 2 object at the same moment at the same time. Rupavacara jhana cittas always always take pannatti dhamma as their object. So they cannot take nibbana as their object. In citta portion, I have discussed this matter. But as it is very important and crucial, I repeat it here again. If in jhanas, the practitioner has to emerge from jhana and has to do paccavakkhana or scrutinization or contemplation on dhammas he experienced. At that time he is not in jhanas and not at pannatti dhamma. But as he is still in the vicinity of jhana, there is no hindrances at all and he is not absorbed at that time and mind is free and not fixed. At that time all cittas are kusala cittas. But they are not rupavacara rupakusala cittas or arupavacara arupakusala cittas which are jhanas. So their kusala cittas are kamavacara mahakusala cittas. These nana sampayutta cittas do lead to nibbana through manodvaravajjana, parikamma, upcara, anuloma, gotrabhu and then ascend up to magga citta. If the practitioner is still in rupa jhanas then he is seeing rupa jhana object which is pannatti dhamma. Panatta dhamma is very important and without it we cannot communicate and we cannot understand Dhamma and we will suffer more and more if there is no pannatta dhamma. In my old post I said pannatta dhamma is like vehicle which carries understanding. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38204 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sukin, Just some quick comments... > It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any insight into > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but is strongly attached to Self? Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding words? There is a striking distinction between them. As indicated above, > conditioned namas and rupas. You could ask your "selfless friends" who > have not heard the Buddha's teachings, what they thought about anatta. > I am quite certain that they would not readily accept it. And this would > indicate that indeed their experiences were *not* satipatthana. It would? Are you sure? It seems that you are confusing concept and reality here. Understanding reality is quite different from understanding what someone is referring to when they describe reality. > So elsewhere when you said that `sammaditthi arises with jhana', I > don't think this is right. Jhana practice does require deep wisdom, but > this wisdom is of quite a different kind to vipassana panna. The former > may support the latter, but does not lead to it. I believe it is just standard Theravada dogma that sammaditthi arises with jhana. If I'm wrong about this, that's fine. Metta, Dan 38205 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi RobK, Dan and Sarah RobK, yes you are right, I forgetten that selfless acts by other traditions can be a subtle clinging to self that wish to help others. Just like when we help other by donating food, materials etc, there could be a subtle clinging of a self wishing to help. Thanks for point that. My last email is wrong. Please ignore it. Dan - still the same point, only people who listen to dhamma can be liberated. Whether some people who can listen to a few words then be enlighted, that must be past accumulations, learn from previous encounter with Buddha dhamma. These accumulations enable them to see through the conceptual world, straight to the paramathas just like Ven Sariputta. Even those ascetics who could do that also must have accumulations from past encounters with the Buddha Dhammas. Whereas for me, hmmm, ... dont know how many aeons will pass :) who knows when we will meet again, internet chat again :) and discuss this again in aeons to come in the future. But still this is worth living for, the fortunate live of being able to learn Dhamma :). till then, have a little cup of coffee and enjoy the sun and the sea. As I said to someone before, learning dhamma is full of pitfalls but that what make it interesting :) Cheers! Ken O 38206 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Ken, I think that those of other traditions can perform (conventionally) selfless acts. But because only a Buddha can teach anatta they cannot develop penetrative insight into the four noble truths and paticcasamuppada. I think they can develop most types of right view too- related to kamma . But they can't develop vipassana. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobK, Dan and Sarah > > RobK, yes you are right, I forgetten that selfless acts by other > traditions can be a subtle clinging to self that wish to help others. > Just like when we help other by donating food, materials etc, there > could be a subtle clinging of a self wishing to help. Thanks for > point that. My last email is wrong. Please ignore it. > > Dan - still the same point, only people who listen to dhamma can be > 38207 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi RobK and (Dan) That is what I told Dan in an earlier mail where other traditions do practise a limited right view because of not knowing Anatta which only can be taught by the Buddha dhamma. They could know impermanence and dukkha which are visible but they would not know about Anatta which is the basic for panna, or for cessation of birth. Ken O 38208 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Text Vis. 112. When, through the influence of the profitable of the fine-material sphere (9)-(13) and the immaterial sphere (14)-(17), beings are reborn [respectively] in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, then the nine kinds of fine-material (57)-(61) and immaterial (62)-(65) resultant occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object only the sign of kamma that has appeared at the time of dying.[43] ------------------------ Note 43. ' "The sign of kamma" here is only the kamma's own object consisting of an earth kasina, etc.' (Pm.478). N: When ruupajhaana or aruupajhaana has been developed and the jhaana has not declined, kamma conditions the last javana-cittas which have as object the meditation subject of ruupa-jhaana or aruupa-jhaana, and it will produce rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or aruupa-brahma-planes, depending on the stage of jhaana which has been attained. Vis. text: 113: When, through the influence of the unprofitable (22)-(33), they are reborn in a state of loss, then the one kind of unprofitable resultant mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (56) occurs as rebirth-linking; and it does so making its object whichever among the kamma, sign of kamma, and sign of destiny has appeared at the time of dying. N: There is only one type of akusala vipaakacitta that performs the function of rebirth, bhavanga and dying and this is the santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta. This type has many degrees and arises in the unhappy planes of existence: the animal world, the ghost world, the demon world and the hell planes. Vis. text: This firstly is how the occurrence of nineteen kinds of resultant consciousness should be understood as rebirth-linking. N: these types are: 1 akusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma) 1 kusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of weak kaamaavacara kusala kamma) 8 mahaa-vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of kaamaavacara kusala kammas) 5 ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of ruupa-jhaanacittas) 4 aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of aruupa-jhaanacittas) Thus, nineteen types of citta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga (life-continuum) and dying. ***** Nina. 38209 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Venerable Bhante, welcome to the list, thank you for writing. You give us food for thought. I shall just touch on a few points. op 11-11-2004 17:09 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Enough of this, I see the word "insight" used very often and wonder what > meaning it has for you. "Insight" into what? I know the answer that you > will give and that is "insight" into the true nature of all existence. > But what does that really mean according to the suttas? To me the > "insight" that arises from truly seeing and understanding the impersonal > process of dependent origination, is the "insight" we should be looking > at. Not some surface "insight" into nama/rupa alone. N: Insight or understanding according to the suttas: the Buddha speaks about all realities we can experience one at a time through the six doors. He speaks about seeing, hearing, attachment, anger. These dhammas are so daily, and we can only thoroughly penetrate their true characteristics by mindfulness when they occur at this moment. So, we should ask ourselves: what does pañña understand at this moment? Does it understand what seeing is, what hearing is? It is after seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions that defilements arise on account of what we experience. We should realize all such moments as conditioned dhammas. I share your concern as to book knowledge. When people see Abhidhamma as mere theory the study will not be beneficial, it can even be dangerous. One gets the wrong grasp of the snake and it bites. Abhidhamma is about life, it is not theory. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin who helped me to see this 37 years ago. We truly have to consider what we read and make it relevant to our life. I am so glad we make on this list a study of the Visuddhimagga, and with each paragraph I consider its contents in relation to my life. It is a kind of meditation. It makes me always very happy to read a commentary to a sutta, and it helps me to come closer to the Buddha's words. I like to know how to apply his exhortation: to perform kusala, avoid evil and purify the mind. At the same time I also realize that what is beneficial to one person may not be so to another person. We are born with different accumulated tendencies. You give us many points for reflection, thank you. I appreciate it that you took the time to write to us. With respect, Nina. 38210 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: Red hat revisited ( was Re: [dsg] Re: There is a Practice) Hello Phil, op 11-11-2004 23:43 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Phil: (snip, snip)...when I saw a man's red cap, and I had insight into how quickly the mind > leaps ahead to > process the visual object and colour and make it into a "cap." And I sensed > at that > moment that I might never be able to answer "yes" to "is there seeing now?" > but at least > I had gained a kind of clear insight into how fast the mind leaps to form > concepts. > So even being able to answser "no" to that question is liberating, I think. > We have gained > insight into how fast processes are, how there is no self that can control > them. N: That moment was conditioned by previous listening, hearing, study, considering, thus it is nama, not Phil. Before we realize it we take experiences for self. We know that there were also moments of seeing, because if you were blind you would not know about the red cap. Thus, we are sure that there is seeing, but no awareness and understanding of its characteristic. But all this is a memory now, and as Kh. Sujin says: what about this moment? We heard that all the time as a reminder in the situation. And also: if we try to know what seeing is, it hinders sati. When it arises, it does so unexpectantly. We know that there must be seeing also now, not only when there was a man with a red cap. It is amazing that sañña from early childhood on is accumulated, so that we know at once: this is a red cap, this is the beach, etc. Khun Unnop reminded me: we are keeping on talking and asking questions about what does not appear and when it appears we are not aware. Nina. 38211 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: Oh Madam! -- kickbacks as "overtime pay" Dear Christine, I bet if you had offered to pay the concierge a little extra to show up early, he would have promptly put on the cashier's hat for you. Metta, Dan 38212 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:51pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Bhante) - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 4:01:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > I also agree with your definition of anatta. Anatta does mean > > impersonal (or uncontrollable) not, as many in this group > > believe, `doesn't exist'. > > > ======================= > I think that what you say here is slightly misleading. There *are* a > number of folks here, including me, who believe that conventional existents > such as trees, houses, and people have, indeed, only conventional existence, > which means, not that such percepts are without basis, but that they are mental > constructs, and have no existence independent of such construction (and of the > phenomena that are their basis). But the term 'anatta' doesn't literally or > directly apply to them to them, as I see it. It applies only derivatively, and > "in a manner of speaking" - that is, again, conventionally. The phenomena to > which 'anatta' directly applies are the interrelated physical and mental dhammas > that are the basis for conventional existents, that underly them - phenomena > directly apprehended through the six sense doors, unmediated by conceptual > construction. It is these that, while not being nihilistically nonexistent, do > lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly arise, but are > fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal > flow. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard (Rob M., at the end), As close as I can figure, you agree with what I stated. You wrote, "It is these that, while not being nihilistically nonexistent, do lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly arise, but are fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal flow." Sometimes I feel as if one needs a PhD to decipher your posts (and, alas, I only have a masters ;-), but I think that you are agreeing with what I wrote. Let's deal with just people since the Buddha didn't talk extensively about philosophical subjects like the existence of trees and houses. The Buddha examined himself and saw that he couldn't find an atta (a self). What he found is that the "human being Gotama" was a composition of form (physical body), feeling, perception, thought, and consciousness. He further found that none of these five aggregates, constantly changing, should be taken for self because then there will be clinging to them and suffering. At no point did he say, "I, The Fully Enlightened One don't exist. Only the Five Aggregates exist. Only Nama/Rupa exists." The Buddha did exist, and so do you and I. We exist as an ever changing process, but we still exist. This is important to understand or the whole teaching of anatta becomes muddled with ontological suppositions. Hope I have made myself a bit clearer. Metta, James Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building inspiration… 38213 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49pm Subject: Re: Red hat revisited ( was Re: [dsg] Re: There is a Practice) Hello Nina, and all Nina: That moment was conditioned by previous listening, hearing, study, considering, thus it is nama, not Phil. Before we realize it we take experiences for self. (snip) Khun Unnop reminded me: we are keeping on talking and asking questions about what does not appear and when it appears we are not aware. Phil: Perhaps in these two points we see that we have to find a middle way between studying and discussing too much and not enough. How often does awareness of the moment arise while I'm typing messages or reading a sutta, or even reflecting on a sutta later? Hardly ever. But there is faith that Dhamma discussion and study will condition right understanding that will see through the clinging that is also conditioned by Dhamma discussion and study. But we have to be careful. If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a choice between liberation from samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea and quiet in the house and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! Metta, Phil 38214 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Joop, The problem with most of the understanding about "concentration" is a tricky one. I will try to clear this up as best as I can. Because I have been practicing meditation for such a long period of time I have had the opportunity to try many different types of meditation intensely. I did practice the Mahasi Method of Satipatthana for 20 years ( and was very successful, according to their standards) , and with that teaching I found an inherent prejudice against one-pointed concentration because "It only leads to jhana, but you can't attain nibbana unless you practice vipassana", I truly believed this statement without checking out the suttas at all. After I became disenchanted with this kind of teaching, I began to read the suttas and found some interesting things. First, the word "vipassana", is only used about 100 times in the suttas and the explanation of jhana is used many thousands of times. I found this to be very interesting. Why would the Buddha talk so much about something that , as I was told repeatedly, would not lead to Nibbana. It didn't make sense to me. As I looked deeper, then had an elder senior monk tell me to let go of the commentaries (like the Visuddhi Magga) and just read the suttas with a beginner's mind. I began to see things that were not so easy to see, when I did use the commentaries. I first began deeply reading about 'Mindfulness of Breathing", which turned into a real eye-opener. I was told repeatedly by top Vipassana teachers that if you practiced Anapanasati the way it taught in sutta #118 of the Majjhima Nikaya that I would only be practicing absorption, which "only" led to psychic powers and that was a real hindrance to vipassana, and if I practiced the Satipatthana method, it would lead me to vipassana and eventually nibbana. To my surprise, when I compared the two suttas side by side I found out that the instructions were word for word, letter for letter, exactly the same! I found this to be an odd thing because I was raised on the vipassana only method. And as I was told vipassana was one thing and concentration was another (as it says in the Visuddhi Magga) and never the two shall meet!. But the instructions were the same, how could this be? So I took a long hard look at what I was taught and the method I was taught and compared it with the instructions given in both the Anapanasati Sutta and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Low and behold, they weren't the same!!!!! So I let go of the Mahasi method of meditation and began to try the sutta method. I found that the instructions in the suttas were much less complicated and when followed they opened up my eyes to deeply see things that I had only surface seen before. Now you must realize I was considered a VERY ADVANCED meditation practitioner, I had seen directly all of the insights that were talked about in Mahasi's book the "Progress of Insight". I saw that many of the insights were still surface and not as deep and penetrating as I was led to believe. One of the main differences was one sentence given in the instructions for the "Mindfulness of Breathing" (which by the way is ignored in the Visuddhi Magga) it says, "He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in, tranquilizing the bodily formation'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation". So I applied this tranquilizing with everything (that is not only while sitting in meditation, but when doing daily activities as well) and soon found a real difference in the way I saw how mind moved and worked. That was a real eye opener! Or as I have come to realize it a real "Oh, Wow" experience. As I began to practice this more and more I saw that I needed to take a couple of weeks and do a self retreat. This became so interesting that my 2 week retreat turned into a 3 month retreat. (Monks can do that sort of thing because this is our job and freedom of being a monk) I saw that there is a true difference between one-pointed absorption meditation (Jhana) and the what I call the "Tranquil Wisdom" (Jhana) meditation. After that retreat I began really studying the suttas and came to see the true interconnectedness of the Buddha's teachings. My respect and love for the Buddha and what he did became unshakable and real. Anyway, as I had done some absorption before, I could see directly the differences between these two different practices. And that difference was the relaxing of the bodily formation often. If mind became distracted I let go of that distraction (any thing other than the meditation object - either metta or breathing) relax the tension caused by that disturbance and softly redirected mind back to the meditation object and relaxed on the in-breath, and relaxed on the out breath ,(as it says to do in the instructions). With one-pointed absorption concentration we were told to know when there was a distraction, let it go, then immediately come back to the meditation object. I came to realize, when comparing these two methods that when practicing the absorption method, I was bringing back a tension in both my mind and body and basically ignored it (because I wasn't told to relax) and this led to a very deep state of absorption where the hindrances were suppressed by the force of the concentration, and mind became "glued" to the meditation object, the body disappeared and only the meditation object (as described in the Visuddhi Magga) in all of its varies forms was present. But, when practicing that one extra step of relaxing, the entire meditation took on a different way of observation. Sometimes when I was practicing the Mahasi Method I fought real hard against having the hindrances arise. And I was told that when one got into access concentration the concentration would momentarily suppress them. But when I was practicing the tranquility method I began to see clearly that the hindrances were where my attachments were. So I treated them in the same way as a wandering thought. I Just noticed that mind was not on the meditation object let go of the distraction (hindrance) relaxed and softly redirected mind back to the object of meditation. By doing this I began to see clearly "HOW" mind became distracted and I began to see the process of dependent origination and how it really works in everything that arose. So I found out that the hindrances were not near as big a problem as before and my meditation began to naturally go deep but this time with a deeper kind of understanding and seeing the process of dependent origination became very clear. All of this kind of understanding occurs when the meditator is in jhana! And this is in agreement with the Anupada Sutta #111 in the Majjhima Nikaya. This sutta is Venerable Sariputta's experience of meditation as described by the Buddha himself. So you can see, the way I now teach has the 4 Foundations of mindfulness while the meditator is in each of the jhanas. All the way to nibbana. I also found out something interesting when I looked up the word "Samadhi" in Mr. Rhys-Davies Pali-English dictionary. The word "Samadhi" was never used before the time of the Buddha, actually the Buddha made this word up to describe a different type of concentration (than the current at that time absorption concentration). The actual definition of this word is "The super tranquilized mind that leads to jhana". This includes a very still composed mind that is very alert to whatever arises in the present moment. I hope this long description is helpful to you. If you want more info about how to practice Loving-Kindness Meditation please go to our website at www.dhammasukha.org and browse around there. I have written a booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness Meditation" We have this instruction read out loud so you can listen to it or you can download and print it out for yourself. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38215 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Robert, A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become enlightened when they live outside of the Buddha eras? Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38216 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Phil, You may find it helpful to go to my website at www.dhammasukha.org I have some talks there that you may find helpful especially the titled Metta in daily life. I have also written out the instructions for metta in a small booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness". There is also the instructions for "Mindfulness of Breathing" in another booklet. Please feel free to download these if you find them useful. I have also have a two part post about how to handle the hindrances when they arise that you may find helpful it is called The hindrances up close and personal. As I teach metta in a different way than most teachers in this country you may find that it is interesting how the 4 foundations are a major part of this practice. I have found over the years that there are actually two different types of jhana. One type leads to deep absorption and extreme one-pointedness and that was most people practice. The other type, the meditator doesn't get as deeply absorbed and has a fluid kind of awareness that seems to agree with the suttas. I teach the latter type with good results and the meditators can see each one of the foundations of mindfulness arise while they are in the jhana. So I have coined this type of meditation "Tranquil Wisdom" but it could as easily be called "Samatha/Vipassana". As says in sutta #149 of the Majjhima Nikaya samatha and vipassana are conjoined not disjoined and are to be practiced together. As you said "This is still my highest goal as a human being - to become more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions." May you be truly successful and with that kind of intention, may you attain nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38217 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, James - In a message dated 11/12/04 4:57:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I think that what you say here is slightly misleading. > There *are* a > >number of folks here, including me, who believe that conventional > existents > >such as trees, houses, and people have, indeed, only conventional > existence, > >which means, not that such percepts are without basis, but that > they are mental > >constructs, and have no existence independent of such construction > (and of the > >phenomena that are their basis). But the term 'anatta' doesn't > literally or > >directly apply to them to them, as I see it. It applies only > derivatively, and > >"in a manner of speaking" - that is, again, conventionally. The > phenomena to > >which 'anatta' directly applies are the interrelated physical and > mental dhammas > >that are the basis for conventional existents, that underly them - > phenomena > >directly apprehended through the six sense doors, unmediated by > conceptual > >construction. It is these that, while not being nihilistically > nonexistent, do > >lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these that truly > arise, but are > >fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but distinguishable) aspects of > the phenomenal > >flow. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Friend Howard (Rob M., at the end), > > As close as I can figure, you agree with what I stated. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that I do, at least not as you formulated it. However, if you agree with what I wrote above, then we are sufficiently close not to worry much about the formulational differences. ;-) ------------------------------------------ You > wrote, "It is these that, while not being nihilistically > nonexistent, do lack SELF-existence. They do lack atta. It is these > that truly arise, but are fleeting, dependent, inseparable (but > distinguishable) aspects of the phenomenal flow." Sometimes I feel > as if one needs a PhD to decipher your posts (and, alas, I only have > a masters ;-), but I think that you are agreeing with what I wrote. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Geez! And here I thought I was being both succinct and clear! I don't *think* I was quite agreeing with what you wrote, but I definitely do agree with what *I* wrote! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ > > Let's deal with just people since the Buddha didn't talk extensively > about philosophical subjects like the existence of trees and > houses. The Buddha examined himself and saw that he couldn't find > an atta (a self). What he found is that the "human being Gotama" > was a composition of form (physical body), feeling, perception, > thought, and consciousness. He further found that none of these > five aggregates, constantly changing, should be taken for self > because then there will be clinging to them and suffering. At no > point did he say, "I, The Fully Enlightened One don't exist. Only > the Five Aggregates exist. Only Nama/Rupa exists." The Buddha did > exist, and so do you and I. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: In a manner of speaking, certainly. The Buddha existed, and you and I exist, conventionally. We exist not as separable, unitary, graspable entities, but in dependence on a multiplicity of underlying dhammas and also in dependence on mental fabrication - on conceptualization. ------------------------------------------ We exist as an ever changing process, > > but we still exist. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I know exactly what you mean, but I just wouldn't put it this way. I don't think it *should* be put that way except with the understanding that this is just a manner of speaking, without there actually being any separable, definable "we" who are these processes. We're not far apart on this, James. I think we differ on emphasis and formulation. ----------------------------------------- This is important to understand or the whole > > teaching of anatta becomes muddled with ontological suppositions. > Hope I have made myself a bit clearer. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I think that anatta *is* a matter of ontology, an extraordinarily subtle ontology, and very deep - as deep as dependent origination, which is the other side of the very same coin. ----------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > inspiration… > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38218 From: Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Nina, I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to me is the last javana consciousnesses. Larry 38219 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Joop, I wrote a long email and have just realized that I didn't answer all of your questions. So I'm writing this to complete this answer. I use the Middle Length Discourses (Majjhima Nikaya) more than the Longer Discourses (Digha Nikaya). The Satipatthana Sutta is sutta #10. The section #32 on "Contemplation on Feeling" says: When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, he understands: 'I feel a pleasant worldly feeling'; when feeling an unworldly pleasant feeling. he understands: 'I feel an unworldly pleasant feeling'. Lets stop here and take a look at what that means. A worldly pleasant feeling is a sensual feeling of the five sense doors i.e. the eyes, ears, tongue, nose and body. Any sense feeling that is felt with the body is a worldly pleasant feeling. Also, obtaining a happy feeling when one gets want they want i.e. a new car for example. Now the unworldly pleasant feeling is attaining one of the four jhanas. Also, in the first part of this sutta it talks mostly about meditations where jhanas are experienced, the 32 parts of the body and the charnel grounds meditations. The 4 elements meditation is a part of the jhana meditations too. Now getting back to the sutta: "when feeling a painful worldly feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful worldly feeling'; when feeling an unworldly painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful unworldly feeling'. Lets stop here again. What is a worldly painful feeling? It is a painful feeling that arises at the sense doors and is unpleasant or it is not obtaining ones desires when it is wanted. What is the unworldly painful feeling? This is the spiritual longing for nibbana. Now let us go to the "Contemplation of Mind" it says: "He understands contracted mind as contracted mind, and distracted mind as distracted mind". A contracted mind is one that has sloth and torpor in it. A distracted mind is a mind that has restlessness in it. "He understands an exalted mind, as exalted mind and an unexalted mind as unexalted" - an exalted mind is the that has a rupa jhana in it and an unexalted mind is a mind that does not have the experience of jhana in it. - "He understands a surpassed mind, as a surpassed mind" -this is a mind that has the experience of one of the arupa jhana in it and an unsurpassed mind does not have the experience of the arupa jhana in it. So as you can see the Satipatthana Sutta has many references of jhana in it. To my way of thinking, after so much study of the suttas and practice of direct experience of meditation taught from the suttas, the different meditations described in the suttas all lead to the final goal of nibbana. And doing the Brahma Viharas helps one to soften their personality and helps mind become very clear. This in itself is a very great benefit in itself. In one of the suttas (and I can't remember which one right now) the Buddha said "we are the Happy Ones" when referring to those lucky people who practiced the Brahma Viharas not only in their daily life but while in sitting meditation. I have found in teaching others the Brahma Viharas that they do experience many benefits from this practice and other people do notice the changes in them for the better. I hope I have now answered your questions. If they are not clear please feel free to question me more. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38220 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become enlightened > when they live outside of the Buddha eras? > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, Welcome to the group and thanks for the question. Pacceka Buddhas develop parami for many, many asankheyya kappas. They learn Dhamma from various Buddha's in many lives and it is said they are greater than even sariputta or mahamoggallana. Thus they can become Buddha by themselves in their final life. However, they do not have the same depth of parami as a sammasambuddha and so cannot teach in detail. Robertk 38221 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:16pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > inspiration… Still reading. You've given me some excellent material thus far. I will work on the base presentation and leave it to you to add the spice for flavouring. If it makes it faster, you can just pass on "spicy" suggestions and leave the base stuff to me. It turns out that I will be able to use PowerPoint and a projector, so I am creating a set of slides. I am still trying to think of ways to make it more interactive (I only have 90 minutes, so a workshop would be difficult). Metta, Rob M :-) 38222 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Metta for oneself translation question Dear Group, I found this very interesting quote by the renowned meditation master and scholar Mahasi Sayadaw about how we deserve metta for ourselves. My only doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical Pali phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who *deserves* more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) It doesn't seem consistent with the translation of the rest of the passage. It is different saying that a person loves himself the most (the standard translation from the Mallika Sutta) and so if he loves himself he wouldn't harm another, and saying that he *deserves* his love and affection the most (I usually believe that I don't deserve to be happy which is a major obstacle to meditation) ======= "The Enlightened One has made an exposition by preaching a Verse as quoted below which indicates that a person loves his own self the most. Sabba disa anuparigamma' cetasa nevalihaga piyatara' mattana kvaci. Evam piyo puthu atta pareysam, tasama na him se paramattakamo. Sabba disa - all ten regions or places, cetasa - with imagination or thoughts, anuparigamma - going round and round in search of, attana piyataram - a person who deserves more love and affection than one's own Self, kvaci - in any place or anywhere, neva allhaga - cannot be found. Evam, Similarly, pareysam - other people also, puthu atta - with reference to their own respective Self, piyo - love (himself) the most. Tasama - Inasmuch as every being loves his own Self the most, attakamo - one who loves his own Self, nay, who cares most of his own welfare or for his own good, param - will not cause another person, na him se - suffer, misery, nay, should develop metta without causing misery to others. http://www.buddhanet.net/brahmaviharas/bvd020.htm Patrick Kearney challenges this translation in the following link and concludes saying "For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of unworthiness and self-hatred" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/162 What do you think? Thanks / Antony. 38223 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: "Develop!" Hello Robert, all, It is a simple thing now that you have explained it as a rhetorical device, but it had been a difficulty for me. Amazing the little things that are tough knots to undo sometimes. Thank you. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Robert, > > > > Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving, > as > > much as other dhammas, can > > be an object for understanding. .... There > > is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point > in > > time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower. > I > > have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high > > success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of > > energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can > > manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set > in > > place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And > > similarly with panna? > > > > Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct > > vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to > say 'Panna' > > knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is > > still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't > > mention Me. > >============= > Dear Christine, > The reason we use language like 'panna know' is only as a rhetorical > device to bring attention to the fact that it is in fact not my > seeing but only an element. Of course one can speak like that and > still believe and cling to self view. We can think 'there is no > self' but still believe it is me who chose to think like that! > > When we are concerned with making the conditions for insight to > arise, what is present? Only by seeing actaul relaities as they > arise will any understanding develop. > Certainly there are many conditions that are supportive of insight- > hearing true Dhamma, pondering it...discusion with wise friends. > Even keeping house and body clean are helpful. > But if there isn't direct awareness , to some degree, of the present > moment, in whatever situation, then insight will remain shallow. > Also other mental factors such as saddha strenghthen insight, and of > course insight strenghthes saddha too. > Robertk 38224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: India - Appropos of nothing Thank you Howard! :-) Yes, it is definitely the guests who have to fit in and change. Once you are away from it, it becomes quite endearing in hindsight - but when it is happening, the present reality arising is "murderous rage" (this is a joke! :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 11/12/04 4:22:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth1@b... writes: > > > So - I called one of the american ladies from the next room for > > assistance - mission accomplished. For all I know the bed head is > > still lying there along the windows, under the curtains, on the > > second floor of that hotel in India. It is possible that many > > guests have had Circular Conversations with Housekeeping about how > > it got there, and what should be done about it. > > > > They'll learn. > > > ========================= > From the sound of things, it seem that the "they" who will learn are > the guests, and not the staff! ;-)) > Your descriptions, BTW, are wonderful - and hilarious! > > With metta, > Howard > 38225 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:17am Subject: Nalanda ... if only .... Dear All, I'm still having reactions of 'I've been there! I saw that!' when I come across mention of places recently visited in India in the suttas. India is hard to shake off. Others from the trip are feeling the same - I had a message from a dear Dhamma friend mentioning the difficulty in settling back into the mundane workaday world, and the feeling of still being in an 'India-daze'. I was reading the sutta Majjhima 56 'To Upaali (where a wealthy and influential house-holder Upaali, a prominent supporter of the Jains, proposes to go to the Buddha and refute his doctrine. Instead, he finds himself converted by the Buddha's "converting magic"). I noticed in verse 13 that the Buddha had been to Nalanda: "What do you think, householder? Is this town of Nalanda successful and prosperous, is it populous and crowded with people?" "Yes, venerable sir, it is." "What do you think, householder? Suppose a man came here brandishing a sword and spoke thus: 'In one moment, in one instant, I will make all the living beings in this town of Nalanda into one mass of flesh, into one heap of flesh.' What do you think, householder, would that man be able to do that?" .... snipped ..... It brought back a memory of wandering sadly around the ruins, and speaking with an elderly volunteer who had an M.A. in Pali and Archeology. Nalanda was the site of the most renowned university in ancient India. It derived its name from Na-alam-da, meaning Insatiable in Giving, one of the names by which the Lord Buddha was known. The Buddha came to Nalanda often and stayed at Setthi Pavarika's mango grove. Two of the Great Disciples, Saariputta (Marshal of the Dhamma) and MahaaMoggallaana (Master of Psychic Powers) came from the vicinity of Nalanda. Saariputta, who was considered the foremost in wisdom, attained Nibbana here. Emperor Asoka came to Nalanda to worship at the chaitya (sacred place) of Saariputta and built another temple over the existing shrine. It was at this sanctified site that the Mahavihara was first established in the reign of Emperor Kumargupta in the 5th century A.D., a tradition carried forward by his successors inthe Gupta dynasty. During the reign of Devapala in the beginning of the 9th century, Nalanda reached its zenith of fame and glory. Scholars converged on this blessed place, but only two out of ten were allowed to enter as students (after examination by the Gatekeeper). It is said tht Nalanda had 2000 teachers, 10000 students and 1500 workers. The art of debate (vada) and public speaking, and secular subjects like mathematics and medicine were taught. Doctrinal points were continually debated and debating was a necessary part of monastic education. Among the renowned Indian scholars trained at Nalanda were Nagarjuna, Aryadeva and Asanga. Santarakshita, and thereafter, Padmasambhava, went to Tibet from Nalanda to spread the teachings of the Buddha. A massive fire, schisms between the different Buddhist sects and the resurgence of devotional Hinduism pushed Nalanda to the brink of destruction. Its final nemesis came with the Muslim invader Bakhtiyar Khalji, around 1200 A.D. who was responsible for its destruction. (I wonder what happened to him eventually?) Some of the (estimated) 9 million manuscripts were rescued from Nalanda's 700 year old libraries by a few of the monks who were able to flee from the onslaught. Tradition has it that the smoke billowed from the burning piles of books of the great University of Nalanda for 6 months. Today it is a World Heritage Site. One wonders, would things have been any different if only the books had not been burned, and the teachers not killed, both in Nalanda, and also in Alexandria? Perhaps, perhaps not - Still our world revolves by the power of greed, hate and delusion. Still some of us destroy that which is different or which we don't understand, not just those who have something we want. One wonders what Bakhtiyar Khalji and his troops felt, if there was any remorse or guilt? Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose! ... or Same old, same old ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38226 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:24am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Ps. Rob M, if you are reading, I am still working on the talks. > > Just taking a little break to freshen the mind ;-). Building > > inspiration… > > Still reading. You've given me some excellent material thus far. I > will work on the base presentation and leave it to you to add the > spice for flavouring. > > If it makes it faster, you can just pass on "spicy" suggestions and > leave the base stuff to me. > > It turns out that I will be able to use PowerPoint and a projector, > so I am creating a set of slides. > > I am still trying to think of ways to make it more interactive (I > only have 90 minutes, so a workshop would be difficult). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Friend Rob M., Since I know that your talk is coming soon, I will do as you suggest and give you some ideas to `spice' up the remainder factors of the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Action: "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual intercourse: This, monks, is called right action." Notes: Speak about how harmful actions, like killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct, `stain' a person for a very long time. Give the example of Lady Macbeth who couldn't remove the blood from her hands "Out, out damned spot!" But, in actuality, she couldn't remove the blood from her mind. Right Action will allow us to live without the `stain' of guilt and negative karma (Most teenagers have studied Macbeth in school or at least know of it). Right Livelihood: "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood." Notes: Speak about how greed for money should not outweigh the need to make an honest living. You could give the example of Ebenezer Scrooge, from A Christmas Carol, and how his greed for money alienated all of his friends and family. It wasn't until he gave up this greed did he find happiness. One should not have a job which harms others. Right Effort: "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non- arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." Notes: You could use the analogy of the mind as being like a flower garden. The flowers are the wholesome states of mind and the weeds are the unwholesome states of mind. To grow the flowers, you must water and fertilize them and give them care; you must also remove any weeds which grow so that they don't kill the flowers. Weeds, unwholesome thoughts, grow a lot faster than flowers and, if given the opportunity, can kill an entire garden. It is only by diligence that the garden can be made to grow beautiful. (I'm sure you can use your Abhidhamma knowledge to point out what are the mental weeds and what are the mental flowers ;-). Right Mindfulness: "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself - - ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness." Notes: Mindful? What is the mind supposed to be full of? Imagine the mind as like a gum ball machine full of gum balls. There are four different types of gum balls: red, blue, yellow, and green. The red gum balls are sensations from the body; the blue gum balls are feelings; the yellow gum balls are mental states; and the blue gum balls are various phenomena (dhammas). Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. Mindfulness is being aware of each gum ball, in and of itself, as it comes out of the machine. (This isn't a great analogy, but it is a simple as I can make this subject! ;-)) Right Concentration: "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." Notes: Right Concentration is composed of the four jhanas. Explain that jhanas are a very refined states of mind, in successive steps, that come about through meditation on single subjects (breath, Brahma Viharas, colors, etc.). You can make a comparison to video games which have different levels of achievement. In order to get to the next level in a video game, one must fulfill the requirements of the previous level. And the Buddha taught that his monks should practice the jhanas (and he taught laypeople to achieve at least the first two) as much as possible so that they can quickly get to the highest levels. Hope this helps. Metta, James 38227 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Thank you Bhante! I'm having trouble accessing most internet pages - they freeze up because of a virus problem with my computer. - but I was able to access yours. This could be a testimony to the power of the metta that is evident in your kind smile in the photographs! :) I look forward to learning more from your teaching. Metta, Phil > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > You may find it helpful to go to my website at www.dhammasukha.org I have > some talks there that you may find helpful especially the titled Metta in > daily life. I have also written out the instructions for metta in a small > booklet called "The Barebones of Loving-kindness". There is also the > instructions for "Mindfulness of Breathing" in another booklet. Please > feel free to download these if you find them useful. I have also have a > two part post about how to handle the hindrances when they arise that you > may find helpful it is called The hindrances up close and personal. 38228 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Dear Larry, No. It definitely is not. There are 5 successive javana cittas as the last minute vithi vara. You already know about javana andf this needs not to be explained. Javana is javana and it is not patisandhi or bhavanga or cuti. Three kinds of cittas are all the same in terms of bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma and arammana dhamma. They are patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas. You are right to say the first is given to the name patisandhi and the last is to cuti. Actually they are bhavanga cittas, yes. But according to their placement in serial and their function they are not bhavanga at all. Last life cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta are not the same. They may talke different bhumi, different jati, different sankhara, different sampayutta dhamma, and different arammana. But next life patisandhi and next life 1st bhavanga are all the same with the exception that patisandhi comes first. So it is very clear that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is called patisandhi citta. Javana cittas are never patisandhi or bhavanga or cuti cittas. Because javana cittas are conscious cittas or vithi cittas while all of patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta are vipaka cittas and they all are vithi-mutta cittas or sense-door-free consciousness. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses > actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga > consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to > me is the last javana consciousnesses. > > Larry 38229 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for this post. This part that you explained is very clear and easily understandable even for beginners if they do produce effort. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Vis. XIV, 112, 113 > > Text Vis. 112. When, through the influence of the profitable of the > fine-material > sphere (9)-(13) and the immaterial sphere (14)-(17), beings are reborn > [respectively] in the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming, > then the nine kinds of fine-material (57)-(61) and immaterial (62)- (65) > resultant occur as 'rebirth-linking'; and they do so making their object > only the sign of kamma that has appeared at the time of dying.[43] > ------------------------ > Note 43. ' "The sign of kamma" here is only the kamma's own object > consisting of an earth kasina, etc.' (Pm.478). > > N: When ruupajhaana or aruupajhaana has been developed and the jhaana has > not declined, kamma conditions the last javana-cittas which have as object > the meditation subject of ruupa-jhaana or aruupa-jhaana, and it will produce > rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or aruupa-brahma-planes, depending on the > stage of jhaana which has been attained. > > Vis. text: 113: When, through the influence of the unprofitable (22)-(33), > they are reborn in a state of loss, then the one kind of unprofitable > resultant > mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (56) occurs as > rebirth-linking; and it does so making its object whichever among the > kamma, sign of kamma, and sign of destiny has appeared at the time of > dying. > > N: There is only one type of akusala vipaakacitta that performs the function > of rebirth, bhavanga and dying and this is the santiira.na-citta that is > akusala vipaakacitta. This type has many degrees and arises in the unhappy > planes of existence: the animal world, the ghost world, the demon world and > the hell planes. > > Vis. text: This firstly is how the occurrence of nineteen kinds of resultant > consciousness should be understood as rebirth-linking. > > N: these types are: > 1 akusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma) > 1 kusala vipaaka santiira.na-citta (ahetuka, result of weak kaamaavacara > kusala kamma) > 8 mahaa-vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of kaamaavacara kusala kammas) > 5 ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of ruupa- jhaanacittas) > 4 aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (sahetuka, results of aruupa- jhaanacittas) > > Thus, nineteen types of citta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga > (life-continuum) and dying. > ***** > Nina. 38230 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:02am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dear Nina, As you said Abhidhamma is our daily life. If understood, it is a kind of meditation. When I read through your reply to Bhante Vimalaramsi, your reply is neutral and constructive as once I saw your response to Bhikkhu Samahita. Bhikkhus rarely join Groups and talk. Most bhikkhus that I know, to be exact, all bhikkhus that I know do not involve in public discussions at internet Groups with a few exceptions where there is strict control of vinaya. There are bhikkhus who never appeared at Groups but wrote to me and supported me what I have been looking for. For some posts, before I wrote I had to consult them and they searched in Tipitaka and helped me out. But they never appeared in internet. When we have access to bhikkhus we are fortunate. We all should welcome bhikkhus in Dhamma discussions. Especially experienced practising bhikkhus can help a lot to many people. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Venerable Bhante, > welcome to the list, thank you for writing. You give us food for thought. > I shall just touch on a few points. > > op 11-11-2004 17:09 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op > bhantevimalaramsi@j...: ..snip..snip.. .. We are born with different > accumulated tendencies. > You give us many points for reflection, thank you. I appreciate it that you > took the time to write to us. > With respect, > Nina. 38231 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, According to suggestions by moderators of this group and the list rules, I cut out all unused old message of yours. This is not disrespectful to you. I include this for you to understand me. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------- Bhante Vimalaramsi: One of the main differences was one sentence given in the instructions for the "Mindfulness of Breathing" (which by the way is ignored in the Visuddhi Magga) it says, "He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in, tranquilizing the bodily formation'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation". So I applied this tranquilizing with everything (that is not only while sitting in meditation, but when doing daily activities as well) and soon found a real difference in the way I saw how mind moved and worked. That was a real eye opener! Or as I have come to realize it a real "Oh, Wow" experience. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do write this becuase there are many who argue that suttas say samma-samadhi is all 8 jhanas that is 4 rupa jhanas and 4 arupa jhanas. I do not say suttas are wrong. Equally I do not say Abhidhamma is wrong. And I do not say suttas and Abhidhamma do not agree. There are those who purely learn Suttas and they devalue Abhidhamma and say Abhidhamma is not Buddha's words and so on. This show inability to penetrate Dhamma. I would strongly say that those who are in jhanas that is who are developing jhana cittas of rupavacara kind, those who are absorbed in jhanas cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta but they just see the object of rupavacara jhana cittas which is pannatti. No citta can take 2 objects at the same moment at the same time. Rupavacara jhana cittas ALWAYS ALWAYS take pannatti dhamma as their object. So they cannot take nibbana as their object. In citta portion of Dhamma Thread I have discussed this matter. But as it is very important and crucial, I repeat it here again. If in jhanas, the practitioner has to emerge from jhana and has to do paccavakkhana or scrutinization or contemplation on dhammas he experienced. At that time he is not in jhanas and not at pannatti dhamma. But as he is still in the vicinity of jhana, there is no hindrances at all and he is not absorbed at that time and mind is free and not fixed. At that time all cittas are kusala cittas. But they are not rupavacara rupakusala cittas or arupavacara arupakusala cittas which are jhanas. So their kusala cittas are kamavacara mahakusala cittas. These nana sampayutta cittas do lead to nibbana through manodvaravajjana, parikamma, upcara, anuloma, gotrabhu and then ascend up to magga citta. If the practitioner is still in rupa jhanas then he is seeing rupa jhana object which is pannatti dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 38232 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, Robert K and All, Paccekabuddhas do arise even in era when there does not arise any Sammasambuddha. Example paccekabuddhas-to-be are Devadattha and Ajatassattu. King Ajatasaatu did have the power that might lead him to sotapatti magga nana. But as there was Garuka Kamma of patricide, sotapatti magga citta could not arise and after his death, he was reborn in the lowest hell called 'avici' which means 'no interval of free of dukkha'. But niraya is also impermanent. When all his bad kamma that led him to be reborn in that realm he will reborn in other realm and when he is back to sugati, his final life will be paccekabuddha. Devadattha did a lot of Garuka Kamma of akusala kind like harming and bruising to The Buddha several times and division of Sangha and he had to be reborn in avici niraya. But when he is back to sugati and his finally life will be paccekabuddha. There are 3 kinds of Sammasambuddhas. They have to perfect for their own perfection according to their power. 1. Saddhadhika ( 16 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) 2. Viriyadhika ( 8 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) 3. Pannadhika ( 4 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ) Paccekabuddhas-to-be have to perfect 2 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Aggasavakas-to-be have to perfect 1 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Mahasavakas-to-be have to perfect 0 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas. Samannasavakas-to-be have to perfect less than above great beings. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi > wrote: > > > > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > > > A quick question to contemplate. How do Pacceka Budhas become > enlightened > > when they live outside of the Buddha eras? > > > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, > Welcome to the group and thanks for the question. > Pacceka Buddhas develop parami for many, many asankheyya kappas. > They learn Dhamma from various Buddha's in many lives and it is said > they are greater than even sariputta or mahamoggallana. Thus they > can become Buddha by themselves in their final life. > However, they do not have the same depth of parami as a > sammasambuddha and so cannot teach in detail. > Robertk 38233 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Bhante: Dhamma Greetings Phil, ..snip..snip.. ..As you said "This is still my highest goal as a human being - to become more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions." May you be truly successful and with that kind of intention, may you attain nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, Knee-jerk reactions can only be free when the components are no more working like cutting up of nerve that supplies knee. All human beings who are disease free do have knee jerks. If they have lost knee jerks this indicate something is happening. Arahats who are free of disease will have knee jerks. Knee jerk is nothing to do with cittas. With respect, Htoo Naing 38234 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 121 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Pannatti dhamma is an interesting subject. It does not arise and it does not fall away. It is not an event. It is non-event. It does not hold any of tilakkhana namely anicca or impermanance, dukkha or suffering, and anatta or non-self. Pannatti is not an ultimate reality. It is not an ultimate truth. But it is very important dhamma. Without pannatti we will not understand anything at all. That is why we need to study pannatti dhamma in dhamma study. If pannatti is not understood, then paramattha dhamma will not be understood. When dhammas are not understood, it is hard to transcend this samsara or round of births which is birth-death-birth-death- birth..beginningless-endless cycle. So what does pannatti mean? Pannatti means 'name' 'idea' notion' 'concept' 'designation' 'description' 'manifestation' or 'making known'. Pannatti is a dhamma that makes us known paramattha dhamma and also pannatti dhamma as well. So this is quite evident that pannatti does help us understand everything including pannatti. There are two forms of pannatti dhamma even though both do not exist as ultimate realities or ultimate truths. These two types are atthapannatti and saddapannatti. Saddapannatti is based on sound or voice that represent atthapannatti while atthapannatti is the intrinsic meaning of any pannatti dhamma. Example of saddapannatti is 'water'. When we look through paramattha- scope, there is no water at all. Surely 'water' is pannatti dhamma. But whenever it is shown to anyone in this world on this earth, those who have been shown 'water' will understand it as 'water'. This is the intrinsic nature of 'water' which does not exist as an ultimate reality. This meaning in its intrinsic nature is called atthapannatti. No other material will take the position of water. This is atthapannatti. Saddapannatti on the other hand is based on voice or sound that human beings use to bring up the meaning of 'water'. Example is when the voice saying 'water' will not make any understanding to people who never heard of the voice saying 'water' before and never learned before that 'water' is what they know 'water'. When 'water' is voiced by a speaker and it is heard by listeners who are not English and who never learned English will not know that they are being told about 'water'. But when they are shown water they will definitely know that what they heard actually referred to 'water' which they have already known. Water may be sounded or voiced in other languages that are not English which will be different articulation and different voice- sound. Examples are paani, udaka, apa, yay, suei, mitsu and many others. All these stand on their own and they will each make known to their particular language speaker. But in essence, all are the same and it is water. This intrinsic nature that make us knwon as 'water' is called 'atthapannatti'. Other voices that represent the same meaning are all saddapannatti. Pannatti is essential. Without pannatti we cannot discuss anything at all. But we must know what are pannatti dhamma and what paramattha dhamma. This again will depend on how deeply we have learned. Otherwise differentiation between pannatti dhamma and paramattha dhamma is very difficult and it even needs practical experience. There are 6 different atthapannattas. They are 1.vijjamana pannatta, 2.avijjamana pannatta, 3.vijjamanenavijja pannatta, 4.avijjamanenaavijja pannatta, 5.vijjamanenaavijja pannatta, 6.avijjamanenavijja pannatta. Examples of these pannatta dhammas are 1. vijjamana pannatta Sadda. This is sound. Its intrinsic nature or intrinsic meaning is sound that we can heard through our ear. Those words whichever languages we are using, which represent 'sound' in its atthapannatta is that it is a reality and it is ultimate truth. This can be proved as sound does exist. So this kind of atthapannatta is called 'vijjamana pannatta'. Vijja means 'penetrative wisdom'. Mana here means 'building' 'measure'. So vijjamana means 'wisdom- building'. Even though the word 'sound' does not exist which is a pannatta and not an ultimate reality, it brings up 'wisdom-building idea'. So here the example 'sadda' is called 'vijjamana pannatta'. 2. avijjamana pannatta Water. This is a word that isn used to represent the meaning of water. But there is no water in ultimate sense. Water is not an ultimate reality. When people do not understand this pannatta matter, they try to argue endlessly quoting old wisdom that was developed by philosophers of different era and different background. Actually there is no water at all in ultimate sense. What we see as water is not water. It is clear colourless substance that reflects into our eye as bright light of different degrees according to ambient temperature and weather. What we hear is not water. Even 'apo rupa' which is sensed by manodvara is not water. So there is no water at all in ultimate sense. So this word 'water' which is a pannatta, atthapannatta does not bring up any ultimate sense and does not build up wisdom. So it is avijjamana pannatta. 3. vijjamanenavijja pannatta Cakkhu vinnana. Cakkhu is a vijjamana pannatta. Vinnana is also vijjamana pannatta. Both build up wisdom and this combination making a new word called 'cakkhuvinnana' is also building up wisdom. Cakkhuvinnana does exist as an ultimate reality and it has ultimate meaning, ultimate sense. So it brings up understanding of ultimate truth called paramattha dhamma. So this kind of pannatta is called vijjamanenavijja pannatta. 4. avijjamanenaavijja pannatta Raja putto. King's son. There is no 'king' in ultimate sense. There is no 'son' in ultimate sense. So rajaputta or king's son is called avijjamanenaavijja pannatta. 5. avijjamanenavijja pannatta Itthi saddo. Woman's voice. There is no woman at all in ultimate sense. But there is 'voice' or 'sound' which is an ultimate reality and builds up wisdom. So Itthisaddo or woman's voice is called avijjamanenavijja pannatta. 6. vijjamanenaavijja pannatta Cakkhu dvara. Eye door. There exists 'cakkhu' which is an ultimate reality. But there is no 'door' at all. This word is a pannatta and it is called vijjamanenaavijja pannatta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38235 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Htoo, The fourth jhana is divided into different sections and are commonly called the arupa jhanas. And what you are describing and the jhanas is talking about the one-pointed absorption jhanas. I agree when looked at in this way. But when the meditator does follow the instructions closely in the suttas they will see a different type of awareness as did Venerable Sariputta in sutta #111 of the Majjhima Nikaya (The Anupada Sutta) the list of things that Venerable saw one by one as they occurred are (for the first jhana): The applied thought, the sustained thought, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness; the zeal (chanda), decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity and attention - these things were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him they arose, know to him they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being, having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepeled, independent, detached, free, dossociated, with a mind rid of barriers." This sutta then goes on the describe each of the different jhanas up to the Realm of Nothingness. This is very interesting because the 5 aggregates are in each of these jhanas and are clearly seen. So when you are talking about this kind of jhana (Tranquility) they are many different things that can and do arise while one is practicing meditation. And again, this is a different kind of awareness than what you have so kindly pointed out. The differences between the one-pointed absorption jhana and the tranquility jhana are as different as night and day. To have that fluid kind of awareness while in jhana is truly a remarkable experience and the only way that I have found to experience this is by adding that extra step of tranquilizing the bodily formation on the in and out breath. I sincerely hope that you do see the difference between the 2 different types of jhana. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38236 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, Because my Buddha-Dhamma is grounded in the practical (experiential) approach not theoretical approach ( theories can change to easily, but when one has a direct experience they know exactly for themselves so the experiential experience has the saddha that the Buddha was talking about in it), how does one overcome the knee-jerk reactions? When practicing through meditation the meditator becomes very, very familiar with how all of the hindrances arise all of the time, not just while sitting in meditation. As they are beginning to see, this is an impersonal process of dependent origination, they will eventually begin to see for themselves exactly how this works more and more rapidly and let it go much more quickly (this is the way sati helps the meditator to let go of any and all knee-jerk reactions). One of the functions of meditation is to help the meditator to become more and more familiar with this impersonal process of dependent origination and with the being familiar with/of this process, it helps the meditator to speed up their awareness and calm ones mind. The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise. Loving-acceptance of the present moment, then relaxing any tensions found in the mind/body is the way to equanimity all of the time. Ergo, the knee-jerk reactions begin to disappear with the direct experiential development of close observation (sati) of "HOW" dependent origination actually arises in every moment. It is interesting to see so many people talk about "craving" but don't really know what it is. So we get into definitions again. From the experiential point of view, the tightness that arises with each movement of mind is "craving". "Craving" is the "I like it... I don't like it mind" (Please notice that this is where the false idea of a personal self (atta or "I") begins. So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this false idea of a personal self[atta]). And this "craving" always manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body (especially in the head) so the instructions given in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta to tranquilize the bodily formation on the in and out breath is essential because it shows one the subtle tensions and tightnesses (cravings) that we carry around with us all of the time. In the Anapanasati Sutta it not only tells us to tranquilize the bodily formation but to tranquilize the mental formation on the in and out breath. I hope this is of some use to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38237 From: dowistgrasshopper Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, You raise an interesting question: what is the difference between detachment (alobha) and insight (pa~n~na). First, to address a possible misconception, there can be the case where one can regard an object with the idea "this is not me because I am something else". For example, I can look at an unpleasant feeling with the idea I am not this feeling because I am the unfeeling but intelligent consciousness looking at the feeling. There is obviously misunderstanding here. True detachment would simply regard the feeling without any additional baggage. Perhaps the main difference between detachment and what I called non-relational insight is one of superficiality and depth. Insight is a compulsion* to thoroughly investigate. It wants to get at the real feeling in the feeling, this one right now. It wants to know it for what it is, thoroughly and completely as it is. While detachment is not particularly interested. There is clearly a difference in experience here, but the most important aspect of this is that insight is able to dismantle reactive habits (accumulations) and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise again. Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated it can become a wholesome habit. Larry ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. What do you think? 38238 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, Don't be alarmed. I've been fooling around with my settings and I accidentally crossed into the twilight zone. I'm the "dowistgrasshopper" from a previous incarnation. Larry 38239 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Dhamma Greetings James, Thank you for your kind appreciation of what I am trying to say. And I do have a question about feeling because this seems to me a place where many people have the tendency to get side tracked. In the process of dependent origination it is good to recognize feeling when it arises but the most important step in the ending of this process is in between feeling and "craving". Feeling by itself is just pleasant, painful or neither pleasant nor painful. But what happens right after the feeling arises is where so much dukkha arises. In a previous post I gave a definition of "craving" as being the "I like it... I don't like it mind" This is the point where both mind and body begin to tighten and clinging arises. "Clinging" is the concepts, ideas, and story about the craving and feeling. And this is where the false idea of a personal 'self' really takes hold and expands. And when the meditator's awareness is sharp enough they will be able to clearly see when a feeling arises and can relax right then (tranquilize both the bodily and mental formations). When this is done the "clinging" doesn't arise and the meditator is free from all of the mental chatter for a moment. Please let me explain something about letting go of "craving". When one is truly aware of the subtle tightnesses and tensions in their mind and body and let them go, there is a kind of subtle relief that first arises then a feeling of openness or expansion happens in ones mind and body. Right after that mind becomes exceptionally quiet, no thoughts arise at that time. This is the true "Cessation of Craving" (the third Noble Truth). Then the meditator brings this "craving free" mind back to the meditation object (be it the breath, metta, or a color). This is how mind becomes truly free from suffering and it must be done every time mind becomes distracted and begins to have hindrances in it (not only while one is formerly sitting in meditation, but all of the time [as much as possible anyway]). So my question is why such a strong focus on just the feeling? It seems to me to be much better to see the impersonal (anatta) process of the entire dependent origination. Again it seems to me that the more familiar one becomes with exactly how this impersonal process works the faster their progress in meditation will be. Hope this has been helpful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38240 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:08am Subject: Bogus monks Hi, I have seen monks behaving improperly. I wish to know whether such behaviors are a breach of their training rules. I am perplex with what I read in books and what I have seen. Here are some questions I wish to get clarifications. Thanks, Rahula 1. Can monks used credit cards? 2. Can they go out at night, eg. to a cafe for a drink? (I saw a group of four monks having drinks and using videocam at a cafe during one night when I was there.) 3. I have seen monks in shopping complexes etc. Is this behaviour proper for monks? 4. As far as I know, monks are refrain from accepting gold and silver (money). But I have seen monks paying bus fare. Is this act a breach of the Patimokkha Training Rules (Buddhist Monastic Code)? 38241 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:06am Subject: Offering to the departed Hi, Recently, I read a book, ¡°Honouring The Departed- A Buddhist Perspective¡± by Aggacitta Bhikkhu. I feel uneasy and illogical. The viewpoint put forward by the author have make me questions the validity of Buddhism. I have always thought of Buddhism as a ¡°religion¡± that is not superstitious. It¡¯s regarding sharing merits with ghost, offering foods to the departed and Tirokutta Sutta According to the author, making offerings (food and drinks) to the departed was already an Indian custom at the time of Buddha, and suggest that that is how we should honour the departed. Is this true? It doesn¡¯t make sense, and sounds crazy. I have always thought that this practice is only done by those superstitious Chinese. What I have been reading all this while is that we perform meritorious deeds (eg. Dana to the Sangha) and then share the merits with the departed and only a peta would be able to partake in the sharing of merits. What is your opinion on this matter? Best wishes, Rahula 38242 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:32am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > Thank you for your kind appreciation of what I am trying to say. And I do > have a question about feeling because this seems to me a place where many > people have the tendency to get side tracked. Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, thank you for the e-mail. Yes, when I stated that the emphasis of awareness should be on the feelings, I of course also meant the underlying tendencies to craving, aversion, or ignorance in regards to such feelings. In my mind, it is really impossible to separate the two. One must be aware of the feelings and the underlying tendencies to such feelings. As the Buddha said: "In the case of pleasant feelings, O monks, the underlying tendency [8] to lust should be given up; in the case of painful feelings, the underlying tendency to resistance (aversion) should be given up; in the case of neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings, the underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up. "If a monk has given up the tendency to lust in regard to pleasant feeling, the tendency to resistance in regard to painful feelings, and the tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor- pleasant feelings, then he is called one who is free of (unwholesome) tendencies, one who has the right outlook. He has cut off craving, severed the fetters (to future existence), and through the full penetration of conceit,[9] he has made an end of suffering." Also: "There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings." A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] Metta, James 38243 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Nina Dear Suan, op 12-11-2004 15:35 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Nikaayantaraladdhiihi, asammissam anaakulam; > mahaavihaaravaasiinam, diipayanto vinicchayam. > Attham pakaasayissaami, aagama.t.thakathaasupi; > gahetabbam gahetvaana, tosayanto vicakkha.ne. > >> From Acariya Buddhaghosa's A.t.thasaalinii Ganthaarambhakathaa. > > "I will expose the meaning, satisfying the intelligent > By presenting the findings of the Great Temple Residents, > Which are not contaminated by alien doctrines, > Nor incoherent, and by taking whatever should be taken in the Suttam > Commentaries as well." N: He speaks very straight, straight to the heart. It appeals to me. When I was in Bodhgaya, we had a Dhamma discussion right next to the stupa commemorating Buddhaghosa's cremation. I had piiti and somanassa paying respect there. Thank you for this post, clarifying Buddhaghosa's position. Nina. 38244 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Hi Larry, op 12-11-2004 06:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Why can't the final javanacitta be a sotaapanna lokuttara citta? N: When lokuttara magga-citta arises, its result, the phalacitta has to follow immediately (akaalika), without delay, in the same process. The result of lokuttara magga-citta could never be rebirth-consciousness. We read in the suttas that people at the end of life could attain enlightenment, but this does not happen during the last javana-cittas. It can be shortly before. recap. Vis. XIV, 105: At the moment of enlightenment, magga-citta arises, and then it is followed in the same process by phalacittas, fruition consciousness. The magga-citta conditions the vipaakacitta, fruition consciousness by way of anantara-paccaya and other conditions. There is no delay, it is akaliko. Vis. VII, 31: Kamma that is worldly, lokiya, produces its result later on, but the kusala kamma that is magga-citta, is the only kamma that produces vipaaka in the same process. ....N: Kusala kamma that is not lokuttara is a link in the cycle of birth and death. In the Expositor (II, p. 290) this kind of kamma that accumulates is compared to the building up a wall. The lokuttara magga-citta pulls down and demolishes this wall. Its result is completely different from the result of kamma of the other three planes of citta, it is not a link in the cycle of birth and death, it could not produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth-consciousness nor by way of a pleasant experience through one of the senses. **** The object of the lokuttara cittas is nibbana. The pa.tisandhi-citta and all bhavangacittas of the following life could never take nibbana as object. They have as object: kamma, kammanimitta or sign of destiny. L: By saying the object of bhavanga citta in this life is a sign of this > life I didn't mean that this sign influences this life, only that this > sign represents this life, just as the kamma, sign of kamma, or sign of > destiny which is the object of the final javana gives us an indication > of the next life. So, if we want to know what the object of bhavanga is > in this life we just have to look at this life. The kammavipaka of this life is the object of bhavanga, in a way, generally speaking. Correct? N: Instead of kammavipaka I find the term result of kamma clearer. There are many varied vipaakas in our life, and these may be the results of kammas of past lives even aeons ago. We can never trace this. We do not know anything about kammas of the past. And why should we find out? Why should we try to find out the object of our bhavangas? That distracts us from understanding seeing now, hearing now, anger now, all realities of our daily life we have to understand as not I or mine. This is our life task. Nina. 38245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hello Phil, op 12-11-2004 12:19 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Whatever it is that we find useful for becoming more detached, whether > it is in meditation, in the Suttanta, in Abhidhamma, in the commentaries, > even in an Elvis Presley song, if that works, it will help us towards > understanding > the Buddha's supreme teaching of anatta. N: During our India trip detachment was stressed every day. And it is understanding that leads to it. My lobha, that is wrong. Pañña can understand it as only a conditioned reality. Before we realize it we take it as my lobha, my dosa, although we know the truth in theory. PH: Thus I don't understand the need to defend Buddhaghosa, for example. If > his commentaries > help us become detached, they are good Dhamma. If not, the discerning mind > will know soon enough. N: Yes, we have to find out ourselves. A. Sujin said: the Buddha helped us to develop our own understanding. We are not dependent on someone else. She also said: we need not call it Buddhaghosa. Any person who can help us to have right understanding we should listen to. Nina. 38246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help with clarification of "control" Dear Dave, op 12-11-2004 09:31 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > I won't say more as KenH and TG have already given you helpful answers. > I'd be glad if you would look at the posts or ask further questions. You > might even like to raise your initial one again for Nina to see. N: Yes, do repeat your questions, Nina. 38247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Phil and friends, op 12-11-2004 23:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a > choice between liberation from > samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea > and quiet in the house > and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! N: Yes, this is very sincere. I discussed your mail with Lodewijk (for those who do not know: my husband) at the dinner table. He said that he is satisfied with a step by step gradual progress, quite happy with a few crumbs of knowledge and understanding. Of course without losing sight of the eventual aim nibbana, how far away it may be. In India I was reading aloud to him the satipatthana sutta at the place where the Buddha preached this sutta: in Kuru. This place was a heap of dirt and public toilet before, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. We were up on the rocks sitting near the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Lodewijk said by hearing this sutta he came to the conclusion that without insight and understanding of the present moment no progress is possible. He said that the perfections cannot be developed without satipatthana, no metta without satipatthana. He finds the perfection of truthfulness most essential. We deceive ourselves all the time. We take for kusala what is akusala, we do not notice clinging to self, or conceit. We have to understand the present moment. I said to him: people will ask how this is developed. He answered: it is of no use to ask too many questions or debate about it. Develop it, it will grow by its own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this hinders. Nina. 38248 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Htoo: "So it is very clear that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is called patisandhi citta." Hi Htoo, This makes sense. Perhaps we could say cuti citta does the job of not continuing. Ordinarily this wouldn't seem like a job, but there is something about bhavanga cittas that otherwise makes them continue. This is part of their function, if not condition. Btw, any thoughts on what is the difference between function and condition? They both continue. Larry 38249 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Nina, and all > If I'm honest with myself, if I was given a > > choice between liberation from > > samsara and a day off with lots of suttas to read and a pot of herbal tea > > and quiet in the house > > and sunshine filling the room I would probably choose the latter! > N: Yes, this is very sincere. Phil: I remembered this comment of mind during the day at one point, and realized that although I had said it in a joking way it contrains a *very* important truth for me. Do I truly understand the First Noble Truth? I skip over that one quickly. Of course I understand suffering, I think. But I realized - again - that the purpose of my Dhamma study at this point, if I am honest with myself, is not to seek liberation from samsara. I want life to be more pleasant, more enjoyable, in a refined way. I want to be more patient and generous and helpful to people through cultivation of the Brahma-Viharas, but there is most definitely an interest in self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. Never the desire to be liberated from samsara, to reach Nibbana. Never a thought of Nibbana, never a single aspiration towards Nibanna. I want more experience of the senses, more rebirth in the human realm, albeit it in a more refined way. That is still hiding behind all my talk of eradicating defilements. > I discussed your mail with Lodewijk (for those > who do not know: my husband) at the dinner table. He said that he is > satisfied with a step by step gradual progress, quite happy with a few > crumbs of knowledge and understanding. Of course without losing sight of the > eventual aim nibbana, how far away it may be. Phil: Please give my best wishes to Lodewijk. I'm glad to hear that the trip was invigorating for his health. (I think that's what you said.) I would say I am satisfied with my progress now. At least I know that I don't really understand the First Noble Truth yet. That's progress. > In India I was reading aloud to him the satipatthana sutta at the place > where the Buddha preached this sutta: in Kuru. This place was a heap of dirt > and public toilet before, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of > foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. We were up on the rocks > sitting near the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Lodewijk said by hearing > this sutta he came to the conclusion that without insight and understanding > of the present moment no progress is possible. He said that the perfections > cannot be developed without satipatthana, no metta without satipatthana. He > finds the perfection of truthfulness most essential. We deceive ourselves > all the time. We take for kusala what is akusala, we do not notice clinging > to self, or conceit. We have to understand the present moment. I said to > him: people will ask how this is developed. He answered: it is of no use to > ask too many questions or debate about it. Develop it, it will grow by its > own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this hinders. Phil: This is like the carpenter's adze(?) handle, isn't it? Knowledge of our progress will arise in daily life (the using of the carpenter's tool) in a very subtle way. The carpenter doesn't stand back and look at the handle of the tool and decide how much it has worn away. He comes to know as he's using it that something has changed. Very subtle. I remember when I read your book on perfections that the perfection of truthfulness was the one I felt that I understood least. It felt like it was just a rewording of the perfection of wisdom. But now because of my and your post I understood a little more what it's about. I remember that when I re-read the book I made a note in the margin intending to ask you about it, but as usual I never got around to it. Maybe I sensed that the answer would arise on its own, due to conditions. Of course there are times when it's best to ask questions right away as well. Metta, Phil p.s I will ask one now. A few months ago you made mention of a term that refers to postponing one's understanding (my paraphrase) about not pressing too hard to find answers when the understanding hasn't arisen yet. It was in the context of something that is taught to monks within the Vinaya (sp?) or the commentary on it. Does that ring a bell? Thanks in advance. 38250 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi All (especially James), I have completed my first draft of my "Eightfold Noble Path for Teens" and uploaded it into the Files Section of DSG. I used a number of advanced PowerPoint features, so it may not work the same way on your computer as it does on mine. When I showed it to my 12-year old son, he said, "Daddy, you're not teaching Dhamma, you just want to show off your PowerPoint skills!" I am really indepted to James for giving me ideas on how to present this material for a younger audience. I used almost all of the ideas he provided (James, the audience are Chinese-educated and will not have read Hamlet... and I don't know enough about classical Chinese literature to draw examples). I am going to do a "dry run" with my Abhidhamma class this morning (many of them have teenage children). The actual talk with the teens is not until Tuesday night, so I would appreciate any feedback by then. As background, the teens are participating in a Novitiate programme; living like a monk for a week and attending dhamma talks every day (the boys even have their heads shaved). I decided against a workshop format because: - Limited time (90 minutes) - Range of ages of kids (12 - 18) make sharing difficult - No way that I could control 50 kids by myself Metta, Rob M :-) 38251 From: Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and James) - I just took some time before going out for the evening to look at your power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's wonderful - it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38252 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and James) - > > I just took some time before going out for the evening to look at your > power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's wonderful > - it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! I think that James and I make a great team; his content with my PowerPoint skills :-) By way of self-criticism, I think that I need to add in a slide in the "Right Effort" section to define what is "Good" and what is "Bad" according to Buddhism (i.e. roots). Looking forward to any other suggestions for improvement! Metta, Rob M :-) 38253 From: Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/13/04 7:02:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Rob (and James) - > > > > I just took some time before going out for the evening to > look at your > >power-point presentation. (I've only gone partly through it.) It's > wonderful > >- it's brilliant!! SADHU!!! > > I think that James and I make a great team; his content with my > PowerPoint skills :-) > > By way of self-criticism, I think that I need to add in a slide in > the "Right Effort" section to define what is "Good" and what > is "Bad" according to Buddhism (i.e. roots). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think that's a good idea. BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". ---------------------------------------- > > Looking forward to any other suggestions for improvement! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38254 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You > have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". Good catch... I also noticed that I alternate between "Noble Eightfold Path" (correct) and "Eightfold Noble Path" (incorrect). I am also going to mention on my summary of right thoughts slide that these three right thoughts lead one to a happy rebirth. Looking forward to other points. Metta, Rob M :-) 38255 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Rob, Does one need to have any special software in order read the presentation? I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > BTW, there is a typo on slide 32: You > > have "Payful puppy" imstead of "Playful puppy". > > Good catch... I also noticed that I alternate between "Noble > Eightfold Path" (correct) and "Eightfold Noble Path" (incorrect). > > I am also going to mention on my summary of right thoughts slide > that these three right thoughts lead one to a happy rebirth. > > Looking forward to other points. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38256 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Christine, It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double-clicking on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will run automatically. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > presentation? > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > 38257 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Christine, I created a .PDF version that you can read using free Acrobat reader software (you don't need PowerPoint). You don't get to see the great special effects, but the content is there. It is a big file, so I won't leave it there for long. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double- clicking > on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will run > automatically. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Rob, > > > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > > presentation? > > > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > > 38258 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Rob, Perhaps I should let it be - I've tried to download the new file and I get a blank page with this address at the top in the Address line: http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QNiWQVulfkkqGNBa0L1BGCJj46YeNv_3m3AafsD1 xvR8xzivl0_bPHptOs-GvOd3ESfdsGarpW7tpmQwdBRUvIXyLbsZEkCXy3cuzunBpg/z% 20-%20Noble%208fold%20Path.pdf Down the foot of the page it says Unknown Zone and shows a picture of a little computer with a red downward arrow and the word "Done". But nothing appears. Maybe I should download Acrobat 6 again. I'll try that and see what happens.Thanks for your kind efforts, Rob, I wish I was a little more expert with computers. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > I created a .PDF version that you can read using free Acrobat reader > software (you don't need PowerPoint). You don't get to see the great > special effects, but the content is there. It is a big file, so I > won't leave it there for long. > > Hope this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > It is PowerPoint (comes with Microsoft Office). Try double- > clicking > > on the file. If your computer has PowerPoint installed, it will > run > > automatically. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Rob, > > > > > > Does one need to have any special software in order read the > > > presentation? > > > > > > I have downloaded it but I can't seem to open it. > > > Wordpad doesn't work. Any suggestions? > > > 38259 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > I have completed my first draft of my "Eightfold Noble Path for > Teens" and uploaded it into the Files Section of DSG. > Friend Rob M., Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! Some suggestions: The bright pink header in the Right Thought section (don't know the slide number) reads "Right Understanding" when it should read "Right Thought". It is where Right Thought is defined as Renunciation, Good Will, and Harmlessness with bright pink arrows (just gotta love those graphics! ;-). You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No Adultery". I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't what the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you are trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because they are still under the protection of their parents, but you should say it that way. Honesty is important. And the stupa analogy at the end is very confusing. I believe that you are trying to get into advanced dhamma with those slides and there hasn't been enough lead in. You may leave the kids confused at the end and then their confidence in what they just learned will be lessened. Just a suggestion. Overall, a very excellent job! I am glad that I had the opportunity to help you some with it. Metta, James 38260 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello James (Rob), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote> > Friend Rob M., > > Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by > your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining > (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how > you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the > rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the > picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! > Groan!! I've been trying to do that all afternoon. What program do I need to view it? I'm happy to buy something to see the power point version. Just have to know what and where to get it. So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download Manager under control. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38261 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** There are many different kinds of feeling and therefore we should not imagine that it is easy to recognize feelings. When we study the Abhidhamma we realize better what we do not know. It is difficult to distinguish painful bodily feeling from rúpa, or from domanassa. When we have pain, we ‘feel’ that something is hurting and we may think that it is easy to discern bodily painful feeling. However, we may not be able to distinguish the painful feeling which is nåma from the rúpa which is impinging on the body-sense. We are usually thinking of the spot which is hurt and then we are thinking of a concept. The thinking is a reality which can be known when it appears, the concept is not a reality. It is important to know the difference between ultimate realities and concepts. A precise knowledge of the different nåmas and rúpas which arise each because of their own conditions will help us to be less deluded about our life. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38262 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, > Sukin: It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any insight into > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. Dan: It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. Sukin: The goal of Dhamma practice is the eradication of lobha at all levels. However this is a process which takes a long time and must happen in stages, beginning with Right View. So as far as I am concerned, `attachment to self' is not the focus of attention, though it is quite important to detect this in oneself. However since Right View is where one starts, it is more important to consider this and allow for the fact that in the beginning, the understanding might only be conceptual. It is only with practice that moments of attachment to self will be gradually understood. ------------------------------------- Dan: Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but is strongly attached to Self? Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding words? There is a striking distinction between them. Sukin: Obviously, patipatti is accompanied with panna of a higher level than pariyatti and the goal is pativedha. And reading, memorizing or even seeing some logical relations between different concepts may not be pariyatti at all. However when it *is* pariyatti, then the most basic building block is indeed being laid, without which the other two levels cannot be conditioned to arise. And when the latter have been experienced to any degree, then `theory' too will be understood more deeply. But again I repeat; only Buddhas could have patipatti and pativedha without first hearing the Teachings in any particular lifetime. ---------------------------------------- > Sukin: conditioned namas and rupas. You could ask your "selfless friends" who > have not heard the Buddha's teachings, what they thought about anatta. > I am quite certain that they would not readily accept it. And this would > indicate that indeed their experiences were *not* satipatthana. Dan: It would? Are you sure? Sukin: Of course I am never sure about anything, and whatever I state is just personal opinion. But I have stated some reasons for this, which may not be enough to convince you. And I can't state all the reasons because not everything comes to mind and not every understanding can be expressed. But I am open to any arguments from you or anyone which might disprove my position. I would like to try at this point, to express what I think your basic premise is when you state about someone relying on `speculation', and comment on it. In conventional matters, I think it is right that without experience, if we were to state something to be the case, then it is speculation. But I don't think this applies to the matter of understanding anything, esp. with regard to Dhamma. The function of panna is not `experience', and information about past experience is not what panna at this moment is being based upon. Panna is developed upon accumulated panna as sankhara and sati is one proximate cause. The actual moment of panna arising is very short but this is distinctly different from `thinking'. Thinking can be with or without panna, but when it is, this is not speculation, and in fact if subsequent moments are just `parroting' of theory, this may still not be `speculating'. There is no reason why panna cannot have concepts as object and it makes sense that in the beginning this must be the case. It has to start from somewhere and in development the very same concept is better and better understood even without any direct experience. Let us take for example the statement that, "All is Dhamma". At a beginner level, someone might understand this to be the case while thinking about his experiences. On the other hand another person may not like the idea at all but instead, while taking for real people and things, prefers to think all this to be the manifestation of God or something. Another person may have a better understanding about conditions and immediately understands in principle, that the statement applies to what ever dhamma that is being experienced in the present moment as against another, who might still think philosophically but fail because of relative weaker panna, to think in terms of the present moment. The former will whenever he considers the moment only `think' about it and not really know the characteristic of dhammas. Yet these two only understand anything conceptually but "understand" they do! And I do except that moments when panna arises may be very far apart and the rest of the time it may be just at best parroting and at worse mistaking theoretical knowledge for understanding. You are saying however in this matter, that indeed if they understand the concepts right, then it must be because they previously had direct experience. I don't think so. And it is according to this same theory that I don't believe that people of other religions could have satipatthana. --------------------------- Dan: It seems that you are confusing concept and reality here. Understanding reality is quite different from understanding what someone is referring to when they describe reality. Sukin: No I don't think I am confusing the two, though I do admit that this distinction is understood by me only `conceptually'. ;-) --------------------------- > Sukin: So elsewhere when you said that `sammaditthi arises with jhana', I > don't think this is right. Jhana practice does require deep wisdom, but > this wisdom is of quite a different kind to vipassana panna. The former > may support the latter, but does not lead to it. Dan: I believe it is just standard Theravada dogma that sammaditthi arises with jhana. If I'm wrong about this, that's fine. Sukin: If you are wrong, in which way? I think this is quite crucial to know. The panna of jhana may indeed be referred to as samma ditthi. However like samma samadhi of this corresponding level, it is quite different from the sammas of the 8FP. As I stated in my last post, the object is different and one does not lead to the other. Dan, if your reply fails to convince me, I think I will bow out of this discussion. It has conditioned much papanca and speculation which I think to be not so useful. But I will continue to read your comments to others with an open mind. Metta, Sukin. 38263 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James (Rob), Groan!! I've been trying to do that all afternoon. > What program do I need to view it? I'm happy to buy something to > see the power point version. Just have to know what and where to > get it. > Friend Christine, Sorry you are having such trouble. You don't need to buy anything though. You just need to download the PowerPoint Viewer from the Microsoft web site. It is free and doesn't take that long to download. You can find it at this link: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=7c404e8e- 5513-46c4-aa4f- 058a84a37df1&DisplayLang=en&DPC=&DarwinProductCodeDCC=&AppName=&HelpL CID=1033&path=10%2Fpptviewer%2Easp If this doesn't work, send me an e-mail, so I can get your e-mail and I will e-mail the viewer to you. buddhatrue@y... Metta, James 38264 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi, --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Sarah, > > Because my Buddha-Dhamma is grounded in the practical (experiential) > approach not theoretical approach ( theories can change to easily, but > when one has a direct experience they know exactly for themselves so the > experiential experience has the saddha that the Buddha was talking about > in it), how does one overcome the knee-jerk reactions? .... I'm wondering if you had intended this post (and the rest of it) to Phil or Htoo who were discussing knee-jerk reactions? If so, I'd rather leave it to them to respond. If it really was meant to be addressed to me, I'll thank you and take another look. Perhaps you'd kindly clarify. Thank you for all your contributions. Metta, Sarah ======= 38265 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Larry, op 13-11-2004 01:34 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm a little skeptical that rebirth linking and dying consciousnesses > actually do anything. They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga > consciousness. The real rebirth linking and dying consciousness seems to > me is the last javana consciousnesses. N: As Htoo rwote to you: N: It is right what you said:< They just seem to be the first and last bhavanga consciousness.> Let me add something. There has to be a first citta of our life and a last citta, that is all. And so long as the latent tendencies, anusayas, have not been eradicated, we are in the cycle of birth and death. The last citta of this life has to be succeeded by the first citta of the next life, without interruption. This is conditioned by way of contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya. In between the rebirth consciousness and the dying consciousnesses of one life there are all the happiness (sukha) and unhappiness dukkha) we experience. mostly with akusala cittas, but there can also be kusala citta and the development of pañña. The first javana-cittas in the life of any living being are cittas rooted in clinging. We cling to life. Through the development of insight we shall better understand the meaning of the rebirth consciousness and the dying consciousness. It will be clearer that the dying consciousnesses has to be succeeded by the rebirth consciousness of the next life. Each citta arises and falls away and is succeeded by a next citta. We know this in theory, but through insight there can be direct understanding. The arising and falling away of realities can only be realized after there is direct understanding of nama as different from rupa, direct understanding of nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Through the understanding of the dhamma appearing at the present moment, the Dependent Origination can be understood. Nina. 38266 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV, 111, and Tiika, corrected. Dear Azita, op 12-11-2004 13:37 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > Did you enjoy your stay in Pelling, Nina? N: It was a very good rest, but not suitable for day hikes, too much traffic. But I went through all my tapes and made notes. How about your tapes?? Anything to discuss? A: I have just read the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, where the Buddha is > talking to Pukkusati. According to notes on this Sutta, Pukkusati had > already achieved 4th jhana and had a strong attachment to it. (snip, snip) > > Earlier in the notes, it says that Pukkusati had already > purified the preliminary practice of the path ....what does this > mean?........and was able to attain the 4th jhana thro mindfulness of > breathing. N: The Buddha knew his disposition. He was ripe to attain the state of non-returner. The non-returner has eradicated attachment to sense objects. He had accumulated conditions for jhana and cultivated jhanas. That was his preliminary practice. He lived as an ascetical. A: Then the Buddha began to talk on insight meditation, expounding > the ultimate voidness that is the foundation for arahantship. > "That which you perceive as a person consists of 6 elements. > Ultimately ther is no person here. 'Person' is a mere concept". N: We read in the Co that Pukusati attained the state of anagaamii (non-returner) and after he had been killed by a calf he was reborn in the Pure Abode Aviha, and attained arahatship there. > > Azita: I never thought of the jhanas as being 'dangerous', but can > see in what sense they might be. If no insight into the ultimate > truth of realities, one may take jhana for self and spend literally > aeons and aeons in planes where no dhamma is able to be heard; no > ears for listening!!!!!! N: In the arupa-brahma planes there is no rupa, and in order to develop the stages of insight and attain the first one: knowing the difference between nama and rupa, one has to be in a plane where there are nama and rupa. Also before the Buddha's time people developed jhana, but the Buddha explained that also jhanacitta should be realized as non-self. Whenever we read in the suttas about jhana, we have to remember that satipatthana (or vipassana) is always implied. Calm and insight should go together, and the Visuddhimagga which quotes many suttas is no exception. The Vis. quotes: who is concentrated knows realities as they really are. When insight is more developed there are conditions for more calm, but we should not aim for this. Right understanding should be emphasized. Not everyone is able to develop jhana and it should not be made into a rule that this is a must. The Buddha had great compassion and took into account the different dispositions of individuals who were able to be led to enlightenment. Pukusati had a different disposition then the disposition of busy laypeople like us. Yes, clinging to jhana is dangerous. Jhana in itself is a high degree of kusala. Those who had accumulated the right conditions and really saw the danger of sense pleasures, could develop it. Strong mindfulness and pañña are necessary for its development. In order to abandon vitakka, thinking of the meditation subject, and reach the following stage of jhana one has to be aware of exactly this cetasika, and so on for the following cetasikas that are to be abandoned. When someone is clinging to the idea of jhana, he may believe that he attains jhana, but in reality it is the wrong jhana. Some kind of trance he takes for jhana. That is why the third application of mindfulness, seeing citta in citta, no self in citta, is important. The first citta mentioned here is citta with raga, attachment. Also jhanacitta is mentioned. All kusala cittas and akusala cittas have to be known as they are. We should not ignore akusala cittas but know them as conditioned realities. They arise naturally in our daily life, and every reality that arises naturally can be object of mindfulness and understanding. Nina. 38267 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" About vipassana and jhana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Joop, > > I wrote a long email and have just realized that I didn't answer all of your questions. So I'm writing this to complete this answer. ... Bhante Thanks for the information you gave about the 'vipassana only' opinion on the Mahasi-method you gave in your two messages (# 38214 and # 38219) on my request. .It is very helpful, I think: I don't know so quick what to do with it because I don't want to leave my vipassana teachers now and I'm not sure if (jhanic) experimenting on myself at home will be very wise. But first I will read the suttas the way you said. And I will read the articles on your website (even one in dutch) What you said about the Visuddhi Magga; well perhaps you have seen I participated in a discussion about Buddhaghosa in the Forum, not very fruitful, I think; so now I will only say: this kind of texts don't fit with my personality, I prefer to read more vivid and less scholarly ones. So again: many thanks, also on what you said about loving kindness. And much metta to you Joop 38268 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dear Christine, Have you downloaded PDFs before? Clicking on them doesn't download but gives a blank screen. You have to right click and select "Save Target as" I hope this helps / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out > what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. > Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File > (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for > some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download > Manager under control. > 38269 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:56am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dear Rob M, Good effort! Can I have permission please to post the PDF in the files section of eightfold-l list? Thanks / Antony. 38271 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:30am Subject: error message Oops, I just sent (and deleted from the archives) a dsg-housekeeping message to Jon. Pls ignore it if you receive mail in your in-box. Sarah 38272 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:08am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Some suggestions: The bright pink header in the Right Thought > section (don't know the slide number) reads "Right Understanding" > when it should read "Right Thought". It is where Right Thought is > defined as Renunciation, Good Will, and Harmlessness with bright > pink arrows (just gotta love those graphics! ;-). ===== When I wrote it, I had intended it to be Right Understanding as the question was, "What types of thoughts arise naturally from Right Understanding?". However, after reading your message, I think that I will change it to "Right Thought". ===== > > You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No Adultery". > I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't what > the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting > adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you are > trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because they > are still under the protection of their parents, but you should say > it that way. Honesty is important. ===== I had a real hard time with that one. I imagined some twelve-year old kid who had led a very sheltered life (not too many street-wise boys would shave their heads and live like a monk for a week) in the audience. I really didn't want some parent yelling at me, asking me what kinds of ideas I had put into their child's head. The situation would be even worse for little girls (about a third of the novitiates are girls; they don't shave their heads). I think what I will do is to delete the reference to premarital sex and just leave in "No Adultery" (technically factual, but not 100% complete). I plan to skip over this point really quickly. ===== > > And the stupa analogy at the end is very confusing. I believe that > you are trying to get into advanced dhamma with those slides and > there hasn't been enough lead in. You may leave the kids confused > at the end and then their confidence in what they just learned will > be lessened. Just a suggestion. ===== Actually, what I am presenting is not an analogy, but rather the actual symbolic meaning behind Stupa construction. I wanted to make the point that the Wisdom path factors come before the Sila factors and after the Concentration factors. To emphasize the point, perhaps I will also show it as spokes of a wheel (two Wisdom spokes before the three Discipline spokes and after the three Concentration spokes). ===== > > Overall, a very excellent job! I am glad that I had the opportunity > to help you some with it. ===== As I said, I think that we make an excellent team! Metta, Rob M :-) 38273 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Anthony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > Can I have permission please to post the PDF in the files section of > eightfold-l list? I would be honoured to have it posted there. At the moment, it is still "work in progress"; I will upload the final version on Wednesday. Metta, Rob M :-) 38274 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Hello all > There are many different kinds of feeling and therefore we > should not imagine that it is easy to recognize feelings. But would you agree that as cetasikas go, feelings are the ones that we are most likely to recognize? > When we study the Abhidhamma we realize better what we do not know. And knowing what we don't know is very liberating. It points at processes that our beyond control of self. > It is difficult to distinguish painful bodily feeling from rúpa, or from > domanassa. When we have pain, we 'feel' that something is hurting > and we may think that it is easy to discern bodily painful feeling. > However, we may not be able to distinguish the painful feeling > which is nåma from the rúpa which is impinging on the body-sense. Hmm. I don't get this yet. "Rupa is impinging on the body-sense." Let's say a thorn sticking in my toe. There is rupa (the thorn) and nama (the painful feeling.) No, I must say I can't imagine how it would be possible in this case to be aware of the rupa without the painful feeling. Does the painful feeling kind of drown out sense of the rupa? Is the rupa sensed as hardness, or temperature? Any other way? If it is visible object, the rupa (visible object) can be seen, is seen, before feeling arises from it. Is a thorn felt by body sense in some way before the painful feeling arises? I'm confused. There is the simile of the cotton puff on the anvil. In the case of the other 5 sense doors, it is like a cotton puff landing on a cotton puff. But in the case of body sense, it is like a hammer coming down on the cotton puff, because.... ....just now Naomi came in and wanted to talk about something. I told her I was trying to figure out something difficult. About what? About body sense. She put her hands on my arms, fingers pressing down, and said "body sense." I said "make it painful!" and she pinched a bit. And then she bit my ear!!!! Well, we had a laugh, but I don't think it helped much. It *was* easier to be aware of her fingers as hardness when she was pushing than it was when she was pinching. Then the pain (don't worry, just slight) dominated my attention. And then, though she hasn't studied Abhidhamma, she said "don't forget heat!" And I said "it's temperature!" And she pressed a soft part of her body against me and said "soft" And I said "no, it's hardness!" Anyways, I am still confused. It's natural to be confused about this sort of thing. Metta, Phil 38275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: Khanti is viriya (was Re: [dsg] India reflections) Dear Phil --- plnao wrote: Welcome back, Jon. Jon: Thanks, Phil. Good to be back. Phil: I enjoyed reading your post with its helpful reminders. I'll just take up one point and trust that others will bring up different points >khanti (patience) is the mental factor viriya (energy, effort) about which >there is so much said on this list. When I heard this I was reminded that >effort has 4 aspects (described as the 4 padhaanas) including the >forbearing from akusala that has not arisen and the non-persisting of >akusala that has risen, and I see a connection here. This is very interesting to me because I am keen on both the padhanas and the Perfections. This afternoon, I read the AN IV 14 description of the padhaana of abandoning akusala that has arisen: "There is a the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen (in him.) He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence...." Same for ill-will, etc. I have always wondered about the rather muscular language used in this translation. (And I guess in the original as well.) I assume that there is a progression from "does not acquiesce" to "wipes it out of existence" depending on the accumulations of the monk in question, or the degree of the akusala, or something. Jon: The description of the 4 padhaanas is another instance of a teaching about dhammas being given in conventional language appropriate to the (advanced) level of understanding of the listener. (thus giving rise to the idea of some of an *apparent* difference between the suttas and the abhidhamma -- even more so here than in the case of phassa that has been so much discussed on the list of late). As I understand it, when right effort arises there is at that moment no akusala, and so for that instant any already/previously arisen akusala has been abandoned, and any akusala that might otherwise arise (i.e. unarisen akusala) does not. The problem with ascribing (as some do) a conventional meaning to effort in arousing kusala where there is presently none is that it would imply either (a) that conventional effort that is akusala may support the arising of kusala, or (b) that the conventional effort itself is kusala which would mean that kusala can be made to arise by determining it to be so. Neither of these alternatives would be consistent with what is said elsewhere in the teachings, especially the teaching on anicca-dukkha-anatta. Phil: It seems to me that it would be preferable to be patient with the akusala, see it for what it is (not-self) and let it fall away on its own, as all cittas do. Be patient, but still having energy to investigate it without acquiescing to it, without welcoming it. Patient, energetic investigation of the dhamma involved. Patience not to flee from akusala into more akusala (For example, not fleeing from an unpleasant situation by escaping into fantasies about pleasures to come.) Patiently examining the akusala dhammas with right energy, seeing them as annica, anatta and dukkha to the degree that we are capable of. Jon: We should be wary of any idea creeping in that akusala in particular needs to be the object of awareness because it needs to be dealt with and awareness is a means of achieving that. The aim is just the better understanding of dhammas, meaning of course any presently arisen dhamma. We are all inclined to see ‘our akusala’ as the enemy, but this is just another instance of the subtlety of wrong view, as I see it. Phil: And then if they persist, there would be need for a more rigorous approach. A less patient approach. I have trouble seeing "wipes it out of existence" as patience! Jon: The more persistent the kilesa, the more patience is needed! Regards Jon 38276 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Larry, and all > You raise an interesting question: what is the difference between > detachment (alobha) and insight (pa~n~na). It's really interesting, isn't it? These days it seems to me that yoniso manasikaara is coming up all the time in suttas that I respond to. It seems to me from what I'm understanding these days that it is at the arising of manasikaara that there is the pivotal moment. When we have wise attention to the attractive object, we do not get swept away in lobha proliferation (can that be said) and if there is wise attention to the unpleasant object, we do not get swept away in dosa cittas. It is yoniko manasikaara that stops proliferation, and panna that... I see in CMA that "the proximate cause is wise attention." Is yoniso manasikaara like the hand that picks up an object and panna the gaze that sees into what the object is? And sati the not-forgetting that this is going on? And alobha results when yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati see into a moment and give rise to non-proliferation? Is detachment non-proliferation? There are so many suttas I come across these days that get at the same thing....the broken gong....the mind doesn't leap up....the mind is resilient to sights....the monk stops at seeing...and others, all getting at that moment when proliferation doesn't happen. I have learned that the flavour of Abhidhamma is anatta. It feels to me these days that the flavour of the Suttanta is non-proliferation! Perhaps we all have accumulations that lead us to tune into differents aspects of the Suttanta. >First, to address a > possible misconception, there can be the case where one can regard an > object with the idea "this is not me because I am something else". > For example, I can look at an unpleasant feeling with the idea I am > not this feeling because I am the unfeeling but intelligent > consciousness looking at the feeling. There is obviously > misunderstanding here. Well said. I can imagine having the idea you describe here. Is that "intelligent consciousness" panna? No. But I can relate to having thought that. Walking around when I was in a clear, calm state of mind, and feeling rather godlike about it, though I thought about anatta. Imagining that to be detachment when it was obviously self at work, feeling pleased about being so divinely detached. > True detachment would simply regard the feeling without any > additional baggage. I guess we can only speculate about what true detachment would be like. Maybe it wouldn't regard the feeling at all? Arahats have vipaka, but they do not create new kamma in response to that. Do they regard feelings or are their processes so refined that feelings don't arise. I know there is painful body sense for them, as vipaka, but the second dart, the mental consideration, doesn't happen, right? So the lack of "additional baggage" would be the lack of mental door processes following vipaka? The "broken gong" that doesn't ring in response to stimulus, the mind that doesn't proliferate? > and what I called non-relational insight is one of superficiality and > depth. Insight is a compulsion* to thoroughly investigate. It wants > to get at the real feeling in the feeling, this one right now. It > wants to know it for what it is, thoroughly and completely as it is. > While detachment is not particularly interested. "The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." Willing to let it go. Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not*proliferate. But that is incorrect speculation, because as you say detachment is alobha, and alobha is a universal sobhana cetasika that arises with all wholesome cittas. It is not a stage in a process. Thanks for letting me think out loud here. >There is clearly a > difference in experience here, but the most important aspect of this > is that insight is able to dismantle reactive habits (accumulations) As above, it seems to me that it is yoniso manasikaara that is more immediately effective in this sense. When there is wise attention to an unpleasant object, for example, we do not accumulate more dosa as a result of it. But I am only just beginning to understand what yoniso mansaikaara is. I look forward to the chapter about it in "Cetasikas." > and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise > again. Would this only be after sotapanna or further stages of enlightenment? >Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated > it can become a wholesome habit. Is "habit" synonymous with "accumulation?" > ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. > What do you think? I am certainly becoming aware of the way my mind works in a compulsive way. Compulsive gets at a lack of controlling self, so it sounds like it could be a helpful concept to experiment with. Compelled by what? natural decisive support and other conditions? Metta, Phil 38277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi, Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > And welcome back. When you wrote: > ... > "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how > infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something > that > is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." > > were you referring to sammaadi.t.thi in the sense exclusively either of > satipa.t.thaana or of maggacitta with only paramattha dhammas as > objects? Thanks, Mike. Good to be back. I would include intellectual right understanding also. The point I was trying to make is that satipatthana is the outcome of right consideration and reflection only and cannot be the outcome of a some approximation to that. In other words, it is not how deeply things are understood at the present moment that matters, but the absence of wrong view/understanding. Cheers Jon 38278 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] error message Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/04 5:31:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Oops, > > I just sent (and deleted from the archives) a dsg-housekeeping message to > Jon. > > Pls ignore it if you receive mail in your in-box. > > Sarah > =========================== Oh, geez! And here I studied it for a while, couldn't "get it" and thus decided it was "deep" and concluded it was likely an excerpt from a subcommentary of a commentary on a lesser known book of Abhidhamma! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38279 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and James) - In a message dated 11/14/04 6:08:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > > >You defined sexual misconduct as "No Premarital Sex /No > Adultery". > >I seriously question the "No Premarital Sex" because that isn't > what > >the Buddha defined as sexual misconduct. Sex between consenting > >adults, even when unmarried, is acceptable. I suspect that you > are > >trying to tell them that teenagers shouldn't have sex, because > they > >are still under the protection of their parents, but you should > say > >it that way. Honesty is important. > > ===== > > I had a real hard time with that one. I imagined some twelve-year > old kid who had led a very sheltered life (not too many street-wise > boys would shave their heads and live like a monk for a week) in the > audience. I really didn't want some parent yelling at me, asking me > what kinds of ideas I had put into their child's head. The situation > would be even worse for little girls (about a third of the > novitiates are girls; they don't shave their heads). I think what I > will do is to delete the reference to premarital sex and just leave > in "No Adultery" (technically factual, but not 100% complete). I > plan to skip over this point really quickly. > > ============================ How about something like "Wise abstention from illegal, hurtful, or inappropriate physical relationships"? (A bit vague, but with the advantage of a degree of completeness.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 Hi Larry, just butting in. op 13-11-2004 20:29 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Htoo: "So it is very clear > that 'next life patisandhi citta' DOES the job of linking of previous > life cuti citta and next life 1st bhavanga citta. That is why it is > called patisandhi citta." L: This makes sense. Perhaps we could say cuti citta does the job of not > continuing. N: But the last citta is succeeded by the next one (unless one is an arahat), the rebirth-consciousness. It merely is the last citta of a lifespan, no other job. L:Ordinarily this wouldn't seem like a job, but there is > something about bhavanga cittas that otherwise makes them continue. > This is part of their function, if not condition. N: Yes, bhavanga-cittas have as their function to keep the continuity in a lifespan. They arise in between processes. Otherwise we could not stay alive. L: Btw, any thoughts on what is the difference between function and > condition? They both continue. N: We have to think of 24 classes of conditions, this is most complex. Function is just the task of a particular citta. There are fourteen functions, as we have seen. recap: What function a particular citta performs is also conditioned. Take seeing: eye-door adverting-consciousness is its proximate cause. It is dependent on eye-base and visible object. When the right conditions are present, only then, it can perform its function of seeing. Take akusala javanacittas with lobha: these arise because of accumulated lobha, the latent tendency of lobha that is present in each citta and accumulated from moment to moment. It conditions the arising of lobha-mula-citta by way of pakatuppanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence condition. Thus lobha-mula-citta performd the function of javana in the process of cittas. Nina. 38281 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Red hat revisited , Lodewijk's answer. Hello Phil, op 13-11-2004 22:54 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: (snip, snip, snip)... but there is most definitely an > interest in > self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. Never the > desire > to be liberated from samsara, to reach Nibbana. Never a thought of Nibbana, > never > a single aspiration towards Nibanna. I want more experience of the senses, > more rebirth > in the human realm, albeit it in a more refined way. > That is still hiding behind all my talk of eradicating > defilements. N: quite so. I am quite the same. That is what Lodewijk meant by the perfection of truthfulness: not pretending to be what one is not up to yet. Wisdom developed in satipatthana will lead to detachment, but that is a long process. It may seem to work for a while to overreach, but in fact sooner or later one will find out that this is not the way. I believe that a person who wants to cultivate jhana should scrutinize himself in all sincerity: is he really prepared to as the Vis. states, thus, to live practically as a monk? We should be truthful. Music is part of my life, I do not want to give it up. What we can notice is that defilements cause us trouble and that it is beneficial to develop the way leading to their eradication. Like Lodewijk, I want to know the truth about myself. I want to know my defilements, also the subtle, hidden ones, such as clinging to the idea of my kusala, my metta. BTW Lodewijk did not mean to say that there is no metta in other religions, but, metta as a perfection is purified from the idea of my metta, and as a perfection there is no expectation of anything in return. The perfections are developed along with satipatthana. We do our best to give my father the gift of music, but when he is not in the mood he says that he does not like it. All right, but it is the kusala citta that gives, no expectation. PH:.... At least I know that > I don't really understand the First Noble Truth yet. That's progress. N: It is good to know what we do not know. We can only understand intellectually that what falls away immediately is not a refuge or worth clinging to. But, first the stage of insight that realizes the impermanence of dhammas has to be reached. Otherwise we have no notion of what dukkha really is, it is merely a word for us. >>N: Develop it, it will grow by its >> own conditions. If we ask: how, how, it shows our clinging and this > hinders. > > Phil: This is like the carpenter's adze(?) handle, isn't it? N: : Yes, we do not notice its wearing away Ph: > p.s I will ask one now. A few months ago you made mention of a term that > refers to > postponing one's understanding (my paraphrase) about not pressing too hard > to find answers when > the understanding hasn't arisen yet. It was in the context of something that > is taught > to monks within the Vinaya (sp?) or the commentary on it. Does that ring a > bell? N: I can't remember. Nina. 38282 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Dhamma Greetings Rob, When I was in Asia I did many novitiate programs with teens. I found that they were really interested in the wrong sexual activity precept. I also found that they were very open to what the no sex while under the care of their parents really meant. I explained it this way. Any sexual activity that causes hurtful feelings to arise in anyone (partners, parents, etc) isn't a good thing. If one has sexual activity with someone who is in the care of their parents would those parents be happy about it? Of course not! So this would cause a sense of guilt and remorse to arise in both you and the partner you had the sexual activity with, this is Dukkha. And this guilty feeling will cloud the way you see the world, plus it can cause you to tell lies, which brakes another percept. So it is best not to have sexual activity until you are not in the care of your parents. The idea of not causing anger to arise in your parents or another families parents is a good thing, isn't it? Following this precept leads one to a happier life. Hope this is helpful. By the way what country are you in? I did most of my work with the Chinese kids in Malaysia and worked with Rev. Malinda at the Brickfields temple in Kuala Lumpur. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38283 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, Here are a few comments. Maybe Nina will say something too, particularly about yoniso manasikaara and how it relates in an empty relationship to sati and pa~n~na. [I've snipped for easier reading] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Is yoniso manasikaara like the hand that picks up an object and > panna the gaze that sees into what the object is? And sati the > not-forgetting that this is going on? > > And alobha results when yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati > see into a moment and give rise to non-proliferation? > Is detachment non-proliferation? L: I usually conceptualize sati as coming first in the sense of remembering the dhamma, before wise attention or insight. But I agree that detachment is nonproliferation insofar as desire (lobha) is the engine that drives proliferation of desire with its inevitable disappointment. > I guess we can only speculate about what true detachment would > be like. Maybe it wouldn't regard the feeling at all? Arahats have > vipaka, but they do not create new kamma in response to that. > Do they regard feelings or are their processes so refined that > feelings don't arise. I know there is painful body sense for them, > as vipaka, but the second dart, the mental consideration, doesn't > happen, right? > So the lack of "additional baggage" would be the lack of mental door > processes following vipaka? L: Arahants have functional javana cittas which are the same as kusala javanas but they don't "compel" kamma results. These arise with pleasant and neutral feelings. They also experience pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling and of course all the neutral feelings. By "additional baggage" I meant mental proliferation (papa~nca), as you said. But kamma result and the world continue so there isn't exactly a stop, even in jhana. > "The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have > noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because > I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. > So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real > feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the > concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? L: Yes. That seems to be the Abhidhamma idea, though I'm still a little skeptical about it as a "way". Maybe I'm misunderstanding. > > and, if it is penetrating enough, similar reactions will not arise > > again. > > Would this only be after sotapanna or further stages of enlightenment? L: No. I don't think so. It could be simply learning, like your experience on the train with the man apparently making the disagreeable sounds. > > >Detachment, by itself, cannot do this, but if it is repeated > > it can become a wholesome habit. > > Is "habit" synonymous with "accumulation?" L: That's how I see it, kind of like making a cognitive path. The idea of accumulating or adding together seems to contradict impermanence. We will discuss this more when we get to the "formations aggregate" in the Visuddhimagga. There is a very troublesome word there: "agglomeration". Right now I'm leaning toward interpreting this as "kamma proliferation". > > ps: I'm experimenting with understanding sankhara as compulsions. > > What do you think? > > I am certainly becoming aware of the way my mind works in a compulsive way. > Compulsive gets at a lack of controlling self, so it sounds like it could be > a helpful concept > to experiment with. Compelled by what? natural decisive support and other > conditions? > > Metta, > Phil L: Not so much compelled _by_ as compelled _to_. We could say compulsions (sankhara) arise because of habits, they compel kamma result, and are themselves habit forming. Just a thought. Larry 38284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:35am Subject: Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hello Anthony, Yes I have downloaded PDF's before. The problem seems to be something else. I downloaded both the msorun.exe (powerpoint viewer James gave the link for, and Rob's powerpoint file, onto my desktop and then things didn't go further. It may be that there is a deeper problem with my computer. In the mean time, I am very grateful to James for patiently persevering with the computer and I. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > Have you downloaded PDFs before? > > Clicking on them doesn't download but gives a blank screen. > > You have to right click and select "Save Target as" > > I hope this helps / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > So far I've got to the Support area of Acrobat to try to find out > > what to do when there is an Error "The download cannot continue. > > Error parsing voucher" occurs when you double-click a PDF File > > (Windows). I'll persevere with what they are suggesting - but for > > some reason they think I'll be able to keep the Adobe Download > > Manager under control. > > 38285 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings Phil, I hope you don't mind my butting in on this conversation, but I have seen some things that may be needed to looked at more deeply. When you said, ""The compulsion to thoroughly investigate" is something that I have noticed Howard and you and others have. I appreciate it because I don't have it myself. I seem so happy to let things fall easily. So I would say that the above is too complex again. "The real feeling in the feeling." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." Willing to let it go. Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not* proliferate. *Bhante V* I have some questions, If I may. When you said that 'The compulsion to investigate' The question is to investigate what? And because I come from an experiential background of meditation my answer would be - to investigate "HOW" the process of arising phenomena arise and "HOW" they disappear. The way that this is done is by watching intently "HOW" these phenomena arise and when this is done with clear comprehension one can see that there is a definite process that takes place. That process is the arising of dependent origination. It seems to me that everything that does arise takes place in exactly the same way (when seen through the eyes of Dependent Arising). So, when you say "I seem so happy to let things fall easily." What you are saying is that you are not interested enough to see "HOW" this process actually works. And that is fine, no problem, we do the things that interest us the most. (This is not a criticizes of you or the way you do things, just an observation). To let things "fall easily" might be another way of getting caught in the False Belief of a self, which leads to more dukkha. When you say ." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly interested." *Bhante V* When one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and clinging arise. The clinging being all of the thoughts about the feeling and the want to control the feeling with one's thoughts. So Dukkha has already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen it is then easier to let go. When you say "Well, I am still wondering about detachment being a moment in the citta process, the moment that the mind *does not* proliferate." *Bhante V* The thinking about a feeling is the trap that we all fall into, according to the seeing of the five aggregates feeling is one thing and the thinking about the feeling (sankhara) is another thing. This is "HOW" the knee-jerk reaction takes place. Every time one tries to think the feeling away is where the dukkha really happens. So when one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and clinging arise in their mind. The "clinging", being all of the thoughts about the feeling. So Dukkha has already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen it is then easier to let go and this is "HOW" detachment arises. What is detachment? What does it really mean? To me detachment arises when one has seen the tightness or tension arise in their mind and body (because of craving) they then relax and let go of it. When this happens one's mind becomes clear and alert -without any thoughts (clinging) in it, at that time- The detachment is that moment of brief relief where there is no dukkha. In that moment there is an unbelievable clarity of seeing the present moment for what it is. IE. seeing the true nature of that moment. The clear moment after letting go of the clinging and craving is where the 'non-proliferation' takes place. The whole trick to having a clear fluid awareness (yoniso manasikaara) of the present moment is being able to see for yourself the impersonal process of dependent origination. The reason that I say this is because when D.O. is seen as a cause and effect process there is no room for even the slightest hint of a person or self (atta). Any ideas about there being a personal self are completely nonexistent. And seeing in this way shows one that everything is a part of a process that is continually arising and passing away (anicca). *Bhante V* The problem with understanding Dhammanupassana (in the Satipatthana Sutta) in the first section on what to do when a hindrance arises (this means any thinking about something that has arisen and passed away or restlessness) If you take a close look at what the Buddha said to do when a hindrance arises, it may be helpful -because I used the hindrance of restlessness above I will use that as the part in this sutta. It says: "Here, there being restlessness in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is restlessness in me'; or there being no restlessness in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no restlessness in me'; and he also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen restlessness, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen restlessness, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of abandoned restlessness." OK. Now what does all of this mean? The meditator or aware person knows when they are restless, that's easy enough to understand, right? Next how does the person abandon the arisen restlessness? They see that mind has a feeling of restlessness in it and they let it go (this is a tricky way of saying that a person lets it be there without getting involved with it any more, this is done by not paying attention to it any more and relaxing the tightness or tension caused by the being involved and taking it personally [atta], now the person sees the feeling has a tight mental fist wrapped around it [this is the attachment to it and the false ideas that it is theirs personally- atta] so they let it go and relax again [both the body and mind] then they softly redirect their mind back to a meditation object ie, breath and relaxing on the in breath and relaxing on the out breath or relaxing and wishing all beings happiness and peace. This is even done in ones daily activities!). This is "HOW" ones abandons the arisen hindrance of restlessness. And how does the person understand how there comes to be the abandoned unarisen restlessness? By being very clear and aware of how this process of dependent origination actually works and letting go of the craving (tightness or tension in one's mind and body -especially the subtle tightness in the head- when it arises). This is the practice of Right Effort- that is the noticing of a hindrance, the letting it go as shown above, the bringing up of a wholesome meditation object ie. the breath, or wishing happiness and peace to all beings and the staying with that wholesome (kusala) object. I hope this is helpful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:04pm Subject: different doorways, to Howard. Hi Howard, In India Sarah gave me a Q, of yours about a harsh sound hurting the ear and a bright light hurting the eyes. You asked for the Abhidhammic take, adding that this was discussed before. Yes, but I am not satified with my answer before. I try again. When there is pain, there is always the impingement of tangible object on the bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, also right in the eye and in the ear. The earbase or earsense can only be impinged on by sound, not by tangible object. The eyesense or eyebase can only be impinged on by visible object. Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling and so is seeing. Bodysense can be accompanied by painful feeling or by pleasant bodily feeling as you remarked. When we say, harsh sound hurts the ear, we talk in a conventional, general way. When we are precise, there are body-contact and ear-contact at different moments. They condition different feelings. These are all momentary realities. Hearing has nothing to do with body-consciousness, they arise because of different conditions and have different objects. This is the way to really understand anatta, so that anatta is not just a term we repeat. Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very rapidly is really helpful. Nina. 38287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 48 - Feeling/Vedana (u) Hello Phil, op 14-11-2004 12:19 schreef plnao op plnao@j... > > Hmm. I don't get this yet. "Rupa is impinging on the body-sense." > Let's say a thorn sticking in my toe. There is rupa (the thorn) and > nama (the painful feeling.) No, I must say I can't imagine how it would > be possible in this case to be aware of the rupa without the painful > feeling. > Does the painful feeling kind of drown out sense of the rupa? > Is the rupa sensed as hardness, or temperature? Any other way? > If it is visible object, the rupa (visible object) can be seen, is seen, > before feeling arises > from it. Is a thorn felt by body sense in some way before the painful > feeling arises? N: No. Painful feeling accompanies the bodysense. See how difficult to entangle nama and rupa! We cannot by thinking. Only when sati and pañña arise. There can be awareness of only one nama or rupa at a time. PH: ....just now Naomi came in and wanted to talk about something. I told her > I was trying to figure out something difficult. About what? About body > sense. > She put her hands on my arms, fingers pressing down, and said "body sense." > I said "make it painful!" and she pinched a bit. And then she bit my ear!!!! N: Naomi understood quickly, without much ado. PH: Well, we had a laugh, but I don't think it helped much. It *was* easier to > be aware of her fingers as hardness when she was pushing than it was when > she was pinching. Then the pain (don't worry, just slight) dominated my > attention. N: Tangible object is hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. Ph: And then, though she hasn't studied Abhidhamma, she said "don't forget > heat!" > And I said "it's temperature!" > And she pressed a soft part of her body against me and said "soft" > And I said "no, it's hardness!" N: When thinking about it we only know concepts. Awareness can arise unexpectedly. We do not have to name anything. It does not matter whether tangible object is hard or soft. It can also be resilience (motion). Or, when a wound irritates, the element of heat may appear. But now you see that we confuse easily nama and rupa and that it is not easy to know exactly the characteristic of feeling which is nama. Again, the first stage of insight, knowing the difference between nama and rupa, has to be realized first of all. But a beginning can be made. Nina. 38288 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Rob, > > When I was in Asia I did many novitiate programs with teens. I found > that they were really interested in the wrong sexual activity precept. I > also found that they were very open to what the no sex while under the > care of their parents really meant. I explained it this way. > > Any sexual activity that causes hurtful feelings to arise in anyone > (partners, parents, etc) isn't a good thing. If one has sexual activity > with someone who is in the care of their parents would those parents be > happy about it? Of course not! So this would cause a sense of guilt and > remorse to arise in both you and the partner you had the sexual activity > with, this is Dukkha. And this guilty feeling will cloud the way you see > the world, plus it can cause you to tell lies, which brakes another > percept. So it is best not to have sexual activity until you are not in > the care of your parents. > > The idea of not causing anger to arise in your parents or another > families parents is a good thing, isn't it? Following this precept leads > one to a happier life. > > Hope this is helpful. By the way what country are you in? I did most of > my work with the Chinese kids in Malaysia and worked with Rev. Malinda at > the Brickfields temple in Kuala Lumpur. What a coincidence! I live in Kuala Lumpur and teach a Sunday morning Abhidhamma class at Brickfields! The Novitiate programme at Brickfields is coming up in a couple of weeks and is aimed at an older audience. The Novitiate programme that I will be speaking at tomorrow is conducted at Sentul Temple (the other Sri Lankan Vihara in Kuala Lumpur). The Novitiate programme at Sentul Temple is aimed at a much younger audience 12 - 18 years old, with most of the crowd closer to 12 than to 18. I very much like your approach to explaining sexual misconduct. The subject has come up a few times in my Abhidhamma class and has always generated some interested discussion. The challenge that I am facing is the range of age of the audience. The younger ones still see things mainly in black-and-white, while the middle range of the audience are starting to see shades of grey. I am basing this statement on my observations on my own son (12 and 14 years old). My thinking is influenced by the Abhaya Sutta (MN58), in which the Buddha outlined the criteria for deciding what to say. Not only must right speech be factual and beneficial (connected to the holy life / Nibbana), one must apply wisdom to choose the correct time to speak. I think that I will leave my PowerPoint slide as "No Adultery" and skip over the point quickly. With Great Respect, Rob M :-) 38289 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ============================ > How about something like "Wise abstention from illegal, hurtful, or > inappropriate physical relationships"? (A bit vague, but with the advantage of a > degree of completeness.) > Thanks, I could well use that if questioned on the point (depending on the age of the questioner). Metta, Rob M :-) 38290 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:11pm Subject: India.......[Nina] Dear Nina, and other Dhamma friends, Thank you Nina, for your post on Pukkusati, most helpful. You asked about my tapes.... some turned out OK, others I can barely hear and others...blank...I will take Jon's advice for next time and bring some head phones. What I can hear is most beneficial. During one of our many discussions, T.A. Sujin spoke about the teachings of Buddha being according to his understanding. When we read the Tipitika, we should remember that these are words brought down by arahats, enlightened beings who fully understood the words of Buddha. T.A. Sujin encouraged us not to be careless and think that its very easy; as we read we should know whether its our own understanding or not yet. She stressed the importance of this. Buddha did not develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities. He had to use terms to define and point out the characteristics of reality. For those who are not careless, they will develop gradually until its truly their own understanding e.g. visible object - is it now one's own understanding that its just that that can be seen. Are we truthful with ourselves or do we fool ourselves that we have 'reached a certain stage' when we only 'think' we have? Can we honestly say we know seeing from visibe object? I know I can't. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38291 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens (v2) Hi All, I have uploaded into the files section an updated PowerPoint and Acrobat file reflecting the numerous changes thus far. Additional feedback welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) 38292 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Hi Htoo, I found this a particularly useful post. Knowing the difference between pa.n.natti dhamma and parmattha dhamma as aaramma.na seems to me to be crucial to understanding the difference between jhaana and vipassanaa bhavana. Can sammaadi.t.thi ever take pa.n.natti as aaramma.na? Or does 'sammaadi.t.thi' refer exclusively to satipa.t.thaana or maggacitta, which can only take paramattha dhammas as aaramma.na? Thanks, mike 38293 From: Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/14/04 3:06:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > In India Sarah gave me a Q, of yours about a harsh sound hurting the ear and > a bright light hurting the eyes. You asked for the Abhidhammic take, adding > that this was discussed before. Yes, but I am not satified with my answer > before. I try again. > When there is pain, there is always the impingement of tangible object on > the bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, also right in the eye and > in the ear. The earbase or earsense can only be impinged on by sound, not by > tangible object. The eyesense or eyebase can only be impinged on by visible > object. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can *lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely bright light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), and that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, there results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I agree that it is the *body* contact that is painful. ------------------------------------------ > Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling and so is seeing. Bodysense > can be accompanied by painful feeling or by pleasant bodily feeling as you > remarked. > When we say, harsh sound hurts the ear, we talk in a conventional, general > way. When we are precise, there are body-contact and ear-contact at > different moments. They condition different feelings. These are all > momentary realities. Hearing has nothing to do with body-consciousness, they > arise because of different conditions and have different objects. This is > the way to really understand anatta, so that anatta is not just a term we > repeat. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and in fact probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door contact that is subtle. --------------------------------------- > Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is > why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. > Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): > Inasmuch that it is not easy to give an illustration for the mind's quick > change.> > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. ------------------------------------------- > We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep > meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very > rapidly is really helpful. > Nina. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38295 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:28pm Subject: Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi All, Page 172 of Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma states: Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (anittha), the moderately desirable (ittha, also called itthamajjhatta, desirable-neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati- ittha). When the desirable object is thus subdivided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable". The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. Any comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 38296 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 49 - Feeling/Vedana (v) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** When hardness impinges on the body-sense, the kåya-viññåùa cognizes the hardness and the accompanying feeling experiences the ‘taste’ of the hardness. Time and again vipåkacittas arise which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the bodysense. There are hardness or softness, heat or cold impinging on the bodysense, no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down. There is the experience of hardness or softness time and again when we touch things or take hold of them, but we are so absorbed in what we want to get or want to do that we are unaware of the different experiences through the senses. The feeling which is vipåka is different from feeling which is associated with attachment or aversion. Pleasant bodily feeling which is vipåka is not associated with attachment, and painful bodily feeling is not associated with aversion. At the moment of pleasant bodily feeling there is no attachment to the object; pleasant bodily feeling merely experiences the pleasant object. At the moment of painful bodily feeling there is no dislike of the object; painful bodily feeling merely experiences the unpleasant object. After the vipåkacittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects have fallen away, akusala cittas which are rooted in lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance) are bound to arise. Akusala cittas arise very often, because we have accumulated many defilements. On the other hand, when there are conditions for ‘wise attention’ (1) to the object, kusala cittas arise instead of akusala cittas. There may be, for example, after the experience of tangible object, mindfulness of nåma or rúpa. *** (1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 9 ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38297 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Bhavanga Citta of the Buddha Hi Htoo, I am reviewing some of your old posts as I rush to edit my book and prepare it for publication. In one of your posts, you wrote, "remember the bhavanga citta of the Buddha". Obviously, it had three roots. Can I assume it was unprompted and with neutral feeling? Where is this mentioned in the texts / commentaries? Metta, Rob M :-) 38298 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi RobM & James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Wow! Now that is one razzle dazzle presentation! I am impressed by > your Power Point skills! It is very professional and entertaining > (Christine, you just have to see it! ;-)). I especially like how > you handled the path factor of mindfulness. Your example of the > rose is much better than my silly gum ball analogy! ;-) And the > picture of the baby appearing to meditate is very cute! …. S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at mindfulness. I thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the definitions of the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the powerpoint yest, but can’t access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed to be back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than realities. Rob, when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is experienced? Yes the rose was cool, but I couldn’t see the point of the baby – Satipatthana is not the development of the kind of movements that a baby, children and those who haven’t heard the Buddha’s teachings understand. Unlike James, I didn’t think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be aware of whatever appears or ‘pops out’ without any selection. Just as we cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. Whether ‘sensations from the body’ (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, pressure), feelings, mental states or the ‘various phenomena (dhammas)’, (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone’s ability to force ‘out’. And as you said James: “Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …” Metta, Sarah ======= 38299 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at mindfulness. I > thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the definitions of > the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the powerpoint yest, > but can't access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed to be > back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than realities. Rob, > when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is experienced? ===== The novitiates are handed some material when they start the programme. One of the pages that they are given is an extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path" which defines "Right Mindfulness" according to the structure of objects as listed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I also checked Ledi Sayadaw's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path and its Factors Explained" and found that he followed the same structure. This is also how the Buddha described Right Mindfulness in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (DN22). This is the structure that I followed in the presentation when selecting the objects of sati. BTW, I just checked the order from the Sutta and updated the presentation (walking, standing, sitting, lying down). ===== > > Yes the rose was cool, but I couldn't see the point of the baby – > Satipatthana is not the development of the kind of movements that a baby, > children and those who haven't heard the Buddha's teachings understand. ===== The baby was simply a really cute picture. I will make sure that I mention that babies don't meditate :-) ===== > > Unlike James, I didn't think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it > worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by > conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be > aware of whatever appears or `pops out' without any selection. Just as we > cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. > Whether `sensations from the body' (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, > pressure), feelings, mental states or the `various phenomena (dhammas)', > (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone's ability to > force `out'. > > And as you said James: > "Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness > can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …" ===== I agree that the gum ball image holds some important Dhamma. I will add it in. Thanks! The dhamma may be a bit too deep for most of the audience, but it may make an impression on some. Metta, Rob M :-) 38300 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > > S: Penetrative insight into what reality? > > Gosh, pick one. Let's say, "dukkha as one of the tilakkhana." …. S: Can there be awareness of just ‘dukkha’ or does it have to be the ‘dukkha of a reality’ would you say? If it’s the latter, how does that awareness develop? …. <…> > There's a clear and stark distinction between insight into reality > and the language with which one describes it. Buddha's words are in > no sense the "one path", but they do describe the one path well. > A description of a deep, penetrating, mundane insight that could well > be made by someone who hadn't heard a whisper of Buddha's teachings > might run like this: "Ultimately, pleasure does not lead to > happiness." …. S: We agree that the words are not the path. No one has ever suggested this. The point is that the ‘someone’ who hasn’t heard a whisper of Buddha’s teachings deeply believes there is Someone when they have such insights or reflections. It is not the deep understanding of realities as anatta. …. >A more Buddhist description might run like this: "Dukkha > is characteristic of vedana." If someone who has never heard Buddha's > words doesn't understand what meaning you attach to them or is unable > to use them fluently in conversation, it is no indication whatsoever > that they have zero insight into reality. Instead, it is simply > testimony that they are not familiar with his words. …. S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it’s not the language or the word ‘vedana’ that is of any importance, but the understanding that arises having heard about these realities that counts. …. <…> <…> > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. … S: You were talking about awareness of the ‘present moment’. So does this mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? ….. <…> > If doubt still arises, the texts are clear that satipatthana has not > developed to the point of stream-entry. I don't have any problem with > that. But are you saying that mundane insight also eradicates a > subsequent tendency to doubt? I don't buy that... …. S: No, but it’s worn away like the adze handle through the development of satipatthana from the beginning. By the time of stream-entry, there’s no more wearing away to be done – just the deep-rooted anusaya are finally eradicated. From the beginning, there has to be the precise understanding of seeing and visible object and the distinction between therm (and of hearing and sound etc), without any idea of self. It takes a long, long time, but the understanding must be developed in order to give up all attachment to self. For each reality it’s the same – sound as sound, hardness as hardness, thinking as thinking and so on, so that when awareness is aware, they can be known as conditioned realities without it being any big deal at all. …. > > > > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to > refer > > > to? > > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > states, > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > dukkha. > > …. > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? …. S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. …. <…> > When you say things like "precise understanding of dhammas", you seem > to be referring to precise conceptual descriptions of dhammas. …. S: No. By ‘precise understanding’, I’m referring to moments of satipatthana, direct understanding of realities. …. >A > precise description of an understanding is quite different from the > understanding itself. … S: Yes. … >Is it possible for a wise person to have a > clumsy tongue, to not be able to communicate clearly? …. S: Yes. However if and when they do communicate, no matter how clumsily, we can get to know what their ideas really are, like here on DSG. It has nothing to do with the language or fluency in English or Pali. Of course we often misunderstand each other too. …. <…> > I read in the texts about patisankhañana -- knowledge of reflection > (Vism XXI, 47+). "He sees all formations as impermanent for the > following reasons: because they are non-continuous, temporary, > limited by rise and fall, disintegrating, [etc.]. He sees them as > painful for the following reasons: because they are continously > oppressed, hard to bear, [etc.]. ... why does he discern them in this > way? In order to contrive the means of deliverance." That sounds to > me like the "lower" insights are revisited over and over again, > deepening the understanding in a search for deliverance. In the midst > of this revisiting, udayabbayañana is not necessarily "lower" than > bhangañana. …. S: Each vipassana nana is a higher and deeper level of insight than the previous one. So patisankha nana (literally discrimination knowledge, I believe) penetreates the characteristics of conditioned dhammas, especially the ti-lakkhana of these dhammas repeatedly, directly understanding how such dhammas can never be a refuge of any kind, being so fleeting and unsatisfactory. (Now, we just think this while there isn’t any direct penetration of the arising and falling away of visible object, seeing and so on.) At this stage, the characteristic of anatta of all conditioned realities is seen clearly - no dhammas worth clinging to or in one’s control at all. Like the analogy of the relay chariots again to describe insights, there was no way to get to the 5th chariot without riding in the other ones in their correct order as I see it. …. <…> > If there's a kink in the way the namarupapariccheda words hit the ear > and get translated into concept so that the hearer stumbles on the > words but doesn't realize he or she is stumbling, lingering on that > language could well be a hindrance. …. S: So like on the list, we try to find ways to help each other understand what namas and rupas are using different kinds of language. The stumbling point or resistance, however, is invariably our deeply held views about Self, rather than the language, I think. Most people are just not interested. It goes against the current of usual thinking. In Bodh Gaya, I mentioned on the trip how K.Sujin suggested dhammas are like something behind a ‘black curtain'. When there’s no light, they cannot appear. It seems like nothing’s there – just people and things as usual, because of the ignorance and attachment after seeing and hearing. When there’s understanding, slowly the dhammas begin to appear. …. <…> > Oh, Sarah! I'm using "wrong" to mean "incorrect", not akusala! There > is nothing inherently wrong with being wrong. And the conceptions are > incorrect because the referents of the conceptions are not known -- > how could they be correct? …. S: You seem to be using ‘wrong’ then whenever there is not awareness of a reality, regardless of whether the citta is kusala or akusala or the formulation or conceptual understanding is right or wrong. I think this is very misleading. When we discuss dhammas now and agree that seeing is different from visible object, we’re talking conceptually, but it’s still ‘right’. There cannot be satipatthana at every moment. Is metta wrong? Is dana wrong? Is reflection on the Buddha, the Dhamma or the Sangha wrong? Look forward to any further elaborations. Metta, Sarah p.s Your post was a long one, so I tried to pick up the main points. You’re welcome to reintroduce any snipped parts of course. ================================ 38301 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi RobM I dont have my books with me now. Just a small remark, The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > > It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes > a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object > is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. k: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified it with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other have unpleasant feelings (body sense only) Ken O 38302 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobM > > I dont have my books with me now. Just a small remark, > > The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > > > > It appears as though Bhikkhu Bodhi explicitly excludes > > a "undesirable-neutral" type of object whereas this type of object > > is explicitly mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. > > k: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified it > with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other have > unpleasant feelings (body sense only) > I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable-neutral object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. Metta, Rob M :-) 38303 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:50am Subject: More Tales from India: Detachment & Bitter Medicine Hi Phil, Larry, Azita, Nina, Chris & All, A little more on detachment from discussions and reminders in India. We heard and discussed how there has to be understanding with detachment from clinging with an idea of self to any object. From the very beginning there has to be the understanding of realities, not a trying to do or not do anything or of having wholesome states like metta or wisdom arise and unwholesome states not arise. It takes a lot of patience, khanti, of course. --- plnao wrote: >. I want to be more patient and generous and > helpful to people > through cultivation of the Brahma-Viharas, but there is most definitely > an > interest in > self-image, still the desire to be considered a wise man someday. … As Nina said, this is honest. In another post you wrote, as many others would say too, that you hoped that by better understanding defilements, your highest goal will be achieved of becoming ‘more loving, more compassionate, more joyful, more equanimitous and free from knee-jerk reactions’. …. These sound like fine aims to most of us. We discussed how so often the Dhamma is like bitter medicine that we have to swallow. We think we have worthy aims and goals and then begin to find out through the development of understanding with detachment how many of these goals are rooted in attachment to oneself. When we wonder how there can be more sati and panna, how to develop metta or to see our unwholesome states in order for them to be banished a little sooner, we reminded that these are all examples of the study of Self, rather than the study of Dhamma. Friends brought up the subject of a beggar with a ‘stub’ arm whom we had all seen and there were questions about the development of compassion as opposed to detachment or even indifference. We discussed how after seeing or hearing, there’s always the paying attention to aspects, to nimitta (signs) and anupyanjanna (details) and so we end up with the study of ‘Situation’, of a beggar in this case, rather than the study of the Dhamma. All that ever appears are cittas, cetasikas and rupas. What was seen was visible object, what was heard was sound, what were thought about were concepts. Again at such a time we’re in the ocean of concepts, in the Situation which is not real. For some friends, this seemed rather heartless. For others it seemed like the bitter medicine we have to swallow. Further examples were given during the trip of attachment to a partner and so on. Again, it’s understanding with detachment which knows realities which appear and slowly by its development, the burden of self-view with attachment is lifted. Otherwise we keep drowning in ‘the ocean of concepts’ without being aware of the characteristic of any reality, the island in the ocean. So detachment means not minding at all what is conditioned and not wishing for any particular states to arise. ‘Who’s there?’ ‘No one at all. Only realities’. Other teachings can talk about many kinds of wholesome deeds and acts, but even if we don’t think of ourselves at times of peforming more dana or developing metta, they’re motivated by an idea of self. Of course this doesn’t mean there won’t be compassion when we see the beggar or any development of metta or dana. It’ll be like before, but with more understanding and less clinging to self being a certain way. Besides, there can’t be understanding all the time! There will also be less expectations of others behaving in certain ways as well when we understand more about namas and rupas and conditions. Otherwise, when there are expectations and thoughts about others, once more it’s really minding about ourselves again and further drowining in concepts. We were reminded several times that ‘if the path leads to more attachment rather than detachment, it must be wrong’. Metta, Sarah p.s Comments, questions and disagreements welcome! ======= 38304 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India - Appropos of nothing Hi Chris, Betty & Howard, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Thank you Howard! :-) > Yes, it is definitely the guests who have to fit in and change. > Once you are away from it, it becomes quite endearing in hindsight - > but when it is happening, the present reality arising is "murderous > rage" (this is a joke! :-)) .... I think I missed the joke. The circular conversation reminded me of waiting for the computer workman about to arrive 'at any minute' when it turned out eventually the hotel had been waiting days or weeks....but no one was going to tell me that.I kept being sent to the business centre to wait instead;-). And then the beds - well if the next guests didn't fit in, they may just have been shown one of the charming 5th floor rooms with the 'very collapsing camp-beds' and with wonderful electrical appliances such as an excellent TV I'm sure, but none of which were working. Amusing in hindsight as you say and a test of one's real understanding of kamma and vipaka at the time. It's just too easy to think the hotel, the tour operators or someone/something else is to blame for the short straws, I think. Look forward to more of your tales. Thx for the account on Nalanda. 'It brought back a memory of wandering sadly around the ruins'. Visible objects, stories, followed by lobha and dosa again. Betty was also talking about lots of dosa when looking out of the window of the bus. I'm just reminded she was intending to share her account.... Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, your reply to my error message was pretty hilarious - I'll see if I can find more rare sub-commentary texts for you;-) ====== 38305 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:03am Subject: Need help here :) Dear all, I have a question here and hope someone will kindly solve my doubt. The question is: What is the sequence of Javana in a vithi according to their strongness? It will be very much appreciated. Thanks. With regards, Lee 38306 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM & James, Unlike James, I didn't think his gum ball analogy was silly – I thought it > worked very well. We have no idea of what reality will appear by > conditions just like the coloured gum balls and the task of sati is to be > aware of whatever appears or `pops out' without any selection. Just as we > cannot choose what coloured gum ball will pop out, so too with realities. > Whether `sensations from the body' (i.e. hardness/softness, heat/cold, > pressure), feelings, mental states or the `various phenomena (dhammas)', > (i.e. any cittas, cetasikas or rupas), all are beyond anyone's ability to > force `out'. > > And as you said James: > "Just like one gum ball can come out of the machine at a time, awareness > can only be aware of one of these gum balls at a time. …" > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Friend Sarah (and Rob M), I'm glad that you liked my gum ball analogy, and I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. The reason I called it silly is because it appears to oversimplify a very complicated subject. The Four Foundations of Mindfulness as being like gum balls? It makes me smile and embarrassed to even suggest such a thing! However, I think that if someone has a good knowledge and background in the Four Foundations, that analogy could work. I was thinking of these initiates' perspective and that they wouldn't have such a background, so I thought that the gum ball analogy would fall flat (pop? ;-)). Really, this subject is so complicated that it needs its own slide show. After all, mindfulness is the cornerstone to the Buddha's teaching. I understood why Rob M. didn't choose to use that analogy, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to introduce it either. I liked Rob's Rose example because it demonstrated that mindfulness is being aware of objects without abundant conceptualization. This is a kind of overview look at mindfulness that his audience could more easily understand. Hard choice to make…guess it is good to give the simple and the advanced approach. I liked the picture of the baby appearing to meditate and thought that it was a very age-appropriate type of attention-getter. I also like the fact that the entire body of the baby is visible, to show that we should be mindful of the entire body (from the top of the head to the tip of the toes). However, I do worry a little that the audience may be staring excessively at the baby and not pay attention to the content of that slide (especially the girls who are obsessed with babies!). Rob, maybe you could make the baby picture fade away at the end of the points and review the points without the baby picture? (Or not, since they will be taking notes) Rob, I also think that your idea of explaining no sexual misconduct as just "No Adultery" is a good idea. The fine points of the rule can be explained if anyone asks. No reason to dwell on that subject if it makes you uncomfortable. Metta, James 38307 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sukin, A few very quick comments that you can take or leave. > > Sukin: It doesn't make sense to me that we would have had any > insight into > > anatta without first hearing about the Teachings. > > Dan: It is entirely possible for people to have enough insight into anatta > to develop a strong sense of detachment to Self without ever having > heard a whisper of Buddha's words. I think many of us have met such > people. Also, we would all agree that it is possible to learn how to > discuss "anatta" with great facility and demonstrate great command of > Buddhist words and arguments but still be very attached to Self. > > Sukin: > The goal of Dhamma practice is the eradication of lobha at all levels. > However this is a process which takes a long time and must happen in > stages, beginning with Right View. So as far as I am > concerned, `attachment to self' is not the focus of attention, though it is > quite important to detect this in oneself. However since Right View is > where one starts, it is more important to consider this and allow for the > fact that in the beginning, the understanding might only be conceptual. > It is only with practice that moments of attachment to self will be > gradually understood. 1. The process does take a long time and does begin with Right View; 2. "Sammaditthi" is decidedly not conceptual; 3. I have seen no indication in the texts that Right View depends on prior conceptual understanding, and I don't think there IS any indication. > Dan: Which has the deeper understanding? The one who has developed > a high degree of detachment to Self, yet not studied the Buddha's > words; or the one who has studied the Buddha's words extensively but > is strongly attached to Self? > > Which is more important? Understanding reality, or understanding > words? There is a striking distinction between them. > > Sukin: > Obviously, patipatti is accompanied with panna of a higher level than > pariyatti and the goal is pativedha. And reading, memorizing or even > seeing some logical relations between different concepts may not be > pariyatti at all. However when it *is* pariyatti, then the most basic > building block is indeed being laid, without which the other two levels > cannot be conditioned to arise. And when the latter have been > experienced to any degree, then `theory' too will be understood more > deeply. > But again I repeat; only Buddhas could have patipatti and pativedha > without first hearing the Teachings in any particular lifetime. Can you find any textual support for that, viz. that only Buddhas could develop any direct understanding at all? Or just that regular people can't develop the extreme depth of insight required to attain enlightenment without the help of a Buddha? > Sukin: > Of course I am never sure about anything, and whatever I state is just > personal opinion. But I have stated some reasons for this, which may > not be enough to convince you. And I can't state all the reasons because > not everything comes to mind and not every understanding can be > expressed. But I am open to any arguments from you or anyone which > might disprove my position. > I would like to try at this point, to express what I think your basic > premise is when you state about someone relying on `speculation', and > comment on it. > In conventional matters, I think it is right that without experience, if we > were to state something to be the case, then it is speculation. But I > don't think this applies to the matter of understanding anything, esp. > with regard to Dhamma. The function of panna is not `experience', and > information about past experience is not what panna at this moment is > being based upon. Panna is developed upon accumulated panna as > sankhara and sati is one proximate cause. The actual moment of panna > arising is very short but this is distinctly different from `thinking'. > Thinking can be with or without panna, but when it is, this is not > speculation, and in fact if subsequent moments are just `parroting' of > theory, this may still not be `speculating'. > There is no reason why panna cannot have concepts as object and it > makes sense that in the beginning this must be the case. It has to start > from somewhere and in development the very same concept is better > and better understood even without any direct experience. > Let us take for example the statement that, "All is Dhamma". At a > beginner level, someone might understand this to be the case while > thinking about his experiences. On the other hand another person may > not like the idea at all but instead, while taking for real people and > things, prefers to think all this to be the manifestation of God or > something. Another person may have a better understanding about > conditions and immediately understands in principle, that the statement > applies to what ever dhamma that is being experienced in the present > moment as against another, who might still think philosophically but fail > because of relative weaker panna, to think in terms of the present > moment. The former will whenever he considers the moment > only `think' about it and not really know the characteristic of dhammas. > Yet these two only understand anything conceptually but "understand" > they do! And I do except that moments when panna arises may be very > far apart and the rest of the time it may be just at best parroting and at > worse mistaking theoretical knowledge for understanding. > You are saying however in this matter, that indeed if they understand > the concepts right, then it must be because they previously had direct > experience. I don't think so. And it is according to this same theory that > I don't believe that people of other religions could have satipatthana. > --------------------------- I don't think the connection between direct understanding and conceptual understanding is as clear as you are assuming. That's all. Conceptual right view does not constitute Right View any more than conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than conventional right effort leads to Right Effort. Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. I hope this helps! Metta, Dan 38308 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eightfold Noble Path for Teens Hi, Rob (and Sarah, and James) - In a message dated 11/15/04 3:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > >S: I agree with the razzle dazzle but stopped reading at > mindfulness. I > >thought this was the weakest factor so far, especially the > definitions of > >the objects of sati. (Funny, I had no trouble viewing the > powerpoint yest, > >but can't access it now to check the wording). Anyway, it seemed > to be > >back to being aware of postures and concepts rather than > realities. Rob, > >when you refer to awareness of sitting, for example, what is > experienced? > > ===== > > The novitiates are handed some material when they start the > programme. One of the pages that they are given is an extract from > Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path" which > defines "Right Mindfulness" according to the structure of objects as > listed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I also checked Ledi Sayadaw's > essay, "The Noble Eightfold Path and its Factors Explained" and > found that he followed the same structure. This is also how the > Buddha described Right Mindfulness in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta > (DN22). This is the structure that I followed in the presentation > when selecting the objects of sati. BTW, I just checked the order > from the Sutta and updated the presentation (walking, standing, > sitting, lying down). > > ========================== As I see this, I don't think there is a problem in the discussion of the four foundations of mindfulness. It seems standard. When we are mindful of sitting, we are, more or less, depending on our level of mental cultivation, actually aware of the dhammas underlying that sitting - overall body sense, touch-contact, and so on. What I think might be somewhat improved, in the future, for this topic, are a couple points about the mindfulness per se. One of these is the distinguishing, which I am not *certain* of how to do, between mindfulness, attention, and clear comprehension. Most people use these terms in a sort of smeared-together way, but I think that is not correct. It *seems* to me that mindfulness, per se, amounts to *not forgetting* to attend to whatever arises in the moment, thereby not "getting lost". Mindfulness, as I understand it, is a "keeping in mind" to be attentive. Attention is a consequence of that, and clear comprehension a consequence of attention. Now, I may well be wrong on exactly what mindfulness is, but whatever it is, it should be distinguished from attention and from clear comprehension. This is one point. The other point I'd like to raise, which could lead to a modification even right now, should you agree with me on this, is the following. On a few slides, you deal with papanca, starting with how the "eye" sees an an image of a rose, and how the mind then concocts further and further upon that percept. Of course, at that point of "seeing" a rose, it already is not the eye that sees, but the mind which perceives. The stage is already that of percept. I think you might want to back up matters slightly with that material, pointing out that there is a an initial visual contact taking in a "bare" visual object, neutral in feeling, and following upon this, there is an initial mental processing involving automatic comparison with previous sights yielding a perceiving, usually wordless, which is the recognition of "a rose". That recognition is the first step of mental processing of the original bare "eye object". The mind then runs with that ball ("the rose"), taking it further and further up the field of mental concocting, cheered on and impelled by the spectators and fans, the mind's avid desires and misconceptions, jumping up from their seats. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38309 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does that > awareness develop? Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. > > There's a clear and stark distinction between insight into reality > > and the language with which one describes it. Buddha's words are in > > no sense the "one path", but they do describe the one path well. > > A description of a deep, penetrating, mundane insight that could well > > be made by someone who hadn't heard a whisper of Buddha's teachings > > might run like this: "Ultimately, pleasure does not lead to > > happiness." > …. > S: We agree that the words are not the path. No one has ever suggested > this. The point is that the `someone' who hasn't heard a whisper of > Buddha's teachings deeply believes there is Someone when they have such > insights or reflections. It is not the deep understanding of realities as > anatta. "Deeply believes"? Do you mean that the mind grasps onto the idea of a 'someone' at all times? No, I can't imagine that you mean that. Other times there are other objects that it clings to as well. A mind with a latent tendency to grasp at the notion of "self" is not enlightened; but such a mind may well be able to develop wisdom nonetheless. > >A more Buddhist description might run like this: "Dukkha > > is characteristic of vedana." If someone who has never heard Buddha's > > words doesn't understand what meaning you attach to them or is unable > > to use them fluently in conversation, it is no indication whatsoever > > that they have zero insight into reality. Instead, it is simply > > testimony that they are not familiar with his words. > …. > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or the > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that arises > having heard about these realities that counts. That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. I'd say that, for the most part, you can assess their conceptual understanding in coversation; but because direct understanding is so strikingly distinct from conceptual understanding, assessment of someone's direct understanding cannot be safely assessed in conversation. It takes years and years of observing their actions, speech, etc. And even then, it is not easy. > > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. > … > S: You were talking about awareness of the `present moment'. So does this > mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? Sarah, a lot has been snipped, but I was just trying to construct a single, simple example. The example needn't include all possibilities. > > > > > What do you understand the First Noble Truth of suffering to > > refer > > > > to? > > > > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > > states, > > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > > dukkha. > > > …. > > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? > …. > S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless discussion about it. > >Is it possible for a wise person to have a > > clumsy tongue, to not be able to communicate clearly? > …. > S: Yes. However if and when they do communicate, no matter how clumsily, > we can get to know what their ideas really are, like here on DSG. It has > nothing to do with the language or fluency in English or Pali. Of course > we often misunderstand each other too. Knowing what someone's ideas are has nothing to do with how well they express themselves? And nothing to do with vocabulary and what they are referring to when they use words? Curiouser and curiouser! > > Oh, Sarah! I'm using "wrong" to mean "incorrect", not akusala! There > > is nothing inherently wrong with being wrong. And the conceptions are > > incorrect because the referents of the conceptions are not known - - > > how could they be correct? > …. > S: You seem to be using `wrong' then whenever there is not awareness of a > reality, regardless of whether the citta is kusala or akusala or the > formulation or conceptual understanding is right or wrong. I think this is > very misleading. When we discuss dhammas now and agree that seeing is > different from visible object, we're talking conceptually, but it's still > `right'. There cannot be satipatthana at every moment. Is metta wrong? Is > dana wrong? Is reflection on the Buddha, the Dhamma or the Sangha wrong? No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! (Not morally wrong, but, rather, incorrect. I feel like I need to say this again because your question "Is metta wrong?" makes no sense unless you are thinking in terms of the "morally wrong" meaning of "wrong" rather than the "incorrect" meaning of wrong.) Metta, Dan 38310 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Dhamma Greetings Nina, In your talk with Howard you said "Cittas are so fast that these contacts seem to occur all at once. That is why we think of my ears, my pain, we take realities for I and mine. Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, Wheel155-158): We can only with the help of the Abhidhamma fully appreciate the deep meaning of this sutta. Knowing about cittas that succeed each other very rapidly is really helpful." I have to make a comment. Through the proper practice of meditation one can actually see through direct experience how fast mind moves and changes. The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed up there awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent origination arises and passes away. With this fast awareness of direct experience there is no need for abhidhammic concepts. With this kind of fast awareness there natrually arises an equanimity to this process and any idea at all of a personal self is completely abandoned. Why? Because one can see for themselves directly that there is no controller or 'self'. Hope this helps. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi Howard, op 15-11-2004 02:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can > *lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely bright > light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), and > that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, there > results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I agree > that it is the *body* contact that is painful. > ------------------------------------------ N: I used to think in this way too. But then we are in the realm of science, lost in the ocean of concepts. Science is not our concern, it does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. So, it does not matter what causes the pain, but we know it is experienced through body-contact. There is no need to investigate further, about vibrations or the iris in the eye. We can learn to discern different dhammas at different moments. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are > different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and in > fact > probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door > contact that is subtle. > --------------------------------------- >N: The conditions for body-consciousness are: the rupa of bodysense (all over the body) that is ready for impact of the element of tangible object. Moreover, kamma-condition and natural strong dependence-condition cause the arising of the vipakacitta that is body consciousness (and also its accompanying cetasikas contact, painful feeling and the others). The body-door adverting-consciousness, preceding the body-consciousness, is its proximate cause. I mention these conditions to make it clear that many different conditions are needed for one short moment of experience. In this case it was akusala kamma producing the painful feeling. But, seeing or hearing are produced by other kammas that may be kusala kamma. How could these be conditions for painful feeling? We should not mix different cittas, then we are thinking of a situation, an event, a whole, a person who has pain. No detachment. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light > from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. > ------------------------------------------- N: It is natural to think of an area in the eye, I do too. But that is again thinking of a place, of a situation. Understanding has to be developed of different dhammas arising each because of their own conditions, which are only elements, devoid of self. I know it is a long way to develop this understanding. We cannot hasten it. Pañña works its way. Nina. 38312 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] India.......[Nina] Dear Azita, I like your quote very much. We had to hear: develop your own understanding. It would be easy if someone would prescribe us what to do by way of different steps, but it does not work this way. One has to be an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge, as is said in the Maha-parinibbana sutta. How true this is. op 15-11-2004 00:11 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > During one of our many discussions, T.A. Sujin spoke about the > teachings of Buddha being according to his understanding. When we > read the Tipitika, we should remember that these are words brought > down by arahats, enlightened beings who fully understood the words of > Buddha. T.A. Sujin encouraged us not to be careless and think that > its very easy; as we read we should know whether its our own > understanding or not yet. She stressed the importance of this. > > Buddha did not develop his understanding just to tell us about > the name of all these realities. He had to use terms to define and > point out the characteristics of reality. For those who are not > careless, they will develop gradually until its truly their own > understanding e.g. visible object - is it now one's own understanding > that its just that that can be seen. > > Are we truthful with ourselves or do we fool ourselves that > we have 'reached a certain stage' when we only 'think' we have? > Can we honestly say we know seeing from visible object? > I know I can't. N: I found this helpful: Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but because of saññå, remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and things and these seem to last. When we are dreaming, we are not really seeing and hearing, but we remember former experiences. It is the same when we are awake: we live as it were in a dream. We are absorbed in the images and details of things, but at least we know that is thinking, not seeing. Without the Buddha's teaching we would not know this at all. It is of no use trying to be aware of seeing, we cannot force sati or select any object as we often heard. Perhaps there may be awareness of hardness, who can tell? Nina. 38313 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, I think it would be nice if you responded to this as well. Smile and be happy1 Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38314 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/15/04 1:34:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 15-11-2004 02:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Yes, I agree. But hearing can *lead* to bodily contact, and seeing can > >*lead* to bodily impact. As a consequence of seeing sudden, extremely > bright > >light, there is a very sudden contraction of the iris (I presume it is), > and > >that is painful. Likewise with the hearing of an extremely loud sound, > there > >results a sudden vibratory motion within the ear that is very painful. I > agree > >that it is the *body* contact that is painful. > >------------------------------------------ > N: I used to think in this way too. But then we are in the realm of science, > lost in the ocean of concepts. Science is not our concern, it does not lead > to detachment from the idea of self. So, it does not matter what causes the > pain, but we know it is experienced through body-contact. There is no need > to investigate further, about vibrations or the iris in the eye. We can > learn to discern different dhammas at different moments. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I don't care about the conventional scientfic explanation either, though I referred to it. My point was only that the visual contact leads to painful body-door contact. --------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >I agree that ear-door conciousness and eye-door consiousness are > >different from body-door consciousness, but each of the first two can, and > in > >fact > >probably always do, condition body-door contact, though often body-door > >contact that is subtle. > >--------------------------------------- > >N: The conditions for body-consciousness are: the rupa of bodysense (all > over > the body) that is ready for impact of the element of tangible object. > Moreover, kamma-condition and natural strong dependence-condition cause the > arising of the vipakacitta that is body consciousness (and also its > accompanying cetasikas contact, painful feeling and the others). The > body-door adverting-consciousness, preceding the body-consciousness, is its > proximate cause. I mention these conditions to make it clear that many > different conditions are needed for one short moment of experience. In this > case it was akusala kamma producing the painful feeling. But, seeing or > hearing are produced by other kammas that may be kusala kamma. How could > these be conditions for painful feeling? We should not mix different cittas, > then we are thinking of a situation, an event, a whole, a person who has > pain. No detachment. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't disagree with the foregoing, Nina. Of course there are numerous conditions for the arising of painful body-door contact. I'm merely saying that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I know it as direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. --------------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Actually, I can easily distinguish the seeing of a very bright light > >from the painful bodily reaction in the eye area immediately following. > >------------------------------------------- > N: It is natural to think of an area in the eye, I do too. But that is again > thinking of a place, of a situation. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a conventional designation that is grounded in reality and is quite meaningful. To reformulate it in ultimate terms would be too complex an endeavor. So long as one realizes the shorthand nature of useful language conventions, there is no problem with them. ------------------------------------------------- Understanding has to be developed of> > different dhammas arising each because of their own conditions, which are > only elements, devoid of self. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. Nothing that I have said on this matter is contrary to that. ----------------------------------------------- I know it is a long way to develop this> > understanding. We cannot hasten it. Pañña works its way. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: At this point in time, I'm reasonably clear on this. Of course, greater clarity is almost always a possibility. One thing though: I think it is incorrect to say that it cannot be hastened. If one does nothing at all, not studing Dhamma, not attending carefuly to what arises, not guarding the senses, etc, then the conditions for the cultivation of wisdom will not be established, and without the conditions being established, neither will the wisdom be. The speed of cultivation of wisdom in that case will be zero miles per hour! I do believe that this can be hastened. --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38315 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [...] >I'm merely saying > that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these > conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I know it as > direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. [...] Hi Howard, just thinking... how about an event instead of the experience? metta, Agrios 38316 From: Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] different doorways, to Howard. Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 11/15/04 3:37:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > [...] > >I'm merely saying > >that a visual experience of "extremely bright light" is one of these > >conditions. And this is a matter of direct, and oft repeated, experience. I > know it as > >direct, experiential fact. It is not unusual. > > [...] > > Hi Howard, > just thinking... > how about an event instead of the experience? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, just between you and me (No one else is "listening", are they? ;-), I don't actually believe, except "so to speak", in events other than experiences. I also don't believe in "things", but only in events and processes. So, as I see it, there are no odors, but there do occur "odorings". BTW, I don't expect anyone else to adopt such perspectives. While I think that these perspectives are implicit in the Dhamma, and while I think they are correct (to the extent that any conceptual views can be correct), I realize I could be wrong, and I have no reason to attempt to convince others of these. -------------------------------------------- > > > metta, > Agrios ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38317 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:49pm Subject: A man *not* burning! Hello all The other morning I was walking in Tokyo, before work, when I saw a giant billboard for coffee, with a picture of a famously passionate baseball manager with a giant flame surrounding him. "Here is a man....burning!" said the ad copy. (Of course, meaning burning with passion for managing) I almost immediately thought "Here is yoniso manasikaara. Not burning!" and was encouraged by this. I've been thinking a lot about just what it is, just how it is, that the mind stops proliferating. And this was a nice chance to feel confident that I at least knew what an interesting and important point it is. I continued walking to work, my mind sometimes proliferating on my four favourite proliferation topics (Dhamma, baseball - will the Yankees get Carlos Beltran? - the war in Iraq and sex) and sometimes not. I often thought of this "not burning!", sensed it. On the last stretch before I reach my school, I walk against a flood of men going to the horse race betting center. There are hundreds and hundreds of them, smoking, sometimes drinking from cans of booze and there has often been conceited thoughts on my part when I compare myself to them. (They have dirty hearts" I have thought before, though I thought it in Japanese using a phrase which doesn't sound quite so prudish.) On some occasions, I have practiced Metta intentionally towards, and found it helpful for my aversion. But as I've said on other occasions, I'm not comfortable at this time with generating metta intentionally in response to aversion. This past Sunday, however, there was equanimity, there was no burning. This morning I read the "fire sutta" (the eye is burning, form is burning, eye-consciousness is burning" etc and thought I would send along this post. "The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning. When a noble follower who hears the truth sees this, he finds estrangement in the mind etc...." I look forward to learning more, with your assistance, about how yoniso manasikaara, panna and sati work to liberate us from proliferation. Metta, Phil p.s Hello in passing to Bhante V, Larry and Jon. I want to return to our discussions but won't be able to until tomorrow at the earliest. 38318 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:39pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Phil, Sorry for the delay. I was away for a couple of days, and got behind in my reading. On the subject of the five-fold mundane path, you wrote: --------- > Do you believe that such moments are rare moments, so called "path moments" that are akin to enlightenment, or can they be experienced in a more common, everyday way? Since you've defined them as right practice, I guess you would see them as moments that we will experience *not* only at rare moments. > -------- I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment of satipatthana in a lifetime. On the other hand, the ariyan monks described in the Satipatthana Sutta seemed to practice satipatthana wherever they were and whatever they were doing. I think you and I agree that satipatthana would not have stopped those monks from paying full attention to their activities. They would not have felt obliged to note, "seeing" "hearing" "walking" "talking" "bending" "lifting" and so on. Imagine doing that while you are trying to teach a class! In my experience, that sort of mindfulness makes it nearly impossible to perform ordinary duties. Worse still, it is an imitation of satipatthana based on a wrong understanding of the Dhamma. ------------------ Ph: > As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the rarity of the arising of understanding of realities. > ------------------ It would be good to understand why it is rare. That would certainly be more constructive than wanting it to be frequent. ----------- Ph: > I think that approach is helpful for conditioning patience. On the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding can arise in a more shallow and yet still helpful way day in day out, perhaps many times during a busy day. There are degrees of panna. And degrees of "practice?" > ----------- Yes, but satipatthana occurs in the natural course of daily life. If we have any ideas of a special, preparatory, state of mind then we have not listened to, and wisely considered, the Dhamma. That will mean the conditions for satipatthana are not present. Kind regards, Ken H 38319 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Rob m and Ken O: op 15-11-2004 09:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. N: As I understood also the undesirable can be very undesirable or slightly so. (more neutral. ) >> Ken O: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified > it >> with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other > have >> unpleasant feelings (body sense only) >> > R: I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable-neutral > object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. N: I looked up the passage, a recap: Text Vis.: And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. =========== N. Bodily pleasant feeling and painful feeling are keen, because the impact of tangible object on the bodysense is more violent than the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant sense-bases. The sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, seeing, hearing, etc., are accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The indifferent feeling that is kusala vipaaka is superior, whereas the indifferent feeling that is akusala vipaaka is inferior. The Tiika explains that since akusala vipaaka is the result of what is surely inferior also indifferent feeling accompanying the akusala vipaakacitta is inferior because it is of a nature of affliction (dukkhasabhaavatta). It states: N: Upekkhaa that is akusala vipaaka is inferior, it should be seen as a kind of suffering or affliction, although it is not as acute as bodily pain. The Tiika states: N: This shows the passive nature of indifferent feeling that accompanies akusala vipaaka. It is a kind of affliction. end recap. Nina. 38320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Lee, op 15-11-2004 13:03 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n... > > What is the sequence of Javana in a vithi according to their strongness? Ven. Narada, Abhidhammattha sangaha, p. 169: The first javana is the weakest, (no previous sustaining force), it can give result in this life. The last is the second weakest (sustaining power is spent). it may give result in the next life. The remaining five may give result at any time. Nina. 38321 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 50-Feeling/Vedana (w) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** We have considered the characteristics of pleasant bodily feeling, painful bodily feeling, happy feeling (somanassa), unhappy feeling (domanassa) and indifferent feeling (upekkhå)(2) . Although all of them are the cetasika which is feeling (vedanå), they are different kinds of feeling with different characteristics. At every moment feeling is different, because at every moment there is a different citta. For example, upekkhå (indifferent feeling) which accompanies vipåkacitta is different from upekkhå which accompanies akusala citta or upekkhå which accompanies kusala citta. Upekkhå which accompanies the jhånacitta of the fifth stage is different again. All these feelings are upekkhå, but they are conditioned by different cittas and accompanying cetasikas. *** 2) For details about the different feelings which accompany different cittas, see Visuddhimagga XIV, 127-128, and my Appendix 1. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38322 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob m and Ken O: > op 15-11-2004 09:55 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The Visuddhimagga XIV, 102 states: > Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral > objects only, while these [unprofitable resultant] have undesirable > or undesirable-neutral objects only. > N: As I understood also the undesirable can be very undesirable or slightly > so. (more neutral. ) ===== It also makes sense to me that there would be "very undesirable" and "slightly undesirable" (just as there is "very desirable" and "slightly desirable"). In other words, it makes sense to me that there would be four categories. Perhaps we can reconcile this with Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA (i.e. three categories) by saying: When considered from the perspective of the citta process, there are only three categories: - both very undesirable objects and slightly desirable objects have unwholesome resultant investigating consciousness with neutral feeling for investigating citta and registration citta - slightly desirable objects have wholesome resultant investigating consciousness with neutral feeling for investigating citta and registration citta (may also have sense sphere resultant with indifferent feeling as registration citta) - highly desirable objects have wholesome resultant investigating consciousness with pleasant feeling for investigating citta and registration citta (may also have sense sphere resultant with pleasant feeling as registration citta) Nina, am I correct in interpreting the text as saying that very desirable and very undesirable is always associated with body door whereas the slightly desirable and slightly undesirable are associated with objects from the other doors? For example, remember the cotton ball (derived rupas) and anvil (primary rupas) explanation of why impingement on the sense door results in pleasurable / painful feeling whereas all other impingements result in neutral feeling in the sense-consciousness cittas? ===== > >> Ken O: unprofitable resultant should be of two kinds if we classified > > it > >> with feelings, one which is of neutral feelings while the other > > have > >> unpleasant feelings (body sense only) > >> > > > R: I guess my problem is the Vsm's use of the term "undesirable- neutral > > object" which seems to be at odds with BB's text. > > N: I looked up the passage, a recap: > Text Vis.: > And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; > while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. > =========== > N. Bodily pleasant feeling and painful feeling are keen, because the impact > of tangible object on the bodysense is more violent than the impact of the > other sense objects on the relevant sense-bases. > The sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, seeing, hearing, etc., > are accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The indifferent feeling > that is kusala vipaaka is superior, whereas the indifferent feeling that is > akusala vipaaka is inferior. > The Tiika explains that since akusala vipaaka is the result of what is > surely inferior also indifferent feeling accompanying the akusala > vipaakacitta is inferior because it is of a nature of affliction > (dukkhasabhaavatta). It states: as acute¹ ( ³dukkha.m viya naatitikhi.naa²ti.)> > N: Upekkhaa that is akusala vipaaka is inferior, it should be seen as a kind > of suffering or affliction, although it is not as acute as bodily pain. > The Tiika states: (indifferent feeling) is not like that, but here it also occurs as having > the nature of affliction. > The result of akusala is not devoid of suffering (na hi akusalassa vipaako > adukkho hoti).The nature of upekkhaa should be seen as the indifference of a > weak man who is oppressed by a strong man and who is unable to strike back. > > > N: This shows the passive nature of indifferent feeling that accompanies > akusala vipaaka. It is a kind of affliction. > end recap. > Nina. Metta, Rob M :-) 38323 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, I’ll try to give a few comments or ask a few questions on the post you addressed to me. Thank you. Please know I offer any comments respectfully. I also started with a strong dose of the Mahasi method as taught by Munindra in India, followed by more of the same intensive practice in Sri Lanka. But since our early days, our ideas and understanding of practice and meditation have gone in opposite directions. It’s interesting. I see you're based in the States now. To give a few examples here: --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and > relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise. …. S: So already the goal is quite different. For me, the goal of meditation (I prefer to use vipassana or satipatthana instead) is to develop understanding with detachment towards whatever nama or rupa is conditioned at this moment. Otherwise, it seems to be to just be increasing attachment to a self – a self that has less tightness, less tension, less defilements, more equanimity, fewer knee-jerk reactions etc. … >Loving-acceptance > of the present moment, then relaxing any tensions found in the mind/body > is the way to equanimity all of the time. Ergo, the knee-jerk reactions > begin to disappear with the direct experiential development of close > observation (sati) of "HOW" dependent origination actually arises in > every moment. …. S: Surely this is thinking about dependent origination? Let’s take the first factor of avijja (ignorance). Is there any direct understanding of the mental factor of avijja when it arises at the present moment? … > It is interesting to see so many people talk about "craving" but don't > really know what it is. So we get into definitions again. From the > experiential point of view, the tightness that arises with each movement > of mind is "craving". "Craving" is the "I like it... I don't like it > mind" (Please notice that this is where the false idea of a personal > self > (atta or "I") begins. …. S: I’m not sure I follow what this tightness is. For example, when one has a tension headache, the physical sensations such as heat or hardness or pressure are quite distinct from the experience of such and quite different again from the attachment. Also the ‘I don’t like it’ aversion is different again. Of course, as you suggest, they are connected in various ways, but I think they still have to be known as different conditioned dhammas. As we read in the suttas, for example in those on the khandhas in SN, all dhammas are taken for self in various ways. Perhaps you are rightly implying that the false ideas arise with attachment only. … >So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this > false idea of a personal self[atta]). …. S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known. …. >And this "craving" always > manifests > as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body (especially in the > head) ….. S: Does it say that craving manifests in this way in the suttas or any part of the Tipitaka? I think that usually craving arises in mind-door processes following sense door experiences. …. >so the instructions given in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta to > tranquilize the bodily formation on the in and out breath is essential > because it shows one the subtle tensions and tightnesses (cravings) that > we carry around with us all of the time. In the Anapanasati Sutta it not > only tells us to tranquilize the bodily formation but to tranquilize the > mental formation on the in and out breath. ….. S: I know from your helpful website that you have written a book on this subject and here we’ve had very detailed discussions too. I look forward to many more, but I’m not sure where they’d begin. If you have time, I’d ask you to kindly look at posts saved under ‘Anapanasati’ in Useful Posts and to reposts any parts of interest with your comments. Hopefully Jon, Nina or others will help pick up this part of our thread! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I appreciate that your main interest is in the suttas rather than the Abhidhamma or commentaries, so this may restrict our discussions somewhat, but I'll try my best to find common areas of study. …. > I hope this is of some use to you. …. S: Your posts are very interesting and I particularly appreciate your kind approach. I look forward to many discussions. Just this thread may keep us talking for quite sometime, I should think. I don't feel my response is very adequate. With Respect and Metta, Sarah p.s Howard and Htoo, I hope you will participate too! ======== From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:31am Subject: Rahula's Questions Hi Rahula, It's a long time since we heard from you! Good to see you again. As no one else answered your questions, I’m just giving a few comments which occurred to me. --- rahula_80 wrote: > I have seen monks behaving improperly. I wish to know whether such > behaviors are a breach of their training rules. I am perplex with > what I read in books and what I have seen. Here are some questions I > wish to get clarifications. ... S: As I recall, you are very knowledgeable when it comes to the text. I remember we had a detailed discussion on the iddhis and jhanas for example. I had to pull out the Visuddhimagga and other texts to follow you in fact. So when you raise questions about basic aspects of the Patimokkha, I’m sure you can give us the answers as well. When we are concerned about how monks are behaving, what is the reason for our concern? Doesn’t the study of Dhamma come back to our own cittas at such a time – our own attachments and aversion when others behave in ways we don’t approve of? (Of course, this doesn’t mean we should participate in activities such as the giving of money to monks, as we know it will not be helpful for them at all.) Similarly, you mention you feel ‘uneasy and illogical’ about a published book which doesn’t agree with your understanding of the texts which is probably correct. (Please see ‘Sharing Merit’ in U.P. for more discussion about who can benefit – in brief, only those in particular realms who can rejoice in any such offering). My interest here, as you’ve raised ‘unease’ about various books before, is again the real reason for such unease. Do we tend to think that the cause of our concerns, unease and problems is really the world out there – people, books and situations, rather than our own accumulated kilesa (defilenments)? Of course, the latter can only be known by really understanding the present dhammas appearing. I think that when satipatthana begins to develop, very slowly, there begins to be less concern about how others are or are not behaving, but once more, it can be bitter medicine to get used to slowly. We can always find reasons or justify why the problem is the other people or the situation around us. I’ll be glad to hear any of your comments, Rahula. Metta, Sarah ======= 38325 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, On your earlier crypic comments, --- "Dan D." wrote: S:> > We can question our motives for wishing to find out about higher > stages of > > insight or enlightenment at all. > D:> Huh? Peculiar comment... .... S: Is our wish to learn more about these stages due to attachment or concern to clarify what has not been realized or to help others not go off the right path or what. Only panna can know. ... <...> S:> > And who are we today to think we may hear (or not even hear) a few > words > > from the teachings and reach higher stages of insight? > D:> Huh? ... S: If we think that people today don't even need to hear the Buddha's teachings to develop various insights or that we only need to hear a little and reflect on suffering, then I'd suggest it's wrong. We are not Sariputta,we are not listening to the Buddha directly and even Sariputta who had access to all the finest teachers of his day, still had to hear the Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ===== 38326 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, > Dan: Can you find any textual support for that, viz. that only Buddhas > could develop any direct understanding at all? Or just that regular > people can't develop the extreme depth of insight required to attain > enlightenment without the help of a Buddha? Sukin: No, sorry I can't. And I probably read about this only here on DSG, and that too I think involving much inference on my part. If for example the Buddha did have satipatthana when he was still a Bodhisatta, don't you think that given his accumulated parami, he would have been on the correct path from the beginning and would have seen through all the wrong practices and not followed any? > > --------------------------- > Dan: I don't think the connection between direct understanding and > conceptual understanding is as clear as you are assuming. That's all. > > Conceptual right view does not constitute Right View any more than > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort. > ------------------------------------- . Sukin: I don't know how clear the connection between direct and conceptual understanding is in the texts, but certainly it is not very clear in my own mind ;-). But any other proposition including yours just seems wrong as compared, and this is why I assert as I do. I think `view' right or wrong can arise at the mind door process immediately following the sense door. In other words `self-view' is deeply rooted even at the level of paramattha. This means that by the time there is any awareness of what is going on, our views have already hardened into. This process seems like an impossible trap to get out of. Which is why someone who meditates has little chance of realizing the fault in his endeavour. Views dictate what he chooses to do and the interpretation of results which follow. And the process of self- justification never stops. Unless of course he comes to hear and understands about dhammas, i.e. have pariyatti and patipatti. But because self-view is so deeply rooted, and all the time we conceptualize about our experiences, I think this is why "right concepts" must be presented to us first. And even this is not enough, because even the correct `theory' can be interpreted in any number of wrong ways, hence the need to be in touch with the wise friend and engage constantly in discussions. Were there instead of this, right view at the paramattha level, there would be little need to listen to the teachings, because any interpretation of experience which follows would be informed by right view of the patipatti level. And this seems quite unlikely to happen without first having heard about it. Even after hearing the Teachings, because of the vastly greater accumulated akusala including wrong view, over kusala and right view, there arises the need to be reminded over and over again about what the understanding should be. So when you propose that a person could have satipatthana without first hearing about it, you seem to be talking about really super men! When you are comparing conceptual right view with conventional right effort, what you seem to be forgetting is that the former is only a citta moment, whereas the latter is a conventional activity. In fact `conventional right effort' can be viewed `rightly' on the conceptual level, and this makes a difference if indeed wrong or right effort will follow, i.e. one citta moment. Conceptual right view is neither the activity of reading the texts nor any verbalization that one might entertain, but in fact a momentary citta which can be preceded and followed by any possible citta including self-view. And the problem may be in these subsequent moments with wrong view which is the basis of your comparison with conventional right effort?! Finally, what you say seem to amounts to that, thinking that there is such a thing as `conceptual right view' and that this leads to satipatthana, is wrong view. So who ever has this view, will not have right practice and therefore `right view'. Is this your position? If so, then my question is, what is the correct view? And would this be conceptual? ------------------------------------------- > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly. ;-) Metta, Sukin 38327 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 112, 113 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > just butting in. N: We have to think of 24 classes of conditions, this is most complex. > Function is just the task of a particular citta. There are fourteen > functions, as we have seen. > recap: It conditions the arising of lobha-mula-citta by way of > pakatuppanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence condition. Thus > lobha-mula-citta performd the function of javana in the process of cittas. > > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Nina, Thanks Nina. I do not assume butting in. I had just been away from the internet for a while. your explanation to Larry is very good. With respect, Htoo Naing 38328 From: steven_19988 Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:58am Subject: Five Visions of a Dying Man 1. I've just read an article, Five Visions of a Dying Man, by Ven.Rastrapal Mahathero which was published by Buddhist Publication Society in Year 2000. From that article, it was mentioned that "Those who will go to hell see the vision of a mass of fire, those who will go to the world of the petas see darkness and gloom all-round, those who will take birth as lower animals see visions of forests and animals and other creatures, those who will take birth as human being see the vision of their dead realtions, and those who will take birth in the celestial worlds have the vision of the heavenly palaces." I'm confused with this statement. What I was told by some reverends was that a dying man who sees the vision of their departed relatives will be reborn in the petas world (not to the human realm). Could someone here kindly clarify this to me please by citing from the Nikayas relating to this particular vision. 2. Is rebirth immediate after death or does the being or consciousness hang around in the intermediate stage (antarabhava) awaiting to be reborn? 3. I was told that the last consciousness of a dying man gives rise to the next (relinking) consciousness. Isn't this contradictory to the Dependent Origination which states that when one phenomenon ceases, the other ceases too? Thank you very much for your time in answering my questions. 38329 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken (and all) - In a message dated 11/15/04 11:45:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment > of satipatthana in a lifetime. ======================== I don't see the term 'satipatthana' as synonymous with 'wisdom' as you and some others here seem to. Only when the stage has been reached that the 4th foundation of mindfulness is the range of mindfulness does the setting forth of mindfulness culminate with the arising of wisdom. That level of practice is, I quite agree, rare. I will explain as follows: From the ATI Glossary: satipatthana: Foundation of mindfulness; frame of reference -- body, feelings, mind, and mental events, viewed in and of themselves as they occur. From Nyanatiloka's dictionary, explaining satipatthana as consisting of exercises *leading* to insight: > The 4 contemplations comprise several exercises, but the > Satipatthána should not therefore be thought of as a mere collection of > meditation subjects, any one of which may be taken out and practised alone. Though > most of the exercises appear also elsewhere in the Buddhist scriptures, in the > context of this sutta they are chiefly intended for the cultivation of > mindfulness and insight, as indicated by the repetitive passage concluding each > section of the sutta (see below). The 4 contemplations cover all the 5 groups > of existence (khandha, q.v.), because mindfulness is meant to encompass the > whole personality. Hence, for the full development of mindfulness, the practice > should extend to all 4 types of contemplation, though not every single > exercise mentioned under these four headings need be taken up. A methodical > practice of Satipatthána has to start with one of the exercises out of the group > 'contemplation of the body', which will serve as the primary and regular > subject of meditation: The other exercises of the group and the other contemplatons > are to be cultivated when occasion for them arises during meditation and in > everyday life.After cach contemplation it is shown how it finally leads to > insight-knowledge: "Thus with regard to his own body he contemplates the body, > with regard to the bodies of others he contemplates the body, with regard to > both he contemplates the body. He beholds how the body arises and how it > passes away, beholds the arising and passing away of the body. 'A body is there' > (but no living being, no individual, no woman, no man, no self, nothing that > belongs to a self; neither a person, nor anything belonging to a person; > Com.): thus he has established his attentiveness as far as it serves his > knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives independent, unattached to anything in the > world.''In the same way he contemplates feeling, mind and mind-objects. > After each contemplation it is shown how it finally leads to insight-knowledge ... From the PTI Pali-English Dictionary: Patthana (p. 402) (nt.) [fr. pa+stha, cp. patthahati] setting forth, putting forward; only in cpd. sati° setting up of mindfulness (q. v. and see discussion of term at Dial II.324). Besides in later lit. meaning "origin," starting point, cause, in title of the 7th book of the Abhidhamma, also called Mahapakarana. See Ledi, J.P.T.S. 1915--16, p. 26; Mrs. Rh. D., Tika p. 1, vi. -- At Sdhp 321 it has the Sk. meaning of "setting out" (?). My own observations: The term 'satipatthana' literally means the establishment or putting forward, not of insight, but of mindfulness. The term is not 'pa~n~napatthana' or '~nanapatthana' or 'vijjapatthana' - it is 'SATIpatthana'. It refers to a practice of being mindful, of not forgetting, of remembering, to attend with clarity to whatever arises at any moment. This practice, as I see it, begins, while still overcome by concept, with bodily sensations and deportment, bodily composition and fate, and realization that "there is a body", with feelings, their source and characteristic, their beginnings and endings, and realization that "there are feelings", and with cognitive and emotional states, including the realization that "there is mind", and culminates with the 4th foundation, the direct, nonconceptual experencing of dhammas, including all elements of the five aggregates (including the hindrances), and later, as they arise, the enlightenment factors, and the four noble actualities directly realized. [I write here "actualities" instead of "truths", because we speak here not of verbal propositions, but of existential facts.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38330 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah (and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/16/04 3:02:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a > personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be > eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is > any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be > aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that > this false idea can be known ===================== Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The false idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are lesser eradications to be accomplished before that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38331 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah (Bhante) B>So when the "craving" is let go of, so is this > false idea of a personal self[atta]). …. S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known. It says in the suttas that the conceit I AM is the last to go before awakening. I dont see how you can get rid of it first thru any mental gymnastics? What knows this false idea of self Sarah? Is it not just another contrary no-self idea? Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord as you will easily quit grasping at objects. PEACE E 38332 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: Five Visions of a Dying Man Steven 19988 wrote: 1. I've just read an article, Five Visions of a Dying Man, by Ven.Rastrapal Mahathero which was published by Buddhist Publication Society in Year 2000. From that article, it was mentioned that "Those who will go to hell see the vision of a mass of fire, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Steven, this will also depend on what level of hell he is going to. If the hell he is going is 'avici' which literally means 'without interval of which is free of dukkha or physical pain', he will definitely see great flame. If other hells, fire may or may not be the object of dying consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: those who will go to the world of the petas see darkness and gloom all-round, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some see their late relatives who are petas. So seeing relatives when dying may or may not mean rebirth in human realm. This is for your later question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven: those who will take birth as lower animals see visions of forests ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Asurakaya-to-be may also see forests. That is forests without any water or any other specifications. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: and animals and other creatures, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beings dying if they are going to animal realm, they may see dirty places if they are going to be reborn as lice ( louse ), mice etc etc. Some may see tummy or walls of animal mother's womb. Some see animals of same kind that they are going to be reborn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: those who will take birth as human being see the vision of their dead realtions, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have discussed above. Going to human realm may reveal vision of womb wall, or the environment that he will be reborn. They may see their living relatives if they are going to be reborn in their families. If dead relatives this may be indication for peta rebirth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: and those who will take birth in the celestial worlds have the vision of the heavenly palaces." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Like Nanda lake, padumma or lilies flowers, devi ( female deva ) or deva ( male deva or male celestiel beings ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: I'm confused with this statement. What I was told by some reverends was that a dying man who sees the vision of their departed relatives will be reborn in the petas world (not to the human realm). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If dead relatives, yes, it is. I have discussed above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Could someone here kindly clarify this to me please by citing from the Nikayas relating to this particular vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please ask Nikaya experts about specific statements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: 2. Is rebirth immediate after death or does the being or consciousness hang around in the intermediate stage (antarabhava) awaiting to be reborn? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no intermediate stage at all. There are exactly 31 realms and The Buddha already taught these and their implications. There are 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. All these 4 realms do not have exact lifespan. It may be limitless to a few seconds. Human realm do not have stable lifespan even though there exists for specific era for example currently it is roughly 80 to 100 years. All other 26 realms do have their lifespan and they do not overshoot their lifespan. But they may be reborn in the same realm even without their knowledge. This is the point that the great brahma Baka brahma argued with The Buddha that he lives forever. Any being has to be one or another of these 31 realms at a point of time. There is no intermediate stage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: 3. I was told that the last consciousness of a dying man gives rise to the next (relinking) consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is utterly wrong. The last consciousness is called cuti citta or dying consciousness. As soon as that consciousness disappear, there is no more being. But there are consciousness before that dying consciousness or cuti citta. They are called marana asanna javana cittas. Marana = death. Asanna = frequently arising. Javana = speedy impulse of consciousness. If these cittas are akusala, then being will be reborn in 4 woeful realms of hell, animal, peta, asurakaya. If kusala with sasankhara ( needing promptness ), will be reborn in human realm with deafness, or born blind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Isn't this contradictory to the Dependent Origination which states that when one phenomenon ceases, the other ceases too? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: D.O is always right. When there is no supportive condition, there is nothing arise which has to depend on that condition. Example: If you close your eyes, you will not see things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven 19988: Thank you very much for your time in answering my questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are many who will answer your questions. I am just one of them. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38333 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 120 ) Mike wrote: Hi Htoo, I found this a particularly useful post. Knowing the difference between pa.n.natti dhamma and parmattha dhamma as aaramma.na seems to me to be crucial to understanding the difference between jhaana and vipassanaa bhavana. Can sammaadi.t.thi ever take pa.n.natti as aaramma.na? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, it can. In which way? Here you ask sammaaditthi as the subject. This means that cittas with right understanding or cittas with pannindriya cetasikas. The problem is that you have to define 'samma-ditthi'. There are loki samma-ditthi and lokkuttara samma-ditthi. Loki samma- ditthi is any good understanding. But lokuttara samma-ditthi never takes 'pannatti'. Because samma- ditthi of that kind always always see nibbana which is a paramattha dhamma. If the yogi is seeing pannatti, this is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. This again means that if someone is absorbed in rupa jhana, he is seeing pannatti and this is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. I mean the 'panna' in jhana is not lokuttara samma-ditthi. Another definition is that samma-ditthi means understanding of 4 Noble Truths. Those who are absorbed in rupa jhana will not be seeing any Truths of Noble Ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike: Or does 'sammaadi.t.thi' refer exclusively to satipa.t.thaana or maggacitta, which can only take paramattha dhammas as aaramma.na? Thanks, mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the area that people frequently have problems. Some argue regarding samma-samadhi. Now the issue is about samma- ditthi. If say in strict term, they are only samma-ditthi and samma-samadhi of magga cittas. Not of other cittas including rupavacara rupa jhanas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38334 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 122 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread started with what dhamma means. Then it went on some background of dhammas. In Dhamma Thread (004), paramattha dhamma and its meaning is explained. Dhamma Thread (008) to Dhamma Thread (028) are all about different classifications on cittas. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121 in total in terms of their characteristics. Each citta of 89 cittas is explained in Dhamma Thread (029) to Dhamma Thread (070). So Dhamma Thread from (029) to (070) are about cittas. Dhamma Thread (071) introduces cetasika dhamma. Then each of 52 cetasikas is explained one after another. Dhamma Thread from (071) to Dhamma Thread (112) are all about cetasikas. Dhamma Thread (113) is introduction to rupa dhamma. Then each of 28 rupas is explained one after another. Dhamma Thread from (113) to (118) are all about rupas. Dhamma Thread (119) is about nibbana. Dhamma Thread (120) and (121) are about pannatti. Dhamma Thread (001) to (003) are introductory posts regarding Dhamma. Dhamma Thread (004) is about paramattha dhamma. Dhamma Thread (008) to (028) are about classifications of cittas. Dhamma Thread (029) to (070) are about cittas. Dhamma Thread (071) to (112) are about cetasikas. Dhamma Thread (113) to (118) are about rupas. Dhamma Thread (119) is about nibbana. Dhamma Thread (120) and (121) are about pannatti. All these Dhamma Threads are just introduction to Dhamma. The Buddha preached many many Dhamma. They all are finally any of these dhammas namely citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, and pannatti. When citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are ultimate realities, pannatti is not an ultimate reality. But pannati dhamma is the media. Pannatti dhamma is vehicle. Pannatti dhamma is solvent and it carries the essence. So far, pannatti dhamma is clear. Nibbana is clear. Rupa dhamma is clear. But cittas and cetasikas are hard thing to understood. Citta and cetasikas are mixed and this is known as sampayutta paccayo. It would be better to see dhamma by basing on citta so that everything will come to mind very clear. This means that there are 89 cittas and nothing more than that and any beings are finally at a point a citta out of these 89 cittas. Each citta has their specific cetasikas. This is not dictated by The Buddha or not dictated by anyone, any god or any God but this is citta niyama. Before going deep into each citta, it would be better to go on 52 cetasikas first so that when cittas are explained, they can easily be understood. This post is summarisation of posted 121 Dhamma Threads and introduction to coming Dhamma Threads. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 38335 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Dear Sukin, My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or understanding rather than the character of the object. The idea that sammaditthi is developed only after the development of a "conceptual right view" seems to lead to a stultifying intellectualism that, in practice, lends itself to development of ditthi rather than detachment and ends up obscuring the path rather than bringing it into view. The notion that intellectual understanding is a necessary precursor to direct understanding is very popular in dsg, but it is, I believe, not supported by the tipitaka. > > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct opinion. > > Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also view > concepts rightly. ;-) Of course sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly, viz. as distinct from reality. Metta, Dan 38336 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01pm Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi All (especially James), The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people (mainly teens, but a few parents). I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of James and his special skill in communicating with young people. James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young people's lives. I have uploaded the final version (both PowerPoint and Acrobat) into the files section. I will leave it there for a couple of weeks and then, in the interest of good housekeeping, I will delete it. I believe that Andrew will also be posting a copy in his Eightfold Path discussion group. Thanks again for your contributions! Now I can get back to finalizing my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" book so that it is ready for printing in early December. Metta, Rob M :-) 38337 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Woops, I meant Antony, not Andrew. Sorry, 'bout that... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people > (mainly teens, but a few parents). > > I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for > young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of > James and his special skill in communicating with young people. > James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I > genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young > people's lives. > > I have uploaded the final version (both PowerPoint and Acrobat) into > the files section. I will leave it there for a couple of weeks and > then, in the interest of good housekeeping, I will delete it. I > believe that Andrew will also be posting a copy in his Eightfold > Path discussion group. > > Thanks again for your contributions! Now I can get back to > finalizing my "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile" > book so that it is ready for printing in early December. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38338 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Hi, Dan (and Sukin) - In a message dated 11/16/04 3:36:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Sukin, > My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather > than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or > understanding rather than the character of the object. > ========================== This is a very interesting perspective to me - novel, fresh. However, much as I like it, MN 9 seems to indicate that that right view consists of the understanding (that's al it says, "understanding") of the following: 1) the wholesome and unwholesome, and their roots, 2) nutriment of all sorts, and its origin, cessation, and the path leading to that cessation, 3) the 4 noble truths, and 4) every factor of the dependent origination of suffering, it origin, cessation, and the path leading to its cessation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38339 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, One thing that will helps us both is if you would remember that I come from a practical approach to the Buddha's teachings not strictly from the suttas. With that said. You said: "S: So already the goal is quite different. For me, the goal of meditation (I prefer to use vipassana or Satipatthana instead) is to develop understanding with detachment towards whatever nama or rupa is conditioned at this moment. Otherwise, it seems to be to just be increasing attachment to a self – a self that has less tightness, less tension, less defilements, more equanimity, fewer knee-jerk reactions etc." Bhante: These are words that don't have any practical meaning to me, How is this done? Seeing that 'Suffering' and the 'Cause of Suffering' is Craving it seems to me to aware of how it arises and to let it go is the way to that "detachment" and it is the way to overcome the false idea of a (personal) 'self'. So One is actually letting go of attachment in a real sense when they let go of the craving in that moment. This letting go of craving is the way the third Noble Truth (the cessation of suffering) is experienced and the method used agrees completely with the 4th Noble Truth. Again I am again talking about direct experience not philosophical concepts. You said: "S: Surely this is thinking about dependent origination? Let’s take the first factor of avijja (ignorance). Is there any direct understanding of the mental factor of avijja when it arises at the present moment? Bhante: No actually it is talking about experiencing dependent origination and thinking about it. According to the text what is ignorance? Isn't it the seeing directly the 4 Noble Truths? Above I have shown how this takes place. Also, when talking about the 4 Noble Truths the Buddha wasn't talking about the 'Cause of suffering' being ignorance. In a general sense what you are saying is true and I am talking about an experiential sense. Craving must be recognized when it arises and through my own direct experience, I have seen that right after a feeling arises, the craving arises and it always manifests as a subtle tightness or tension somewhere in the mind and body. Only then does clinging arise (and clinging can be recognized as the thoughts, concepts and ideas about that feeling). So when the meditator sees this tightness or tension and they relax and let it go, then there is no clinging. Mind becomes very clear and very alert, mind also experiences a calmness - this is the mind that is brought back to the meditation object. The releasing of the craving (or the tightness in both mind and body) is the main difference between what the Buddha taught and the other meditation practices of his day. Also, there is very sharp mindfulness present in order to see this process arise and pass away. Of course this does lead the meditator to the experience of jhana and as I have tried to show in past posts one does have deep insights arise while they are in the jhanas. You said: "S: I'm not sure I follow what this tightness is. For example, when one has a tension headache, the physical sensations such as heat or hardness or pressure are quite distinct from the experience of such and quite different again from the attachment. Also the ‘I don’t like it’ aversion is different again. Of course, as you suggest, they are connected in various ways, but I think they still have to be known as different conditioned dhammas. As we read in the suttas, for example in those on the khandhas in SN, all dhammas are taken for self in various ways. Perhaps you are rightly implying that the false ideas arise with attachment only." Bhante: Having a headache arise is very different from what I am talking about. If a headache arises then that persons mindfulness has not been very alert (at that time) and their insights into the true nature of existence are rather weak (this is not a put down or criticism but a way of showing the differences between what you are saying and what I am trying to get across). I am talking about a very subtle tightness that can be seen when the meditator practices the Mindfulness of Breathing technique like the sutta tells us to. By that I mean to tranquilize the bodily formation on the in breath and to tranquilize the bodily formation on the out breath. When this is done the meditator will begin to see this subtle mental fist in their head and mind and begin to let it go. Now let us get back to a headache (which I have not had in many years, by the way). If a person is truly aware of "HOW" mind moves from one object to another, they will begin to see clearly the process of having a sense door (Say body) and that consciousness arises, next a feeling arises and in this case it is a painful feeling. Next craving arises (as a tension or 'I don't like this feeling') and then subtle thoughts about not wanting that pain to be there. This happens many times before the pain becomes a full blown conscious headache. So when a person is familiar of this process they then notice that subtle tightness starting to grow and they relax both their mind and body. When they notice it again they do the same thing again, and again, and again until that tightness doesn't arise anymore. This is suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and they way leading to the cessation of suffering and this is happening many times. Each time a person does this they are gaining insight into "HOW" this process of dependent origination aqctually works. You said: "S: I would change this around a little to say that the false idea of a personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that this false idea can be known." Bhante: Here we basically agree but I would not use the "eradicate". Because this process most be seen many, many, many thousands or millions of times before the idea of a personal self is eradicated. We could say that it is let go of temporarily and ones insights become much deeper each time one learns to let go and relax. Again, I am talking about things that can be seen experientially and directly by one who practices meditation in the way the Buddha taught, not a commentary (that either forgets this important step of tranquilizing on the in and out breath, or ignores it completely). I look forward to many good discussions in the future and if I can find the time I will take your suggestion about reading past posts. Thank you for telling me about them. Maha-Metta Always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38340 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five Visions of a Dying Man Dhamma Greetings Steve, What Htoo said was basically correct but I might add something. When the dying person sees a dead relative right before they die, it does depend on what they see them doing at that time. If the dying person sees one of their relatives offering food to monks or being very kind and helpful to someone then they may be reborn into the human realm. But if the dying person saw their relative killing an animal or person then they may be reborn in the peta realm. Hope this is helpful. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38341 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Dhamma Greetings Dan, Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38342 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Vism.XIV,114 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 114. (b) When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-liking it may be, the same kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as 'life-continuum' consciousness with that same object; and again those same kinds.44 And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river.45 This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of] consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. ------------------------ Note 44. ' "With that same object": if kamma is the life-continuum's object, then it is that kamma; if the sign of the kamma, or the sign of the destiny, then it is one of those' (Pm. 478). Note 45. ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact, thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). The word 'bhava.nga' appears in this sense only in the Pa.t.thaana (See Tika-Pa.t.thaana, P.T.S. ed., pp. 159, 169, 324). For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). 38343 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. > I have some questions, If I may. When you said that 'The compulsion > to investigate' The question is to investigate what? The comulsion to investigate paramattha dhammas, usually translated as ultimate realities, though some here don't seem to like that term. As we know, this "investigation of realities" is one of the factors of awakening. Again this is a point of disagreement for some, but it seems clear to me that there is value in considering these points intellectually, that this can condition a deeper, directer understanding. I gave the example of Larry and Howard, who investigate very asutely and in a very persistent way thought intellect, as well, of course, as having other aspects to their practice such as meditation (in Howard's case, at least - I don't know about Larry) and satipatthana in daily life. (I assume) It wasn't my intention to talk about others' practices. My point is that there are many ways to investigate realities. Hopefully we will have direct understanding of them, but that is not something to expect soon. It took the Buddha countless lives to achieve his awakening. I think we should be modest in our expectations. As , the Venerable Dhammadhara ( one of the leading teachers in the tradition that is behind the foundation of this group) puts it, we should consider ourselves wealthy indeed if we have one moment of true sati in one lifetime. So first the intellectual investigation. It needn't be addictive. It needn't distract us from the true path. It can be a part of the true path, a condition for deeper understanding, and healing, and ultimate liberation. >And because I come > from an experiential background of meditation my answer would be - to > investigate "HOW" the process of arising phenomena arise and "HOW" they > disappear. The way that this is done is by watching intently "HOW" these > phenomena arise and when this is done with clear comprehension one can > see that there is a definite process that takes place. Phil: Yes, this is what we need to do. But, respectfully, the clear comprehension you speak of gaining through meditation is something that is rare and will in all likelihood take many lifetimes. Personally, I find reading about conditions (not only Dependent Arising but also the relational conditions such as proximate condition and natural decisive support condition and others) and reflecting on them, and *just* begining to see them at work in daily life is what helps me to understand that there is no self that can control these processes. I'm afraid that with my accumulations, if I were to meditate seriously now it would be all about self trying to gain something. That does not apply to everyone. That is just me. We all have different conditions, different accumulations that make various kinds of practices best for us. >That process is > the arising of dependent origination. It seems to me that everything that > does arise takes place in exactly the same way (when seen through the > eyes of Dependent Arising). So, when you say "I seem so happy to let > things fall easily." What you are saying is that you are not interested > enough to see "HOW" this process actually works. And that is fine, no > problem, we do the things that interest us the most. (This is not a > criticizes of you or the way you do things, just an observation). To let > things "fall easily" might be another way of getting caught in the False > Belief of a self, which leads to more dukkha. Phil: That was careless wording on my part. With "Let things fall" I was referring to debates or discussion points that are difficult to grasp at first glance, not to the falling away of dhammas. I'm defintely interested in the latter. As described above. The arising of any mental moment (citta) is conditioned by the falling away of the previous one, as well as other conditions, so "happy to let things fall easily" is not referring to this. Dhammas fall away beyond our control But yes, I'm happy to let debates and discussions fall away. I don't think there can be winners or losers in most dhammas discussions, because we all practice according to our conditions. You'll find that in this group there are many people who do not place emphasis on meditation. I'm one of those. But I always do appreciate hearing about other ways of practice. > When you say ." Mean the paramattha dhamma vs. the concept, the feeling > vs the thinking about the feeling? "Detachment is not particularly > interested." > > *Bhante V* > > When one is thinking about a feeling they have already had craving and > clinging arise. The clinging being all of the thoughts about the feeling > and the want to control the feeling with one's thoughts. So Dukkha has > already arisen and this clouds the way we can perceive whatever has > arisen. When ones wise attention has seen "HOW" these things have arisen > it is then easier to let go. Phil: We wil always have clinging and attachment, until we become arahants, I think. Most of the desire (lobha) is not harmful, but allows us to function in daily life. Yes, when we see *how* things arise, it is easier to let go. I used to hold on to my anger for days and days. Hold on to grudges. Of course I still do at times - progress is gradual. But understanding how conditions work, even intellectually, is so helpful. The person who made me angry does not exist in absolute terms. There are only nama and rupa, rising and falling due to conditions. To directly understand this will probably take countless lifetimes, but even understanding it intellectually is so helpful! Again, I appreciate that you don't place an emphasis on Abhidhamma, but there are so many ways to seek detachment. That is the wondrous thing about the Buddha's teaching! He saw into everybody's mind and taught them according to their accumulations. Thank you again for your kind feedback. I can feel the sincere concern that you have for people's wellbeing. I'm sure you are a wonderful teacher. Metta, Phil p.s rather busy these days. Hello in passing to Jon and Larry and Nina. Still wanting to get back to you. 38344 From: Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114 Hi Nina, What is a dream? Larry -------------------- Note 45 ...snip... For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). 38345 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I wanted you to know that I checked out your web site and downloaded your two manuals on meditation. I began the mindfulness of breathing meditation in the manner that you suggest and have found excellent results so far. I have been following the method as taught by the Buddha which you elucidate: 1. Breathe in and out and make a mental note regarding if the breath is long or short; 2. Breath in and out feeling the entire body; 3. Breathe in and out tranquilizing the entire body. What a difference it makes!! The mind becomes clearer much more quickly, the meditation is more enjoyable, and there is increased energy during and after the meditation. I used to follow the S.N. Goenka method of focusing on the nostrils and scanning the body for sensations. It was somewhat effective but not to the degree of the Buddha's original method. As simple as the Buddha's instructions seem, they are very, very effective! I have been reading your correspondence with Sarah with great interest. You wrote, The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I can understand your enthusiasm for this lost step, because I now have it also, but I don't think that tranquilizing the body is the ultimate goal of meditation. I wouldn't even say that tranquilizing the body will directly lead to the end of craving, as you also suggest. If that were true, we could all just take a tranquilizer and become enlightened! ;-)). But, mindfulness and concentration, done while the body is relaxed and free from muscle tension, could very well be the key…at least it appears that that is what the Buddha taught. Metta, James 38346 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All (especially James), > > The talk went extremely well last night. There were about 60 people > (mainly teens, but a few parents). > > I was asked how I could put together such a good presentation for > young people when I normally taught adults. I told the audience of > James and his special skill in communicating with young people. > James, I can't thank you enough for the help that you gave. I > genuinely believe that, as a team, we may have touched some young > people's lives. Friend Rob M., Sure, no problem. I think that most of the kudos should go to you. Excellent job! Metta, James 38347 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi A quick p.s to my previous note. After sending that message to you I took a bath and as I soaked I thought about the implications of a rank beginner like myself discussing dhamma with an ordained monk like yourself! What impudence, I thought. On the other hand, I thought, maybe it is best to remember that right understanding rises in moments rather than weeks or months or years, so while it is far, far more likely that your right understanding will correct my views, there may also arise moments in which I could help you! This was another reminder that in absolute terms there is no Bhante and Phil, but only nama and rupa rising and falling due to conditions. Remembering this, my sense of regret at being impudent fell away and there was metta. And then this remembering of rupa and nama fell away and I was back to your being an ordained monk with great experience and insight and my being a rank beginner, with all that implies. Which is in this case gratitude that I am able to discuss dhamma with a venerable monk! Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta > > > > Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi > > Thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. > 38348 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Phil, ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta > These days it seems to me that yoniso manasikaara is coming up > all the time in suttas that I respond to. It seems to me from what > I'm understanding these days that it is at the arising of manasikaara > that there is the pivotal moment. When we have wise attention to > the attractive object, we do not get swept away in lobha > proliferation (can that be said) and if there is wise attention to > the unpleasant object, we do not get swept away in dosa cittas. > > It is yoniko manasikaara that stops proliferation, and panna that... > > I see in CMA that "the proximate cause is wise attention." I've just finished a thorough reading of the copy of CMA that Jon and Sarah gave me in Bangkok in December of 2001. I've used it as a reference ever since but have only recently read it cover to cover, on my bus ride to work in the mornings. When finished, I picked up Rupert Gethin's 'Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma etc.', published the next year by PTS--I think I got it as my free book with my annual dues (a bonus I can't recommend highly enough). Gethin's text is an edition of a translation by R.P. Wijeratne, who, by the way, mentions in his original preface "My thanks are also due to Mr. Jonathan Abbot for having sent me the Thai edition of the atthayojana to the .tiikaa..."--Anumodanaa, Jon. Anyway, yonisoo manasikaara is very important, I think. Wijeratne/Gethin's translation (often very different from what we're used to) is 'clear bringing to mind'. They write: "...the wholesome, etc., state of the wholesome and unwholesome is dependent on clear and unclear bringing to mind [respectively]. Hence it is said, 'To one who brings [things] to mind clearly, Monks, wholesome dhammas that have not arisen arise, and wholesome dhammas that have arisen increase.'*" An interesting reflection on sammaavaayaama, I think. I haven't had time yet to compare this to the CMA translation but thought you'd find it interesting, Phil. Thanks for the reminder. mike *A I 12. 38349 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Robert, This is the way it seems to me too, also for the khandhas etc. Kusala kamma is common (thought rare relative to akusala) to all religions and to atheism too. Leads to the relentless snare of rebirth-linking nevertheless, unfortunately. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:40 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" > > > Dear Ken, > I think that those of other traditions can perform (conventionally) > selfless acts. > > But because only a Buddha can teach anatta they cannot develop > penetrative insight into the four noble truths and paticcasamuppada. > > I think they can develop most types of right view too- related to > kamma . But they can't develop vipassana. > > > Robertk 38350 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contradiction between Bhikkhu Bodhi ’s CMA and Visuddhimagga? Dear Rob M, op 16-11-2004 08:28 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Nina, am I correct in interpreting the text as saying that very > desirable and very undesirable is always associated with body door > whereas the slightly desirable and slightly undesirable are > associated with objects from the other doors? N: No, also with the other sense-doors. Very desirable: seeing the colour of a Buddha. Very undesirable: seeing the colour of something very filthy. But as to feeling, the feeling is indifferent, except for the investigating-consciousness which takes that same object, as you know. When it is very desirable its accompanying feeling is pleasant. All these moments are very short. Different feelings arise because of the proper conditions. R: For example, remember > the cotton ball (derived rupas) and anvil (primary rupas) > explanation of why impingement on the sense door results in > pleasurable / painful feeling whereas all other impingements result > in neutral feeling in the sense-consciousness cittas N: True, feeling accompanying body-consciousness is always either painful or pleasant. (You mean by sense door: body-door). If I am not clear, please continue. Nina. 38351 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Nina and all, Thanks for the reply. However, there is conflict here. "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" Chapter V, p204, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (published in 1995 April) and "Introducing the Higher Teaching of the Buddha: Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science"(printed by Fo Guang Shan Malaysia at Nov 2002, revised edition of "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma") by Dr Mehm Tin Mon Chapter V, p194. have different statement. The earlier book follows the statement in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada (published in Malaysia 1987), Chapter III, p169 but the later book defute the idea. I have asked Dr. Mehm Tin Mon about it and he said the later is the correct one. It is because the seventh javana has the accumulate support from all the previous six javanas. As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I don't have the English version copy, so I can't show Dr. Mehm about it. I will show the "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada to Dr. Mehm tonight. (I am currently attending his abhidhamma class in Brickfields, KL). By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the strongness of the janvana? Thank you, Nina. With best regards, Lee 38352 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:58pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard, -------------- H: > Ken, you say that the practice consists of "In a moment when panna arises to know an arisen dhamma, there is right understanding, right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. In other words, there is right practice, satipatthana." What you have described is an event, something happening, namely pa~n~na arising. What makes that practice? -------------- I think it is called the practice, rather than the end result, because it is not yet the way out of samsara. It is not the Ariyan Eightfold Path, but it is the practice that leads to the Path. It reveals the unsatisfactoriness and soullessness of conditioned reality, and this eventually conditions dispassion and renunciation. They in turn condition knowledge of Nibbana and the Ariyan Eightfold Path. So renunciation and Path-consciousness are the 'end results' (pativedha, penetration of the Dhamma) whereas satipatthana is the practice (patipatti) and the three forms of study are the preliminary requirements (pariyatti). ------------------------------ H: > That's like saying that practicing to play a violin is "At the time one tucks a violin under one's chin and applies the bow, music arises". > ------------------------------ My description of Dhamma practice was in terms of paramattha dhammas. After deleting several attempts, I have to admit I don't know how to describe violin practice in the same way. It is traditionally associated with aversion, but, for the mature student, attachment would be more likely. I dare say it could also occur with kusala consciousness and even with direct knowledge of a paramattha dhamma (e.g., audible object or hearing). In other words, there can be Dhamma practice and violin practice at the same time. ----------------- H: > What actions lead to the arising of the pa~n~na? > ----------------- I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. -------------------------------- H: > The setting up of conditions that lead to the arising of wisdom is what constitutes practice, Ken. The arising of wisdom is the *result* of practice. > -------------------------------- To make a difficult topic even more difficult, we are applying the same terminology to different things. In my opinion, the suttas describe satipatthana as 'practice' and they describe study as a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices that condition the end result. --------------- H: > It seems to me that the *only* practice you countenance is study. --------------- That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are the only preconditions for satipatthana. But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a self who could do something now and benefit from it later). If there is no satipatthana now, that is probably because the necessary study has not been done. That is part of the Buddha's description of the present moment, which it is all we need to know. -------------- H: > I insist on no such thing. What I insist on is that practice consists of volitional action. If there is no such thing, then there is no practice and no Dhamma. There is nothing but good or bad luck, requiring nothing of us, for volition is non-existent. You appear to be a devote' of randomness, it seems to me. -------------- But no one has suggested that panna arises in the absence of volition. Nor has anyone suggested that the other three factors-for- enlightenment arise in the absence of volition. However, volition is a conditioned dhamma - there is no self that controls it. The Buddha taught the Dhamma and, in my opinion, all we need to do is to locate that teaching, hear it and understand it. I think the onus is on you to explain how volition adds another dimension. Why do we need, not only to understand the Dhamma, but also to perform certain actions? ------------------------ H: > > >To expect new > results without new conditions is ... odd. > > > > >---------------------;---- > KH: > > I agree: we should be wary of thinking of panna as vipaka. It is not > a sense object that is experienced by virtue of past kamma: it is a > volitional sankhara. > > ------------------------------------------ H: > Fascinating! So you claim that pa~n~na is unconditioned. It does not arise from causes. It is another nibbana! (Or, calling it a "volitional sankhara", you think that pa~n~na can be directly willed, an opposite sort of extreme view, giving too much power to cetana.) > ------------------------------------------- I can see that my statement was a bit obscure, but I can't see how you interpreted it the way you have. Let's skip it. Thanks for your other, more recent, message. I want to reply to it, but I am going away again. So, if I don't get around to it today there might be another long delay. Kind regards, Ken H 38353 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:46pm Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Ken > > I think the humble beginner would be doing well to have one moment > of satipatthana in a lifetime. On the other hand, the ariyan monks > described in the Satipatthana Sutta seemed to practice satipatthana > wherever they were and whatever they were doing. > > I think you and I agree that satipatthana would not have stopped > those monks from paying full attention to their activities. They > would not have felt obliged to > note, "seeing" "hearing" "walking" "talking" "bending" "lifting" and > so on. > > Imagine doing that while you are trying to teach a class! In my > experience, that sort of mindfulness makes it nearly > impossible to perform ordinary duties. Worse still, it is an > imitation of satipatthana based on a wrong understanding of the > Dhamma. Ph: I agree with you. The other day Christine asked about which sutta we would like to fully understand, or words to that effect. I would have answered the very first sutta, in which the Buddha lays out the Four Noble Truths, or the Satipatthana Sutta. It seems to me to be very easy to misunderstand. Surely the Buddha did not intend people to be behaving in an unnatural way. I think part of the Middle Way is the middle way between being caught up and swept away by following conditioned habits, and behaving in an overtly intentional way that might appear to stamp them out but which would result in this person walking through life thnking "I am walking" all the time. The Buddha didn't want that, or so I believe. > ------------------ > Ph: > As we know, K Sujin's teaching of Abhidhamma stresses the > rarity of the arising of understanding of realities. > > ------------------ > > It would be good to understand why it is rare. That would certainly > be more constructive than wanting it to be frequent. Ph: Yes. There are so many conditions involved in a moment of kusala. They are laid out somewhere by Nina in a post I have re-read recently. So many necessary conditions. This discourages us from predicting kusala, and it discourages us from thinking of the wholesome moments as something we are responsible for. > ----------- > Ph: > I think that approach is helpful for conditioning patience. On > the other hand, it seems to this beginner that understanding can > arise in a more shallow and yet still helpful way day in day out, > perhaps many times during a busy day. There are degrees of panna. > And degrees of "practice?" > > ----------- > > Yes, but satipatthana occurs in the natural course of daily life. If > we have any ideas of a special, preparatory, state of mind then we > have not listened to, and wisely considered, the Dhamma. That will > mean the conditions for satipatthana are not present. Ph: I agree with you. But I would also say that there is more than one way to "wisely consider the Dhamma". It depends on our accumulations, on conditions. For you and I and others, there are not conditions in this lifetime (yet, or no longer) for formal meditation/seeking jhanas, for example. For other people, including some DSG members, those conditions are there. I don't think we should assume that a tradition based on dry insight in daily life based on an appreciation of Abhidhamma is the only right way to wisely consider the Dhamma. The Buddha had wondrous insight into people's accumulations, and taught in different ways, accordingly. Metta, Phil 38354 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:40pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 51-Feeling/Vedana (x) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Since there is such a variety of feelings, it is useful to know more classifications of feeling. Feelings can be classified by way of contact through the six doors of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. Cittas experience objects through six doors and through these doors pleasant and unpleasant objects are experienced. On account of a pleasant object there is often lobhamúla- citta which can be accompanied by somanassa or upekkhå, and on account of an unpleasant object there is often dosa-múlacitta which is accompanied by domanassa. If we understand that the experience of pleasant and unpleasant objects and the different feelings which arise on account of them are conditioned we will attach less importance to the kind of feeling which arises at a particular moment. The experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses is vipåka conditioned by kamma, and the kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising on account of the objects which are experienced are conditioned by our accumulated tendencies. There is no self who can exercise power over any reality which arises, there are only nåma and rúpa which arise because of conditions. Sometimes there are conditions for indifferent feeling, sometimes for pleasant feeling, sometimes for unpleasant feeling (1). *** 1) Feelings can be classified in several more ways. See Kindred Sayings IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Feeling, §22, where feelings are classified as hundred and eight. ****** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38355 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The > false > idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are > lesser > eradications to be accomplished before that. .... Like which? Attachment to sensuous clinging is only eradicated by an anagami and so is aversion. Other wrong views, envy, stinginess, killing, stealing and the intention to or actual breaking of the other precepts are only eradicated when self-view is eradicated at stream-entry. It may seem in this life that there may not be any inclination towards certain kinds of intention or behaviour, but the latent tendency is there, waiting for an opportunity, maybe next life......While there are wrong views being accumulated about good and bad, about wrong practice, about kamma or lack of kamma, anything is possible, I think. With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. Metta, Sarah ======= 38356 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, Thanks for following the thread. You responded to the same comment of mine as Howard did. --- ericlonline wrote: > It says in the suttas that the conceit I AM is > the last to go before awakening. I dont see how you > can get rid of it first thru any mental gymnastics? .... S: I agree. Mental gymnastics definitely won't do the trick! Mana (conceit) is only eradicated by the arahant as you suggest. However, the wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotapanna (or rather by the sotapatti magga citta to be more precise). I think it's important to be clear that conceit and self-view (sakkaya ditthi) are different mental factors that arise at different moments, even though both are rooted in lobha (attachment). For example, now there can be conceit if we think another friend's posts are wiser or less wise than our own or even when there is just a kind of dwelling on another's without any obvious comparison. When we think a post is too long or should be trimmed or the tone could be improved, there may be a kind of idea behind our thinking that 'I could do better'. It doesn't mean there is necessarily any self-view at such times. Mana is very, very common, I find. .... > What knows this false idea of self Sarah? Is it not > just another contrary no-self idea? ... Panna (understanding) can know it when it arises. Like now, is there any idea of 'me' writing or seeing, or 'my' arm or body which is really seen? Is there an idea that I can 'do' something to develop sati, to have more wholesome states arise? Like any other dhamma, sakkaya ditthi has its characteristic which can be known. I think that panna has to see more and more subtle ways that sakkaya ditthi arises such as trying to pinpoint or find a particular dhamma like visible object or hardness, trying to repeat a moment of awareness and so on. This is why the conceptual understanding of realities and of awareness has to be vwery firm, otherwise 'Self' will follow the wrong path now or later. We discussed this a lot in India. .... > Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I would say that by considering, reflecting and discussing more about the various realities that are taken for 'I AM', insight will grow as you suggest. Thx for your comments, Eric. Look forward to more;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 38357 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Thanks for the reply. However, there is conflict here. > > "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" Chapter V, p204, by Dr. Mehm Tin > Mon (published in 1995 April) and "Introducing the Higher Teaching of > the Buddha: Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science"(printed by Fo Guang > Shan Malaysia at Nov 2002, revised edition of "The Essence of Buddha > Abhidhamma") by Dr Mehm Tin Mon Chapter V, p194. have different > statement. The earlier book follows the statement in "A Manual of > Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by Ven. Narada (published in Malaysia > 1987), Chapter III, p169 but the later book defute the idea. I have > asked Dr. Mehm Tin Mon about it and he said the later is the correct > one. It is because the seventh javana has the accumulate support from > all the previous six javanas. > > As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu > Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I > don't have the English version copy, so I can't show Dr. Mehm about > it. I will show the "A Manual of Abhidhamma" 4th Revised Edition by > Ven. Narada to Dr. Mehm tonight. (I am currently attending his > abhidhamma class in Brickfields, KL). > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the > strongness of the janvana? I might be able to help here. Vism XIX, 14 describes four classes of kamma: 1. To be experienced here and now 2. To be experienced on rebirth 3. To be experienced in some subsequent becoming 4. Lapsed (ahosi) kamma The Vism clearly states that the first javana gives rise to the first type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it arising in this lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. The Vism also states that the seventh javana gives rise to the second type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it arising in the subsequent lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. The Vism also states the middle five javanas give rise to the third type of kamma, which never becomes lapsed kamma. A similar description can be found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini (ancient commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha) by Sumangala. Does it make sense that the 7th javana that creates kamma that can only ripen in the subsequent lifetime (otherwise it becomes defunct) is stronger than the middle five javanas that create kamma that "can produce results of its occurence for even a hundred births" [quote is from the Abhidhammatthavibhavini]? Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry that I am too busy to attend Dr. Mon's classes. My wife is on a 10 day retreat, so I am doubly busy. 38358 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does > that > > awareness develop? > > Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when > the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. ….. The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is thought about rightly or wrongly. From Sammohavinodani, Classification of Truths, 522 “Since it is impossible to tell it [all] without remainder by showing each kind even [doing so] for many aeons, the Blessed One therefore said: ‘In short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering.’in order to show that all that suffering is in any of the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging in the same way as the taste of water in the whole of the ocean is to be found in a single drop of water.” ….. > "Deeply believes"? Do you mean that the mind grasps onto the idea of > a 'someone' at all times? …. S: Even when there isn’t an idea of Self or Someone whilst reflecting or performing great merit, it’s there as a firmly rooted latent tendency, arising before and afterwards, motivating the deeds and actions all the time when we haven't heard and considered the Dhamma. There’s the idea that this is the way I’m reflecting or performing dana or paying respect and so on. …. <…> > > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or > the > > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that > arises > > having heard about these realities that counts. > > That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could > accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. …. S: I’m sure I didn’t put it this way;-) I’m sure I said or implied that without conversation one couldn’t assess or have any idea. This doesn’t mean that with conversation one will know at all. It depends on many factors, least of all one’s own very limited understanding. In the suttas we read about even arahants who could only make such assessments after conversing with each other. ….. > > > No. I'm using "moment" as a gloss for nama. > > … > > S: You were talking about awareness of the `present moment'. So > does this > > mean there can only be and should only be awareness of namas? > > Sarah, a lot has been snipped, but I was just trying to construct a > single, simple example. The example needn't include all possibilities. …. S: So when you talk about awareness of the ‘present moment’, do you mean ‘moment as a gloss for any nama or rupa’ now? If so, how do we learn what any nama or rupa is? …. > > > > > The first noble truth of suffering refers to conditioned mind > > > states, > > > > > all of which have the characteristics of anicca, anatta, and > > > dukkha. > > > > …. > > > > S: Only mind states? Are you sure? > > …. > > S: Still waiting for an answer to this one…. > > It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very > attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless > discussion about it. …. S: On the contrary, I’m very interested to know what you mean by ‘mind states’ here as I think it’s important to get this clear. Do you or do you not take the first noble truth of suffering to refer to not only cetasikas (mind or mental states), but also to cittas and rupas, i.e the 5 (upadana) khandhas ? …… > No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of > the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is > wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is > direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! …. S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual trainging, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each moment of ‘giving ear’, or would the conceptual right view whilst listening and considering be a ‘right’ condition for awareness to arise and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the first three factors right or wrong? [SN 55, 55-61 “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom,…to the growth of wisdom,….to the expansion of wisdom,…to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,…to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma…….”] Dan, as I understand it, the entire tipitaka and commentaries are about pariyatti., aabout helping us to develop a firm intellectual right understanding in order for patipatti or satipatthana to develop. Otherwise, why would the Buddha have bothered to teach at all? Why do we both to read or discuss these teachings? If we think it’s helpful to study and listen to the Buddha’s teachings, it shows that we see the value in having a firm and correct conceptual framework for sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path to develop. As you say, this is a popular view on DSG – indeed we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t see the value of considering and reflecting a lot on what has been taught for our benefit. There are many Buddhist groups who don't see any value in reading, considering and discussing the Dhamma at all, but I know you also share a lot of confidence in the value of wise reflection to condition direct understanding too. And no, I don’t see metta, dana or reflections on the Triple Gem as being *either* morally wrong or incorrect whenever the cittas are wholesome. Do you really see any conceptual right view arising with or about them as 'incorrect'? If we reflect wisely and rightly now on any aspect of the Dhamma, is it 'incorrect'? Metta, Sarah ===== 38359 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:50am Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > For you and I and others, there are not conditions in this > lifetime (yet, or no longer) for formal meditation/seeking jhanas, for > example. > For other people, including some DSG members, those conditions are there. >++++++++++++ Dear Phil, Many people think they have jhanas who are clearly deluded about this. It is not wrong to encourage people to strive for the path of direct insight, this is clearly put forward in the Theravada. Now is the time in the sasana where any who attain will go by insight alone; this is explained in several atthakattha and also nettipakkarana. We should not underestimate how easy it is for silabattaparamasa to seem like right pratice. Robertk 38360 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Lee & RobM, I'm out of time - so just briefly: --- robmoult wrote: > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about > the > > strongness of the janvana? > > I might be able to help here. > > Vism XIX, 14 describes four classes of kamma: > 1. To be experienced here and now > 2. To be experienced on rebirth > 3. To be experienced in some subsequent becoming > 4. Lapsed (ahosi) kamma > > The Vism clearly states that the first javana gives rise to the > first type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it > arising in this lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. > > The Vism also states that the seventh javana gives rise to the > second type of kamma, but if no conditions arise to support it > arising in the subsequent lifetime, then it becomes laspsed kamma. > > The Vism also states the middle five javanas give rise to the third > type of kamma, which never becomes lapsed kamma. > > A similar description can be found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini > (ancient commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha) by Sumangala. ... Also, see ch5 in the commentary to the Abhidammatthasangaha, (PTS tarnsl) if you have it for lots more detail too. It also says the same. I understand that the middle five javanas only bring results in subsequent becomings (not this life or next) because they are already 'covered' by the first and last javana cittas which have the same nature and function. > Does it make sense that the 7th javana that creates kamma that can > only ripen in the subsequent lifetime (otherwise it becomes defunct) > is stronger than the middle five javanas that create kamma that "can > produce results of its occurence for even a hundred births" [quote > is from the Abhidhammatthavibhavini]? ... S: I don't think so. It's 'completing' the javana series, the 'concluding volition' and so I understand it to be weaker. However, one has to read carefully. In the commentary it says: "Certainly the occasion for [kamma] to be experienced subsequently [in the existence] immediately following decease, but the teachers say that when there is relinking, [kamma] produces the results of its occurrence for even a hundred births..." Hmmm....there's never anything easy about kamma and I've reached my little limit here;-). Lee, good to hear from you again - please write more often and give us any answers as well as further questions! Metta, Sarah p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha which followed several discussions in India. ======== 38361 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? With Metta, Htoo Naing 38362 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 123 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas in total. But not to confuse you, there is no storehouse for such cetasikas as all these are nama dhamma. There is no cetasika stock at all. But whenever there are conditions for their arising then they have to arise with citta. Once I have classified 52 cetasikas into 4 different groups. They are 1. 7 permanent ministers of the king citta or 7 universal mental factors. It is called sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas. 2. 6 flexible ministers of the king citta or 6 particular mental factors. It is called pakinnaka cetasikas. But both 7 permanent ministers and 6 flexible ministers are all flexible cetasikas. This means that they agree with citta. If citta is kusala, they become kusala, and if akusala, they are akusala, if abyakata they are abyakata. But as 7 cetasikas always arise with each of 89 cittas, they are given a separate name 'permanent ministers'. 3. 14 destructive ministers of the king citta or 14 unwholesome mental factors or 14 akusala cetasikas. 4. 25 constructive ministers of the king citta or 25 beautiful mental factors or 25 sobhana cetasikas. So there are 7, 6, 14, and 25 altogether 52 cetasikas. 7 permanent ministers or sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas are 1.phassa or contact 2.vedana or feeling 3.sanna or perception 4.cetana or volition 5.ekaggata or one-pointedness 6.jivitindriya or mental life 7.manasikara or attention. All these 7 cetasikas arise with each and every citta of 89 cittas. When a citta arises, they all arise together and when the citta falls away, they all fall away together. All these 7 cetasikas take the same object of the citta and they all depend on the same vatthu when being is in pancavokara bhumis. So whenever a citta is talked, it is accompanied by at least these 7 cetasikas. The examples cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas. All 10 cittas have only 7 cetasikas and no other cetasika. This again will be discussed on coming citta portion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. Example is 'pancavokara bhumis' 38363 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:33am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 52 to Page 58 are ready Dear Dhamma Friends, Patthana Dhamma are explained as clearly as possible. To view from the beginning please go to the site linked below. www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html New pages that have not been announced are www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana52.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana53.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana54.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana55.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana56.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana57.html www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana58.html So far, hetu paccaya or root conditions, arammana paccaya or object conditions and some parts of adhipati paccaya have been discussed in those pages of 'Patthana Dhamma' at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html site. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... PS: Any queries 'that you have' regarding above 58 web pages may be posted to JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group, Triplegem Yahoo Group, dhamma-list Yahoo Group, dhammastudygroup Yahoo Group, TeachingsOfBuddha Yahoo Group, and SariputtaDhamma Yahoo Group. 38364 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > H: >What actions lead to the arising of the pa~n~na? > > ----------------- > > I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, > insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the > reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the > briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing > forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I > wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in > satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas > then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the > arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises > independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. > ========================= I said nothing of "personal involvement" or "self". I spoke of action (kamma). Practice is a volitional activity, it is cetana in action. If that can only mean to you the acting of some alleged self, that is not my problem, because that is not my perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38365 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:11am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > To make a difficult topic even more difficult, we are applying the > same terminology to different things. In my opinion, the suttas > describe satipatthana as 'practice' and they describe study as > a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. > You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end > result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices > that condition the end result. > ========================== No. Satipatthana, the setting up, or establishing, of mindfulness is a practice. Vipassana is its consequence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38366 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:14am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > --------------- > H: >It seems to me that the *only* practice you countenance is > study. > --------------- > > That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far > as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are > the only preconditions for satipatthana. > > ======================== Okay, then. If mine is a "fair comment", then I stand by my characterization of yours being a one-fold path. However, you conflate satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, with vipassana, its consequencel. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38367 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a > self who could do something now and benefit from it later). ===================== It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with a "self". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38368 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/17/04 1:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > But no one has suggested that panna arises in the absence of > volition. Nor has anyone suggested that the other three factors-for- > enlightenment arise in the absence of volition. However, volition is > a conditioned dhamma - there is no self that controls it. > ======================= So what? I don't maintain otherwise! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38369 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi again, Ken - I replied to your post in bits and pieces, thinking that such an approach might be a useful experiment. My thought was that it might direct my attention and yours and others to compact pieces of material. Please let me know whether you would prefer in the future that I reply, instead, all in a single post. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38370 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/17/04 3:07:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Sarah, with respect, I believe that is surely incorrect. The > >false > >idea of atta is eradicated only with stream entry. Surely there are > >lesser > >eradications to be accomplished before that. > .... > Like which? Attachment to sensuous clinging is only eradicated by an > anagami and so is aversion. > > Other wrong views, envy, stinginess, killing, stealing and the intention > to or actual breaking of the other precepts are only eradicated when > self-view is eradicated at stream-entry. > > It may seem in this life that there may not be any inclination towards > certain kinds of intention or behaviour, but the latent tendency is there, > waiting for an opportunity, maybe next life......While there are wrong > views being accumulated about good and bad, about wrong practice, about > kamma or lack of kamma, anything is possible, I think. > > With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no > way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication > of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding > the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial uprootings and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. This is the reason for sila and samadhi. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38371 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah (and Dan) - In a message dated 11/17/04 4:30:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. > ======================= How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a cessation? The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38372 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings James, When I said, "The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I was not only talking about the physical body but both the mind and body. And when I said the above I was referring to the letting go of craving which when done often enough leads to the complete cessation of craving and suffering. In the Anapanasati Sutta in the later section it says to tranquilize the mental formations on the in breath and the out breath. Since you are starting to practice the meditation in the sutta way, please remember that this is done not only while formerly sitting in meditation but it is to be done with daily activities. This becomes a truly amazing process this way. Sometimes coming back to the breath and relaxing for just one or two times brings great relief. When I first started doing this practice, I really did it as much as possible even during daily activities and I saw for myself that every thought, every feeling that arose had this tightness arise just after it. And when I let them go and relaxed there was a brief moment of clarity that had on thoughts in it. There was just a truly amazing clarity and calm before coming back to the breath and relaxing some more. As I did this for a longer period of time I began to have the insight into what was actually happening. I saw that when I came back to the breath and relaxing there was a very different kind of awareness and the insight arose that I was actually seeing dependent origination arise and pass away. What a mind blower! Dependent origination was not a distant philosophy that was difficult to grasp, it was a reality showing exactly how the process works. So the tranquilizing of the bodily formation (and the mental formation) showed me directly the deep meaning of what the Buddha was trying to tell and show us. This was such and big insight that I had to go out and practice more intensely and as I said before my 2 week retreat turned into a 3 month retreat because it was so incredibly interesting. This was such an earth shaking realization that it changed the way I understood what the Buddha was talking about in the suttas and I began to see the interconnectedness of all of the suttas through my direct experience of seeing dependent origination. As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. I have just been called away to help a meditator who is here for a retreat so I'll have continue this later. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38373 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/17/04 12:31:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > When I said, "The ultimate goal of meditation is to let go and relax all > of the tightnesses and tensions that arise." I was not only talking > about the physical body but both the mind and body. And when I said the > above I was referring to the letting go of craving which when done often > enough leads to the complete cessation of craving and suffering. In the > Anapanasati Sutta in the later section it says to tranquilize the mental > formations on the in breath and the out breath. > > Since you are starting to practice the meditation in the sutta way, > please remember that this is done not only while formerly sitting in > meditation but it is to be done with daily activities. This becomes a > truly amazing process this way. Sometimes coming back to the breath and > relaxing for just one or two times brings great relief. When I first > started doing this practice, I really did it as much as possible even > during daily activities and I saw for myself that every thought, every > feeling that arose had this tightness arise just after it. And when I let > them go and relaxed there was a brief moment of clarity that had on > thoughts in it. There was just a truly amazing clarity and calm before > coming back to the breath and relaxing some more. As I did this for a > longer period of time I began to have the insight into what was actually > happening. I saw that when I came back to the breath and relaxing there > was a very different kind of awareness and the insight arose that I was > actually seeing dependent origination arise and pass away. What a mind > blower! Dependent origination was not a distant philosophy that was > difficult to grasp, it was a reality showing exactly how the process > works. > > So the tranquilizing of the bodily formation (and the mental formation) > showed me directly the deep meaning of what the Buddha was trying to tell > and show us. This was such and big insight that I had to go out and > practice more intensely and as I said before my 2 week retreat turned > into a 3 month retreat because it was so incredibly interesting. This was > such an earth shaking realization that it changed the way I understood > what the Buddha was talking about in the suttas and I began to see the > interconnectedness of all of the suttas through my direct experience of > seeing dependent origination. > > As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there > is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. > > I have just been called away to help a meditator who is here for a > retreat so I'll have continue this later. > > Maha-Metta > Always > Bhante Vimalaramsi > =========================== Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the matter, I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental constriction (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and that bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind. As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and attention is with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is (relatively) greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and letting them go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38374 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 124 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas. 7 cetasikas always arise with each and every citta. This may confuse some people whether they are always there. No. There is no permanent 7 cetasikas there. Each of them arises with each of citta at each moment and each dies out at each moment. 7 cetasikas always arise with any kind of cittas. There are 6 particular mental factors called 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. I assign them as 6 flexible ministers of the king citta. Because they agree with citta they arise with. If akusala cittas, they become akusala cetasikas and if kusala they become kusala and if abyakata they become abyakata cetasikas. They are vitakka or initial application, vicara or sustained application, viriya or effort, piti or joy, chanda or will and adhimokkha or determination. As vitakka is concerned with jhana, and jhana modifies magga and phala cittas, when talking about vitakka, vicara, piti which are jhanic factors, cittas will be discussed as 121 total cittas. So in case of vitakka, vitakka does not arise with all 121 cittas unlike 7 universal mental factors or 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas. Among 54 kamavacara cittas, 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need vitakka cetasika at all. 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need to be initially applied to the object as the object hits directly pancadvaravajjana citta and then to pancavinnana cittas, vitakka is not the cetasika of 10 pancavinnana cittas. So only 44 kamavacara cittas arise with vitakka cetasika. Vitakka cetasika does not arise in 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, 5th jhana and all of arupa jhana. Vitakka cetasika arises only in 1st jhana cittas. There are 3 loki 1st jhana cittas. They are rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhana citta, rupavipaka 1st jhana citta, rupakiriya 1st jhana citta. So 3 loki 1st jhana cittas arise with vitakka cetasika. There are 8 lokuttara cittas, 4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas. When these 8 cittas arise in the vicinity of 1st rupa jhana or in the power of 1st jhana, all these 8 lokuttara cittas are called lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. All these 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas do have vitakka cetasika as their accompanying cetasika. So there are 44 kamavacara citta, 3 loki 1st jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas where vitakka cetasika arises. 44 + 3 + 8 = 55 cittas of 121 cittas arise with vitakka cetasikas. Vicara cetasika or sustained application does not arise in 2nd jhana. As vicara is the close friend of vitakka, it always arises with vitakka cetasika with the exception of 3 loki 2nd jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. So vicara will arise in 55 cittas where vitakka also arise and 11 2nd jhana cittas where vitakka does not arise. Vicara arises in 55 + 11 = 66 cittas of 121 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38375 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 125 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 6 particular mental factors or 6 pakinnaka cetasikas or 6 flexible ministers of the king cittas that is 1.vitakka, 2.vicara, 3.viriya, 4.piti, 5.chanda, and 6.adhimokkha, we have discussed on vitakka and vicara cetasikas. Piti is also a jhanic factor. So lokuttara cittas do have variation in number if jhanas are taken into consideration. When discussing on piti, it will be much more appropriate to talk on 121 total cittas rather than 89 total cittas. There are 62 cittas that somanassa vedana arises. Be careful that vedana arises with each and every of 89 or 121 cittas. 62 cittas that somanassa vedana arises together are 1. 4 somanassa sahagatam lobha mula cittas ( for guide see DT-122 ) 2. 1 somanassa santirana citta of 8 ahetuka kusala vipakacittas 3. 1 somanassa sahagatam ahetuka hasituppada citta of arahats 4. 12 somanassa sahagatam kamavacara sobhana cittas 5. 11 1st jhana cittas ( 3 loki 1st jhana and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana ) 6. 11 2nd jhana cittas ( 3 loki 2nd jhana and 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana ) 7. 11 3rd jhana cittas ( 3 loki 3rd jhana and 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana ) 8. 11 4th jhana cittas ( 3 loki 4th jhana and 8 lokuttara 4th jhana ) ------------------------- 62 somanassa cittas Among these 62 cittas, piti cetasika does not arise in 11 4th jhana cittas. So ( 62 - 11 = 51 cetasikas ) piti cetasika arises only in 51 cittas of 121 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38376 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:44am Subject: bhavangacittas 1. Bhavangacittas 1. Dear friends, Bhavanga-cittas arise when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. When we are in deep sleep, we do not know who we are, where we are, who our parents are. But when we wake up there are again objects impinging on the sense-doors and the mind-door and cittas arising in processes experience these objects. Bhavanga-cittas also arise in between the processes of cittas, they demarcate the different processes. If there were no bhvanga-cittas in between the processes we would die. The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. Bhavanga-citta experiences an object and this object is the same as the object of the renirth-consciousness. At the first moment of our life kamma produced the rebirth-consciousness and also three decads of rupa: one with heart-base (physical base of citta), one with body-consciousness, and one with sex-faculty. These groups of rupa are infinitesimal, the bodysense is not yet developed, and later on the other senses are produced by kamma. No object impinges yet on the bodysense. However, the rebirth-consciousness must have an object. No citta can arise without having an object, it experiences something, it is nama, not rupa. The object of rebirth-consciousness stems from the past life. It is like an echo of the object experienced by the last javana-cittas of the past life, thus not the object of the preceding dying-consciousness. The dying-consciousness only has the function of being the last citta of a lifespan, and it has the same object as all bhavanga-cittas of that previous life. The last javana-cittas of a lifespan experience a pleasant or an unpleasant object that presents itself through one of the six doors. Kusala kamma or akusala kamma conditions these moments. We are born as humans and thus, the object of the last javana cittas of the previous life was a desirable one and experienced by kusala cittas. As said, the rebirth-consciousness experiences the same object which is like an echo. It does not experience this through a doorway. When it has fallen away it is succeeded by the first bhavangacitta which is the same type of citta experiencing the same object, and not through a doorway. After a time cittas in processes arise and these experience other objects through a doorway. The first javanacittas in every life are rooted in clinging. We can distinguish two types of citta: the cittas that are door-freed and process-freed although they experience an object, and the cittas arising in processes that experience different objects through a doorway. The bhavangacittas are door-freed and process-freed. Each sense-door process is followed by a mind-door process, but there are bhavanga-cittas in between. The last bhavanga-citta arising before a mind-door process of cittas begins is called the mind-door, because it is the means through which the mind-door process cittas experience an object. Thus, the mind-door is a citta. This bhavanga-citta is succeeded by the first citta of the mind-door process, the mind-door adverting-consciousness. (to be continued) Nina. 38377 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: bhavangacittas 2. bhavangacittas 2. Dear friends, The sources: in the Abhidhamma: Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only occurs in the Commentaries. Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under contiguity-condiiton (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of contiguity-condition. It also occurs in the Book of Analysis, but not under the name bhavanga. The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, Analysis of the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding one another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense-cognitions are denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that succeeds this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind-element (two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also the adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or the cittas that are process freed (rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta, dying-consciousness) are mind-consciousnes element. We read: Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind-element; immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen there arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element. The Co to this text, the Dispeller of Delusion, p. 96 elaborates on this passage. **** Nina. 38378 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, bhavanga-cittas and dreams. Hi Larry, op 17-11-2004 00:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What is a dream? > -------------------- > Note 45 ...snip... For the commentarial description of dream > consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to > ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, > no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. says here: 'The > seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the > functional' (Pm. 478). N: I want to explain more about bhavanga-cittas first. I do this in a separate post, it is something I promised Howard long ago. Then I shall come to dreams, I found in the Co texts. Nina. 38379 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Bhante, I find short questions very inspiring, so I shall try to react to it. Butting in. First of all, forgive me that I did not respond to your Email to me. I tried, but I was not satisfied with my answer. I find it difficult to answer, because it seems that we each speak a different language. You wrote: the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away.> Misunderstandings can arise because of the wording, like speeding up. Howard uses it, but I know what he means. He does not mean: a self can tell sati and pañña: come here quickly. He means, one should not be heedless and cultivate the right conditions. There should be right effort, but he knows that this is not self. I think that the meditator should be alert and find out when lobha is creeping in. It is always around the corner and it is counteractive. After all, it is the second noble Truth. Anatta means: no controller, no owner. Of course the right conditions for pañña have to be cultivated: association with the wise friend in Dhamma, listening, asking questions, deeply considering what one heard. Also, all good qualities that are the perfections have to be developed, without expecting any gain for oneself. Those who have accumulations for jhana can develop it, but there should not be clinging to jhana and one should not develop it with an idea of hastening enlightenment. Re meditation, there are many posts in the archives, and I feel that it is not useful if I add anything else. There were countless debates and everyone has his own opinion. Now I come to your short, inspiring question. op 16-11-2004 23:08 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Dhamma Greetings Dan, > > Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? N: There are many degrees of right understanding, sammaditthi and there are many kinds of thinking. There is right thinking and wrong thinking. I speak first about thinking and the objects of thinking. I am angry because of what others did to me. I am thinking of a situation and I blame others. I am always thinking of other people as being the cause of my aversion. This kind of thinking is not helpful to cure anger. The Buddha taught me: the anger is in your mind and it has nothing to do with the outward circumstances and other people. Anger is an inward reality or dhamma. Anger has become a habit, because you were angry many times. You accumulated this inclination from life to life. There are conditions for its arising, it is conditioned by lobha, attachment. When things are not the way we would like them to be we have aversion. it is also conditioned by ignorance of realities. Aversion, dosa, and attachment, lobha, are real for everybody, no matter how we call them. They are not situations, they are not persons, not conventional realities. They are real in the absolute sense. We can call them dhammas or paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, but it does not matter what words we use. They are actually impersonal elements. We can learn their different characteristics when they appear. In this way there can be right thinking of dhammas. This is conditioned by listening to true Dhamma and considering it. This is still thinking of the level of intellectual understanding, not yet thinking of the eightfold Path which accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. There are many levels of right thinking. A person who develops jhana thinks in the right way of a meditation subject, such as a kasina. Thinking hits or touches as it were the meditation subject again and again and if he develops jhana in the right way he can think with absorption of the meditation subject. He only thinks of the meditation subject, he cannot have insight at the same time. In order to develop vipassana he has to emerge from jhana and be aware of jhanacitta, so that he does not take it for self. In order to reach higher stages he has to abandon thinking, because it is still a coarse jhana factor. When he reaches higher stages of jhana there is no need to think of the meditation subject. There can be absorption without thinking. When we use the word thinking in conventional sense we believe that there is a long moment of thinking which thinks of different things. However, thinking is a mental quality that accompanies citta just for a moment. Thus, while we are thinking of an event, there are many cittas accompanied by thinking which touches the object citta thinks of. Thinking is momentray. When right understanding of the eightfold Path is being developed thinking accompanies the citta with right understanding. It touches the object of right understanding. There is also concentration, but it is momentary concentration. The object is not a situation, not a person, not a concept. It can be lobha, dosa, seeing or any dhamma that arises in daily life. There can be direct awareness and understanding of the characterisrtics of dhammas, and thinking performs its function, but this is not thinking as we use it in conventional sense. The goal is eliminating the idea of self, to see the truth of anatta. With respect, Nina. 38380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Hi Mike, op 17-11-2004 02:35 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: I picked up Rupert Gethin's 'Summary of the > Topics of Abhidhamma etc.', published the next year by PTS--I think I got it > as my free book with my annual dues (a bonus I can't recommend highly > enough). Gethin's text is an edition of a translation by R.P. Wijeratne, N: I use it all the time, also for my Visuddhimagga studies. Some transl we have to get used to, like motivations, or mentalities for cetasikas. Nina. 38381 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: bhavangacittas 1. Nina wrote: Bhavangacittas 1. Dear friends, Bhavanga-cittas arise when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. When weare in deep sleep, we do not know who we are, where we are, who our parents are. ...snip...snip... ...snip...snip...snip...( Smiling to Sarah :-) ) Thus, the mind-door is a citta. This bhavanga-citta is succeeded by the first citta of the mind-door process, the mind-door adverting- consciousness.(to be continued) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Thank you very very much for your effort. 'bhavangacittas1.' is very clear and I am sure that even those who never learn abhidhamma will understand this post of 'bhavangacittas 1.' What I like here is paragraphing. You may notice that I use a maximum of 8 sentences in a paragraph. If sentences are long, I use only 3 or 4 sentences. This is paragraphwise. I mean 'the look of paragraph'. Paragraphing according to ideawise, when idea changes, I change to another paragraph however short they are. But when a single idea takes more than 10 sentences, I break down sentences into 2 separate paragraph. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38382 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings Phil, One of the things that may be interesting to you is to change 'investigation of realities' to 'investigation of one's experience' this is a small changing of words but it may help. The Idea that if one experiences even one moment of Satipatthana makes this a worthwhile rebirth doesn't really agree with the Buddha's teachings (my opinion). I have run across a few monks in Asia that have the idea that trying to experience the Buddha's teachings is just too difficult for most people so they say things like this. I really don't understand this at all, maybe they don't have enough understanding of the Buddha's path or became confused, but I find this kind of thinking to be quite contrary to the suttas. If you are not interested in trying formal meditation for whatever reason that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this technique during your daily activities: when you notice that your mind is very active, let go of those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension in your mind and body and then watch your breath and relax some more on the in-breath and out breath for two or three breaths. This helps greatly in overcoming stress and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yours personally. If you can cultivate this daily it can be of great benefit to you. Also, the idea that it takes many lifetimes to gain any spiritual benefits goes against the Buddha's teachings. In one commentary there is a story of a woman who became so strong in her faith that she was constantly saying the three refuges (that is, I take refuge in the Buddha... Dhamma... Sangha and relaxing after every one of these statements) and she gained great benefit and when she died from this realm she was reborn in a very nice heavenly realm. So her rebirth was a good one and she later became enlightened. The reason I told of this woman is an example of how one can have great benefit if they focus their mind on a truly wholesome object and relax any tightness or tension. It may be a fun thing for you to try, if you feel so inclined. Please try to see this, intellectual understanding takes a lot of thinking and pondering and blind faith before one can truly come to some deep understanding. But direct experience lets go of blind faith and thinking about, and replaces it with a confidence in the path. So when you said "My point is that there are many ways to investigate realities. Hopefully we will have direct understanding of them, but that is not something to expect soon. It took the Buddha countless lives to achieve his awakening. I think we should be modest in our expectations." I truly think this is not helpful to either you or anyone else who may not know the Buddha's path. If you want to have "modest expectations" that is fine for you, but by your saying this it may encourage others not to try more enthusiastically and is not skillful to say. When you said "So first the intellectual investigation. It needn't be addictive. It needn't distract us from the true path. It can be a part of the true path, a condition for deeper understanding, and healing, and ultimate liberation." In the West many people have become addicted to learning things from books and listening to talks and they think that they can truly understand anything if they only can read about and think about it. I have a friend who had a goat that needed to be milked every day. One day a college PhD friend came to visit and began to tell my friend exactly how (in theory) to milk the goat. So my friend gave him a bucket and told him to go out and milk the goat. This "intellectual expert" came back in about a half an hour with just a little bit of milk in the bucket. He was covered with sweat and dirt. My friend asked if everything was alright and he mumbled something and left. Then my friend went out and milked the goat. Maha-Metta Always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38383 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dhamma Greetings again Phil, some one just put this on another group and I think it very good so I will copy it an show it here: "And what is the self as a governing principle? There is the case where a monk, having gone to a wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, reflects on this: 'It is not for the sake of robes that I have gone forth from the home life into homelessness; it is not for the sake of almsfood, for the sake of lodgings, or for the sake of this or that state of [future] becoming that I have gone forth from the home life into homelessness. Simply that I am beset by birth, aging, & death; by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs; beset by stress, overcome with stress, [and I hope,] "Perhaps the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might be known!" Now, if I were to seek the same sort of sensual pleasures that I abandoned in going forth from home into homelessness -- or a worse sort -- that would not be fitting for me.' So he reflects on this: 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; my mindfulness established & not confused; my body calm & not aroused; my mind centered & unified.' Having made himself his governing principle, he abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. This is called the self as a governing principle." "And what is the Dhamma as a governing principle? Now, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be seen by the wise for themselves. There are fellow practitioners of the chaste life who dwell knowing & seeing it. If I -- having gone forth in this well-taught Dhamma & Vinaya -- were to remain lazy & heedless, that would not be fitting for me.' So he reflects on this: 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; my mindfulness established & not confused; my body calm & not aroused; my mind centered & unified.' Having made the Dhamma his governing principle, he abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. This is called the Dhamma as a governing principle. [endquote] [--- AN III.40 Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles] Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38384 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:31am Subject: Re: bhavangacittas 2. Nina wrote: bhavangacittas 2. Dear friends, The sources: in the Abhidhamma: Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only occurs in the Commentaries. Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: ...snip...snip... **** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Regarding elements, there are 18 elements. 10 elements are all rupa dhamma. 1.rupa dhatu, 2.sadda, 3.gandha, 4.rasa, and 5.photthabba dhatu 2.cakkhu dhatu, 2.sota, 3.ghana, 4.jivha, and 5.kaya dhatu There left 8 elements. 1 of 8 elements is dhamma dhatu. Dhamma dhatu is any of 52 cetasika, 16 sukhuma rupa, and 1 nibbana. There left 7 elements. All these 7 elements are cittas. They are 89 cittas. 10 cittas are 5 elements. They are cakkhu vinnana dhatu, sota, ghana, jivha, and kayavinnana dhatu. So there left 79 cittas ( 89 - 10 = 79 cittas ) 3 cittas are not manovinnana dhatu. One dhatu arises just before pancavinnana citta and one of 2 dhatu arises just after pancavinnana dhatu. These 3 cittas do not fully know the object. They just perceive and give the object to respective cittas to do their job. Pancadvaravajjana just advert the object to pancavinnana citta and so it does not know anything about the object. It just knows that it is an object and then it transfers it to pancavinnana citta. By the same token, 2 sampaticchana cittas just receive the object from pancavinnana cittas and they have to immediately transfer the object to next citta called investigating consciousness. As they both just receive, they do not know anything about the object. They just know that it is an object and it has to be transferred immediately to the investigating consciousness. So, pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas are not fully aware of the detail of the object. As they just know the object and they do not know the object like other vinnana cittas. So these 3 cittas are called mind-elements. They are not mind-consciousness- elements. Because they are not as fully conscious as mind- consciousness-elements. So from 79 cittas 3 cittas are separated as they are mind-elements or mano-dhatus. So there left 76 cittas. Regarding vinnana, all 89 cittas are vinnana. They can be called vinnana cittas or simply vinnanas. 10 cittas are pancavinnana dhatu. 3 cittas are mano-dhatu 76 cittas are mano-vinnana-dhatu. ---------- 89 cittas in total. But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mao-vinnana-dhatu. Could you please clarify me on these matters? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38385 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:46am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Venerable Bhante, I find short questions very inspiring, so I shall try to react to it. Butting in. First of all, forgive me that I did not respond to your Email to me. I tried, but I was not satisfied with my answer. I find it difficult to answer, because it seems that we each speak a different language. You wrote: the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away.> Misunderstandings can arise because of the wording, like speeding up. Howard uses it, but I know what he means. He does not mean: a self can tell sati and pañña: come here quickly. He means, one should not be heedless and cultivate the right conditions. There should be right effort, but he knows that this is not self. ..snip..snip.. ..snip.. The goal is eliminating the idea of self, to see the truth of anatta. With respect, Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; Dear Bhante and Nina, Another butting in. Dear Nina, all you have told Bhante are clear. Yes. Wording may make misunderstanding. That is why I do not like to use 'mind moves' 'clinging manifests as head-ache' etc. The Buddha totally changed the old concept. Brahmins are the oldest among other religions. Later religions are not in line with Bramins and Buddhism. Especially of 31 realms. Brahmins believe rebirth and they try to purify mind and their goal is to fuse with their god or to be reborn as Brahmas. They do have the idea of self. All other religions do have idea of self. The Buddha changed the old idea directly to opposite direction. Old one is atta and The Buddha discovered anatta. So if we can understand anatta, we are not too far. With respect, Htoo Naing 38386 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] two viewings of anatta Dear Phil, Bhante and All, This message is a message that was posted by Tep Sastri today at triplegem. The original message contained to find any hints of Noble Eightfold Path in 2 sets of governing principles namely self and dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings again Phil, > > some one just put this on another group and I think it very good so I > will copy it an show it here: > > "And what is the self as a governing principle? > > There is the case where a monk, having gone to a wilderness, to the > foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, reflects on this: > > 'It is not for the sake of robes that I have gone forth from the home > life > into homelessness; it is not for the sake of almsfood, for the sake of > lodgings, or for the sake of this or that state of [future] becoming that > I > have gone forth from the home life into homelessness. Simply that I am > beset by birth, aging, & death; by sorrows, lamentations, pains, > distresses, & despairs; beset by stress, overcome with stress, [and I > hope,] "Perhaps the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might > be known!" Now, if I were to seek the same sort of sensual pleasures > that I abandoned in going forth from home into homelessness -- or a > worse sort -- that would not be fitting for me.' > > So he reflects on this: > > 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; > my mindfulness established & not confused; > my body calm & not aroused; > my mind centered & unified.' > > Having made himself his governing principle, he abandons what is > unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, > develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. > This is called the self as a governing principle." > > "And what is the Dhamma as a governing principle? > > Now, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here > & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be seen by the > > wise for themselves. There are fellow practitioners of the chaste life > who dwell knowing & seeing it. If I -- having gone forth in this > well-taught > Dhamma & Vinaya -- were to remain lazy & heedless, that would not be > fitting for me.' > > So he reflects on this: > > 'My persistence will be aroused & not lax; > my mindfulness established & not confused; > my body calm & not aroused; > my mind centered & unified.' > > Having made the Dhamma his governing principle, he abandons what > is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, > develops what is unblameworthy, and looks after himself in a pure way. > This is called the Dhamma as a governing principle. [endquote] > > [--- AN III.40 Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles] > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi 38387 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha which > followed several discussions in India. > ======== Sorry, I missed it. Please let me know which message it was. Metta, Rob M :-) 38388 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 0:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Nina, When I said, "The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed up > the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > origination arises and passes away" what I was referring to is this, when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to the object of meditation (breath and relaxing, loving-kindness and relaxing or a Kasina and relaxing, or whatever meditation they are doing). The meditator has completely let go of that hindrance (at that exact moment), then another hindrance arises (this is seemingly the same hindrance and it arises over and over again until the meditator lets go of their attachment to it) and they treat it in the same way. Eventually the meditator will begin to become more familiar with "HOW" this hindrance arises. As this happens they begin to see more clearly and quickly "HOW" this process works and with that their awareness and mindfulness improves so the meditator recognizes and lets go more quickly and easily. "WHY?" Because their awareness is sharpened and their understanding that this is an impersonal process becomes quicker. This is a natural process that occurs when one is following the sutta instructions. When this hindrance is treated in this way (even with our daily activities) it becomes weaker and weaker until it finally doesn't have the strength to arise any more. When this happens the meditator will experience a real sense of relief, then joy arises and when it fades away a feeling of true comfort and peace arises (sukha). Mind is very composed and stays on the meditation object without any effort at all. I have just described in practical terms how a jhana arises. This kind of jhana is not a form of absorption and mind does not become glued to the meditation object, as it does when one is practicing one-pointed absorption concentration. It is a very different kind of jhana, that agrees with what the Buddha described about Venerable Sariputta's meditation experience and the jhanas had "vipassana" in them, while he was experiencing all of the jhanas up to the realm of "Nothingness". So when you are talking about the need to get out of jhana and begin the practice of vipassana as you said. It just doesn't need to happen, when one is practicing the sutta instructions. If you could take the time (if you have the Majjhima Nikaya) and read sutta # 111 "One By One as They Occurred" and see that Venerable Sariputta experienced many different things while he was in each of the jhanas, like each of the 5 aggregates, it may begin to change your mind about the jhana practice. Today, many people feel that jhana practice is not needed, and it is too hard to attain anyway. But when you look at just how many times the Buddha mentioned jhana, it can make you wonder about just what kind of jhana the Buddha was talking about. I know that the Visuddhi Magga talks about the practice of "jhana" as being a very distinctly different practice from "vipassana", but does this match up exactly with the suttas? Jhana is not some "mystical-magical state of attainment" that is only useful for attaining psychic powers, as it is currently thought to be. Jhana is simply a stage or level of understanding and meditation that has both samatha and vipassana "yoked"together and is a natural part of the Buddha's teachings. In sutta # 149 of the Majjhima Nikaya section # 10 it says: " The View of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration (I rather like to use the word collectedness rather than concentration because the word "concentration" is so misunderstood) is right collectedness. But his bodily action, his verbal action and his livelihood have already been purified earlier. Thus this Noble 8-fold Path, comes to fulfillment in him by development. When he develops this Noble 8-Fold Path, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 4 right kinds of striving, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the four spiritual powers, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 5 faculties, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the 5 powers, also come to fulfillment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors, also come to fulfillment in him by development. **** These two things -serenity and insight (samatha and vipassana) occur in him yoked evenly together***[end of quote]. So as you can see both "insight and jhana" (samatha) practice are conjoined, not disjoined. But this only occurs when the sutta instructions are followed exactly. I know the strong feeling about the need to separate the jhana practice and vipassana, I was taught that for 20 years. But when the suttas are looked at we can see that this is not necessarily the case. Venerable Sariputta had insights into the arising and passing away of all the things that the sutta describes. That is, as it says in sutta #111: "And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred. ( this says that the absorption concentration was not present at that time. Why? Because when the meditator is practicing absorption meditation they are not able to see these things, their concentration is too deep and they only see the meditation object or countersign. the absorption jhana is a different kind of jhana from what I call "tranquility jhana" or samatha/vipassana jhana); Known to him those states arose, known to him they were present, known to him they disappeared." So you may be able to see that when I am talking about jhana, it is a completely different type of jhana than what you are talking about. I do agree with you that if a meditator does practice the absorption type of concentration, that they will have to get out of that deep state of absorption in order to see something like vipassana. But when the meditator is practicing the sutta instructions they will not and this agrees with what I have just shown. Insights can and do arise while the meditator is in each of the jhanas, if they practice the sutta methods. Please believe me when I say that I know what a truly different approach this is, and how difficult it is to give up some ideas about the way we were taught. And, this is one of the reasons that I go to the suttas rather than the commentaries for clarification. It is not that the commentaries are 100% wrong, because they have some things in them that are exactly right. But I always go back to the suttas to see if they agree with what I read in the commentaries. I have found this to be the best approach to understanding the Buddha's path. I sincerely hope that what I have presented here is not taken in a the wrong or uncompromising way. I know that they might not necessarily agree with your approach. And,these are the things that I have found out through direct personal experience and I have been teaching this method with great success for those meditators who were open to the sutta approach. The way I give a Dhamma talk is by directly reading from a sutta and then explaining it through the eyes of meditation practice. This has seemed to be by far the best way to teach the Buddha-Dhamma. When I started teaching this way, I was amazed at just how fast the meditators practices progressed. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38389 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Howard] Dear Howard, Good question. > > Dan: My idea is esentially that sammaditthi is "right viewing" rather > > than "correct theory". The "samma" derives from the mode of seeing or > > understanding rather than the character of the object. > > > ========================== > Howard: This is a very interesting perspective to me - novel, fresh. However, > much as I like it, MN 9 seems to indicate that that right view consists of the > understanding (that's al it says, "understanding") of the following: 1) the > wholesome and unwholesome, and their roots, 2) nutriment of all sorts, and its > origin, cessation, and the path leading to that cessation, 3) the 4 noble > truths, and 4) every factor of the dependent origination of suffering, it origin, > cessation, and the path leading to its cessation. As we've discussed before, the "understanding" refered to here is not conceptual understanding, but direct understanding of those objects. There is a huge difference. If it's just conceptual understanding, then it is not 'samma'. Metta, Dan 38390 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] And Dhamma greetings to you, Bhante. Great question. But I can only answer your question with another question: B: Just a quick thought, does sammaditthi have thinking in it? Dan: Depends on what you mean by "thinking"... Metta, Dan 38391 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. > 478). > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Dear Larry, > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, I don't know anything about this. Let's wait and see what Nina has to say. Larry 38392 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Dan) - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:30:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > > thought about rightly or wrongly. > > > ======================= > How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right > now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a > cessation? > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or > filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. > > With metta, > Howard > Friend Howard, I 100% agree with everything you have to say here. I would also like to add that the emphasis on "only the present moment" appears to disregard the importance having insight into kamma. Before the Buddha became enlightened, he saw his numerous past lives and the numerous past lives of countless others. He saw how entities were reborn into various realms based on their actions. This knowledge led to his finally releasing his `desire for being'. Therefore, the past, present, and likely future should be known at both an ultimate and a conventional level, in my opinion. Metta, James 38393 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:39pm Subject: what is desire Hi Nina and all, I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" and "want". Is this correct? These are such different phenomena that it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. So, when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by pleasant feeling. If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. This liking is accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want is the pleasant feeling of like. Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is actually rather subtle. What do you think? Larry 38394 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Hi, Bhante (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/17/04 5:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > When I said, "The practice of tranquility meditation helps one to speed > up > >the awareness so the meditator can "know" exactly "HOW" dependent > >origination arises and passes away" what I was referring to is this, > when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, > relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to > the object of meditation (breath and relaxing, loving-kindness and > relaxing or a Kasina and relaxing, or whatever meditation they are > doing). The meditator has completely let go of that hindrance (at that > exact moment), then another hindrance arises (this is seemingly the same > hindrance and it arises over and over again until the meditator lets go > of their attachment to it) and they treat it in the same way. Eventually > the meditator will begin to become more familiar with "HOW" this > hindrance arises. As this happens they begin to see more clearly and > quickly "HOW" this process works and with that their awareness and > mindfulness improves so the meditator recognizes and lets go more quickly > and easily. "WHY?" Because their awareness is sharpened and their > understanding that this is an impersonal process becomes quicker. This is > a natural process that occurs when one is following the sutta > instructions. > > ======================= If I may butt in: This is much as I put it at one point. It's not that experiential events go by more slowly or that "the mind" speeds up, but rather that there is an growth of clarity. The mind always "keeps up" with its contents, but heighened clarity is required to really see what is going on, and when that is so it might be *described* as awareness speeding up, and it might *seem* as if it were, but it is just a matter of clarity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38395 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I have never said that clinging manifest as a headache. What I have said many, many times is craving manifests as a subtle tightness or tension and is most often seen in the head. This is a big difference. But the real problem I think is I am coming from direct experience and use words to try and describe it that you are not used to. When I say watching the movements of the mind, by that I mean that one is able to see exactly how mind changes from one object to another and for this to really occur ones awareness must be very sharp and see things as quickly as they arise. In this way awareness must be moving as fast as mind. When a meditator first starts out their awareness is very slow. The beginner tries to stay on the meditation object but mind takes off and the meditator doesn't even know it for a period of time. When a meditator becomes more familiar with how mind jumps from one thing to another the time that they are not on the object of meditation becomes less. In this way the meditators awareness becomes faster. How exactly does anatta arise? How does it manifest? Does this happen quickly or is it some gross thing that must be recognized? When I am talking about "how" anatta arises, I am showing that it first arises with craving and you have seen that I call this the "I like it... I don't like it mind" this does manifest as a subtle tightness or tension in both mind and body. Next the clinging arises and carries mind away into concepts, thinking, and preconceived ideas. This takes the meditator away from seeing what arises next, because their mind is so caught up in the thinking. According to dependent origination everything that arises does so in one particular way and the way to be able to actually recognize this is by letting go of the craving (where the false idea of a self begins). So being able to recognize exactly how craving arises is the key to the cessation of suffering. (as I see it and this does seem to agree with the teachings of the Buddha) Of course, this does take practice and from my own experience it takes a very particular way of practice, that is the following of the sutta instructions without adding or subtracting anything. Please remember, I come from a very practical approach to Buddha-Dhamma and use language to describe what happens. The theoretical approach has a very specific language that sometimes misses things when compared to the practical approach. I'm sure, Htoo, you must remember that at the time of the Buddha there were two brothers who joined the order of Bhikkhus at the same time. One brother was quite a bit older than the other. So the older brother decided to only do the meditation practice and the younger brother decided to study and memorize the suttas. After a few years the younger brother became very famous for his scholarship and giving great Dhamma talks. Then one day the Buddha noticed that the older brother, who had become an arahat was coming to visit his younger brother. The younger brother thought he would try to embarrass his older brother (not knowing that the older brother had become an arahat). But the Buddha began asking questions that the younger bhikkhu couldn't answer, but the older bhikkhu could because of his direct experience. Even though the older brother didn't use exactly the same language he did understand the Dhamma intimately and directly. When one is looking at How things work in their own practice it may not seem to agree with what one knows from books, but they can certainly understand the Buddha's teachings in a very direct way. I sincerely hope that this helps to clear up understanding about the way I communicate. If I use terms that you may not be familiar with please don't hesitate to ask me to explain it further. The whole idea of practicing the Buddha Dhamma is to help us other to understand what is taught. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38396 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Howard, I actually agree with this but lacked the words to say it Thanks. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38397 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Re: what is desire Hi Larry, Long time no chat! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. So, > when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but > desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by > pleasant feeling. If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the > taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. This liking is > accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want > more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. > > Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced > as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also > produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So > when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must > be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. > > This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa-mula cittas through natural decisive support conditon (pakatupanissaya). Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" in quotation marks. Larry, does this help or confuse further? Metta, Rob M :-) 38398 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- > --- "m. nease" wrote: >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> And welcome back. When you wrote: >> ... >> "The importance of there being *right* understanding, no matter how >> infrequent or weak it may be (rather than striving to have something >> that >> is not, and cannot be, right understanding)." >> >> were you referring to sammaadi.t.thi in the sense exclusively either of >> satipa.t.thaana or of maggacitta with only paramattha dhammas as >> objects? From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections > I would include intellectual right understanding also. The point I was > trying to make is that satipatthana is the outcome of right consideration > and reflection only and cannot be the outcome of a some approximation to > that. In other words, it is not how deeply things are understood at the > present moment that matters, but the absence of wrong view/understanding. Well, as you may have noticed I've been somewhat preoccupied with this topic lately. I haven't had time to follow up on the discussion I started with Dan, apologies all around--I still hope to come back to it if I can come up with something coherent. Just want to say, 'thanks a lot' for this response which has left me even more baffled, to tell the truth. Oh well!, I is quite at home there... The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, is it? Well, never mind--I'll leave the finger alone for a while and just attend to the moon, as our Ch'an friends would say...! Cheers! mike 38399 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hello all I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about something difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like threads, so please bear with me. I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. There have been strong accumulations building in this area since soon after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Fortunately I have seen the need to do something about. On one particularly gloomy morning when I realized how disappointed I was that there hadn't been bad news for the American military effort, I deeply felt how evil my thoughts were, and deeply regretted them. Soon after, I found this sutta passage, which encouraged me: "And how is a person without concern? There is the case where a monk thinks, "the arising of unarisen evil, unskillful thoughts would lead to what is unbeneficial," yet he feels no concern. "The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial," yet he feels no concern..." (SN XVI.2) Before, I had known that my habitual trains of thought would be unbeneficial, yet I allowed them to run along on their tracks without much interference on my part. Now, at least, I felt concern, truly felt concern. This concern brought me to looking more closely at the paddhaanas, the four right efforts. Also, there was James' post on Right Resolve in the 8FP for teens series. I disagreed with some of it, but it made a strong impression on me. I post a passage: "Before the Buddha became enlightened, he realized that he, in essence, had `two minds'. He had a mind that inclined toward good thoughts and a mind that inclined toward bad thoughts. He also discovered that the bad thoughts caused him to have a great deal of suffering while the good thoughts caused him to be peaceful and happy. Therefore, he resolved to only allow the good thoughts and to stop the bad thoughts. Imagine that you each have one angel and one devil sitting on each of your shoulders. Sometimes the angel speaks in your right ear and makes you have good thoughts; sometimes the devil speaks to your left ear and makes you have bad thoughts. What should you do? Should you listen to both the angel and the devil? Of course not! You should do what the Buddha did: only allow the good thoughts; only listen to the angel. Over time, the devil will start speaking less and less until, if you reach enlightenment, the devil will disappear completely. So, you should resolve to only listen to your angel, to only have good thoughts, and to never listen to your devil. This is Right Resolve." I protested, rightly I think, that bad thoughts *will* arise, due to conditions, thus it might not be a good idea to set up this idea of resolving not to have them. Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with that. After all, the Buddha recognized that evil thoughts were to be abandoned when the arose, the second right effort. There are not three right efforts, there are four. The arising of unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable. And yet, there is much to be said for being more rigorous about defending the mind against them, I think. And there is support in the Suttanta for doing so. Some examples, taken from Wings to Freedom section on the Padhaanas: (I base my interest in this on the suttas passages themselves, not the commentary by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that accompanies them) -Effluents can be abandoned in 7 ways, including destroying them. At other times they are to be tolerated. (the sutta number didn't print out. I'm sure you know of it.) -An individual with an "internal blemish" (which is later defined as "consorting with evil, unskillful wishes") may discern that this is so, and then "generate desire etc to abandon that blemish." (MN 5) - A monk may discern that "when I exert a mental fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of of exertion there is dispassion....when I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity, there is dispassion." (MN 101) Of course, the ardour, the concern, the rigour will arise due to conditions, beyond control of self, but they do arise. So I am feeling less prone to tolerate certain thoughts, while still feeling prone to have equanimity towards others. This brings me to the discussion I was having with Jon. Phil > This afternoon, I read the AN IV 14 description of the padhaana of > abandoning akusala that has arisen: "There is a the case where a monk > does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen (in him.) He > abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence...." Same > for ill-will, etc. I have always wondered about the rather muscular > language used in this translation. (And I guess in the original as well.) > I assume that there is a progression from "does not acquiesce" to "wipes > it out of existence" depending on the accumulations of the monk in > question, or the degree of the akusala, or something. > > Jon: > The description of the 4 padhaanas is another instance of a teaching about > dhammas being given in conventional language appropriate to the (advanced) > level of understanding of the listener. (thus giving rise to the idea of > some of an *apparent* difference between the suttas and the abhidhamma -- > even more so here than in the case of phassa that has been so much > discussed on the list of late). > As I understand it, when right effort arises there is at that moment no > akusala, and so for that instant any already/previously arisen akusala has > been abandoned, and any akusala that might otherwise arise (i.e. unarisen > akusala) does not. Phil: This I'm not so sure about. The above sutta passages suggest that the discerning individual is aware of the blemish that *is* there, and that is to be abandoned, or tolerated with equanimity, in accordance with wise discernement of which method is best. Is this a contradiction here between Abhidhamma and Suttanta? I am not troubled by contradictions, if there are any. There are many ways to detachment. That's what makes Buddha's teaching so wondrous. Why not use all ways to seek detachment? (I am not saying there is a contradiciton - only that I am not troubled by the idea of contradictions.) Jon > The problem with ascribing (as some do) a conventional meaning to effort > in arousing kusala where there is presently none is that it would imply > either (a) that conventional effort that is akusala may support the > arising of kusala, or (b) that the conventional effort itself is kusala > which would mean that kusala can be made to arise by determining it to be > so. Neither of these alternatives would be consistent with what is said > elsewhere in the teachings, especially the teaching on > anicca-dukkha-anatta. Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala where there is none is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating loving-kindness. It seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. But - and I haven't seen clearly yet where the line is - there *can* be insight into unwholesome states of mind that are accumulating in a very crude, very harmful way, and effort in a conventional way to cut off the conditioning factors. For me, that would mean making a more rigorous effort *not* to go to the internet pages which fuel my aversion for Bush and my schadenfreude at trouble for American foreign policy. I've posted about this before, I know, but have failed to abandon this habit through a patient approach. And I think it is far too harmful to continue to be patient. Another passage from MN 101: "Furthermore, the monk notices this: "When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress and pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain." It *is* painful for me not to check the news. It's an addiction, a crude defilement. This gets back to what I was discussing with Sarah some weeks (months?) back, but I guess it still seems to me that there are ultra-crude defilements that can be dealt with in a more straightforward way, using effort in a more conventional sense, whereas with ordinary-crude and medium and subtle defilements conventional effort doesn't benefit, and the Abhidhamma based approach and other approaches based in patience are the way to go. (Ultra crude and ordinary crude...I hope you know what I mean.) > Jon: > We should be wary of any idea creeping in that akusala in particular needs > to be the object of awareness because it needs to be dealt with and > awareness is a means of achieving that. Phil: But we should also be wary of not being concerned by the harmfullness of akusala, as the sutta above says. There are some forms of akusala that *should not be tolerated* and for which all and any means should be taken to destroy them. There are some forms of akusala, of evil thoughts, for which James' "listen to the Buddha, not the devil" approach will help me, though I am not a teenager! (Physically at least- mentally there is at times a sea of sex and gore that the most hormone drivern adolescent could feel sated in!) > The aim is just the better understanding of dhammas, meaning of course any > presently arisen dhamma. We are all inclined to see 'our akusala' as the > enemy, but this is just another instance of the subtlety of wrong view, as > I see it. See above. There *are* limits to patience. Should be. Again, I have a feeling that I am dealing with a crudity of defilements that Jon and other experienced practicioners have rooted out decades ago. That might be wrong view, but I think I am....right? > Jon: > The more persistent the kilesa, the more patience is needed! But the more intensely foul the kilesa, the less? Possibly? Another encouraging Sutta passage: "With regard to internal factors, I do not envision any other single factor so helpful as appropriate attention for a monk...a monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful." This is a confirmation of what I have been feeling lately - yoniso manasikaara is very, very important. "With regard to external factors, I do not envision any other single factor like friendship with admirable people in being so helpful for a monk....a monk who is a friend with admirable peole abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful" This is a confirmation of what I have been feeling lately - my DSG friends are very, very important! Metta, Phil P.S Hello in passing to Bhante V. I will not be able to get back to you until tomorrow, at the earliest. Thanks also Mike for your post re Yoniso M. And Larry, forgive me but I think I will not be able to get back to you in the anatta thread. I'm falling behind. Thanks for your feedback. I will print it out as i do all valuable posts. And thanks Nina for your kind words. I would also like to thank my grade 4 teacher, Mrs Hollamby who...oops wrong speech. 38400 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile Hi All, I finally finished the "almost final" draft and posted it in the Files section. I am now working on the index and I hope to send it for printing in a week or so. I would appreciate any last-minute comments. Metta, Rob M :-) 38401 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [Sukin] Hi Dan k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, supramundane and mundane. > The idea that sammaditthi is developed only after the development > of a "conceptual right view" seems to lead to a stultifying > intellectualism that, in practice, lends itself to development of > ditthi rather than detachment and ends up obscuring the path rather > than bringing it into view. > The notion that intellectual understanding is a necessary precursor > to direct understanding is very popular in dsg, but it is, I > believe, not supported by the tipitaka. k: whether an intellectual understanding is necessary as a percusor to direct understanding is in the sutta, sometimes as investigation, listening, reflection, comtemplation etc. As I said, there must be right application of thought to right view, in order for panna to further develop or accumulates. k: If we are talking about mundane sammaditthi, as I said earlier to you it must first in the paramatha dhamma even before we know it as an experience to us. Ken O > > > > Dan: Sammaditthi is right viewing of reality, not correct > opinion. > > > > Sukin: But we haven't determined yet, if sammaditthi can also > view > > concepts rightly. ;-) > > Of course sammaditthi can also view concepts rightly, viz. as > distinct from reality. > > > Metta, > > Dan 38402 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Rob: "An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa-mula cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" in quotation marks. Larry, does this help or confuse further?" Hi Rob, Sorry, I don't see the relevance to what I was talking about. Also, lobha is craving and upadana is clinging. However, maybe you can help me out on another question. Is it feasible that body tension is consciousness produced rupa? Is there some kind of rule on what kind of consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? You are probably experiencing some body tension right now that is not related to posture; is there a way to see directly what is producing that? Larry 38403 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > So when you are talking about the need to get out of jhana and begin the > practice of vipassana as you said. It just doesn't need to happen, when > one is practicing the sutta instructions. If you could take the time (if > you have the Majjhima Nikaya) and read sutta # 111 "One By One as They > Occurred" and see that Venerable Sariputta experienced many different > things while he was in each of the jhanas, like each of the 5 aggregates, > it may begin to change your mind about the jhana practice. > ============ Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was sariputta and his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where beings can equal this. >. I know the strong feeling about the > need to separate the jhana practice and vipassana, I was taught that for > 20 years. But when the suttas are looked at we can see that this is not > necessarily the case. ========= I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this training wasn't right - looking back now? with respect RobertK 38404 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "An object enters the mental stream through a sense door. We are > not yet Anagamis, so there is a clinging to the object (we have not yet > given up sensuous clinging). We cling to the object because we have > perversion of perception (sanna-vipallasa) and perceive (see MN1) the > object as beautiful. Craving is the name of the accumulation which > conditions the arising of clinging (clinging is a lobha-mula citta). > This is followed by a stage of conceiving (again, see MN1) at which > point perversion of thought (citta-vipallasa) could lead to perversion > of view (ditthi-vipallasa) causing aversion (could also lead to more > clinging conditioned by craving). Perversion of view means that we > attribute characteristics to the object that are not truly there and our > accumulations (craving or "disgust") lead to lobha-mula or dosa- mula > cittas through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). > Note: Craving is the name of the accumulation which gives rise to > lobha (clinging), but I don't know the proper term for the name of the > accumulation which gives arise to dosa; for this reason, I put "disgust" > in quotation marks. > Larry, does this help or confuse further?" > > Hi Rob, > > Sorry, I don't see the relevance to what I was talking about. Also, > lobha is craving and upadana is clinging. ===== Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). ===== > However, maybe you can help > me out on another question. Is it feasible that body tension is > consciousness produced rupa? ===== Bodily intimation is citta-produced rupa. In fact, it is only citta which produces bodily intimation (not kamma, nutrition or temperature). Bodily intimation is communication via the body. If I point my finger at something, this in bodily intimation. However, indigestion or a headache is not bodily intimation as it is not intended to communicate. This type of rupa is caused by temperature. ===== > Is there some kind of rule on what kind of > consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? ===== I have a chart (not with me now, I will summarize and send it later today) which shows which cittas can produce rupa. ===== > You are probably > experiencing some body tension right now that is not related to posture; > is there a way to see directly what is producing that? ===== I don't need Abhidhamma to tell me that it is now lunch time and even though my stomach is communicating with me, this is not bodily intimation arising from citta :-) Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry for misunderstanding your earlier question... I will read it again. 38405 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/17/04 9:29:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > where there is none > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > loving-kindness. It > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. ========================= I don't think you should be so sure about this. Consider, if you would, the following, particularly [iii]: ---------------------------------- > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > >> -- SN XLV.8 > ----------------------------------------- But most relevant to the matter of the "evil thoughts" that have been besetting you are [i] and [ii]. With regard to these thoughts and even desires for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would do well to consider the following: 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they come. And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38406 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). ======================= Whatever craving is, it is an experiential reality, is it not? Does it not fall within the sankharakkhanda? It is neither rupa, nor citta, nor nibbana, and if, as you say, it is also not cetasika, what in the world is it then? But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38407 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:48pm Subject: Re: what is desire Hi Larry, Let me try again :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? ===== I would group "like" with "clinging" (i.e. lobha cetasika) and "want" with "craving" (i.e. an accumulation). ===== > These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. ===== When there is "like" associated with sensous objects (you like to see things), it is often associated with neutral feeling. When there is "like" associated with concepts (you like having a cookie), it is often associated with pleasant feeling. An unpleasant mental state such as dissatisfaction with the current situation can be a condition for the accumulation of "want" to arise. ===== > So, > when there is desire (want) it is accompanied by neutral feeling but > desire usually desires what we like, and like is accompanied by > pleasant feeling. ===== Accumulations such as desire / craving / want are not associated with feelings; only mental states have associated feeling. ===== > If I taste a cookie neutral feeling arises with the > taste but for whatever reason I may like this taste. ===== As a non-Anagami, there will be attachment to sense-stimulation during the sense-door process (though the tasting-consciousness citta is accompanied by neutral feeling, the subsequent javana cittas will be lobha-mula, likely accompanied by neutral mental feeling). Later, there will be a separate set of mind-door processes that recognize the sweetness. There may even be another set of mind- door processes that name the sweetness (umm... chocolate chip). The recognizing of the sweetness can be a condition for accumulations to kick in and start further mental proliferation which is the "I like this taste!" The naming of the sweetness can be a condition for accumulations to kick in and start even more mental proliferation which is "I like chocolate chips!". ===== > This liking is > accompanied by pleasant feeling and we say "It tastes good; I want > more." But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. ===== I think it is more complicated that the way you are presenting it. According to Ledi Sayadaw, the recognition of the sweetness can involve hundreds of thousands of mind-door process. ===== > > Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, "want" produces a rupa experienced > as neutral feeling bodily sensation, and bewilderment (moha) also > produces a rupa experienced as neutral feeling bodily sensation. So > when desire is accompanied by unpleasant bodily sensation this must > be produced by dislike. I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. ===== As mentioned previously, citta-produced bodily intimation is to communicate information to others - it does not create the pleasant bodily feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling that are detected through the body-sense door. ===== > > This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? ===== Larry, did I manage to come closer to your questions this time? Metta, Rob M :-) PS: All this talk of food is making me hungry. All I have is salad, no chocolate chip cookies :-( 38408 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:55pm Subject: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi Phil, To reinforce what Howard is saying, "You cannot control the mind... but you can train it." (just like a puppy) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 9:29:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > plnao@j... writes: > > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > I don't think you should be so sure about this. Consider, if you > would, the following, particularly [iii]: > ---------------------------------- > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > > >> -- SN XLV.8 > > > ----------------------------------------- > But most relevant to the matter of the "evil thoughts" that have been > besetting you are [i] and [ii]. With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as > you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as > one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they > come. And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they > were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they > will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are > just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You > should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to > choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. > > With metta, > Howard > 38409 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Howard, Perhaps I am getting too technical. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). > ======================= > Whatever craving is, it is an experiential reality, is it not? Does it > not fall within the sankharakkhanda? It is neither rupa, nor citta, nor > nibbana, and if, as you say, it is also not cetasika, what in the world is it then? > > But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? > When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging. Specifically: - tanha is craving for visible data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible- data and dhamma-data (it is a tendency, an accumulation, a habit) - upadana is sense-door clinging, false view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (i.e. lobha & ditthi) - Tanha conditions upadana through the following conditions: a. Root b. Co-nascence c. Mutuality d. Support e. Natural Decisive Support f. Association g. Presence h. Non-disappearance Later today, I will forward a reference from the Visuddhimagga on this. Metta, Rob M :-) 38410 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Dear Lee, I have never thought about it much, I think it is beyond my scope. It is not helpful for my daily life. Who can discern javanacitta 1,2,3,etc? They go too quickly. Perhaps there is more in other commentaries, but again, I do not think it fruitful for me to go into it too much. I found something in the Tiika of Visuddhimagga, XIX, 14, in footnote 2. The seventh impulsion ...has acquired the service of repetition by the previous impulsions, gives result in the next life... Then there are other opinions, see also Visuddhimagga IV, 75, 77, footnotes 20, 21. It seems not so much repetition which is decisive, but the position as being the last impulsion. But again, all this is not relevant to me, and beyond my scope. Nina. op 17-11-2004 06:55 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > As I know that, in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bikkhu > Bodhi, chapter V, pg205 follows the Ven. Narada's statement but I > don't have the English version copy,. > > By the way, is there any other reference source that mention about the > strongness of the javana? 38411 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,114 Dear Htoo, Today I come to the dreams! It will be in Vis. 114 and in an extra answer to Larry. First about bhavanga. Nina. op 17-11-2004 12:45 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams >> is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. > 478). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Larry, > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a dream? 38412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 11/17/04 11:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Craving is tanha (tanha is not a cetasika, it is an accumulation). > ======================= > > ================= Howard: But actually, isn't tanha a mode of lobha, which indeed is a cetasika? =========== Thank you Howard, Yes tanha is one of the names for lobha cetasika. Other names are abhijja and raga (and there are many more). Robertk 38413 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Rob, I'm pretty sure there are many different kinds of consciousness produced rupa, not just the two intimations. However, apparently there isn't a lot written about this so maybe there is no textual answer to my question. This all started by thinking about what Bhante Vimalaramsi said about desire arising with body tension, usually unpleasant feeling. How to explain this? My idea was that the feeling of the consciousness produced rupa sensation would correspond to the feeling of the consciousness that produced it. I'm not 100% sure if this is valid. If it is true then we can figure out what kind of consciousness produces certain consciousness produced rupas. I do agree though that 'like' can arise with neutral feeling. But 'like' is usually weaker than 'want' so I wouldn't class either as clinging (upadana). Where did you get all these ideas about tanha being an accumulation? What do you mean by 'accumulation'? Larry 38414 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Phil, Do you want to be the one who can control thoughts? Then there are many religions and philosphies and psycholgies that will show you how. Or do you want to see that there is no one anywhere doing anything ever? Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are watching TV. No one puts it clearer than the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . Instead of been by akusala why not understand it as it is. If you read the suttas without understanding the conventional language they are termed in you will go wrong. There is TRUE right effort at a moment of understanding the dhamma that is arising now. You talk about having evil thoughts about 9/11 and trying to stop them. But if you know that sound is sound and thinking is thinking it all becomes merely objects for insight. And learning to see this you will have no doubt at all that there are no beings anywhere, there are just conditions, mere dukkha, arising and ceasing. I asked one of the group?@who are translating Buddhism in Daily life in Japan how they felt towards a guy last year who killed 6 or 7 primary school students. One who has really caught onto what Dhamma is said she felt neutral.?@I said I would love to meet him because I think he would appreciate Dhamma now (since been executed). So hearing about Osama or Bush is like a small test to show us whether we have a little understanding or none at all. Why do we always want to complicate the Dhamma. I guess being aware of the present moment is just something that doesn't seem feasible or something..? Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like > threads, > so please bear with me. > > I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) > recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have > far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for > Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken > pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that > when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to > eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. > 38415 From: Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is desire Rob: "When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging." Hi Rob, I see what you are talking about now. In terms of citta process accumulation comes both before and after desire. The 'before' is not explicit in the dependent arising formula. Accumulation conditions javana then javana is accumulated (becomes habitual). And yes I agree 'like' is an accumulation and, according to CMA conventional, what most people think is desirable. I am sure there are other reasons for desirability but abhidhamma doesn't go into them. Larry 38416 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:49pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard and Ken, Butting in here. Howard, I have just had a thought to respond to a number of your posts, perhaps because they are short and easy to reply, so please don't think that I am targeting you particularly. ;-) > Ken: I suggested in my previous post that you were, unwillingly, > insisting on an element of self. That is, you couldn't accept the > reality of soulless, disinterested phenomena arising for the > briefest of moments, conditioning their successors, and disappearing > forever. Of course, I know you accept this in principle, but I > wonder why you insist on some sort of personal involvement in > satipatthana. If there was something more than conditioned dhammas > then there could be actions (rites and rituals) leading to the > arising of panna. But there is nothing more, and so panna arises > independent of ceremony and only when the conditions are right. > ========================= Howard: I said nothing of "personal involvement" or "self". I spoke of action (kamma). Practice is a volitional activity, it is cetana in action. If that can only mean to you the acting of some alleged self, that is not my problem, because that is not my perspective. ------------------------------------- Sukin: Is there any activity without cetana? If not, then why particularly give attention to `practice', by this I mean `acting upon a thought about `formal sitting' or for the matter any idea of trying to experiencing dhammas directly'? I hear you as saying that this is crucial, because otherwise there is no practice. Am I correct? Metta, Sukin. 38417 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:49pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken:… a 'condition for practice,' so I am happy with that terminology. > You, however, think the suttas describe satipatthana as the end > result and you think study [and formal meditation] are practices > that condition the end result. > ========================== Howard: No. Satipatthana, the setting up, or establishing, of mindfulness is a practice. Vipassana is its consequence. ---------------------------- Sukin: I am not sure, but from the way it sounds, you seem to be saying that the practice involves not only satipatthana, but also something else. By `setting up' and `establishing of mindfulness', you seem to be pointing to moments other than when there *is* mindfulness of a dhamma. In fact, I would consider pariyatti as being `setting up or establishing' of conditions for the practice, which is satipatthana. Sorry if I am mistaken. Metta, Sukin. 38418 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:50pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken: That's a fair comment (apart from calling study a practice). As far > as I am aware, the three forms of study described in the suttas are > the only preconditions for satipatthana. ======================== Howard: Okay, then. If mine is a "fair comment", then I stand by my characterization of yours being a one-fold path. However, you conflate satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, with vipassana, its consequencel. ---------------------------- Sukin: Ultimately, `hearing the dhamma' and `wisely reflecting on it' is only another conditioned dhamma. If there is no sati and the citta is not kusala, then the `dhamma heard' is just meaningless words, or worse a condition for miccha ditthi and so any `reflection' only makes matters worse. However, when there is panna, which is what you are allowing for ;-), then sati and other wholesome factors are also being developed. So saying that it is a `one-fold path' is contradictory, don't you think? Metta, Sukin 38419 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:50pm Subject: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi Howard (and Ken), > Ken: But they are not taught in a prescriptive way (as if there was a > self who could do something now and benefit from it later). ===================== Howard: It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with a "self". ------------------------------ Sukin: I am trying to think of a situation when it wouldn't be so but can't find any. Could you provide me with an example of one? Metta, Sukin. 38420 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard (and Sarah), > Sarah: The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. > ======================= Howard: How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing right now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is impermanence witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, there is no cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? If so, what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a cessation? The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual overlay or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. ----------------------------- Sukin: Perhaps the `conceptual overlay' is that which is conditioned by `doubt'. As we know, ultimately dhammas and their characteristics are inseparable, so in the beginning there will be knowing only the visesa lakkhana (particular characteristic) of dhammas. But as panna develops to vipassana nana, the tilakkhana can appear as clear as the visesa lakkhana can be, I think. So I don't see a problem with the "momentary view" at all. Metta, Sukin 38421 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Howard (and Bhante), Butting in. > Bhante: As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly that there > is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. =========================== Howard: Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the matter, I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental constriction (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and that bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind. As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and attention is with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is (relatively) greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and letting them go. --------------------------------- Sukin: There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment only panna can know. If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is just `thinking'. And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for example, psychology and medicine? And what is this, "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta view"? This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which only encourage atta sanna. And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. Here too there seem to be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. Got to run now. Will say more when you respond. Metta, Sukin 38422 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard (and Sarah), Butting in. > Sarah: With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from realities, no > way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the eradication > of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by understanding > the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. =========================== Howard: Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial uprootings and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. This is the reason for sila and samadhi. -------------------------- Sukin: Conditions are extremely complex, such that if today we were to behave very morally and our minds are not restlessly darting around sense objects, it says nothing about anysaya, esp. with regard to ditthi. What *does* show whether we are well developed along the Path is the arising of panna in whatever circumstance, taking as object any state of mind, including akusala. And though it is true that development of panna does condition better understanding of sila, and this when relatively firm allows for less and less distraction, I don't see it as a matter of `leading to' or `preparing the mind' for anything. Because if these are in fact the result of understanding, then to think them as precondition seems like wrong view. And this will in turn condition wrong practice. Metta, Sukin. 38423 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > ===== > > > Is there some kind of rule on what kind of > > consciousnesses can produce specific rupas? > > ===== > > I have a chart (not with me now, I will summarize and send it later > today) which shows which cittas can produce rupa. > > ===== Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA, Table 6.2, page 249 lists which cittas can produce: - Conscious born matter - Postures - Intimation - Smiling Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 38424 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is desire Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > When we analyze Paticcasamuppada from an Abhidhamma perspective > (defining each of the 12 causes / effects as ultimate entities where > possible, and defining the nature of the conditioning relationships > between the causes / effects using the 24 conditions), tanha becomes > a concept describing an accumulation to support the arising of the > specific lobha-mula cittas which are clinging. > > Specifically: > - tanha is craving for visible data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible- > data and dhamma-data (it is a tendency, an accumulation, a habit) > - upadana is sense-door clinging, false view clinging, rite-and- > ritual clinging, self-clinging (i.e. lobha & ditthi) > - Tanha conditions upadana through the following conditions: > a. Root > b. Co-nascence > c. Mutuality > d. Support > e. Natural Decisive Support > f. Association > g. Presence > h. Non-disappearance > > Later today, I will forward a reference from the Visuddhimagga on > this. ===== Vism XVII, 248 says: As regards the four kinds of clinging taught in this way, craving for sense desires is a condition in one way, as decisive support, for the first kind, namely sense-desire clinging, because it arises in relation to the objective field in which craving delights. But it is a condition in seven ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, non-disappearance and root-cause or in eight ways, as those and decisive-support as well, for the remaining three kinds. And when it is a condition as decisive-support, then it is never conascent. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With craving as a condition, clinging'. Rob K is correct - tanha is often used (especially in the Suttas) as a synonym for lobha. Perhaps my limiting definition based on how tanha is used in paticcasamuppada is inappropriate in the context of this discussion. Metta, Rob M :-) 38425 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, succeeding one another; there never is a moment without citta and never a moment without feeling. We cling to happy feeling, somanassa, but we know so little about ourselves and thus we may not recognize the different kinds of happy feeling. When we are laughing there is happy feeling with lobha-múla-citta, but we may not realize that there is happy feeling which is akusala. We should not try to suppress laughing, but it is useful to know the different types of realities which arise. When we see someone else there can be happy feeling arising with attachment or happy feeling arising with kusala citta. The cittas which think of the person we meet are akusala cittas when there is no dåna (generosity), síla (good moral conduct), or bhåvanå (mental development). Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, vedanåkkhandha(1). We cling to feeling and we take it for self. If our knowledge of feeling is merely theoretical we will not know feeling as it is. When there is awareness of feeling when it appears it can be known as only a type of nåma and not self. *** (1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 2. Conditioned realities can be classified as five aggregates or khandhas: the khandha of rupas, of feelings, of perceptions (sa~n~naa), of f"formations" or "activities" (all cetasikas other than feeling and sa~n~naa) and of consciousness. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38426 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:08am Subject: Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Friend Phil, Sorry I didn't address your earlier post on this subject but I was busy trying to finish the series in time for Rob's presentation. Now I am on a brief vacation (for Eid, the break after Ramadan) and I can take a breather. You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. Sujin philosophy of "no control". I was speaking from the Buddha's teaching that we each can make an effort to control the arising of unwholesome states of mind. Phil, you write, "The arising of unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable" and yet this is not true. An arahant doesn't have unskillful/evil thoughts, and becoming an arahant is the goal of Buddhism. So when I wrote that we should resolve to get to the point where we never have unskillful/evil thoughts, that is what I meant. You also wrote, "Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with that." Now, what is impossible about becoming an arahant? It is not even impossible for a teen to become an arahant, as the Buddha taught. You see, I write things to inspire people to accomplish the most that they can accomplish; that is why my writing made such a strong impact on you. I applaud your efforts to rid yourself of the evil thoughts you are now having in regard to the conflict in Iraq. I'm sure that you will eventually solve the problem since you have resolved to. However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you don't have the printed copies) Metta, James 38427 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi RobM (& Nina), I wrote a longer note to you which I lost when I tried to add the link to my earlier post. Anyway, briefly: Here’s the post I referred to. The subject was ‘RobM - kamma-patha qus’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38125 I’m glad your talk went so well. You had certainly put a lot of work into the preparation and I'm sure this was greatly appreciated. With regard to the objects of satipatthana as given in the Satipatthana Sutta, I don’t think there’s any point in referring to awareness of sitting etc unless it is clearly explained what the realities are that are referred to as sitting. Otherwise, all we do is to reinforce wrong views of self and postures. Under kaayaanupassi in the commentary, it makes clear: “There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived materiality, in a body”. Under ‘Modes of Deportment’ the text makes it clear that it is not referring to the ‘general sense of awareness’ which ‘readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving’ etc. It stresses that such general awareness ‘does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness’. The particular meaning of awareness as used in the Tipitaka, refers to the awareness of characteristics of realities, of namas and rupas only. The commentary stresses that in this Sutta too, ‘the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken’ and indeed the development of satipatthana ‘sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness.’ I'll be glad for any of your comments. (You may also like to see posts under 'Posture' and 'Satipatthana Sutta amd commentaries' in U.P. sometime) On our trip, Khun Sujin was talking about a text which refers to three things which hinder the understanding of the rising and falling of realities. One of these is the idea of ‘posture’. If we have an idea that in reality there is ‘sitting’, ‘standing’ etc, there can’t be any understanding of the rising and falling away of rupas. Nina or I may add more on this later. (Nina, do you know where a text referring to these 3 things is?) Metta, Sarah p.s. You may have missed other posts addressed to you from time to time. I know that often when I address posts to you they’re rather late as I often have to wait for time to pull out texts etc. I have two suggestions for anyone who is not always able to follow the list: a) go to our new back-up of archives: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Download to scroll through easily off-line on flights etc Some search facility too (but ignore google as it’s not yet working:-/). Also, if anyone has a yahoo account, they now give a very large memory capability and good search facility. It’s worth opening an account just to receive DSG mail in the in-box for searches and replies. I use it all the time for this. You could probably type in RobM after a break, for example. Hope this helps. Best wishes with the book. I know you’re very busy right now. Metta, Sarah ======== --- robmoult wrote: > > p.s RobM - hope you saw my other brief comments on kamma-patha > which > > followed several discussions in India. > > ======== > > Sorry, I missed it. Please let me know which message it was. 38428 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need help here :) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I wrote a longer note to you which I lost when I tried to add the link to > my earlier post. Anyway, briefly: > > Here's the post I referred to. The subject was `RobM - kamma-patha qus' > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38125 ===== Interesting post - I will reply later after consulting the Patthana ===== > > I'm glad your talk went so well. You had certainly put a lot of work into > the preparation and I'm sure this was greatly appreciated. > > With regard to the objects of satipatthana as given in the Satipatthana > Sutta, I don't think there's any point in referring to awareness of > sitting etc unless it is clearly explained what the realities are that are > referred to as sitting. Otherwise, all we do is to reinforce wrong views > of self and postures. > > Under kaayaanupassi in the commentary, it makes clear: > > "There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived > materiality, in a body". > > Under `Modes of Deportment' the text makes it clear that it is not > referring to the `general sense of awareness' which `readily do dogs, > jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving' etc. It > stresses that such general awareness `does not shed the belief in a > living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither > becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of > Mindfulness'. > > The particular meaning of awareness as used in the Tipitaka, refers to the > awareness of characteristics of realities, of namas and rupas only. > > The commentary stresses that in this Sutta too, `the particular and not > the general sense of awareness is to be taken' and indeed the development > of satipatthana `sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea > of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the > Arousing of Mindfulness.' > > I'll be glad for any of your comments. (You may also like to see posts > under 'Posture' and 'Satipatthana Sutta amd commentaries' in U.P. > sometime) ===== I understand and agree with the importance of not taking the Sutta too literally. In my own defence :-), I was targetting 12 year-olds and I had allocated less than one minute for this subject. With an older audience and more time, it would have been a different story. I hope that they rememeber that there is a Satipatthana Sutta and make the effort to truly understand it some day. ===== > a) go to our new back-up of archives: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > Download to scroll through easily off-line on flights etc > > Some search facility too (but ignore google as it's not yet working:-/). > > Also, if anyone has a yahoo account, they now give a very large memory > capability and good search facility. It's worth opening an account just to > receive DSG mail in the in-box for searches and replies. I use it all the > time for this. You could probably type in RobM after a break, for example. ===== Hey, this search site is EXCELLENT!!!! I was trying to locate an old post of mine where I analyzed Paticcasamuppada using Patthana and I was able to locate it in minutes! (message 33260, in case you are interested). Does this mean that I can delete all the old .zip files from the Files section of DSG? They are taking up a lot of space and have been made effectively obsolete by this excellent search site. I am now to going to see what other messages I have missed :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38429 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, Thank you for your long reply and kind comments addressed in a post to me. Let me just start with one essential point where we have some agreement. You wrote: --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > You said: "S: I would change this around a little to say that the false > idea of a > personal self (atta) is the first kind of craving which has to be > eradicated. It is the grossest form of attachment. So whenever there is > any idea of controlling the object of meditation or choosing what to be > aware of or thinking there really is any Self in control, I suggest that > this false idea can be known." > > Bhante: > > Here we basically agree but I would not use the "eradicate". Because > this process most be seen many, many, many thousands or millions of > times > before the idea of a personal self is eradicated. ….. S: Actually, I was glad to see some agreement here as it was the one point that Eric and Howard picked up for discussion because they didn't agree;-). Back to other areas where we either don’t agree or use different language (as others have mentioned). By way of introduction, you wrote: ..... > One thing that will helps us both is if you would remember that I come > from a practical approach to the Buddha's teachings not strictly from > the > suttas. ….. S: I’m also interested in a practical approach. Honestly, I don’t know what is more practical than learning about and understanding the present realities now as we speak. Life and the world only exist in the present moment of seeing or touching or hearing or thinking about what’s just been seen and so on. If we don’t learn more about what the present reality is now, but continue to think in terms of other practices, other more suitable occasions or objects for sati to be aware of, or if we continue to confuse the conventional world with absolute dhammas, then I would see this as a very impractical approach. So the suttas, the abhidhamma or the commentaries are not, as I see it, just for the following of a theory or an impractical approach but as sign-posts which point out present practice and present development of satipatthana. I’m not sure what strictly and ‘not strictly’ really means, but if we have the idea that our own interpretations of experience are more reliable as sign-posts, I think we’re likely to wander down blind alleys and get lost. Of course the teachings have to be tested out and verified, but this doesn't mean they cannot be used as our guide. .... > Bhante: > > These are words that don't have any practical meaning to me, How is this > done? Seeing that 'Suffering' and the 'Cause of Suffering' is Craving > it > seems to me to aware of how it arises and to let it go is the way to > that > "detachment" and it is the way to overcome the false idea of a > (personal) > 'self'. …. S: With respect, the way to understand these Truths as taught by the Buddha is the eightfold path beginning with right understanding. What does right understanding know? It has to understand any conditioned dhammas for what they are – both namas and rupas. It is impossible for there to be detachment from conditioned dhammas without such understanding. Craving is one. …. >So One is actually letting go of attachment in a real sense when > they let go of the craving in that moment. This letting go of craving is > the way the third Noble Truth (the cessation of suffering) is > experienced > and the method used agrees completely with the 4th Noble Truth. again I > am again talking about direct experience not philosophical concepts. …. S: Again, with respect, there is no one or thing that can ‘let go’. If craving has arisen, sati can be aware of it at that moment and panna can understand its nature. The path of satipatthana is the awareness, understanding and detachment from what is conditioned. The practice is surely not the ‘letting go’ of unwholesome states, but the understanding of any dhammas. Sati can never become a bala (power) while there is a subtle or not so subtle desire to be rid of certain realities. On the otherhand, by understanding the nature of craving when it arises, it will be seen for what it is more and more, just like all other realities. …. > Bhante: > > No actually it is talking about experiencing dependent origination and > thinking about it. According to the text what is ignorance? Isn't it the > seeing directly the 4 Noble Truths? Above I have shown how this takes > place. …. S: I think you mean the *not* seeing the 4 Noble Truths. I think that ignorance is a mental state which arises very often in a day – with all unwholesome moments of consciousness in fact. Without ignorance, there would be no craving or anger, no wrong views or conceits. In addition, without ignorance samsara would not continue life after life. Whilst seeing, hearing and other experiences are considered satisfactory or worthwhile in any sense, life continues on. Ignorance can only be understood gradually too by the development of panna (understanding) which gets to know the characteristics of the various dhammas being experienced now for what they are. If seeing or hearing or visible object or sound are not known directly, the arising and falling away of these same dhammas cannot be known, let alone the unsatisfactory or impermanent characteristics. …. >Also, when talking about the 4 Noble Truths the Buddha wasn't > talking about the 'Cause of suffering' being ignorance. …. S:I believe you were also referring to D.O. Either way, ignorance is there. Without ignorance, there is no further attachment, no further becoming and no further suffering. Both are eradicated at the stage of arahant. …. >In a general > sense what you are saying is true and I am talking about an experiential > sense. …. S: I believe that the theory and practice should be in accord. What we read in the texts is about the development of right theory and right practice – patipatti. ….. >Craving must be recognized when it arises and through my own > direct experience, I have seen that right after a feeling arises, the > craving arises and it always manifests as a subtle tightness or tension > somewhere in the mind and body. …. S: I understand what you are saying and many people would say the same. I do a lot of yoga and there is also a lot of talk about releasing tensions, calming the body and mind, following the breath and so on. As I just suggested to another friend in some comments about postures, it doesn’t take a Buddha’s wisdom to give these conventional kinds of advice and they don’t lead to the dispelling of any wrong views of self, unless there is an underlying understanding of the various elements, the various namas and rupas whilst listening or giving such instructions,which of course ther may be. In order to understand dhammas as elements, there has to be some basic understanding about what feelings really are, how they arise at every moment with every consciousness, how craving can follow the experience of any object at all (except for the 9 lokuttara dhammas), clinging regardless of whether a sound or sight or bodily experience or feeling or wholesome state or anything is being experienced or has just been experienced. When we refer to ‘subtle tightness and tension…’, again we have to understand what is really experienced through the body-sense and mind, otherwise it’s likely to all be mixed up and taken for ‘my’ experience again as I see it. I know this will be sounding like more theory and it’s getting long, so I’ll stop here and look forward to discussing further those parts of what I have written which you don’t agree with. I'm happy for you to be direct and frank as I'm sure we can all benefit from such dialogue. I really appreciate your honest reflections and participation here with us all. Also, I’m sure I may well be missing many of your points and apologise in advance for this. I’ve read your other comments with interest too and will keep them in mind for future discussion. Metta, Sarah ======= 38430 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:35am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, ========= I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this training wasn't right - looking back now? with respect RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Bhante and All, I saw the name Bhante Vimalaramsi at some websites long time ago. The history said that he went to Myanmar in 1988. I may be wrong for the figure '1988' but he may come to Myanmar a few years earlier. And because of country's affair, he had to move to Malaysia soon. Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38431 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,114 Dear Larry, Thank you for your reply. Nina already mentioned that she would first go through 'bhavangacittas' and later would go to 'dream matters'. Let us wait for your messages on dream. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Pm. says here: 'The seeing of dreams > > > is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' > (Pm. > > 478). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > -- > > Dear Larry, > > > > Is it right to say that dreams are seen only by functional > > consciousness? Could you please write down the vithi vara of a > dream? > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Hi Htoo, > > I don't know anything about this. Let's wait and see what Nina has to > say. > > Larry 38432 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:45am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Hello Htoo, Robert, all, I don't think Bhante claimed to have been trained by Mahasi Sayadaw, did he? At this link he gives a fuller telling of his story: http://www.dhammasukha.org/about_teacher.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, > ========= > I saw where you said you trained with Mahasi sayadaw (or in his > temple?) and that you were very successful. But are you saying this > training wasn't right - looking back now? > with respect > RobertK > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Robert K, Bhante and All, > > I saw the name Bhante Vimalaramsi at some websites long time ago. The > history said that he went to Myanmar in 1988. I may be wrong for the > figure '1988' but he may come to Myanmar a few years earlier. And > because of country's affair, he had to move to Malaysia soon. > > Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday > 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante > Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws > (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or > Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 38433 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I have never said that clinging manifest as a headache. What I have said many, many times is craving manifests as a subtle tightness or tension and is most often seen in the head. This is a big difference. But the real problem I think is I am coming from direct experience and use words to try and describe it that you are not used to. ..snip..snip..[ I snip here because the moderators repeatedly reminded me offlist to snip. So this snipping is not showing disrespectful to Bhante Vimalaramsi as he once said to Tep at triplegem]... I use terms that you may not be familiar with please don't hesitate to ask me to explain it further. The whole idea of practicing the Buddha Dhamma is to help us other to understand what is taught. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, I can sense. I have read your message of milking of a goat by a PhD who fail to obtain milk. You seem to be a sutta expert as you are frequently saying suttas, suttas, suttas. But this time you did not quote any sutta regarding 2 brothers. I can sense directly and indirectly. Whatever milking or 2 brother bhikkhus are used, the essence is that you implied that someone is talking just by intellect without any experience. Anyway I follow the right Path. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 38434 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:57am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > Is there any activity without cetana? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: There's no *willed* activity without cetana. Not all activity is directy willed. In particular, the arising of wisdom, while due to causes and conditions, among which are acts of cetana, is not directly willed. --------------------------------------------- If not, then why particularly give > > attention to `practice', by this I mean `acting upon a thought > about `formal sitting' or for the matter any idea of trying to experiencing > dhammas directly'? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Practice, in any context, is directly willed activity. In the Buddhist context, it pertains to setting up of conditions (e.g., the setting up of mindfulness) that will lead eventually to wisdom. ----------------------------------------------- I hear you as saying that this is crucial, because > > otherwise there is no practice. Am I correct? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Without engaging in willed actions in accordance with the teachings of the Buddha, one is not a practicing Buddhist, and there is no reason why such a one should make any more "progress" than a follower of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism. Jainism, or some materialist philosophy. If there is no Buddhist practice, that is, willed actions within a given mindstream setting up conditions for direct gnosis of the Dhamma, then progress or lack of progress for all "beings" is a random matter. If you say that no, there is a difference - one who has heard and studied the Dhamma will make progress, my comment is twofold: 1) It is sheer luck, i.e., is independent of choice, as to whether one has heard the Dhamma and studied it or not, and 2) You also follow a one-fold path consisting of nothing but study. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38435 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > Ultimately, `hearing the dhamma' and `wisely reflecting on it' is only > another conditioned dhamma. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, everything arises according to causes and conditions. So what? Among those conditions is cetana. ---------------------------------------- If there is no sati and the citta is not > > kusala, then the `dhamma heard' is just meaningless words, or worse a > condition for miccha ditthi and so any `reflection' only makes matters > worse. However, when there is panna, which is what you are allowing > for ;-), then sati and other wholesome factors are also being developed. > So saying that it is a `one-fold path' is contradictory, don't you think? ------------------------------------ Howard: No. ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38436 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:51:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Howard: It is not mandatory to associate prescriptive behavior with > a "self". > ------------------------------ > Sukin: > I am trying to think of a situation when it wouldn't be so but can't find > any. Could you provide me with an example of one? > ======================== Fascinating. ONE example? I *never* associate prescriptive activity with a self. I associate it with willing, with cetana ... period. I don't believe in any agent of action. I just don't. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38437 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: There is a Practice (Re: [dsg] Re: New to Group) Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:52:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Sukin: > I am not sure, but from the way it sounds, you seem to be saying that > the practice involves not only satipatthana, but also something else. > By `setting up' and `establishing of mindfulness', you seem to be pointing > to moments other than when there *is* mindfulness of a dhamma. In > fact, I would consider pariyatti as being `setting up or establishing' of > conditions for the practice, which is satipatthana. Sorry if I am mistaken. > ===================== No. Satipatthana, the setting up of mindfulness, is exactly that - an application of the formational factor, cetana. Cetana impels, it directs, it forms. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38438 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Howard: How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality > appearing right > now"? Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of > cessation? If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and a > cessation? > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual > overlay > or filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. > ----------------------------- > Sukin: > Perhaps the `conceptual overlay' is that which is conditioned by `doubt'. > As we know, ultimately dhammas and their characteristics are > inseparable, so in the beginning there will be knowing only the visesa > lakkhana (particular characteristic) of dhammas. But as panna develops > to vipassana nana, the tilakkhana can appear as clear as the visesa > lakkhana can be, I think. So I don't see a problem with the "momentary > view" at all. > > Metta, > Sukin > ======================= Sorry, but the foregoing response strikes mer as a sort of catechism, a declaration of belief. Okay. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38439 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Dear Howard (and Bhante), > > Butting in. > > >Bhante: As I went deeper into the meditation I began to see directly > that there > >is a very subtle tightness in mind even when I didn't notice it before. > =========================== > Howard: Whether or not tranquilizing and releasing is the whole of the > matter, > I sure do concur that it is of central importance. It has been my direct > experience that mind and body are intimately connected, that mental > constriction > (craving, clinging, desire, and upset) is reflected in bodily tension, and > that > bodily tension is reflected in mental constriction. Letting go of one tends > to let go of the other, and most especially, the body door is a relatively > easily accessible doorway to the mind. > As regards my own practice, when engaged in sitting meditation, the > calm comes quickly and easily, and where I have to apply effort and > attention is > with respect to maintaining clarity and avoiding a sinking of a mind > overcome > by calm. When not engaged in formal meditation, the clarity is > (relatively) > greater than the calm, and then my attention needs to concentrate on > observation of bodily sensations, especially tensions, calming them, and > letting > them go. > --------------------------------- > Sukin: > There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other > and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment > only panna can know. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nice pure theory, Sukin. Every timer I read "Only pa~n~na can know," I understand this to be a declaration of hopelessness. It's much like sentences of the form "God will provide" and "Only God can say". ------------------------------------------- If we are truthful to our own level of > > understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The > best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes > in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is > just `thinking'. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Unless one looks for oneself, looks directly, one will never know. One will be nothing but a memorizer. -------------------------------------------- > And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental > constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for > example, psychology and medicine? > And what is this, > "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the > body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suggest looking, Sukin, instead of not looking and just saying "no". ---------------------------------------------- > > Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe > nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except > by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta > view"? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: No. You are just playing mind games and word games, and are avoiding direct investigation. ---------------------------------------------- > This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the > objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which > only encourage atta sanna. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Satipatthana is not something to "know about". So long as you only "know about" it, and do not engage in it, you are merely playing concept games. ------------------------------------------------ > And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for > understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is hilarious. Just read what the suttas have to say about calm and equanimity. They are *necessary*. ------------------------------------------------ Here too there seem to > > be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of > satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is > conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in > this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition > again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Utter nonsense. This sis some sort of philopsophy, but not Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------- > > Got to run now. Will say more when you respond. > > Metta, > Sukin > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38440 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:53:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard (and Sarah), > > Butting in. > > >Sarah: With an idea of self, there's no way to become detached from > realities, no > >way for attachment to be reduced and no way there can be the > eradication > >of anusaya (latent tendencies). This can only come about by > understanding > >the arising and falling away of realities and thereby the inherent > >unsatisfactoriness of what is clung to, as I see it. > =========================== > Howard: Okay, I see. Yes, I agree that there will be no uprooting of deep > seated, latent tendencies until stream entry. However, more superficial > uprootings > and moderations will precede that, "preparing the mind" as it were. > This is > the reason for sila and samadhi. > -------------------------- > Sukin: > Conditions are extremely complex, such that if today we were to behave > very morally and our minds are not restlessly darting around sense > objects, it says nothing about anysaya, esp. with regard to ditthi. > What *does* show whether we are well developed along the Path is > the arising of panna in whatever circumstance, taking as object any > state of mind, including akusala. And though it is true that development > of panna does condition better understanding of sila, and this when > relatively firm allows for less and less distraction, I don't see it as a > matter of `leading to' or `preparing the mind' for anything. Because if > these are in fact the result of understanding, then to think them as > precondition seems like wrong view. And this will in turn condition > wrong practice. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > ========================== I'm sorry, but I just don't get any content from the foregoing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38441 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Actually I never said that I directly practiced with Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. Even if I would gone to the Mahasi center when he was alive I doubt that I would have had the opportunity to practice with him directly. He was a very busy Bhikkhu, with his writing and taking care of center business. There are actually many teachers at Mahasi center. When I first went to Mahasi center my first teachers was Sayadaw U Lakkhana and after about 4 months he decided to leave. Then I practiced with Sayadaw U Pandita until the government asked the foreign monks to leave. I was there for a total of 8 months. In 1990 I went back to Burma and spent 2 years very intensely practicing with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa and was very successful according to the standards of those who practiced with this method. In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. Hope this clears things up a bit Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38442 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi, James (and Phil) - In a message dated 11/18/04 3:14:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. ====================== Very well said, James! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38443 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, > > > S: Can there be awareness of just `dukkha' or does it have to be the > > > `dukkha of a reality' would you say? If it's the latter, how does > > that > > > awareness develop? > > > > Of course there can be awareness of just 'dukkha'. It happens when > > the awareness of that characteristic is very clear. > ….. > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot be > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > thought about rightly or wrongly. Of course the ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, and of course there cannot be an understanding of them apart from the reality appearing right now. But the awareness is of just dukkha. There is awareness of no other object. I don't understand the word games you are trying to play here. I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very brief. > > > S: I stressed in the threads with DN that it's not the language or > > the > > > word `vedana' that is of any importance, but the understanding that > > arises > > > having heard about these realities that counts. > > > > That's right. I was just referring to your comment that you could > > accurately assess a person's understanding through conversation. > …. > S: I'm sure I didn't put it this way;-) I'm sure I said or implied that > without conversation one couldn't assess or have any idea. What you wrote was: "The only way to have any idea about another's understanding is by discussion (and then of course it's subject to one's limited understanding)." Unless you mean "The only way to have any idea about another's [conceptual] understanding is by discussion," I disagree. Real understanding is a thing quite distinct from conceptual understanding. To have any idea about another's REAL understanding is by ignoring their theories but observing their actions -- preferably over a long period of time. > > It depends on what I mean by "mind states"... but I'm not very > > attracted to the idea of spinning around and around with endless > > discussion about it. > …. > S: On the contrary, I'm very interested to know what you mean by `mind > states' here as I think it's important to get this clear. Do you or do you > not take the first noble truth of suffering to refer to not only cetasikas > (mind or mental states), but also to cittas and rupas, i.e the 5 (upadana) > khandhas ? I'm not enamoured with the translation of cetasika as "mind state". I was thinking of cittas and cetasikas. Rupas are also dukkha because they are not satisfactory as objects. > > No, you silly! I'm only saying that if you don't know the meanings of > > the words you are using, your conception of what they refer to is > > wrong. So the "conceptual right view" you develop before there is > > direct awareness is, quite simply, wrong! > …. > S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual > training, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, > hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective > understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each > moment of `giving ear', or would the conceptual right view whilst > listening and considering be a `right' condition for awareness to arise > and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? There is no such thing as "conceptual right view". Sammaditthi is not conceptual, and understanding is not at all a matter of piecing together concepts, cogitation, and speculation. > When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry > being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, > c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the > first three factors right or wrong? > > [SN 55, 55-61 > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom,…to the growth of wisdom,….to the expansion of > wisdom,…to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,…to the > realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma……."] > > Dan, as I understand it, the entire tipitaka and commentaries are about > pariyatti., aabout helping us to develop a firm intellectual right > understanding in order for patipatti or satipatthana to develop. > Otherwise, why would the Buddha have bothered to teach at all? Why do we > both to read or discuss these teachings? You've asked this question before. And I've answered before. Running out of time... > If we think it's helpful to study and listen to the Buddha's teachings, it > shows that we see the value in having a firm and correct conceptual > framework for sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path to develop. Sarah, the words and conceptualizations are just models of reality and not reality at all, and all models are wrong. Some models work better than others, but ultimately all are wrong because they are simply abstractions of the real thing and not the thing itself. The notion of "correct conceptual framework" doesn't make any sense. It just isn't helpful to dwell and nitpick to death conceptual models, especially about things for which there is no real understanding. > As you say, this is a popular view on DSG – indeed we wouldn't be here if > we didn't see the value of considering and reflecting a lot on what has > been taught for our benefit. Reflecting on the way things are known is quite different from speculating on the ways they might be known later. > Do you really see any conceptual right view arising with or about them as > 'incorrect'? I don't believe in "conceptual right view". Dan 38444 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more than > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort.> > > k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, > supramundane and mundane. Either. Dan 38445 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:22am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his > attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was > one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. > I have heard that Sayadaw U Silananda has not been well of late. Do you still maintain contact with him? With Great Respect, Rob M :-) 38446 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Robert, I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta descriptions. In the book "The Progress of Insight" It says about the experience of "Nibbana" is this : "So, through knowledge of equanimity about formations, which is endowed with many virtues, blessings, and powers, he notices the formations as they occur. When this knowledge is mature, having become keen, strong, and lucid, on reaching its culmination point, it will understand any of the formations as being impermanent or painful or without self, just by seeing their dissolution. Now that act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three, which is still more lucid in its perfect understanding, manifests itself two or three times or more in rapid succession. This is called 'Insight leading to emergence'." Now let us compare what it says in the Samyutta Nikaya in Sutta #14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins (2) of 12 The Nidanasamyutta. I will copy this short sutta in its entirety so you may be able to see the differences. it says: At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, as to those ascetics and brahmins who do not understand (and have insights into) these things, the origin of these things, the cessation of these things, and the way leading to the cessation of these things; what are those things that they do not understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do not understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into)? "They do not understand (and have insights into) aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) birth, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) existence, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) clinging, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) craving, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) contact, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) the six sense bases, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) mentality and materiality, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do not understand (and have insights into) volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. These are the things that they do not understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do not understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do not understand (and have insights into). "These I do not consider to be ascetics among ascetics, or brahmins among brahmins, and these venerable ones do not, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism or the goal of brahminhood [nibbana]. "But, bhikkhus, as to those ascetics and brahmins who do understand (and have insights into) these things, the origin of these things, the cessation of these things, and the way leading to the cessation of these things: what are those things that they do understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into)? "They do understand (and have insights into) aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) birth, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) existence, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) clinging, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) craving, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into)feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) contact, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) the six sense bases, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) mentality and materiality, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. They do understand (and have insights into) volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation. These are the things that they do understand (and have insights into), whose origin they do understand (and have insights into), whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into), and the way leading to whose cessation they do understand (and have insights into). "These I consider to be ascetics among ascetics and brahmins among brahmins, and these venerable ones, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism and brahminhood [nibbana]." As you can plainly see there is a definite difference in these experiences. The Mahasi method says that the meditator sees one of the three characteristics arising rapidly for three times in a row or more then Nibbana arises. And the sutta says that ones sees and understands the cessation of the links of dependent origination and Nibbana occurs with that deep understanding of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. This is a very different end result, don't you think? By doing the practice of the sutta instructions the meditator sees and experiences D.O. many many times and when the letting go of craving occurs the cessation of D.O. arises. According to many teachers the one link in D.O. that can be let go of is the Craving and this breaks the wheel of birth and death. This is why the second Noble Truth or the cause of suffering is Craving is so important to see and deeply understand. This is why I stress the letting go of the tensions and tightnesses in both the body and mind, when they arise. To me this is the key to finally experiencing Nibbana. You said: "Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was Sariputta and his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where beings can equal this. " Bhante* And does this mean that he didn't have a meditation practice at all? Insights can come to anyone at any time. Why do you think that Venerable Sariputta was entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while listening to the Buddha talk? And if this was the case and he was practicing the absorption method of meditation would he have been able to hear what the Buddha said? According to the absorption method of jhana, Venerable Sariputta's mind would have been so absorbed on the object of meditation that he wouldn't have heard anything at all. And another question is why do you think that moving in and out of jhanas rapidly can't be done today? It only takes practice to be able to have this kind of agility of mind. And there are people today who can do this, I guarantee it (I am not talking about my own practice so don't ask. maybe I can and maybe I can't but I won't talk about this). So in answer to your question about whether the Mahasi method is right or wrong, you can decide for yourself. I know that many people get tired of my saying in sutta # such and such it says-- But I am showing that this is not my personal idea or opinion when I use the suttas in this way. So many people today want to use a free-lance style of teaching the Dhamma that sometimes they can say things that don't necessarily agree with the original teachings of the Buddha. I have found over the years that it is always best to show the sutta that I am talking about first then explain what I mean. Also because I take out the ditto marks many people don't like this. But I have found that this repetition helps the true student to get what the Buddha was saying set in their minds. Remember, this was an oral tradition and the repetition is necessary for the deeper understanding of the Dhamma. But today so many people are in a hurry to hear something just once then go on and then they forget what was said just as quickly. The repetition helps to overcome this. Hope I have helped you in some ways. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38447 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Rob, I haven't talked with him for some time. I will try to find out how he is doing. Venerable Silananda has taken on many major projections and maybe has worn himself out with all of these things. He has started a college for Bhikkhus in Yangoon and spends 6 months there and 6 months back here in the U.S. Anyway, I will try and find out. He is my Upajaya (spiritual father) and means a great deal to me. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38448 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:16am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, I am just off to bed (1:00 am here in Japan) but wanted to say I appreciate your reply. Will comment tommorow evening. with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is > wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta > descriptions. 38449 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:30am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Sarah, Thanks for giving right dosage. Nina's post is perfect. There is only one area to talk. But both of you and other abhidhamma learners know the point. But for clarification, I just pointed it out. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------***@@@***@@@***@@@*** Sarah: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, vedanåkkhandha(1). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Sankhara dhamma and sankhara khandha are frequently go into entanglement. Could you or Nina please explain on that? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and of consciousness. ***** [Feeling(Vedana) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38450 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:14am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Actually I never said that I directly practiced with Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, I read at your site long time ago and that you meditated in Myanmar. When I saw Robert K message, I thought you meditated under Mahasi Sayadaw. Now I am clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Even if I would gone to the Mahasi center when he was alive I doubt that I would have had the opportunity to practice with him directly. He was a very busy Bhikkhu, with his writing and taking care of center business. There are actually many teachers at Mahasi center. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually all bhikkhus are busy including you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: When I first went to Mahasi center my first teachers was Sayadaw U Lakkhana and after about 4 months he decided to leave. Then I practiced with Sayadaw U Pandita until the government asked the foreign monks to leave. I was there for a total of 8 months. In 1990 I went back to Burma and spent 2 years very intensely practicing with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa and was very successful according to the standards of those who practiced with this method. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are great Sayadaws. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: In the early 1980's I spent 2 years with Sayadaw U Silananda as his attendant, studying abhidhamma and the suttas. Sayadaw U Silananda was one of the chief editors at the 6th Buddhist council in Burma. Hope this clears things up a bit Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante, now everything seems to be clear. Thanks for your clarification. According to your website, you did a lot of meditation. But this site DSG is mainly on Abhidhamma discussions and they all love Visuddhi Magga. I do not ask you to discuss Abhidhamma. As you are a meditation teacher and you closely read suttas, I think it will be beneficial for all of us (DSG), if you could post 'Mahasatipatthana sutta' bit by bit with original materials. Many of abhidhamma learners will love to learn suttas if you clearly and non-judgementally post suttas bit by bit. Please include original Pali. I mean 1. first pure Pali 2. second Pali followed by translation 3. pure translation 4. your comment and anything that you would like to add and state clearly that what are your words. Which words say 'tranquilise' and which words say 'relax' and which words say 'let it go'. I am looking forward to hearing from you soon. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38451 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Sarah, I think we are basically saying the same things, with a few minor changes. Again my approach is not through words but direct experience so the language is a little different. When I first came onto this site I asked the question about what Pan~n~a meant and I see that you used the word understanding. Is this what Pa~n~na means to you? This is just a question to help me clarify what you are talking about not a leading question to pounce on. If I may suggest you trying one thing when you are practicing your yoga. Try relaxing your mind and body after every posture. I think you will find that there is still some tightness or tension in both your mind and body. I am talking about a subtle tightness not a gross one. When I am giving a Dhamma talk I use a closed hand to represent the tight mind and slowly open it to show how the feeling of openness arises. Then I drop the hand down a little to show the calmness that is like taking a little tiny step down and mind/body becomes peaceful and tranquil. The feeling of letting go of this subtle tightness is like watching a flower open up to the sun. It is an expansive feeling where there is no thoughts or tightnesses at all. This is what I call a pure mind/body, why? Because there is no craving in it at all. There is just a clear open awareness that is very alert and calm, i.e. perfect mindfulness and this is the mind that is redirected back to the meditation object. From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. When one lets go of this, the person will experience a kind of opening or expansive feeling arise in both their mind and body. This was probably not seen or recognized before. The tightness in the head is very subtle and if one is not used to seeing it, it may go unnoticed. I think the main differences between what you are saying and what I am saying is in how craving arises and manifests. You are talking about just being "mindful" of it and I am talking about letting it go and relaxing. There is a subtle difference there. I think the just being aware of it and letting it be is not quite enough. If one doesn't let it go, the rest of the process of Dependent Origination will carry on. For example, in the Satipatthana Sutta it says about the hindrances - "Here there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire in me' or there being no sensual desire in him, he understands, 'There is no sensual desire in me'. Lets stop here for a brief moment. This is being mindful to the fact that sensual desire is present or not. And this seems to be what you are talking about when you say just be mindful of this. But there is a much deeper insight to be seen when one goes on with this description it says: "He also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen sensual desire, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen sensual desire, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of abandoned sensual desire". In practical terms I think that just being mindful of the arisen sensual desire is not enough. And this seems to say the same thing. How does the arising of the unarisen sensual desire occur? How does the abandoning of the arisen sensual desire occur? And How does the future non-arising of the sensual desire occur? These are questions that need to be address in practical terms I think. To me just being mindful is not quite enough there has to be more that is done. As it says about right effort 1] notice that an unwholesome desire has arisen. 2] let the arisen unwholesome sensual desire go and relax the tension caused by that unwholesome sensual desire. 3] bring up a wholesome object. 4] stay with that wholesome object. So according to this sutta it takes more than simply seeing an unwholesome object, it takes the effort to change it and to bring up a wholesome object. This means in practical terms to let go of that hindrance, relax both the mind and body (tranquilize the bodily and mental formation as it says in the sutta on Mindfulness of Breathing) then to softly come back to the object of meditation [i.e. the breath and relaxing, loving-kindness, etc.] and then to stay with the wholesome object of meditation as much as possible. Then repeat this process as much as possible, whenever it is needed. In this way a person will begin to see more and more clearly just how this process is seeing dependent origination in action. In this way Pan~n~a (understanding of this process of Dependent origination) deepens and grows. Until eventually the total cessation of suffering is experienced (yes I am talking about Nibbana). This way of dealing with a hindrance can be done not only when formerly sitting in meditation, it can be done whenever a hindrance arises in one's daily activities, too! I hope this has been of some help to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38452 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 126 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 52 cetasikas. These 52 never arise together. There are 4 groups. The first group is 7 universal mental factors and they have been discussed where they arise. They arise with each of 89 cittas. Second group of cetasikas is 6 particular mental factors or 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. They are vitakka, vicara and piti which are jhanic factors and viriya, adhimokkha, and chanda which are not major jhanic factors. Jhana factors vitakka, vicara, and piti have been discussed in the previous post. Viriya or effort is a cetasika. It does not arise in all of 89 cittas. For example 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need viriya cetasika to do their job. Soon after arammana of 5 senses appear, bhavanga cittas have to stop and pancadvara avajjana citta arises and followed by one of 10 pancavinna cittas. These vinnana cittas are followed by 2 sampaticchana cittas which also do not need viriya as they just receive the object from 10 pancavinnana cittas. By the same token, 3 santirana cittas just investigate and viriya does not arise with them. So there are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 3 santirana cittas, 2 sampaticchana cittas and 1 pancadvara avajjana citta altogether 10 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 16 cittas do not need viriya cetasika in their arising. So viriya arises with ( 89 - 16 = 73 ) 73 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38453 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:45am Subject: Talk between Bhante & Sarah Dear Friends, This is to change the heading that currently running. It is between Sarah and Bhante Vimalaramsi. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38454 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah, E> Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. PEACE E 38455 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 127 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 6 particular cetasikas, 3 jhana factor and viriya cetasika have been discussed. There are another 2 cetasikas in 6 pakinnaka cetasikas. They are adhimokkha cetasika and chanda cetasika. Adhimokkha is decision. It is determination and it has been explained in cetasika portion of Dhamma Thread. We are currently discussing which cetasika can arise with which cittas. 7 universal mental factors of phassa/contact, vedana/feeling, cetana/volition, sanna/perception, ekaggata/one-pointedness, jivitindriya/mental life, manasikara/attention arises with each of 89 cittas. Vitakka cetasika arises only in 44 kamavacara cittas after exclusion of 10 pancavinnana cittas and 11 1st jhana cittas which are 3 loki 1st jhana cittas and 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. So vitakka arises in 55 cittas of 121 total cittas. Vicara also arises in these 55 cittas. But vicara arises without vitakka in 11 2nd jhana cittas ( 3 loki and 8 lokuttara ). So there are 66 cittas out of 121 cittas where vicara cetasika arises. There are 62 somanassa cittas. Among them 11 4th jhana cittas ( 3 loki and 8 lokuttara ) do not need piti cetasika. So piti cetasika arises in ( 62 - 11 = 51 ) 51 cittas of 121 total cittas. Viriya does not arise in 10 pancavinnana cittas, 1 pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas and 3 santirana cittas,altogether 16 cittas. So viriya arises in ( 89 - 16 = 73 ) 73 cittas of 89 total cittas. Again 10 pancavinnana cittas do not need to determine anything as they they just know their object of 5 senses. So adhimokkha cetasika does not arise in 10 pancavinnana cittas. When vicikiccha citta arises, that citta cannot decide on the object and it is called indecisive citta or suspicion or doubt. This is because there is no adhimokkha cetasika at all in this vicikiccha citta. So adhimokkha cetasika only arises in ( 89 - 10 - 1 = 78 ) 78 cittas of 89 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38456 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/18/04 12:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this > subtle tightening of mind and body. =================== I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much for it! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38457 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Dear Bhante (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/18/04 12:33:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. =================== I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much for it! With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in the D.O am I? With respect, Htoo Naing 38458 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/18/04 1:30:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Htoo: > > Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, > > I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent > Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never > been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38459 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38460 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Howard, Happiness has arisen and it makes me smile. Thank you for that! Strive on. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38461 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Dear Mike, op 18-11-2004 02:52 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, is > it? N: O yes! It is quite a big step when there is less clinging to self. Through the development of right understanding we notice more and more how deeply rooted clinging to self is, no matter what we do. We see ourselves as sitting, we cling to the postures! I want to be good, I again. I study, I again. I write, I again. And so on. Nina. 38462 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Dear Larry and Htoo, op 17-11-2004 00:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: what are dreams? N: Seeing or hearing in a dream seem to be very vivid and real, but we know that they are only cittas thinking of concepts through the mind-door. I find the explanation of the subcommentaries clear. Moments of deep sleep when there are no objects appearing are interspersed by short moments of dreaming, again and again. It seems that a dream lasts, but there are only short moments of them. When the dream seems to last longer, we may dream with kusala cittas (for example, when we dream about the Dhamma), but more often with akusala cittas, cittas with attachment, with fear and anxiety. What we think of during the day is remembered in a dream. As we read, the akusala cittas in a dream do not give as result an unhappy rebirth, but, it can give result in the course of life when supported by other kammas. This reminds us of the danger of akusala citta. Also when awake we often live as if in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We think of concepts through the mind-door, we remember what we have experienced before. Nina. 38463 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Vis. text: Ch. XIV, 114. (b) When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-liking it may be, the same kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as 'life-continuum' consciousness with that same object; and again those same kinds.[44] *** Note 44, taken from the Tiika: "With that same object": if kamma is the life-continuum's object, then it is that kamma; if the sign of the kamma, or the sign of the destiny, then it is one of those' (Pm. 478). N: All bhavanga-cittas arising throughout life in between the processes are the result of the same kamma that produced the rebirth-consciousness and they have the same object. **** Vis. text: And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river.[45] *** N: The Tiika explains the word continuity as: the continuity of the bhavangacittas. The bhavanga-cittas succeed one another like a stream, until there is the interruption of this stream when an object impinges on one of the six doorways and a process of cittas begins which experience that object. The Tiika explains that there is the interruption of this stream by another type of citta reckoned as adverting-consciousness (avajjana-citta). This citta is the five sense-door adverting-consciousness which adverts to a sense object, or it is the mind-door adverting-consciousness which adverts to an object through the mind-door. This citta succeeds the last bhavanga-citta before the mind-door process begins. The last bhavanga-citta is in this case the mind-door. Note 45, taken from the Tiika: ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact, thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). ***** N: a.nga: limb, constituent part or quality. Bhava.nga: constituent part of becoming or life. It keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. There is no moment without citta, also in between the processes or in dreamless sleep when there is not the experience of an object impinging on one of the six doors. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of] consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. N: Just like the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta can be of nineteen types. (see Vis. 113). ------------------------ Note of the translator: The word 'bhava.nga' appears in this sense only in the Pa.t.thaana (See Tika-Pa.t.thaana, P.T.S. ed., pp. 159, 169, 324). N: Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under contiguity-condition (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-consciousness is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of contiguity-condition. Note translator: For the commentarial description of dream consciousness and kamma effected during dreams, see VbhA. (commentary to ~Na.na-Vibha.nga, Ekaka) and A.A. (commentary to A. Pa~ncaka-nipaata, no. 196), which largely but not entirely overlap. Pm. [the Tiika] says here: 'The seeing of dreams is done with consciousness consisting only of the functional' (Pm. 478). ***** N: The Co. to the Book of Analysis, Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 154 explains that dreamless sleep is interspersed again and again with kusala citta, akusala citta or kiriyacitta. One may see or hear in one¹s dream, but these are experiences through the mind-door. One remembers what one has experienced before. A footnote, (no 22, on p. 215, quoting a subcommentary to the Book of Analysis, the Muula.tiikaa) explains about the kiriyacitta that dreams: the adverting-consciousness which is a kiriyacitta (inoperative or indeterminate) may arise two or three times, taking the place of the javana cittas and may then be followed by bhavanga-cittas again. Thus, in this case there is dreaming very shortly and then dreamless sleep again. The kiriyacitta does not refer to arahats, because arahats do not dream. The Dispeller of Delusion (p. 154, quoting the Co to the Gradual Sayings) explains about the result of kusala citta and akusala citta in a dream. Since it is weak it cannot produce rebirth-consciousness, but it can give result in the course of life when supported by other kammas. ***** Nina. 38464 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Dear Htoo, Thank you for your kind mails and suggestion about paras. Indeed, when the material is complex it is helpful to make shorter paras. op 17-11-2004 20:31 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Regarding vinnana, all 89 cittas are vinnana. They can be called > vinnana cittas or simply vinnanas. N: BTW, Viññaa.na is a synonym of citta. I have not seen viññaa.na in combination with citta. The elements that you classify are correct, in conformity with the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. Ht: 10 cittas are pancavinnana dhatu. > 3 cittas are mano-dhatu > 76 cittas are mano-vinnana-dhatu. > ---------- > 89 cittas in total. > > But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise > at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not > manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mano-vinnana-dhatu. > Could you please clarify me on these matters? N: The person who denied this was wrong. The santiira.nacitta that performs the function of investigating in the sense-door can also perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. A. Sujin said that this means that it is the same type of citta that performs the latter three functions as santiira.na-citta arising in a sense-door process: it is ahetuka, accompanied by the same types of cittas, but, she said that the Buddha did not introduce another name for the santiira.na-citta when it performs those three functions. I find it helpful to remember that mano-dhaatu performs functions in a sense-door process and mano-viññaa.na dhaatu performs functions in sense-door and mind-door processes and can also be door-freed and process freed. Nina. 38465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Phil, op 18-11-2004 03:16 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. N: I give you part of Lodewijk's address to the 120 Bhikkhus in Sarnath: Suttas help to instill confidence. You read suttas already. We learn that hate will never conquer hate. At the same time understanding of realities helps most to see the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala, and it helps us not to take kusala and akusala for self. While In India we discussed bad thoughts and someone afraid of the future, afraid of having them again. A. Sujin said, when someone asks: what should I do he is thinking of a situation instead of being aware of whatever dhamma appears. She said that he does not understand the meaning of anatta. There are conditions for the arising of akusala. It is not right to keep on regretting it instead of developing understanding. We talked about someone regretting strong akusala. It has arisen and is gone. It has happened. What can he do about what has gone? He is afraid for the future, that it happens again. That does not help, it is only thinking.The more we read the more we understand anattaness. We read in the Tipitaka about seeing and no one in seeing. about hearing and no one in hearing. We cannot really change the course of history, whatever happens is conditioned. But, as Lodewijk stressed, the four Brahma Viharas are the fundamentals of any peaceful society. Nina. 38466 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Howard and Sukin, First Howard: When you said: "avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by calm." I have a suggestion for you. When mind begins to sink try taking more interest in "HOW" this process occurs. The stronger the interest is the better the energy is. And this should help. I have found that every time I start to take more interest in how this process arises and passes away I get new insights. Now to Sukin; Please if you will indulge me for a moment. What does Pan~n~a mean? This definition is needed so I can understand what you are talking about. When you said: "If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. This is taught to us when the Buddha expounded the many different discourses on Dependent Origination and through direct practice we can see that we really do know exactly. This is not some form of philosophical debate or intellectual exercise, but can be verified personally when one takes the time and effort to do the practice of meditation in the way described in the suttas. When you asked: "And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental constriction'? I may ask you to go to the Anapanasati Sutta #118 in the Majjhima Nikaya and look at the instruction in how to meditate. If there were no mental or physical constrictions then why would the Buddha tell us to tranquilize the bodily and mental formations? It is quite plain to see for those with the interest to dig into the suttas. When you said: Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except by "thinking"! This is just intellectual ruminations that may sound good but have no real meaning. You wouldn't say things like this if you actually took the time to sit in meditation. And when you said: "This is why it is very important to know about Satipatthana and the objects which it can take." This is why I recommend that you try doing the practice instead of surface reading about it. There are no objects that the Satipatthana doesn't "take", whatever arises in the present moment is pretty well covered by this sutta. When you said: "And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for understanding is I believe and error in `thinking'. Here too there seem to be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of Satipatthana is and how it is developed. " What are you thinking about? The suttas continually talk about 'calm'. The calmer ones mind becomes the clearer they are able to see exactly "HOW" the process of dependent origination actually works. And if you will take a look at what I wrote to Robert you may begin to see just HOW important that truly is. It may be a good idea to check your sources of information before making these kinds of statements. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38467 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I really don't understand what you are talking about. Could you please explain the question again? Sorry. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38468 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 11/18/04 2:56:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > First Howard: When you said: "avoiding a sinking of a mind overcome by > calm." I have a suggestion for you. When mind begins to sink try taking > more interest in "HOW" this process occurs. The stronger the interest is > the better the energy is. And this should help. I have found that every > time I start to take more interest in how this process arises and passes > away I get new insights. > ===================== Thank you, Bhante. Sometimes that is not enough for me. I have taken to keeping on lights, and that has helped a bit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38469 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hey Howard & all, BV > From my experience after every thought or body movement there is this subtle tightening of mind and body. > =================== H>I have turned my attention to this as a result of your writing along these lines, and it has become quite clear to me, especially as regards thoughts (in my case). I am "excited" at seeing this direct mind-body interaction. > This has opened up for me a freshness to my practice, and I thank you very much > for it! The way I have been looking at it recently is: Persona = personality view = the mask that is created or worn by awareness. Just an illusory identification with the body as awareness solidifies via clinging towards the body. Ego=I AM= what we think we are, built on a foundation of thought. We begin to question the 'reality' of the persona from within this domain. Wholesome/unwholesome i.e. duality lies in this doamin. All our abhidhamic and suttanic ruminations lie in this domain. In a word, views. When awareness is unbridled by the subtle clinging to the body i.e. we quit looking thru the mask of the person (I think Bhante uses the word impersonal) and thought (views) can be dropped, then awareness can turn around and look in a transpersonal direction at itself. This is the directionless direction in which Nibbana lies. Yes, it is pretty much all in the Anapanasati Sutta. I am glad that Bhante V showed up. I belabored the merits of this sutta on deaf ears for a month or so. I guess most people only listen to elders that look the part. PEACE E 38470 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dhamma Greetings Phil, It may be helpful for you to take a look at what I wrote to Sarah today. I was in Burma doing a very intensive retreat for 2 years with Sayadaw U Janakabhivamsa in 1990 and didn't get back to the world until I left the meditation center. Only then did I find out that one of the major things to happen in my lifetime occurred. Russia had fallen and the end of the cold war was a reality. Imagine my surprise! I found out it happened in 1990, so I was 2 years behind the times. I took this as a sign that whatever happens in the world be it war or troubles of another kind it didn't really affect me or what I was doing. The point being that the more excited and angry you become about world events the less happiness arises. Are you sure that this "war" is real? What is the ultimate reality of this? My suggestion to you is this, stop reading about the war, stop listening about it, stop thinking and pondering about it. Let it go, it is nothing! In the things you wrote about the Buddha putting wholesome thoughts on one side and unwholesome thoughts on another needs to be expanded a bit. He asked himself a few questions before he could actually let the unwholesome thoughts go. 1] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to my happiness or affliction? 2] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the happiness or affliction of others? 3] does cultivating these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the happiness and affliction of both? 4] does the cultivating of these kinds of thoughts and feelings lead to the development of wisdom? 5] does the cultivating of these kinds of thoughts and feelings cause difficulties or not? 6] does cultivating these kinds of thought and feelings lead me to Nibbana or do they lead me away from Nibbana? If they do lead to your happiness, and to the happiness of others, and they do lead to the happiness of both, then bring them up often (and smile lots). The reality is this, you hear or read about something upsetting, a painful feeling arises at that time. Mind tightens around those thoughts and feelings. According to the way of seeing the 5 aggregates, feeling is one thing and thoughts (sankhara) are something else. Our habit is to try to stop the feeling with our thoughts and that just doesn't work! The more we try to think our feeling away the bigger and stronger the feeling becomes. So what to do? First and foremost, let go of those thoughts and relax the tension caused by indulging in them. Next notice the tight mental fist wrapped around this feeling and relax again. The Truth (Dhamma) of the present moment is, the feeling is there! And it is alright for that feeling to be there - it has to be because that is the Dhamma of the present moment. So allow the feeling to be there without trying to change it, control it, or make it something other than it is - just a painful feeling. Now smile to yourself for being caught (again!) and mentally laugh at just how crazy mind can be. Then send a wish for your own happiness and well being to yourself. If you actually do this there will be immediate relief. Keep wishing yourself happiness and peace and feel that happiness and peace enter your very being. You might say but, I really need to know what is happening around me in the world but your world is this Fathom long body! A story about how I affected the world around me and I don't read newspapers, listen to radio, or watch TV. I was teaching Loving-kindness meditation to a group of people in Washington DC when George Bush was running against Al Gore. One of my students worked for the Gore\Leiberman campaign. One day she told me that she would not be around for the next meditation class and I asked her why? She said her job was to put make-up on both Al Gore and Joe Leiberman before each debate. At that time I had given her a small mirror that said smile on it and told her to look into it occasionally and smile. (a form of self-metta) Anyway, the night of the debate between Cheney and Leiberman came so she was putting the make up on Joe and he was very restless and could barely sit still. So my friend got the mirror out of her purse and showed it to him. She told him to smile and then she began to tell him some of the things I had taught her in the class. He almost immediately became calm and his mind became focused. As I understand it, when Joe Leiberman had his debate with Cheney it was the best debate of the campaign. Because I don't watch TV, I didn't know what had happened until my friend came back to tell me what she had done. Now, I affected the world around me by example (I smile a lot and practice metta a lot). This is a practical way to change the world if you can only start with yourself. Hope this has been helpful Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38471 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections > Dear Mike, > op 18-11-2004 02:52 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > >> The absence of wrong view isn't any guarantee of right view of any kind, >> is >> it? > N: O yes! It is quite a big step when there is less clinging to self. > Through the development of right understanding we notice more and more how > deeply rooted clinging to self is, no matter what we do. We see ourselves > as > sitting, we cling to the postures! I want to be good, I again. I study, I > again. I write, I again. And so on. Well, yes, this kind of wearing away is a step in the right direction, I guess. Nice that understanding, wise consideration and so on provide the impetus for this kind of right effort, without the present 'willing' of it to occur. All quite natural I think (even inevitable), when the conditions have accumulated. mike mike 38472 From: Hugo Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:08:08 -0000, buddhatrue wrote: > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > don't have the printed copies) Excellent advice James! When we engage in discussions, there is the danger of fabricating theories, thoughts which then we think are Dhamma but they are not. The problem is that instead of learning Dhamma we fabricate our own version of Dhamma which would be Wrong View, and you know what happens next.....Wrong Action, etc. My personal opinion is that if a discussion is getting too far from the facts (whatever is considered the "facts", e.g. the suttas), or if either part of the discussion don't "know enough", then in starts to be "mental fabrications" and it will lead us to wrong view, wrong action, etc. so I prefer to stop the discussion. Plus, there is the side-effect of the newcomers reading that false Dhamma (yes, I know "false Dhamma" is an oxymoron, but I am trying to make a point) and think that it is Dhamma. Greetings, -- Hugo 38473 From: Hugo Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:26:13 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Howard, Bhante and Sarah, May I? > I also want to see direct mind-body interaction. D.O or Dependent > Origination has 12 links. I have asked several times. But I was never > been explained. Instead I was fed with indigestibles. > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? D.O. is in, out and all-around. Look at those lights, how did they come to appear?, are they stable or do they "move", "grow and shrink", "flash"? What caused the lights and colors to appear?, do you remember what were you thinking?, how was your breathing? Can you relate a certain kind of breathing and "feeling" that is present when the lights appear? Can you "make the lights appear" at will? Do these lights appear when you are meditating even in completely dark room ? Do they appear when you meditate with the eyes open or closed? How do the lights dissappear?, do they dissappear when any thought comes to focus? If you "lost" the lights because a thought came, can you bring them back? How can you do that?, what does that mean? Do the same with the colours, and any other feeling or thought that arises. Pain in the legs is a very good teaching aid, I can say that by direct experience!!, just don't torture yourself! Greetings, -- Hugo 38474 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:25pm Subject: ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hello all Thank you for the replies in the "evil thoughts" thread. I won't have time to read them until tonight as I am getting ready for work. A quick question that will help me in considering that thread. In CMA, and in Rob M's book, ottappa it is said that it is respect for others that motivates us to fear wrongdoing. Elsewhere, I have read a very memorable simile that hiri is like not wanting to grab an excrement smeared end of a stick, and ottappa is like not wanting to grab the red hot end. In other words, not wanting to get burned. My concern re "evil thoughts" seems to be more in this area - I fear the kammic implications of wishing (in those momentary impulses when I turn to the news) for the suffering of others. I know that it is foolish to worry about the patisandhi citta that is coming our way, that is beyond our control - but isn't ottappa more in this area, dreading the results of wrongdoing? I don't understand where respect for others comes into it. And can anyone tell me where that two-ended stick simile comes from? I read it somewhere. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s Before reading Nina's reply in the "evil thoughts" thread, I will say that last night I came across the "removal of distracting thoughts" series and found helpful reminders in it. I wonder why I didn't think of that series before posting "evil thoughts?" It takes such a long time for Dhamma to soak in. 38475 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:52pm Subject: Re: ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > And can anyone tell me where that two-ended stick simile comes from? I read > it > somewhere. Thanks in advance. It is on p50 of my book. Buddhaghosa used almost the same analogy in his Atthasalini, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I (p166 in my PTS version). I am not saying that Buddhaghosa copied my idea, but... :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38476 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Nina, Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? Is a memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images an uncertain status. Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). Larry 38477 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Wierd Workings of Archives Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been put into files which can be accessed at: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ When you click on the first link ( 00001 - 01000 ), and HTML document will open giving the first one thousand messages. It takes a bit to open as it is about 10 Meg in size; don't try this using dial-up :-) The first few files (from 00001 - 01000 up to 08001 - 09000) behave a bit strangely. If you try to select a portion of the file and "cut" / "copy" onto your clipboard and then try to "paste" into your Word document, it won't work. I have discovered that if you paste it to a Notepad document it will work (you can then cut again and paste into your Word document). Let me share a tip with you... I have opened each of the 36 files (up to message 35999). I then saved each of the files on my hard disk (the directory is 360 Meg in size). I have downloaded "Google for Desktop" which gives me the unbelieveably fast Google search capability for Word, PowerPoint, Excel and HTML files. Now, when I type in pakatupanissaya, it finds all instances in my Word documents, PowerPoint files and in all past DSG messages in less than one second (oops, if you put the accent on the "u" in your word file using a Pali font, it won't find it). The really nice thing is that I do not have to be connected to the Internet to search all these old messages! Metta, Rob M :-) 38478 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/18/04 7:49:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams > with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the > commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? Is a > memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply > as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images > an uncertain status. Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) > unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). > > Larry > > ======================== Here's my take - just mine. When I'm dreaming and I am "seeing", what I actually "see" is coming through the mind-door, not the eye-door, but it is still visual object (no differently from the mind-door awareness of an*actual* visual object after the eye-door process is completed). If, in a dream, one "sees a person" for example, what the mind actually "sees" is the mental correlate of a visual object, and *not* a person; the "person" is concept-only just as in the corresponding non-dreaming situation. What distinguishes dream experience observationally from waking experience in my opinion is that usually (but not always!), dream experience is not shared whereas waking experience typically is, and dream experience goes in fits and starts and includes events that are "odd" in many ways, the realization of which often leads to lucid dreaming, whereas waking experience has far greater continuity, uniformity of causality, regularity, and predictability, so that waking experience "trumps" dream experience in terms of apparent reality. What distinguishes dream experience from waking experience in terms of production is that dreaming experience is far more the sole result of one's own kamma than is waking experience, though even dream experience has other influences. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38479 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Howard, One thing that occurred to me is that a dream has a narrative quality, like a very short story with lots of free association and not much peripheral detail. In that sense it is similar to discursive thinking. The main difference between a story and a dream, though, is the strong sense of being there. I wonder if that is why an arahant doesn't dream--no sense of being. Larry 38480 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Dhamma Greetings Phil, Here is something that someone sent to me and I thought you would enjoy it. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi New Program..... > INSTALLING LOVE > > Tech Support: Yes, ... how may I help you? > > Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install > Love. Can you guide me though the process? > > Tech Support: Yes, I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?> > > Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What > do I do first?> > > Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located > your Heart?> > > Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is > it okay to install Love while they are running? > > Tech Support: What programs are running ?> > > Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge, and > Resentment running right now.> > > Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from > your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent > memory, but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Love will > eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called > High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and > Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. > Can you turn those off ?> > > Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?> > > Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke > Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and > Resentment have been completely erased. > > Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that > normal?> > > Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. > You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the > upgrades. > > Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - > Program not run on external components ." What should I do? > > > Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up > to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In > non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before > you can Love others. > > Customer: So, what should I do?> > > Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following > files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your > Limitations. > > Customer: Okay, done. > > Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system > will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty > programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from > all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is > completely gone and never comes back.> > > Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile > is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying > themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?> > > Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually > everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and > running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Free ware. Be sure > to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in > turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you. > > > Customer: Thank you > > > Please send this to every one you know. If you delete, it's okay; > love is not based on e-mails. 38481 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/18/04 11:26:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > One thing that occurred to me is that a dream has a narrative quality, > like a very short story with lots of free association and not much > peripheral detail. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think that waking experience has a narrative quality as well - rather like a soap opera, with some ups, lots of downs, and a consistently bad ending! ;-)) But yes, the dream is more like a short story, and the narrative is broken up in jumpy ways, and there is much fuzziness around the edges. -------------------------------------------------- In that sense it is similar to discursive thinking.> The main difference > between a story and a dream, though, is the strong > sense of being there. I wonder if that is why an arahant doesn't > dream--no sense of being. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A dream does, indeed, have much in common with discursive thought. Also, while I do not quite think it correct to say that a dream is a concept, I do think it is rather *like* a concept in the specific sense that it is a sankharic construction to a greater extent than are the elements of five-sense-door waking consciousness. In this regard, perhaps an arahant doesn't dream because s/he no longer creates new kamma, and dreaming is a kind of kammic construction. And yes, there is the sense of "being there" in a dream, which means that the stream of dream consciousness shares much of the sense of reality as does the stream of waking consciousness, probably because the mind-door objects in a dream are much the same as in waking experience, and the conceptual overlay is much the same also. ----------------------------------- > Larry > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38482 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:36pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) contd] ***** Questions i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling experience an object? ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have something in common. What is the characteristic they have in common? iii Feeling accompanies every citta. Can any kind of feeling accompany all cittas? iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of unpleasant feeling? v Why is body-consciousness (kåya-viññåùa) never accompanied by indifferent feeling? vi Which jåti is painful bodily feeling? vii Which jåti is unhappy feeling (domanassa)? viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa arise which cognize that unpleasant object? ***** [Ch.2 Feeling (Vedana) Finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 38483 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:hindrances Venerable Bhante, op 17-11-2004 21:45 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: (snipped) > when a meditator sees a hindrance arise, for example, and they let it go, > relax the tightness or tension caused by that hindrance and come back to > the object of meditation .. N: Thank you, Bhante for explaining how you see jhana. May the meditators develop their own understanding and know exactly when a hindrance arises, even sloth and torpor and doubt. May they know precisely when there is kusala citta with calm and when akusala citta! I wish them well! With all good wishes and respect, Nina. 38484 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? .... S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 38485 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, --- ericlonline wrote: > S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit > grasping here? > > I ..... S: And what is this 'I'? ..... > Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen > that it is superflous. .... S: You mean 'I' will quit grasping and then 'I AM' will dissolve? Will 'I' dissolve 'I AM' too?:-/ Metta, Sarah ======= 38486 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Dear Htoo & All, Thanks for your interest in the thread. --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Feeling is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Feeling is > conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. > Feeling which arises, falls away immediately, it does not stay. > Feeling is a khandha , it is one among the five khandhas, namely, > vedanåkkhandha(1). > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Htoo: > > Sankhara dhamma and sankhara khandha are frequently go into > entanglement. Could you or Nina please explain on that? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .... Very briefly: 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is of course nibbana. 2) sankhara khandha refers to the 50 cetasikas (mental factors)which are not included in the other khandhas. Vedana (feeling) and sanna (perception) both have their own khandha. So here, vedana is not included in sankhara khandha. Thx for raising it Htoo. As you say, there are many confusions in this area. Please explain in more detail if you would care to and any further questions are welcome too. We've just finished the chapter on vedana - 26 installments!! I hope you'll help with the questions as you did so beautifully for phassa. Metta, Sarah ====== 38487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 18-11-2004 00:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I am currently understanding that "lobha" encompasses both "like" > and "want". Is this correct? N: There are many shades and degrees of lobha, and it does not matter how we name them. L: These are such different phenomena that > it makes sense to me that "like" is usually accompanied by pleasant > feeling and "want" is usually accompanied by neutral feeling. N: Lobha can be accompanied by these two feelings, no matter you call it like or want. L: (snip)...But the taste itself does not actually taste good; it tastes > sweet and this taste is accompanied by neutral feeling. N: Taste or flavour is rupa, it does not know whether it is pleasant or not. It is important to know this. A rupa cannot be accompanied by feeling, only citta and cetasikas can. Feeling is a cetasika. L:What I want > is the pleasant feeling of like. N: right, we are attached to pleasant feeling. L: Sometimes desire is accompanied by unpleasant feeling bodily > sensation. Perhaps one way to make sense out of this is that this > bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. N: Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling. Only body-consciousness, the experience of tangible object can. It cannot be produced by rupa, it is produced by kamma. But perhaps you mean: conditioned by. It experiences tangible object only. You say: bodily sensation is a consciousness produced rupa. Sensation, it feels, experiences, thus it is not rupa. L: If it holds true > that this kind of rupa is produced by a root consciousness with a > corresponding feeling then dislike (dosa) produces a rupa experienced > as unpleasant bodily sensation, N: See above. L: "like" produces a rupa experienced as > pleasant feeling bodily sensation, N: True, like is nama and it can condition rupa, but again, we have to distinguish nama from rupa. (snip) L: I would say the dislike most likely has "not > possessing" or "not sensing what one wants or likes" as object but > there could also be dislike of "want" in a general sense. N: True, when things are not as we would like to be there is a condiiton for aversion or dislike. L: This seems to suggest that bodily unpleasant tension is usually > produced by dislike or hatred (dosa). Dosa tends to be self > reinforcing because dislike dislikes the unpleasant feeling of > dislike. N: True, aversion dislikes the unpleasant feeling. L: And furthermore the experience of desire _itself_ is > actually rather subtle. What do you think? N: There are different degrees. The coarse degree is easier to recognize, but clinging to self is harder to know. We are so used to it, from birth on. Nina. 38488 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Dan, --- "Dan D." wrote: > I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very > brief … S: It’s been a very long thread and at times a bit of a roller-coaster one, but I’ve enjoyed it and found it helpful in many ways. Thank you for persevering. As we’re looking at closure, I’ll try to sum up the remaining points of agreement/disagreement here: 1. We both agree the ti-lakkhana are characteristics of realities. You think there can be awareness of Suffering (aka 1st Noble Truth) without any prior understanding of namas and rupas. I think that without a clear understanding of the latter and furthermore of the characteristics of the arising and falling away of the latter, the inherent nature of dukkha cannot be penetrated. There cannot be awareness of dukkha *apart from* the reality which is known, just as there cannot be awareness of the nama quality, rupa quality or impermanence *apart from* that reality. 2. We both agree that namas *and* rupas are dukkha. You say the latter are dukkha because they are unsatisfactory as objects which is true. I would further say they are inherently unsatisfactory because they are impermanent. 3. We both agree that Sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path and as described in the Sammaditthi Sutta refers exclusively to panna which only takes realities as objects. In other words, it refers to moments of satipatthana (mundane sammaditthi) and lokuttara cittas (supramundane sammaditthi). Furthermore, we both agree that thinking about concepts of realities or any kind of conceptual knowledge is not the development of satipatthana or patipatti (practice) and should not be confused with the latter. Furthermore, we both agree that conceptual knowledge may not lead to the latter. 4. Where we differ here is that you do not accept there can be ‘conceptual right view’ which is an essential precursor to the development of satipatthana. You either do not accept that this conceptual right view is pariyatti or you do not accept that pariyatti precedes patipatti. You believe that only when there have been insights, including vipassana nanas, can there be any wise conceptual consideration or reflection. You do not accept that panna or sammaditthi can refer to reflections on truths or realities as taught by the Buddha if they have not been directly realized. You consider all such reflection to be a kind of speculation which is always wrong, regardless of whether the words are correct or the cittas are wholesome. Clearly my understanding is quite different here. 5. You believe that those from other backgrounds who have never heard a word about realities or the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha can have direct insights and realize at least some of the vipassana nanas in this life, even if they cannot become enlightened. I disagree. 6. You believe that one can have more of an idea of someone’s real understanding by observing their behaviour and actions over a long period and ignoring what they say or what theory they have. I disagree. I think it is primarily by their expression that we learn about their views. One person may have temper outbursts but a good understanding or realities. Another person may be very quiet and calm but have strong wrong views about self and cling a lot to having a certain show of personality, or not really be tested in this life. *** Finally, just a few more words on why I see this thread as being of importance. 1. If we don’t think we need to hear, consider and reflect a lot on the teachings and have an idea that insights will arise regardless, it will be a condition not to hear, consider and reflect. Even ariyans needed to listen and reflect further. 2. If we judge by the behaviour of others or oneself, we will be lost again in a ‘situation’ of how we think insight should manifest, rather than developing detachment from any reality regardless. 3. There is the likelihood that one will take apparent insights in others or oneself for being vipassana nanas when in fact they may well just be thinking about an idea of suffering, an idea of impermanence and so on. We have to consider and reflect a lot to appreciate how much ignorance there really is and how very little is known. 4. Only at the fourth stage of insight or vipassana nana is the impermanence of realities clearly understood. Only then can dukkha really be known. Before this, there has to be a clear understanding of the distinction between namas and rupas, a clear direct knowledge of the conditioned nature of these dhammas and a real understanding of khandhas. If we really think we understand the deep meaning of dukkha now, it’s likely to be a real hindrance to the development of the path. *** Thank you again, Dan, for the stimulating discussion. You’re most welcome to take issue with any of these concluding comments, but I’ll leave anything further to others on the sidelines at this point as I know you’ve heard more than enough from me. Thank you again for your patience. You’re a good friend in Dhamma. Metta, Sarah ======= 38489 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, I'm not sure if anyone answered your question here, so I'll just say a few words to try and bring it to life again;-) --- Antony Woods wrote: > I found this very interesting quote by the renowned meditation master > and > scholar Mahasi Sayadaw about how we deserve metta for ourselves. .... S: If you look in U.P. under 'metta', you'll see there have been many discussions on this point. You can follow any threads at the end of the posts there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts We think of ourselves and have attachment for ourselves for so much of the day anyway. If we have an idea of 'deserving more metta for ourselves' or of directing metta in this way, we will simply be accumulating even more attachment to this precious me. If we practice enough, we may have attachment to self all day and all night!! Instead, metta is the reducing of attachment for oneself by considering the needs of others and having the welfare of others in mind. ..... >My only > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical > Pali > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > *deserves* > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) .... S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be found)? ..... > > It doesn't seem consistent with the translation of the rest of the > passage. > > It is different saying that a person loves himself the most (the > standard > translation from the Mallika Sutta) and so if he loves himself he > wouldn't > harm another, and saying that he *deserves* his love and affection the > most > (I usually believe that I don't deserve to be happy which is a major > obstacle to meditation) .... S: I agree with your reading of the comments and the Mallika Sutta (the commentary notes to it are also in one of those U.P. posts). Whilst we are concerned about what we deserve, there cannot be any metta. the brahma viharas are for other beings. At the same time, when you think you 'don't deserve to be happy', we can see again that this is still attachment to self - finding oneself so important that deserves or doesn't deserve and so on. Whilst there is preoccupation with 'me' in these ways, there won'd be any metta, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity. In terms of the development of sati however, even such clinging to self can be known for what it is - just another conditioned dhamma. That's it! > ======= > "The Enlightened One has made an exposition by preaching a Verse as > quoted > below which indicates that a person loves his own self the most. > > Sabba disa anuparigamma' cetasa nevalihaga piyatara' mattana kvaci. Evam > > piyo puthu atta pareysam, tasama na him se paramattakamo. <...> > Patrick Kearney challenges this translation in the following link and > concludes saying "For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go > of > unworthiness and self-hatred" > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/162 > What do you think? .... Thx for the pali walk-through too - just snipped for space. Pls give anytime. I'm not sure that I understand the sentence above. Does it mean giving up attachment to the self? Who has no attachment to the self? Certainly the sotapanna still does. But I agree that it is because of such attachment that there are also the negative thoughts and feelings too. James wrote a good letter to the StarKids on this topic. Pls ask him or myself if you didn't see it - Patsy and Dominique in the Pizza Parlour. Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to continue the thread. Metta, Sarah p.s I also read with interest your comments on visible objects in post #37715 while we were away. I think that noting and being aware of visible object is a little different. Also, no need to select or be concerned about them having 'future potential'. This is just thinking about them. Again, I'm happy to share thoughts further on this. ====== 38490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] dreams Hi Larry, In a message dated 11/18/04 7:49:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Thanks for explaining this, very clear. Also the viewing of dreams > with adverting consciousness makes sense. I was wondering, did the > commentary explicitly classify the dream image as a concept? N: Dream image is a concept. Your eyes are not open and you do not see visible object, but it seems like you are seeing. It is like thinking or imagining. The co says: he sees a dream. The Co says that it is through the mind-door that the image is experienced, not through the sense-door. L: Is a > memory a concept? At this point I am understanding concept simply > as 'word', made up of name and meaning. But that gives mental images > an uncertain status. N: There are two kinds of concepts: an idea or image, and a name or term. A name can denote what is real or what is unreal. Remember Htoo¹s recent series on concepts. L: Also I don't know how to classify nimitta (sign) > unless it is as a manifestation of sa~n~naa (perception). N: Nimitta is image, or sign. It is a concept you can think of. It seems you see people, but in reality visible object is seen and falls away immediately. The image of a person is remembered and it seems to last. Yes, saññaa remembers images, meanings. I followed yours and Howard¹s discussions, but I had to go to the yahoo web which is not easy for me, expanding messages. My computer or provider does not pass on any mail, but I can send mail. We can dream with kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but we cannot say that kamma produces dreaming. Dreaming is like thinking, it is not vipaka. Arahats do not dream because they have eradicated all defilements. Nina. 38491 From: Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/19/04 1:39:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Questions > > i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > experience an object? > ======================== This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as a subject, and it is experiencing an object This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the way things seem to be. The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event arising from sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself a thing which experiences. When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of work feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a direct result of the bodily sensation of warmth. Are you folks saying that when it seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that a knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that function is a type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? That is, a pleasant feeling is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular way? We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly never ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask someone, however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality. It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is simply the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, much as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door object. So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds of experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. But Abhidhamma apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the taste has the property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, pleasantness becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the ice-cream taste is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that correct? With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38492 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > > > Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); > > Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been > put into files which can be accessed at: > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ .... Thanks so much for reporting back and I'm delighted to hear you've successfully downloaded onto your hard-drive. I'd like to thank you for putting us on the right track and for your keen interest in the project. I'd like to thank Kom for back-up support here and particularly to really thank JON & CONNIE who have both worked extremely hard and diligently to manually copy the entire archives, starting again at the beginning (THANKS CONNIE!!!), and get it all in order, the website set up and the files organised etc (THANKS JON!!!!). (Phil, loved your joke in yr thank you speech.....btw. I'll stop here;-). Rob, thanks for mentioning other glitches - I know Jon's still working on them. He's also experimented with the size, knowing how many friends rely on dial-up, but as DSG is so active, it's hard to keep up if we use smaller files as we were doing initially. I think I'll follow your example and (with help) download and look for google desk search. It has been (and continues to be) a very large project. I'm prticularly thrilled to know that the entire archives are safe and accessible. There are accounts of lists being wiped out and we've had this experience with the escribe back-up. We now have good back-up arrangements, I think. Like you say, the search potential is now almost solved, at least for those with good systems like yourself. Howard can look for 'spiral' anytime;-). Meanwhile, we're now onto our next big project of editing and making recordings of discussions with A.Sujin available.....so when friends like Herman wonder what we talk about when we have anytime together, apart from reading posts, the answer is 'archives, recordings, computer glitches and frustrations....' - that's about it!! Metta, Sarah ===== 38493 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hello Bhante Vimalararamsi Thank you! Very interesting. I was just going to go get to that other thread we were discussing in, but let me have a look at this from a beginner's Abhidhamma perspective. > > Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install > > Love. Can you guide me though the process? Phil: I think this is the question all newcomers to Buddhism ask, along with "I want to install peace." And there are all sorts of teachers offering ways to do this. I am beginning to see the way to love is to gradually eradicate the obstacles to love, the defilements that keep it from arising. I'm not keen on the notion of generating metta these days, though my understanding is just beginning to develop and I may go back to metta meditation. > > Tech Support: Yes, I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?> > > > > Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What > > do I do first?> > > > > Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located > > your Heart?> Phil: To get to it, you have to go through my stomach! Haha. > > Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is > > it okay to install Love while they are running? > > > > Tech Support: What programs are running ?> > > > > Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge, and > > Resentment running right now.> Phil: Very interesting. Very Abhidhamma. All these cittas are rising and falling, moment by moment. They are programmed in a sense by conditions. They will run whether we want them to or not - but we can develop right understanding that sees clearly just what it running, and those moments of right understanding will condition more of the same until......the computer goes PING! > > Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from > > your current operating system. Phil: This is the standard teaching of metta. Today I found this, from Anguttara Nikaya VI 13. "When metta has been developed, pursued, handed the reins, there is no way ill-will would leap up." Frankly, I think this is very questionable. I think panna is developed, and eradicates defilements and obstacles to love, and then there is no way ill-will would leap up because ill will is the defilement that has been eradicated by wisdom, not by love. Love doesn't do it. I honestly don't believe that sitting and generating metta does anything except make the meditator feel better, more calm. It is a panacea, a painkiller. It is not a penetrator or eradicator of defilements. In my opinion. You will hear me (read me) developing this idea a lot in the weeks/months/years to come. I am very, very interested in Brahma-Viharas. >> It may remain in your permanent > > memory, but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Phil: It (past hurt) *will* remain in your permanent memory, and it *will* disrupt other programs on occasion Who is this irresponsible service technician! It is not so simple to eradicate defilements. >> Love will > > eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called > > High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and > > Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. > > Can you turn those off ?> Phil: No! And if the service technician says yes, I am going to phone the better bussiness bureau and complain! > > > > Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?> > > > > Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke > > Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and > > Resentment have been completely erased. Phil: I suppose forgiveness would be karuna. It can't be selected from a menu. It arises, as do all kusala cittas, when many conditions are fulfilled. It is a rare but powerful occurence when it arises. Sitting at home and deciding to forgive someone is not true forgiveness. We are just trying to dodge the dosa we are feeling in our anger. We would be best to remember that the anger is nama, it will fall away duie to conditions, just as it arose due to conditions. There is no need to dodge it. Also no reason to hold on to it, of course. If we have right understanding, even at an intellectual level, of rupa and nama, we will naturally begin to let go of anger much more easily. I speak from experience. I used to hold on to grudges for days. I would stew on a perceived injustice right through the day. Now it is so easy to let things go. Thanks to Abhidhamma. > > Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that > > normal?> > > > > Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. > > You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the > > upgrades. Phil: I like this part! Yes, it's out in the world in interaction with others that Brahma-Viharas arise and fall in the most meaningful way. WHen I used to do metta meditation, I would set-up the base program. That is a good metaphor for what I used to do. Contemplate on sources of aversion, generate metta for them. And sure enough, when I went out in the world, I would find that I felt more loving-kindness for them. The morning metta work conditioned that. *But* I came to realize that what was really happening was that I was trying to paint the world with metta to make it more pleasant. I will be posting more about this in the months to come. I'm not sure that what I was doing was not good Dhamma. It may have been. But it wasn't *really* metta. But I'm not sure about that either. Real metta was what happened one day when I was opening my socks drawer and suddenly felt great friendliness towards George Bush and a desire, a true desire, for world peace. Someday that true aspiration for world peace will arise in a more lasting way in me because there will be fewer obstacles. That is what that experience has told me so far. But as I said, I will still be thinking about it. > > > > Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - > > Program not run on external components ." What should I do? > > > > > > Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up > > to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In > > non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before > > you can Love others. Ph: This is also the standard teaching of Metta. I think it is healthy. I don't believe in beating myself up in order to reach the truth. It's all middle way. But again, with an understanding of rupa and nama we come to see that in the absolute sense there is no *me* and no *other* The khandas come to be seen as a dissolution (I prefer that to seeing them as a disease, or other similes that are used) Sense of *me* dissolves, in a moment - even intellectualy this can be achieved in a fairly helpful way - and rather than loving oneself there is equanimity, detachment. And then there is the person again. The people. But no longer the strong self-identity that makes us judge people and struggle with people and, yes, love people. > > Customer: So, what should I do?> > > > > Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following > > files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your > > Limitations. > > > > Customer: Okay, done. > > > > Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system > > will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty > > programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from > > all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is > > completely gone and never comes back.> > > > > Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile > > is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying > > themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?> > > > > Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually > > everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and > > running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Free ware. Be sure > > to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in > > turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you. > > Phil: Love rules, no doubt about it. Whether it is generated by intention, or arises due to conditions, love rules. The only reason I am so picky about the way I understand metta is because I know how important it is, and because I value it so. So thanks for sending this along, Bhante! You are certainly a warm-hearted and loving person. I can feel that. And am very grateful to be able to correspond with you, albeit it in an impudent way! Metta, Phil p.s I was going to reply to that other thread (two views of anatta) but have run out of time. Please forgive me. I'm feeling very pressed for time these days. Conditions are arising in a way that have me interested in my Japanese study and a novel I'm trying to write again. Apologies to all in the Evil Thoughts thread if I can't get back for a few days. I know there is no need to apologize, but I am Canadian. 38494 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Sarah: 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is of course nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So thing which is not a reality is not sankhara dhamma and equally it is not non-sankhara dhamma. :-) ???Pannatti ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 2) sankhara khandha refers to the 50 cetasikas (mental factors)which are not included in the other khandhas. Vedana (feeling) and sanna (perception) both have their own khandha. So here, vedana is not included in sankhara khandha. Thx for raising it Htoo. As you say, there are many confusions in this area. Please explain in more detail if you would care to and any further questions are welcome too. We've just finished the chapter on vedana - 26 installments!! I hope you'll help with the questions as you did so beautifully for phassa. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are clear. I feel that 'sankhara dhamma' is dhamma. Here 'sankhara' becomes an adjective which modifies the word 'dhamma'. Sometimes short forms are used. That is .. Sankhara dhamma = Sankhara For example.. Sabbe sankhara aniccaa .. Sabbe sankhara dukkhaa Here the word 'dhamma' is omitted. Sankharakkhandha is khandha. It is sankhara khandha. So it is a khandha. Again 'sankhara' becomes a modifier. But this is never used in short form like.. Sankhara khandha = Sankhara The main problem is usage of Pali language and its translation. When we say sankhara it means 'sankhara dhamma' that is 'cittas, cetasikas, rupas'. When we say sankhara, it is not just sankharakkhandha which are 50 of 52 cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am wondering what Nina would think in this matter. What do you think? 38495 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:50am Subject: Dependent Origination and its 12 links Do they appear when you meditate with the eyes open or closed? How do the lights dissappear?, do they dissappear when any thought comes to focus? If you "lost" the lights because a thought came, can you bring them back? How can you do that?, what does that mean? Do the same with the colours, and any other feeling or thought that arises. Pain in the legs is a very good teaching aid, I can say that by direct experience!!, just don't torture yourself! Greetings, Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hugo, I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. There are 12 links of DO. Now I see the light. Where exactly is the DO? With Metta, Htoo Naing 38496 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > the D.O am I? > .... > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 38497 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" ========================= Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, Sarah has answered my question satisfactorily. I was thinking the difference between you and Sarah. When one was confused, another has already answered the question. This may be because of 'sanna' and 'pannatti'. :-) You do know Bhara Sutta. There is a bulk. There is the bulk carrier. There is the way to throw away the bulk. Who carries 'the bulk'? The answer is no one is carrying. This implies the same principle. I was just inviting comments from D.O experts. Sarah said there is no 'I' in D.O. Yes. This is very true. But I was trying to indirectly see D.O. :-) Direct seeing of D.O is the matter of Ariyas. :-) I will be looking forward to hearing from you. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38498 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:08am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Venerable Sir, Thanks for your reply. I do know this project is hard. May I have the contact details of Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi of Bodhi Monastry in New Jersey? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38499 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:46am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Venerable Sir, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the > many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even > getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have two Pali-English dictionaries on my PC (both in .PDF format, suitable for searching). The small one is by Nyanatiloka (402 pages - 1.6 Meg) and the large one is the PTS Pali-Text dictionary (about 1778 pages - 12.4 Meg). If you would please send me an email to rob.moult @ jci.com Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Nina wrote: Dear Larry and Htoo, op 17-11-2004 00:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: what are dreams? N: Seeing or hearing in a dream seem to be very vivid and real, but we know that they are only cittas thinking of concepts through the mind-door. ..snip..snip..but more often with akusala cittas, cittas with attachment, with fear and anxiety. What we think of during the day is remembered in a dream. As we read, ..snip..snip..we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We think of concepts through the mind-door, we remember what we have experienced before. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Larry, Howard and All, Once I had discussed on dreams extensively with Amara. Whether reality or not 'human brain is a miracle'. Even 'The Brain of The Buddha had to take rest'. Neurophysiology says human beings is in the sleep-awake cycle. When we sleep there are two types of sleeping. One is dreaming state and another is dreamless state. In scientific term, they are called REM and NREM sleep. In REM sleep that is Rapid-Eyeball-Movement sleep, our eye balls are roving from side to side. This can be observed in any of sleeping people. In REM, there is dreaming. When NREM comes that is Non-Rapid-Eyeball-Movement sleep, eyeballs stop to move and the people concerned sleep very deeply. This is dreamless state. In normal people, these 2 sleeps alternate. When this rythm is disturbed, there will be physical as well as mental problem. When we are dreaming, actually all of our 5 sense doors are closed. So what we see, hear, smell, taste, touch in our dream are not pancavinnana cittas. When there is no pancavinnana cittas, there is no pancadvara vithi vara. So all dreams are manodvara vithi series only. Manodvara vithi is like the following letters. BBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBBB ( vibhutarammana or clear object ) BBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJBBBBBBBBB ( avibhutarammana or less clear object ) B represents bhavanga citta, J for javana citta, T for tadarammana cittas which are one of 3 santirana cittas or one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. Manodvara vithi has only 3 kinds of vithi citta. They are manodvaravajjana, javana, and tadarammana. When there is no tadarammana there will only be manodvarvajjana and javana. Manodvaravajjana is only one. But javana function of citta is performed by 55 cittas. Again sleeping cannot be magga and phala. So 47 left. No sleeping man is in jhana. So 5 rupakusala cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, and 4 arupakiriya cittas do not arise in sleep. So there left 29 cittas. These 29 cittas are called kamavacara javana cittas. They are 12 akusala cittas, 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas and 1 hasituppada citta ( 12 + 8 + 8 + 1 = 29 cittas ). If these dreaming javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, then all dreams that are not on kiriya cittas produce kamma. But this kamma is weak and it does not give rise to patisandhi cittas but it can give rise to pavatti cittas or in the course of life events like 7 ahetuka akusala vipakacittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipakacittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas. Human dreams do not give rise to rupavipaka or arupavipaka cittas as dream are not jhana cittas. Do arahats dream? When a dream comes it hit BBBBB series. And BBBBBB stop after a few steps say about 2 Bhavanga cittas. Then Manodvaravajjana SEES the dream and Javana cittas follow. As it is manodvara vithi, the dream which is an object is dhammarammana. Dream is not nibbana. Dream is not 5 pasada rupas. Dream is not 16 sukhuma rupas. Dream is not 89 cittas. Dream is not 52 cetasikas. Dream is 'pannatti'. Does pannatti arises? No. Never arise. So why do dreams come to exist? Human brain is a miracle. There are many relay centres through the brain. Nearly 99 percent of cells are supportive cells. Nerve cells are linked with each other. Memory in science is also a miracle. When a nerve cell knows the message, it transmits the message to nearby nerve cells. There is a storehouse for memory in the brain. When these areas are destroyed by blockage of blood supply or bleeding, then memories stored in those cells are all lost permanently and unrescueable. From a sense organ to a nerve cell and then there are many pathways of nerve cells to the memory storehouse. Some pathways are very very short, some short, some medium and some long and some very very long. When the messages are carrying through the long pathways, and there is no other new message, there is no disturbances and memory will set in the storehouse and store them as remote memory and they last long. When a message is being carried, if another message come in and further messages come in some messages do not go up to the storehouse area and they are lost in the way. When sleeping, our brain is in activity like our heart. Brain is active all the time even when we take rest or sleep or deeply sleeping. When there is no brain acivity, then it is said to be brain death. When we sleep, nerve cells are functioning. Some long pathways are still going to their destination memory storehouse. These pathways are sometimes disturbed by biochemical changes in the body which again is related to food that we eat, our activities when we are awake, our mental state when we are awake. When these changes occur, then there are some distortion of the pictures that are being carried through different pathways and these distorted picture ( movies) are informed to sensory perception areas and deep memory areas. That is why some dreams are remembered for a few seconds as soon as we wake up, and some dreams last for 5 or 10 minutes and some dreams last even for years. I still remember some dreams 30 years ago. When we sleep, messages are flowing through different nerve cells. Some messages are reported to specific areas for understanding. All these scientific data when they are looked into, all are concepts or pannatti. Now let us go back to Abhidhamma and realities. BBBBBB once this flow is stopped and manodvaravajjana citta arises and then this citta is followed by akusala or kusala javana cittas. As these are not free of defilements, again basing on the first object that manodvaravajjana citta sees, new and new vithi vara arise as dreams. But in case of arahats, BBBBBBB even when stopped, manodvaravajjana arises and followed by mahakiriya cittas. It is hard to arise hasituppada citta in dream. In this case as there is no defilement there is not many continuation of vithi vara and then back to BBBBBB. So there seems not to be any dreams at all. All dream states are related to our clinging, craving, day time activities, likeness and dislikeness, our food, our environment or utu and our mentality. Dreams are not vipaka as can be seen in manodvara vithi vara. BBBBBBB all vipaka BBBBB M J J J J J J J T T BBB No dream is vipaka cittas. So dreams are not affected by kamma. But dreams are affected by citta, utu, ahara. When there is a real object outside like a fire alarm, sleeping person's ear is perceiving that sound. But as he is sleeping, he is not at sotavinnana citta. But this real object hit frequently so that bhavanga cittas have to release their past object and manodvaravajjana citta arise and take the sound indirectly. This means not through sotavinnana citta. From the ears to the brain many messages regaring fire alarming sound are being carried. But as he is sleeping and not awake this is in away distorted and the person is dreaming as if he hears some similar sound in his ears when he is awake. But that dream has to stop when he becomes awake and realises that there is a real fire alarm. But the dream happens. This is effect from environment. Those who practise metta brahmavihara dream less. Even they dream, their dreams are pleasant one. This is because of citta affecting on the body and then dream. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Anyone who want to copy this message is permitted to do so. Acknowledgement is good to do. But not essential in taking this message. 38501 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:35am Subject: India 2004 photos Dear Friends, We've put just a few pix from the trip in a temporary file in the DSG album. As space is limited, we'll probably remove this album in a few days. Talking of photos, may I encourage any new (or old) members to add their photo in the member album? Bhante V, could someone help copy your photo? I know James could manage this, for example. Eric? Htoo?....anyone else? Metta, Sarah ======== 38502 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Htoo:>But once I was attacked that manovinnana cittas are cittas that arise at mano or mind door. So all door-free cittas seem to be not manovinnana cittas and so they will not be mano-vinnana-dhatu. Could you please clarify me on these matters? --------------------------------------------------------------------- N: The person who denied this was wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You may smile if I say the person is not a man. But please continue to read these sentences but that person is a woman. You may immediately know who she is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: The santiira.nacitta that performs the function of investigating in the sense-door can also perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. A. Sujin said that this means that it is the same type of citta that performs the latter three functions as santiira.na-citta arising in a sense-door process: it is ahetuka, accompanied by the same types of cittas, but, she said that the Buddha did not introduce another name for the santiira.na-citta when it performs those three functions. I find it helpful to remember that mano-dhaatu performs functions in a sense-door process and mano-viññaa.na dhaatu performs functions in sense-door and mind-door processes and can also be door-freed and process freed. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina. I am clear on mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu and panca-vinnana-dhatu. But regarding 'vinnana' there are panca-vinnana and mano-vinnana. So are mano-dhatus also mano-vinnana? With respect, Htoo Naing 38503 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 114 and Tiika Nina wrote: Note 45, taken from the Tiika: ' "occurring endlessly": this is, in fact,thus called "bhava.nga" (life-continuum), lit. "limb" (or "practice"--see Ch. II, par. 11) of becoming) because of its occurring as the state of an 'a.nga' ("limb" or "practice") of the rebirth-process becoming (uppatti-bhava)' (Pm. 478). ***** N: a.nga: limb, constituent part or quality. Bhava.nga: constituent part of becoming or life. It keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. There is no moment without citta, also in between the processes or in dreamless sleep when there is not the experience of an object impinging on one of the six doors. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of those same [nineteen kinds of]consciousness should be understood as life-continuum. N: Just like the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta can be of nineteen types. (see Vis. 113). ------------------------ Htoo: Dear Nina, these 19 cittas have to do the job of life continuum. In a being, to exist as a being he or she needs support. These supportive dhammas are called ahara dhamma. There are 4 ahara dhamma. 1 rupa ahara and 3 nama aharas. These 19 cittas are vinnana ahara. When a being lack support but there are still vinnana ahara, then he or she is still alive. Once I asked you about kamma. What I asked was kamma as ahara that is manosancetana ahara. That kamma-ahara is actually all past kamma. They are 29 cittas and 33 cetasikas. But in kamma paccaya there also is sahajata kamma paccaya. In that any cetana in any citta serves as sahajata kamma paccaya. What I asked was kamma-ahara which is manosancetana ahara. You said both paties were right. With respect, Htoo Naing 38504 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:50:21 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. I don't understand the above phrase. Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells you "THE" Answer? I thought that Buddha said we need to practice to find the answer, and not to ask somebody for the answer as each one will tell us the answer from their own experience, also he didn't said that we need to go and read the answer somewhere. If I am wrong, somebody please correct me, as I am still a beginner. So, if somebody answers your question, I would recommend that you take it with a grain of salt and verify it for yourself so you can be convinced (again, it is not me, but Buddha who said that, sorry, I don't have the Sutta # but I think it is in the Kalamas Sutta) > There are 12 links of DO. Now I see the light. Where exactly is the > DO? This is a different question than the one you first posted. It is good that you keep changing the question, that helps you investigate things from different points of view, just watch out for wrong questions (as the Buddha warned us, again, I don't remember the Sutta #). Your original question: > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > the D.O am I? So, in the first question you ask "where am i?", and in the second question you ask "where is the D.O.?" Both questions involve a self (first: "I", second: "the D.O."), so answering them is not fitting according to what the Buddha taught. On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. mmmm.....now..... thinking a little bit more..... Htoo, what is the real reason you are asking these questions? I have read some of your other e-mails, and I thought you were much, much more "literate" (If I can use that word) than me in terms of Buddhism, so I am kind of "shocked" that you have issues with D.O. at that level, so I think that maybe it is not that you want to learn, but you want to teach us something. If that's the case, go ahead I am all ears (well, technically speaking, I am all eyes, as it is reading). Also, knowing that you are a Buddhist, I can't imagine that you do ask these questions with any bad intentions (e.g. make fun of somebody, show off superiority, etc.), so I know there is a very good intention and probably a lot of wisdom in your questions. I am a beginner and not a wise man, so please explain a little simpler so I can understand what are you trying to teach. P.S. I do intend to read the Abhidamma, it is in my queue (very long now) of readings, I think I need to learn more basic stuff before, so in the meantime all my reference is the Suttas and commentaries and teachings from some modern monks like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Mun, Thanissaro, Bodhi, Henepola Gunaratana, etc. Greetings, -- Hugo 38505 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Htoo, > > I really don't understand what you are talking about. Could you please > explain the question again? Sorry. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Venerable Sir, When you reply in such a way in the busy list, how could I know what you are responding? May I humbly ask you to include some portion so that your message could help what part you are responding? With much respect, Htoo Naing 38506 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D So are differentiating conceptual right view from mundane right view. Or do you mean they are the same :). If they are different, then it is true that conceptual right view cannot be path leading to insight. If they are the same, then conceptual right view is the path leading to insight Ken O --- "Dan D." wrote: > > > > than > > conventional right effort constitutes Right Effort. > > Nor does conceptual right view does lead to Right View any more > than > > conventional right effort leads to Right Effort.> > > > > k: I am wondering which sammadithi are you talking about, > > supramundane and mundane. > 38507 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links Htoo:> I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. Hugo wrote: I don't understand the above phrase. Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells you "THE" Answer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see you have a good command in Dhamma as well as mental power. Yes. Basically I mean I am waiting somebody. That is why I changed the heading to 'Dependent Origination and its 12 links'. You may know that I am still learning. I just invited experts to invlove and discuss Dhamma so that all members can learn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: So, in the first question you ask "where am i?", and in the second question you ask "where is the D.O.?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I may also notice that I also used different question words. First I used 'when in D.O' and next I used 'where in D.O'. Where is the D.O is 'asking to explain D.O in realtion with cakkhu vinnana citta etc and so on.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: Both questions involve a self (first: "I", second: "the D.O."), so answering them is not fitting according to what the Buddha taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But the flow is for discussion. That is Dhamma is dhamma and there is no self at all. But when we conventionally discuss, there has to be identity so that we are not lost on the way while we are discussing. I mean 'when an adopted child realises that his adopting father is not his blood-related father, he is still using Dad for his adopting father even though he has realised the man is not his father.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hugo: mmmm.....now..... thinking a little bit more..... Htoo, what is the real reason you are asking these questions? I have read some of your other e-mails, and I thought you were much, much more "literate" (If I can use that word) than me in terms of Buddhism, so I am kind of "shocked" that you have issues with D.O. at that level, so I think that maybe it is not that you want to learn, but you want to teach us something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already said above. I just invited. Instead of using 'teaching', I use 'I am discussing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: If that's the case, go ahead I am all ears (well, technically speaking, I am all eyes, as it is reading). Also, knowing that you are a Buddhist, I can't imagine that you do ask these questions with any bad intentions (e.g. make fun of somebody, show off superiority, etc.), so I know there is a very good intention and probably a lot of wisdom in your questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not do funny. Once I asked sincerely. But I did not get the answer. Instead I was criticized that I asked childish question. If you follow my emails 'Dhamma Thread' you will find that I tried to explain even 'ABC'. But when I asked ABC of D.O, I was not answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: I am a beginner and not a wise man, so please explain a little simpler so I can understand what are you trying to teach. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is explained above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo: P.S. I do intend to read the Abhidamma, it is in my queue (very long now) of readings, I think I need to learn more basic stuff before, so in the meantime all my reference is the Suttas and commentaries and teachings from some modern monks like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Mun, Thanissaro, Bodhi, Henepola Gunaratana, etc. Greetings, -- Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think all are actually beginners as long as they have not seen nibbana. Nibbana is seen only by magga cittas and phala cittas. I hope discussions are beneficial for all. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38508 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] ottappa - fear of wrongdoing Hi Phil dont be trap by evil thought because the more we dwell on it or the more we dragged the appearance on evil thoughts, they accumulates in the latency. Likewise for kusala thoughts :) So treat each thought (including kusala ones) especially evil ones as just not me, not I and not myself. To me this would let us see the world would as a simpler place to live in, the mind will naturally be peaceful :). As what I always say, practise is all around us and every moment, we should do it now and not have to wait and do it :). Can we stop senses from doing what they are conditioned to do, hence there so many avenues and chances for us to practise in our waking hours :), why wait :)? Anyway, enjoy it while we can, we never know when panna is popping out to help us. Do keep writing your interesting mails :). Cheers Ken O 38509 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah Dear Sarah, Jon, Nina, Chris, Robert K, Mike and all How are you? Sarah wrote: "However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-re?uisites. Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria." I do not see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in any way to developing an understanding of the teachings. But, I do distinguish between a reader of Sanskrit and a Sanskritist. I read Sanskrit from time to time, but I am not a Sanskritist. A Sanskritist is usually one who thinks that they understand Pali by knowing Sanskrit alone, and one who interprets Pali terms as though they were Sanskrit words. Sanskritists are usually ideologically- motivated, too. As a result, they usually find Standard Pali Commentaries to be very unpalatable because the latter prevent them from interpreting the Buddha's teachings as they please. Sanskritists also think that they can increase their academic standing by criticizing and disparaging Aacariya Buddhaghosa, the Intellectual Giant, the Greatest Buddhist Commentator of all time both in terms of scope and depth. Who can forget that a Sanskritist (Stephen Hodge) butchered Nina's good translation of a passage of Anguttara commentary Pali on Pali list? About how employment as an academic being a handicap? When I mentioned Professor Kalupahana as a paid-academic in my post, I happened to remember Dr Peter Masefield's confession on Pali list a few years ago. I forgot his exact statement, but I remembered his saying to the effect that he, being a young academic, had to yield to the demands and requirements of the publisher (the source of his income and academic credentials). Universities in the western nations are highly commercialized institutions. Courses are designed to suit market forces. They may advertise themselves as centres of excellence, but they are not suitable environments for genuine Buddhist scholarship, let alone seeking truths in the Buddhsit sense. No university in Australia has a proper department of Buddhist Studies with a dedicated large-scale Pali Centre. I do not think that UK and USA are also any different in this regard. Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a Sanskritist and a paid-academic - only in the context of him expressing speculative personal opinions (attanomati) about Aacariya Buddhaghosa. Only in that light, I advised Joop and his like-minded people to see those opinions as they are. And not to accept them as if scientific facts! With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Suan (& Joop), I appreciated your discussions with DN while we were away and especially the quotes you provided on phassa (contact). you may like to repost any of the discussion for Nina to see sometime. Thank you for these contributions. As you know, I'm also not a fan of Prof Kalupahana's writings -- at least of the extracts that have been quoted here, which may be unfair on my part -- and I also share your great respect and feeling of indebtedness to Buddhaghosa and the commentaries. However I'm curious to know whether you really see a knowledge of Sanskrit and employment as an academic as being obstacles in anyway to developing an understanding of the teachings and whether you see a background in science and Pali expertise as really being essential pre-requisites. Obviously most of us would fail here on the latter criteria. Metta, Sarah 38510 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:02am Subject: Re: Need help here :) Hi Lee You have to ask Dr Mehm Tin where do he get the information that the seventh javana is the strongest because of the accumulative effect of the past javana. RobM and Sarah has provided materials from Visud and also Commentary to the Abhidhamma Sangaha. Material from Dispeller of Delusion (commentary to Vibhanga) also states the same way as said in Visud and Abhidhamma Sangaha. I will check Vibhanga next time as I have no time right now :) In most cases, the first javana and the seven javana can have lapse kamma while those on the five javana will definitely see fruits of the kamma. Hence we cannot assume that seven javana is stronger than the five javana. Another issue aside, in fact the kamma arise from the second javana onwards could determine the kamma for a 100,000 aeons (I remember I read it somewhere, maybe I have misread it :) ) this is how strong a javana process is. Ken O 38511 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Htoo (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/19/04 6:44:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Sarah: > > 1) sankhara dhamma refers to any or all conditioned dhammas, i.e > namas and rupas. The only reality which is not a sankhara dhamma is > of course nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So thing which is not a reality is not sankhara dhamma and > equally it is not non-sankhara dhamma. :-) ???Pannatti > ========================= Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would think, be unacceptable. This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38512 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 128 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We are dealing with cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas cannot be separated out. But cetasikas do exist and they are realities. So it is important to understand cetasikas. We have discussed on classifications of cittas. Then we have touched each citta in turn one after another until we finished with all 89 cittas or all 121 cittas. After that we moved to 52 cetasikas. The third dhamma after first citta, second cetasika that we have discussed is rupa dhamma. We have talked on implications of rupa dhamma and different combination of rupa called rupa kalapa. Then some idea regarding nibbana was explained. Pannatti dhamma is also essential to know and understand. Different pannatta dhammas were explained in the previous posts under the heading of Dhamma Thread. So we have touched all dhammas. They are paramattha dhamma and pannatta dhamma. Regarding paramattha dhamma, we have touched all areas citta area, cetasika area, rupa area and nibbana area. Currently we are dealing with each cetasika and which cittas they can arise with. This is a bit odd. But learning so will help us more understanding of cetasikas. After that Dhamma Thread will move back to citta again as citta is the king, it is the leader and it is the basis for all nama dhamma and as we all can observe ourselves on our own cittas. So far 7 universal mental factors or 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas or 7 permanent ministers of the king citta and 5 of 6 particular mental factors or 5 of 6 pakinnaka cetasikas or 5 of 6 flexible ministers of the king cittas have been discussed to some detail. Among 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, we left one more cetasika in this group of flexible ministers of the king citta. It is chanda cetasika. When we were discussing on cetasika, we have talked on chanda in comparison with lobha cetasika. Now to have a more clearer view, let us have a look at chanda cetasika and where it can arise. Chanda cetasika or wish or will is not a universal cetasika. So it does not arise with each and every citta. There are 89 cittas in total. There are 2 moha mula cittas called vicikiccha citta and uddhacca citta. Chanda cetasika does not arise in both of these two moha mula cittas. There is no way to arise 'wish' to spread out mind wandering here and there. By the same token, when in doubt there is no chanda or wish at all. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas, and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. In these 18 cittas, chanda cetasika does not arise with them. So chanda cetasika cannot arise in 18 ahetuka cittas and 2 moha mula cittas. Out of 89 cittas 18 + 2 = 20 cittas are removed and chnada can arise only in ( 89 - 20 = 69 ) 69 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38513 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:22am Subject: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dear venerable Vimalaramsi, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > I wouldn't go so far to say directly that Mahasi Sayadaw's method is > wrong. But I would say that the end results are not the same as the sutta > descriptions. In the book "The Progress of Insight" It says about the > experience of "Nibbana" is this : "So, through knowledge of equanimity > about formations, which is endowed with many virtues, blessings, and > powers, he notices the formations as they occur. When this knowledge is > mature, having become keen, strong, and lucid, on reaching its > culmination point, it will understand any of the formations as being > impermanent or painful or without self, just by seeing their dissolution. > Now that act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three, which > is still more lucid in its perfect understanding, manifests itself two or > three times or more in rapid succession. This is called 'Insight leading > to emergence'." ======== Dear Venerable Vimalaramsi, I think this section and most of the book by the venerable are parapharases of the last section of the Visuddhimagga - but with a few of his own ideas. I understand what he means by the above (becuase I can read the full version in the Viusddhimagga). However some of the book seems to be trying to align unusual experiences from concentration with the descriptions ofinsight in the Visuddhimagga. =============== The Mahasi method says that the meditator sees one of the > three characteristics arising rapidly for three times in a row or more > then Nibbana arises. And the sutta says that ones sees and understands > the cessation of the links of dependent origination and Nibbana occurs > with that deep understanding of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent > Origination. This is a very different end result, don't you think? > By doing the practice of the sutta instructions the meditator sees and > experiences D.O. many many times and when the letting go of craving > occurs the cessation of D.O. arises. According to many teachers the one > link in D.O. that can be let go of is the Craving and this breaks the > wheel of birth and death. This is why the second Noble Truth or the cause > of suffering is Craving is so important to see and deeply understand. > This is why I stress the letting go of the tensions and tightnesses in > both the body and mind, when they arise. To me this is the key to finally > experiencing Nibbana. =============== I understand your your disatisfaction with the Mahasi method. However, I think Dhamma is exceedingly deep and to consider letting go of tension in the body as being evidence of insight into Paticcasamuppada is understimating what insight is. =========== > You said: ROBERT:"Venerable Sariputta attained arahatship while he was fanning > the > Buddha and listening to the Buddha give a Dhamma talk to another monk. > He was rapidly entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels > while listening to the Buddha. This is because he was Sariputta and > his parami meant this was possible. Today is not the time where > beings can equal this. " ======= > Bhante* > And does this mean that he didn't have a meditation practice at all? > Insights can come to anyone at any time. Why do you think that Venerable > Sariputta was entering and exiting real jhanas at different levels while > listening to the Buddha talk? And if this was the case and he was > practicing the absorption method of meditation would he have been able to > hear what the Buddha said? According to the absorption method of jhana, > Venerable Sariputta's mind would have been so absorbed on the object of > meditation that he wouldn't have heard anything at all. == Right, he was skilled in both jhana and vipassana. Posture is irrelevant to vipassana - it can occur anytime- while fanning or being fanned, sitting or walking. It is true that for some?@samatha development, and especially for anapanasati, sitting posture is needed. BUT saripuatta had mastery of jhana, he was one who could enter and exit in an instant. ================= Bhante; And another > question is why do you think that moving in and out of jhanas rapidly > can't be done today? ================== The texts are clear that such extraordinary beings can only exist close to the time of a Buddha. Thus he was in jhana very briefly and then out of jhana. No problem for sariputta to listen to the Buddha and develop insight and jhana together. For us of today I believe even to attain a moment of the first jhana (the real one) is very hard, we have to have accumulations and the right conditions. That is why insight alone is the way that should be stressed, it can be developed without jhana. RobertK 38514 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Htoo (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/19/04 7:08:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > ========================= > Forgive me, but I don't understand your question, Htoo. > > With metta, > Howard > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Howard, > > Sarah has answered my question satisfactorily. I was thinking the > difference between you and Sarah. When one was confused, another has > already answered the question. This may be because of 'sanna' > and 'pannatti'. :-) > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't answer the question, because I didn't understand what it was. If it was where, among the factors of D.O., is to be found a self, then, of course, the answer is nowhere. But this is not a big surprise. So I still don't get your point. One *does* find within these factors the basis or genesis of the belief in self and of the sense of self. ---------------------------------------- > > You do know Bhara Sutta. There is a bulk. There is the bulk carrier. > There is the way to throw away the bulk. Who carries 'the bulk'? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know the sutta. It is not a favorite of mine, as the formulation it uses with regard to "the carrier of the burden" suggests an entity called a "person". This sutta was no doubt an influence on the heretical personalists. It is an odd sutta in that respect, quite different from others. ---------------------------------------- > > The answer is no one is carrying. > -------------------------------------- Howard: That is the answer of the Dhamma in general, but it is *not* the answer provided by this strange sutta. What is said is the following: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. "And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden. "And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------- This implies the same principle.> > > I was just inviting comments from D.O experts. > > Sarah said there is no 'I' in D.O. > > Yes. This is very true. But I was trying to indirectly see D.O. :-) > > Direct seeing of D.O is the matter of Ariyas. :-) > > I will be looking forward to hearing from you. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38515 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: Need help here :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: Hi Lee You have to ask Dr Mehm Tin where do he get the information that the seventh javana is the strongest because of the accumulative effect of the past javana. RobM and Sarah has provided materials from Visud and also Commentary to the Abhidhamma Sangaha. Material from Dispeller of Delusion (commentary to Vibhanga) also states the same way as said in Visud and Abhidhamma Sangaha. I will check Vibhanga next time as I have no time right now :) In most cases, the first javana and the seven javana can have lapse kamma while those on the five javana will definitely see fruits of the kamma. Hence we cannot assume that seven javana is stronger than the five javana. Another issue aside, in fact the kamma arise from the second javana onwards could determine the kamma for a 100,000 aeons (I remember I read it somewhere, maybe I have misread it :) ) this is how strong a javana process is. Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Lee, Ken O and All, The first javana citta is the weakest and this is followed by the 7th javana citta. They are so weak that they do not give rise to effect in the 3rd life onward. That is the first has to give rise to in this very life and if there is no result then its effects are used up. 7th javana citta gives rise to its effects in the second life and if there is no result then it dries up. The middle 5 javana cittas are very strong that they follow us like our own shade all the time and when there are conditions then they give rise to their effects. As they are accumulated, they have to start to give rise their effects start from the third life. That is no effect in this life and next life but there aftere until reaching nibbana. Even arahats have to accept the results of these middle 5 javana cittas until their khandha parinibbana. The citta that preceeds javana citta is manodvara avajjana citta in both of pancadvara vithi vara and manodvara vithi vara. Then the first javana citta comes. The function changes. In case of pancadvara vithi, manodvara avajjana citta does determining job. Next function is impulse and it is like running of a man. When he starts to run, his speed is weak. So the 1st javana citta is the weakest. When there is no more course to run as javana cittas, then the man has to stop his running and then the 7th javana citta becomes weaker than former 5 javana cittas. The middle 5 javana cittas are like a car in 5th or 6th gear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38516 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 10:05:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic ... > ========================= The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38517 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: >> > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic - only in the context of him > expressing speculative personal opinions (attanomati) about Aacariya > Buddhaghosa. Only in that light, I advised Joop and his like-minded > people to see those opinions as they are. And not to accept them as > if scientific facts! Hallo Suan Of course:there are no facts. There are only theories. Joop 38518 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:16am Subject: Differences between human beings and animals Hallo to all Human beings and animals are respectively inhabitants of plane nr 5 and plane nr 2 of the 31 planes of existence (The numer of 31 is not important to me: numers are just concepts). They have common that they both are living in a visible (hearable, smellable, tasteable and tangible) way in the planet Earth. Three questions are occupying me: (1) What are the differences between animals and human beings according to the Dhamma ? (2) What are the differences according modern science ? (3) Is the evolutionary theory (aka Darwinism) compatible with (Theravada-)Buddhism ? Ad 1 Peter Harvey states: "It is mostly at the human level that good and bad actions are performed. … Animals, … have little freedom for intentional good or bad actions, though the higher animals can sometimes act virtouously, if not in a self-consciously moral way. Beings in the lower ribirth generally just reap the results of previous bad actions. When these results come to an end, the results of some previous good actions will come to fruition and buoy up to the being to some better form of life, sooner or later reaching the human level again." (An introduction to buddhism, page 41) The Index of the The Visuddhi Magga mentions only three quotes with the term 'animal (generation)' in it: XIII 93: "For the animal generation is a state of loss because it is removed from the happy destiny; but it is not an unhappy destiny because it allows the existence of Royal Nagas (serpents), who are greatly honored." XIV 207: "Then according to lo0cation, painfull feelings in hell are gross, while in the animal generation they are subtle." XVII 154: "… in the remaining three kind of destiny, in other words among animals, ghost and human beings, … there are all four kinds of generation." MORE EXACT THE QUESTION IS: WHICH OF THE 89 CITTA'S, THE 52 CETASIKA'S AND THE 28 RUPA'S DO APPLY TO ANIMALS? And why ? (Maybe with a difference between 'womb-born' and 'egg-born' animals) The Abhidhammattha Sangaha is also very short about this topic. Only about 'experienced material qualities' (rupa) it states in VI $29: "in the sense planes, twenty-eight material phenomena are found; in the fine-material planes twenty-three …(etc)" Sujin Boriharnwanaket says in 'Realities and concepts': "When we have studied the Dhamma and considered it, we shall see that the cittas of all beings which arise in daily life have sometimes a paramattha dhamma and sometimes a concept as object. …. If we did not know concepts how could we lead our daily life? If one wouldn't know what the different things are, such as a table, a chair, food, a bowl, a plate or a spoon, one could not lead one's daily life. Also animals must have concepts as objects, otherwise they could not stay alive. They must know what is food and what is not food. " Ad 2 The most important physical difference between human beings (homo sapiens) and animals is the relative big volume of the brains. And it's the human brain that made it possible to use symbols (language) and memory in the form of synbols, intellectual activities (thinking, reflecting, making moral decisions) and telling stories. I have never read about it but I think animals can not practise a meditational (neither samatha nor vipassana) way of reflection. Ad 3 Is the evolutionary theory (aka Darwinism) compatible with (Theravada- )Buddhism ? (For me two aspects of that theory are important: the principle of natural selection and the hypothesis that some hundred thousand till some million years ago the first human being appeared out of a being we define as an animal.) I don't have a objective really answer to that question, but for me a fact is that: - I think evolutionary theory is till now the best theory of the origin of the species we have - ànd I know buddhism is true. When I say in this place 'buddhism' I don't mean all the subtleties of Abhidhamma and commentaries but the three dukkha, anatta and anicca. Of course the theory is not hundred percent compatible with the Sutta's of one takes all this saying of the Buddha literal. To me (just like modern Christians say part of the Bible, especially the book Genesis) can be taken metaphorically and not literally) it is not necessary to do so and still be a buddhist. We can take the stories metaphorically, or more exact: soteriologically. And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries are not incompatible or even comtpatible. I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: the Buddha has not said anything like this, was silent about it. Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. But that reactions are to easy: I like the idea of the two truths but there must be a kind of connection between the two truths. With metta Joop 38519 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need help here :) Hi Htoo Where do you get this information. I am trying high and low looking for it. Ken O 38520 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:30am Subject: Thanks for help given :) Hi, all! Thank you Nina, Sarah, RobM, KenO and all for the references. I have ask Dr. Mehm Tin Mon and he said he still think that the seventh javana needs to be the strongest in order to produce vipaka in the immediate rebirth. I know I can suggest to him that the first javana should be the strongest as it can bring immediate vipaka in this life but somehow at that moment, I was not that skilful in conveying the idea as it will seem like a challenge to him, so I just stop there. I will compile all the references provided and discuss with Dr. Mehm before end of the course. Thank you very much. With regards, Lee 38521 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, Thank you for your response. I had a brief off-list correspondence with one of your students KK, a little while back. In that I had told her that I did not wish to compare our views on Triplegem, one reason being that my impression was that our views were too far apart, hence any discussion would most likely be fruitless and probably even arouse much akusala in me. For this same reason and more, I would therefore ask to be excused from this discussion with you. I expect that you will understand this. With regard to your question about `panna', I realize that you have asked Sarah a similar question, which in any case she will be able to explain much better than I could. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Howard and Sukin, > Now to Sukin; > Please if you will indulge me for a moment. What does Pan~n~a mean? This > definition is needed so I can understand what you are talking about. When > you said: "If we are truthful to our own level of understanding, we > might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. This is taught to us > when the Buddha expounded the many different discourses on Dependent > Origination and through direct practice we can see that we really do know > exactly. This is not some form of philosophical debate or intellectual > exercise, but can be verified personally when one takes the time and > effort to do the practice of meditation in the way described in the > suttas. > 38522 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Joops > And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > are not incompatible or even comtpatible. k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not contain what are u trying to express. I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: the Buddha has not said anything like this, was silent about it. k: What is Buddha silent about? Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. But that reactions are to easy: I like the idea of the two truths but there must be a kind of connection between the two truths. k: What two truths are you mentioning about? Ken o 38523 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, I'll respond to just this post and leave out the others. > > --------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > There are many ways that citta, cetasikas and rupa condition each other > > and individually. How exactly these are conditioned at any given moment only panna can know. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Nice pure theory, Sukin. Every timer I read "Only pa~n~na can know," I > understand this to be a declaration of hopelessness. It's much like sentences > of the form "God will provide" and "Only God can say". +Sukin: You have come to this conclusion and expressed it before. I believe this is due to the difference in our experience of the Teachings. You're not having seen it this way, be it through theory, reflection or even satipatthana; it appears to you that such reference to panna is only an abstraction. But this is not my experience when I make such statements. When I say that `only panna can know' I believe that moment, there is some understanding of the nature and characteristic of panna, though perhaps only intellectually. In other words, only panna can say anything meaningful about panna. God on the other hand is an `idea' and can only be an object of wrong view. This wrong view implies a `self' here and `other' there existing permanently, where the former is somehow controlled by the latter. This is no where close to what panna is from the Abhidhamma perspective. No one is waiting for Panna's grace here, as others do in relation to God. There is no hopelessness because the question of hope does not arise, both being centered on `self'. It seems only when there is a `self' who does this to get that, does the problem of hope and hopelessness come in. > ------------------------------------------- > Sukin: If we are truthful to our own level of > > > understanding, we might admit that we `don't really know exactly'. The > > best attitude would be to study the texts, and even then, if one observes > > in experience what the texts say, we should know that it is > > just `thinking'. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Unless one looks for oneself, looks directly, one will never know. One > will be nothing but a memorizer. +Sukin: But what if one perceives lobha and wrong view with whatever clarity, arising in the moment? And what if this is indeed panna; would the accompanying sanna really be bad? ;-) > -------------------------------------------- > > > Sukin: And do the texts say about such things as `bodily tension' and `mental > > constriction'? Is this not a kind of observation no different from, for > > example, psychology and medicine? > > And what is this, > > "Letting go of one tends to let go of the other, and most especially, the > > body door is a relatively easily accessible doorway to the mind". > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would suggest looking, Sukin, instead of not looking and just saying "no". +Sukin: There is Howard looking, Sukin looking, lobha looking, avijja looking and there is panna looking. All these arise by conditions beyond control, however in principle; wouldn't you agree that only the last would ever be useful? If we can't make this arise, wouldn't the next best thing be that we don't encourage the others because otherwise we would be moving even more away from the correct path? > ---------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: Who observes what!! Neither any `mind' lasts long enough to observe > > nor does any `body' and subsequently any relationship except > > by "thinking"! Does not this kind of observation encouraging of "atta > > view"? > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. You are just playing mind games and word games, and are avoiding > direct investigation. +Sukin: When I had my brief experience with the Goenka method, I did make the observation about `tightness' at different parts of my body, esp. the forehead area. I did not make any conclusion about this except that the mind did effect the body but also thought that I was probably more `tense' than most people. I however did not see this as any great revelation, perhaps because I did not associate this with any particular aspect of the Buddha's teachings. Besides each time I looked, I always found some sensations after sensations, so I did not then think further about it. I believe also that plain curiosity was enough to reveal such things and not any wisdom was involved. But after I was introduced to the Abhidhamma perspective and trying the same thing again , it appeared to me that lobha was the cause of the pleasant feeling immediately following such awareness of tenseness and that to make a conclusion about the phenomena without taking into consideration what actually happens on the paramattha level, is an exercise in wrong view. After all, knowing that there is pain in the foot is already `thinking', sense of location in body being a concept. Thinking forehead and tightness of mind and consequent idea of letting go, does not seem to be the kind of knowledge and understanding which Buddha meant to get across to us. Nor can it be the basis of further investigation about conditional relations except by `thinking'. This is one reason why it is crucial to distinguish between reality and concept from the very beginning. And knowing this much, what do you think my attitude towards so called, `direct investigation' would be? I hope you now understand the reason for any reluctance. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Sukin: This is why it is very important to know about satipatthana and the > > objects which it can take. Otherwise we will indulge in practices which > > only encourage atta sanna. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Satipatthana is not something to "know about". So long as you only > "know about" it, and do not engage in it, you are merely playing concept games. +Sukin: Again, "who engages"? And this is not `playing concept games', Howard. Perhaps you need to think more deeply about this. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Sukin: And this business about `calm' as being a necessary factor for > > understanding is I believe and error in`thinking'. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is hilarious. Just read what the suttas have to say about > calm and equanimity. They are *necessary*. Sukin: When I am questioning this concept of `calm' I am doing it for the same reason that I question `cetana'. We know that all kusala cittas are also `calm'. The way most people take calm to be is such that, instead of seeing it as co-arising and conditioned by various other factors particularly in this case panna, is seen as "pre-condition" which leads to it. And associated with this is the idea of various practices, including anapanasati, as supposedly leading to this end. Calm being a characteristic of all kusala including those with panna; it seems like an error in reasoning to think that one must practice calm separately first or side by side. In fact in some cases this proliferates into the idea that calm is more important than anything else. Panna being the forerunner every step of the way as far as following the Buddha's teachings, I think it important to not just "follow" any ideas, whether this is from some revered monk or one's own, which suggests a `self' doing something. Panna in my opinion, can take any and every reality as object and it *must* be without any idea of choice. It is panna which is the occasional island in the sea of avijja and tanha, not `an hour of sitting practice' or any "cetana" to do so. I think it is very important to see the Teachings as descriptive rather than prescriptive. The `self' is ever ready to pounce upon any suggestion of prescription, and even when it is not there it will see it as one. Detachment is the goal every step of the way, yet most cling to their practices. And because of the general ignorance, I have seen more disagreement than otherwise between so called `meditators'. In fact the only thing they seem to agree upon is the need to follow this ritual called `formal sitting'. This seems to me to go against the Buddha, and reducing his Teachings to being only little better than other religions, when in fact in my opinion, is the *only* correct teachings. I assume that you and many others will not like what I am saying, but it seems some of us on DSG who are often accused of being `theoretical' are in fact more practical than most. We are labeled as `non-meditators' yet because we don't distinguish between time for practice and otherwise, and though there may be very few moments of any real understanding, in principle we should be called full-time meditators. :-) > ------------------------------------------------ > Sukin: Here too there seem to > be a misunderstanding of what the object of panna of the level of > > satipatthana is and how it is developed. Panna of a higher level is > > conditioned by that of the lower levels via sankhara. Calm has no role in > > this development and to think that it does, seems to me to condition > > again, wrong practice of one kind or the other. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Utter nonsense. This sis some sort of philopsophy, but not Dhamma. Sukin: And yet if someone were to spin out elaborate theories in the name of Buddhadhamma which happen to click with your own understanding, you may not make this same judgement about it. And then perhaps I would.....!? :-/ > ----------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukin 38524 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi Sukin Just answer this in one short word Panna = anatta :) The I remember I read that someone wrote that satipatthana is only about mindfulness. I think we should read it in DN-22 where Buddha mentions 4NT as part of satipatthana suttas :). So satipatthana is more than meets the eye :). Cheers Ken O 38525 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and its 12 links On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:24:46 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo:> I am waiting for the answer. I am not going into further dark. > > Hugo wrote: I don't understand the above phrase. > > Do you mean that you don't want to investigate until somebody tells > you "THE" Answer? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I can see you have a good command in Dhamma as well as mental power. I can't see how you infer that from my question, but I liked the phrase. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hugo: > > On the other hand, how can the D.O. be (seen, experienced, noted, > discerned, realized)?, that is possible to answer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course. Good, so I guess your question is answered isn't it? -- Hugo 38526 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hello all, On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:00:49 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > the D.O am I? > .... > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) I didn't read Sarah's reply before my reply to the different thread Htoo started from my reply about the lights. But given the fact that I answered basically the same, do I also get extra bonus "Sadhu" ? I promise, my reply was original, and I didn't peek into Sarah's notebook. :-) By the way Htoo, if Sarah had already replied correctly why did you started the other thread? -- Hugo 38527 From: antony272b2 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I wrote: > >My only > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The critical > > Pali > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > *deserves* > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be found) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38222 S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be found)? A: Is this your translation of the Pali? Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your > love and affection.' > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > Happiness." ......... A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). This annoyed me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. See "Paticcasamuppada" which I scanned in for BuddhaNet in 1995: http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip Mahasi Sayadaw was a highly regarded scholar as well as a meditation master. I think he was the questioner at the Great Buddhist Council in the 50's. ........ Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three lifetimes)). He wrote: "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." The Buddha here is not referring to that concept of positive self- esteem which is such a common theme of contemporary Western psychology, but to the bedrock self-referentiality of the self. This is *not* a teaching about assessing oneself as "worthy," worthy of loving-kindness or of anything else. "Worthy" and "unworthy" are episodes in our personal narratives, both of them based on our obsessive self-referentiality, and each is the mirror image of the other. If we identify with one, sooner or later we will identify with the other, and both are false because all identifications are false. For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of self-hatred and unworthiness." From Dharmavision newsletter Sydney Australia 2002 ==== A: I think this is a good treatment of the position common to dsg members. I agree with you about attachment to self (the theory anyway - I am "in it" so to speak so I don't have much perspective on the attachment to self). My quote from MN 2 a while back seems pertinent: "inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. I didn't hear Patrick's voice here but I didn't like the tone of "*not*...worthy...of anything else" ....... S: the brahma viharas are for other beings. ....... A: Here is an adapted translation of the last section of the Sankha Sutta (my favorite sutta in the Pali Canon). I have used Bhikkhu Bodhi's "and to all as to himself" rather than Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "in its entirety". "and to all as to himself" I think is more profound and agrees with "my" views ;) "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, and to all as to himself, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forgivenessBuddhism/message/17 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html Samyutta Nikaya 42:8, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications http://www.wisdompubs.org ....... S: Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to continue the > thread. > > Metta, > > Sarah ... A: Thanks Sarah - it was well worth the wait - I know you are busy so thanks for your comprehensive reply. May you be well and happy, Antony. 38528 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Need help here :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Where do you get this information. I am trying high and low looking > for it. > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken O, This is digested material. It may be in VM. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38529 From: antony272b2 Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Sarah, Any extra point: Using logic (which isn't always good Dhamma), as the Buddha said that "one who loves himself does not harm another", whether or not one *deserves* love and affection for oneself, does it follow that one who *doesn't* love himself *is* harming others? Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. > > I wrote: > > >My only > > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The > critical > > > Pali > > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > > *deserves* > > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be > found) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38222 > > S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be > found)? > > A: Is this your translation of the Pali? > > Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: > > According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and > affection > > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found > anywhere. > > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve > your > > love and affection.' > > > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > > Happiness." > ......... > A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried > away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote > was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference > to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). This annoyed > me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. > Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw > as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always > very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. > See "Paticcasamuppada" which I scanned in for BuddhaNet in 1995: > http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/therabud/mahasipt.zip > Mahasi Sayadaw was a highly regarded scholar as well as a meditation > master. I think he was the questioner at the Great Buddhist Council > in the 50's. > ........ > Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by > Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three > lifetimes)). He wrote: > > "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the > above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both > Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: > > "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves > more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - > Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." > > The Buddha here is not referring to that concept of positive self- > esteem which is such a common theme of contemporary Western > psychology, but to the bedrock self-referentiality of the self. This > is *not* a teaching about assessing oneself as "worthy," worthy of > loving-kindness or of anything else. "Worthy" and "unworthy" are > episodes in our personal narratives, both of them based on our > obsessive self-referentiality, and each is the mirror image of the > other. If we identify with one, sooner or later we will identify with > the other, and both are false because all identifications are false. > > For the Buddha, letting go of the self *is* letting go of self- hatred > and unworthiness." From Dharmavision newsletter Sydney Australia 2002 > ==== > A: > I think this is a good treatment of the position common to dsg > members. > I agree with you about attachment to self (the theory anyway - I > am "in it" so to speak so I don't have much perspective on the > attachment to self). My quote from MN 2 a while back seems > pertinent: "inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am > I not? What am I? How am I?'" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html > > A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. I > didn't hear Patrick's voice here but I didn't like the tone > of "*not*...worthy...of anything else" > ....... > S: the brahma viharas are for other beings. > ....... > A: Here is an adapted translation of the last section of the Sankha > Sutta (my favorite sutta in the Pali Canon). I have used Bhikkhu > Bodhi's "and to all as to himself" rather than Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's "in its entirety". "and to all as to himself" I think is > more profound and agrees with "my" views ;) > > "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of > covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- > keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness > imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, > likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus > above, below, & all around, everywhere, and to all as to himself, he > keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued > with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, abundant, > expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as > a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without > any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through > good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity is thus > developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer > remains there, no longer stays there." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/forgivenessBuddhism/message/17 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-008.html > Samyutta Nikaya 42:8, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom Publications > http://www.wisdompubs.org > ....... > S: Please let me know your comments here, Antony. I'd be glad to > continue the > > thread. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > ... > A: Thanks Sarah - it was well worth the wait - I know you are busy so > thanks for your comprehensive reply. > > May you be well and happy, > > Antony. 38530 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > Hello all, > > On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:00:49 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo, > > > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > > I am sitting now. I am seeing light and colour now. When exactly in > > > the D.O am I? > > .... > > S: No 'I' in D.O.;-) > > I didn't read Sarah's reply before my reply to the different thread > Htoo started from my reply about the lights. > > But given the fact that I answered basically the same, do I also get > extra bonus "Sadhu" ? > > I promise, my reply was original, and I didn't peek into Sarah's notebook. :-) > > > By the way Htoo, if Sarah had already replied correctly why did you > started the other thread? > > > -- > Hugo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hugo, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Plus extra bonus Sadhu! I believe that you did not peep in. Because I am waiting someone. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38531 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Dear Ken O, You write: > So are differentiating conceptual right view from mundane right view. > Or do you mean they are the same :). > > If they are different, then it is true that conceptual right view > cannot be path leading to insight. If they are the same, then > conceptual right view is the path leading to insight They are different. According to the Great Forty (MN 117) and the Sammaditthi sutta (MN 9) and their commentaries, "mundane right view" is the right view arising with insight, wisdom, satipatthana, direct awareness and is decidedly not the same as "conceptual right view." (Sarah may be able to explain this to you better than I because she has such a nice way with words, and I have so little time now.) I also agree that this implies that conceptual right view cannot be path leading to insight. Metta, Dan 38532 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, You are sneaky indeed! Writing a long, windy summary of what you think I think just at the moment when I am trying to close my participation in the thread. But how can I leave your misconceptions of my thinking unanswered? It is hard, but for the time being I must. A full response will be forthcoming, but it may be some time before I get back to it. I think some of the issues we discussed really get to the heart of Dhamma and discussion of them cannot be suppressed for long. You still have many misconceptions about my points, and I must take the blame for a good part of that, but the discussion has been fun. I'll get back to you later! Thanks. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Dan, > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > > I'm going to try to close this thread, so my comments will be very > > brief > … > S: It's been a very long thread and at times a bit of a roller- coaster > one, but I've enjoyed it and found it helpful in many ways. Thank you for > persevering. > > As we're looking at closure, I'll try to sum up the remaining points of > agreement/disagreement here: > > 1. We both agree the ti-lakkhana are characteristics of realities. You > think there can be awareness of Suffering (aka 1st Noble Truth) without > any prior understanding of namas and rupas. I think that without a clear > understanding of the latter and furthermore of the characteristics of the > arising and falling away of the latter, the inherent nature of dukkha > cannot be penetrated. There cannot be awareness of dukkha *apart from* the > reality which is known, just as there cannot be awareness of the nama > quality, rupa quality or impermanence *apart from* that reality. > > 2. We both agree that namas *and* rupas are dukkha. You say the latter are > dukkha because they are unsatisfactory as objects which is true. I would > further say they are inherently unsatisfactory because they are > impermanent. > > 3. We both agree that Sammaditthi of the fivefold or eightfold path and as > described in the Sammaditthi Sutta refers exclusively to panna which only > takes realities as objects. In other words, it refers to moments of > satipatthana (mundane sammaditthi) and lokuttara cittas (supramundane > sammaditthi). Furthermore, we both agree that thinking about concepts of > realities or any kind of conceptual knowledge is not the development of > satipatthana or patipatti (practice) and should not be confused with the > latter. Furthermore, we both agree that conceptual knowledge may not lead > to the latter. > > 4. Where we differ here is that you do not accept there can be > `conceptual right view' which is an essential precursor to the > development of satipatthana. You either do not accept that this conceptual > right view is pariyatti or you do not accept that pariyatti precedes > patipatti. You believe that only when there have been insights, including > vipassana nanas, can there be any wise conceptual consideration or > reflection. You do not accept that panna or sammaditthi can refer to > reflections on truths or realities as taught by the Buddha if they have > not been directly realized. You consider all such reflection to be a kind > of speculation which is always wrong, regardless of whether the words are > correct or the cittas are wholesome. Clearly my understanding is quite > different here. > > 5. You believe that those from other backgrounds who have never heard a > word about realities or the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha can have direct > insights and realize at least some of the vipassana nanas in this life, > even if they cannot become enlightened. I disagree. > > 6. You believe that one can have more of an idea of someone's real > understanding by observing their behaviour and actions over a long period > and ignoring what they say or what theory they have. I disagree. I think > it is primarily by their expression that we learn about their views. One > person may have temper outbursts but a good understanding or realities. > Another person may be very quiet and calm but have strong wrong views > about self and cling a lot to having a certain show of personality, or not > really be tested in this life. > *** > Finally, just a few more words on why I see this thread as being of > importance. > > 1. If we don't think we need to hear, consider and reflect a lot on the > teachings and have an idea that insights will arise regardless, it will be > a condition not to hear, consider and reflect. Even ariyans needed to > listen and reflect further. > > 2. If we judge by the behaviour of others or oneself, we will be lost > again in a `situation' of how we think insight should manifest, rather > than developing detachment from any reality regardless. > > 3. There is the likelihood that one will take apparent insights in others > or oneself for being vipassana nanas when in fact they may well just be > thinking about an idea of suffering, an idea of impermanence and so on. We > have to consider and reflect a lot to appreciate how much ignorance there > really is and how very little is known. > > 4. Only at the fourth stage of insight or vipassana nana is the > impermanence of realities clearly understood. Only then can dukkha really > be known. Before this, there has to be a clear understanding of the > distinction between namas and rupas, a clear direct knowledge of the > conditioned nature of these dhammas and a real understanding of khandhas. > If we really think we understand the deep meaning of dukkha now, it's > likely to be a real hindrance to the development of the path. > *** > Thank you again, Dan, for the stimulating discussion. You're most welcome > to take issue with any of these concluding comments, but I'll leave > anything further to others on the sidelines at this point as I know you've > heard more than enough from me. Thank you again for your patience. You're > a good friend in Dhamma. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 38533 From: Hugo Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:28:28 -0000, htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Hugo, > > Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Plus extra bonus Sadhu! I believe that you did not > peep in. Thanks. > Because I am waiting someone. mmmmm.....so then your question is directed towards somebody specific? If you state so beforehand we won't spoil it by giving the answer. -- Hugo 38534 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/19/04 11:50:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I'll respond to just this post and leave out the others. > ========================= In much the same vein as you wrote to Ven Vimalaramsi, although we two are both laypersons ;-), I think we are probably too far apart in our understanding on this matter to profitably continue the discussion. You have given your reply expressing your understanding, and inasmuch as my saying "No, it's not that way, it's another" and then our pretty much just going back & forth that way, I think I will let you have the "last word" on this. :-) With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38535 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Sarah, > --- ericlonline wrote: > > S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit > > grasping here? E> > I > ..... > S: And what is this 'I'? > ..... I mean I AM. You doubt your existence? E> > Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. > .... > S: You mean 'I' will quit grasping and then 'I AM' will dissolve? Will 'I' dissolve 'I AM' too?:-/ I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping at objects and all that is left is I AM, then can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! The illusion is finally seen thru. PEACE E 38536 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Robert, Now I am beginning to see where the questions you are asking are coming from, so I will try to respond in a deeper way. When you said: "However, I think Dhamma is exceedingly deep and to consider letting go of tension in the body as being evidence of insight into Paticcasamuppada is underestimating what insight is." Bhante* I think you are not really understanding what I am referring to. In the 'Chachakka Sutta" #148 in the Majjhima Nikaya (The Six Sets of Six) it gives a very clear and precise description of six of the links of Dependent origination that is very deep and detailed. And when one compares this with the sutta that I sent to you it agrees completely. Now if you were to take the Anapanasati Sutta (#118 of the Majjhima Nikaya) and look at the phrase " He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the bodily formations'; he trains thus, 'I shall breathe out experiencing the bodily formations; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the bodily formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formations', then go to section #19 it says; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formations' ; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the mental formations'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the mental formations'. Bhante* This is done for a very specific reason. Why? so mind will become tranquilized enough to have a clear understanding of "HOW" dependent origination arises and passes away and this is very deep and precise. Now if you will look at the instructions given by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw or the Visuddhi Magga, do you see these instructions given? If not then the practice is not the same as the above mentioned sutta and can not possibly lead to the same end results. Can you see this? Because the Buddha says in the sutta that I sent to you that if one doesn't see, understand and have insights into these links of dependent origination (as seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths) they will not experience Nibbana. And if the person does see, understand and have insights into these links of dependent origination (as seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths) they will experience Nibbana. I take that to mean that simply seeing the three characteristics is not enough and that the person has not experienced Nibbana when they do see these characteristics. Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! And the insight gained into the true nature of the links of dependent origination are the insights that do lead to Nibbana. These are truly the deepest insights a person can have. Venerable Sariputta became a sotapanna by just hearing in a general way about dependent origination. Doesn't that say something about the importance of these insights and their depth? Again I will ask where did you get the idea that Venerable Sariputta was going into and out of the jhanas while he was fanning the Buddha? I have never read that at all. I have read that the insights that he got while fanning the Buddha were that the Buddha wasn't even attached to the Dhamma and this was the insight that allowed Venerable Sariputta to let go and then he became an arahat. I have never read that Venerable Sariputta was experiencing the jhanas while this occurred. And of course, if it did happen this way, I have never heard of it, it may be somewhere in the suttas but I never ran across it. Could you please show me where this is found? Then you said: "he was skilled in both jhana and vipassana. Posture is irrelevant to vipassana - it can occur anytime- while fanning or being fanned, sitting or walking. It is true that for some?@samatha development, and especially for anapanasati, sitting posture is needed. BUT Sariputta had mastery of jhana, he was one who could enter and exit in an instant." Bhante* I keep running across this idea that samatha is one kind of practice and vipassana is another (which comes from the commentaries and the Visuddhi Magga) but it definitely does not agree with the suttas in Sutta # 149 of the Majjhima Nikaya in section #10 it says: "These two things -serenity (samatha) and insight (vipassana) are evenly yoked together" In the commentary MA it says: "that this refers to the simultaneous arising of samatha and vipassana. The samatha is under the heading of right concentration (which I would like to change to collectedness because the word concentration has too many different meanings that can be confusing) and vipassana is under the heading of Right understanding. Doesn't this mean that both tranquility and insight can arise at the same time? And why do you think that one has to be sitting in meditation when practicing Anapanasati meditation? Remember, the instructions for Satipatthana and Anapanasati are exactly the same. Also, if you take a good look at the Anapanasati Sutta you will find that the "4 Foundations of Mindfulness" are found in this sutta Too. There is no real difference between these two suttas. One stresses the practice of meditation and the other stresses the uses of mindfulness more but they do refer to the same practice. So why is one good for fanning and the other is only good when sitting in meditation? You said: "That is why insight alone is the way that should be stressed, it can be developed without jhana." Bhante* But I still go back to why did the Buddha spend so much time and effort teaching the path of the jhanas if they weren't important. Also, why is the word Vipassana only used roughly 100 times in the suttas and the jhanas are mentioned many thousands of times? Please read the enter sutta # 111 the "Anupada Sutta", if you don't have a copy of this book you can go to the website at www.dhammasukha.org and you will find it there also, there is a recording of a talk that I gave on this sutta that you may find interesting if you want to listen to it) -Venerable Sariputta's meditation experience and show me where it mentions the word vipassana or because he was considered a "dry Arahat" when did he practice only straight vipassana. I would be very interested to know this. If as you have said from this sutta Venerable Sariputta did "only" practice vipassana in order to attain arahatship, why did he spend so much effort in going through the jhanas? Don't you think then that the jhanas are useful and a practical way to reach Nibbana? Venerable Sariputta did see and understand the three characteristics of existence while he was in each of the jhanas, and he had insights into their nature while he was in the jhanas. But he took the deep understanding of HOW dependent origination works with him into his daily activities, and this was the reason that he attain arahatship while fanning the Buddha. He had just one minor attachment that needed to be seen and let go of. So when he gained the insight that the Buddha didn't have any attachments even to the Dhamma, that was a piece of the puzzle that help things fall into place. It was the deep understanding that any attachments to anything, even a wholesome thing like the Dhamma, stopped him from the final goal. I hope that this has helped to clear things up for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38537 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Greetings Sukin, It is too bad that you feel this way it robs both of us from a deeper understanding. Metta, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38538 From: Charles Thompson Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Good friend Bhante Vimalaramasi, Htoo, et al Please forgive my jumping in. If this message is improper; please, delete it. Bhante Vimalaramasi, you wrote Bhikkhu Bodhi was in New Jersey. Two questions, if I may: 1. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi well; and, 2. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi in Great Britain or USA? Thank you, sincerely. metta (maitri), Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhante Vimalaramsi To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Dhamma Greetings Htoo, I must regretfully decline this request. Because I am not that educated in the Pali language. If you are really interested in this project you could ask Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Bodhi monastery in New Jersey. If he would be willing to take the time and effort I would be very happy to add what little I know. Sorry. Being in a very remote area of the country I don't have the access to the many books I would need to do this project. I have lots of problems even getting the Pali-English dictionaries. I have friends in Malaysia who have promised to get me as many Pali-English dictionaries as possible but I haven't received any yet. So it goes. I wish I could do this project for you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38539 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:22pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I don't wish to argue what you have to say about tranquility, because I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I do have some doubts about the authenticity of the Anupada Sutta. The Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta attained enlightenment during a "fortnight" of uninterrupted meditation and that he attained enlightenment while in the fourth immaterial jhana.* However, other Buddhist documents, and suttas, point to the fact that Sariputta attained enlightenment while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse. Also, the sutta states that Sariputta was mindful of contact and feelings while in the immaterial jhanas when that could not be possible. The Buddha has explained in many suttas that the immaterial jhanas take a single sphere as the object of concentration. One could not be in the jhana of the Sphere of Nothingness, for example, and also be noting physical sensations. It doesn't make much sense to me and doesn't correspond with how the Buddha describes the jhanas in many other suttas. What do you make of this? Metta, James *2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: `So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: `There is no escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that, he confirmed that there is not. 38540 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Hello Chuck, all, Bhikkhu Bodhi is at The Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 The website (includes contact details): http://www.bodhimonastery.net/main.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Thompson" wrote: > Good friend Bhante Vimalaramasi, Htoo, et al > > Please forgive my jumping in. If this message is improper; please, delete it. > > Bhante Vimalaramasi, you wrote Bhikkhu Bodhi was in New Jersey. > > Two questions, if I may: > > 1. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi well; and, > > 2. Is Bhikkhu Bodhi in Great Britain or USA? > > Thank you, sincerely. > > metta (maitri), > > Chuck 38541 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it. Will get back on whether Visud and the sutta talking about the same thing. BV: Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characterisitcs that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characterisitcs. Ken O 38541 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it. Will get back on whether Visud and the sutta talking about the same thing. BV: Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characterisitcs that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characterisitcs. Ken O 38542 From: Charles Thompson Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Good friend Christine, et al a very warm thank you for your rapid reply. Hmmm, I must change my local plans... I am in the Philadelphia, PA USA (USA east coast) area preparing to fly, December 5, to Thailand for 3 or 4 months. New Jersey is just next door... Thank you again. metta (maitri), Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 6:34 PM Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard./ Chuck. Hello Chuck, all, Bhikkhu Bodhi is at The Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 The website (includes contact details): http://www.bodhimonastery.net/main.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that ...rest deleted by Chuck 38543 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard Dear Howard, and all How are you? Howard wrote: "The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you!" You are spot-on! They are no different from mercenaries, only the battle fields. The ideological battle field and the blood-and-near- death guns-and-bullets battle field! However, it is not that I dislike them. I merely wanted to expose the state of the affairs in the academic world. They have to say what they are paid to say. That is a fact of life in the world of market forces. Glad to hear from you, Howard. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 10:05:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Now, to recap, I mentioned those things like Prof Kalupahana being a > Sanskritist and a paid-academic ... > ========================= The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38544 From: Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/19/04 8:43:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, and all > > How are you? > > Howard wrote: > > "The term 'paid-academic' has the ring of a soldier of fortune, a > mercenary, or a "hired gun"! Wow, you really dislike them, don't > you!" > > You are spot-on! They are no different from mercenaries, only the > battle fields. The ideological battle field and the blood-and-near- > death guns-and-bullets battle field! > > However, it is not that I dislike them. I merely wanted to expose > the state of the affairs in the academic world. They have to say > what they are paid to say. That is a fact of life in the world of > market forces. > > Glad to hear from you, Howard. --------------------------------------- Howard: It's always good to talk with you too. :-) -------------------------------------- > > With regards, > > Suan > ====================== Just for the record, Suan - I do presume you know what line of work I've been in for the past 32-33 years? I've been a college professor! ;-)) For two years prior to that I was a college instructor, giving me a total of 34-35 years of being that most dreadful of monsters, an academic! ;-)) [It happens that I'm on leave this semester, and then I am retiring.] Over the years I've known academics of all sorts - some whom I've admired and others rather much the opposite. I've never found it possible to paint them all with the same brush. They vary from division to division, within a division - from discipline to discipline, and within a discipline - from person to person. I've known brilliant researchers in the sciences who are as humble as one could ever hope for. I've known brilliant, well published mathematicians and philosophers, and folks in the humanities who are equally humble and kind. I've also known others who are egomaniacs, selfish, and, most especially, pompous. In my experience, typically the administrators are the worst - but there are striking exceptions there as well. There are all types, Suan. They are certainly not to be condemned across the board. Evidently, you have personally met up with a really "bad bunch"! I'm sorry for that. Were they in Buddhist studies? I often tell my wife that I am so grateful for not working in that area, because that would probably remove much of the joy in the Dhamma that I have. There certainly are some wonderful and sincere Buddhists in the academic world - but theirs is not an easy road it seems to me, not so much because of "market forces", but because many fellow academics in Buddhist Studies, in my opinion, simply take the life out of the Dhamma by taking an approach that is dry, pedantic, and emphasizing of inessentials. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38545 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I am not bothered or upset that you question me on anything that I may say, so please don't feel like you are showing any disrespect. I am most interested in helping in any way that I can. As a matter of fact the way I teach a retreat is by asking questions for the meditators to bring up their doubts so they can be let go of. So with that said, actually Venerable Sariputta didn't realize nibbana until after he had the experience of the cessation of perception and feeling, not the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Now we get into something that is not discussed very much, about the Path and Fruition or magga and phala in Pali (Actually I am writing a book currently about how this occurs according to the suttas. It is quite different from the standard approach that is being taught today). In the Kitagiri Sutta # 70 in the Majjhima Nikaya it states somethings about how the Path and Fruition (magga - phala) are experienced. When one becomes a sotapanna (that is one who has the experience of magga without the experience of phala [fruition]) they are either called a 'Faith- striver' a 'Dhamma-striver' (this depends on the way they gained their understanding of Dhamma) Both of these types of persons have experienced the initial experience of Nibbana (magga), but they have not experienced the Fruition (Phala) of that experience. Venerable Ananda was a 'Dhamma-striver" for more than 20 years before he actually did experience the fruition of that attainment. When he finally did have the fruition (phala) occur he when to the Buddha (as it says in the Digha Nikaya #15 - "The Mahaanidaana Sutta - The Great Discourse on Origination". In this sutta Venerable Ananda told the Buddha that understanding dependent origination was very easy. (because being a Dhamma-Striver he was very interested in dependent origination and this is the way that a Dhamma-Striver attains the fruition [phala]) {I will provide the sutta information about this in a later post}. But the Buddha scolded Venerable Ananda saying that this in fact is not easy to understand and it takes a Buddha to teach it in such a way that it is understandable. Anyway, getting back to the Kitigiri Sutta, there is a: 1] Sotapanna without the experience of the Path (magga) and a Sotapanna who has the experience of the Path and Fruition (magga and phala) 2] Sakadagami with the experience of the Path (magga), and a Sakadagami with experience of both the Path and Fruition (magga-phala) 3] Anagami with the experience of the Path (magga), and the Anagami with both the Path and Fruition (magga- phala) 4] An Arahat with the experience of the Path (magga), and the Consummate One the Arahat who has experienced both the Path and Fruition (magga - phala) When one is reciting the qualities of the Sangha - these are the 8 types of individuals that are worthy of gifts. So getting back to Venerable Sariputta's experience of the Attainment of Nibbana The Anupada Sutta says that after coming out of the state of the cessation of perception and feeling his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This means that he did experience being an arahat but he had not had the Fruition of that attainment. When he was fanning the Buddha and realized that the Buddha didn't even have an attachment to the Dhamma, then he had the fruition of arahatship arise. Also, in the Anupada Sutta (you said ***"the sutta states that Sariputta was mindful of contact and feelings while in the immaterial jhanas when that could not be possible***.") Here we are getting into the differences between the "one-pointed absorption jhana" and the "Tranquility jhana". You see this is the main difference between the two kinds of jhana. When a person is doing meditation and doesn't tranquilize the bodily and mental formations often, mind has a strong tendency to go very deep into the object of meditation and then mind will become absorbed. One-pointed absorption concentration brings a tightness back to the meditation object because there is no relaxing of mind or body, while the tranquility meditation doesn't bring this tightness or tension back to the meditation object, and because of this the results are quite different. So,the force of the one-pointed absorption concentration becomes very deep and very strong, so strong in fact: 1] that sounds are not heard, 2] someone can come up to a person who is deep in their absorption and actually hit that meditator and the meditator will not feel it. 3] A person can come up to an absorbed meditator and move their body into all different types of postures and the meditating person who is so absorbed won't even know it. etc. Because of this, the people who practice straight vipassana say that there is no full awareness or mindfulness taking place when mind is so absorbed and they are right! And also this is why people who practice vipassana say that the only way to attain Nibbana is for the meditator to come out of the jhana and begin to practice vipassana. And when one is looking at absorption concentration jhana they are 100% correct. (But fortunately the Buddha didn't teach this form of absorption concentration). And this is where the misunderstanding about the jhana practice takes place. This is the kind of arupa jhana that you were referring to in your above comment. Also, when one is practicing any form of upacara samadhi or "access concentration" (the step right before the full absorption stage currently called appana samadhi) this meditators force of the concentration will actually suppress or we can say the force of the concentration stops any hindrances from arising. I know that this sounds like a good thing but the hindrances are where our deep attachments and false ego beliefs are stored, so suppressing the hindrances doesn't really purify ones mind or show the meditator "HOW" the links of dependent origination actually arise. But this kind of absorption concentration does postpone the hindrances from arising. These suppressed hindrances can and will arise when one's absorption concentration fades away, like when the meditator starts doing their daily activities. Getting back to your observation about experiencing the 5 aggregates while one is in an arupa jhana. When the meditator follows the sutta method of tranquilizing the bodily and mental formations, their minds don't become "absorbed" or stuck to the meditation object. Sounds can be heard even while the meditator is in an arupa jhana, bodily sensation can be felt while in an arupa jhana, but and this is a big but, the mind of the meditator doesn't shake or move. They do know if someone comes up and touches them or speaks to them and their equanimity is so strong that the meditator just lets it go. They still have all of the sense doors while they experience the arupa jhana but because the equanimity becomes so strong and their letting go of whatever arises in the present moment is so clear that these things don't even become a distraction at all. They are just something else to see as a part of the impersonal process of dependent origination and they let it be. You see even while one is experiencing such deep states as the arupa jhanas (when they are practicing the sutta method of meditation) the meditators mind is still able to see and understand with clarity the impersonal nature of everything that arises and passes away. I could go on with this explanation and will in another post if you want me to. But for now I have given you a lot to consider. I do teach this method because many, many people have actually seen what I am talking about and gone even deeper. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this works this way. Also, I do know that it may be quite different from what you may have heard from other teachers. I did practice another method for 20 years and I did become successful by their standards, I heard that there are only 2 kinds of meditation to practice absorption concentration and vipassana. But through going back to the suttas and following the instructions given there I have found that there is another type of meditation and that is the sutta method that is not an absorption method of meditation, and the meditator still does experience the jhanas. I sincerely hope that I didn't cause too much confusion or cause more doubts to arise. But if I did please don't hesitate to ask for more clarification. May you attain Nibbana quickly and easily in this very life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38546 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. I would like to continue this discussion in the hopes that I may learn from the effort and your answers. You write that Sariputta only attained the path of arahantship in the Anupada Sutta but he didn't attain the fruit. You wrote that he attained the fruit of arahantship at a later time while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse. I could accept this and it sounds quite logical, but my reading of the Anupada Sutta leads me to believe that he attained the fruit of arahantship during that night of meditation. Granted, I am not really expert on the paths and the fruits because different sources appear to say different things about this (In this group, Sarah and I debated a long time about the fruits of sotapanna and never reached agreement). Let me quote some material I found that matches my understanding of the fruits of arahantship, and I will see if you agree: "The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom, the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jhanas/jhanas05.htm Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahantship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct: "2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom." Is this translation correct? If so, I would think that he could only destroy his taints one time, and not a second time while fanning the Buddha. The Anupada Sutta also goes on to state: 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: `So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: `There is no escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that, he confirmed that there is not." I would like to call your attention to the phrase "There is no escape beyond". This sounds pretty final to me. It sounds like he did everything that needed to be done. As far as what you have to say about the immaterial jhanas, I guess I will have to process that in my mind a bit more. You say that you speak from personal experience, and I have no reason to doubt you, but I still don't understand how it is possible. I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality. It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them. However, you say that there are in fact two type of jhanas. I am not sure if the Buddha taught this or if this is an extrapolation on your part (and if you stay in this group long enough you will see that there are some members who also believe in two different types of jhanas, but they don't match yours. [See UP: Jhana-Two Meanings"*] So, now there could be three different types of jhanas!! What's a jhana seeker to do?? ;-)) Metta, James *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Sarah: When these lines were briefly discussed on our last trip to Bkk, K.Sujin was referring to these same two kinds of jhana, `amramma.nuupanijjhaana' and `lakkhanuupanijjhaana', and suggesting that in this context it is the second meaning, i.e (the contemplation/penetrating of) the characteristics of any reality that is being referred to. 38547 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM, > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > > > > Hi All (especially Sarah / Jon); > > > > Great news! All of the old messages from DSG discussions have been > > put into files which can be accessed at: > > > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > .... > Thanks so much for reporting back and I'm delighted to hear you've > successfully downloaded onto your hard-drive. 38548 From: plnao Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:09am Subject: Rarity of sati (Bhante V) Dear¡¡Bhante Vimilaramsi Let me preface by saying again how grateful I am to be able to discuss Dhamma in this way with a venerable monk. I am aware of how impudent I appear by discussing with you as though we were equals in understanding. But I am also aware that you appreciate how beneficial this process can be for correcting my views. So thank you again. Don¡Çt feel any obligation to respond. I know you are busy discussing in several threads. Bhante V: One of the things that may be interesting to you is to change 'investigation of realities' to 'investigation of one's experience' this is a small changing of words but it may help. Phil: I absolutely agree about the unparalleled value of ¡Èinvestigations of one¡Çs experience¡É, but I don¡Çt think this is quite the ¡Èinvestigation of realities/phenomena¡É that is one of the factors of awakening (bojjhangas) This investigation of dhammas surely falls within examining one ¡Çs experience but it is a more refined and rare event, I think. I don¡Çt know how rare. It is quite possibly not as rare as I think it to be. But I think it is best to have patient expectations about it. You place an emphasis on nibbana in this lifetime. I have learned that it is not impossible, and that as we know there are suttas in which householders become arahant in short order. But I have a *strong hunch* that it is not wise to build our expectations based on these suttas. What is the point of expecting nibbana in this lifetime? If it comes, it will come because of our progress in eradicating defilements, not because of our expectation of it. That is my opinion, of course. I don't think there would be so many mentions of countless aeons if it weren't for the purpose of conditioning patience. "This lifetime is just a moment" is a teaching I have learned well. It is not from a sutta, I guess, but I have deeply sensed its truth recently. It's a very liberating teaching, and Dhamma is all about liberation. Bhante V: The Idea that if one experiences even one moment of Satipatthana makes this a worthwhile rebirth doesn't really agree with the Buddha's teachings (my opinion). I have run across a few monks in Asia that have the idea that trying to experience the Buddha's teachings is just too difficult for most people so they say things like this. I really don't understand this at all, maybe they don't have enough understanding of the Buddha's path or became confused, but I find this kind of thinking to be quite contrary to the suttas. Phil: Again, patience. The perfection of patience is very important. I have learned that we have to learn to be patient with good and pleasant things as well as with unpleasant ones. We often forget this. When a beginner like myself has his eyes opened to the glorious wealth of Dhamma it is so easy to become hungry for more, more, more. More peace. More wisdom. More love. In my opinion, this teaching of the rarity of sati is very helpful for the reasons laid out above. It moderates my expectations in a wholesome way. There is less thinking about becoming enlightened in this lifetime (not that that is necessarily impossible) and more appreciation of the moment. I think of that beautiful sutta in Samyutta Nikaya in which the devas wonder why the monks faces are so radiant ? it is because they do not think of the future, they live on the present. I think this has something to do with why I have responded well to the idea of sati and other wholesome factors being rare, why I have responded well to reminders that it took the Buddha countless lives to reach the ultimate liberation. It helps me to be patient when this wonderful wealth of Dhamma is being revealed to me, little bit by little bit. On the other hand, I have experienced radical progress in certain areas. The eradication of anger. The lessening of angry outbursts is very remarkable, very clear. So while I speak of patient expectations, I can also see areas of radical progress. That supports my patience. £Éimagine that in your teaching of westerners (particularly North-Americans?) you have found that many are too impatient, too expectant of immediate results. I assume that. I have certainly seen it at other internet groups. The other extreme about being too patient is also not wise. Thus my thread about being impatient with certain kinds of defilements. To summarize on this point, if sati is indeed not as rare as I have been taught, there is nothing that will prevent me from having this not-so-rare sati. The only downside to it is that, as I have sensed, some newcomers to Abhidhamma (through this group and Nina¡Çs books) are resistant to this idea of rare kusala, and therefore do not stick around long enough to experience the liberating benefits of Abhidhamma. I have sometimes thought that Nina and other writers on Abhidhamma could present it in a way that is a bit more inviting to western beginners. Because, as I have said, we in the west expect results. Perhaps there could be more explicit consideration in Nina¡Çs books of the benefits of shallow degrees of sati and panna without quite as much emphasis on the rarity of the deeper degrees. Perhaps. But that would be using wrong understanding to coax people towards right understanding, and that would be playing with fire. This is all subjective talk on my part, Bhante. I am not capable of proving whether the idea of the rarity of sati and other wholesome cittas is found it the Suttanta. And I know other teachers, such as Ajahn Chah, teach sati as something that should be maintained almost constantly. These contradictions don¡Çt concern me. It is good to be flexible, to be open to many roads to detachment. If a teaching doesn¡Çt help bring one closer to detachment, one will know soon enough, and it will be abandoned. If one doesn¡Çt have the discernment to abandon false teachings, one won¡Çt have the discernment to benefit from the true teachings, in my opinion, so the need some people feel to warn others of false teachings is moot, in my opinion. Thank you for your time, and, again, please feel no obligation to respond. It is very helpful for me to write out my ideas like this. Metta, Phil 38549 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, > Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded > discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. > I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short > time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? > Thanks in advance. .... Pls wait a little longer for an announcement on the audio side....I can't hear them either. The India series which will be uploaded soonish are very good - thx for all the good, clear qus. ...... > Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak > look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. .... We're certainly not photographers and it's a very old camera, but when Chris said hers had broken down, I thought I'd put a few there..just a taste. I have to say you look very at home with the python....;-) Metta, Sarah ========= 38550 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Hi Azita, Sarah and all, If your internet connection is not so fast, your player will download a few seconds of audio, play it and then wait until it has downloaded more. My internet connection is fast so I have no problems listening to the full talk without interruption. If your internet connection is not fast, to get around this, you take a two step process: - Download the entire file to your computer (right click and select "Save target as..."); this could take a while as the files are not small - Once the file has been downloaded onto your computer, you should be able to double-click on it and listen without interruption Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sarah, RobM, or anyone, > > Wonderful, however when I went to listen to the recorded > > discussions, they would only play for about 3 seconds and then stop. > > I kept pressing play on the player, it would play again for a short > > time and stop. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions? > > Thanks in advance. > .... > > Pls wait a little longer for an announcement on the audio side....I can't > hear them either. > > The India series which will be uploaded soonish are very good - thx for > all the good, clear qus. > ...... > > Sarah, the photos of India are great. The ones on Vultures Peak > > look good, I had forgotten how high up we were. > .... > We're certainly not photographers and it's a very old camera, but when > Chris said hers had broken down, I thought I'd put a few there..just a > taste. > > I have to say you look very at home with the python....;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= 38551 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear RobM and Sarah, Thanks to both of you. Slowness is probably the problem, Rob. My internet connection is quite slow; because of where I live, broadband is not possible. I'll try your other suggestion. With metta, Azita. P.S, Sarah, did you know that very python laid an egg down the front of one of our group? It was quite a large snake, wasn't it? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Sarah and all, > > If your internet connection is not so fast, your player will > download a few seconds of audio, play it and then wait until it has > downloaded more. My internet connection is fast so I have no > problems listening to the full talk without interruption. > ......snip...... > Hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 38552 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wierd Workings of Archives Dear Azita & RobM, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear RobM and Sarah, > > Thanks to both of you. > Slowness is probably the problem, Rob. My internet connection > is quite slow; because of where I live, broadband is not possible. > I'll try your other suggestion. .... S: After loading the India series, we have in mind to offer to send out MP3 discs to anyone unable to listen/download. So if nothing works, we have yet another back-up plan in the works....more patience needed;-). Stay posted......we're learning as we go along too. RobM, thx for telling us it's working your end and helping others. .... > P.S, Sarah, did you know that very python laid an egg down the > front of one of our group? It was quite a large snake, wasn't it? .... Very large and yes, I'm glad the egg wasn't laid whilst it was round my neck!! Metta, Sarah p.s As people like you guys are already testing out the recording of the discussion on Bkk from our last visit, I should mention that it's a very detailed discussion and probably only suitable for those with some familiarity with Pali and abhidhamma terminology (e.g those who've been around on DSG for sometime). The India series coming up, on the otherhand, will be very suitable and of interest I think, to everyone. It starts with the great discussion we had on the first morning in Bodh Gaya with Jill's qu on satipatthana. ===== 38553 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hallo Ken O You asked me: J: And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > > are not incompatible or even compatible. k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more > about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not > contain what are u trying to express. Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') christians say it is imcompatible. My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other species (for example human being). ================================================== J: I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: > > the Buddha has not > > said anything like this, was silent about it. k: What is Buddha silent about? Joop: I quote from the Majjhima Nikaya 63 (Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta) the first of the questions to which the Buddha remained silent: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then, as Ven. Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is infinite,' 'The soul & the body are the same,' 'The soul is one thing and the body another' …." These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific language. I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it also can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. ============================================== J: Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological seen. > > But that reactions are to easy: > > I like the idea of the two truths but there must > > be a kind of connection between the two truths. k: What two truths are you mentioning about? Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that of paramattha (ultimate realities) The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. I hope this will answer your questions. But, to be honest, I don't understand why you wanted to know this. Is it interest in the relation between evolutionary theory and buddhism ? Metta Joop 38554 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:40am Subject: the 4 Noble Truths. Dear Dhamma Friends, Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', but,but,but......:-) I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that instant? All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have r.v. first before any of the others arise? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 38555 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: the 4 Noble Truths. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass > ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. > If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, > cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold > path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? > > I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', > but,but,but......:-) > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path > occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in > order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? > For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have > r.v. first before any of the others arise? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, Path is not new to DSG members. The Path itself last only one single moment. That moment is real Path. At other time, it is not real Path. You asked whether it is serial. Learningwise right view comes first. But the real Path arises all 8 parts together. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38556 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Ken O / Joop, Mind if I but in? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Hallo Ken O > > You asked me: > > J: And perhaps evolutionary theory and Abhidhamma plus commentaries > > > are not incompatible or even compatible. > > k: In what ways there are incompatible? Do u like to explain more > > about it? Because that is a very brief statement and does not > > contain what are u trying to express. > > Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. > And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') > that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') christians > say it is imcompatible. > My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather > static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for > example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other species > (for example human being). > > ================================================== > J: I prefer this possibility. Of course one can say: > > > the Buddha has not > > > said anything like this, was silent about it. > > k: What is Buddha silent about? > > Joop: I quote from the Majjhima Nikaya 63 (Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta) > the first of the questions to which the Buddha remained silent: > "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then, as Ven. > Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in > his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, > discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos > is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is > infinite,' 'The soul & the body are the same,' 'The soul is one thing > and the body another' …." > > These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific > language. > I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the > evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it also > can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha > lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. > ============================================== > > J: Or one can say: this question is not important, soteriological > seen. > > > But that reactions are to easy: > > > I like the idea of the two truths but there must > > > be a kind of connection between the two truths. > > k: What two truths are you mentioning about? > > Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a > Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the > principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that > of paramattha (ultimate realities) > The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but > concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. > > > I hope this will answer your questions. But, to be honest, I don't > understand why you wanted to know this. Is it interest in the > relation between evolutionary theory and buddhism ? I picked up a recently published book, "Origin of Species According to The Buddha" by Mahinda Weerasinghe. On the cover, it makes the claim, "Orginal Theory of Evolution is by The Buddha and not by Darwin". I haven't read much of it yet, but it is more than 200 pages, packed with Sutta references. I tend to agree with Joop's position that evolution is outside of the scope of the Buddha's teaching. Ken, if you are really keen to buy a copy of this book, you can purchase it at: http://www.avakasakade.com/ (look under "Stamford Lake" / Religious Books) Ken, alternatively, we could meet up next time I am in Singapore and I will loan you the book. Metta, Rob M :-) 38557 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: the 4 Noble Truths. Hi Azita, I recently gave a dhamma talk to teens (part of a Novitiate programme) on the Noble Eighfold Path. If you have PowerPoint on your computer, you should download the .PPT version from the Files section of DSG. Otherwise, you can download the .PDF version from the Files section of DSG. Azita, we haven't met, but I assume that you are not a teenager any more :-), so you may find it a little young for you in parts. If you are looking for stuff aimed at an older audience, you can download the dhamma talks on 4 Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path given by Bhikkhu Bodhi. They are available at: http://www.bodhimonastery.net/talks_audio.html Again, I suggest that you "Save target as..." if you have a slow internet connection. Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Laying under a cool, shady tree watching some fig birds harass > ea. other, I thought about dukkha in relation to the 4NT. > If all conditioned things are dukkha, craving being the cause, > cessation of craving being the end of dukkha and the Noble 8-fold > path being the way to the end, how does one develop this path? > > I can hear already: 'there is no one to develop', > but,but,but......:-) > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path > occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in > order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? > For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have > r.v. first before any of the others arise? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 38558 From: Ken O Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Differences between human beings and animals Hi Ken > Joop: I have not stated they are incompatible, I put the question. > And I have not found references in the literature (with 'google') > that answer that question, like orthodox ('creationists') > christians say it is imcompatible. > My impression (not more than that) is that the Abhidhamma is rather > > static and difficult to combine with the idea that species (for > example an animal) can have mutations and evolute into other > species (for example human being). k: Abhidhamma is static because the Buddha values are also static and the law of D.O is also static. I definitely will not follow a religion that always evolve into newer religion, where values always changes. > These questions can easily been reformulated in modern scientific > language. I'm sure that if Malunkyaputta should have asked about the evolutionary theory, the Buddha should have been silent too: it > also can only be answered on a speculative way (in the time the Buddha lived) and should not help to enlighten Malunkyaputta. > ============================================== k: As long as it does not help lead to cessation of birth, Buddha will not say it. Buddha wisdom is Omniscient, in fact if you ask him for a cure in AIDS or cancer, he would have know. But he knows this does bring cessation to rebirth > Joop: I realize now that the principle of the two truths is more a > Mahayana way of saying and in Theravada is mostly described as the > principle of the two realities: that of pannatti (concepts) and that of paramattha (ultimate realities) > The evolutionary theory belongs to the world of concepts, but > concepts are important to understand ultimate realities. k: Concepts are not important to understand ultimate realities because they are different. I would say our mundane right understanding and thought are important to ultimate realities. Ken O 38559 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D I like to give you some information on kusala actions but dont bring cessation of rebirth. I have read the Book of Analysis. Performance of the five precepts can be done without panna . This means those selfless acts without panna will not lead to cessation of rebirth. With regard to conceptual right view, will get back to you on another day :) Ken O 38560 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I think that the confusion comes when one tries to incorporate different types of teachings. By this I mean to incorporate the commentaries and the suttas when they don't necessarily agree with each other. I do know the importance placed on seeing anicca, dukkha, and anatta by the commentaries. And to me it is done in a rather superficial way. By this I mean that these three characteristics seen by themselves as opposed to seeing them in reference to dependent origination. The latter being a much deeper insight. Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly and as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom, the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. But if one just takes a small section out of a sutta to make a point and that point doesn't agree with other suttas it can become suspect. This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38561 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:08am Subject: The Tilakkhana and Dependent Origination (Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalar ...) Hi, Bhante (and James) - In a message dated 11/20/04 12:30:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhantevimalaramsi@j... writes: > Dhamma Greetings James, > > I think that the confusion comes when one tries to incorporate > different types of teachings. By this I mean to incorporate the > commentaries and the suttas when they don't necessarily agree with each > other. I do know the importance placed on seeing anicca, dukkha, and > anatta by the commentaries. And to me it is done in a rather superficial > way. By this I mean that these three characteristics seen by themselves > as opposed to seeing them in reference to dependent origination. ====================== I agree with the foregoing, Bhante. As I see it, the tilakkhana are direct consequences of, and revealed in, dependent origination. As I see it, D.O. is the basis of the tilakkhana. In D.O. one obviously sees anicca, one sees the impersonality and uncontrollability of phenomena that actually appear (there is no "I" or "mine" in them or in "dealing with" them), and one sees lack of self-existence in them in seeing conditionality - and the impersonality, uncontrollability, and especially the lack of self-existence are, together, what anatta amounts to. Finally, by seeing all the foregoing, the impermanence, impersonality, uncontrollability, and insubstantiality of all conditioned dhammas, one also sees the impossibility of finding true or lasting satisfaction in them, and one sees how craving and clinging to such dhammas leads to mental pain - hence one directly sees that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Thus, the direct way of seeing the tilakkhana is in seeing D.O., and without that, the seeing of the tilakkhana is not a fundamental seeing, or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavangacittas 2. Dear Htoo, op 19-11-2004 14:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: > > Thanks Nina. I am clear on mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu and > panca-vinnana-dhatu. > > But regarding 'vinnana' there are panca-vinnana and mano-vinnana. So > are mano-dhatus also mano-vinnana? N: We speak about the dvipañcaviññanas, five pairs. there is viññanadhatu as a collective name for all cittas. But I did not see the term mano-viññana. There are, as you say, mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu. P.S. My Email is working again, but 160 mails appeared on my list, I cannot read all. Like you did before, I had to erase a lot. I appreciate your mails where you give additional info, always good for the readers. 38563 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." Hi Nina, That was my point. I will try again. When you listen to beautiful music(1) like (lobha) arises with pleasant feeling. Along with that arises a relaxation of the body that is also experienced as pleasant feeling(2). This relaxation is a consciousness produced rupa produced by like. If you hear an off note (3) dislike (dosa)arises. Along with this dislike a contraction arises in the body that is experienced as unpleasant. This contraction is a consciousness produced rupa produced by the dislike consciousness. This is not the case with want (lobha). Like and want are completely different. Like is a sense of appreciation; want is a sense of privation, need. Part of the logic of want is dislike of want. Part of the logic of like is like of like. The connection between the two is that we want what we like. When want arises we may notice in very close proximity there is a contraction of the body experienced as unpleasant. This contraction is a consciousness produced rupa. Want may produce this contraction out of a sense of privation or a mimicking of hunger(4) or dislike may produce this contraction. Want, itself, is never unpleasant, even though it may seem so. Even if we are starving want is not unpleasant. Is this how you understand your experience? This discussion does not address the issue of what it is that we actually like or dislike when we hear a sound. I'm going to discuss that with Htoo in the dream thread. Larry ------------------------- Note 1. What is beautiful varies from person to person and time to time and depends on what we like. Note 2. Notice I am not saying relaxation itself is a feeling. "Feeling" is a word that can refer to either nama or rupa. Body-door consciousness feels hardness with unpleasant feeling. Body-door consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling cognizes the rupa that is conventionally called relaxation of the body. Note 3. See note 1. Same logic. Note 4. Some contractions of the body are kamma produced, temperature produced, or nutriment produced. When we are truly hungry there is insufficient nutriment and one of these means of production produces bodily contractions that are cognized with body-door consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Dependent on that, desire arises. Sometimes, when we want something badly enough, consciousness produced contractions arise that are very similar to the contractions of hunger. These contractions arise _after_ the desire. Contractions can be very tiring. That is why when we travel we become unusually tired. We want to go. A sense of privation is a conceptual formation that can produce bodily contractions. L. 38564 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/20/04 2:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > Hi Nina, > > That was my point. I will try again. ========================= This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38565 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire In a message dated 11/20/2004 11:41:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > Hi Nina, > > That was my point. I will try again. ========================= This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I agree. In the 12 Fold Chain, the Buddha talks about the three types of feelings and says they are a condition for three types of cravings. As far as I'm concerned it works this way... 1) If there is a pleasurable feeling, craving for the "continuance" of that pleasure arises. (This is normally considered the craving for Being...but I see it as more fundamentally -- the craving for the "being" or continuance of a pleasurable feeling.) 2) If there is an unpleasurable feeling, craving for the "discontinuance" of that unpleasurableness arises. (This is normally considered the craving for non-Being...but I see it as more fundamentally -- the craving for the "non-being" or discontinuance of unpleasurableness. 3) If there is a neither pleasurable nor unpleasurable feeling, craving for pleasurable feeling arises. (The mind not engaged in craving after a pleasurable or unpleasurable feeling reverts to seeking pleasure which is its normal motus operandi when affected by ignorance.) In this way the three cravings based on three feelings makes perfect sense. TG 38566 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, Well done. Nice exposition of dream. I have a few questions. If we say the dream image is a memory why are not the javana cittas also memories? If memories are concepts then doesn't tadarammana citta (registration consciousness) condition memory and therefore concepts? Does 5-door determining consciousness (votthapana citta) and mind- door-adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) [the same consciousness with slightly different functions] retrieve memory as part of their function? If so, doesn't this mean that all javana cittas, even panna, both lokya and lokuttara, are conditioned by concept? Are accumulations (ayuhana) concepts? Can we understand these as memories or habits? Is concept dukkha? Why? thanks, Larry 38567 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:24pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dear Bhante, James, Nina, Robert K and All, May I butt in here. With much respect, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please provide the original Pali and their meanings? May I ask 'what are the links of D.O'? May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Which part of the Sutta say these? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is difference. Seeing of tilakkhana is done by kamavacara mahakusala cittas while seeing of nibbana is done my magga cittas and phala cittas. Seeing tilakkhana does lead to Nibbana. No one saw tilakkhana before arising of The Buddha. The Buddha first saw it and this led Him to Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not enough? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who see D.O? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on Paticcasamuppada for a week. But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara mahakiriya cittas. Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha could not abolish the citta niyama. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was any flaw. Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This must be other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom,the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are physical phenomena. They are not equal. Craving is lobha cetasika. Any bodily sensations are not cetasikas. They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. They are visaya rupa. Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation this is wrong. Craving does not equal to head-ache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. But related to lobha. Lobha and dosa never arise together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This makes much sense. In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single object and said to be deeply concentrated. But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to understand. In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is rupavacara rupa jhana. In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's Teaching?'. Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong fact. Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya nana. Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. The frist 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, dukkha, and anatta. This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the middle way or majjhima patipada. Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any of DO. I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. But now someone clings to D.O. Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what have not been heard before. What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? That Sutta says the practitioner has to do foreward, then backward, then foreward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain on these matter rather than talking on head-ache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: But if one just takes a small section out of a sutta to make a point and that point doesn't agree with other suttas it can become suspect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Repeatition is because Suttas were preached to different destination at different time. May you be free from suffering. My palms are together and vow three times to you. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38568 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D / Ken O / Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > I like to give you some information on kusala actions but dont bring cessation of rebirth. I have > read the Book of Analysis. Performance of the five precepts can be done without panna . This > means those selfless acts without panna will not lead to cessation of rebirth. With regard to > conceptual right view, will get back to you on another day :) I am confused. What do you see as the relationship between performing kusala and cessation of rebirth? In his previous life Sakka / Indra and his 32 buddies dedicated their lives to helping others. Their reward? They were reborn as the 33 Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven. Escape from rebirth happens when we no longer cling to continued existence. This only happens when we become an Arahant; by the way, Arahants do not have any kusala thoughts - kusala thoughts create good kamma and Arahants do not create any kamma, good or bad. If we look at the ten bases for meritorious deeds (punna-kiriya- vatthu): - The Dana group (Generosity, Transference of merit, Rejoicing in others' merit) does not require panna - The Sila group (Virtue, Reverence, Service) does not require panna - The Bhavana group (Meditation, Hearing the Dhamma, Teaching the Dhamma, Straightening out one's View) does require panna Clearly, one is not going to progress spiritually without performing deeds from the bhavana group. In fact, humans and lower devas with life-continuum mental states with two roots (no panna root), cannot achive jhana or sotapanna stage; they can perform deeds from the bhavana group, but they will not achieve jhana or sotapanna. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Phil, I think this relates somewhat to a question that you asked me off-line regarding panna. 38569 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Howard, I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 11/20/04 2:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Nina: "Desire cannot be accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling." > > > > Hi Nina, > > > > That was my point. I will try again. > ========================= > This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, > aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. > > With metta, > Howard > 38570 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Dear Larry, All big questions. But I will try to answer them all. Thanks for your kind words on dream post. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Hi Htoo, Well done. Nice exposition of dream. I have a few questions. If we say the dream image is a memory why are not the javana cittas also memories? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dream images are not memory in abhidhamma. All dream images are concept. They all are pannatta dhamma. What I said in my 'dream post' was scientific memory. They are carried along nerve calls and stored in the memory area of the brain. These scientific ideas are not abhidhamma. So dream images are not memory. They are concept or pannatta. Javana cittas are not memory. Javana cittas are all cittas. But they do arise with sanna cetasika. Sanna cognizes specific marks. Sanna in collection may be called as memory. But javana cittas are not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If memories are concepts then doesn't tadarammana citta (registration consciousness) condition memory and therefore concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, I believe tadarammana cittas are retention consciousness. They just retain the object. The object in pancadvara vithi has a lifespan of 17 cittakkhanas. That is the rupa has 51 anukhana. 1 cittakkhana has 3 anukhana. They are upada, thiti, and bhanga. Among 51 sub-moments, rupa in its initial arising cannot give rise to arammana. So 1 citta has to pass away. It is atita bhavanga citta. Next rupa does the job of arammana. But cittas are still at past arammana as it is still bhavanga citta but as rupa makes an arammana that 2nd bhavanga citta is invigorated and vibrating and called bhavanga calana citta. As there is an alarm, the running man has to stop. But as he has been running for a long time, he cannot stop deadstop. Instead he overshoots a few steps say about 2 or 3 step. So 3 cittas take as bhavanga cittas. After that 1. pancadvara avajjana citta 2. pancavinnana citta 3. sampaticchana citta 4. santirana citta 5. votthapana citta 6. 7 javana cittas So far 3 bhavanga cittas + 5 cittas + 7 javana cittas, 15 cittakkhanas have passed and among 17 cittakkhanas, only 2 cittakkhanas left. As it is still vithi vara, bhavanga cittas cannot arise. Javana cittas have passed away. So as a continuation another 2 cittas just retain the object from javana cittas. So I believe these 2 tadarammana cittas are retention consciousness. Registration is something like the function of sanna cetasika. As sanna is also in tadarammana cittas, it may be confused. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Does 5-door determining consciousness (votthapana citta) and mind- door-adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) [the same consciousness with slightly different functions] retrieve memory as part of their function? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Retrieval is done by sanna cetasika. But as it is associated with citta, this may be the area of confusion. It may be but not exactly. Actually it is done by sanna cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If so, doesn't this mean that all javana cittas, even panna, both lokya and lokuttara, are conditioned by concept? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Whom does pannatta condition? Arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. Pannatta does stand as arammana. Arammanas are condition. They are conditioning dhamma. But 8 lokuttara cittas are not conditioned by pannatta. 4 of 8 arupavacara javana cittas are not conditioned by pannatta. 4 arupavipaka cittas are not javana cittas. But all 15 rupavacara cittas are conditioned by pannatta. So all 10 rupavacara javana cittas are conditioned by pannatta. All 12 akusala cittas, all 24 kamavacara kama sobhana cittas can be conditioned by pannatta. 12 + 16 = 28 javana cittas may or may not be conditioned by pannatta. That is when other dhamma condition these cittas they are not conditioned by pannatta. But they can be conditioned by pannatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Are accumulations (ayuhana) concepts? Can we understand these as memories or habits? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ayuhana is furtherance. It is accumulation. It is its own process and it is not memory. And not habits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Is concept dukkha? Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. It is not dukkha. Because it does not exist from the start as an ultimate reality. It does not arise and does not fall away. It is not anicca and equally it is not nicca as it does not exist from the start. As it is not anicca, it is not a dukkha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: thanks, Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38571 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Nice that understanding, wise consideration and so on provide the > impetus for this kind of right effort, without the present 'willing' of it > to occur. All quite natural I think (even inevitable), when the conditions > have accumulated. Thanks Mike, I like your choice of the word, "inevitable," although I am sure it raised a few eyebrows. We worldlings think we have control over our morality. We think we can choose to have wrong view or we can choose to fly into a rage if that is what we want. But what does that say about the Ariyans? A Sotapanna can't have wrong view, an Anagami can't have ill will, and an Arahant can't have even the tiniest bit of conceit. So we must think we have more control than the Ariyans! That shows how ridiculous we are with our beliefs in control. We really must learn to see 'conditionality everywhere and in all things.' For that, we need more Abhidhamma study, not less (despite what some of our DSG friends are telling us). And we need more coaching from the arahant ancient commentators, not less! Kind regards, Ken H 38572 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 129 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Phassa, vedana, cetana, sanna, ekaggata, jivitindriya, manasikara all these 7 cetasika arise with 89 cittas. Vitakka arises in 55 cittas. Vicara arises in 66 cittas. Piti arises in 51 cittas. Viriya arises in 73 cittas. Adhimokkha arises in 78 cittas. And chanda arises in 69 cittas. After 7 universal cetasikas and 6 particular cetasikas, there come 14 akusala cetasikas and 25 sobhana cetasikas. Akusala cetasikas are 4 moha-led cetasikas, 3 lobha-led cetasikas, 4 dosa-led cetasikas, and other 3 akusala cetasikas. Moha-led, lobha-led, and dosa-led means they are rooted by theri root dhamma or hetu. 4 moha-rooted cetasikas are moha, ahirika, anottappa and uddhacca cetasikas. Moha is the king of akusala kingdom. Uddhacca is the secretary to moha. Ahirika and anottappa are right-wing and left-wing generals of the akusala king moha. These 4 cetasikas always arise with any of akusala cittas. So they arise in 12 akusala cittas. They do not arise in any other cittas. These 4 cetasikas are called universal akusala cetasika or akusala sadharana cetasikas. Lobha, mana, ditthi cetasikas can arise in 8 lobha cittas and they do not arise in any other cittas. Again mana and ditthi never arise together. Lobha cetasika always arises in 8 lobha mula cittas. Ditthi cetasika arises in 4 ditthi gata sampayutta cittas. Mana cetasika arises in 4 ditthi gata vippayutta cittas. 4 dosa-rooted cetasikas arise only in 2 dosa mula cittas. Dosa always arises in dosa mula cittas. But other 3 cetasikas namely issa, macchariya, and kukkucca never arise together and they even do not arise with any of them. These cetasikas do not arise in any other cittas. They only arise in 2 dosa mula cittas. 2 cetasikas thina and middha arise in 5 sasankharika cittas. That is 4 lobha mula sasankharika cittas and 1 dosa mula sasankharika citta. They always arise together. Apart from these 5 cittas, they do not arise in any other cittas. Vicikiccha cetasika arisesonly in vicikiccha citta. It never arises in any other 88 cittas. 4 moha-rooted cetasikas arise in 12 akusala cittas, 3 lobha-rooted cetasika arise in 8 lobha mula cittas, 4 dosa-rooted cetasikas arise in 2 dosa mula cittas, 2 cetasikas thina and middha arise in 5 cittas, and 1 vicikiccha cetasika arise in 1 vicikiccha citta. 4 + 3 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 14 cetasikas are akusala cetasikas. And they arise only in 12 akusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38573 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:08am Subject: Gain & Loss ... !!! Friends: Right Relevance: What Counts ? There are these five kinds of Gain: Gain of Family Gain of Possessions Gain of Health Gain of Morality Gain of Right View At the breakup of the body, right after death, one may rearise in a Happy State, a Divine World, only from the gain of Morality & Right View..., but neither from gain of family, health, wealth, nor possessions !!! There are these five kinds of Loss: Loss of Family Loss of Possessions Loss of Health Loss of Morality Loss of Right View At the breakup of the body, right after death, one may fall to an Evil & Painful State, the Hells, only from the loss of Morality & Right View..., but neither from loss of family, health, wealth, nor possessions !!! ______________________________________ Sources: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya III 146 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html The Long Discourses of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 235 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38574 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah (and Dan), Hope you don't mind mind coming in on this thread so late. I'm still far from caught up, so apologies for any redundancies. Thanks Sarah, I think these are good citations for this thread and ones I hadn't had time to dig up. In the case of the Kitagiri Sutta do you think the 'reflective understanding' is conceptual and that the concept might be a decisive support condtion (upanissaya paccaya*) for satipa.t.thaana or even maggacitta? I think this is more or less the way I've been thinking about it. If so it hardly matters whether it's called 'sammaadi.t.thi' or not, it is conceptual, unique to the Buddhadhamma and priceless, or so it seems to me. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" > S: So when we read in suttas such as the Kitagiri Sutta about the gradual > trainging, how one with faith visits the teacher, pays respect, gives ear, > hears the Dhamma, memorises, examines the meaning, gains a reflective > understanding etc, would there be direct awareness from the start at each > moment of 'giving ear', or would the conceptual right view whilst > listening and considering be a 'right' condition for awareness to arise > and develop? Or would it simply be wrong here? > > When we read in other suttas about the necessary factors for stream entry > being: a) association with superior persons, b) hearing the true Dhamma, > c) careful attention, d) practice in accordance with the Dhamma, are the > first three factors right or wrong? > > [SN 55, 55-61 > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom,.to the growth of wisdom,..to the expansion of > wisdom,.to the realization of thr fruit of stream-entry,.to the > realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma..."] *From Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA (9) Decisive-support (or inducement) condition (upanissaya-paccaya) is threefold, namely: a.. (a) by way of object (árammanúpanissaya-paccaya), b.. (b) by way of proximity (anantarúpanissaya), c.. (c) natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya). These conditions act as strong inducement or cogent reason. a.. (a) Anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, real or imaginary, may, as object of our thinking, become a decisive support, or strong inducement, to moral, immoral or karmically neutral states of mind. Evil things, by wrong thinking about them, become an inducement to immoral life; by right thinking, an inducement to moral life. But good things may be an inducement not only to similarly good things, but also to bad things, such as self-conceit, vanity, envy, etc. b.. (b;) is identical with proximity condition (No. 4). c.. (c) Faith, virtue, etc., produced in one's own mind, or the influence of climate, food, etc., on one's body and mind, may act as natural and decisive support-conditions. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, etc.; greed to theft, hate to murder; unsuitable food and climate to ill-health; friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paccaya.htm ---------- 38575 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. J: Yes, the second of these would be correct, I believe. Pannatti are not paramattha dhammas (and indeed this would be one way of describing what is meant by the term). H: If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. J: Yes to your (2). While it can be said that dhammas ‘are’ (fleetingly, when they arise), it cannot be said that pannatti ‘are’. H: In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would think, be unacceptable. J: Correct. To my understanding, it is not appropriate to talk about consciousness ‘taking’ pannatti as object, in the same sense that consciousness can be said to ‘take’ a (previously arisen) dhamma as object. Pannatti are mere creations of the mind. Hence they are object of consciousness, without being ‘objects’ in any sense. H: This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. J: Pannatti are not supposed to ‘be’ anything. The term is merely a designation for mere designations and concepts collectively, and does not represent any thing. Hence, thinking (the moment of consciousness) ‘is’, but not its object (‘thoughts’). None of this is readily apparent to us right now; indeed, the appearance is otherwise. And I realise this goes against any held views of phenomenalism ;-)). Jon 38576 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. Hi Htoo, I also was at Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha for three months in '88. Mahasi Sayadaw was, as you pointed out, long dead. Ven. U Pandita was in charge. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:35 AM Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking, to Bhante and Howard.. > Actually Mahasi Sayadaw 'Bhante Sobhana' the great died on Saturday > 15.8.82. I was wondering how he was trained by Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhante > Sobhana). Round about that time there were some Nayaka Sayadaws > (patronic teacher monks) like Bhante Sujata of Moulmein or > Mawlamyaing and Bhante Pandita etc. 38577 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, Thanks for your answers. I don't see how dream images are not memories or how dream javanas are not memories. What is a memory? If sanna remembers a sign (nimitta), then that sign is a memory, isn't it? If sanna perceives signs then sanna perceives concepts. Isn't this the same as saying sanna creates (conditions) concepts? Isn't a dream image a sign remembered by sanna? How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? If so, wouldn't that mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations (ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? If concept is not dukkha then dream is nibbana. Larry 38578 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, Here is a section of the book that I am currently writting. It still needs some refinements but it may help to answer some of your questions. I will send it in two installments to help cut down on the length. I will try to answer your other questions also but I thought you would like to see this first. Maha Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi How is Nibbana attained, How does the person who attained Nibbana experience and Understand Fruition when it arises, and the Importance of Dependent Origination! The importance of Dependent Origination (paticca samupatta) in the Buddha’s original teachings (Dhamma) is regarded by Buddhists of the Theravada tradition, as being at the foundation and crux of the Buddha’s teachings, for a good reason. Fortunately, it is still available today for those of us who are interested in living a life free from suffering (nibbana). The Pali Canon makes it quite clear that Dependent Origination is not merely one strand or thread (sutta) of teaching among many others. It is the very essence of the Teachings (Dhamma) and is the "only way" to gain the deep insights (vipassana) necessary to attain liberation from all suffering. Currently the Pali word "vipassana" is translated as being "insight or clear understanding into the true nature of all things that arise and pass away". This definition is very good especially when one understands "how" dependent origination is a process to be closely looked at and comprehended. This is the "only way" to gain the insight (vipassana) necessary to observe exactly "how" this process is the way to recognize and actually penetrate the true nature of all existence. The Pali word "sutta" means thread or strand of string that when woven together makes up a fine and beautiful cloth, which in the same way, is the way the suttas are interwoven and interconnected in the entire original teaching of the Buddha-Dhamma. Dependent Origination is the remarkable, dramatic insight (vipassana), that was never before heard. Observing this unique perspective for ourselves is the true "way to liberation from all suffering". This is why it is at the very heart of the Buddha’s teachings. It is this radical insight (vipassana) into the workings of mind that distinguishes itself from all other religious teachings and is why this path is so important to practice and realize. Dependent origination is the essential lesson at the very heart of the Dhamma. All of the other Buddhist teachings (Dhamma) unfolds from this very core when seen through the eyes of the Four Noble Truths [which includes the Noble Eightfold Path] (that is the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Seven Enlightenment Factors, the Five Aggregates, and the Thirty-Seven Factors of Enlightenment, etc. All of these come from seeing and realizing Dependent Origination for oneself !) Once the bodhisatta became the Buddha, his entire mission was to proclaim the impersonal process of dependent origination to the world! So often does the Buddha do this in sutta after sutta, that dependent origination (as seen through the understanding of the use of the Eightfold Path) has come to be regarded as the most essential and necessary part of all of his teachings (Dhamma) to see and understand deeply. One time the Buddha was asked to state his most basic message in the shortest and most precise way, he said: "This is the impersonal doctrine that phenomena arise and cease through causes". What he is referring to is the specific processes of all phenomena. In other words, everything that arises from a cause ceases when the cause passes away. With this single precise statement, the Buddha takes away all doubt about the value and correctness of seeing and understanding this process. Dependent origination is not some simple assertion of a general observation of how conditions arise and pass away, but a very deep and detail way of seeing how mind works in minute detail. This is an important point that seems to be overlooked today in this country. This teaching holds that phenomena of a specific type originate only through these specific conditions, never through the conditions appropriate to some other type. Thus, dependent origination, is a teaching of specific stages of a process that arises and passes away very quickly, and deals primarily with the processes of these mind movements that occur. It treats these phenomena, not in terms of their isolated connections, but in terms of their re-occurring patterns that shows that these processes always arise and pass away in exactly the same way: "Bhikkhus, what is dependent origination? 'With birth as condition aging-and-death come to be' - whether Tathagatas arise or not, that element stands, that structuredness of phenomena, that fixed determination of phenomena, specific conditionality. That a Tathagata awakens to and comprehends. Having awakened to it and comprehends it, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, reveals it, analyzes it, and clarifies it, saying : 'See, bhikkhus, with birth as condition aging-and-death come to be.' The reality in that, the undeludedness, invariability, specific conditionality - this, bhikkhus, is called dependent arising." (Taken from the Samyutta Nikaya Volume 1 pages 550 - 551, Sutta number 20 (10) Conditions. Translated by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) This is why in the Mahahatthipadopama sutta number 28, section 28, taken from the Majjhima Nikaya, he says "He who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma, he who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination." This is why the Buddha’s teachings are called "the Path of Awakening". The Buddha was not interested in abstract formulas devoid of real content; for him content is all-important. (All of his teachings can be understood clearly when the student begins to practice meditation and follows the instructions given in the suttas.) His teaching is concerned with a problem - the problem of suffering (dukkha) - and with the tasks of bringing suffering to an end. Dependent origination is introduced because it is extremely relevant to these concerns, maybe that should be put in stronger terms. It is not so relevant as it is indispensable. Dependent Arising defines the framework needed to understand the problem and also indicates the approach that must be taken if that problem is to be resolved. The suffering with which the Buddha’s teachings are concerned has a far deeper meaning than personal unhappiness, discontent, depression, or psychological stress. It includes these, of course, but these teachings go so much further beyond that. The problem in its fullest measure is the suffering of being trapped (of our own making) to the repeated rounds of birth and death. To gain liberation from all suffering, requires more than relief from ones ever-changing individual psychological manifestations. It requires nothing short of total liberation from this ceaseless cycle of birth and death. In order to end this continuous cycle, the conditions that cause suffering have to be eliminated; and to eliminate them it is necessary to know what they are, how they hold everything together, and what must be done to extinguish their causal force. Though the cycle of birth and death has no first point, no cause outside of itself, it does have a distinct structure, a set of internal conditions that keep itself in motion. The teaching of dependent origination discloses this set of conditions. It lays them out in an interconnecting sequence which makes it clear how existence repeatedly renews itself from within and how it will continue to do so into the future through the continued activation of these causes. Most importantly, however, dependent origination shows that the cycle can be stopped ! It traces the series of conditions to its simplest and most fundamental part (this is the second Noble Truth - The Cause of Suffering is Craving). Then it points out that "Craving" can be eliminated and that with its elimination the cycle of rebirths and its attendant suffering are brought to a halt. 38579 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, This is the second installment from my book it is a sutta that explains exactly what dependent origination is. Please remember that in the first installment I said that the way to get off of the wheel of samsara is by recognizing the Cause of suffering which is Craving. Craving always shows itself as a subtle tightness or tension that arises in both the mind and body. So when we follow the sutta instructions of tranquilizing the bodily and mental formations often, we are letting go of that craving. Even though it lasts for only a short period of time. Hope this is of some use to you. I have added some comments to help clarify things about these links. If you would like more clarification please don't hesitate to ask. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi P.S. I will have to wait until tomorrow to answer your other questions. It has been a long day and there is still much to do. So what exactly is dependent origination? In this sutta it is defined as spelled exactly and precisely. Nidanasmayutta 2 (2) Analysis of Dependent Origination Taken from the Samyutta Nikaya Volume 1, translated by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi Pages 534 - 536 At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you dependent origination and I will analyze it for you. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir," those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: "And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness [comes to be]; with consciousness as condition, mentality and materiality [come to be]; with mentality and materiality as condition, the six sense bases [come to be]; with the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving [comes to be]; with craving as condition, clinging [comes to be]; with clinging as condition, existence [comes to be]; with existence as condition, birth [comes to be]; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow lamentation, pain, grief and despair [comes to be]. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. "And what is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: This is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death. "And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent [into the womb], production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth. "And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence. "And what, bhikkhus, is clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and vows (rites and rituals), clinging to a doctrine of self. This is called clinging. (This includes all thinking, concepts, opinions and ideas that can cloud one’s mind because it distracts one away from seeing this as an impersonal process. Clinging can create a lot of stories about the craving and feeling which takes the meditator away from seeing the true nature of all reality -seeing this as an impersonal process (anatta) that is always changing (anicca), and this change causes suffering (dukkha). "And what, bhikkhus, is craving? There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for tastes, craving for tactile objects, craving for mental phenomena. This is called craving. (craving manifests as a tightness or tension in both one’s body and mind. It is a subtle feeling that if ignored over time will actually become a hindrance to one’s progress and insights. Craving is the ‘I like it... I don’t like it mind’. It grabs onto the feeling and begins to make that feeling a part of a personal process, then when clinging arises it completes the task of making all thoughts, feelings, concepts and ideas seem to be ‘Me, Mine, I’.) "And what, bhikkhus, is feeling? These are the six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of mind-contact. This is called feeling. (Feeling comes in three basic forms - although they can be expanded greatly in number see sutta 59 Many Kinds of Feeling in the Majjhima Nikaya - they are pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling) "And what, bhikkhus, is contact? There are these six classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. This is called contact. "And what, bhikkhus, are the six sense bases? The eye base, the ear base, the nose base, the tongue base, the body base, and the mind base. These are the six sense bases. "And what, bhikkhus, is mentality/materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called mentality. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called materiality (this includes all of the physical sense doors). Thus this mentality/materiality are together called mentality/materiality. "And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness. "And what, bhikkhus, are the volitional formations? There are these three kinds of volitional formations: the bodily volitional formation, the verbal volitional formation, the mental volitional formation. "And what, bhikkhus, is ignorance? Not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, and not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. "Thus, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition, volitional formation [come to be]; with volitional formation as condition, consciousness [comes to be]; with consciousness as condition, mentality/materiality [come to be]; with mentality/materiality as condition, the six sense bases [come to be]; with the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition, feeling [comes to be]; with feeling as condition, craving [comes to be]; with craving as condition, clinging [comes to be]; with clinging as condition, existence [comes to be]; with existence as condition, birth [comes to be]; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair [come to be]. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formation; with the cessation of volitional formations, comes the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, comes the cessation of mentality/materiality; with the cessation of mentality/materiality, comes the cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, comes the cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, comes the cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, comes the cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, comes the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, comes the cessation of existence, with the cessation of existence, comes the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, comes the cessation of aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." 38580 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/20/04 3:48:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the > truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a > state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for > deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter > of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate > relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. > > Larry > ===================== Yes, we disagree. I understand aversion to be exactly vibhava tanha, the desire to get rid of, a species of craving. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38581 From: Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/20/04 6:44:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Yay! Thank you, Htoo, for pointing this out. Either "pa~n~natti" > are dhammas or there *are no such things* as pa~n~natti. > > J: > Yes, the second of these would be correct, I believe. Pannatti are not > paramattha dhammas (and indeed this would be one way of describing what is > meant by the term). > > H: > If there are such things, then as dhammas, they are either sankhata or > asankhata. There is, as you point out, Sarah, only one asankhata dhamma, > namely nibbana. This leaves the following alternatives, then: > 1) Pa~n~natti are sankhata dhammas, > 2) There are no such things as pa~n~natti. > > J: > Yes to your (2). While it can be said that dhammas ‘are’ (fleetingly, > when they arise), it cannot be said that pannatti ‘are’. > > H: > In case 1) pa~n~natti are impermanent. In case 2), a lot of folks > on DSG spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent things that > supposedly can be objects of consciousness. Each of these, namely a) > "pa~n~natti being impermanent", and b) "consciousness taking an object > that is not an object, for there is no such thing at all" should, I would > think, be unacceptable. > > J: > Correct. To my understanding, it is not appropriate to talk about > consciousness ‘taking’ pannatti as object, in the same sense that > consciousness can be said to ‘take’ a (previously arisen) dhamma as > object. Pannatti are mere creations of the mind. Hence they are object > of consciousness, without being ‘objects’ in any sense. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, Jon. So far we completely agree. As far as your last two sentences are concerned, I take them to mean that the so called pa~n~natti are mere imaginings of the mind, they are merely imagined. In actuality, there are no such things. The problem is one of language here. When we use a name, that already implies to us an alleged existent that is named, even when we use the name to *deny* that existence! For example, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" seems to be saying that the "property" of existence doesn't apply to Santa Claus, and yet the very referring to Santa Claus suggests the opposite! Actually, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" really means that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, and that would be a better way of stating it. Likewise, there are no such things as pa~n~natti, but when we use the term 'pa~n~natti', that usage suggests otherwise. ------------------------------------------------- > > H: > This all says to me that the topic of pa~n~natti is an incoherent > one, ill defined, not understood, and a distraction from the Dhamma. There > are thoughts arising and ceasing in the mind - *they* are sankhata > dhammas. But I have not a clue what pa~n~natti are supposed to be. > > J: > Pannatti are not supposed to ‘be’ anything. The term is merely a > designation for mere designations and concepts collectively, and does not > represent any thing. > > Hence, thinking (the moment of consciousness) ‘is’, but not its object > (‘thoughts’). > > None of this is readily apparent to us right now; indeed, the appearance > is otherwise. And I realise this goes against any held views of > phenomenalism ;-)). > --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think it does. There is deuded appearance and there is undeluded appearance. A phenomenalism that doesn't countenance that is not a phenomenalism that I approve of. ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38582 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections hello KenH, Well said. Good reminders about no control. I like to hear this kind of talk often. mostly, our every day life is full of 'control' - at home, at work, on the road - ummmm, I sound like a control freak!, but you know what I mean, I hope. We are actively encouraged by society to be 'in control of ourselves and our behaviour', and on that conventional level, it's not such a bad thing. To really understand the no control aspect of life, is heaps more difficult - I need lots of reminders. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > .....snip..... > Thanks Mike, I like your choice of the word, "inevitable," although > I am sure it raised a few eyebrows. We worldlings think we have > control over our morality. We think we can choose to have wrong view > or we can choose to fly into a rage if that is what we want. But > what does that say about the Ariyans? A Sotapanna can't have wrong > view, an Anagami can't have ill will, and an Arahant can't have even > the tiniest bit of conceit. So we must think we have more control > than the Ariyans! > > That shows how ridiculous we are with our beliefs in control. We > really must learn to see 'conditionality everywhere and in all > things.' For that, we need more Abhidhamma study, not less (despite > what some of our DSG friends are telling us). And we need more > coaching from the arahant ancient commentators, not less! > > Kind regards, > Ken H 38583 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 54 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)] ***** Saññå, which can be translated as perception, recognition or remembrance, is another cetasika among the seven ‘universals’ which accompany every citta. Saññå accompanies every citta, there is no moment without saññå. Saññå experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies but it performs its own task: it ‘perceives’ or ‘recognizes’ the object and it ‘marks’ it so that it can be recognized again. The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 110) states about saññå: .…It has the characteristic of noting(1)and the function of recognizing .what has been previously noted. There is no such thing as perception .in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of noting. All .perceptions have the characteristic of noting. Of them, that perceiving .which knows by specialized knowledge has the function of recognizing .what has been noted previously. We may see this procedure when the .carpenter recognizes a piece of wood which he has marked by .specialized knowledge… *** (1) In Påli: sañjånåti, cognizing well. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38584 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 0:18am Subject: Views and the Meditator Dear Group I would like to share with you the following quotation from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Introduction to his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries - The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1992 reprint p. 6): "... Views proceed from ignorance and blindness rather than from knowledge. They involve misinterpretations of experience stemming from subjective distortions of the actual experiential data. ... All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of meditative attainments has significant implications for our understanding of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. It suffices to caution us against the hasty generalization that speculative views take rise through a preference for theorisation over the more arduous task of practice. As our sutta shows, many of these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion and keen contemplative zeal. For these views, the very basis of their formulation is a higher experience rather than the absence of one. That views of a metaphysical nature result from such endeavours indicates that they spring from a source more deeply grounded in the human mind even than the disposition to theorization. This source is the clinging to being ..." With best wishes Andrew 38585 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: "One path" Dear Bhante, > Bhante: It is too bad that you feel this way it robs both of us from a deeper > understanding. As far as learning is concerned, I am sure it doesn't depend solely on us responding to one another's posts. :-) But because I heard that Sarah is busy this weekend, I think I will express my understanding of `panna' and find out if you will agree. Panna is of course, "understanding". There is I believe two distinct directions which panna can take and be developed depending on the object, though because they are in essence the same mental factor, these two can support each other. One type is the understanding of the danger in akusala rooted in dosa and lobha and the benefit of wholesome states of mind. This kind of panna however, can be developed on and on up to the level of the highest jhanas and yet have no clue about anatta. And as you know, this cannot eradicate defilements of any level, but only suppress them. The other direction which panna can take and this happens (excepting Pacceka Buddhas) only in a Buddha sasana, is seeing the danger in ignorance and wrong view. This type of panna is rightly called Right View. Only when this type of panna has been conditioned and appreciated, can the two types support each other. The first type on its own does not lead to the second type, but the latter does help to make the first type more developed and become parami even. As Buddhists, I think we should therefore be concerned primarily only with this second type. And as I have said, this panna can be conditioned only after hearing the Teachings, it makes sense that it develops in stages starting with intellectual understanding or `pariyatti'. Even here there are many degrees, for eg. between sutta maya panna and cinta maya panna. In any case, only with this can then the next level of panna be conditioned, which is practice or `patipatti'. And why is it called `practice', because what has been understood only intellectually is now directly seen and understood. And because in the beginning this is necessarily very weak, i.e. a moment followed by akusala as usual, it need further and further development such that chances of subsequent moments being seen, increases. And here too, it starts with a vague understanding of the visesa lakkhana, through development until the Tilakkhana is perceived directly with vipassana panna. And it is when sati and panna have been developed to sufficient degree with enough patipatti, do insight occur leading through the various stages, and culminating in realization or `pativedha'. However this development is not like one finishes and leaves the first level and moves on to the next. Pariyatti is important if not crucial all the way through, and patipatti is needed even for the ariyans. This said, I think we should know where our level of understanding is. I observe that many who call themselves Buddhists, esp. many who are born one, their understanding is only of the first type, namely that which sees the danger in akusala. Few really appreciate the value in Right View and are satisfied only to lead more happy and peaceful lives and aim for better rebirths. They aim to be `good persons' and therefore may keep strict Sila and practice Dana without any understanding. Others who know enough to see danger in the kilesas and therefore seek to be without them, may not have enough of panna to consider if the present moment is with or without understanding. These then may follow advices and instruction on methods of practice which are future projected, not realizing that `self' is being reinforced and that the cause does not reflect the goal, which should be complete detachment from self. As I was saying to KK and on Triplegem, I find the D.O. really very difficult to grasp intellectually. My understanding of nama and rupa is yet only intellectual, and I think it is important to keep this in mind. Because otherwise when reading about more complex relations, I might be lured into trying to understand those in experience and engage in wrong practices. And because in such a case I would be motivated by avijja and lobha, illusion of result will most likely happen. This is why I feel motivated to go back to the basics and this means reading and listening. Sometimes there may be trying to catch realities, but sati can come in and remind that this is all just "thinking". And I believe this is crucial and relates to the other important distinction to be made, i.e. between concept and reality. This is already too long, so I will end here. Look forward to any comments. Metta, Sukin 38586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 52-Feeling/Vedana (y) Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Okay, Jon. So far we completely agree. As far as your last two sentences are concerned, I take them to mean that the so called pa~n~natti are mere imaginings of the mind, they are merely imagined. In actuality, there are no such things. Jon: Yes, that’s how I understand it. Howard: The problem is one of language here. When we use a name, that already implies to us an alleged existent that is named, even when we use the name to *deny* that existence! For example, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" seems to be saying that the "property" of existence doesn't apply to Santa Claus, and yet the very referring to Santa Claus suggests the opposite! Actually, "Santa Claus doesn't exist" really means that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, and that would be a better way of stating it. Likewise, there are no such things as pa~n~natti, but when we use the term 'pa~n~natti', that usage suggests otherwise. Jon: Yes, it's interesting to note that when you and I talk about Santa Clause not existing no such problem arises, whereas it might well do in the case of young children. A similar situation occurs in our reading of the suttas. Speech between the Buddha and those ready for enlightenment is likely to be in terms that require further spelling out for those of us who are not at that same level of understanding. Jon 38587 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Robert, > > Bhante* > > I think you are not really understanding what I am referring to. In > the 'Chachakka Sutta" #148 in the Majjhima Nikaya (The Six Sets of Six) > it gives a very clear and precise description of six of the links of > Dependent origination that is very deep and detailed. And when one > compares this with the sutta that I sent to you it agrees completely. Now > if you were to take the Anapanasati Sutta (#118 of the Majjhima Nikaya) > and look at the phrase " He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing > the bodily formations'; he trains thus, 'I shall breathe out experiencing.... Now > if you will look at the instructions given by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw or > the Visuddhi Magga, do you see these instructions given? =========== Dear venerable Vimalaramsi, Buddhaghosa has given a commentary on the Anapanasati sutta and I would say it takes clear account of the various factors explained by teh Buddha. I cannot see why you don't think so? As for the Visuddhimagga , the detailed traeatment of Dependent origination is beautiful and sublime IMO. ============================== If not then the > practice is not the same as the above mentioned sutta and can not > possibly lead to the same end results. Can you see this? ========= What I can't see is where you find any shortcomings in the Visuddhmagga or commentaries? Rather than being lacking the commentaries add detail and explicate the pithy sayings in the suttas. ===================================== > I take that to > mean that simply seeing the three characteristics is not enough and that > the person has not experienced Nibbana when they do see these > characteristics. Why? Because that person who only has seen the three > characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what > these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding > the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are > referring to! ================ Seeing into the Tilakkhana is synonymous with seeing into conditionality, they are intimately connected. I do think some meditation technique exponents have a limited understanding of this and actually mistake thinking about anatta, dukkha as being direct experience. http://www.vipassana.info/j.htm#277279 As it says in the Dhammapada: Verse 277. "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha,(i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. Verse 278. "All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. ============================= And the insight gained into the true nature of the links > of dependent origination are the insights that do lead to Nibbana. These > are truly the deepest insights a person can have. Venerable Sariputta > became a sotapanna by just hearing in a general way about dependent > origination. Doesn't that say something about the importance of these > insights and their depth? =========== As I said it is not possible to separate true insight into anatta from insight into conditionality. ========== > > Again I will ask where did you get the idea that Venerable Sariputta > was going into and out of the jhanas while he was fanning the Buddha? I > have never read that at all. I have read that the insights that he got > while fanning the Buddha were that the Buddha wasn't even attached to the > Dhamma and this was the insight that allowed Venerable Sariputta to let > go and then he became an arahat. I have never read that Venerable > Sariputta was experiencing the jhanas while this occurred. And of course, > if it did happen this way, I have never heard of it, it may be somewhere > in the suttas but I never ran across it. Could you please show me where > this is found? =========== It is in the Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha. If you have Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya he gives a short note (1046) p1315 about Anupadadhammavipassana. The commentary explains that sariputta attained arahantship while fanning the Buddha and listening to the Buddha teach venerable Dighanaka. The Anupada sutta is actually explaining the way Sariputta attained during this time. As we see he attained the various rupa and arupa jhanas but was so skilled in vipassana that he could understand the different mental factors in jhana by insight after coming out of each jhana.?@"He emerged mindful from that attainment. having doen so he contemplated the past states, which had ceased and changed thus: So indedd these states not having been come into being; having been they vanish" Sometimes the suttas are terse and do not always mention that one must have left the jhana before such insght can arise. It is assumed the listener knows this. In the visuddhimagga there are explanations of just how fast one who has mastery of jhana is with regard to entering and exiting. Once mara tried to rain embers on the Giribhandavahana offering and a monk so quickly entered 4th jhana and made a covering to protect everyone before the embers could touch. Visuddhimagga X11, 10. Thus Sariputta was fanning the Buddha, listening to dhamma, entering and exiting variious jhanas, and developing insight culminating in arahantship, all in the space of a few minutes. He had the parami to do this. With respect Robertk 38588 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hello Larry, Howard, and all > I disagree. Aversion is not desire. Aversion (dosa) is dukkha, the > truth of suffering. Part of the logic of desire is aversion to a > state of want and part of the logic of aversion is desire for > deliverance from the unpleasant feeling of aversion. This is a matter > of logic and reasoning, whatever that is. There is an intimate > relation between aversion and desire but they are not the same. Today in a small notebook I carry around I found "you cannot possibly have aversion if you don't have attachment". Probably from one of Nina's books. We know that.there cannot be aversion rooted cittas without delusion (moha) rooted cittas. But I think the "you cannot possibly have aversion without attachment" might be referring to the way aversion derives from our attachment to certain states. I think of calm. Today walking in the park, there was a loudspeaker that annoyed me. That's because I am so attached to the notion of having peace and quiet in the park. That lobha was behind the aversion. If I weren't attached to peace and quiet, I wouldn't be so averse to noise. There's not that much that is intrinsically irritating about a noisy loudspeaker. It is our desire for peace and quiet that brings about the aversion in this case? Last week I posted about the man I thought was making a tooth-sucking sound on the train. In that case my aversion was clearly rooted in ignorance because the sound was something entirely different but also there was attachment involved because I wanted my peace and quiet on the train. Tonight I was cranky with my wife about having to wash the dishes because I am tired after a long day. Does my aversion to being tired comes from attachment to feeling energetic? I wonder how much intrinsic unpleasantness there is in being tired and how much of my aversion simply comes from attachment to feeling perky? I wonder how much intrinsic suffering there is in having a cold, and how much of the aversion comes from attachment to feeling energetic and healthy? Just some sleepy thoughts. Metta, Phil . 38589 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Venerable Bhante and dear Htoo, Many points are raised by Htoo but I want to touch on just a few points, with respect. I shall not say much on D.O. because this can only be understood when one clearly understands dhamma at this very moment and I do not. op 20-11-2004 21:24 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo:quotes Bhante: When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true > eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual > knowledge at all. N:Only magga-citta eradicates, and it directly experiences nibbana, there is no thinking, no intellectual knowledge. Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process. That is the meaning of without delay, akaalika. Phala-citta does not eradicate defilements, because these have been eradicated already in accordance with the stage of enlightenment (there are four stages) at the moment of magga-citta. > Bhante quote: > > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This makes much sense. N: This is not a new teaching, it is explained by Buddhaghosa in the commentaries which were also rehearsed at the Councils, from the first Council on. A very ancient teaching. Here some Pali can help. Jayati: it can mean: contemplating and also burning away, but this is from another stem. The Buddha said: meditate (or contemplate), here are the roots of the trees. The Commentary then gives the explanation of the two meanings of jhana (from jhayati). The teaching of insight was exclusively ther Buddha's teaching, but rupa-jhana and arupajhana was also taught by other teachers. The suttas often refer to the second meaning of jhana, contemplating or realizing the three characteristics. Kindred Sayings III, Middle Fifty, Ch 4, §88, Assaji. Assaji was too sick to develop mindfulness of breathing and attain jhana. The Buddha asked him: Is body permanent or impermanent? He asked the same as to the other khandhas. We read: Thus, one can attain arahatship with this understanding. We read time and again that the Buddha referred to the three characteristics which have to be realized. Dear Htoo, you speak about citta nyama, the natural course of the order of cittas, not even a Buddha can change. I am always glad to hear this, it gives me a happy feeling. The Buddha himself paid respect to the Dhamma, this is in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes (III, 14, Wheel 155-158,transl. by Ven. Nyanaponika), Dhamma, the coregent. A simile is used of a world ruler who relies on the Law of righteousness, the dhamma. Htoo explained that no words are needed when there is insight. I think that a definition of pañña may not help enough. We first have to know what ignorance is: avijja, the first link of the DO. It does not know the true nature of what appears now, like seeing, hearing or thinking. We see people and take them for persons who are lasting. Seeing sees visible object that falls away immediately, that is impermanent. Pañña understands what appears now and no words are needed. It has to be gradually developed so that it becomes one's own understanding. One does not have to follow someone else. What does pañña understand? Any dhamma appearing now, like seeing, hearing, etc. The suttas are full of this. Perhaps the word vipassana is not used as often as jhana, but, satipatthana is implied in each and every sutta. Satipatthana is the development of understanding of nama and rupa. As Bhante says: calm and insight are together. Whenever the Buddha speaks about jhana also satipatthana is implied. Moreover, when insight penetrates the three characteristics of realities, there is momentary concentration, khanika samadhi. When nibbana is experienced the concentration is as strong as the first jhana. Concentration is a factor of the eightfold Path, but it has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path. May the light of pañña illumonate the present object and pierce through the black curtain of ignorance, with respect and all good wishes, Nina. 38590 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 20-11-2004 20:28 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > When you listen to beautiful music(1) like (lobha) arises with > pleasant feeling.... snip, snip (I agree). > L: This is not the case with want (lobha). Like and want are completely > different. N: I see it different. They are shades of lobha cetasika. But we may use the word want in a different sense. I see wanting as wishing to have something. L: Even if we are starving want is not > unpleasant. Is this how you understand your experience? N: It does not ring a bell! > ------------------------- > Note 1. What is beautiful varies from person to person and time to > time and depends on what we like. N: Some things are intrinsically pleasant, but see previous discussions, also with Rob M. L: Note 2. Notice I am not saying relaxation itself is a > feeling. "Feeling" is a word that can refer to either nama or rupa. N: Feeling is always nama, it experiences something. L: Body-door consciousness feels hardness with unpleasant feeling. N: It depends on the degree of hardness. Hard to tell, very often we do not know. it is only one moment of vipakacitta. L:Body-door consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling cognizes the > rupa that is conventionally called relaxation of the body. N: Body-door consciousness can only experience tangivle object, not feeling. It is best not to mix in conventional terms. > L: Note 4. Some contractions of the body are kamma produced, temperature > produced, or nutriment produced. When we are truly hungry there is > insufficient nutriment and one of these means of production produces > bodily contractions that are cognized with body-door consciousness > accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Dependent on that, desire arises. > Sometimes, when we want something badly enough, consciousness > produced contractions arise that are very similar to the contractions > of hunger. These contractions arise _after_ the desire. Contractions > can be very tiring. That is why when we travel we become unusually > tired. We want to go. N: I have trouble with these examples. Conventional terms confuse me when talking about body-consciousness that can experience rupas. I feel it is better to be aware without naming and reasoning. Nina. 38591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, op 21-11-2004 02:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Hi Htoo, > > How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense > to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that > mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? If so, wouldn't that > mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations > (ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? N: All wholesome and unwholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment. Javana citta and each citta falls away to be succeeded by the next one. All accumulations of all lives are contained in each citta. Why are we born with different characters, different inclinations, different tendencies? Because of this condition that is natural strong dependence condition. When we are angry, the anger falls away with the citta, but anger continues as a latent tendency. If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta. Nina. 38592 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi TG and Howard, Sure, when we have unpleasant feeling or experience an unpleasant object craving arises which wants unhappiness to stop. It is conditioned by unhappiness, but not accompanied by it at the same time. op 20-11-2004 21:16 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: Howard: > This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > (or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see it, > aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. T.G; I agree. In the 12 Fold Chain, the Buddha talks about the three types of > feelings and says they are a condition for three types of cravings. As far as > I'm concerned it works this way... snip... > 2) If there is an unpleasurable feeling, craving for the "discontinuance" of > that unpleasurableness arises. > (This is normally considered the craving for non-Being...but I see it as more > fundamentally -- the craving for the "non-being" or discontinuance of > unpleasurableness. 38593 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi RobM My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether people outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless acts (that is quite true :) during our time). So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can also be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not associated with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise without any association with panna. > Clearly, one is not going to progress spiritually without > performing deeds from the bhavana group. In fact, humans and lower devas with life-continuum mental states with two roots (no panna root), cannot achive jhana or sotapanna stage; they can perform deeds from the bhavana group, but they will not achieve jhana or sotapanna. Thats great - I hope Dan D saw you statement there :) Ken O p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. 38594 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Andrew and all - In a message dated 11/21/04 3:18:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > > Dear Group > > I would like to share with you the following quotation from Bhikkhu > Bodhi's Introduction to his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and > its Commentaries - The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1992 reprint > p. 6): > > "... Views proceed from ignorance and blindness rather than from > knowledge. They involve misinterpretations of experience stemming > from subjective distortions of the actual experiential data. > ... > All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two > sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great > number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of > meditative attainments has significant implications for our > understanding of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. > It suffices to caution us against the hasty generalization that > speculative views take rise through a preference for theorisation > over the more arduous task of practice. As our sutta shows, many of > these views make their appearance only at the end of a prolonged > course of meditation involving firm renunciation, intense devotion > and keen contemplative zeal. For these views, the very basis of > their formulation is a higher experience rather than the absence of > one. That views of a metaphysical nature result from such endeavours > indicates that they spring from a source more deeply grounded in the > human mind even than the disposition to theorization. This source is > the clinging to being ..." > > With best wishes > Andrew > > ============================ So, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, almost correctly, I believe "All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and meditative experience." What he didn't mention were the other sources given in the Kalama Sutta such as the following: reports and legends, logical conjecture and analogical inference, scripture and authority. But putting these additional items aside, and putting aside that scripture and authority include both Sutta Pitaka, Abhidhamma, the commentaries, and all other records and interpretations of the Buddha's teaching (!), and just considering what Bhikkhu Bodhi gave, namely reasoning and meditative experience, I would like to ask the good folks here what they intend to give up, meditating or thinking or both!! ;-) With metta, Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38595 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi, Robert (and Bhante) - In a message dated 11/21/04 6:40:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > It is in the Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha. If you have Bhikku Bodhi's > translation of the Majjhima Nikaya he gives a short note (1046) > p1315 about Anupadadhammavipassana. The commentary explains that > sariputta attained arahantship while fanning the Buddha and > listening to the Buddha teach venerable Dighanaka. > The Anupada sutta is actually explaining the way Sariputta attained > during this time. As we see he attained the various rupa and arupa > jhanas but was so skilled in vipassana that he could understand the > different mental factors in jhana by insight after coming out of > each jhana.?@"He emerged mindful from that attainment. having doen > so he contemplated the past states, which had ceased and changed > thus: So indedd these states not having been come into being; having > been they vanish" > ========================= Robert, the attempted solution you are giving here is interesting, but the above quote you give in support of it is a bit problematical, because that material is given in the Anupada Sutta only with regard to the 8th and 9th jhanas, jhanas in which invesigation of dhammas is likely impossible. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38596 From: Ken O Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi Andrew and Howard That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not notice, even before he practise mindulness <>, so there is already a certain level of training of this monks, because they are already established in mindfullness. Then after that <> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) Ken O 38597 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/21/04 9:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi TG and Howard, > Sure, when we have unpleasant feeling or experience an unpleasant object > craving arises which wants unhappiness to stop. It is conditioned by > unhappiness, but not accompanied by it at the same time. > op 20-11-2004 21:16 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Howard: > >This perplexes me. Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by > >(or followed by) aversion. That aversion is desire for absence. As I see > it, > >aversion is a form of tanha. When the Buddha gives tanha as condition for > >dukkha in the statement of 2nd noble truth, he surely includes aversion. > > ===================== When I wrote "Unpleasant bodily feeling is usually accompanied by (or followed by) aversion," I actually personally believed "is followed by" to be correct, but I put that in parentheses and emphasized "accompanied by," which I did not believe to actually be the case, because of fear that there were likely others here who would disagree with "is followed by," and that would create a distraction that would sidetrack the discussion from my main point that aversion is a species of tanha. In retrospect, I should have been more honest in my presentation. Pragmatics should not supersede truthfulness. My apologies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38598 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Ken (and Andrew) - In a message dated 11/21/04 10:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Andrew and Howard > > That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between > them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention > of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment > conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, > there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not > notice, even before he practise mindulness < and setting mindfulness to the fore>>, so there is already a certain > level of training of this monks, because they are already established > in mindfullness. Then after that < that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that > he is breathing out long.>> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a > clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. > So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati > and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There > is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, > but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen > as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) > > > > Ken O > ======================= Well, of course, what I wrote was largely tongue-in-cheek. It is indeed a fact that all sorts of experience, including all the items I mentioned in my post, are subject to misinterpretation due to our defilements. If we were to take that fact to be all-determinative, then we would just give up! Certainly the Buddha didn't recommend that. We must begin where we are, mired in delusion, and with many, many false starts, and many sidetrips down wrong paths, we, by long and determined effort, will return to the main road, and progress on our journey. One additional point: The aspect of meditation that lends itself most to misinterpretation and wrong views (though the Dhamma, and wise friends, can protect against such misinterpretation), is traditional, pre-Buddhist absorptive meditation. It would be easy, for example, for one to derive belief in Brahman/atman from the bases of infinite space and infinite consciousness, and, especially, from a shuttling between the 2nd jhana and these, for then one experiences what could be taken to be infinite being, consciousness, and joy, and one could develop the Vedantic view of "Satchitananda" (an ultimate reality that is describable as pure being, consciousness, and joy - Nirguna Brahman). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38599 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Dan D I have read the two suttas, and in the suttas, Buddha said right view of two folds, one that is mundane and the other supramundane. I did not see him mentioning that about conceptual right view. I also read the introduction by Ven B Bodhi, he used the word conceptual right view - that is his view and not what Buddha says in sutta and also not in any Abhidhamma Text that I have read. To me there are only two kind of right views. The questions is whether listening and studying are developing mundane right view. One sutta quote will make this clearer MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta) <> Ken O p.s. I always careful in reading Ven B Bodhi translation as at times he does put his personal opinion 38600 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations N: All wholesome and unwholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment. Javana citta and each citta falls away to be succeeded by the next one. All accumulations of all lives are contained in each citta. Why are we born with different characters, different inclinations, different tendencies? Because of this condition that is natural strong dependence condition. When we are angry, the anger falls away with the citta, but anger continues as a latent tendency. If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Thanks for your explanation to Larry. All are clear. The wheel tracks always follow the footprints of animals who carry the cart. Like that any citta is followed by invisible, latent tendencies that are accumulated from former and former citta as upanissaya paccaya. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38601 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, This is the second installment from my book it is a sutta that explains exactly what dependent origination is. Please remember that in the first installment I said that the way to get off of the wheel of samsara is by recognizing the Cause of suffering which is Craving. Craving always shows itself as a subtle tightness or tension that arises in both the mind and body. Snip..out all.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, As before you copy and paste the whole mass without explaining anything. Can the whole mass be seen at the time of magga cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Paticcasamuppada 1. avijjaa paccayaa ---> sankharaa 2. sankhara paccayaa ---> vinnanaa 3. vinnana paccayaa ---> nama-rupam 4. nama-rupa paccayaa ---> sallaayatanaa 5. sallaayatana paccaya--> phasso 6. phassa paccayaa ---> vedanaa 7. vedana paccayaa ---> tanhaa 8. tanha paccayaa ---> upadana 9. upadana paccayaa ---> bhavo 10. bhava paccayaa ---> jaati 11. jaati paccaya --->[soka,parideva,dukkha,domanassa,upayasa] 12. jara/ marana If a deva is born right now and dies now, there is no time to get old like description for human beings' oldness like gray hair, loosening teeth, laxed skin etc etc. DO is not confined to human realm. DO is concerned with anyone. In numder 12 link, jara as you describe does not work for other cases. But jara does occur. More surer is death. After birth, death is ready. Sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, mental pain, despair, separation suffering, association suffering, unobtainability suffering are not ekam dhamma or not inevitable dhamma to happen. Leaving infanthood, there are some who never cry out loud. These dukkha are anekam dhamma. These are not inevitable things. But death is inevitable. 1. avijja nirodho ---> sankharaa nirodho 2. ,,,, pa,,,,pa,,,,pa,,,pa,,, ...12. nirodho. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38602 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:07am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 54 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (a) Sarah wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)] ***** Saññå, which can be translated as perception, recognition or remembrance, is another cetasika among the seven `universals' which accompany every citta. Saññå accompanies every citta, ..snip...carpenter recognizes a piece of wood which he has marked by .specialized knowledge… *** (1) In Påli: sañjånåti, cognizing well. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No question for this piece. No comment for this piece as it is already perfect. There is no other view as I think we are holding the same view. Sanna is important and it is preached as a separate khandha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38603 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Nina, Just two comments. N: "N: Feeling is always nama, it experiences something." L: What I had in mind is that the word "feeling" can mean touching or vedana. This can be confusing when talking about body-door experience. Similarly, the word "taste" can be a noun or verb, one sense referring to a rupa and the other case referring to taste consciousness (taste a taste). N: "I have trouble with these examples. Conventional terms confuse me when talking about body-consciousness that can experience rupas. I feel it is better to be aware without naming and reasoning." L: I agree it is better to just be aware but I think you can bring your own experience into the discussion even if it can't be fully articulated. Otherwise these concepts have no meaning. Larry 38604 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Nina wrote: Venerable Bhante and dear Htoo, Many points are raised by Htoo but I want to touch on just a few points,with respect. I shall not say much on D.O. because this can only be understood when one clearly understands dhamma at this very moment and I do not. op 20-11-2004 21:24 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo:quotes Bhante: > When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true > > eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual > > knowledge at all. N:Only magga-citta eradicates, and it directly experiences nibbana, there is no thinking, no intellectual knowledge. Fruition- consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process. ..snip.. ..Dear Htoo, you speak about citta nyama, the natural course of the order of cittas, not even a Buddha can change. I am always glad to hear this, it gives me a happy feeling. The Buddha himself paid respect to the Dhamma,this is in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes (III, 14, Wheel 155-158,transl. by Ven. Nyanaponika), Dhamma, the coregent. ..snip.. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, Nina and All, The Buddha is the Supreme One. Who would The Buddha worship? No one. But there is a mudra called dhammapujaa mudra. The Buddha is holding his palms together making lotus in the worshipping position. This is to reveal how The Dhamma should be taken. Cittas happen according to citta niyama and even The Buddha cannot change this niyama. :-) Once I read at a Group saying that 'The Buddha can control rupa'. :-) I felt strange to see such a message. Even at the time of yamaka patihariya, The Buddha is not controling anything at all. To show up water and fire at the same time needs to change water kasina and fire kasina to and fro. In between these changing The Buddha takes 2 bhavanga cittas. Even Moggallana cannot do such a fast speed. No savaka can excel The Buddha. As The Buddha is in jhana, jhana cittaja rupas arise. This is not controlling at all. If they can be controlled then they are not anatta at least for The Buddha. But this is not the case. There is no exception. When Mara approached The Buddha and asked for releasing of Ayusankhara ( that is Mara advised The Buddha it was the time that The Buddha should die ), The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer even aeons. But Ananda did not give any comment or ask The Buddha to live long. The Buddha told Mara, it was time. Even if The Buddha stayed longer than lifespan permitted, citta niyama never goes wrong. With respect, Htoo Naing 38605 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Nina, N: "If there were no accumulation how could there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta." L: I am not saying there are no accumulations. I am just saying accumulations are memory, habit, concept. There is no "reality" called accumulation. If you want to find accumulation in citta process you have to look at tadarammana and votthapana cittas. The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. The functioning of these two cittas depends heavily (but not solely) on sanna cetasika. Larry 38606 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your answers. I don't see how dream images are not memories or how dream javanas are not memories. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, memories have to be define here. Dream images are pannatta. Dream javanas are cittas. Both are not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: What is a memory? If sanna remembers a sign (nimitta), then that sign is a memory, isn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. It is not. Nimitta or sign is nimitta panatta and it is concept. Not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If sanna perceives signs then sanna perceives concepts. Isn't this the same as saying sanna creates (conditions) concepts? Isn't a dream image a sign remembered by sanna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Sanna does not create any concept. But sanna can cognises concept as concept. Yes. A dream image is a sign remembered by sanna. But dream is not memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: How can javana cittas accumulate? They are impermanent. It makes sense to me that javana cittas are remembered or become habitual. Doesn't that mean that javana cittas accumulate as concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina has explained this. Thanks Nina. No javana cittas do not accumulate concepts but other latencies. Concept is not an ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If so, wouldn't that mean that all javana cittas that are conditioned by accumulations(ayuhana) are conditioned by concepts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not that case. Not all javana cittas. But some javana cittas can be conditioned by concepts in the way of arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: If concept is not dukkha then dream is nibbana. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Concept is not dukkha. And concept is not nibbana. And dream is not nibbana. Pannatta does not arise. Nibbana does not arise. Pannatta does not fall away. Nibbana does not fall away. But nibbana exists while pannatta does not exist from the start. Pannatta is not an ultimate reality. But nibbana is an ultimate reality. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38607 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00am Subject: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, I've been thinking that concept is dukkha as long as it is an object of desire. Desire is the cause of dukkha. So whatever causes desire is dukkha and, as object, concept causes desire by object condition. What do you think? Larry 38608 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams Hi Htoo, What is memory? If you say there is no memory then you are saying memory is concept. Dream is concept. Memory is concept. Dream is memory. Larry 38609 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 130 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 25 beautiful mental factors or 25 sobhana cetasikas. Among them 19 cetasikas are called sabbaasobhana sadharana cetasikas or universal beautiful cetasikas because these 19 cetasikas always arise with each and every of sobhana cittas which are 59 or 91. 59 sobhana cittas are 24 kama sobhana cittas, 15 rupa sobhana cittas, 12 arupa sobhana cittas, and 8 lokuttara sobhana cittas altogether 24 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 59 in case of 89 total cittas. If cittas are calculated as 121 cittas because of jhanas then 24 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 91 cittas of 121 cittas are sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. All these cittas are always accompanied by 19 cetasikas and these 19 cetasikas are called sabbaa sobhana citta sadharana cetasikas. In cetasika portion these 19 cittas are presented as 2 forces of the king citta after making saddha cetasika as in charge of both forces. To repeat, in arm force saddha is general, sati is secretary, hiri and ottappa are right and left wing leiutinant-general and 6 cetasikas for citta namely cittapassaddhi, cittalahuta, cittamuduta, cittakammannata, cittapagunnata, and cittujukata are soldiers of the arm force. In navy again saddha is the admiral, tatramajjhattata is secretary, alobha and adosa are right and left wing rear-admiral and 6 cetasikas of all associated cetasikas namely kayapassaddhi, kayalahuta, kayamuduta, kayakammannata, kayapagunnata, and kayujikata are all followers. These 2 forces always guard the king sobhana cittas ( 59 or 91 cittas ). That is 19 cetasikas always arise each and every of these 59 sobhana cittas or 91 sobhana cittas. If any component of these 19 cetasikas is left out then other cetasikas cannot arise and sobhana cittas do not arise. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38610 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:16am Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I've been thinking that concept is dukkha as long as it is an object > of desire. Desire is the cause of dukkha. So whatever causes desire > is dukkha and, as object, concept causes desire by object condition. > What do you think? > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Concept or pannatta is not dukkha. Dukkha is citta. Dukkha is cetasika. Dukkha is rupa. All conditioned dhamma are dukkha. Actually cittas that see pannatta as their object is dukkha. Pannatta itself is not dukkha at all as it does not exist as ultimate reality. Desire is strictly speaking not dukkha as it is not dukkha sacca but it is samudaya sacca. Desire is the cause of dukkha, yes, this is right. But pannatta even though it may cause desire is not dukkha. Dukkha reside in citta with desire. I will repeat citta is dukkha, cetasika is dukkha, rupa is dukkha [some exceptions: magga cittas and phala cittas are not dukkha as are their accompanying cetasikas]. But pannatta is not dukkha. Nibbana is not dukkha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38611 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,114, dreams --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > What is memory? If you say there is no memory then you are saying > memory is concept. Dream is concept. Memory is concept. Dream is > memory. > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, I said we need to define memory. Memory that I told you is conventional word that we understand. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38612 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi. For now I am mostly just reading as I am traveling with very little time to respond. But concerning perspective, I just wanted to add here: Yes. Stepping back into the "Impersonal ( Anatta) Perspective" changes everything and panna begins to more rapidly develop! Leaving the I,ME,MY, MINE view behind! Embracing the absence of the "personal" ........ :-) KK ericlonline wrote: Hey Sarah, E> Please consider this. Hold to the 'I AM' thought/feeling. > You will see what you are not as juxtaposed to this > I AM. Relaxing and insight will come of its own accord > as you will easily quit grasping at objects. .... S> Who is or is not juxtaposed to anything and who will quit grasping here? I Only then can the conceit I AM dissolve as it will be seen that it is superflous. PEACE E 38613 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, May I butt in here. With much respect, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Also, because the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta14 (4) Ascetics and Brahmins of the Samyutta Nikaya) and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please provide the original Pali and their meanings? *************** Bhante: If you would read this sutta closely you would be able to see that I did paraphrase the above statement. But this meaning is very clear in this sutta. If you want the original Pali may I ask you to look them up for yourself as I have very few resources with Pali texts and I live in the forests of Missouri, so getting these is somewhat difficult. But I am sure you have the resources and time to look them up for yourself. ****************** May I ask 'what are the links of D.O'? *************** Bhante: I have sent the sutta that describes all of the links. Please look at that for the definitions. ______________________ May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ****************** Bhante From a meditators view no they do not happen all in a single moment they arise and pass away very rapidly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: the Buddha went on to say that if one does not see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent origination, they will not attain Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Which part of the Sutta say these? *************** In the sutta 14 (4) SN it says and I will quote this from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: "They do not understand aging-and-death, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to the cessation..... These I do not consider to be ascetics among ascetics or Brahmins among Brahmins, and these venerable ones DO NOT, by realizing it for themselves with direct knowledge, in this very life enter and dwell in the goal of asceticism or the goal of Brahminhood {Nibbana}. This very plainly says that the realization and understanding of the links of dependent origination through the Noble Truths is the necessary observations to attain the highest goal Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So to me the seeing of the three characteristics by themselves doesn't lead to deep understanding or Nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is difference. Seeing of tilakkhana is done by kamavacara mahakusala cittas while seeing of nibbana is done my magga cittas and phala cittas. Seeing tilakkhana does lead to Nibbana. No one saw tilakkhana before arising of The Buddha. The Buddha first saw it and this led Him to Nibbana. ************** Yes, it is important to see these three characteristics but in the context of the arising and passing away of the links of dependent origination. Not just by themselves. And as far as seeing impermanence there have been many western philosophers who have had that insight. Like never being able to step in the same river twice. Which was observed at roughly the same time as when the Buddha was living. But this insight about impermanence is not by itself enough to bring the deeper understanding of dependent origination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Why? Because that is what the Buddha said and through direct experience of seeing these three characteristics alone, is not enough to actually experience the deepest kinds of insights. (in my opinion). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not enough? ********* Bhante: Because one doesn't see the links of dependent origination if they are only looking at the characteristics and this is why these insights into anicca, dukkha, and anatta by themselves are NOT deep enough to gain true understanding of existence. The process of D.O. must be seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Now lets take a look at the Bodhisatta's meditation experiences before he became awakened. He practiced with two different meditation teachers who were teaching forms of one-pointed absorption concentration and the Buddha did experience the realms of Nothingness and the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. But he was not satisfied with these types of absorption attainments. Why? Because he felt that they did not lead to the final release from the wheel of samsara. These teachers taught the Bodhisatta absorption concentration because that was all that was known at that time. So the Bodhisatta went off by himself to investigate and experiment for himself. At that time he was already one of the most advanced meditators in the area. Now what could he have seen that wasn't leading to the final release from samsara? He spent much time thinking and pondering on aging-and-death (taken from #10 (10) Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage in the Samyutta Nikaya). "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: 'Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and it is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death. When now will an escape be discerned from this suffering [headed by] aging-and-death?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who see D.O? ***** Bhante: The process of D.O. sees it. Just before nibbana occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: "Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: 'When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on Paticcasamuppada for a week. But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara mahakiriya cittas. Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha could not abolish the citta niyama. ****** Bhante: This may or may not be true. AND the bodhisatta did through direct experience see the impersonal process of dependent origination many, many times, before Nibbana actually arose. Craving runs deep and seeing this process and realizing it is not a matter of mere "contemplation". Only after gaining the deep understanding of D.O. did the conditions arise for Nibbana to occur. The Buddha did review D.O. for one week after his supreme enlightenment and (this is my opinion) with the clearest mind possible he wanted to see for himself the finest details of how D.O. arose and passed away. In this way he would be able to explain it clearly. It is a very fascinating and wonderful thing to observe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was any flaw. Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** Bhante: Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the Buddha (bodhisatta) thought the Dhamma was wrong. I meant to say that he did check out his insights for their correctness and deep understanding. Please remember that he was still only a bodhisatta when he did this and he wanted to make sure that it was exactly correct from his own experience. He saw that every moment had these links arise and pass away very rapidly. To make sure that his insight was correct is what he was doing. And by the way this is what he encouraged everyone to do. It is only through direct experience that concepts can become realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ********* An interesting question. And the answer is yes. Every time dependent origination arises and passes away it is a literal birth and death. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: as he did this he came to realize just how important these insights (deep understandings) were. Now let us take a look at the second discourse given by the Buddha (to the 5 ascetics) it has to do with seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is true. But when looked at through the eyes of dependent origination, Why did the Buddha give this discourse at that time? Because even though these 5 Ascetics were already sotapannas they needed to look more deeply at "HOW" the impersonal nature of dependent origination actually arose and passed away - by seeing these characteristics in every link of D.O. they finally understood deeply enough to truly understand this process directly for themselves. In the later years until today too many people just take a surface look at this sutta and think that it is only this insight by itself that leads to nibbana. But it has to be seen through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. in order to have the clear understanding of HOW the true nature of all existence actually works. When you quoted this: ""The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassananana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (magganana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena -- impermanence, suffering and non-self. [1] It takes as its objective sphere the five aggregates (pancakkhandha) -- material form, feeling perception, mental formations and consciousness. Because insight knowledge takes the world of conditioned formations as its object, it is regarded as a mundane form of wisdom. Insight knowledge does not itself directly eradicate the defilements, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This must be other way. ***** Bhante: I was.quoting what was said to me and you very conveniently skipped what I said after this. Please stop doing this. It can cause many misunderstandings and confusion! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: The below statement is again taken out of context this is what someone else said to me. Please stop this! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Questioner: "Actually this is what was said by someone else", but serves to prepare the way for the second type of wisdom,the wisdom of the supramundane paths, which emerges when insight has been brought to its climax. The wisdom of the path, occurring in four distinct stages ( to be discussed below ), simultaneously realizes Nibbana, fathoms the Four Noble Truths, and cuts off the defilements. This wisdom is called "supramundane" because it rises up from the world of the five aggregates to realize the state transcendent to the world, Nibbana." *********** Bhante: And this is my reply: This is taken from commentarial works, and doesn't necessarily agree with the information in the suttas, especially the suttas having to do with D.O. As you can see for yourself there is no mention of the links of dependent origination or the insights into "HOW" they arise and "HOW" they cease. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ****** Bhante: Yes and often or until one understands it completely. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Again, this is what the Buddha talked about in well over a hundred suttas, so we must take it to mean that this is reasonably important and must be understood before the real enlightenment can possibly arise. The way to eradicate defilements is through truly seeing the impersonal nature of all existence through the eyes of the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. there is no other way. The theory above sounds good but it does not agree with the information in the suttas. When you said: "Therefore, my understanding is that the fruit of arahatship is the eradication of the defilements. And, the Anupada Sutta states that Sariputta eradicated his defilements, if the translation I have is correct:" The answer to this is much simpler than what you may suspect. When the Path (magga) arise it is very much like having an intellectual understanding. One knows and has strong confidence in the experience of what had happened. And the latent tendencies are still alive and well. When one has the fruition (phala) arise there is the true eradication and deep knowing without having to use intellectual knowledge at all. It is kind of like one scene in the Movie "The Matrix" where they were first beginning to learn the Martial Arts. The teacher said not think how fast you want to be - know it. That is very much like the differences between the Path knowledge and the Fruition knowledge. When you said " I don't understand how it is possible to have absorption of an immaterial sphere and to also be mindful of material reality." This will come from your direct experience when your meditation gets deep enough. And with the practice of Tranquility meditation or sutta instructions there is no deep absorption, instead there is a seeing of the impersonal process of D.O. and this kind of understanding leads directly to the cessation of suffering. It does take an alert mind that is fluid to be able to do this. A mind that is absorbed into and stays on only one object cannot possibly be able to see deeply the impersonal processes that arise and pass away. Next you said: "It would seem that that person would almost need two minds, or to switch back and forth somehow. Not only that, the Buddha spoke about how attaining the immaterial jhanas would result in rebirth in those spheres if the taints weren't destroyed. This also leads me to believe that the immaterial jhanas require a sort of attachment to them to be achieved, which is contrary to the way you describe them." And this is where the true differences between the 2 different types of jhana make themselves shown. Every insight into the true nature of dependent origination helps one to realize the impersonal nature of every phenomena that arises. And by the way, this deep understanding is how the meditator goes from one jhana to the next. When one's mind has seen and understood what they have seen of Dependent origination mind will go deeper and the insights become more refined. But with the one-pointed absorption concentration the meditator is bringing back that tightness or tension to their meditation object, and if you will remember I said that this tightness or tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are physical phenomena. They are not equal. They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. They are visaya rupa. Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation this is wrong. Craving does not equal to headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ************** Bhante: Actually what I have repeatedly have said is the tightness or tension arises in both mind and body and this is "HOW" craving is recognized. So what you are saying doesn't apply to what I have stated. And again tightness or tension does not equal a headache. It just means exactly what I have said it is a tightness or tension and it is subtle. Not gross like a headache. Please understand this and stop saying that I am in any way inferring that this tightness or tension is anything other than subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. But related to lobha. Lobha and dosa never arise together. ******** Bhante: I have never said that they did. I am only describing what craving is in real terms and "HOW" to recognize it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics. Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where does it describe it in the suttas? ********* Bhante: I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you would look at his writtings you will see this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This makes much sense. In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single object and said to be deeply concentrated. But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to understand. In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is rupavacara rupa jhana. In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. ****** Bhante: this is commentarial and doesn't necessarily agree with the information given in the suttas and vinaya. The problem is this (as I see it) I am trying to clearly describe the kind of jhana that arises when one follows the sutta instructions and you are answering by the use of the commentaries about a completely different type of jhana. Sometimes you might need to, in the spirit of investigation, try the sutta instructions for yourself . By this I mean that, you will see for yourself if you take the time and effort to try the sutta method of instructions. Then only will you be able to truly understand the differences between the absorption jhana and the sutta instructions jhana. In This way you can give a direct experience, educated answer. Otherwise this is a never ending disagreement because I am talking about apples and you are talking about bananas. Yes they are both fruit but that is about all they have in common. And where in the Buddha-Dhamma does it say that samadhi equals appana? This is from another commentary written by Venerable Dhammapala who founded the univerisity that Venerable Buddhgosa studied at in India. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante quote: RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's Teaching?'. Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong fact. Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya nana. ________________ ***** Bhante: This seems to be a case of someone clinging to the commentaries as opposed to someone who is actually taking their information from the suttas and vinaya, then applying it. Doing the investigation for oneself and then telling others about ones experiences and how they agree with the suttas is not necessarily an attachment. If so the Buddha was extremely attached by the standards you talk about above. ____________- Htoo: Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. ***** Bhante: Why does this sound like an opinion rather than a Dhamma fact? Please go to the first few answers about sutta 14 (4) SN for your answer. ----------------------- Htoo: The first 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, dukkha, and anatta. This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the middle way or majjhima patipada. Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any of DO. I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. But now someone clings to D.O. Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? **** Bhante: Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or proper to question me in this way! _____________________ Htoo: For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ********** Bhante: You might add how many commentaries you use as well. Again, I am coming from an experiential background and when I find that if I follow the sutta and vinaya instructions in my meditation and the Suttas and Vinaya agrees completely with what is experienced, then I will take the time and energy to show others this - as the Buddha recommended in the Parinibbana Sutta. If you will remember correctly this is the way to see if the Buddha-Dhamma being taught is true and worth following or not. When the sutta instructions are practiced in this way, then a strong confidence arises that is unshakable. The whole of the Buddha's teachings are present in the suttas and vinaya as a guide to help. Some other commentaries may or may not be correct and this is why it is very necessary to try for yourself before accusing another of some attachments and trying to build yourself up as the example for studying, this shows a great deal of pride and is nothing but a low academic trick to distract, when the accuser sees for themselves that they have attachments and they are being questioned and shown that there are some wrong assumptions that were made. Please stop doing this. It is not helpful or beneficial to you or anyone else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what have not been heard before. What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? That Sutta says the practitioner has to do forward, then backward, then forward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain on these matter rather than talking on headache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: I do forgive you for saying this because you and your pride, won't take the time to investigate for yourself. But "don't" say that again! At least, until you have the direct experience of what I am talking about. Only then will you know if what I am saying is true or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ****** Bhante: Please get a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on this subject it is quite good and does happen to agree with everything that I have so far said. Also this is another way of trying to show off. If you are really interested in this please do it yourself and send it to me then I will give my comments on what you have written. -------------------- This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Repetition is because Suttas were preached to different destination at different time. ----------------- Bhante: Actually repetition is because the Buddha wanted the people who listened to Dhamma to remember it. He could have talked like we do these days without any repetition, but he chose to teach by this method. May you be free from suffering. My palms are together and vow three times to you. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38614 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Robert, When you said "Buddhaghosa has given a commentary on the Anapanasati sutta and I would say it takes clear account of the various factors explained by the Buddha. I cannot see why you don't think so? As for the Visuddhimagga , the detailed traeatment of Dependent origination is beautiful and sublime IMO." ****Bhante The reason is because he was talking about one-pointed absorption concentration and the suttas don't. If you really want to see the difference then try the sutta instructions for a short period of time. ***Robert What I can't see is where you find any shortcomings in the Visuddhmagga or commentaries? Rather than being lacking the commentaries add detail and explicate the pithy sayings in the suttas. *****Bhante Because they really don't agree with the suttas and vinaya. Nowhere in the suttas does it say that Vipassana is one kind of meditation and samadhi is another. In sutta # 149 it bascially says that vipassana and samatha are yoked together. They are experienced at the same time. This is why I see some differences between the sutta/vinaya and the Visuddhi Magga. *****Robert Seeing into the Tilakkhana is synonymous with seeing into conditionality, they are intimately connected. I do think some meditation technique exponents have a limited understanding of this and actually mistake thinking about anatta, dukkha as being direct experience. ***** Bhante Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the Dhamma/vinaya. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38615 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dhamma Greetings Nina, You said "Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta succeeds this immediately in the same process." *Bhante Then How can you explain the sutta below. This is taken from a book that I am currently writing. It does have some explanation in it, that may help. Please forgive the length of this. But it does make what you are saying about Phala questionable. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi #105 Sanakkhata Sutta 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Vesali in the Great Wood Hall with the peaked roof. 2] Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus had declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus: ‘We understand: Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ 3] Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, heard: "A number of bhikkhus, it seems, have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus: ‘We understand: Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being’. "Then Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and said to the Blessed One: 4] "I have heard, venerable sir, that a number of bhikkhus have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One. Did they speak rightly or are there some bhikkhus here who declare final knowledge because they overestimate themselves?" 5] "When those bhikkhus, Sunakkhata, declared final knowledge in my presence, there were some bhikkhus who declare final knowledge rightly and there were some who claimed final knowledge because they over-estimated themselves. Therein, when bhikkhus declare final knowledge because they over-estimate themselves, the Tathagata thinks: ‘I should teach them Dhamma.’ Thus it is in this case , Sunakkhata, that the Tathagata thinks: ‘I should teach them the Dhamma.’ But some misguided man here formulated a question, came to the Tathagata, and ask it. In that case, Sunakkhata, the Tathagata has thought: ‘I should teach them the Dhamma,’ now he changes his mind." 6] "This is the time, Blessed One, this is the time, Sublime One, for the Blessed One, the bhikkhus will remember it." "Then listen, Sunakkhata, and attend closely to what I shall say." "Yes, venerable sir," Sunakkhatta, son of the Licchavis, replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said this: 7] "There are, Sunakkhata, these five cords of sensual pleasure. What are the five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likable, connected with sensual pleasure and provocative of lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Odors cognizable by the nose that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Flavors cognizable by the tongue that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. Tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual pleasures and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. 8] It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on worldly material things. When a person is intent on worldly things, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the imperturbable is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and does not find satisfaction in that. ***** Talk about the imperturbable, is the discussing of the factors and experiences one has while being in the fourth jhana or one of the lower immaterial jhanas. That is the realm of ‘infinite space’, or the realm of ‘infinite consciousness’. The higher realms of ‘nothingness’ and the realm of ‘neither-perception-nor-non-perception’ will be discussed in this sutta. ***** 9] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man had left his own village or town a long time ago, and he were to see another man who had only recently left that village or town. He would ask that man whether the people of that village or town were safe, prosperous and healthy, and that man would tell him whether the people of that village or town were safe, prosperous and healthy. What do you think, Sunakkhata? Would that first man listen to him, give ear, and exert his mind to understand?" -"Yes, venerable sir." - "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some person here may be intent on worldly material things. When a person is intent on worldly material things, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. He should be understood as a person who is intent on worldly material things. ***** Here the Buddha referred to Sunakkhata, because he was a person who was intent on seeing material things like supernormal powers, for example, flying in the air, reading others thoughts or creating fire with the mind or walking on the surface of the water without sinking. To the Buddha these were tricks to show off with and to gain a large following. Psychic powers can be developed but it is very unwise to talk about having them or show other people that these things can be done. Why because they will continually ask to be shown these things and will never try to develop their own mind. The Buddha said that this kind of supernormal power detracted others away from the true practice of working to free themselves from all fetters. In other words, the real practice of meditation is about seeing all of the factors and links of dependent origination for oneself, not showing off to gain a following of "believers". So here the Buddha was talking about material things in a way that Sunakkhata could see the error of his ways and start to do the real practice of overcoming craving and ignorance. ***** 10] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the imperturbable. When a person is intent on the imperturbable, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about worldly material things is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 11] "Just as a yellow leaf has fallen from its stalk is incapable of becoming green again, so too, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the imperturbable he has shed the fetter of worldly things. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of worldly material things who is intent on the imperturbable. 12] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the base of nothingness. When a person is intent on the base of nothingness, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the imperturbable is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 13] "Just as a thick stone that has split in two cannot be joined together again, so to, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the base of nothingness his fetter of the imperturbable has been split. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the imperturbable who is intent on the base of nothingness. 14] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. When a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk of the base of nothingness is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 15] "Suppose a person has eaten some delicious food and thrown it up. What do you think, Sunakkhata? Could that man have any desire to eat that food again?" "No, venerable sir.’ - ‘Why is that?’ - ‘Because that food is considered repulsive’." "So too, Sunakkhata, when a person is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, his fetter of the base of nothingness has been rejected. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of nothingness who is intent on the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. 16] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some person here may be completely intent on Nibbana. When a person is completely intent on Nibbana, only talk concerning that interests him, and his thinking and pondering are in line with that, and he associates with that kind of person, and he finds satisfaction in that. But when talk about the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is going on, he will not listen to it or give ear or exert his mind to understand it. He does not associate with that kind of person, and he does not find satisfaction in that. 17] "Just as a palm tree with its top cut off is incapable of growing again, so too, Sunakkhata, when a person is completely intent on Nibbana, his fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception has been cut off - cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that it is no longer subject to future arising. He should be understood as a person detached from the fetter of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception who is completely intent on Nibbana. 18] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse, the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Since he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana. He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. ***** What does it mean that the meditator might pursue these things? It means that, at that time, this bhikkhu (meditator) does not see the process of dependent origination at all, thus he/she gets caught by craving - the "I like it, I don’t like it, mind" (which can always be seen as a tightness or tension somewhere in the body especially in the head/mind) and then begins to think about the story of why he/she likes or doesn’t like it. This ‘thinking about’ is what clinging actually is, when the bhikkhu (meditator) doesn’t observe the process of "how" these things arise, mind by nature begins to think about many other things and gets caught in restlessness without even being aware of how mind has taken him/her away from the clear observation of dependent origination. ‘Pursuing things’ doesn’t mean that the bhikkhu (meditator) should "ignore", try to push away or try to stop the sight or sound. At that time, the meditator must be aware of ‘how’ ignorance and craving arises and how it manifests in the process of dependent origination. What this is saying is that the bhikkhu (meditator) can/will see, hear, taste, smell, touch, and be with it completely and even enjoy the sight, sound etc. (if the sight, or sound etc. is pleasant) without being ‘attached to it’. What does being attached actually mean? Being attached means that the bhikkhu (meditator) who isn’t aware of "HOW" mind moves, gets caught in ideas, thoughts, concepts, opinions and the story about why they like or dislike, the ideas, opinions and concepts then the meditator begins to take all of these ideas, thoughts, opinions and concepts personally (atta) . Taking things personally means that the meditator is caught in the idea that all thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are ‘I, me, mine’. In other words, the bhikkhu (meditator) at that time, is not seeing the process of ‘HOW’ mind actually works and is caught in the belief that all of these ideas, thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are personal (atta). This false idea that all ideas, thoughts, opinions, concepts and feelings are personal arises in the same moment that craving arises. Craving ALWAYS manifests and arises as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Right after the craving arises the clinging (thinking) pulls mind away from watching what is happening in the present moment and gets lost in concepts and opinions about the craving. This leads to more thoughts, opinions and concepts which pulls mind even further away from the sight or sound or taste or smell or touch. The true understanding of what mindfulness is all about, is being aware of "how" mind moves and keenly observing this movement with a mind that is free from craving and clinging. ***** When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he pursues unsuitable sounds with the ear, he pursues unsuitable odors with the nose, he pursues unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he pursues unsuitable tangibles with the body, he pursues unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering. ***** Here what this sutta is talking about is that a bhikkhu (meditator) thinks he/she has expelled all craving and desire and his/her mind inclines completely on the attainment of Nibbana, so no craving will ever arise again. But this bhikkhu (meditator) has over-estimated his/her experience. So when a sight, sound, odor, taste, touch or thought arises he/she indulges in it thinking "It is alright for me to do this because I am one who is freed from all craving, I am an enlightened one who has completely let go of even the slightest desire. These unsuitable things have no hold on me." When in fact, this bhikkhu (meditator) has not expelled craving but is indulging in it. His/Her mindfulness is not sharp and he/she does not clearly see what his/her mind is doing at that time. This can even happen to an arahat who has experienced the path but has not experienced the fruition of arahatship. For one who has experienced the path only there is still an opportunity for ignorance and craving to arise. ***** 19] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, next he would probe for the arrow with a probe, then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humor, leaving a trace of it behind. Thinking that no trace was left behind, he would say; ‘Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals.’ 20] "The man would think: ‘The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.’ He would eat unsuitable food, and the wound would suppurate. He would not wash the wound from time to time nor would he anoint its opening from time to time, pus and blood would cover the opening of the wound. He would walk around in the wind and sun, then dust and dirt infect the opening of the wound. He would not take care of his wound, nor would he see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is unsuitable and because a trace was left behind the foul poisonous humor was not expelled, the wound would swell, and with its swelling he would incur death or deadly suffering. ***** The Buddha is talking about a person who has attained one of the lower stages of the path [magga] (that is a person who experiences becoming a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or Anagami who have not experienced the fruition of their attainment where the personality changes and begins to let go of things like a belief in a personal self, doubt in the path, a belief that rites and rituals lead one to nibbana, or as in the case of the anagami letting go of lust and hatred. Also this is what the Buddha meant when in the Kitagiri Sutta when he said that there was ‘still work to do with diligence’ ). So if the meditator doesn’t take close care of what can attract mind then they will lose that attainment. This is extremely important to realize! Just because a person has had a very deep spiritual experience such as the attainment of nibbana, they have much work to do. Only after they attain the fruition (phala) of that attainment will there be true knowledge and vision that is unshakable. Even then, if the meditator has not had the experience of the complete cessation of all ignorance [magga] (and became an arahat) and then had the fruition (phala) experience of that attainment, the Buddha said that there is ‘still more work to do with diligence’. From the Buddha’s perspective a person is not completely safe and free until they have become an arahat (and experienced the fruition [phala] of that attainment). In that way, there is no chance for one to experience ‘death or deadly suffering’. ***** 21] "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent upon Nibbana.’ Because he conceives himself thus, though it is contrary to fact, he might pursue things that are unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana. He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. When he pursues the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he pursues unsuitable sounds with the ear, he pursues unsuitable odors with the nose, he pursues unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he pursues unsuitable tangibles with the body, he pursues unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he would incur death or deadly suffering. 22] "For it is death in the Discipline of the Noble Ones, Sunakkhata, when one abandons the training and reverts to the low life; and it is deadly suffering when one commits some defiled offense. 23] "It is possible, Sunakkhata, that some bhikkhu here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust, and ill will. That arrow of craving has been removed from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Being one who really is completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he would not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he would not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he would not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he would not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he would not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. Because he does not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he does not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he does not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he does not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he does not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he does not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust does not invade his mind. Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. ***** This is talking about what a person who has the initial experience of the path (magga) must do in order to experience the fruition (phala) of that attainment. This means that one begins to see exactly "HOW" the process of dependent origination occurs in every experience that arises and passes away (anicca). The pursuing of unsuitable sense pleasures means that even though very pleasing things arise before one of the sense doors, one does not indulge in them or become distracted by them. They see as they actually are only a sight, sound, taste, odor, or tangible. The person who is truly intent on Nibbana does not take pleasure in having these things arise. They do experience these things but by seeing through dependent origination they see these sense objects as simply the arising and passing away of phenomena. When the meditator sees this clearly and doesn’t become infatuated with any sensual pleasures they will be able to see clearly the impermanent nature of everything in existence (anicca). They will be able to see and completely experience the unsatisfactory nature in everything (dukkha) that changes because nothing is ever the same and the fact that everything that arises in both mind and body is impersonal (anatta). Seeing this clearly is understanding through direct experience, that there is nothing but the process of dependent origination continually arising, changing, and fading away (anicca). All things that arise and pass away are conditioned as we see through the deep observation of dependent origination, so how can there be a personal ‘self’ controlling events? This kind of keen observation (dhammavicaya the close investigation of one’s experience. This is an enlightenment factor.) is done all of the time when one is intent on the liberation of mind (nibbana). So seeing and truly understanding things that arise, in this way the meditators mind becomes free from all ignorance, craving, attachments and fetters. ***** 24] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, a man were wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife, next he would probe for the arrow with a probe, then he would pull out the arrow and would expel the poisonous humor without leaving a trace of it behind. Knowing that no trace was left behind, he would say: ‘Good man, the arrow has been pulled out from you; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming you. Eat only suitable food; do not eat unsuitable food or else the wound may suppurate. From time to time wash the wound and from time to time anoint its opening, so that pus and blood do not cover the opening of the wound. Do not walk around in the wind and sun or else dust and dirt may infect the opening of the wound. Take care of your wound, good man, and see to it that the wound heals. 25] "The man would think: ‘The arrow has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor has been expelled with no trace left behind, and it is incapable of harming me.’ He would eat only suitable food, and the wound would not suppurate. From time to time he would wash the wound and from time to time he would anoint its opening, so pus and blood would not cover the opening of the wound. He would take care not to walk around in the wind and sun, so dust and dirt would not infect the wound and he would see to it that the wound heals. Then, both because he does what is suitable and because no trace was left behind when the foul poisonous humor was expelled, the wound would heal, and because it had healed and was covered with skin, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. 26] "So too, Sunakkhata, it is possible that some bhikkhus here might think thus: ‘Craving has been called an arrow by the Great Recluse; the poisonous humor of ignorance is spread about by desire, lust and ill will. That arrow of craving has been pulled out from me; the poisonous humor of ignorance has been expelled. I am one who is completely intent on Nibbana.’ Being one who is completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue those things unsuitable for one completely intent on Nibbana, he would not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he would not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he would not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he would not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he would not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he would not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. Because he does not pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the eye, he does not pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he does not pursue unsuitable odors with the nose, he does not pursue unsuitable flavors with the tongue, he does not pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, he does not pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind, lust does not invade his mind. Because his mind is not invaded by lust, he would not incur death or deadly suffering. 27] "Sunakkhata, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘Wound’ is a term for the six internal sense bases. ‘Poisonous humor’ is a term for ignorance. ‘Arrow’ is a term for craving. ‘Probe’ is a term for mindfulness. ‘Knife’ is a term for noble wisdom. "Surgeon’ is a term for the Tathagata, the Accomplished One, the Fully Enlightened One. ***** Here when the Buddha is talking about the surgeon being the Tathagata he is talking about the description given directly above. In section #19 the surgeon is a teacher other than the Tathagata because he wrongly thought that the wound was free from poison, but it still had some poison in it. If there were a slight bit of poison (clinging/craving) left how would that person be completely free from all ignorance? The meditator who still has a little clinging and craving, at best will experience becoming an Anagami, when they treat the ‘wound’ properly. ***** 28] That bhikkhu, Sunakkhata, is one who practices restraint in the six bases of contact. Having understood that craving is the root of suffering, being craving-less, liberated in the destruction of the craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any craving. 29] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, there were a bronze cup of beverage possessing a good color, smell, and taste, but it was mixed with poison, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhata, would that man drink that cup of beverage, knowing: ‘If I drink this I will incur death or deadly suffering’?" - "No, venerable sir." - "So too, that bhikkhu is one who practices restraint in the six sense bases of contact. Having understood that craving is the root of suffering, being craving-less, liberated in the destruction of craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any craving. 30] "Suppose, Sunakkhata, there was a deadly poisonous snake, and a man came who wanted to live, not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain. What do you think, Sunakkhata, would he give that deadly poisonous snake his hand or thumb, knowing; ‘If I am bitten by him I will incur death or deadly suffering’?" - "No, venerable sir." - "So too, when a bhikkhu practices restraint in the six sense bases of contact, and having understood that craving is the root of suffering, is without craving, liberated by the destruction of craving, it is not possible that he would direct his body or arouse his mind towards any object of craving." That is what the Buddha said. Sunakkhata, son of the Licchavis, was satisfied and delighted in The Blessed One’s words. 38616 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Andrew and all - [snip] > So, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, almost correctly, I believe "All the views > dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two sources, reasoning and > meditative experience." What he didn't mention were the other sources given in > the Kalama Sutta such as the following: reports and legends, logical conjecture > and analogical inference, scripture and authority. But putting these > additional items aside, and putting aside that > scripture and authority include both Sutta Pitaka, Abhidhamma, the > commentaries, and all other records and interpretations of the Buddha's teaching (!), > and just considering what Bhikkhu Bodhi gave, namely reasoning and meditative > experience, I would like to ask the good folks here what they intend to give > up, meditating or thinking or both!! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that > matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) Hi Howard Thanks for your tongue-in-cheek reply. I think your alarm is quite unfounded as I suspect that "reasoning" is some Pali word like "takka" wide enough to encompass the mind's dealing with all those sources and processes you fear have been overlooked. I also don't think BB is suggesting you give up your meditation but just bear in mind that views are not something peculiar to "book-larnin'". I have seen on DSG devout meditators - sometimes with a penchant for eternalism - tell us all to sit down and shut up only later to regale us all with retrospective detail of "what I experienced in my meditation" (i.e. reasoning). And how true to the experience is that reasoning? *That's* the $64,000 question! And if it's *not* true and develops into a wrong view ... well, it's another side alley, isn't it. It's not the real deal, the main game or whatever you want to call the true Dhamma. I'm not telling you here anything you don't already know, just hope you benefited from the reminder (as I did). Best wishes Andrew PS I'm just back from a yoga-type meditation weekend. Don't ask. (-: 38617 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Andrew and Howard > > That is B Bodhi personal opinion. Let us be differentiate between > them. Everything we talk about mediation, there is also the mention > of going to seclusion, under the tree - these are enivornment > conditions :). When it was mention about in mindfullness sutta, > there is always this small little statement a lot of people do not > notice, even before he practise mindulness < and setting mindfulness to the fore>>, so there is already a certain > level of training of this monks, because they are already established > in mindfullness. Then after that < that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that > he is breathing out long.>> He discerns :) what is discerns, mean a > clear comprehension means a certain level of development of wisdom. > So he must have right environment conditions, a certain level of sati > and panna even before he embarks on the journey to meditation. There > is no doubt there is meditation mentioned in the suttas and visudd, > but the question is, is it right for us or does it appear to be seen > as it is :). Nonetheless, everyone have different accumulations :) Hi Ken O Thanks for your explanation. Are you saying that meditating in the manner you describe must be done with Right Understanding in the forefront otherwise the meditator is likely to be grasping the Dhamma snake in the wrong place? Andrew 38618 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV,115 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 115. (c) With the life-continuum continuity occurring thus, when living beings' faculties have become capable of apprehending an object, then, when a visible datum has come into the eye's focus, there is impinging upon the eye-sensitivity due to the visible datum. Thereupon, owing to the impact's influence, there comes to be a disturbance in [the continuity of] the life-continuum.46 Then, when the life-continuum has ceased, the functional mind-element (70) arises making that same visible datum its object, as it were, cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. So too in the case of the ear door and so on. ----------------------------- Note 46. ' "A disturbance in the life-continuum" is a wavering of the life-continuum consciousness; the meaning is that there is the arrival at a state that is a reason for dissimilarity in its occurrence twice in that way. For it is called disturbance (calana) because it is like a disturbance (movement) since there seems to be a cause for an occasion (avatthaa) in the mind's continuity different from the previous occasion. Granted, firstly, that there is impact on the sensitivity owing to confrontation with an object, since the necessity for that is established by the existence of the objective field and the possessor of the objective field, but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478). 38619 From: plnao Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi Thank you again for lending me an ear as I work out my understanding. I am still going through the long e-mail you were kind enough to send me. > If you are not interested in trying formal meditation for whatever reason > that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this technique during your daily > activities: when you notice that your mind is very active, let go of > those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension in your mind and body > and then watch your breath and relax some more on the in-breath and out > breath for two or three breaths. This helps greatly in overcoming stress > and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yours personally. If > you can cultivate this daily it can be of great benefit to you. I am a bit confused by this, Bhante. This sounds more like a relaxation technique than a way of deepening insight into anatta. It would seem to me that if we seek relaxation in order to overcome stress at that moment, we are coming no closer to liberation from dukkha but are rather using meditation techniques to feel better for awhile. Now, feeling more relaxed physically is a good thing, and the calm it conditions may provide a more suitable atmosphere for insight, but it also seems to me that there is lobha involved with those moments of seeking relaxation from tension. I don't see how "overcoming stress" and "overcoming the false idea that thoughts and feelings are yous personally" are related. All too often overcoming stress is accomplished through methods that tighten the binds of self-view rather than loosening them, it would seem to me. If you could elaborate a bit more on the relationship beween overcoming stress through awareness of the breath and overcoming false ideas of self, I would be very grateful. Yesterday, I was walking in a big park where I go every Sunday morning before work. It is usually a time for peace and quiet and reflection as I walk, but yesterday there was some sort of activity going on involving someone shouting greetings through a loudspeaker. I had a lot of aversion to this, felt tension, and thought of your e-mail. I did breathe with attention, as I have often done during my walks in the past (using BO on the inbreath and DHA on the outbreath, as taught by so many teachers, or the Japanese word HEI -WA, which means "peace" and works nicely - my invention.) It is relaxing, there is no doubt about that. The aversion was temporarily subdued. But I also thought that it would be better to remember what I have learned from Abhidhamma: Cittas rooted in aversion (dosa) are always accompanied by cittas rooted in delusion (moha.) There would be no aversion if I were not ignorant of realities. For example, unpleasant sound is vipaka, a resultant of kamma. Also, people are the owners of their kamma, and behave in a way over which I have no control. Now, there is a wide range between thinking about these kinds of things and knowing them directly in the moment. As we develop deeper understanding, we move within that range, gradually, towards a more direct understanding. (This is my idea, not from Abhidhamma) The wonderful thing is that even understanding to a shallow degree is quite liberating, and, in my opinion, liberating in a way that is more lasting and more in line with understanding anatta than is relaxation through awareness of the breath. We know, however, that the Buddha taught many ways to liberation to different people based on his insight into their accumulations. It could be that I have accumulations that lead me in the direction of the process I described above, the same accumulations that currently are making it difficult for me to benefit from formal meditation. (I do meditate on mornings when my mind is so scattered that it is impossible to concentrate on my Dhamma study, and I do hope that conditions will arise that permit me to seek jhanas in this lifetime or one to come.) In my next post, I would like to address the issue of study, and try to lay out the various ways in which Dhamma study leads to a more direct understanding. The intellectual approach does not equal being lost in books, as many people seem to misunderstand. It's all about setting conditions for insight in daily life. Thanks again for your patience with my impudence. Metta, Phil 38620 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:50pm Subject: XIV 140 140. (ix) By its means they have faith (saddahanti), or it itself is having of faith (saddahana), thus it is faith (saddhaa). Its characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. Its function is to clarify, like a water-clearing gem, or its function is to enter into, like the setting out across a flood (cf. Sn. 184). It is manifested as non-fogginess, or it is manifested as resolution. Its proximate cause is something to have faith in, or its proximate cause is the things beginning with hearing the Good Dhamma (saddhamma) that constitute the factors of stream-entry.63 It should be regarded as a hand [because it takes hold of profitable things], as wealth (Sn. 182), and as seed (Sn. 77). ------------------------ Note 63. The four factors of stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on good men, hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: absolute confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of noble virtue (S.v,343). 38621 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 140 Hi all, Please disregard XIV 140 for now. Jumped the gun. Larry 38622 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether people > outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about > people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I > think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist > practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that > some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless > acts (that is quite true :) during our time). ===== If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought is accompanied by panna. One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does not understand anicca; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY understand anicca - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does not understand kamma; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY understand kamma - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. ===== > > So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can also > be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not associated > with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can > arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise without > any association with panna. > ===== The five precepts can be performed by anybody. Sometimes they are accompanied by panna, sometimes they are not. A Buddhist can perform precepts with or without panna, as can a non-Buddhist. Yes, compassion and loving kindness can arise with or without panna, by both Buddhists and non-Buddhists. ===== > p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of > your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. > The book won't be printed until January - I will let you know off- list of a suitable date (normally, my Singpaore trips are arrive and leave on the same day). Do you have any plans to make it up to KL? Metta, Rob M :-) 38623 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:15pm Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > even aeons. > ----------------- dear htoo, I was surpised by this statement. By aeon what do you mean? Robertk 38624 From: naresh gurwani Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going on through the messages daily also i was going on through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same motto but different view about the enlightment. Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory while some start with theory, some say meditation is not necessary for understanding dhamma. i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is imp for intiating the process... And its not possible to meditate alone one should go under training where concentrating on breath is imp, and what is samtha mediation. Iam still to find a correct view about how to understand buddha teaching which should make me atleast start. It will be helpful if somebody can guide me Awaiting your reply Naresh --- plnao wrote: > > Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi > > Thank you again for lending me an ear as I work out > my understanding. > I am still going through the long e-mail you were > kind enough to send me. > > > If you are not interested in trying formal > meditation for whatever reason > > that is fine. And, may I suggest trying this > technique during your daily > > activities: when you notice that your mind is very > active, let go of > > those thoughts and relax all tightness or tension > in your mind and body > > and then watch your breath and relax some more on > the in-breath and out > > breath for two or three breaths. This helps > greatly in overcoming stress > > and the false idea that thoughts and feelings are > yours personally. If > > you can cultivate this daily it can be of great > benefit to you. 38625 From: Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Him Rob (and Ken) - Exactly, Rob! Just "being a Buddhist" does not in itself confer any special powers, blessings, or wisdom. What is key is what one does, not what one identifies him/herself as. With metta, Howard P.S. Your post follows, without further comment from me. In a message dated 11/21/04 8:16:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O > wrote: > >My discussin with Dan D was an offshoot over the issue whether > people > >outside the dispensation is able to develop panna. It is not about > >people who are in the path doing kusala actions :). Dan D, as I > >think what he thought that selfless acts by non-Buddhist > >practitioners can be basis of developing panna and also said that > >some of them are better than Buddhists themselves in the selfless > >acts (that is quite true :) during our time). > > ===== > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > is accompanied by panna. > > One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does > not understand anicca; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY > understand anicca - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required > perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. > > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this > thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist attributes > this "justice" to an all-knowing God). > > One could argue that during this reflection, the non-Buddhist does > not understand kamma; but then again how many Buddhists REALLY > understand kamma - isn't it just a matter of degree? If it required > perfect knowledge, then only Arahants would have thoughts with panna. > > ===== > > > >So I am giving information from the text that five precepts can > also > >be done by non-practitioners of Buddhism but that does not > associated > >with panna. Similarly my opinion and not the text as kusala can > >arise without panna, compassion and loving kindness can arise > without > >any association with panna. > > > ===== > > The five precepts can be performed by anybody. Sometimes they are > accompanied by panna, sometimes they are not. A Buddhist can perform > precepts with or without panna, as can a non-Buddhist. > > Yes, compassion and loving kindness can arise with or without panna, > by both Buddhists and non-Buddhists. > > ===== > > >p.s. So when are coming to Singapore :). Please bring me a copy of > >your book the reason behind the Buddha smile. > > > > The book won't be printed until January - I will let you know off- > list of a suitable date (normally, my Singpaore trips are arrive and > leave on the same day). Do you have any plans to make it up to KL? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Htoo, I am not sure, they are arise and fall away, they are impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha, what do you think? Do you read this in a Commentary? It is true that they are not objects of clinging, the nine lokuttara dhammas are the only dhammas that are not objects of clinging. Under that aspect they are not the second noble truth, the cause of dukkha. Nina. op 21-11-2004 20:16 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > some exceptions: magga cittas and phala cittas are not dukkha as are > their accompanying cetasikas] 38627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what is desire Hi Larry, op 21-11-2004 19:22 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > L: What I had in mind is that the word "feeling" can mean touching or > vedana. This can be confusing when talking about body-door > experience. Similarly, the word "taste" can be a noun or verb, one > sense referring to a rupa and the other case referring to taste > consciousness (taste a taste). N: Yes, I understand now what you mean. Nina 38628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread , armed forces, navy Dear Htoo, I like your simile of armed forces and navy, Nina. op 21-11-2004 20:09 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:> > To repeat, in arm force saddha is general, sati is secretary, hiri > and ottappa are right and left wing leiutinant-general and 6 > cetasikas for citta namely cittapassaddhi, cittalahuta, cittamuduta, > cittakammannata, cittapagunnata, and cittujukata are soldiers of the > arm force. > > In navy again saddha is the admiral, tatramajjhattata is secretary, > alobha and adosa are right and left wing rear-admiral and 6 cetasikas > of all associated cetasikas namely kayapassaddhi, kayalahuta, > kayamuduta, kayakammannata, kayapagunnata, and kayujikata are all > followers. > > These 2 forces always guard the king sobhana cittas ( 59 or 91 > cittas ). 38629 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, Htoo added something about accumulation, perhaps it is clear now? op 21-11-2004 19:34 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > N: "If there were no accumulation how could > there be latent tendencies, anusayas, lying dormant in each citta." > > L: I am not saying there are no accumulations. I am just saying > accumulations are memory, habit, concept. There is no "reality" > called accumulation. If you want to find accumulation in citta > process you have to look at tadarammana and votthapana cittas. N: We cannot find accumulation in a process, but accumulated tendencies are dormant in each citta. And actively, javana cittas accumulate. We cannot say that they are especially with tadarammana and votthapana cittas. L:The > functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold conditions for each citta. (snip, snip) Nina. 38630 From: Andrew Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Hi, > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh Dear Naresh Welcome to DSG. It's very confusing sometimes when there are lots of people telling you to do different things. It was like that at the time of the Buddha, too. The Kalama Sutta tells the story of a group of villagers who were confused by it all and the Buddha gave them some good advice. Have you read the Kalama Sutta yet? Just before the Buddha died (or "attained parinibbana"), his followers were worried about who would guide them after his death. He told them to let the Dhamma (the Teachings) be their guide. And so should you. Why don't you become a "Dhamma explorer". Listen to all the different viewpoints. Ask lots of questions. Do lots of reading. Try some meditation. Don't commit yourself in any way to any viewpoint unless you feel comfortable with it. And even then, don't cling to it so tightly that you feel you have to defend it or convert others. Viewpoints can be dangerous things. The Suttas say that Right Understanding comes first. A good topic to start off with, don't you think? Finally, don't let the confusion make you depressed. After all, this is really exciting - Naresh's own journey into the depths of the Buddhadhamma - something the Buddha himself said was so profound, it is difficult to see. As your guide, use your own understanding of the Dhamma - and that is something which will change as you go along. If you cling to something that changes, suffering happens. So relax and enjoy learning as much as you can about this remarkable being we call the Buddha. You don't need a guide apart from the Teachings. Best wishes Andrew 38631 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi Naresh, Welcome! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me Most Buddhist books (and most Buddhist web-sites) hold the view that "formal meditation" (i.e. time spent sitting on a cushion) is an important part of spiritual development. (BTW - I happen to be one of those who thinks this way.) Some on this site hold that view that mindfulness should be part of daily life and that time spent on a cushion is no more special than other moments arising throughout the day. They view the attachment to "time on the cushion as something special" as reinforcing the concept of a self that has control over the flow of the mind. (I hope that I haven't mis-stated the position of these people). Naresh, please do not let this difference of opinion between members of DSG get in the way of your participation in DSG. There are two types of meditation: - Vipassana (mindfulness of whatever object arises) - Samatha (concentration on a specific object) You should not start meditating (particularly samatha meditation) without a qualified teacher to guide you. Studying the Dhamma and straightening out of views are important practices. Whether meditating or not, you can benefit a lot by asking Dhamma-related questions to the members of DSG. Reading Nina's books, such as "Buddhism in Daily Life", is an excellent place to start. Looking forward to your first set of questions! Metta, Rob M :-) 38632 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hello Naresh, Welcome to dsg. Personally, I think it important to intellectually understand what the Buddha taught before launching into some practice or other. As Andrew has stated, right view of the dhamma is first and foremost. Buddha's teaching leads eventually to detachment, so if we don't have right view of what is and is not the Path leading to cessation of attachment, then we may be developing the wrong path and lots more wrong view. Study the teachings, ask questions - no matter how trivial you think they might be, and slowly the right understanding of the Buddha- Dhamma develops. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, naresh gurwani wrote: > > Hi, > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. > Some seek mediatation before understanding the theory > while some start with theory, some say meditation is > not necessary for understanding dhamma. > > i have read from some sites tht a formal meditation is > imp for intiating the process... > And its not possible to meditate alone one should go > under training where concentrating on breath is imp, > and what is samtha mediation. > > Iam still to find a correct view about how to > understand buddha teaching which should make me > atleast start. > > > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh 38633 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 0:37am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 55 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** The Atthasåliní then gives a second definition: * .Perception has the characteristic of perceiving by an act of general .inclusion, and the function of making marks as a condition for .repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering)(2), as when .woodcutters ‘perceive’ logs and so forth. Its manifestation is the action .of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, as in the case of .blind persons who ‘see’ an elephant(3). Or, it has briefness as .manifestation, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate the .object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared, like the .perception which arises in young deer mistaking scarecrows for men. * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 130) gives a similar definition. We can use the words perceiving, noting, recognizing and ‘marking’ in order to designate the reality which is saññå, but words are inadequate to describe realities. We should study the characteristic and function of saññå. *** 2) I am using the translation of the Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, page 69, BPS, Kandy, 1976 3) Here I use the English translation of the Visuddhimagga, XIV, 130, instead of the English text of the Atthasåliní. The commentary refers to a story in the “Udåna” (Verses of Uplift, Minor Anthologies, 68-69) about blind people who touch different parts of an elephant. Each of them interprets in his own way what an elephant is like: the person who touches the head believes that the elephant is like a pot, since he remembers what a pot is like; the person who touches the tusks believes that it is like a ploughshare, and so on. Thus, there is recognizing of a sign or label which was made before. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38634 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Hi Hugo, Welcome to DSG. I'm enjoying your posts and gentle wit. Glad Htoo gave you 3x Sadhu!! ... --- Hugo wrote: > > > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:08:08 -0000, buddhatrue > wrote: > > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > > don't have the printed copies) > > Excellent advice James! .... S: Hmmm- haven't you heard that reading this discussion group is the short-cut to nibbana??;-). Seriously, I'd recommend also dipping into the vinaya, abhidhamma and commentaries - even just reading the brief commentary notes B.Bodhi gives with some of his translations or the ones he gives in full, such as with the Brahmajala Sutta which Andrew just mentioned. In another post (which I can't find now), you mentioned that you planned to start reading some abhidhamma I think. I'd recommend looking at the posts in Useful Posts (a small selection from the archives), under: Abhidhamma: Beginners. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts You may then like to start looking at Nina's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' and any of the materials on RobK's website. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ I also recommend Bodhi's translation of Abhidammattha Sangaha(CMA)as a reference text. OK, patience (khanti) is needed. Looking at the subject heading, I'm reminded that we discussed in India about how patience is included in viriya cetasika and can be wholesome or unwholesome. In the latter cases, it's not khanti at all. This is the value of the teachings - we begin to understand more and more about the present dhammas which make up our life. This morning in my yoga class, lots of patience, but mostly accompanying attachment and aversion and ignorance. And then, there are many friends here with a keen interest and knowledge in the Abhidhamma to answer any questions..... You've made a great start with your contributions and I look forward to reading more of them. Where do you live? Do share anything else about your background and interest too. (even a pic if you have one to spare for the album on the homepage....). Metta, Sarah ========= 38635 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Hello Robert, Htoo, all In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken them. And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the remainder of one.' Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage is much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also takes avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the remainder'). After some hesitation, and preferring the lesser 'miracle', I have translated the sense of kappa (as I take it) by 'a century'. This ,of course accords with DA. I have, however, adopted the usual meaning of avasesa as making good sense. For the Buddha, the 'remainder' would have been twenty years. PTS translators of the parallel passages have differed in their interpretations. Whereas RD in DN preferred 'aeon', Woodward at SN 51.10 (followed reluctantly by Hare at AN 8.70!) has 'allotted span', and at UD 6.1 he tersely remarks: "Supposed by some to mean "the aeon or world-period"'. It may be noted that LDB has 'world-period"', while Mrs. Bennett discreetly omits the passage. ---------------------------------------------- And Thanissaro Bhikkhu (excerpt below) gives the translation as 'a world period'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ============================== EXCERPT from: Part Three Relinquishing the Will to Live The Blessed One's Prompting <<<<<>>>>> 3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it." 4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" 5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent. 6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you." "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > > even aeons. > > > ----------------- > dear htoo, > I was surpised by this statement. > By aeon what do you mean? > Robertk 38636 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dear Christine, Here is a story told by non-followers of The Buddha and they all assumed themselves as colleagues and The Buddha was one of them. They were brahmins. They practised Yoga and Jhana and they lived long such as 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years, 2000 years and so on. They remarked 'Gotama had to pass away because he did not practised yoga and jhana. Instead he practised vipassana and this took his life. They are attavadis. They like permanency. They said they can overcome lifespan if they want and so on. But this whole message is not valid enough, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of 38637 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Nina wrote: Dear Htoo, I am not sure, they are arise and fall away, they are impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha, what do you think? Do you read this in a Commentary?It is true that they are not objects of clinging, the nine lokuttara dhammas are the only dhammas that are not objects of clinging. Under that aspect they are not the second noble truth, the cause of dukkha. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- vimutti dhamma'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38638 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread , armed forces, navy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I like your simile of armed forces and navy, > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, I use this simile on my own. The reasons I use this simile are 1. cetasikas arise with citta and seem to be helping citta. arm force, navy, air force etc are helping the king and his territories. 2. sati seems to be a permanent reminder like a secretary reminding his or her boss. Hiri and ottappa work together and they are powerful. So I appoint them as right and left wing. 3. when I think on alobha, adosa and tatramajjhattata, adosa and tatramajjhatta are actually under the same group of 4 brahmavihara. but alobha is close to adosa. So alobha and adosa are appointed as right and left wing when tatramajjhatta can be appointed as a secretary. 4. among 19, 12 are closedly linked. 7 are separate. Saddha seems the leader of all 19. So I make 7 to 8 by repeating it as a leader of both forces. 12 are divided into 6 and put them as soldiers. 5. I use this for easy understanding and for memory. When we think as 2 separate forces, we can clearly see the mental images of them. Thanks for you remark on this matter. With respect, Htoo Naing 38639 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The > Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken them. > And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the > remainder of one.' > > Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage is > much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED > for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- > span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also takes > avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the > remainder'). ============= Dear christine, Yes, in Theravada there is no controversy, kappa in this context means lifespan (not AEON). It is also said in Vimanavatthu atthakatha and maybe in the Katthavathu too, I can check if there are still doubts. Htoo, do you accept this? Robertk 38640 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi RobM > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > is accompanied by panna. k: Sorry boss, Buddha's panna must be anatta and not anicca or dukkha . See Dispeller of Deplusion (forget which part) that only with the arisen of Buddha then Anatta would be known to the worldings. Only through anatta, then there is cessation of birth. > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist > attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). k: Nope this thought is not accompanied by panna as I told you in an earlier email and kusala behaviour only leads to kusala kamma and not cessation of birth. If this kind of behaviour can lead to salvation, there is already a lot of enlighted Arahants during Buddha time without Buddha teaching, for eg his two teachers before he was enlighted who both attain high levels of jhanas. Ken O p.s. yup I am likely coming up to KL on Feb for Chinese New Year :) 38641 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Hi Nina and Htoo I dont think this is right, as long as it is citta, it is dukkha regardless whether it is lokuttara citta. As long as there is impermanency there is dukkha. There is also still dukkha in formations Dukkha is not about releasing from clinging only. It is more than that. Ken O 38642 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi Andrew I am not against meditation, I only suggest that meditation is not as simple as seen in the eye. We have to read the fine line very carefully in the suttas :). Yup meditation must have certain level of mundane right view and also a certain level of suppression of sensual behaviour before it can be embark, or not the likelihood of attaching to a self is very high. But it is still up to individual likings to practise. Ken O 38643 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Bhante wrote: Dhamma Greetings Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Bhante quoted 'the Buddha said that Nibbana only occurs when one >does see and understand by direct knowledge the links of dependent >origination, (Sutta 14 (4) SN )'. >May I ask you which of 'the Buddha 's words say these'; please >provide the original Pali and their meanings? *************** Bhante: If you would read this sutta closely you would be able to see that I did paraphrase the above statement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now that I am clear you DID PARAPHRASE, I will stop the discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >May I ask you whether all 12 links are seen at a single moment? ****************** Bhante From a meditators view no they do not happen all in a single moment they arise and pass away very rapidly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now I can clearly see that 12 links do not happen all in a single moment. Manodvara avajjana citta sees anicca, parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta while seeing anicca at the same time likes to release but cannot afford, gotrabhu as it is a lineage changing citta and arammana has a bit changed and it becomes nibbana while still holding seeing of anicca as loki dhamma. All Path arise at magga kala seeing nibbana, penetrating dukkha, releasing tanha. All 4 jobs are done. They are realisation of dukkha sacca, eradicating of samudaya sacca, seeing of nibbana, and developing of the Path. There is no 12 links at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Yes, it is important to see these three characteristics but in the context of the arising and passing away of the links of dependent origination. Not just by themselves. And as far as seeing impermanence there have been many western philosophers who have had that insight. Like never being able to step in the same river twice. Which was observed at roughly the same time as when the Buddha was living. But this insight about impermanence is not by itself enough to bring the deeper understanding of dependent origination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not devaluing paticcasamuppada. It is really important. But it is recently put in the wrong way. It is not a Path. It is not a method. When you said direct seeing of tilakkhana is not enough, I was shocked and it seems a bit strange. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Contemplation on these were true. But at magga kala, may I ask who > see D.O? ***** Bhante: The process of D.O. sees it. Just before nibbana occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, now the axis changes. Just before nibbana occurs. I agree and I will stop this discussion. This 'just before nibbana occurs' is actually many vithi vara before magga vithi vara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is contemplation. This is having a mental review on Dhamma. But > at magga kala, magga citta only sees nibbana and no DO is there at > all. After His attainment, The Buddha had to contemplate on > Paticcasamuppada for a week. > > But magga kala is just a single moment and magga citta does not see > any link of DO. Magga citta only sees nibbana. The arammana of magga > cittas are nibbana. The arammana of magga cittas are not DO. > > D.O is contemplated by paccavakkhana nana and later kamavacara > mahakiriya cittas. > > Magga cittas do not see D.O. Magga cittas see Nibbana. No citta can > see 2 objects at the same time. This is citta niyama. Even The Buddha > could not abolish the citta niyama. ****** Bhante: This may or may not be true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why Bhante? Did The Buddha afford to change the order of cittas in vithi vara? There is Dhammapuja mudra of The Buddha's Image showing respect to The Dhamma. The Buddha never worship anyone except The Dhamma. You said may not be true. Why? Could The Buddha abolish the citta niyama? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: >The word wisdom (pan~n~a) here means deep understanding. >Then this sutta goes all of the way through the origination of >these links of dependent origination and then through the cessation >of these links. he spent much time reviewing this and seeing if there >was any flaws in his observations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is wrong to say. As The Buddha He would not think Dhamma were > wrong. So The Buddha did not need to check Dhamma whether there was > any flaw. > Instead as Dhamma are deep, large, wide and endless, He had to spent >for 49 days before He preached Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** Bhante: Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the Buddha (bodhisatta) thought the Dhamma was wrong. I meant to say that he did check out his insights for their correctness and deep understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You now say sorry, and I accept that. I understand. It is paccavakkhana nana that check Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: Does birth arise at every moment? Does death arise every moment? ********* Bhante: An interesting question. And the answer is yes. Every time dependent origination arises and passes away it is a literal birth and death. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will note this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Does it need to mention when understood? ****** Bhante: Yes and often or until one understands it completely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will note that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > In one of my replies, I wrongly mentioned that Bhante said 'clinging > manifests as tension or headache'. Now it is clear that Bhante > said 'this tightness or tension is craving'. > > I do not believe so. Craving is nama dhamma. Headache or tension are > physical phenomena. They are not equal. > > They are rupa dhamma. They are photthabba rupa. They are gocara rupa. > They are visaya rupa. > > Nama does not equal to rupa dhamma. If someone makes this as equation > this is wrong. > > Craving does not equal to headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ************** Bhante: Actually what I have repeatedly have said is the tightness or tension arises in both mind and body and this is "HOW" craving is recognized. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Any tension any pressure is vayo. It is rupa. Tanha which is lobha cetasika is nama dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: So what you are saying doesn't apply to what I have stated. And again tightness or tension does not equal a headache. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even not equal, tension or tightness is vayo and it is rupa. It is not nama dhamma. If rupa and nama dhamma are clearly and separately seen, there is no reason to say tension is craving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: It just means exactly what I have said it is a tightness or tension and it is subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not talking on degree. For example -200 degree celsius and +200 degree celsius both are tejo. Any tension, any force, any pressure any movement is vayo however subtle they are. It is vayo. It is rupa dhamma. It is not nama dhamma. It is not craving at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Not gross like a headache. Please understand this and stop saying that I am in any way inferring that this tightness or tension is anything other than subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I read Suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, jatakas, dhammapada, and all other related material including commentaries, I never saw such an idea that 'craving manifests as tension or tightness'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante: > > Craving is the "I like it ... I don't like it mind" Do you see > the "I" in it? This is a real difference in the way the meditators > insights arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Leave 'I like it' alone. 'I don't like it' is dosa. It is not lobha. > But related to lobha. > > Lobha and dosa never arise together. ******** Bhante: I have never said that they did. I am only describing what craving is in real terms and "HOW" to recognize it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not say you said this [ that is lobha and dosa arise together]. But you did say 'Craving is 'Ilike it..I don't like it mind'. Did you? I just pointed out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante quote: > > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > ********* Bhante: I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you would look at his writtings you will see this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This makes much sense. > > In vithi vara there are kamavacara pancadvara vithi vara, kamavacara > manodvara vithi vara, rupavacara manodvara vithi vara, arupavacara > manodvara vithi vara, magga vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, > and nirodha samapatti vithi vara. > > In rupakusala cittas and arupakusala cittas vithi vara take their > specific arammana or objects. At that time they seem to take a single > object and said to be deeply concentrated. > > But in magga vithi vara which is unlike jhana vithi vara, it is well > relaxed, well balanced, well penetrated, brought insight and this > insight knowledge or wisdom see tilakkhana just before seeing of > nibbana. These vithi varas are well calm and well concentrated and > can be said as vipassana jhana. We do not need words but need to > understand. > > In jhana vithi vara just before appana jhana arise, there arise > kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise as parikamma, upacara, anuloma, > gotrabhu. Then jhana arises. This appana samadhi or jhana is > rupavacara rupa jhana. > > In magga vithi vara just before appana samadhi arise, there arise > kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise. All these kamavacara mahakusala > cittas are vipassana nana cittas. After gotrabhu citta, appana arise > and this magga sees nibbana. As this samadhi is appana, this can be > called vipassana jhana. Understanding is more important. > ****** Bhante: this is commentarial and doesn't necessarily agree with the information given in the suttas and vinaya. The problem is this (as I see it) I am trying to clearly describe the kind of jhana that arises when one follows the sutta instructions and you are answering by the use of the commentaries about a completely different type of jhana. Sometimes you might need to, in the spirit of investigation, try the sutta instructions for yourself . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Suttas are my first reference but not the only reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: By this I mean that, you will see for yourself if you take the time and effort to try the sutta method of instructions. Then only will you be able to truly understand the differences between the absorption jhana and the sutta instructions jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So what is the difference? What is the sutta instructions jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: In This way you can give a direct experience, educated answer. Otherwise this is a never ending disagreement because I am talking about apples and you are talking about bananas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think so. Walking the Path has to be the same for all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: Yes they are both fruit but that is about all they have in common. And where in the Buddha-Dhamma does it say that samadhi equals appana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Samadhi is steadiness. It takes the object of meditation. But in a define period, not all cittas are taking a single object. Many cittas arise and fall away. Many objects arise and fall away. If not in bhavana, ekaggatas of cittas are not told as samadhi. But as soon as bhavana is started samadhi arises. Initial samadhi is just preparing for much powerful samadhi. That initial samadhi is preparatory samadhi. Parikamma samadhi. When there is no hindrance at all but cittas are not absorbed into the object. This means it is very possible that cittas can take other objects like D.O, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc etc. This freedom of cittas is essential for arising of magga cittas. The samadhi that exists in un-absorbed state is called upacara samadhi. It is shakable. Movable. Move from anicca then to dukkha, then to anatta then to each link of 12 links of D.O. There is no hindrance at all and this is upacara samadhi. Once absorbed, cittas become all jhana cittas which run stably in uninterrupted flow like JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ The whole block is not interrupted. When Jhana object is there and citta sees that jhana citta, citta will not see any anicca, dukkha, anatta, any link of 12 links of D.O. People are saying 'commentaries' 'commentaries' 'commentaries'. But without help of commentaries, deep meaning of suttas can never be understood. Just reading of others' translation and arguing is not worthy to do. Deeply explore all existing texts including commentaries, and then practise and then the last thing is to discuss with experienced ones. When cittas are flowing in JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ, the samadhi at that time is called appana samadhi. Appana means 'close' 'very close' 'very very close'. It is so close that citta appraoches to the object and touch each other and fuses into one singleness and becomes unshakable. Once The Buddha was in 4th jhana. There were lightening, thundering, loud noice etc etc. 'Your recluse, did you hear the thundering and lightening?' ''No. I did not hear anything'', answered The Buddha. This is because The Buddha was in 4th jhana. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ endless and there is no pancadvara avajjana citta can arise at that time. It is not the condition for arising of pancadvara avajjana which otherwise might advert to thundering and lightening. But The Buddha was in 4th rupa jhana. That is absorptive jhana. That is appana jhana and the samadhi in that jhana is appana samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: This is from another commentary written by Venerable Dhammapala who founded the univerisity that Venerable Buddhgosa studied at in India. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If samadhi is not well understood, mastering jhana is totally not possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante quote: > > RobertK: The path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight > into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > Bhante: Again, where is this described in the suttas? It seems to me > that the cause of suffering and samsara is craving and ignorance so > the way to get off of the wheel is by seeing directly the impersonal > nature of the process of dependent origination (as seen through the 4 > Noble Truths). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Once I was asked by Khanti Khema that 'Do you cling to The Buddha's > Teaching?'. > Now I see, someone clings to D.O and persistently arguing as a strong > fact. > > Bodhisatta was shown old man, diseased man, and dead mean. At that > time He noted the implication of change which is anicca and that > change is suffering or dukkha. He got jhana training from Alara up to > akincinnayatana arupa jhana. He got jhana training from Udaka up to > n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa jhana. These are not the answer and he > went far. After 2 extremes, He adjusted and when balance arose seeing > of tilakkhana arose and this exponentially raised up to asavakkhaya > nana. > ________________ ***** Bhante: This seems to be a case of someone clinging to the commentaries as opposed to someone who is actually taking their information from the suttas and vinaya, then applying it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here what I do see is abhidhamma is left out totally. Abhidhamma is what The Buddha gave back to His late mother Tusita Deva at Tavatimsa Deva realm. The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > Tilakkhana is main. When tilakkhana are really seen that is directly seen, DO is already included and it does not need to be mentioned. ***** Bhante: Why does this sound like an opinion rather than a Dhamma fact? Please go to the first few answers about sutta 14 (4) SN for your answer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not an opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The first 2 discourses are about Noble Eightfold Path ( 1st ) and 5 > khandhas. When 5 khandhas were taught, they were checked with anicca, > dukkha, and anatta. > > This is quite clear in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which is The Buddha > 2nd Discourse. There was nothing mentioned about DO in the 2nd > Discourse. But tilakkhanas were mentioned. > > Again, in the 1st Discourse, The Buddha never mentioned > Paticcasamuppada or D.O. The Buddha first said this extreme was not > good and this another extreme was also not good and you all had to > avoid these two extremes. Then what you have to do was to take the > middle way or majjhima patipada. > > Majjhima means 'middle' 'not extreme' 'balanced'. Patipada > means 'practising path'. This middle way is Noble Eightfold Path or > attha magganga or 8-cetasikas-led-Path. There was not mentioned any > of DO. > > I did not find any DO both in 1st Sutta and 2nd Sutta. > > I remember KK's question again. Khanti Khema asked me, > > 'Htoo, do you cling to The Buddha's Teachings'. > > But now someone clings to D.O. > > Sometimes upadana dhammas are hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bhante: >Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little different than just seeing them by themselves. >One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? **** Bhante: Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or proper to question me in this way! _____________________ > Htoo: > For me I want to study suttas, vinayas, abhidhammas, buddhavamsa, > jinatthapakasani, jataka, dhammapada. I do not confine to any > particular thing. I do not cling to Suttas. ********** Bhante: You might add how many commentaries you use as well. Again, I am coming from an experiential background and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, it is needed to be careful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: when I find that if I follow the sutta and vinaya instructions in my meditation and the Suttas and Vinaya agrees completely with what is experienced, then I will take the time and energy to show others this - as the Buddha recommended in the Parinibbana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you are showing others about 'tension' 'tightness in head and mind'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: If you will remember correctly this is the way to see if the Buddha-Dhamma being taught is true and worth following or not. When the sutta instructions are practiced in this way, then a strong confidence arises that is unshakable. The whole of the Buddha's teachings are present in the suttas and vinaya as a guide to help. Some other commentaries may or may not be correct and this is why it is very necessary to try for yourself before accusing another of some attachments and trying to build yourself up as the example for studying, this shows a great deal of pride and is nothing but a low academic trick to distract, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'academic trick'. This is the site where I see there is the idea which is similar to 'milking of the goat'. These indirectly mean.. ..People! You are arguing all the time and you never practised anything. You do not have any real experience. If you think so try to milk that goat as you already know how to milk a goat in your books. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: when the accuser sees for themselves that they have attachments and they are being questioned and shown that there are some wrong assumptions that were made. Please stop doing this. It is not helpful or beneficial to you or anyone else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am trying to make balance view. Flexible way. I am not shouting this is the only right and others are wrong. I am not saying only suttas are right and others are wrong. I did not say I prefer anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bhante: > > ..is because of their interconnectedness with each other. They are > truly amazing in this way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > > Dear Bhante, if you are well learned in Sutta, may I very humbly ask > you to explain on DN 15 Mahanidana Sutta? > > There are duties of bhikkhus on lay people. They have to teach what > have not been heard before. > > What are 8 vimokkhas in Mahanidana Suttas? > > That Sutta says the practitioner has to do forward, then backward, > then forward and backward order of these 8 vimokkhas. > > It will be beneficial for all DSG members if you very kindly explain > on these matter rather than talking on headache, tension etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: I do forgive you for saying this because you and your pride, won't take the time to investigate for yourself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is avoidance to answer clearly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: But "don't" say that again! At least, until you have the direct experience of what I am talking about. Only then will you know if what I am saying is true or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Now to clear the suspect please explain on 8 vimokkhas or Mahanidana > Sutta DN 15. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ****** Bhante: Please get a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on this subject it is quite good and does happen to agree with everything that I have so far said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is avoiding to answer. This is avoiding to teach lay people. When asked, not answer. But when do not asked, 'tension' 'tightness in mind and body' are taught. If you have kind heart please teach DSG Mahanidana sutta clearly especially 8 vimokkhas. Teaching of Dhamma is functions of Bhikkhus and not of lay people. Many people read that sutta. They seem not understand it. That is why I am asking you to teach. Please do not copy and paste others writing. Please explain one peace after another. If you do not teach, then you are avoiding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhante: > Also this is another way of trying to show off. If you are really > interested in this please do it yourself and send it to me then I will > give my comments on what you have written. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Bhante, I have clearly mentioned above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the way to check to see if what is being said is correct or > not. When seeing and reading the many descriptions that the Buddha > made in the suttas helps one to gain real confidence because it is > said so many times in so many different ways. But it seems to always > come back to the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Repetition is because Suttas were preached to different destination > at different time. > ----------------- > Bhante: > Actually repetition is because the Buddha wanted the people who listened > to Dhamma to remember it. He could have talked like we do these days > without any repetition, but he chose to teach by this method. > > May you be free from suffering. > > Maha-Metta always, > Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May you accomplish you job. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38644 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. Dear RobertK, Please see # 38636. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > , The Buddha told Ananda that Bhagava can live longer > > even aeons. > > > ----------------- > dear htoo, > I was surpised by this statement. > By aeon what do you mean? > Robertk 38645 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: two kinds of jhana, pañña. Bhante, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Robert, Htoo, all > > > > In DN 16.3.3 Maurice Walshe adds a note to his translation of "The > > Tathagata has developed these powers, ... properly undertaken > them. > > And he could, Aananda, undoubtedly live for a century, or the > > remainder of one.' > > > > Note 400 "Kappa.m vaa tittheyya kappaavasesa.m vaa" This passage > is > > much disputed. The usual meaning of kappa is "aeon" (but see PED > > for other senses). DA, however, takes it to mean 'the full life- > > span' (i.e. in Gotama's day, 100 years: cf. DN 14.1.7) DA also > takes > > avasesa to mean 'in excess' (the usual meaning being 'the > > remainder'). > ============= > Dear christine, > Yes, in Theravada there is no controversy, kappa in this context > means lifespan (not AEON). It is also said in Vimanavatthu > atthakatha and maybe in the Katthavathu too, I can check if there > are still doubts. > Htoo, do you accept this? > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear robert K, I will check. It is possible. But see my reply to Christine. With respect, Htoo Naing 38646 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Never Created Theravada. To Howard On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:42:24 EST, upasaka@a... wrote: > seems to me, not so much because of "market forces", but because many fellow > academics in Buddhist Studies, in my opinion, simply take the life out of the > Dhamma by taking an approach that is dry, pedantic, and emphasizing of > inessentials. Do you mean like being attached to concepts, definitions, "purity" of language used to express ideas, and then losing focus of what is the real goal of the Buddha's teachings? :-) -- Hugo 38647 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/22/04 12:07:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. > N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold > conditions for each citta. > ====================== If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38648 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, Naresh (and Andrew) - In the following, Andrew gives you what I consider to be excellent, ba lanced advice! Please take it to heart. And, please, be very kind to yourself, show patience, take it slow, learn little by little, especially at first, in my opinion, from what all Buddhists agree are teachings of the Buddha, the suttas. Let your approach be a balanced one, mixing study of the teachings with the moral and meditative training the Buddha provided. Above all, don't be quick to adopt a fixed view of what the Dhamma is about. A key element of the Dhamma is relinquishment, and an important aspect of relinquishment is the willingness not to cling to points of view. You *will* have various views, and they will likely change from time to time, but views are not the same as "knowings" - so don't hold tight, but relax and enjoy a lovely ride on the vehicle of freedom, the Buddhadhamma. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/22/04 12:26:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear Naresh > > Welcome to DSG. It's very confusing sometimes when there are lots of > people telling you to do different things. It was like that at the > time of the Buddha, too. The Kalama Sutta tells the story of a group > of villagers who were confused by it all and the Buddha gave them > some good advice. Have you read the Kalama Sutta yet? > > Just before the Buddha died (or "attained parinibbana"), his > followers were worried about who would guide them after his death. > He told them to let the Dhamma (the Teachings) be their guide. > > And so should you. Why don't you become a "Dhamma explorer". Listen > to all the different viewpoints. Ask lots of questions. Do lots of > reading. Try some meditation. Don't commit yourself in any way to > any viewpoint unless you feel comfortable with it. And even then, > don't cling to it so tightly that you feel you have to defend it or > convert others. Viewpoints can be dangerous things. > > The Suttas say that Right Understanding comes first. A good topic to > start off with, don't you think? > > Finally, don't let the confusion make you depressed. After all, this > is really exciting - Naresh's own journey into the depths of the > Buddhadhamma - something the Buddha himself said was so profound, it > is difficult to see. As your guide, use your own understanding of > the Dhamma - and that is something which will change as you go > along. If you cling to something that changes, suffering happens. > So relax and enjoy learning as much as you can about this remarkable > being we call the Buddha. You don't need a guide apart from the > Teachings. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38649 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hi, Rob (and Naresh) - Just a couple points of slight differing with respect to a post I otherwise agree with: In a message dated 11/22/04 12:34:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > There are two types of meditation: > - Vipassana (mindfulness of whatever object arises) > - Samatha (concentration on a specific object) > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There is also the view held by some, here and elsewhere, that at least one type of mental cultivation taught by the Buddha involves an in-tandem cultivation of samatha (calm) and satipatthana (establishment of mindfulness), that leads in a balanced, natural way, to an unfolding (both gradual and sudden) of wisdom. This is an approach that aims at a mind trained to be both calm and clear. ----------------------------------------------- > > You should not start meditating (particularly samatha meditation) > without a qualified teacher to guide you. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that first-hand training by a qualified teacher is best. But until that is available, there are good written teachings, in books and available on the internet, that describe safe, simple practices, which can be carried out for short periods. Using the breath, for example, as an "anchor" for quieting the mind as it attends to whatever arises in the mind and body from moment to moment is widely and beneficially practiced. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38650 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Hi Bhante Vimalaramsi > ****Bhante > The reason is because he was talking about one-pointed absorption > concentration and the suttas don't. If you really want to see the > difference then try the sutta instructions for a short period of > time. k: In the Visud Chapter VIII, para 145, the materials are from the suttas. Then in para 189 , there is meditation of breath described in detail in giving attention to (1) counting, (2) connexion.... (8 ways to give attention to) which is now widely used by sangha throughout the world. > *****Bhante > Because they really don't agree with the suttas and vinaya. Nowhere > in the suttas does it say that Vipassana is one kind of meditation and samadhi is another. In sutta # 149 it bascially says that vipassana and samatha are yoked together. They are experienced at the same time. This is why I see some differences between the sutta/vinaya and the Visuddhi Magga. k: In AN IV, 123, the Jhanas and Rebirth gives a good indication that a different type of meditation will lead to what kind of fruits. Before Buddha, one of his teacher reached to the highest level of jhanas - but still he is not enlighted. > ***** Bhante > Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the > Dhamma/vinaya. k: In the Sumsima Sutta of Nidanasamyutta, it the three characterisitcs are the same as D.O. Ken O 38651 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Htoo: Here what I do see is abhidhamma is left out totally. Abhidhamma is what The Buddha gave back to His late mother Tusita Deva at Tavatimsa Deva realm. The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother. Joop: Some questions, as you ask questions to other members: - Do you mean all books of the Abhidhamma, included the Kahavatthu ? - You didn't mention the role of Sariputta in this story (that the Buddha, coming back from the Tavatimsa Deva realm, told the same or give a synopsis to Sariputta, so that we - early beings - can hear about them too. Is that correct ? - What do you suggest by "The Buddha did not preach any Sutta to His late mother"; my impression is you mean they are not so important as the Abhidhamma, is that correct? - Why did the Buddha this on this way, on that place? - What is the source of this history: the sutta's, the Abhidhamma or commentaries (centuries later)? To give my personal opinion: That the Abhidhamma is told by the Buddha to His late mother is a construction used many times by the Mahayanists who claim that their texts were really sutta's/sutra's spoken by the Buddha but esoteric (secret), for example out of a strategy of 'skilful means' (said more straight: because the normal human listeners to the talks of the Buddha were to stupid to understand them. This anti-dating strategy can be called a Mahayana-strategy; I think that we, Theravadins, don't need it. I will take take this story of the origin of the Abhidhamma as a myth, not a historical truth but a kind of higher truth: that the Abidhamma is the core of the message of the Buddha, on a abstract, not-narrative way. And that it is - on this planet Earth - composed by groups of monks of couple of years (I don't know how much) after Buddha' Parinibbana. And in theory (but I'm not a expert to decide) it's possible to me that these monks in their 'translation' of the Sutta's changed the content a little bit, because it's impossible to translate without change the content at all. I have another question to you, because you are making the discussion with the Bhante so complex that a (Pali-) non-scholar can't follow it: There are meditation-masters who say vipassana (insight) meditation is enough to get liberated, that we don't need samatha (absorption) till a jhanic level. There are other meditation-masters who prefer samatha, the higher the jhanic level the better. And there are masters who say it's impossible (for a real buddhist meditator) to do the one without doing the other. What is your opinion and your advice to do ? Metta Joop 38652 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, I will make a short reply to some of the things you have said then not expect to carry this thread any further. You said: "I am a bit confused by this, Bhante. This sounds more like a relaxation technique than a way of deepening insight into anatta. It would seem to me that if we seek relaxation in order to overcome stress at that moment, we are coming no closer to liberation from dukkha but are rather using meditation techniques to feel better for awhile. Now, feeling more relaxed physically is a good thing, and the calm it conditions may provide a more suitable atmosphere for insight, but it also seems to me that there is lobha involved with those moments of seeking relaxation from tension. *****Bhante If you have read some of my earlier post you would have seen the Craving manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Craving is the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts (clinging) in it. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period of time the real benefits will become apparent. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38653 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Htoo, You said "Dear Bhante, now I can clearly see that 12 links do not happen all in a single moment. Manodvara avajjana citta sees anicca, parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta sees anicca, anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta while seeing anicca at the same time likes to release but cannot afford, gotrabhu as it is a lineage changing citta and arammana has a bit changed and it becomes nibbana while still holding seeing of anicca as loki dhamma. All Path arise at magga kala seeing nibbana, penetrating dukkha, releasing tanha. All 4 jobs are done. They are realisation of dukkha sacca, eradicating of samudaya sacca, seeing of nibbana, and developing of the Path. There is no 12 links at all." This is commonly called eel-wiggling in the suttas. And I realize that you won't recognizr it as such. But in many replies you have misrepresented what I said and changed things around to make yourself seem tto know better. This is not Dhamma. I will not respond to you again. Because of this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38654 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta ***** Bhante Again, This is according to some commentaries, but not the Dhamma/vinaya. k: In the Sumsima Sutta of Nidanasamyutta, it the three characterisitcs are the same as D.O. Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O and Bhante Vimalaramsi, Tilakkhanas are being talked all the time. Even at funerals. But at funerals, DO is not talked. Htoo Naing 38655 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have talked on 7 sabbacitta saadharana cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cvetasikas, 14 akusala cetasikas, and 19 sabbasobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas. There are 3 cetasikas which act as inhibition. They are virati cetasikas. Virati means 'avoidance'. They are samma-vaca, samma- kammanta, samma-ajiva or vaci-ducarita virati, kaya-ducarita virati, dujiva virati cetasikas. These 3 cetasikas always arise with magga cittas and phala cittas. Other cittas that they can arise with are 8 kamavacara mahakusala cittas. But in these cittas, these 3 cetasikas do not alway arise. Even if arise, only one can arise at a moment. There are 2 appamanna cetasikas. They are karuna cetasika and mudita cetasika. They are called appamanna because they are boundless, limitless and endless. These two never arise together. When one arises, another cannot arise as the objects are totally different. Karuna takes the object who is satta in defect while mudita takes the object who is satta in prosperity. Karuna or mudita can arise in 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 3 pairs of upto 4 jhanas that is 3 1st jhana cittas, 3 2nd jhana cittas, 3 3rd jhana cittas and 3 4th jhana cittas. So there are 3 and 4 making 12 jhana cittas and 16 kamavacara cittas making in total 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita cetasika. There is a controversial on upekkha sahagatam cittas that is 4 upekkha sahagatam mahakusala cittas and 4 upekkha sahagatam mahakiriya cittas. Commentaries said as they are upekkha cittas they cannot be accompanied by karuna and mudita. So there are 12 jhana cittas, 4 mahakusala cittas, 4 mahakiriya cittas making 20 total cittas are accompanied by karuna and mudita. My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with karuna and mudita. In Brahmavihara, upto 4th jhana karuna or mudita can accompany. And in 5th jhana they do not arise. This is right. But in case of kamavacara mahakusala cittas, upekkha is just vedana or feeling and nothing to do with tatramajjhatta cetasika who serves jhana function while there is no sukha vedana and there is only upekkha vedana. There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38656 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta There is no 12 links at all." This is commonly called eel-wiggling in the suttas. And I realize that you won't recognizr it as such. But in many replies you have misrepresented what I said and changed things around to make yourself seem tto know better. This is not Dhamma. I will not respond to you again. Because of this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhante, This message shows your will. I did not misrepresent anything at all. According to DSG rules, I deleted unnecessary things. That is all. The problem is that you do not answer and you do not educate people here really. Instead you are introducing your new idea which The Buddha never preached. Like 'tension' 'tightness in mind and body' etc etc. I never take the position of Gurus or great teachers. I just simply discuss Dhamma in its realities. Nothing more than that. I do not advertise my site. I do not invite anyone to my place. I do not advise anyone to donate anything. I do not twist anything and do not twist anyone's message. There is no reason for me to show up that I know everything. These are useless. I never said angrily 'hey moderator, take me out your list'. I just sincerely discuss Dhamma and just share dhamma. What I see is you are always running away. First you appeared at triplegem many months ago but introducing 'I am a American Buddhist monks and I practised vipassana more than 30 years and so on. But soon you got angry with U Min Kyaw and said inappropriate and left for a while. Then join again and left and join again. At dhamma-list when you introduced the idea that there is 'tension' 'there is tightness in body and mind' and so on. I sincerely discussed with you but you ran away and disappeared again. Again, at Y-Happening Yahoo Group, you appeared and asked some questions and when you could not put through your idea then you withdrawed again from that site. Now recently you went round triplegem, dhamma-list and very recently joined DSG where abhidhamma is highly appreciated. You always say 'Suttas Suttas Suttas'. Only suttas are right and only suttas are The Buddha's words. But when Suttas are asked you never answer directly. Bhikkhus do have duties. One of them is to educate lay people especially bhikkhus have to teach what lay people never heard before. When there arise questions, these matters should be sorted out by Bhikkhus if these are Dhamma matters. I asked 8 vimokkhas. You did not answer. Now I understand who kind you are. May you accomplish you job. With much respect, Htoo Naing 38657 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Naresh, Welcome to the list. op 22-11-2004 04:51 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet and also going > on through the messages daily also i was going on > through nina van gorkom e-books , everybody has same > motto but different view about the enlightment. Nina: discussion is useful, than you can find out what suits you best. How do you feel about studying and reading suttas? How does it help you in daily life? What is your own experience? What is your purpose of the study? Does it answer questions you have about your life, your conduct towards others? What are the difficulties you are facing in your life? What do you think about death? Looking forward to your input, Nina. 38658 From: Hugo Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (was Re: Khanti is viriya ) Dear Sara, On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:14:56 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > S: Hmmm- haven't you heard that reading this discussion group is the > short-cut to nibbana??;-). That's what they told me in 5 other discussion groups. ;-) > Seriously, I'd recommend also dipping into the > vinaya, abhidhamma and commentaries - even just reading the brief > commentary notes B.Bodhi gives with some of his translations or the ones > he gives in full, such as with the Brahmajala Sutta which Andrew just > mentioned. Thanks for this and the rest of your recommendations, I will certainly try to read all that in this lifetime, I am trying a "balanced approach", basically, I read, once I think I understand something, I put it into practice, once I think I have mastered it to at least some degree, I read something more advanced or different and practice again......once I have mastered a few different things, I read things that other people have done or know, then I start the cycle again. Using an analogy my teacher gave me, and adding a little of my own, let's say that the goal is to prepare Spaguetti, the first time goes something like this: 1) Grab a few tomatoes, squash them into puree 2) Add some spices 3) Boil the pasta 4) Mix and serve You don't care very much about the ingredients, as long as they are more or less "standard" it is fine. Next time, you learn something about tomatoes, and try a specific kind of tomatoes. Next time, you learn something about spices, and try this and that, plus a different kind of tomatoes. Next time, you buy a different brand of pasta (the box you have been using, is probably already empty by now anyway). and so on.....until you can make a perfect Spaguetti! Other people like to go and learn everything about tomatoes, pasta, spices, water, boiling temperature, down to their chemical structure before trying to prepare the Spaguetti, and thats fine, but while I am not a cook by any length, I know that only one part of the secret of the success for a good recipe is the ingredients, the other part is the way it is prepared which relies on the hability of the cook. That reminds me the time I was cooking something and my wife admonished me because I was cooking the ingredients in the wrong order, she said that something (don't remember what) should be cooked first because it takes longer than the other ingredient. Which I think is also an excellent example that just throwing ingredients blindly into a pot won't make a good dish, you need also some knowledge about the ingredients. In summary, everything needs to be balanced. Right now I am in the phase of reading biographies and methods of practice (not only meditation, but everything that is involved in the practice, like where did they live, how did they leave, etc.) of famous and/or respectable monks because I figure that if they have spent dozens of years trying to reach Nibbana, they sure know something that will be useful for me. Plus the way they describe it is not so difficult to comprehend as they write about their life experiences from first-hand experience, well, sometimes it is second-hand as the writer is not the one who experienced it but a disciple. > In another post (which I can't find now), you mentioned that you planned > to start reading some abhidhamma I think. Yes, I intend to do it. I had already bookmarked some of the links you provided because I think it was Sukin (sorry I don't remember exactly who) had already gave some pointers to me. > You've made a great start with your contributions and I look forward to > reading more of them. Thanks, and thanks for your comments. > Do share anything else about your > background and interest too. (even a pic if you have one to spare for the > album on the homepage....). There you go, my cooking inhabilities revealed, but regarding a picture, I am the anonymous Buddhist. ;-) Greetings, -- Hugo 38659 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Bhante: > > Of course aniccan, dukkha and anatta are seen but it is a little > different than just seeing them by themselves. > > One of the reasons that I like the suttas so much > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Does that sound like clinging? > **** > Bhante: > Or does this sound like someone is attached to views other than the > suttas and vinaya that they try to distract from what is being said by > saying things like this? Please stop doing this it is not helpful or > proper to question me in this way! > _____________________ Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, you are quite correct that it is not proper to question you in such a way. The Buddha taught that one should not question another's dhamma practice, or make specific comments directed at a specific person. That is wrong speech, specifically disparaging: MN 139 "Aranavibhanga Sutta" 8. "And how, bhikkhus, does there come to be neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Dhamma? When one does not say: `All those engaged in the pursuit of the enjoyment of one whose pleasure is linked to sensual desires…have entered upon the wrong way,' but instead: `The pursuit is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way,' then one teaches only the Dhamma 1261… Note 1261: That is, extolling and disparaging come about when one frames one's statements in terms of persons, some of whom are praised and others blamed. One teaches "only the Dhamma" when one frames one's statements in terms of the state (dhamma) –the mode of practice-without explicit references to persons. Metta, James 38660 From: L.A. Uberstrasse Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, Concerning what Howard wrote: upasaka@a... wrote: With metta, Howard - who must now no longer meditate, no longer think, and for that matter, because of the scripture and authority problems, no longer study!! ;-) ------ KK AT the beginning of my journey, I considered this and decided that if I was going to figure out what the Buddha actually did in his experiment with meditation, I should attempt to figure out HOW things come up in our mind, grab hold of us, tear us appart and why they feel like an actual part of us. My goodness, I found I had been living is great delusion, as if in a dream! I truly wanted to see how this actually worked. The Buddha began his journey with such curiosity too I think and attempted to use as a guideline, observation of How the mind moves from one focal point to another, observing HOW things occured. He went to a couple of great teachers in His day and studied how to sit still and focus on an object and let thoughts that arose go and see what happened. But apparently this wasn't enough and he knew there was more to understand than just this. As I began my guiding teacher, who was Bhante Vimalaramsi, aksed us to simply observe HOW the mind moved and gradually listening to the suttas, we students began to try to observe without our own ideas involved. Not reading to begin with meant we didn't fill our minds with things to think about.Watching the movements without being involved was interesting to begin with. This was not easy to do by any means. It certainly began by "my" saying to "myself", 'Hm? Now how does this work with "ME". How does "MY" mind move? How do "I" observe. Etc..' Of course, in the beginning, I was not in touch with Anatta. It had not been presented to me yet. One is usually not in touch with the very impersonal nature of everything being viewed while going along in meditation. One is still dealing with a I,ME,MY,MINE in everything. Once Anatta was presented through the Suttas and consideration of an Impersonal nature began to take hold, actual perspective within the meditation and outside of the meditation in life began to swing into another position. This was a very interesting phenomena. Gross thinking, while living in delusion of Atta, is done by I.ME. But arising wisdom as a result of acquired knowledge through direct experience observing with an impersonal approach as much as possible occurs a little differently. Hard to describe. In Meditation, one sits and observes only what is occuring, moment by moment, then putting this observation into a file, goes back into meditation again and goes even deeper to what occured first, then before that, and then before that, continuing to file the information after which going to the guiding teacher, explaining the experience and then listening to a sutta is which a similar experience took place that would help confirm the progress moving in the right direction. Thinking in any analytical way such as dissecting what happened, then comparing it to a vast quantity of information and comments stored in one's mind from past reading of reat quantities of commentaries discussing what was meant by what someone said, someone said, someone said the Buddha menat would be far removed from the natural flow of discovery that should take place in this process of meditation. (In reading this I am not sure if I am getting it out clearly enough. I hope so. To say the least, it is a very different kind of experience.) In training I did not have prior experience in Buddhist meditation although I had been in Taiwan for three years and had studied aone form of one-pointed concentration in conjunction with Karate training. I had had other forms of concnetration training for intense focus in sports. Also I had spent two years with a sweatlodge in Virginia sitting for an hour at a time listening to teachings within the lodge. I did not have any reading background of any great nature, only some books handed to me on contemporary views of meditation today in this country. I had also spent a great deal of time living and working in the woods during my life at various times. Teh idea of being a forest recluse didn't frighten me as it would some folks. So here I was beginning to start studying meditation. Bhante Vimalaramsi was my teacher, first beginning in Washington. DC and then in Missouri at the center. In the beginning of my training I was asked to make a commitment NOT TO READ for one entire year minimum. I decided to comply. This probably helped me to begin with an empty cup. I had come to the Buddhist Vihara in Washington, DC at the beckoning of a dream after a distant friend had suggested I look into meditation. I had come with pure curiosity to discover what exactly the Buddha discovered with his experiments ( as I called them), to understand more about HOW mind actually works and to understand if, in fact, there truly was a way to greatly reduce or totally end suffering within this lifetime. I was going to give it a year! It has been over four years now. I am still here. I have been utterly fascinated by the connected nature of these teachings and the clarity with which they can be presented to a student if fully understood by a guiding teacher and how there doesn't seem to be any inconsistencies in the original discourses ( suttas ) concerning the meditation. The interconnectedness in them is clearly seen and very usable today if presented from the beginning in this interwoven way. Of course I balked at the idea of not reading some of the vast amounts of literature written about Buddhism ( including the commentaries) to begin with. But I now understand why not reading is of importance if wanting to repeat the experiment the Buddha performed as closely as possible. In the time of the Buddha, there was not writing and so no one of the folowers was going home and pouring over books. They were instead listening each evening to a subject of Dhamma, hearing it several times in repetition, and then going and meditating in the forest and "directly seeing" for themselves what the Buddha observed and had taught in this discourse or that, coming to there own direct conclusions. The Buddha's idea of teaching in this way was new at the time too. Direct experience, Direct Knowledge, Direct Wisdom, keeping only what was truly useful to the sutdent, that which led to happiness and calm in the direction of the path. The very idea of advice to not accept what a teacher said because he said it seemed preposterous at the time I imagine. The Buddha was stepping away from the idea that the teacher was like a God. You don't argue with a God. You just do it and accept it, even if it doesn't feel good and isn't consistent or contradicts other things the teacher said etc. So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get stuck. Contemplation of what was seen after a session is fine but a great deal of comparison with this and that commentary and other conclusions of other teachers along the way on what was seen leads us into time spent outside our own Direct knowledge and proceeding further. As adults it is very hard to accpet this. Younger students don't seem to have any problem with it. It is exciting to have observations within a session that match what happened within the suttas themselves or show up in the Vinaya and it's very encouraging, raising the level of the confidence for the student when this occurs. One of the best ways to observe things is to make a commitment to yourself to: 1) go to the pillow expecting nothing. Using the breath or Loving Kindness as a centering object of meditation, just observe what happens as things arise and pull your attention away from the object. Watch HOW it happens.Don't be concerned with what arose content wise. Look at the mechanics. 2) Observe more and more deeply what is happening first, before that, and before that as any phenomena arises. Each time something comes up, does it happen in the same way?? 3) Commit yourself to a totally impersonal view of what is occuring! Notice that "You" do not have ANYthing to do with HOW this is all occuring as it happens. This is the impersonal nature of HOW things work. This is the beginning of seeing things using the actual consequence of ANATTA ( Non-personality) Seeing in an IMPERSONAL way. This practice leads to the release of the PERSONAL way we see things while in Delusion. Great discoveries can come from this. As one masters this observation and makes discoveries along the way, eventually one begins to read the suttas one has been listening to. They then seem to burst out with new discoveries again for the student. As one continues to read in the second or third year or so, one finds a consistency in the writings one did not see before revealing the underlying NOble Truths and links of Dependent Origination and parts of the 8-Fold Path turning up with in each of the Suttas. It's truly remarkable. After the patterns are identified then going into the in depth treatises written on those suttas. I have to be off now and drive from VA to PA. MOre later hopefully Much Metta. KK 38661 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 132 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, 7 sabbacitta sadharana cetasikas, 6 pakinnaka cetasikas, 14 akusala cetasikas, 19 sabbasobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas, 3 virati cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas, altogether 7 + 6 + 14 + 19 + 3 + 2 = 51 cetasikas have been discussed in the way that they can arise with such and such citta. This is contemplation from the site of cetasika and this method is called sampayoga. Sam means 'well' and yoga means 'associate' 'parallel' 'mix'. So each cetasika can arise in those stated cittas. There left one cetasika which is the most important. Without it magga nana never arises. Without it jhana never arises. This cetasika is called pannindriya cetasika or simply 'panna'. Panna can arise with 47 cittas or 89 cittas. All these 47 cittas are called tihetuka cittas. They are 12 nana sampayutta kama sobhana cittas, 1) 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas 2) 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka cittas 3) 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas ~~ 12 nana sampayutta cittas. 15 rupavacara cittas 1) 5 rupakusala cittas 2) 5 rupavipaka cittas 3) 5 rupakiriya cittas 12 arupavacara cittas 1) 4 arupakusala cittas 2) 4 arupavipaka cittas 3) 4 arupakiriya cittas 8 lokuttara cittas 1) 4 magga cittas 2) 4 phala cittas 12 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 47 cittas are all called tihetuka cittas. Because they all have 3 hetus namely alobha, adosa, and amoha. Amoha hetu is pannindriya cetasika or panna. Apart from these 47 cittas, other 42 cittas can never arise with panna or panna cannot arise in 42 non-tihetuka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38662 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:28pm Subject: Only transient Representations ... !!! Friends: Can one trust Transience ? Buddha once said: Ananda, any form, in which one delights, will cause sadness, when it unavoidably changes!! Realistically everything -internal as external- is just changing forms, passing appearances, transient processes, evanescent phenomena, temporary images, fleeting manifestations, ephemeral representations all empty & void of substance, self, identity, satisfaction & safety... A miserable mass of pain & danger! Nibbana is the sweet & certain alternative !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38663 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:03pm Subject: Re: Only transient Representations ... !!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > > Can one trust Transience ? > Buddha once said: > > Ananda, any form, in which one delights, will > cause sadness, when it unavoidably changes!! > > Realistically everything -internal as external- > is just changing forms, passing appearances, > transient processes, evanescent phenomena, > temporary images, fleeting manifestations, > ephemeral representations all empty & void > of substance, self, identity, satisfaction & > safety... A miserable mass of pain & danger! > > Nibbana is the sweet & certain alternative !!! > Friendship is the Greatest ! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, When are you going up mountain again? This time it will be so cold. Take care. With respect, Htoo Naing 38664 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > *****Bhante > If you have read some of my earlier post you would have seen the Craving > manifests as a tension or tightness in both the mind and body. Craving is > the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this > tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of > relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts > (clinging) in it. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even > when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of > absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the > Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental > formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". > > That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body > is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a > personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done > many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying > with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period > of time the real benefits will become apparent. > > Maha-Metta > always > Bhante Vimalaramsi Bhante Vimalaramsi, Venerable Sir, I came across a sutta reference which may further support your position on the importance of tranquility: MN144 "Channaovada Sutta" 11. When this was said, the venerable Maha Cunda said to the venerable Channa: "Therefore, friend Channa, this instruction of the Blessed One is to be constantly given attention: `There is wavering in one who is dependent, there is no wavering in one who is independent; when there is no wavering, there is tranquility; when there is tranquility, there is no bias; when there is no bias, there is no coming and going; when there is no coming and going, there is no passing away and reappearing; when there is no passing away and reappearing, there is no here nor beyond nor in between. This is the end of suffering. Metta, James 38665 From: Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi, KK - I am replying only to one point of your post, KK. In a message dated 11/22/04 4:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, khantikhema@y... writes: > So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and > discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get stuck. ======================= Of course. There is no doubt in my mind about this. My post, written with tongue in cheek, was ironically addressing the opposite extreme, the error of not thinking over matters at all, utterly dismissing our ability-to-consider as something that is nothing but dangerous just because of the possibility of error and misinterpretation. (Likewise for meditation - to dismiss it just because of the possibility of misinterpreting meditative experience.) With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38666 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections Hi Azita, ------------------------- Az: > mostly, our every day life is full of 'control' - at home, at work, on the road - ummmm, I sound like a control freak!, but you know what I mean, I hope. We are actively encouraged by society to be 'in control of ourselves and our behaviour', and on that conventional level, it's not such a bad thing. > --------------------------- I think I know what you mean by, "it's not such a bad thing" Even when we are acting the way society expects, it is generally out of vanity or timidity or some other akusala reason, but we could do worse. :-) Sometimes, of course, a person's 'socially acceptable' behaviour conceals a truly evil state of mind. We can never be sure. Concepts have no inherent nature or substance, and so the conventional story means nothing. --------------------------- Az: > To really understand the no control aspect of life, is heaps more difficult - I need lots of reminders. > --------------- That reminds me of something else you wrote recently. At the time I thought it was rhetorical (a reminder), but it may have been a genuine question (a call for reminder) :-) You wrote: --------------------- > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that instant? > ------------ Normally, the cetasika that constitutes speech (verbal action) is cetana (as is also the case with mental and bodily action). But the three abstinences, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, are cetasikas in their own right. I won't explain further. I need a few reminders myself. :-) You continued: ---------- > All of a sudden, the importance of this Noble 8-fold path occurred to me. I hadn't felt this before. Are these factors in order, or is it just that something has to begin the list? For example, right view comes first on the list, do we have to have r.v. first before any of the others arise? > ------------- Yes! Even though the eight Path Factors (along with other kusala cetasikas) all arise in the same moment, right view is the forerunner. It conditions the others to arise with it (by somethingorother condition), and then they all support each other (by co-nascent condition). I hope that helps. Ken H 38667 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, When the Buddha said all sankhata dhammas are dukkha he was speaking in general, conventional terms. In the precise, ultimate sense dukkha means object of dosa. I can tell from here, half way around the world, you are dissatisfied with this concept. Concepts are dukkha. Larry ps: "Conditioned" is not a good translation of sankhata. A closer sense would be "made". As we will see when we get to sankhara cetasikas in Visuddhimagga the meaning of this "made" is "put together". "Sankhata" does not mean dependently arisen or conditioned (paccaya). This compoundedness is an appearance only (nimitta) and is the basis of all error. It is wrongly interpreted as "one" or "wholeness". Sankhara cetasikas "form" all dhammas including concept, but not nibbana, into apparent compounds. The nexus of this phenomenon is the prefix "sam" meaning "with". "With" is the heart of the matter. There is no real "with". I can tell by the expression on your face this concept also is dukkha. L. 38668 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings James, I appreciate what you have said very much. When I was in Burma I was known a Sayadawji and did a some teaching there and gave discourses which were always respectfully accepted. The Sayadaws there always were given vast amounts of respect even if what was said didn't agree with their own ideas of Dhamma. It is nice to see that you have that same kind of respect. May you always be well and happy, may you attain Nibbana quickly and easily in this life! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38669 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Thank you very much >Craving is > the "I Like it... I don't like it mind" So when you let go of this > tension or tightness in both mind and body there is a short period of > relief where mind is very calm and tranquil without any thoughts > (clinging) in it. Thanks to your encouragement, I have found myself doing this in the last few days. I have experienced the momentary tranquility you are referring to. If you do not let go of this tension or tightness even > when you are doing the BU---DHO method you are practicing a form of > absorption concentration. Please remember that the instructions in the > Anapanasati Sutta say "to tranquilize the bodily formation and the mental > formation on the in breathe and the out breathe". > > That short break that you may feel after tranquilizing the mind and body > is the direct release of craving and the false idea that there is a > personal self. In order to gain any benefit from this it must be done > many, many times, Why? Because of our habitual tendencies of identifying > with the hindrances when they arise. But when done patiently for a period > of time the real benefits will become apparent. Now I can see what you meant. In those moments of release of tension there was certainly a sense of detachment. We do identify with the hindrances. My ill-will or sloth become dominant - there is so much proliferating about them. The practice you are offering will gradually help, I'm sure. Also, it occured to me that while I said that reflecting on realities seemed more helpful to me, the reflecting can only arise when there is calm. On the other hand, I will want to think about the implications of seeking this release from tension whenever it arises. There can be much lobha involved. But the middle way comes in here as everywhere. I found this sutta passage today which reminded me of this thread: "Driven only by fear, do many go for refuge to many places. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddhas penetrates with transcedental wisdom the four noble truths. This indeed is the refuge supreme." (sorry, I can't provide a reference.) I think there is a danger that beginners like myself would use tranquility merely as a way to escape from temporal discomfort, but with the guidance of a good teacher like yourself there would be the setting of conditions for further insight into the four noble truths. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 38670 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > If a non-Buddhist reflects on the shortness of life - this thought > > is accompanied by panna. > > k: Sorry boss, Buddha's panna must be anatta and not anicca or > dukkha . See Dispeller of Deplusion (forget which part) that only > with the arisen of Buddha then Anatta would be known to the > worldings. Only through anatta, then there is cessation of birth. ===== Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non-Buddhists & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. ===== > > > If a non-Buddhist reflects that good deeds bear good results - this > thought is accompanied by panna (even if the non-Buddhist > > attributes this "justice" to an all-knowing God). > > k: Nope this thought is not accompanied by panna as I told you in an > earlier email and kusala behaviour only leads to kusala kamma and not > cessation of birth. If this kind of behaviour can lead to salvation, > there is already a lot of enlighted Arahants during Buddha time > without Buddha teaching, for eg his two teachers before he was > enlighted who both attain high levels of jhanas. ===== It is true that kusala thoughts (with or without panna) lead to kusala kamma and not cessation of rebirth. Ken, we seem to be talking on different frequencies. Please help me to understand your point better. It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with paticcasamuppada through panna. Metta, Rob M :-) 38671 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, I am very happy that you are trying the method that I suggested. As you do this more and more the insights will deepen and your confidence will grow. Good work. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38672 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca. Ken O 38673 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:34pm Subject: Reply to Naresh Hi Naresh, You have replied to my DSG message to my email address. That is fine if the discussion is confidential. However, I am choosing to respond to your reply on DSG because you have asked good questions and it would help other people (there are a lot of "lurkers" on DSG who read but do not particiapte often). Replying on DSG also gives other DSG members a chance to chip in their two cents worth. You wrote: As you described the meditation should be practised with qualified teacher, but where do one find one and till you get one what should one go through, is reading theory is enough to understand? My answer: You can probably find a meditation teacher through your local Buddhist temple. Some people find it useful to join in a short meditation retreat (2 - 3 days) during a vacation time. You should read and discuss the dhamma as much as possible (through DSG and other sources). You won't attain enlightenment reading DSG :-), but the background you get from reading and discussing the dhamma on DSG can be of great spiritual value to you. You asked: How will this help in profesional life with lots of complications? My answer: Studying the Dhamma will change your perspective. It is your perspective that guides your thoughts. Your speech and actions are a reflection of your thoughts. Results (professional or personal) come from your actions. You talk of professional life with lots of complications. What role has your own mind played in building up these complications? How much time does your mind spend thinking about these complications (things that are outside your ability to influence) versus thinking about what you need to do now? Studying the Dhamma and practicing the dhamma will help clear your mind so you can be more effective in your daily life. Metta, Rob M :-) 38674 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings again Phil, Your concern about the lobha is not a real problem. There is a kind of wholesome desire called Chanda in Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this word as zeal and is used to describe Venerable Sariputta's experience while he was meditating in every jhana. I am not suggesting that you need to sit in meditation, you will do that whenever you feel it is the right time. All I am saying is this wholesome desire is needed to point your mind in the right direction. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38675 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Rob M > ===== > Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non-Buddhists > & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. > ===== k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right view. Rob M: It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with paticcasamuppada through panna. k: Panna is not about anicca and dukkha, it is about Anatta :) Anicca and dukkha are visible, many great non-Buddhist teachers have high level understanding of these two characteristics but these do not lead to cessation of birth so it is not panna per se. k: By the way, the law of kamma is link in D.O. (after moha) Ken O 38676 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Htoo, Thank you very much. Where can I find 'sacca- > vimutti dhamma'? I still incline to see even lokuttara cittas as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. The Sutta (Kindred s. IV) says: what is impermanent is dukkha. Nina. op 22-11-2004 12:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and > impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. > They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- > vimutti dhamma'. 38677 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Htoo, op 22-11-2004 18:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita > cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with > karuna and mudita. N: Yes. We think of the conventional term sympathetic joy, but it is not pleasant feeling. I agree with you. Ht: There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in > detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts > confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not > penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. N: See Visuddhimagga, IV, about ten kinds of upekkha. It can also stand for viriya or pañña. Different aspects. See also Atthasalini, Book I, part IV, Ch III, 172. Nina. 38678 From: plnao Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Hello again Bhante Vimalaramsi > Your concern about the lobha is not a real problem. There is a kind of > wholesome desire called Chanda in Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this > word as zeal and is used to describe Venerable Sariputta's experience > while he was meditating in every jhana. I am not suggesting that you need > to sit in meditation, you will do that whenever you feel it is the right > time. All I am saying is this wholesome desire is needed to point your > mind in the right direction. Thank you for the encouragement, Bhante. Last evening I used the word chanda to describe the desire I felt to buy one of Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta anthologies. I feel such a strong desire to have one that I have been holding off from ordering it in the belief that I was too hungry for it, that there was too much attachment to the idea of mastering a knowledge of suttas. But with a DSG friend's encouragement, I ordered the book today. I guess there is both chanda and a less wholesome desire (accompanied by conceit) involved in my desire for that book. These wholesome and unwholesome cittas come and go in an unpredictable, uncontrollable way - in the short run, at least. It would be a mistake to think that there is only wholesome desire involved, I think. And I suspect the same thing applies to beginners in meditation - which isn't to say that they should give up meditation because of this. I appreciate the way your presence at DSG is encouraging me to look at formal meditation again. I think now that I have a beginner's grasp of Abhidhamma, any formal meditation I do in the future will be more beneficial than if I didn't know Abhidhamma, as will any sutta study I do be deepened by my growing knowledge of Abhidhamma. (I would disagree with your statement some days back to Nina that "Abhidhamma concepts" are not helpful. Abhidhamma is always helpful, in all areas of Dhamma, I firmly believe, with a faith rooted in examined experience.) Metta, Phil 38679 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > ===== > > Now I am getting really confused. I was talking about non- Buddhists > > & anicca and you are talking about the Buddha & anatta. > > ===== > > k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, > neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna > will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right > view. > > > Rob M: It seems that you are trying to link the law of kamma with > paticcasamuppada through panna. > > k: Panna is not about anicca and dukkha, it is about Anatta :) > Anicca and dukkha are visible, many great non-Buddhist teachers have > high level understanding of these two characteristics but these do > not lead to cessation of birth so it is not panna per se. Perhaps I have misunderstood your point, but I checked Dhammasangani (para 16), Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 143) and Atthasalini (page 161 - 162) and I read it differently. For example, the Atthasalini specifically includes all three characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). The clearest explanation of panna that I have found is in Nina's book, Cetasikas (Chapter 34, pages 317 - 323) which is available on-line as an e-book. Can you help me to understand better by pointing to some other texts to which I can refer to better understand your point? Metta, Rob M :-) 38680 From: naresh gurwani Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi Pls share your method with us also with regards to meditation on breath. We are new to the DSG group. Naresh Gurwani --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > I am very happy that you are trying the method that > I suggested. As you > do this more and more the insights will deepen and > your confidence will > grow. Good work. > 38681 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections/Sanna Hello KenH. Yes, it was a genuine question. Your answer is quite clear for me. I kind of know that the 8fold path is 8 cetasikas and with this half-baked knowledge I have, of much of the Dhamma, sometimes I feel really puzzled about aspects of it. Another one is about Sanna. [seeing as how Sarah is now posting on Sanna]. If Sanna arises with ea. citta and marks just that object of that citta, how come we get this whole mass of thoughts,ideas, dreams etc. More to the point, how come these thoughts & ideas hang together & give us the impresion that all is well, eg. that things aren't completely scrambled and we don't know what we're doing from one moment to the next .....ummm now that I've written that I'm beginning to see how funny it all is. You see, last nite I washed and brushed and set off for a nite shift at the hospital only to discover when I got there, I wasn't even rostered on!!!!!!! My workmates laughed, called me a d...head and told me to go out and get drunk...scarey when you think we are let loose on the public, to care for the sick and dying! This is also a genuine question KenH, despite the side-track. I somehow think I have asked this ques. before, so obviously I don't get it. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Azita, ......snip..... > That reminds me of something else you wrote recently. At the time I > thought it was rhetorical (a reminder), but it may have been a > genuine question (a call for reminder) :-) You wrote: > > --------------------- > > I understand that these 8 factors are cetasikas, they arise and > fall away very quickly, and if they are cetasikas, how can there be > Right Speech when there is really 'no time' for speech in that > instant? > > ------------ > > Normally, the cetasika that constitutes speech (verbal action) is > cetana (as is also the case with mental and bodily action). But the > three abstinences, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, > are cetasikas in their own right. > > I won't explain further. I need a few reminders myself. :-) ....snip.... > Ken H 38682 From: Andrew Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India reflections/Sanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] If Sanna arises with ea. citta and marks just that object > of that citta, how come we get this whole mass of thoughts,ideas, > dreams etc. More to the point, how come these thoughts & ideas hang > together & give us the impresion that all is well, eg. that things > aren't completely scrambled and we don't know what we're doing from > one moment to the next. Hi Azita Fear not. Your question will be raised, discussed and answered at Cooran the weekend after next. I think I know the answer already but will have to think of a way to express it without drawing too many KenH-objections i.e. how to avoid the word "conventional". (-: Stay tuned!! Pity your work commitments (real and imagined) mean you can't make it! (-: Even Rusty is coming this time! Take care Andrew 38683 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Mike (Sukin, Dan, KenO & All), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks Sarah, I think these are good citations for this thread and ones > I hadn't had time to dig up. In the case of the Kitagiri Sutta do you > think the 'reflective understanding' is conceptual…. …. S: I’m not sure which translation of the Kitagiri sutta you’re using. Is ‘reflective understanding’ 'dhammà nijjhàna.m khamanti' in the text below? Usually where it gives 'he memorizes', I think the Pali is 'upaparikkhati' which according to the Buddhadatta dictionary, means 'he investigates or he examines'. For 'nijjhaayati', this dictionary gives 'he reflects'. I am not familiar enough with the Pali to know whether it is conceptual or not necessarily so. From the PTS Pali dict: Nijjhayati1 (p. 356) [Sk. nidhyayati, ni+jhayati1] to meditate, reflect, think S III.140 sq. (+passati, cp. janati), 157; M I.334 (jhayati n. apajjhayati); III.14 (id.). Cp. upa°. Perhaps you can give us your comments or translation of the key Pali terms in the passage, Mike! Btw (and as a diversion from the main thread), of interest is a line in MN50 referring to a group of ascetics with wrong view and practice (BB transl here) which uses the same word nijjhaayati, I think: …. “‘These bald-pated recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman’s feet, claim: “We are meditators, we are meditators!” and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate. "Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, waiting for a mouse, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, so too, these bald-pated recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman’s feet, claim: “We are meditators, we are meditators!” and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate.’" *** The Pali for these terms used here is ‘jhaayanti, pajjhaayanti, *nijjhaayanti*, apajjhaayanti’. See also MN108 which uses the same terms in: “‘What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here Brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates…’” *** It continues with a description of ‘the meditation of one whose mind is obsessed by the five hindrances’, to quote from B.Bodhi’s note. Back to the Kitagiri sutta (where of course the Pali terms are referring to ‘samma’ ditthi) – all I can say is that the passage is a description of suta mayaa pa~n~naa, cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa, as I see it, which Sukin referred to in his recent helpful post on pa~n~naa to Bhante V. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38585 These are all kinds of pa~n~naa/samma di.t.thi, but only the latter refers to the development of satipatthana which is not conceptual. The pin-pointing is not as important as the understanding that these three kinds of samma ditthi reinforce each other. Without hearing/listening/having ‘wise’ access to the teachings (suta mayaa pa~n~naa), there won’t be any wise reflection (cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa). Without the latter, there won’t be any development of the path (bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa). Wise reflection here is the wise consideration about concepts of dhammas (i.e namas and rupas) such as now while we talk. ..... M:>….and that the concept > might be a decisive support condtion (upanissaya paccaya*) for > satipa.t.thaana or even maggacitta? I think this is more or less the > way I've been thinking about it. If so it hardly matters whether it's > called 'sammaadi.t.thi' or not, it is conceptual, unique to the > Buddhadhamma and priceless, or so it seems to me. ..... S: I couldn’t agree more with you and all your comments. I’ve always understood sammaadi.t.thi and pa~n~naa to be synonyms. Suan and I went through some passages in the Vibhanga (2nd Abhidhamma text). For example, here, under ‘anupassati’ : 357. Anupassitiiti. Tatha katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa….pe..am oho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi – aya.m vuccati “anupassanaa”…. PTS transl: 357. ‘contemplating’ means: Therein what is contemplation? That which is wisdom, understanding, …..absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation…. *** Of course there are many kinds of pa~n~naa (as referred to in Vism XIV,1) and degrees too. When it refers to sammaadi.t.thi of the fivefold or eightfold path, we all agree there is nothing conceptual about it. A couple more ‘gems’ for you which support your comment above nicely: From Sammohavinodanii 1008,(translated as ‘Dispeller of Delusion, comy to the Vibhanga, PTS, Classification of the Structure of Conditions): “After stating it in many divisions For profitable, unprofitable and indeterminate states, Again, however, by the Best of Speakers The structure of conditions is stated in single manner only By way of decisive support [condition] In regard to result of the profitable and unprofitable, For the purpose of producing the variety Of knowledge about “which states are condition for which”, And [so] since the variety of knowledge Regarding that will never come about in those in whom Is found lacking the Order [of Succession] Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) [Therefore] in accordance with the Order Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice The wise act always in regard thereto For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done.” Of course, we also read in other passages and texts about the importance of right reflection. For example, in the same text under the Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness, we read about the six things which lead to the abandoning of ill-will: “1) the acquiring of the sign of amity, 2) devotion to the development of amity, 3) reviewing ownership of kamma, 4) *much reflection*, 5) good friendship, 6) suitable talk.” ***** Metta, Sarah *Katha¤ca bhikkhave anupubbasikkhà anupubbakiriyà anupubbapañipadà a¤¤àràdhanà hoti: idha bhikkhave saddhàjàto upasaïkamati, upasaïkamanto payirupàsati, payirupàsanto sotaü odahati, ohitasoto dhammaü suõàti, sutvà dhammaü dhàreti, dhatànaü dhammànaü atthaü upaparikkhati, atthaü upaparikkhato dhammà nijjhànaü khamanti, dhammanijjhànakkhantiyà sati chando jàyati, chandajàto ussahati, ussahitvà tuleti, tulayitvà padahati, pahitatto samàno kàyena ceva paramaü saccaü sacchikaroti, pa¤¤àya ca naü pañivijjha passati. *** MN 70 (Kitagiri Sutta)[Bodhi translation as provided by Ken O) <> ============================ 38684 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:18am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 56 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (c) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** Saññå is not the same as citta which is the ‘leader’ in cognizing an object. As we have seen, saññå recognizes the object and it ‘marks’ it so that it can be recognized again. This is explained by way of a simile: carpenters put tags or signs on logs so that they can recognize them at once by means of these marks. This simile can help us to understand the complex process of recognizing or remembering. What we in conventional language call “remembering” consists of many different moments of citta and each of these moments of citta is accompanied by saññå which connects past experiences with the present one and conditions again recognition in the future. This connecting function is represented by the words ‘recognition’ and ‘marking’(1). When the present experience has fallen away it has become past and what was future becomes the present, and all the time there is saññå which performs its function so that an object can be recognized. *** 1) See Abhidhamma Studies, by the Ven. Nyanaponika, 1976, page 70, where it is explained that the making of marks and remembering is included in every act of perception. ***** [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38685 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > > The ti-lakkhana are characteristics *of* realities, Dan. There cannot > be > > an understanding of impermanence, non-self or unsatisfactoriness apart > > from the reality appearing right now, *except* as a concept that is > > thought about rightly or wrongly. > > > ======================= H:> How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing > right > now"? ….. S: There can only be any seeing of impermanence of a reality after wisdom has developed enough, after having clearly understood its nama-quality or rupa-quality. For example: visible object. After wisdom clearly understands directly the reality of v.o. – just that which is seen-, it can become more and more refined and precise, by directly understanding many different realities appearing in different processes. ….. >Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > impermanence > witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > there is no > cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? …. Each dhamma has an arising and a falling. Panna precisely understands the impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe. Now we can only think about it or think about cessation of dhammas, but the characteristic of these realities can be developed in the way and order described in the texts. …. > If so, > what sort of dhamma is that, and does it, itself, have an initiation and > a > cessation? …. At what you call the moment of cessation, there is another citta arising, experiencing another object. For example, in deep sleep it may seem like there is nothing, but there are bhavanga cittas and then we wake up and sound is heard or visible object seen. Highly developed panna can know the arising and falling away, the impermanence of that visible object or sound. …. > The point of the foregoing is to point out that there are > problems > with a strict "momentary view". Such a view is yet one more conceptual > overlay or > filter of reality, as I see it. I do not think that any such conceptual > scheme reveals reality. I think it obscures it. …. Because there is so little awareness or any awareness is of such an elementary nature for most of us, it sounds conceptual (it is conceptual!) when we read about developed panna. But even now, when there is awareness, there can be an understanding of one reality appearing briefly and then its gone. Visible object doesn’t stay, nor does sound, nor does dosa or feeling or any other reality. Slowly as awareness and understanding grow, the ‘momentary view’ filters through or sinks in and there begins to be more and more understanding of the distinction between what is real and experienced momentarily and what is a mere figment of the imagination. I’m not sure if this helps. I think it’s good to know that what we used to take for being some understanding of impermanence is only thinking about it and not the very precise understanding of dhammas. Metta, Sarah ======= 38686 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Howard, Sorry for another delay! Thank you for responding to one of the Questions! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > > experience an object? > > > ======================== > This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as > a > subject, and it is experiencing an object > This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the > way > things seem to be. …. S: No, but then the Dhamma goes against the current of wordly view. It’s the island in the sea of concepts and conceptual truths. The way things ‘seem to be’ usually is a reflection of our accumulated ignorance and so we need to listen/consider a lot from the teachings;-). …. >The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether > pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event > arising from > sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself > a thing > which experiences. ….. S: The way things seem to be too is that seeing consciousness last, it’s light all the time, pleasant feeling is very satisfactory and there’s a self behind it all…. In fact feeling is a nama which only ever experiences its object, *except* when it is the object of cittas in a mind-door process. When it is an object and when sati arises, its characteristic of that which ‘tastes an object’ can be known. By also being aware of rupas which are experienced by various sense door cittas, the distinction can be clearly known. ….. > When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of > work > feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a > direct > result of the bodily sensation of warmth. …. S: The warmth rupa is one condition for the bodily experience accompanied by pleasant feeling. For vipaka to occur (the bodily experience and accompanying mental factors are vipaka), there has to be kamma condition too. Also body-sense….. …. >Are you folks saying that when > it > seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that > a > knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that > function is a > type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? … S: Yes. It accompanies the body consciousness which experiences ‘warmth’ and is a pleasant (bodily) feeling. But this is so very brief and usually followed by many mind door processes where cittas accompanied by pleasant (mental) feeling experience that same object and concepts about it. [Of course, both the mental and bodily feelings here are namas]. ….. >That is, a pleasant > feeling > is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular > way? …. S:Yes, in the body-sense door process, pleasant feeling experiences the rupas along with the cittas it accompanies.. …. > We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly > never > ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask > someone, > however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing > pleasantness, > unpleasantness, or neutrality. …. S: Usually we ask how *someone* is, how *they* feel etc. We don’t need to change our language, but it helps a lot to understand the cittas, cetasikas and rupas and to see that there’s nothing else at all. One world for a moment and then gone. Someone may be sick, but at a moment of understanding or metta or bodily pleasant feeling, there’s no sickness at all. …. > It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is > simply > the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, > much > as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door > object. > So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds > of > experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. …. S: So when we talk about feeling as a mind-door object, usually it’s merely a concept – not any reality. This is why we have to clearly differentiate namas from rupas from concepts, I believe. ….. >But > Abhidhamma > apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a > > pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the > taste has the > property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, > pleasantness > becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the > ice-cream taste > is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is > simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that > correct? …. S: Yes. I think that when you read the suttas again, you’ll begin to see there isn’t any distinction between what they say and the Abhidhamma says. For example, SN 36, Vedana Samyutta, 22(2) the Theme of the Hundred and Eight, explains different classifications of feelings. To take just a couple here: “And what, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of feelings? Bodily and mental….” “And what, bhikkhus, are the five kinds of feelings? The pleasure faculty, the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity faculty….” “And what , bhikkhus, are the six kinds of feelings? Feeling born of eye-contact……mind-contact…..” ***** Please let me know if anything isn't clear here. I appreciate your following of the Cetasikas thread and your comments on other threads. Metta, Sarah p.s Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes well. ======= 38687 From: plnao Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Sarah, and all I missed this when it was posted but caught it in your reply to Howard. I haven't been able to apply myself to this thread as much as I had hoped but maybe flopping a self-test will get me going! > Questions > > i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > experience an object? I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right answer. > ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have > something in common. What is the characteristic they have > in common? They are nama? They are not rupa? > iii Feeling accompanies every citta. Can any kind of feeling > accompany all cittas? No. For example, body-sense which is vipaka cannot be accompanied by neutral feeling. And unpleasant mental feeling cannot accompany kusala vipaka. > > iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of > unpleasant feeling? Yes. I would guess that feeling is the cetasika that everyone *can* know, not that everyone *does* know. > v Why is body-consciousness (kåya-viññåùa) never > accompanied by indifferent feeling? Something to do with that anvil and the cotton puff. > vi Which jåti is painful bodily feeling? akusala vipaka. > vii Which jåti is unhappy feeling (domanassa)? akusala kamma > > viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the > body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa > arise which cognize that unpleasant object? Interesting question! I would say no, for worldlings. How could the arising of unpleasant mental feeling in response to unpleasant tangible object be circumvented if one is not enlightened? There can be a much quicker return to kusala cittas that consider the impermanence of the vipaka, but right away? Well, that was a good exercise to remind myself that I have been neglecting this thread. No need to send the answers along. I will reread the chapter and grade myself. If any of the questions remain unclear I will ask. Thanks always, Sarah, for posting the book. Metta, Phil p.s I will be returning to the "evil thoughts" thread tomorrow or the day after. Thanks again all for your feedback. 38688 From: Suravira Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:45am Subject: The Five Aggregates TV Script For those interested in providing feedback on a TV script to be produced for broadcast, please visit: http://deerparksangha.org/TheFiveAggregates.htm I look forward to your responses. With metta, Suravira 38689 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Ken (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/22/04 11:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Larry > > Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca. > > > > Ken O > ========================== It is true, IMO, that concepts don't experience anicca, but it is an odd thing to say. Here is my take on this: If, by concept, we mean a merely imagined thing [i.e., just the sense or intended referent of a thought/idea such as a tree or house, as opposed to an actually experienced phenomenon such as hardness or sound], then there *is* no concept to do *anything*, including to experience or to actually *be* experienced. If, on the other hand, by concept, we mean not the sense of a thought or idea, but the thought or idea itself, or, perhaps better, the "thinking", which is mind-door content (arammana), then a concept in this second sense does not experience anicca because *it does not experience* - it is not an experiencer, but it arises and ceases as an element of experience, and it is impermanent (anicca). When "I am thinking of a tree", the thoughts, themselves, experience nothing - they just arise and fall as mind-door objects - they are anicca - they are actual, fleeting, mental phenomena, and "the tree being thought of" is merely imagined, which is really to say the "tree that is thought of" does not exist at all, in any way. I look out the window right now and "see" a tree. In fact, what arises is visual object, then mental object "tree thinking", and that is all. No actual tree is either seen or cognized. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38690 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 11/22/04 11:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > k: Ok I am saying that anicca does not lead to cessation of birth, > neither does the knowledge of dukkha or kamma. The only way panna > will develop is through Anatta, so non-Buddhist has no mundane right > view. > ====================== I have heard tell there are three doors to liberation, the doorways of anicca (signless liberation), dukkha (wishless liberation), and anatta (voidness liberation), and walking through one opens the others. It happens that Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca doorway. But there are three doors, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38691 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/23/04 4:04:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >======================= > H:> How is there a seeing of impermanance of "the reality appearing > >right > >now"? > ….. > S: There can only be any seeing of impermanence of a reality after wisdom > has developed enough, after having clearly understood its nama-quality or > rupa-quality. > > For example: visible object. After wisdom clearly understands directly the > reality of v.o. – just that which is seen-, it can become more and more > refined and precise, by directly understanding many different realities > appearing in different processes. > ….. > >Only with the seeing of the cessation of that dhamma is > >impermanence > >witnessed. But when the dhamma is no longer present, having ceased, > >there is no > >cessation to be aware of. Is there then a separate moment of cessation? > …. > Each dhamma has an arising and a falling. Panna precisely understands the > impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the > developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe. > =========================== I see you as answering my rhetorical question "How is there a seeing of impermanance of 'the reality appearing right now'? " by the last sentence of yours I quote above, namely "Panna precisely understands the impermanence of the reality while it is appearing as a result of the developed awareness of many different realities in succession, I believe," and this means to me that impermanence is understood only by examining a succession of realities, not a single one. Impermanence is "not remaining", and for that to be seen, cessation must have occurred. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38692 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Phil, Here is a kind of guideline to see if you are following chanda or lobha. Hope it is helpful. When you yourselves know: ’These things are good; these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.' One of the things I look to see in a meditator is if they have a strong desire to really understand the Buddha's Path. The stronger it is, I have found the faster and better the practice progresses. Because they want to see for themselves whether or not this Buddha's teachings is really the way to liberation. It does take this strong type of curiosity and effort to keep mind pointed in this direction. That is chanda! Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38693 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 53-Fe eling/Vedana (z) Hi, Sarah - This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, and of unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three modes of mental processing of experiences, is interesting. Evidently, then, any particular sense-door object "calls forth" exactly one of these operations. (Are there no other conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that there must be multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) But, in any case, this operation-function-processing view of feelings is quite interesting. I copy below your post without additional comments of mine. With regard to your postscript "Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes well," I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. Tomorrow I go for a thalium stress test. My expectation is that the results will be completely negative, as I'm feeling fine now. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/23/04 4:47:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for another delay! Thank you for responding to one of the > Questions! > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >> Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > >>experience an object? > >> > >======================== > > This is interesting. In this question we having feeling acting as > >a > >subject, and it is experiencing an object > > This is not the way people usually speak, and it is also not the > >way > >things seem to be. > …. > S: No, but then the Dhamma goes against the current of wordly view. It’s > the island in the sea of concepts and conceptual truths. The way things > ‘seem to be’ usually is a reflection of our accumulated ignorance and so > we need to listen/consider a lot from the teachings;-). > …. > >The way things seem to be is that a feeling, whether > >pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality, is always a mental event > >arising from > >sense-door contact with an object, typically experienced, but not itself > >a thing > >which experiences. > ….. > S: The way things seem to be too is that seeing consciousness last, it’s > light all the time, pleasant feeling is very satisfactory and there’s a > self behind it all…. > > In fact feeling is a nama which only ever experiences its object, *except* > when it is the object of cittas in a mind-door process. When it is an > object and when sati arises, its characteristic of that which ‘tastes an > object’ can be known. By also being aware of rupas which are experienced > by various sense door cittas, the distinction can be clearly known. > ….. > > When we say that the warmth of a tub entered after a hard day of > >work > >feels pleasant, what we mean is that mind experiences pleasantness as a > >direct > >result of the bodily sensation of warmth. > …. > S: The warmth rupa is one condition for the bodily experience accompanied > by pleasant feeling. For vipaka to occur (the bodily experience and > accompanying mental factors are vipaka), there has to be kamma condition > too. Also body-sense….. > …. > >Are you folks saying that when > >it > >seems that a pleasant feeling occurs, what is actually happening is that > >a > >knowing mental function called "pleasant feeling" occurs, and that > >function is a > >type of elementary, emotive knowing of an object? > … > S: Yes. It accompanies the body consciousness which experiences ‘warmth’ > and is a pleasant (bodily) feeling. But this is so very brief and usually > followed by many mind door processes where cittas accompanied by pleasant > (mental) feeling experience that same object and concepts about it. [Of > course, both the mental and bodily feelings here are namas]. > ….. > >That is, a pleasant > >feeling > >is not something known, but something that knows, albeit in a particular > >way? > …. > S:Yes, in the body-sense door process, pleasant feeling experiences the > rupas along with the cittas it accompanies.. > …. > > We don't ever ask what someone's feeling is doing. We certainly > >never > >ask what someone's pleasant feeling is experiencing!! We may ask > >someone, > >however, how they feel - that is, whether they are experiencing > >pleasantness, > >unpleasantness, or neutrality. > …. > S: Usually we ask how *someone* is, how *they* feel etc. We don’t need to > change our language, but it helps a lot to understand the cittas, > cetasikas and rupas and to see that there’s nothing else at all. One world > for a moment and then gone. Someone may be sick, but at a moment of > understanding or metta or bodily pleasant feeling, there’s no sickness at > all. > …. > > It seems to me, and to most people, I believe, that to feel is > >simply > >the ability to experience feeling, where feeling is a mind-door object, > >much > >as to taste is simply the ability to experience flavor, a tongue-door > >object. > >So, what I am saying is that feelings are usually seen as certain kinds > >of > >experienced objects rather than as certain modes of experiencing. > …. > S: So when we talk about feeling as a mind-door object, usually it’s > merely a concept – not any reality. This is why we have to clearly > differentiate namas from rupas from concepts, I believe. > ….. > >But > >Abhidhamma > >apparently sees feelings as modes of knowing. So, when I say "Oh, what a > > > >pleasant taste" upon eating ice cream, while it seems to me that the > >taste has the > >property of being pleasant or that upon eating the ice cream, > >pleasantness > >becomes an object of experience, Abhidhamma says instead that the > >ice-cream taste > >is experienced merely cognitively by the function of vi~n~nana and is > >simultaneously known by the emotive function of pleasant taste. Is that > >correct? > …. > S: Yes. I think that when you read the suttas again, you’ll begin to see > there isn’t any distinction between what they say and the Abhidhamma says. > For example, SN 36, Vedana Samyutta, 22(2) the Theme of the Hundred and > Eight, explains different classifications of feelings. To take just a > couple here: > > “And what, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of feelings? Bodily and mental….â€? > > “And what, bhikkhus, are the five kinds of feelings? The pleasure faculty, > the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity > faculty….â€? > > “And what , bhikkhus, are the six kinds of feelings? Feeling born of > eye-contact……mind-contact…..â€? > ***** > Please let me know if anything isn't clear here. I appreciate your > following of the Cetasikas thread and your comments on other threads. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Hope you're feeling better and the check-up goes wel /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38694 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Hello Naresh, On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:51:36 -0800 (PST), naresh gurwani wrote: > I am new to DSG group , i was trying to understand the > dhamma through reading articles onnet [...] > It will be helpful if somebody can guide me > > Awaiting your reply > Naresh One advice, be careful on what you read that is labeled as "Buddhism", there is a lot of "New Age" stuff out there that some people call it "Buddhism". It is better to find out who is who and then read what they write or about them. Ah!, and let's not forget that reading is NOT the most important thing, it is PRACTICING, so instead of reading for 1 hr. a day, read 30 mins. and meditate 30 mins. Ok? ;-) At the beginning I did much, much, much more reading than meditation, now I try to balance it.....well, technically speaking I am still "at the beginning", but you get the idea. And remember you need: morality, concentration and wisdom, sitting on the cushion for 4 hours then go and live without any morality or any mindfulness on what you do, think and speak will not do it. For lay people, I see the cushion as a "training lab or gym" where I develop some "muscle" or "skill" then I use it in my everyday life, but at the same time I am (or try to be) mindfull all-day long fine-tuning how I am doing or gathering information that will be used "back in the lab" to further develop the skill. Taking the 5 precepts help you be mindful. I have found the following websites extremely helpful: http://buddhanet.net http://accesstoinsight.org I would suggest start with: http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/guide.htm Read all the links at: 1. Basic Buddhism Guide http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/schools.htm http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/schools1.htm http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/nshellct.htm http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/whatbelieve.pdf http://accesstoinsight.org/begin.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm That's approximately the path I followed (I read many more, plus some printed books too) Your local library/monastery might have some books, some of the ones I have read and recommend: Living Dharma http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570621381/103-6382999-0663831?v=glance The Art of Happiness http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573221112/qid=1100796123/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6382999-0663831 How to Practice : The Way to a Meaningful Life http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743427084/qid=1100796123/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/103-6382999-0663831 Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0861711769/qid%3D1100796232/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-6382999-0663831 I hope that helps, -- Hugo 38695 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relaxation and insight (Bhante V) Dhamma Greetings Naresh, I have done this in earlier post to some degree, but if you want to see these instructions please go to our website at www.dhammasukha.org Then click on the Barebones of either Mindfulness of Breathing or Loving-kindness And you can download them. Also I have written a book called "The Anapanasati Sutta - A practical guide to mindfulness of breathing and tranquil wisdom meditation" which is available from this website. And you can download it as well. This book that I have written has been printed for free distribution and has over 100,000 copies world wide distribution. Maha-Metta Always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38696 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard To me there is only one door, that is anatta. As I said earlier, in the ancient time even before Buddha arise, there is already knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they are visible. They are not pivotal to enlightment, they assist but not pivotal. Only through Anatta then can one be enlighted (there is the difference between Buddhist and non-Buddhist). Similarly in the sutta, it is usually starts with anicca, then goes to dukkha but eventually it is about Anatta. Just like when Buddha talk about the six senses, six contact, feelings etc, will eventually talk about Anatta. Ken O 38697 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Howard One can see the impermanence of a citta if and only if the panna is developed to that level. It can be seen in one reality as each citta rise and falls. My present panna only allowed me to notice anicca through a sucession of paramatha realities but this is the first step though :) Ken O 38698 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah So are you saying there is conceptual right view or are you saying that conceptual right view is the same as mundane right view. I told Dan D, there is no conceptual right view, there is only mundane right view and supramundane right view. Buddha never coined conceptual right view neither does the Abhidhamma text I have read. Reading, listening and studying about dhamma is not conceptual right view, it is mundane right view. Ken O 38699 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:52am Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Dear Larry, I think dukkha may well be the object of vipassana nana when dukkha means one of tilakkhana. But I still think that panatta is not dukkha. Because it does not exist ultimately. When we dissect everything out, there is no pannatta at all. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > When the Buddha said all sankhata dhammas are dukkha he was speaking > in general, conventional terms. In the precise, ultimate sense dukkha > means object of dosa. I can tell from here, half way around the > world, you are dissatisfied with this concept. Concepts are dukkha. > > Larry > > ps: "Conditioned" is not a good translation of sankhata. A closer > sense would be "made". As we will see when we get to sankhara > cetasikas in Visuddhimagga the meaning of this "made" is "put > together". "Sankhata" does not mean dependently arisen or conditioned > (paccaya). This compoundedness is an appearance only (nimitta) and is > the basis of all error. It is wrongly interpreted as "one" > or "wholeness". Sankhara cetasikas "form" all dhammas including > concept, but not nibbana, into apparent compounds. The nexus of this > phenomenon is the prefix "sam" meaning "with". "With" is the heart of > the matter. There is no real "with". > > I can tell by the expression on your face this concept also is > dukkha. L. 38700 From: Hugo Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi, By replying a post in a different thread I was reminded of the Satipathanna Sutta: Which says (three different translators): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010b.html This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the four foundations of mindfulness. What are the four? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010a.html "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? And in your book you say: > The Pali Canon makes it quite clear that Dependent Origination > is not merely one strand or thread (sutta) of teaching among many others. > It is the very essence of the Teachings (Dhamma) and is the "only way" to > gain the deep insights (vipassana) necessary to attain liberation from > all suffering. Currently the Pali word "vipassana" is translated as being > "insight or clear understanding into the true nature of all things that > arise and pass away". This definition is very good especially when one > understands "how" dependent origination is a process to be closely looked > at and comprehended. This is the "only way" to gain the insight > (vipassana) necessary to observe exactly "how" this process is the way to > recognize and actually penetrate the true nature of all existence. How do you reconcile both positions? I am really interested, I am not trying to set up an intellectual trap or anything. The main motivation that prompted me to ask you this is that whenever I hear or read "The Only" anything, my red flag goes up, and most (if not all) of the times I have found that it is really not "the only", but one of "the many" (maybe the most popular, the easiest, the better, but not "the only"). BTW, I have obtained several "benefits" by being mindful of the arising of craving, so in that respect I agree with you that craving is one key link (another one is clinging) that helps prevent dukkha from arising if broken. Therefore I am not questioning the importance of D.O. at all, as I have experienced it myself (mmm..well everybody experiences it, I mean I have been mindful of it.....mmmmm..it is really difficult to try to explain these kind of experiences with words, but I think you understand what I mean). Yours Truly, -- Hugo 38701 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Dear Nina, It is in abhidhammatthasangaha by venerable Anuruddha. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you very much. Where can I find 'sacca- > > vimutti dhamma'? > I still incline to see even lokuttara cittas as impermanent, dukkha and > anatta. The Sutta (Kindred s. IV) says: what is impermanent is dukkha. > Nina. > op 22-11-2004 12:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > magga cittas, phala cittas do arise, do fall away and > > impermanent. But as you said they are not the object of clinging. > > They are not taken into account as dukkha. This is told in 'sacca- > > vimutti dhamma'. 38702 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 131 ) Dear Nina, Thanks for your kindness for references. I will read them. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 22-11-2004 18:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > My view is that all 28 cittas can be accompanied by karuna or mudita > > cetasika. Upekkha is just a vedana and it is nothing to do with > > karuna and mudita. > N: Yes. We think of the conventional term sympathetic joy, but it is not > pleasant feeling. I agree with you. > Ht: There is confusion in this area. Upekkha needs to be studied in > > detail. Otherwise there arise a lot of confusion. Even some experts > > confuse in this area regarding upekkha. This is because they do not > > penetrate cetasikas and their functions very well. > N: See Visuddhimagga, IV, about ten kinds of upekkha. It can also stand for > viriya or pañña. Different aspects. > See also Atthasalini, Book I, part IV, Ch III, 172. > Nina. 38703 From: Suravira Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: Cetasikas study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana Dear Sarah, Howard, et al, [Howard wrote] > This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, and of > unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three modes of mental > processing of experiences, is interesting. [Suravira] Is not vedana a singular function; not a suite of three distinct functions? I understand vedana to be a cetasika that supports the citta that has arisen in th present moment. Perhaps it can be stated that vedana accords with the object of experience and by so doing conveys an aspect of its (the object of experience) nature as being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Just as the air merely reflects the color of the light being transmitted through it, vedana simply reflects an aspect of nature of the object of experience. Changing the object of experience likely does not change vedana's mode of processing. [Howard wrote] > (Are there no other > conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that there must be > multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) [Suravira] Yes, most definitely - innumerable causes and conditions that are beginningless. > I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. [Suravira] Be well! With metta, Suravira 38704 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:05:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > To me there is only one door, that is anatta. As I said earlier, in > the ancient time even before Buddha arise, there is already knowledge > of anicca and dukkha as they are visible. They are not pivotal to > enlightment, they assist but not pivotal. Only through Anatta then > can one be enlighted (there is the difference between Buddhist and > non-Buddhist). Similarly in the sutta, it is usually starts with > anicca, then goes to dukkha but eventually it is about Anatta. Just > like when Buddha talk about the six senses, six contact, feelings > etc, will eventually talk about Anatta. > > Ken O > ======================== You haven't responded here to what I wrote about signless liberation etc, but that's okay. You have a right to your personal opinion. I don't know, in fact, whether these three doors of liberation are to be unequivocally found in the suttas, though I would expect so, as Mahayana accepts these just as does Theravada. There *is* the following reference to signless release (where 'sign' is understood to mean sign of permanence) the Mahavedalla Sutta (MN 43): ------------------------------------------ The release of mind in signlessness is based on two factors. Not attending to any signs and attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two factors the release of mind in signlessness is attained. On account of what is the duration of the release of mind in signlessness? The duration of the release of mind in signlessness is based on three factors. Not attending to any signs, attending to the no-sign element, and making a determination earlier. Friend, based on these three is the duration of the release of mind in the no-sign element.. Friend, how is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element? Based on two factors is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element: Attending to all signs and not attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two is the rising from the attainment, release of mind in the no-sign element. ________________________ Certainly the three doors of liberation are mentioned in Abhidhamma commentaries. For example, please see the following from the website http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vimokkha.htm ------------------------------------------ vimokkha 'liberation' (deliverance). I. the 3; II. the 8.I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta-v.), 2. the desireless liberation (apanihita-v.), 3. the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññatá-v. ). They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' (vimokkha-mukha; Vis.M. XXI, 66ff), as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathá. 1. "Whosoever being filled with determination (adhimokkha, q.v.), considers all formations as impermanent (anicca), such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all formations as painful (dukkha), such a one attains the desireless liberation. 3. Whosoever being filled with wisdom, considers all formations as without a self (anattá), such a one attains the emptiness liberation" (Vis.M. XXI, 70 = Pts.M. II, p. 58).(1) and (2) are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the name of deliverances of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.). - (2) and (3) appear in Dhs. (344ff, 353ff) in the section on supermundane consciousness (see Atthasálini Tr., p. 299ff). ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38705 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana Hi, suravira (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/23/04 12:14:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, suravira@d... writes: > > Dear Sarah, Howard, et al, > > [Howard wrote] > > This perspective of pleasant feeling, of neutral feeling, > and of > >unpleasant feeling as three mental functions/operations, three > modes of mental > >processing of experiences, is interesting. > > [Suravira] Is not vedana a singular function; not a suite of three > distinct functions? I understand vedana to be a cetasika that > supports the citta that has arisen in th present moment. Perhaps it > can be stated that vedana accords with the object of experience and > by so doing conveys an aspect of its (the object of experience) > nature as being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Just as the air > merely reflects the color of the light being transmitted through it, > vedana simply reflects an aspect of nature of the object of > experience. Changing the object of experience likely does not change > vedana's mode of processing. --------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps. However, while I think that any specific occurrence of feeling is a cetasika and is an instance of either pleasant feeling, neutral feeling, or unpleasant feeling, vedana in general is a khandha - an aggregate. Just as there is not but one rupa or even one type of rupa, there is not just one vedana nor just one type of vedana. ---------------------------------------- > > [Howard wrote] > >(Are there no other > >conditions for the arising of it? It is my understanding that > there must be > >multiple conditions for the arising of any phenomenon.) > > [Suravira] Yes, most definitely - innumerable causes and conditions > that are beginningless. > > >I thank you for your kind wishes. I *am* feeling better. > [Suravira] Be well! > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) ---------------------------------------- > > With metta, > Suravira > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran Hi Andrew, I hope Ken H prepares a solid paper. Nina. op 23-11-2004 08:30 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Pity your work commitments (real and imagined) mean you can't make > it! (-: Even Rusty is coming this time! > > Take care > Andrew 38707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hello Phil, op 23-11-2004 12:41 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: >> i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling >> experience an object? > > I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right > answer. N: No. Lobha-muulacitta with pleasant feeling can arise also in the sense-doors, even when citta does not know much about the object. It is by accumulations, anatta. Thus, six doors. Ph: ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have >> something in common. What is the characteristic they have >> in common? > > They are nama? They are not rupa? :N: they experience the flavour of the object. (snipped) >> PH: iv Can everybody know the reality of pleasant feeling or of >> unpleasant feeling? > > Yes. I would guess that feeling is the cetasika that everyone *can* know, > not that everyone *does* know. N: They know about them, but for most people they are still my feeling, not just a reality, an impersonal element. (snipped) > >> viii When an unpleasant tangible object impinges on the >> body-sense, can kusala cittas accompanied by somanassa >> arise which cognize that unpleasant object? > > Interesting question! I would say no, for worldlings. How could > the arising of unpleasant mental feeling in response to unpleasant > tangible object be circumvented if one is not enlightened? > There can be a much quicker return to kusala cittas that consider > the impermanence of the vipaka, but right away? N: There can be awareness of the hardness or heat, but it may not be with somanassa. >Nina. 38708 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 115 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 115 and Tiika Vis. Ch. XIV, 115. 115. (c) With the life-continuum continuity occurring thus, when living beings' faculties have become capable of apprehending an object, Tiika: faculties, namely the faculties of the eye, etc. As to the words, capable of apprehending an object, the Tiika explains that the faculties of living beings only gradually ripen. N: In the case of human birth kamma produces at the first moment of life three decads (groups of ten ruupas): the decad of bodysense, sex and heartbase. There are not yet eyesense, earsense, smellingsense and tasting sense. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 249) that later on the eyedecad appears, one week after that the eardecad, one week after that the nosedecad, and one week after that the tongue decad. Vis. text: then, when a visible datum has come into the eye's focus, there is impinging upon the eye-sensitivity due to the visible datum. Thereupon, owing to the impact's influence, there comes to be a disturbance in [the continuity of] the life-continuum. N: The Tiika states: Because of the force of the impact (gha..t.tanaabalena), the bhavanga-citta is disturbed. The Tiika mentions that there is a different condition (for citta), that is, the pleasant or unpleasant object that impinges on the eyesense. As to disturbance of the bhavanga-citta, the words of the Tiika are contained in the footnote 46: ----------------------------- "A disturbance in the life-continuum" is a wavering of the life-continuum consciousness; the meaning is that there is the arrival at a state that is a reason for dissimilarity in its occurrence twice in that way. N: An object, different from the object experienced by the bhavanga-citta impinges on the relevant doorway. The first bhavanga-citta that is disturbed is the vibrating bhavanga-citta, bhavanga calana, and this is succeeded by the arrest bhavanga-citta, upaccheda bhavanga, the last bhavanga-citta arising before the first citta of a process experiencing the object that has impinged. Text Tiika: For it is called disturbance (calana) because it is like a disturbance (movement) since there seems to be a cause for an occasion (avatthaa) in the mind's continuity different from the previous occasion. Granted, firstly, that there is impact on the sensitivity owing to confrontation with an object, since the necessity for that is established by the existence of the objective field and the possessor of the objective field, N: The word possessor is used in figurative sense. It is not a person. The Pali uses the i-suffix, indicating a possessive noun (visayii, having an object). The object impinges on the sense organ so that there are conditions for citta to experience it. Text Tiika: but how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the life-continuum that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves' (Pm. 478). Text Vis: : Then, when the life-continuum has ceased, the functional mind-element (70) arises making that same visible datum its object, as it were cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. So too in the case of the eardoor and so on. N: The adverting-consciousness adverts to the new object that has impinged on one of the sense-doors. This is a kiriyacitta (inoperative citta, neither cause nor result), and it is called mano-dhaatu, mind-element. The Tiika explains that the visible object which has come into focus has become the condition for the disturbance of the bhavangacitta. It seems that we can see and hear at the same time, but in reality these cittas arise in different processes of cittas. All the time there is disturbance of the stream of bhavanga-cittas and a new object comes into focus. Seeing or hearing do not arise immediately, but first the adverting-consciousness arises which adverts to the object. Visible object or sound could not appear if the stream of bhavanga-cittas were not interrupted. When there is bhavangacitta, nothing appears, and then there are conditions for visible object to appear, but it falls away immediately and there is nothing left. The stream of bhavangacittas is resumed and then interrupted again when a new object appears. It all happens so rapidly, we do not notice that there are countless cittas arising and falling away. We do not notice the diversity of objects that appear and then fall away immediately. ******* Nina. 38709 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Path and Fruit. to Bhante. Venerable Bhante, op 21-11-2004 23:29 schreef Bhante Vimalaramsi op bhantevimalaramsi@j...: > Then How can you explain the sutta below. This is taken from a book that > I am currently writing. It does have some explanation in it, that may > help. Please forgive the length of this. But it does make what you are > saying about Phala questionable. N: Thank you for the sutta. I read it and also part of the Co I have in Thai, but I did not have time to study this enough. I do not find here info about magga-citta and phalacitta as having an interval between them. I know that in the suttas it is said four pairs of men. In the Abhidhamma: four pairs of cittas: for each stage there is lokuttara kusala citta and lokuttara vipakacitta. The Buddha had the highest degree of Discrimination of language (nirutti patisambhida). Depending on the audience he explained realities by way of conventional terms, by way of similes or by way of ultimate realities. > ***** I could add something to your comment to the Sutta at the end (I have to snip, otherwise it is too long) > ***** Sutta: He might pursue the sight of unsuitable forms with the > eye, he might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear, he might pursue > unsuitable odors with the nose, he might pursue unsuitable flavors with > the tongue, he might pursue unsuitable tangibles with the body, or he > might pursue unsuitable mind-objects with the mind. > ***** > What does it mean that the meditator might pursue these things? It means > that, at that time, this bhikkhu (meditator) does not see the process of > dependent origination at all, thus he/she gets caught by craving - the "I > like it, I don’t like it, mind" (which can always be seen as a tightness > or tension somewhere in the body especially in the head/mind) and then > begins to think about the story of why he/she likes or doesn’t like it. N: I have some thoughts on D.O. I agree that this is most important, it is about the cause of being in the cycle and the way to be released form it. I see a close connection between D.O., the four N.T. and the three characteristics. I understand that you cannot get a copy of the Visuddhimagga in the forest. But the Vis. clearly explains about all these aspects as being connected. The Vis. describes all the stages of insight, and at the second stage of beginning or tender insight one begins to see the conditionality of dhammas, and at the fourth stage (the first principal insight) one realizes impermanence and begins to see the D.O. There are many degrees of understanding D.O. and the four N.T. Vis. XX, 97: This is not intellectual understanding, it is insight and insight is not thinking. If people do not remember this they may read all these passages with wrong understanding. Vis. XX, 100: We see that the three characteristics are closely connected with D.O. Also in the suttas we see that arising and falling away is seen according to instant and according to D.O. For example the passages about Assaji and Sariputta: all that has arisen because of a cause has to cease. The three characteristics are always characteristics of realities, they cannot be isolated. Someone may realize the impermanence of seeing for example. As to the Way out of samsara, I see it this way: it has to begin with clear understanding of the realities of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. the Buddha explained in the suttas time and again. He sees visible object with the eye... There is wise attention or unwise attention. They have to be understood one at a time, no matter in the forest or in a busy street. If not, we see only a whole of different dhammas, a mass, a group, or postures, or the continuity of cittas which succeed one another. It seems that citta lasts. This prevents us from seeing rise and fall of each dhamma separately. We cling to my sitting posture, but in fact this consists of different rupas, appearing one at a time. We cling to my breath, but in fact this consists of different rupas. I think that if we wish to induce calm first, it will prevent us from seeing anatta. Dosa has appeared already because of its own conditions, why not know it as a reality instead of trying to induce calm. Calm with kusala citta is wholesome calm, but there is a danger that people are confused and take clinging for what they believe to be kusala calm. Clinging may be very, very subtle. It makes sense to me to begin at the beginning: discerning the difference between nama and rupa. Nama and rupa are common realities of daily life and they appear now. Bhante: When in fact, this bhikkhu (meditator) has not > expelled craving but is indulging in it. His/Her mindfulness is not sharp > and he/she does not clearly see what his/her mind is doing at that time. > This can even happen to an arahat who has experienced the path but has > not experienced the fruition of arahatship. For one who has experienced > the path only there is still an opportunity for ignorance and craving to > arise. N: The arahat eradicates all akusala by the magga-citta. See above. I have just one more point: > *Nina: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of > jhana: jhana that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three > characteristics. > > Bhante: This is a relatively new concept in vipassana circles. Where > does it describe it in the suttas? > > ********* > Bhante: > I said relatively new because it didn't really come into being until > Venerable Dhammapala in the 2nd century A.D. came up with it. If you > would look at his writtings you will see this. N: It is in Commentaries edited by Buddhaghosa. Edited, because he used ancient commentaries and these were rehearsed at the councils. Buddhaghosa did not write new things or added things. Robert K. explained this on Triple Gem too. He also wrote a series on D.O. you may have seen. I have read about the two kinds of jhana in the Co to the Digha Nikaya. It is also in other co. With respect, Nina. 38710 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Naresh, I answer your letter on dsg, because others are interested in our exchange as well, if you don't mind. op 23-11-2004 03:38 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y... > As iam still to find > which is the right path for me which iam still not > getting.... Iam still living in past & worried > about my future. > So i need a technique where in i can apply for gaining > more Concetration & dedication. I was reading your > article in chapter 21st about samatha in which you have > described about 5 hindrances .... i have to overcome > all this hindrances to gain a satisfied life and carry > forward dhamma more correctly & with right vision. Nina: This is for all of us, they are all the defilements arising in the life of an ordinary human being. Naresh; Vippasana is a deep study but i think i need to study > more about samatha and meditation procedure to focus to > go ahead. Nina: It is difficult for me what to answer. Samatha and vipassana are both difficult. To begin with we have to understand in all sincerity our different moments of consciousness, citta. We may easily delude ourselves with different techniques, believing that these make us quickly a better person. Instead of true calm, temporary freedom from unwholesomeness, there may be clinging to a pleasant sensation we want to have for ourselves. There are yoga techniques such as relaxation by breathing and these help for our wellbeing. But this is not the aim of the Buddha's teachings which have detachment as the aim. The Buddha taught about moral health, kusala, and immorality, akusala. Each kind of kusala helps us to become detached from selfishness. Generosity or giving: you do not think of yourself but of other's wellbeing. Sila: you abstain from harming others, you think of their wellbeing. Metta or kindness: the Buddha taught us not to mistake selfish affection for pure unselfish kindness. You forget about yourself and only think of the other person. Samatha: the aim is detachment from all the pleasant objects in life, pleasant sights, sounds, etc. By samatha one can temporarily suppress defilements. But we have to know ourselves very well and many conditions have to be fulfilled. to we really want to retire from worldly life? Vipassana: this is specifically the Buddha's teaching nobody else can teach. It is the development of direct understanding of seeing, hearing, defilements, wholesomeness, of all that arises in our daily life. Detachment is the goal, detachment from the wrong view of self and from all defilements. It can be developed in daily life and no special techniques are required. You learn the truth about your life, about yourself, about your defilements and the cause of them. But don't expect a quick transformation of character by it! For the development of vipassana we have to study what the objects of awareness and understanding are, what awareness is, and this can be done by discussions and reading the suttas. It cannot be explained in just one Email. Best wishes, Nina. 38711 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Howard, All Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." Since delusion generates cravings which lead to Dukkha, wouldn't it be correct to say that concepts are a large part of the delusional process that generates Dukkha? The concepts of 'permanence' and 'self' reinforce the perception (or view) of the same. 'Permanence' and 'self' do not exist even conventionally, but the view and concept of them is the very thing that generates Dukkha (as they initiate craving.) Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and cease' to a delusional view that generates Dukkhu. My conclusion is: -- Concept is Dukkha in the sense that it is involved in "structuring" Dukkha. TG 38712 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] vimokkha 'liberation' (deliverance). I. the 3; II. the 8.I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta-v.), 2. the desireless liberation (apanihita-v.), 3. the emptiness (or void) liberation (suññatá-v. ). They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' (vimokkha-mukha; Vis.M. XXI, 66ff), as they are three different approaches to the paths of holiness. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathá. 1. "Whosoever being filled with determination (adhimokkha, q.v.), considers all formations as impermanent (anicca), such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all formations as > painful (dukkha), such a one attains the desireless liberation. > 3. Whosoever being filled with wisdom, considers all formations as without a > self (anattá), such a one attains the emptiness liberation" (Vis.M. XXI, 70 = > Pts.M. II, p. 58).(1) and (2) are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the > name of deliverances of mind (ceto-vimutti, q.v.). - (2) and (3) appear in > Dhs. (344ff, 353ff) in the section on supermundane consciousness (see Atthasálini > Tr., p. 299ff). > ============================ > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? With respect, Htoo Naing 38713 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:50pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After discussion on which cetasika can arise with which cittas which is called sampayoga, now we will look into Dhamma with more sensible approach. This approach is called sangaha. Sanhaga means 'association' 'combination'. Citta always arises with a group of cetasikas. Citta is the leader. Citta is the king of all mental faculties. Every citta has to arise with at least 7 cetasikas. There are a maximum of 38 cetasikas that can arise together at a moment. It is much more understandable if we see each citta in turn. There are 89 cittas or 121 cittas. We will see them each in turn. Each citta has its associated cetasikas. The combination of citta with co- arising cetasikas is called nama dhamma. The whole mass of that nama dhamma have to depend on a rupa. At this stage, rupa will be left out and rupa will be discussed later on. We have discussed on each citta, each cetasika, and each rupa, and nibbana and pannatta. Such study is like seeing under microscope. Each is dhamma and each has been very clearly explained. Dhamma are 1. 1 citta 2. 52 cetasikas 3. 18 nipphanna rupas 4. 1 nibbana --------------- 72 dhammas These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and they can be seen under the microscope of panna. ''Dvaasattati vidhaa vuttaa, vatthudhammaa salakkhanaa. Tesa.m daani yathaa yoga.m, pavakkhaami samuccaya.m.'' Salakkhana means 'with characteristics marks' Only these 72 dhammas have objective marks and they are called salakkhana dhamma. We have seen all these under microscope. Now each particle will be put into much more visible units. Citta is pure. Citta is brilliant. Citta is luminous. Citta is to know object or arammana. But when citta is accompanied by many different cetasikas, then citta have many different names. Actually there is only 1 citta in terms of its characteristic. Now different combination of cetasikas with citta will be discussed. This is like molecular level. 72 dhammas are like atomic level. When citta and cetasikas combination that is nama dhamma is considered together with rupa, it will be like a compound in chemistry like H2O. Temporal combination of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma in many moments will be like complex in chemistry like simple protein. When these nama dhamma and rupa dhamma are constructed they will be like a complex special protein like chlorophil of leaves of plants or like haemoglobin of human red blood cells. These quarternary proteins are illusion. They are illusion of atoms of different combination. We have seen dhamma at atomic level. All 72 salakkhana dhammas have thoroughly been explained in the previous posts. In the coming post, we will be discussing at molecular level that is study of citta with different combination of cetasikas, which finally gives each citta their names. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38714 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:59pm Subject: The Yahoo Group DSG's description Dear all Dhamma Friends, If you thoroughly read the group's description, you will see what the group DSG is for. Please see the description. ''A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition. The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment. The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket. '' 1. All 3 baskets of the Tipitaka ( Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma ) 2. Original record of the Buddha's words in the Theravada tradition. This original record is record in Pali. 3. Further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of Theravada tradition. 4. Matters of both theory and practice. 5. Aiming developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38715 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:13pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 134 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Before we start the molecular level discussion on Dhamma, I would like to add something more on cetasikas. Issa, macchariya, kukkucca never arise together and they arise singly and they do not even arise in pair. This means when issa arises other 2 cannot arise, when macchariya arises, issa and kukkucca cannot arise, and when kukkucca arises issa and macchariya cannot arise. Likewise, 3 virati cetasikas do the same with the exception of magga cittas and phala cittas. When kaya-ducarita virati arises, vaci- ducarita virati and du-jiva virati cannot arise and when other one arises other 2 cetasikas cannot arise. Karuna and mudita do not arise together. These 8 cetasikas do not always arise in cittas that they can arise with. Moreover, mana does not always arise in lobha mula cittas and it arises occasionally. By the same token, thina and middha do not always arise. But when they arise they always arise in pair. Altogether these 11 cetasikas ( issa, macchariya, kukkucca, kaya- ducarita virati, vaci-ducarita virati, dujiva virati, karuna, muduta, mana, thina, and middha ) are called aniyata yogii cetasikas. They do not always arise in the cittas that they can arise together. But they arise occasionally. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38716 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, My Upajaya (spiritual guide and spiritual father) Sayadaw U Silananda, who by the way is very famous in Burma for his knowledge, wisdom and accuracy in translating texts. Says in his book "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" on page 18 of the introduction: " 'This is the only way': To understand the explanation you should know the Pali words for the 'Only way'. It is in Pali 'ekayana'. Eka means one and ayana means way, so ekayana means 'one way'. The word ekayana is explained in five ways. The first explanation is that it is the "single way" that does not branch off. There are no branches in this way, so that you can follow this way with assurance from beginning to deliverance. The second explanation is that this way has to be trodden "alone. In practicing meditation, you are making this journey alone, without companions. You may be in a group, you may be in a retreat, but actually you are going your own way. You are alone. Nobody is with you. Nobody can give his or her concentration or wisdom to you and you can not give your concentration and wisdom to anyone else. So, although you may be in a group, you are really practicing alone. Therefore, this is the 'only way', the 'way to be trodden alone'. The third explanation, is that it is the 'way of the One'. The 'way of the One' means the 'way of the Excellent One', the way discovered by the Buddha. The fourth explanation is that it is the 'only way' because it is the way that leads only to one destination,' i.e. to nibbana. So, when you go along this way, you will surely reach the destination. Nibbana will be the only destination you reach, when you go along this way. The fifth explanation is that this is the 'Only way to reach nibbana.'. There is no other way. The satipatthana or mindfulness way is the only way to nibbana, the end of suffering, the destruction of mental defilements. This may help you a little and also in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta section 19 and 20 of the Digha Nikaya there is a short but detailed accounting of Dependent origination. If you don't have a copy of the Digha Nikaya translated by Maurice Walsh let me know and I will write it out for you. I much prefer this translation to the access to insight translation because the access to insight has the tendency to change some words that will change the true meaning of what is said. Seeing Dependent Origination includes the Four Noble Truths and the Four Foundations of mindfulness as well as the 37 requisites of enlightenment. All of these things are seen and understood when practicing in the way I have described to you. I sincerely hope that this has been helpful. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38717 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/23/04 2:22:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, All > > Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is > "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is > > ever other than that." > > Since delusion generates cravings which lead to Dukkha, wouldn't it be > correct to say that concepts are a large part of the delusional process that > > generates Dukkha? > > The concepts of 'permanence' and 'self' reinforce the perception (or view) > of > the same. 'Permanence' and 'self' do not exist even conventionally, but the > > view and concept of them is the very thing that generates Dukkha (as they > initiate craving.) > > Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all > (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and > cease' to a > delusional view that generates Dukkhu. > > My conclusion is: -- Concept is Dukkha in the sense that it is involved in > "structuring" Dukkha. > > TG > =========================== Concepts in the sense of thoughts may or may not be delusive, but they *are* always, at best, indirect modes of knowing. However concepts in the sense of *objects* of thoughts are *always* delusive, for a "hardness" that is thought of is not an actual hardness that is felt. Thoughts that are misunderstood in this latter sense and thoughts that presuppose the existence of what does not exist are delusive. Now, in terms of concepts as actually nonexistent objects of thought, where you write "Therefore, it seems that -- something that doesn't exist at all (permanence/self), by way of concept, leads 'actual events that do arise and cease' to a delusional view that generates Dukkhu," I don't see the concepts, i.e., nonexistent objects, as generating dukkha. They don't exist, so there is no *they* to do *anything*! But the belief in them and the sense of them, and the actions based on that sense and that belief do generate dukkha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38718 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/23/04 3:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ==================== Yes, I've seen that. I don't understand the 1st three. Why, BTW, do you ask? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38719 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Yahoo Group DSG's description Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 11/23/04 4:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear all Dhamma Friends, > > If you thoroughly read the group's description, you will see what the > group DSG is for. Please see the description. > =================== I wonder why you raise this matter. Were some folks questioning this? Or did some want to censor aspects of it? It does seem that the list members as a whole do exercise all aspects of the description, and very little that falls outside it. It is legitimate, within the guidelines, I believe, to express questioning or doubts with regard to Abhidhamma or the commentaries or certain suttas, is it not? For example, in the past I've seen the Anupada Sutta's authoritativeness questioned. Even though it is one of my favorite suttas, I see nothing wrong with questioning its status. It is truth that we are after, not a set of beliefs. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38720 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Ken O: "Concepts are not dukkha because concepts dont experience anicca." Hi Ken, This concept is unsatisfactory, dukkha. Larry 38721 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Howard: "If, by concept, we mean..." Hi Howard, Can we agree that in abhidhamma "concept" means name, meaning, or imagination as outlined in CMA? Larry 38722 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo, I agree. Whatever I think is just a thought. Nothing to hold on to. Larry ------------------------ H: "Dear Larry, I think dukkha may well be the object of vipassana nana when dukkha means one of tilakkhana. But I still think that panatta is not dukkha. Because it does not exist ultimately. When we dissect everything out, there is no pannatta at all. With respect, Htoo Naing" 38723 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:41pm Subject: Reminder and request Dear All While we appreciate efforts by members to assist with the smooth running of the list, please leave it to the moderators to monitor compliance with the guidelines and home-page description. We can assure you we keep a close eye on things and are active behind the scenes in this regard. We also ask that problems on other lists not be raised on DSG. Thanks for your cooperation. Comments off-list only. Jon and Sarah 38724 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry You are basing on our level of understanding. Do not confuse our understanding and what is said in the texts. By asserting our own experience just because we think this should be correct, may not be true as shown in the text. We all like our believe to be true, but it is better to see the texts for explanation and not insisting just because we experience this way, it must be the correct way. Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. It is difficult to see the fine line what is paccaya and what is dukkha due to our limited panna Ken O 38725 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/23/04 8:36:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "If, by concept, we mean..." > > Hi Howard, > > Can we agree that in abhidhamma "concept" means name, meaning, or > imagination as outlined in CMA? -------------------------------------- Howard: The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and how they are related. -------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38726 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Ken O: "Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. " Hi Ken, Is rupa dukkha? Larry 38727 From: Andrew Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, > I hope Ken H prepares a solid paper. > Nina. Dear Nina What an excellent suggestion. I will be sure to bring it to Ken H's attention. He has gone to the city to visit his ill father for a few days. Alas, I fear Ken H will arrive at Cooran with his usual page of notes written in very faint pencil. (-: But the quality of his questions is always very high and that's the important part! We are also looking forward to Christine telling us more of your discussions in India. Best wishes to you and Lodewijk Andrew 38728 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Howard: "The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and how they are related." Hi Howard, Are you saying the concept of concept is unsatisfactory? Why does there have to be only one kind of concept? "Howard", "army", "mental image", what's unclear about that? It's just a convention; something we agree on. Larry 38729 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/23/2004 2:25:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I don't see the concepts, i.e., nonexistent objects, as generating dukkha. They don't exist, so there is no *they* to do *anything*! But the belief in them and the sense of them, and the actions based on that sense and that belief do generate dukkha. With metta, Howard Hi Howard Here's a quote that may be pertinent to the above... “When it is said, ‘The way leading to the origination of identity [self-view or “object-entity viewâ€?],’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.â€? … “When it is said, ‘The way leading to the cessation of identity,’ the meaning is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 884) I am not willing to state that a concept isn't real: only that it does not truely represent reality. A concept of a dragon flying around the moon is only that; i.e., a concept of a dragon flying around the moon. Its not supposed to be a real dragon flying around the moon. (Or arisen elements moving in relation to a firm shpere...if we want to get more technical.) Concepts are a mental object supported by a mental base and conjoined with consciousness. Except for an Arahat, I believe concepts always contain some measure of self-view and therefore are delusion to some degree. Therefore, except for an Arahat, I would have to consider them associated with Dukkha and pretty deeply associatedI think. TG 38730 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Howard, All > > Question... Isn't a concept always a delusion? Even a correct concept is > "off the mark." The Buddha said..."In whatever way we conceive, the fact is > ever other than that." Friend TG, Could you please provide the sutta reference where the Buddha said, "In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." I wonder because the use of the word `we' would include the Buddha, and that would mean he said he suffered from delusion. I have some doubts about this. Metta, James 38731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:three characteristics Hi Howard, op 23-11-2004 16:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It happens that > Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca > doorway. N: Oh, I did not know that. Reading the suttas I think all three are emphasized. Nina 38732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard, op 23-11-2004 18:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > There *is* the following reference to signless release (where > 'sign' is understood to mean sign of permanence) the Mahavedalla Sutta (MN > 43): > ------------------------------------------ > The release of mind in signlessness is based on two factors N: Completely correct, also the footnotes. I found them in the Path of Discrimination, Khuddaka Nikaya. I am glad you feel O.K. and best wishes, Nina. 38733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Howard, op 22-11-2004 14:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. >> N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold >> conditions for each citta. >> > ====================== > If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, > but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) N: I am not thinking only of the cittas arising in a mind-door process, but perhaps Larry meant only that. For each citta: the previous one conditions it by way of contiguity-condition. Rupa conditions citta by way of object or by way of base-dependence condition. As to cetasikas, depending on the kind of cetasika: by hetu, by faculty, by magga, by jhana. Cetasika conditions citta by way of association condition, conascent condition, presence-condition, non-disappearance-condition, mutuality. What did you guess? Nina. 38734 From: naresh gurwani Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Confused about Dhamma Teaching.... Dear Nina Where do i read suttas from ?? I understand the transformation is a gradual process, but this process it self is painful as we are used to see, smell, listen , touch & think the different way from our birth. I still think one needs a right concentration to go ahead pls guide me in this manner. You had aksed me before what i think about death ? Death is definte which we cannot change but never really thought about it more deeply. Waiting your feedback Naresh --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > I answer your letter on dsg, because others are > interested in our exchange > as well, if you don't mind. > op 23-11-2004 03:38 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y... > > As iam still to find > > which is the right path for me which iam still not > > getting.... Iam still living in past & worried > > about my future. > > So i need a technique where in i can apply for > gaining > > more Concetration & dedication. I was reading your > > article in chapter 21st about samatha in which you > have > > described about 5 hindrances > .... i have to overcome > > all this hindrances to gain a satisfied life and > carry > > forward dhamma more correctly & with right vision. > Nina: This is for all of us, they are all the > defilements arising in the > life of an ordinary human being. 38735 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/23/2004 8:51:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: Friend TG, Could you please provide the sutta reference where the Buddha said, "In whatever way we conceive, the fact is ever other than that." I wonder because the use of the word `we' would include the Buddha, and that would mean he said he suffered from delusion. I have some doubts about this. Metta, James Hi James I did fudge it as the quote reads "it" instead of "we." (Although "it" also does not disclude the Buddha.) If the quote is considered though, it does not talk about delusion. It talks to the issue of concepts not representing that "fact of experience/nature." Although the Buddha was able to use concepts without adhering to them or being deluded through their use; concepts used by him also could not exactly express the fact of the matter. I think both quotes below are very interesting in relation to this discussion. The Buddha said – “… in whatever way it is conceived, the fact (actuality) is ever other than that.â€? In the same discourse, referring to the enlightened mind, the Buddha said – “…it does not conceive anything, it does not conceive in regard to anything, it does not conceive in any way.â€? (Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha . . . pg. 911, The True Man, (Sappurisa Sutta, #113) TG 38736 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Is a concept dukkha ? My answer is simple 'no'. Dukkha is something that happens with all sentient beings, is a property of all sentient beings. And a concept is not a sentient being. Only if a sentient being beliefs that a concept is the (ultimate) reality than dukkha does not end with him/her. When I say 'sentient beings' I only know that of human beings. Of all the other sentient beings I can only say something about animals and even about them hardly: I don't know for sure if animals have concepts (as defined in Abhidhamma) in their brains but I think they must have some. Metta Joop 38737 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** If we remember that saññå accompanies every citta, we will better understand that the characteristic of saññå is not exactly the same as what we mean by the conventional terms of ‘recognition’, ‘perception’ or ‘marking’. Each citta which arises falls away immediately and is succeeded by the next citta, and since each citta is accompanied by saññå which recognizes and ‘marks’ the object, one can recognize or remember what was perceived or learnt before. The Atthasåliní mentions as a manifestation of saññå: -‘briefness, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate the -object’. Saññå merely recognizes and ‘marks’ the object. Saññå is different from citta which is the ‘chief’ in knowing an object and different from paññå which can know the true nature of realities (1). *** 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its true characteristics. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38739 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) All, If you also received 58(e) in your in box, pls ingore - it went out too soon and unedited. S. 38740 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry Your questions whether rupa are dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion, Chapter 1 - Aggregates [9. Herein in what sense is it materiality? It is materiality in the sense of being molested. For this is said by the Blessed One: "And why, bhikkhus, is materiality said? It is what is molested, bhikkhus, that is why it is called materiality. Whereby is it molested by hunger, it is molested by thirst, it is molested by gadflies and flies and wind and sun and creeping things. It is molested; that is why is called of materiality (S iii 86).] MN141, <<"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering.>> n DN 16 Maha-Parinibbana sutta "And soon after the Blessed One had eaten the meal provided by Cunda the metalworker, a dire sickness fell upon him, even dysentery, and he suffered sharp and deadly pains. But the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed. " Ken O 38741 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo Hi Htoo Could you tell me which part in the abhidhammatthasangaha as I cannot locate it. According to CMA on the Compendium of Categories Guide to 35, .... The four mental aggregates of Supramundane plane are not aggregate of clinging because they entirely transcend the range of clinging; that is, they cannot become objects of greed or wrong view. It did not mention they are not dukkha, it just without clinging. Ken O 38742 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: Thanks for help given :) - strength of javana process Hi Lee I have found some material that may shed further light on the strength of the javana process. From the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, in Chapter 4, para 21 (pg 137), [The Course of Impulsion in Absorption] <> the authors used impulsion as the translation of javana the change of lineage is about the change of worldings to noble ones Ken O 38743 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Let me put my question straight, I know Htoo likes that: Can animals have dukkha ? Which of the citta's and which of the cetasika's apply to animals ? Metta Joop 38744 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Htoo, You continue to write excellent posts in the Dhamma Thread series. Like Mike, I thought the ones on pannatti were very good and all the cetasikas as I mentioned before. Also on rupas too. Please continue the series on and on! Any comments here are mere nit-picking and not meant to detract from the quality of the thread. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dhamma are > > 1. 1 citta > 2. 52 cetasikas > 3. 18 nipphanna rupas > 4. 1 nibbana > --------------- > 72 dhammas > > These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and > they can be seen under the microscope of panna. …. S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that anipphanna rupas are not ‘real’ dhammas or paramattha dhammas. Even though they are not ‘salakkhana’ does not mean they are not ‘real’. I discussed this same point in detail with B.Bodhi and we both agreed in the end. He even mentioned there’d be a change in the next edition of CMA in this regard. All 28 rupas are paramattha dhammas as I understand, even though the 4 lakkhana rupas are characteristics of other rupas. You also mentioned in #38131, that these 10 rupas ‘are not conditioned.’ Here you said they are paramattha and ‘do have their own characteristics. They are 1 pariccheda rupa, 2 vinatti rupas, 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4 lakkhana rupas.’ You may wish to clarify. It’s a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. The same with akasa rupa – it’s conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned by these causes. We can check the texts if we’re not clear or Nina will help us. I’m a bit rushed now to look up anything. Upekkha (yr post #38655)– there have been discussions on the various meanings. See ‘Upekkha’ in U.P. Also, Nina’s chapter in ‘Cetasikas’ under ‘Equanimity- tatramajjhattataa’ is very helpful. Equanimity as a brahma vihara is an aspect of this cetasika with other beings as objects and should not be confused with upekkha as neutral feeling. Lots of confusion as you say in this regard. I understand that karuna and mudita can arise with either pleasant feeling or neutral feeling just as you say Under conditions (yr post #38570 to Larry), you mentioned pannatti under both arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. I don’t believe the latter can include pannatti? Finally, I think it’s only a matter of language use, but a couple of times, such as in #38159, you’ve referred to ‘nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti’.. Do you mean that nibbana is only *experienced* by the arahats and anagamis……? In which case, I agree. Also in the same post, you refer to anupadisesa nibbana as being a ‘state’. I’m not sure we can refer to it as a state, rather a final cessation of all conditioned dhammas. A little later you again refer to it as ‘the state all Buddhists are trying to attain……’. Not sure I’d put it like this, but I understand your point. Another finally;-) – in the same post and earlier in one as well, you refer to ‘sankhata dhatu are those whose arising and existence are influenced by four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara’. You then rightly explain why nibbana is the asankhata dhatu. Surely we can only refer to all rupa dhatus as as being conditioned by one of these four factors? Again, Htoo, I greatly appreciate and benefit from this long thread and all the detail and research you include. I also understood the points you were making in another thread on the ti-lakkhana and nibbana. Metta and sadhu to you too! Sarah p.s when we finally upload the India recordings, I think you'd find them very interesting to listen to. ======== 38745 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Htoo, --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that > anipphanna rupas are not ‘real’ dhammas or paramattha dhammas ... I just found two of the posts I was referring to. Please see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33803 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31976 Metta, Sarah ====== 38746 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Hello all > 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, > citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a > coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager > who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its > true characteristics. This is a bit off topic, but.... I wonder how we could introduce yoniso-manisakara (sp?) into this simile? Would yoniso m be like the wise man who comes along and sees the money changer offering the coin and feels no particular interest in it? Or does yoniso m have to arise before panna - so yoniso m would be like the wise husband of the money changer who stays by her side to remind her not to get worked up by being near all that money? So she can look at the coin in a calm way and penetrate its characteristics without getting caught up in greed? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 38747 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:31:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "The trouble is that name, meaning, and imagination are three > things, not one, and moreover, it is unclear exactly what they are and > how they are related." > > Hi Howard, > > Are you saying the concept of concept is unsatisfactory? Why does there > have to be only one kind of concept? "Howard", "army", "mental image", > what's unclear about that? It's just a convention; something we agree > on. > > Larry > > ========================= If you like that tripartite definition, it's ok with me. But all three are vague concepts to me to being with. Each instance of name is, itself just a concept. And so on. My feeling is that if, after we give a definition of an idea, and we look at each aspect of that definition, and see that just as much defining still remains to be done at that point, then it becomes clear that the original idea is too vague to be worthwhile to pursue. I'm pretty much willing to say that I don't know what concepts are. It almost seems that there are no such things. Thinking does occur, and perhaps that thinking involves a flow of elementary thoughts, and part of that thinking involves believing that the thoughts, stand for some things called "concepts," but I guess all there actually are are the thoughts, themselves. To me, an elementary thought (as mind-door object) is clearer to me than a name. If you think about it, any so called name is, itself, an abstraction that is ungraspable - at least I can't get my hands on it! I'm starting to become content with realizing that there is thinking, and there are seeing, and tasting, and well ... you know. While I will continue to use sounds and strings of symbols to communicate my thinking, I think I'll leave the nature of concepts to someone else. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38748 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/23/04 11:44:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > I am not willing to state that a concept isn't real: only that it does not > truely represent reality. A concept of a dragon flying around the moon is > only > that; i.e., a concept of a dragon flying around the moon. Its not supposed > to > be a real dragon flying around the moon. (Or arisen elements moving in > relation to a firm shpere...if we want to get more technical.) > > Concepts are a mental object supported by a mental base and conjoined with > consciousness. Except for an Arahat, I believe concepts always contain some > > measure of self-view and therefore are delusion to some degree. Therefore, > except for an Arahat, I would have to consider them associated with Dukkha > and > pretty deeply associatedI think. > > ============================ I don't know what a concept of a dragon flying around the moon is. I do know that we can do some thinking that we describe as thinking about a dragon flying around the moon. In the process of that thinking, enumerable mental images go by. Where and what the concept is I cant say. I think that in actuality, there are just the mental images and other thoughts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38749 From: Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/24/04 12:07:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 22-11-2004 14:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>L:The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas. > >>N: Cetasikas are not the only condition for citta. There are manifold > >>conditions for each citta. > >> > >====================== > >If I could, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. (I could guess, > >but I'd like to hear from you what you mean, Nina.) > N: I am not thinking only of the cittas arising in a mind-door process, but > perhaps Larry meant only that. For each citta: the previous one conditions > it by way of contiguity-condition. Rupa conditions citta by way of object or > by way of base-dependence condition. As to cetasikas, depending on the kind > of cetasika: by hetu, by faculty, by magga, by jhana. Cetasika conditions > citta by way of association condition, conascent condition, > presence-condition, non-disappearance-condition, mutuality. > What did you guess? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My guessing went along the lines you gave, but, of course, without the fine detail. I guess I was confused by Larry's statement "The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas." Larry, did you mean something that remians unanswered by Nina's reply? ---------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38750 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Howard, and all > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. Phil: Yes, you're right. And I'm not certain about it, though I said I was above. No doubt, though, that for the time being at least it doesn't feel right. After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the drop of a cushion. But you're right, certainly I am not sure. I'm staying open to all new understanding. I may return to metta meditation. For the time being, I am encouraged when metta arises unexpectedly. Today, for example. I was in a coffee shop trying to concentrate on some difficult study materials. An elderly man sitting next to me was obviously interested in me (as a non-Japanese) and I secretly wished that he would *not* unterrupt me to chat. Tried to send out unfriendly vibes. But he did interrupt me. And lo and behold metta arose and I had a friendly chat with him when moments earlier I'd been feeling a bit hostile towards him. That's the kind of metta I'm interested in these days. The metta that arises in a conditioned way, unpredictably. > With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with another form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says, train the puppy, not control it. > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, as > you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly dropping them as > one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon as they > come. Phil: I think this is why I am so interested in yoniso manisakaara (sp?) these days. When there is wise attention to attractive objects, greed does not proliferate. When there is wise attention to unpleasant objects, aversion does not proliferate. It seems to me that wise attention is not as refined or rare as panna. There are countless moments in each day when I find myself in a train of thought, and clearly see where it's going, and have an opportunity to circumvent it, and sometimes do, and often don't. It is panna, I guess, that will more often circumvent the unwholesome train of thought. A bit of the first right effort arising here, a bit of the second right effort arising there. And faith that more and more right effort will be conditioned thereby. I do feel confident about that, and grateful to the Budddha. As Nina writes in ADL, we do not have to be distressed when we become aware of our defilements. Instead it can be a cause for gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way to liberation. >And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if they > were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and they > will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. Phil: Yes, you're right. This does happen. Also the kusala cetasikas hiri and ottappa arise in a more realizable way, perhaps? There is a moment of hesitation, of shame, of fear of the kammic implications. Just a moment. And as you say, the renunciation of the unwholesome thought. If it is relinquished wisely once, thanks to panna, it conditions another reliznquishing, perhaps. It is a gradual process. > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions are > just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. You > should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting to > choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the rest easier. Yes, the thoughts are just thoughts, they are not "me." But I think for some reason I began to be concerned for the kammic implications of these unwholesome moments of schadenfreude. This morning I was watching two crops fighting over garbage, while they kept a starving stray cat away from the feast, and I thought that I would not like to be reborn in an animal realm. Of course it will not be *me* who pays for my bad kamma, and I really don't think of this thing very often because we cannot choose patisandhi citta in an intentional way, obviously, but there is a little bit more fear of bad kamma than there used to be. I think this is not a bad thing. Thank you Howard. I appreciate your kind support. Metta, Phil 38751 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Thanks, Nina! :-) In a message dated 11/24/04 12:10:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > I am glad you feel O.K. and best wishes ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38752 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:three characteristics Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/24/04 12:13:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 23-11-2004 16:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >It happens that > >Mahayana emphasizes the anatta doorway and Theravada emphasizes the anicca > >doorway. > N: Oh, I did not know that. Reading the suttas I think all three are > emphasized. > Nina > ======================== It's just my impression, Nina, from a lot of reading, but not officially in any way. I do think my imoression is correct, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38753 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (James) Hi James, and all > You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right > Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. > Sujin philosophy of "no control". Hmm. K Sujin and Nina are wonderful teachers, but I think it is Abhidhamma that I have "brought into." I remember just after I joined DSG you told me that there are other interpretations of Abdhidhamma that allow for more control. You provided a link to a long academic piece that I wasn't able to get into at the time. If possible, could you provide me with an example of Abhidhamma related material that proposes more control? I would very much like to see it. If possible, a precise passage rather than a link to a long article. (I know you're busy - no hurry) >I was speaking from the Buddha's > teaching that we each can make an effort to control the arising of > unwholesome states of mind. Phil, you write, "The arising of > unskillful/evil thoughts is inevitable" and yet this is not true. > An arahant doesn't have unskillful/evil thoughts, and becoming an > arahant is the goal of Buddhism. So when I wrote that we should > resolve to get to the point where we never have unskillful/evil > thoughts, that is what I meant. > You also wrote, "Resolving to do what is impossible is not a good > suggestion to lay on teens, I posted, and I would still agree with > that." Now, what is impossible about becoming an arahant? It is not > even impossible for a teen to become an arahant, as the Buddha > taught. Hmm. Personally, I think it would have been better to give the kids a more realistic picture of what to expect. As I said before (based on a *SUTTA*) the Buddha taught four right efforts, not three. If he had wanted people to block out all bad thoughts, why did he teach the abandoning of bad thoughts that have arisen? Why did he not aim as high as you are aiming? Because he was the Buddha, and knew the middle way. I praised your series, James. Just that one post was off, in my opinion. But, as you said, we won't see eye to eye on that, and that's fine. >You see, I write things to inspire people to accomplish the > most that they can accomplish; that is why my writing made such a > strong impact on you. Yes, that's true. It is stirring to read something that inspires us to aim higher. I enjoyed your series for that reason, and think you'll write great Dhamma books for kids someday. On the other hand, inspirational writing easily slides into looking like wrong view, such as the time your wrote that you think people should be *magnificent* > I applaud your efforts to rid yourself of the evil thoughts you are > now having in regard to the conflict in Iraq. I'm sure that you > will eventually solve the problem since you have resolved to. Thank you James. I think the resolve has been planted. > However, in reading your post, it appears as if you are trying to > learn the dhamma by reading this discussion group. That is not a > very good idea. You should learn the dhamma by reading the words of > the Buddha (the suttas) and by examining your own mind, with > patience. (go to www.accesstoinsight.org for selected suttas if you > don't have the printed copies) Wow! This is very condescending James. I guess you didn't read the whole post because I referred to not one and not two and not three but *nine* suttas. Giving someone a link to access to insight when they have already been making a sincere effort to develop an understanding of suttas through dhamma discussion (I've made many references to AN and SN) is a bit snorky. (I just made that word up.) Also, the point of the post, if you read it, is that I was questioning Jon on the idea of control. I was going against the grain, man! Sheesh! Last time I'll try that! Anyways, thanks for the above "I applaud you efforts" part. That was nice. Phil 38754 From: Hugo Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Venerable Vimalaramsi, Thanks for replying. It is interesting the way I perceive the phrase "only way" after knowing how the word it comes from in Pali is decomposed. I can see how all the different explanations could be applied. > This may help you a little and also in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta > section 19 and 20 of the Digha Nikaya there is a short but detailed > accounting of Dependent origination. Ah!!!!, excellent, thank you very much for the reference!! > If you don't have a copy of the > Digha Nikaya translated by Maurice Walsh let me know and I will write it > out for you. I don't have it, but I wouldn't like to impose this on you, as it seems that it is not a very short discourse. I will try to read it at the monastery next time I go. > I much prefer this translation to the access to insight > translation because the access to insight has the tendency to change some > words that will change the true meaning of what is said. I guess you mean specifically the translation from Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Do you know and if you do, what is your opinion of the translation of this sutta by U Jotika and U Dhamminda? Available here: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf They write: "...this is the one and only way....." Then provide the following explanation: "The one and the only way: ekayano, this means that this is: the only way which surely leads to the benefits listed, there is no other way, and this way leads to nowhere else. This statement does not need to be believed in blindly, but as a meditator practises he can verify it by his own experience". > I sincerely hope that this has been helpful. More than definitely, thanks again. Greetings, -- Hugo 38755 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/24/04 8:30:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi Howard, and all > > > >>Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse > kusala > >>where there is none > >>is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > >>loving-kindness. It > >>seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > >========================= > >Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. > > Phil: Yes, you're right. And I'm not certain about it, though > I said I was above. > No doubt, though, that for the time being at least it doesn't feel right. > After all, the Brahma-Viharas > are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem > to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we > are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well > being for > ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being > available > at the drop of a cushion. > But you're right, certainly I am not sure. I'm staying open to all new > understanding. > I may return to metta meditation. For the time being, I am encouraged when > metta > arises unexpectedly. > Today, for example. I was in a coffee shop trying to concentrate on some > difficult > study materials. An elderly man sitting next to me was obviously interested > in me > (as a non-Japanese) and I secretly wished that he would *not* unterrupt me > to chat. > Tried to send out unfriendly vibes. But he did interrupt me. And lo and > behold metta > arose and I had a friendly chat with him when moments earlier I'd been > feeling a bit > hostile towards him. That's the kind of metta I'm interested in these days. > The metta > that arises in a conditioned way, unpredictably. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that lovingkindness can not be forced. It arises or not depending on conditions. For me personally, it happens that metta meditation has never seemed natural or of much use. But that is my own idiosyncracy. It seems that I somehow naturally tend to react with metta and karuna much of the time. It is just my good fortune, or, more precisely I suppose, "happy" accumulations. However, I do believe that, in general, the inclination towards metta and karuna (and upekkha, for that matter) can be cultivated. If someone should determine that s/he is particularly deficient in any of these, it makes sense to take steps to rectify this. --------------------------------------------- > > > >With regard to these thoughts and even desires > >for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you > would > >do well to consider the following: > > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > >their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > > Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with > another > form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says, > > train the puppy, not control it. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------- > > > 3) Also, by being mindful of thoughts and guarding the mind door, > as > >you (admirably) have been doing, you can avoid concocting further and > >embellishing such thoughts, and, by seeing them clearly and quickly > dropping them as > >one would quickly drop poisonous snakes, you will see them leave as soon > as they > >come. > > Phil: I think this is why I am so interested in yoniso manisakaara (sp?) > these days. When there is > wise attention to attractive objects, greed does not proliferate. When there > is > wise attention to unpleasant objects, aversion does not proliferate. It > seems to me that > wise attention is not as refined or rare as panna. There are countless > moments in each day > when I find myself in a train of thought, and clearly see where it's going, > and have an > opportunity to circumvent it, and sometimes do, and often don't. It is > panna, I guess, > that will more often circumvent the unwholesome train of thought. A bit of > the first > right effort arising here, a bit of the second right effort arising there. > And faith that more and more right effort > will be conditioned thereby. I do feel confident about that, and grateful > to the Budddha. > As Nina writes in ADL, we do not have to be distressed when we become aware > of our > defilements. Instead it can be a cause for gratitude to the Buddha who > teaches the way > to liberation. > > > >And by the process of repeatedly seeing and letting go, the mind will > >become habituated to such relinquishment, and soon these thoughts, as if > they > >were sentient entities, will "realize" that they are unwanted guests, and > they > >will show up less and less often at your mental doorstep. > > Phil: Yes, you're right. This does happen. Also the kusala cetasikas hiri > and > ottappa arise in a more realizable way, perhaps? There is a moment > of hesitation, of shame, of fear of the kammic implications. Just a moment. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Guarding the senses works. ------------------------------------ > And as you say, the renunciation of the unwholesome thought. If it is > relinquished wisely once, thanks to panna, it conditions another > reliznquishing, > perhaps. It is a gradual process. > > > One more thing, Phil: The thoughts are just thoughts, the emotions > are > >just emotions. They are not "you", and no self-condemnation is justified. > You > >should commend yourself for distinguishing good from bad and for wanting > to > >choose the good. Have metta for yourself first, Phil. Feel kindness and > >friendship for yourself, and never the opposite. This will make all the > rest easier. > > Yes, the thoughts are just thoughts, they are not "me." But I think for some > reason > I began to be concerned for the kammic implications of these unwholesome > moments of schadenfreude. This morning I was watching two crops fighting > over > garbage, while they kept a starving stray cat away from the feast, and I > thought that I would not like to be reborn in an animal realm. > Of course it will not be *me* who pays for my bad kamma, and I really don't > think of this thing > very often because we cannot choose patisandhi citta in an intentional way, > obviously, > but there is a little bit more fear of bad kamma than there used to be. I > think this is > not a bad thing. > > Thank you Howard. I appreciate your kind support. > > Metta, > Phil > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38756 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hi Nina Thanks for the feedback. I reread the chapter today. You know, I got so caught up in "Conditions" that I neglected "Cetasikas" and now have to re-start from scratch! That's ok. Patience. > >> i Through how many doors can pleasant mental feeling > >> experience an object? > > > > I guess only one. The mind door. I have a feeling that's not the right > > answer. > N: No. Lobha-muulacitta with pleasant feeling can arise also in the > sense-doors, even when citta does not know much about the object. It is by > accumulations, anatta. Thus, six doors. Ph: Yes, it's difficult for me at this point to understand that there is feeling related to an object even before mind door processes have put things together. > Ph: ii There is a great variety of feelings, but all feelings have > >> something in common. What is the characteristic they have > >> in common? > > > > They are nama? They are not rupa? > :N: they experience the flavour of the object. > (snipped) Ph:. Here is a relevant bit related to this - "Dosa and domanassa always arise together. It is difficult to distinguish between these two realities, but they are different cetasikas. Domanassa is feeling, it experiences the taste of the undesirable object. Dosa is not feeling, it has a different characteristic. Dosa does not like the object which is experienced." I see. A reminder here that the cetasika feeling is not what we conventionally think of as feeling. What we conventionally think of as feeling is more like dosa, I guess. Thanks for the other explanations. Very clear, as always, when I read your explanation - and then I forget again. But my failing the self-test in public turned out to be a good idea, as I thought it might. It spurred me to reconnect to "Cetasikas." Metta, Phil 38757 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, Actually the section that I was talking about in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta is relatively short and I don't mind copying it for you. I like to do this sort of thing because I always benefit from doing it. I am continually seeing things in a deeper way when I write out a sutta. So here it goes: 19] 'And what, is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering? It is craving which gives rise to rebirth, bound up with pleasure now here, now there: that is to say sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. 'And where does this craving arise and establish itself? Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there this craving arises and establishes itself.'' 'And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? The eye in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the ear in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the nose in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the tongue in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the body in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the mind in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact. feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of mind-contact, in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'The perception of sights, or sounds, of smells, of tastes, of tangibles, of mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Volition in regard to sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'The craving for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Thinking of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. 'Pondering on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving arises and establishes itself. And that monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering. 20] 'And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the complete fading away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and abandonment, liberation from it, detachment from it. And how does this craving come to be abandoned; how does its cessation come about? 'Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there its cessation comes about. And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? 'The eye in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the ear in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the nose in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the tongue in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the body in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, the mind in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness in the world is agreeable and pleasurable, and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'The perception of sights, or sounds, of smells, of tastes, of tangibles, of mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Volition in regard to sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Thinking of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. 'Pondering on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mind-objects in the world is agreeable and pleasurable and there this craving comes to be abandoned, there its cessation comes about. And that monks, is called the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. So there now you have it. Hope this is useful to you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38758 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, I forgot to tell you that Venerables Jotika and Dhamminda are friends of mine and they asked me to edit some of this. At the time I was practicing the Mahasi method of meditation and thought that it was pretty good. But now I think it is a little limited in this approach. It could have been expanded a bit more like Sayadaw U Silananda did and it would have been better. And, and this is a big addition I completely agree with the idea that it takes the direct experience of meditation to truly see this. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38759 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:58am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Friend Phil, If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. It seems to me as if you easily take offense to very neutral things I write. So we'll just leave it at that. Metta, `Snorky' James ;-)) 38760 From: Hugo Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Ven. Vimalaramsi, On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:59:57 -0500, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > I forgot to tell you that Venerables Jotika and Dhamminda are friends of > mine and they asked me to edit some of this. So, in the absence of Maurice Walsh's translation do you think that I will be fine reading: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mahasati.pdf the translation of the sutta by U Jotika and U Dhamminda? -- Hugo 38761 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard There is no doubt there are three way of liberation. But is there a difference in the three way of liberations, please read below. Non Buddhist even though can have knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they are visible but they cannot lead to cessation of rebirth as the attainment of the cessation of birth (in the Thervada) depends on the three characteristics (must have anatta). My opinion is that selfless acts by non-buddhist will not lead to liberation as they do not understand anatta. Visud para 73 <> Expositor pg 303 <> Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary (54) Once he is in this way free of the obstacles, he considers the three marks by means of succession of insights beginning with the knowledge of rise and fall and culminating in the knowledge of conformity; these nine insight knowledge are called 'purification of knowing and seeing the way.' (my note - see Visud chapter XXI for the detail explanation of the nine insight knowledge) (55) As he is so engaged, owing to the maturity of insight and signifying that absorption will now arise, mind-door adverting interrupts the existence-continuum, and is followed immediately by two or three characteristics beginning with impermanence, and called 'preparatory', 'access' and 'conformity'. (56) And when this has reach its peak, that same equanimity regarding formations along the conformity is called 'insight leading to emergence' {57) After that, with Nibbana as its object, the change of lineage consciousness occurs, overcoming the lineage of the ordinary person and arriving at the lineage of the noble ones. . . . (64) Therefore if the insight leading to the emergence gains insight into [formations] as not self, the path to liberation is called 'emptiness' (65) If it gains into [formations] as impermanent, it is liberation called 'signless'; (66) and if it gains insight into [formations] as suffering, it is liberation called 'wishless'. So the path acquires three names by way of the arrival of insight and likewise the fruit [occurring] in the consciousness process of the path, by way of the arrival of the path. (67) However, in the case of those practicing insight in the manner stated in the [consciousness] process leading to the attainment of the fruit, although the respective fruit arise, it is termed 'the liberation of emptiness' and so on only by virtue of the arrival of insight [at that point]. But the three names apply equally to all [the path and fruits] in all circumstances by virtue of their object and their own properties. *[comy - object is Nibbana] *actually the above notes can also be seen in CMA In the sutta MN 43, Mahavedalla Sutta, under footnote 457, <> Ken O 38762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi Larry, op 24-11-2004 05:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Ken O: "Concepts do condition dukkha but they dont experience dukkha. " > > Hi Ken, > > Is rupa dukkha? N: Yes, because it arises and falls away, it is impermanent and thus no refuge. See the suttas! Kindred S. IV, sutta 1: The same about the other sense organs, and the sense objects. Nina. 38763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran Dear Andrew, op 24-11-2004 05:22 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > What an excellent suggestion. I will be sure to bring it to Ken H's > attention. He has gone to the city to visit his ill father for a few > days. N: I am sorry to hear this and hope his father is feeling better. A: Alas, I fear Ken H will arrive at Cooran with his usual page of notes > written in very faint pencil. N: For sure the seawater. I hope you can record the meeting. A:(-: But the quality of his questions is > always very high and that's the important part! > We are also looking forward to Christine telling us more of your > discussions in India. N: I am writing about them, but slowly. Nina. 38764 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Howard: "My guessing went along the lines you gave, but, of course, without the fine detail. I guess I was confused by Larry's statement "The functioning of mind-door cittas depends purely on their cetasikas." Larry, did you mean something that remains unanswered by Nina's reply?" Hi Howard and Nina, What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. Sense door consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind-door adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door processes, respectively. Larry 38765 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 133 ) Dear Sarah, Very valuable comments. I accept all with happiness. I read your linked message or Bhikkhu Bohi& you exchange, Nina's rupa post. Both are clear. Below, you can see my replies. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, You continue to write excellent posts in the Dhamma Thread series. Like Mike, I thought the ones on pannatti were very good and all the cetasikas as I mentioned before. Also on rupas too. Please continue the series on and on! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am going with two tracks. One track is delivering mode. Another track is responding mode. I say 'track' because all are here on the DSG list and we can trace at any time. As once you corrected me, I do hope you will continue to do so. You may remember my short messages of some summaries of dhamma. I put dhammarammana and dhammayatana together. Like this again, my reply to Larry ( I think ) wrongly mentioned pannatta as arammanadhipati paccaya. No. It is not. As long as time and condition favour me, I will be writing Dhamma Thread more than 1000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Any comments here are mere nit-picking and not meant to detract from the quality of the thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I will respond. This will not hinder the flow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Htoo's old post] > Dhamma are > 1. 1 citta > 2. 52 cetasikas > 3. 18 nipphanna rupas > 4. 1 nibbana > --------------- > 72 dhammas > These are real dhammas. These do exist and they can be tested and > they can be seen under the microscope of panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: There seems to be a suggestion here and in an earlier post that anipphanna rupas are not `real' dhammas or paramattha dhammas. Even though they are not `salakkhana' does not mean they are not `real'. I discussed this same point in detail with B.Bodhi and we both agreed in the end. He even mentioned there'd be a change in the next edition of CMA in this regard. All 28 rupas are paramattha dhammas as I understand, even though the 4 lakkhana rupas are characteristics of other rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. I have read the link you made. Yes all 28 rupas are realities. They are ultimate realities. But 18 salakkhana rupas can be seen under the microscope of nana. They can work as objects for arising of higher nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You also mentioned in #38131, that these 10 rupas `are not conditioned.' Here you said they are paramattha and `do have their own characteristics.They are 1 pariccheda rupa, 2 vinatti rupas, 3 lahutadi rupas, and 4lakkhana rupas.' You may wish to clarify. It's a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree this is a hard area to touch. Akasa. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Hmmm. Yes, indirectly they may be. 2 vinattis. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Cittas cause them. Kamma and vinatti, utu and vinatti, ahara and vinatti. I do not think so. Citta, yes. 3 lahutadis. Citta, ahara, kamma. Hmmm. Yes, may well be. But kamma and lahutadis. No. Not that. 4 lakkhanas. Kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Hmmm. Hard. I do not believe so. They are ultimate realities. But kamma does not dictate to arise these, pass away these. Citta does not dictate, utu does not dictate, ahara does not dictate. Actually they do not arise and do not pass away. What arise and pass away are these 4 rupa's host. That is 18 salakkhana rupas. Vinattis again. Does it arise and pass away? Need to check. I do not think vinatti arise and pass away. But vinatti do exist. What arise and pass away are these 2 vinatti's host that is 18 salakkhana rupas. Akasa. Does it arise? Does it pass away? Need to check. I do not think akasa arises and passes away. What arise and pass away are akasa's host. Let us think imaginably. There is the space that astronauts float around. There are two masses. One is the earth and another is Mar. The earth did arise. The earth will soon pass away. It is soon. It will pass away soon. Mar did arise. Mar will one day pass away and disappear. But the space between the earth and Mar never arise, never pass away. You might think that that space is real. Actually it is not. Space does not arise and does not pass away. What arise and pass away are akasa's host. But akasa does exist and it is a reality. Again 3 lahutadis. They do not arise and pass away. Only their host arise and pass away. But all 3 lahutadi rupas are realities. My idea seems saying 10 rupa do not exist. No. They are realities and they do exist. But they do not arise and do not pass away. The problem is the word 'exist'. Someone may point out what I meant by 'exist'. When the appropriate can be discovered, I might change to that word. 18 salakkhana rupas , 18 nipphanna rupas arise and fall away. They have 17 times the life of a citta. 10 rupas exist. But they do not arise and do not fall away. How do you think? Any previous discussion on these? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The same with akasa rupa – it's conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned by these causes. We can check the texts if we're not clear or Nina will help us. I'm a bit rushed now to look up anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand your position. More than 100 emails and Sarah! I hope Nina would re-touch these again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Upekkha (yr post #38655)– there have been discussions on the various meanings. See `Upekkha' in U.P. Also, Nina's chapter in `Cetasikas' under`Equanimity- tatramajjhattataa' is very helpful. Equanimity as a brahma vihara is an aspect of this cetasika with other beings as objects and should not be confused with upekkha as neutral feeling. Lots of confusion as you say in this regard. I understand that karuna and mudita can arise with either pleasant feeling or neutral feeling just as you say Under conditions (yr post #38570 to Larry), you mentioned pannatti under both arammana paccaya and arammanadhipati paccaya. I don't believe the latter can include pannatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I admitted above. Pannatti does not serve as arammanadhipati paccaya. I put wrongly in the reply to Larry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Finally, I think it's only a matter of language use, but a couple of times, such as in #38159, you've referred to `nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti'.. Do you mean that nibbana is only *experienced* by the arahats and anagamis……? In which case, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Experienced. I think I might have been wrong. I will check that message again. Actually I typed in a rush at geocities' 'Patthana Dhamma' and I copied it and pasted it in Dhamma Thread. You know the site. Nibbana is written in page 29. So type the adress and end with 'patthana29.html' will lead you to that page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also in the same post, you refer to anupadisesa nibbana as being a `state'. I'm not sure we can refer to it as a state, rather a final cessation of all conditioned dhammas. A little later you again refer to it as `the state all Buddhists are trying to attain……'. Not sure I'd put it like this, but I understand your point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for pointing out this fact. What about if I said it is non- state? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Another finally;-) – in the same post and earlier in one as well, you refer to `sankhata dhatu are those whose arising and existence are influenced by four causes namely kamma, citta, utu, and ahara'. You then rightly explain why nibbana is the asankhata dhatu. Surely we can only refer to all rupa dhatus as as being conditioned by one of these four factors? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I think it is better to tell on rupa. In Myanmar language it is said that 'Rupa is called rupa because it is changing and conditioned by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Again, Htoo, I greatly appreciate and benefit from this long thread and all the detail and research you include. I also understood the points you were making in another thread on the ti-lakkhana and nibbana. Metta and sadhu to you too! Sarah p.s when we finally upload the India recordings, I think you'd find them very interesting to listen to. ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But it brought controversial discussion. Whether arahat-to-be just saw anicca or dukkha or anatta becomes another issue. Actually all these are seen and realised. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38766 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Yahoo Group DSG's description Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo - =================== I wonder why you raise this matter. Were some folks questioning this? Or did some want to censor aspects of it? It does seem that the list members as a whole do exercise all aspects of the description, and very little that falls outside it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo replied: Dear Howard, :-) to cover little that falls outside it. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 38767 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 11/23/04 3:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Do you know 8 vimokkhas as described in 'Mahanidana Sutta DN 15' ? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ==================== Yes, I've seen that. I don't understand the 1st three. Why, BTW, do you ask? >With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, The last is much more difficult and the following scripts much much more difficult. With Metta, Htoo Naing 38768 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo In a message dated 11/24/2004 4:49:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that in actuality, there are just the mental images and other thoughts. With metta, Howard Exactly! Mental Object. Looking for concepts as existing (or not existing) in some way outside of mental object, is a flight in fantasy: and unnecessarily complicates something that doesn't need to be complicated. (Maybe that's why its a non-issue in the Suttas.) Mental Objects are states that arise and cease...'coincidentally' just like concepts. The dictionary defines "concept" excellently -- "an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct." (Random House College Dict.) Sounds pretty Dependent Originated to me! “Whatever is felt is included within suffering. That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 569 – 570) TG 38769 From: Larry Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi Ken, This is how I see it today. First, I think you are mistranslating dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. As a GENERAL characteristic dukkha is a concept, like impermanence and anatta. Our convention is that these concepts, in the ultimate sense, only apply to ultimate realities. It makes perfect sense to say government is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self, and in middle-way philosophy this is considered ultimate truth, but in Theravada conventions "unsatisfactory" depends on impermanence (and no control)and only certain "realities" are ultimately impermanent. So concept is not dukkha. However, as one of the Four Noble Truths, dukkha is an ultimate reality, not a concept. As an ultimate reality it has a PARTICULAR characteristic (sabhava). Imo, that characteristic can only be dosa (aversion) consciousness. So, whatever is the object of dosa is unsatisfactory. Concept is one of the dhammas that can be an object of dosa. Concept is dukkha in satipatthana. The unsatisfactoriness of concept is due to the fact that concept is purported to point to reality but it doesn't "really" do that. See Howard and TG's notes for further elaboration on this theme. Concept is error itself and, as such, is the root of all unsatisfactoriness. Larry 38770 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] yoniso manasikara. Hello Phil, op 24-11-2004 12:53 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: >> 1) The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) explains the difference between saññå, >> citta and paññå by way of a simile. Saññå is like the mere perception of a >> coin by a child who does not know its value. Citta is like the villager >> who knows its value. Paññå is like the money-changer who penetrates its >> true characteristics. N: Here follows the Tiika: The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** > This is a bit off topic, but.... > I wonder how we could introduce yoniso-manisakara (sp?) into this simile? N: When the determining consciousness in the sense-door process and the mind-door adverting consciousness in a mind-door process are followed by javana cittas which are kusala, accompanied by pañña or not, there is proper attention to the object which is experienced. Thus, yoniso-manisakara refers here to the whole series of javana cittas. Manasikara has different meanings depending on the context. Manasikara denotes two cittas: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, and it is called controller of the sense-door process. And also the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is called controller of the javanas. Then there is manasikara cetasika, attention, which arises with each citta. Remark : interesting, you were just writing about control in other posts. Now you see: there is control, but not you who controls. There have to be right conditions and the foremost one is right understanding of your cittas, of what your life is: nama and rupa. Listening, studying, considering Dhamma. Remembering that the Abhidhamma gives the taste of anatta, as Rob K said to you. Nina. 38771 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Dear Naresh, op 24-11-2004 04:56 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > > Where do i read suttas from ?? Nina: You probably have no books over there in Curacao. Suttas are on line and kind people here can give you links. Also on this forum quotes of suttas are given, like Bhante Vimalaramsi today. Sutta reading is not easy, many questions will come up, but that is good. Naresh: I understand the transformation is a gradual process, > but this process it self is painful as we are used to > see, smell, listen , touch & think the different way > from our birth. Nina: thanks to the Buddha we learn more now how much we cling to all objects, and we did not know this before. That is a gain. See the sutta about craving, Bhante quoted. You live a lot in the past, worrying. Here is another sutta, from Kindred Sayings 1: ahead pls guide me in this manner.: Nina: Right understanding comes first, but it is accompanied by right concentration, right mindfulness, and other factors. If we sit down and just concentrate without any understanding, would it be fruitful? You can try for yourself whhether this helps you or not. See this sutta, Kindred Sayings: > 2 15(5) Devaputtasamyutta - Candana Standing to one side, the young deva Candana addressed the Blessed One in verse: "Who here crosses over the flood, Unwearying by day and night? Who does not sink in the deep, Without support, without a hold?" ]n.164] "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross. "One who desists from sensual perception, Who has overcome the fetter of form, Who has destroyed delight in existence - He does not sink in the deep." [n.165]> Remark: we read:< "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross.> It is not just concentration as you see. > Naresh: You had aksed me before what i think about death ? > > Death is definite which we cannot change but never > really thought about it more deeply. Nina: The first moment of life did not come out of nothing, it was preceded by the last moment of your previous life. The last moment of this life falls away and will be succeeded by the first moment of your next life. In this life there was happiness and pain, we did good and bad deeds, and we shall receive the results of our deeds, in this lfe and lives to come. So it will go on, until by wisdom fully developed we are freed from the cycle. What happens at the end of life is not different from this moment now: seeing arises and falls away, sadness arises and falls away. Everything that arises goes completely away. At each moment there is birth and death. Another sutta, about death, from Kindred Sayings: Nina. P.S. I hope others will give suttas to Naresh, we can all profit. 38772 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread, rupa as characteristic, space. Dear Sarah and Htoo, op 24-11-2004 11:54 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > You may wish to clarify. It’s a difficult area. You mentioned the 4 > lakkhana rupas are not influenced by kamma, citta, utu, and ahara as their > causes, but as characteristics of other rupas which are conditioned by > these causes, I believe they are said to be conditioned dhammas and > (indirectly) conditioned by the same causes. The same with akasa rupa – > it’s conditioned as a result of delimiting the rupas which are conditioned > by these causes. We can check the texts if we’re not clear or Nina will > help us. N: Some texts: Vis.80 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth [that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their function. N: As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination, continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of rupa. Since they are characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising, however, from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination and continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group. The Vis. enumerates the rupas that are originated by citta or as appropriate by the other causes, and includes here the two rupas of growth of matter, continuity of matter. These two are actually the origin or birth of rupa as we have seen. Continuity or development follows immediately upon growth, which is the first moment of a group of rupas. When we consider the moment that a cause such as citta begins to originate a group of rupas, it is allowable to see also the characteristics of origination and continuity inherent in a group of rupas as being caused by citta. Thus in that sense there is arising of arising. This cannot be said of decay and impermanence, since these manifest themselves after the moments of growth and development. In olden times this was an issue and we read about debates about this subject in the Expositor (II, p. 442, and also in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, p. 243). We read in the Expositor: ²But in the ultimnate sense birth does not come into being. To one who is being born, the mere [fact of] rebirth comes into being. ... Maturity and breaking up do not get that common usage. And why? From their absence at the moment when the productive cause is powerful. for there is power to productive causes only at the moment of the production of a state to be produced; none subsequent to that...² Space: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three characteristics. Nina. 38773 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 53-Feeling/Vedana (z) Hello Phil, op 24-11-2004 15:40 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > But my failing the self-test in public turned out to be a good idea, as I > thought it might. > It spurred me to reconnect to "Cetasikas." N: No, not failing. It is also a test for me. To think matters over more. Did I understand everything myself? Not yet quite! Nina. 38774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)metta Hi Howard, op 24-11-2004 15:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > However, I do believe that, in general, the inclination towards metta and > karuna (and upekkha, for that matter) can be cultivated. If someone should > determine that s/he is particularly deficient in any of these, it makes sense > to > take steps to rectify this. N: I like this. A. Sujin said this of the perfections. I suppose, some work to do, I am deficient in all!! But pañña is the leader of them all. Nina. 38775 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Hugo, Yes, it is a pretty good translation but compare it with Maurice Walsh's translations for good measure. Maha-Metta always, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38776 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (James) Hello Phil, and James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > > > You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue of Right > > Resolve because it appears that you have mentally bought into the K. > > Sujin philosophy of "no control". > .....snip... Giving someone a link to access to insight when they have already > been > making a sincere effort to develop an understanding of suttas through > dhamma discussion (I've made many references to AN and SN) is a bit > snorky. (I just made that word up.) ....Phil Azita: have just returned home from nite shift, thought I'd have a quick read of any inspiring posts on dsg, and read this one which made me laugh and laugh! I love the word 'snorky' and I see James has signed himself off 'Snorky James'. Maybe not so inspiring Dhamma-wise but just perfect for a snorky zombie after nite beat - thanks guys!! Patience, courage and good cheer, and I feel really cheerful right now, Azita. 38777 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Vism.XIV,116 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into focus in the mind door, then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises accompanied by equanimity, as it were, cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness should be understood as adverting. 38778 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/24/04 1:32:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > There is no doubt there are three way of liberation. But is there a > difference in the three way of liberations, please read below. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would sooner speak of three *doors* to liberation. And I do think these doors are different, but the moment one is opened, so are the others. -------------------------------------- Non> > Buddhist even though can have knowledge of anicca and dukkha as they > are visible but they cannot lead to cessation of rebirth as the > attainment of the cessation of birth (in the Thervada) depends on the > three characteristics (must have anatta). ----------------------------------- Howard: Non-Buddhists, provided that they never engaged in Dhamma practice in any lifetime, will have only conventional knowledge of anicca and dukkha. Incidently, others beside Buddhas and Buddhists had the *notion* of anatta, though apparently not in India circa 500 BCE. But the mere conventional knowledge of any of these, including anatta, is insufficient for liberation. Penetration of one of these, fully, by a perfected wisdom which sees exactly how dhammas arise and cease dependently and how suffering arises from grasping, is required. The Buddha, of course, being a Buddha, had the quintessence of realization and had mastered all the perfections, and thus was a perfect teacher of Dhamma, including anatta. But even his teaching of Dhamma, including anatta, was insufficient, on its own, to lead others to liberation. Their minds had to be fertile fields for that teaching, cultivated by much practice, either in that lifetime or prior ones. What is most important in the Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is not so much his reporting of the insights into reality he obtained, but his methods of training that lead to them, and to the realization of nibbana. ----------------------------------------------- My opinion is that selfless> > acts by non-buddhist will not lead to liberation as they do not > understand anatta. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Some may understand it, but only at the conventional level. That is equally so for Buddhists. What constitutes being a Buddhist? Taking refuge? That won't necessarily do anything. Taking the precepts? All religions observe the Buddhist precepts. ---------------------------------------- > > > Visud para 73 > < follows: (i) It is expressed firstly as the void liberation by its > liberating from misinterpreting [formations]: Knowledge of > contemplation of impermanence is the void liberation since it > liberates from interpreting [them] as permanent; knowledge of > contemplation of pain is the void liberation since it liberates from > interpreting [them] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of > not-self is the void liberation since it liberates from interpreting > [them] as self (Ps.ii.67] > > (ii) Then it is expressed the signless liberation by liberating from > signs: "Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence is the signless > liberation since it liberates from the sign [of formations] as > permanent; knowledge of contemplation of pain is > the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign [of > formations] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of not-self is > the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign [of > formations] as self. > > (iii) Lastly it is expressed as the desireless liberation by its > liberation from desire: "Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence > is the desireless liberation since it liberates from desire [for > formations] as permanent; knowledge of contemplation of of pain is > the desireless liberation since it liberates from the desire [for > them] as pleasant; knowledge of contemplation of not-self is > desireless liberation since it liberates from the desire [for them] > as self (Ps.ii.68)>> > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I see the foregoing as Item (i) says that insight knowledge is a "void liberation" in three differing ways: seeing formations as empty of permanence, empty of pleasantness, and empty of self. Item (ii) says that insight knowledge is a "signless liberation" in three differing ways: seeing in formations no sign of permanence, no sign of pleasantness, and no sign of self. Item (iii) says that insight knowledge is a "desireless liberation" in that it liberates one from the desire for each of three different things: permanence of formations, pleasantness of formations, and selfhood of formations. Now, this is not at all the usual way of describing the three doors to liberation. Usually voidness liberation is associated with not-self, signless liberation with impermanence, and wishless liberation with dukkha. I don't put much stock in the foregoing. The Ps is a rather late addition to the Sutta Pitaka, is radically different from earlier suttas, and is clearly a cut-and-paste document that is commentaral in sense and style. -------------------------------------------------- > > Expositor pg 303 > < on any given occasion there is the emergence of the Path, the three > characteristic signs present themselves as if by a single act of > 'adverting'. There is no simultaneous presentation of the three, yet > it is said so, to show when the station of religious exercise is > manifested. Indeed from the outset, let there be anywhere a > conviction [of the mind], then insight making for emergence, as it > emerges gives the name of the path to whatever sign it has grasped, > placing it at the point of arrival by just that sign. How? Because > of the disposition here or there respecting any one of the three > Signs, the rule is that the other two Signs are seen also, for when > one Sign alone is seen, there is no emergence of the path. Hence the > bhikkhu [225] who is convinced to impermanence, emerges not solely as > to that, but also as to the other two; similarly if he start with > either of these two.>> ------------------------------------------ Howard: THIS selection, however, seems to very much make my case that there are three distinct doors, and the opening of any one immediately opens the others as well. Moreover, this selection has an admirable clarity to it! Perhaps I should get hold of a copy of the Expositor! I think there is much that I could learn from it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38779 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/24/04 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >Is rupa dukkha? > N: Yes, because it arises and falls away, it is impermanent and thus no > refuge. See the suttas! > ===================== I like the part "and thus no refuge"! I think this is a wonderful way of expressing what it means for conditioned dhammas to be dukkha. I've often thought that the dukkha of conditioned dhammas is their unworthiness of being grasped at, and there being no lasting satisfaction to be found in them. Describing them as being "no refuge" seems to sum all that up and much more. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38780 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hi James > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. When I read this, I threw my coffee mug against the wall. You see, there is no way to try to predict or control the cittas of others. haha. Sensible decision, James. I have a tendency to get irritated by a great many things, so please don't take it personally. I'm sure you didn't. BTW, not to beat a dead cat, but I happened across another sutta this morning that really drives home the point I was making about the unskillfulness of trying to block out all bad thoughts. It was the one (in MN I think, the reference didn't print out) in which Uggahamana said that the skillful person is one who does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. The Buddha told him that this could apply to a stupid baby boy, and then went on to say that it is by knowing from experience that there are unskillful habits, unskillful resolves etc that one makes progress towards the cessation of same. The "stupid baby boy" bit would go over well with teens, I think, so it *might* be something to consider in the future. Also, when I asked for Abhidhamma related material that point at control, I wasn't doing it in a he-will-not-be-able-to-answer-and-I-will-be-proven-right way. I am sincerely interested, so if you know of any please do pass them along. Thanks and metta Snorky Phil. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "buddhatrue" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 1:58 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > Friend Phil, > > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. It seems to me as if > you easily take offense to very neutral things I write. So we'll > just leave it at that. > > Metta, > `Snorky' James ;-)) > 38781 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. Sense door > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind-door > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > processes, respectively. > > Larry > > ======================== Thanks for the clarification. I am particularly interested in your paragraph that says the following: ___________ What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. ----------------- Actually, it seems to me that taking, for the moment, the meaning of 'citta' to be "mindstate" rather than "act of consciousness", the "static nature" of a citta, as opposed to its "arising-nature", is completely determined by the object of the mindstate and its cetasikas. [The consciousness involved, whether that is the mere experiential presence of the object (as I believe) or an operation of knowing, doesn't distinguish one citta from another.] ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38782 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/24/04 2:42:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > The dictionary defines "concept" excellently -- "an idea of something > formed > by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct." > (Random House College Dict.) > ===================== Hmm, yes, but what I think is going on is that there is a flow of mental objects, including short-term memories and thoughts of "unity" that seem to project some sort of shadow-reality that is actually non-existent. That non-existent but imagined projection is what is typically taken to be a "concept", and that, in fact, is actually nothing. All there is is the mental processing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38783 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/24/04 3:08:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > This is how I see it today. First, I think you are mistranslating > dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather > than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory > but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. > ======================= Exactly! That is what I meant when in the past I wrote that there are (at least) two senses for 'dukkha', one a characteristic of (conditioned) dhammas, and the other a mental state. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38784 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:51pm Subject: Pali request Hello all Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time I brush my teeth. Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. Also, the Pali for "Is form constant or inconstant" as well as for the other four aggregates? Thanks in advance. Metta Phil 38785 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), I would like to butt in here... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika (desire > > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without its > > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. ===== We might be mixing up terms here. Can I suggest that we agree on: - Citta (with a "C"): is the paramattha dhamma aka vinnana - citta (with a "c")" is a mental state, a collection of Citta + cetasikas The function of Citta is always the same (in all cittas). The function of Citta is always to be the forerunner of cetasikas; to preside over and be accompanied by the cetasikas (see CMA p29). Not only does Citta always have the same function, each of the cetasiksas within the citta always has the same function. For example, the cetasika lobha always has the function of "sticking". If within a citta, the Citta and all the cetasikas have fixed functions, how could there be any variation? Eye-consciousness citta and ear-consciousness citta both have Citta and the exact same set of cetasikas. They are different because they have a different object and a different base. In other words, object and base play a role in making one citta different from another. Accumulations play an extremely important role in making one citta different from another. The greed-rooted javana citta has a set of cetasikas each with their own function. The relative STRENGTH of the various cetasikas will be determined by accumulations. This is why we can have degrees of attachment and degrees of kamma. You are correct to say that the function of javana cittas will always be the same (generate kamma for non-Arahants). However, the type of kamma and the strength of kamma generated will vary all over the map based on accumulations and the object involved. Trying to define the function of the citta in the citta process solely by considering the function of the Citta and cetasikas is too limiting. For example, the Five-Sense-Door Adverting Consciousness, the Receiving Consciousness and the Investigating Consciousness with Indifferent Feeling all have exactly the same set of cetasikas, yet they each perform different functions in the citta process. The function of a citta in the citta process is dictated by citta- niyama (law of citta; a commentarial term not described in any detail in the commentaries). The Citta and cetasikas involved in the citta support the citta in the performing of this function by each performing their own specific function. ===== > > Sense door > > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little different, of > > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind- door > > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but that > > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting are > > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > > processes, respectively. ===== The cetasika sanna plays the same role in all cittas. In some cittas, the cetasika sanna may play a more important role in supporting the function of the citta as defined by citta-niyama. The tadarammana citta arises naturally (according to citta-niyama) because the javana cittas are finished yet the object still persists. The same past kamma which caused the arising of the earlier cittas in the process now pushes the tadarammana citta into existence. The nature of the tadarammana citta (pleasant or indifferent feeling, strength of various cetasikas) will be influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support condition. The votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta comes to a conclusion regarding an object. The investigating function, where sanna and vicara would play an important role, was done by the santirana citta. You may find it interesting to note that within the citta process, votthapana is the first arising of energy (viriya). Perhaps you may want to characterize votthapana as being more energetic than previous cittas in the citta process? The falling away of the votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta is one of the conditions for the arising of the set of javana cittas. The type of javana cittas which arise depends on accumulations. Hope that this helps :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38786 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Rob (and Larry and Nina) - In a message dated 11/24/04 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > I would like to butt in here... > > ============================ I like the Citta vs citta distinction very much, but I will never remember which is which!! ;-)) One point I'd like to address in your post: You pointed out that various cetasikas are "the same" in all mindstates. I don't think that is "quite" true, as there are variations of various sorts, including variation of strength, and other nuances. Each so called cetasika is, itself, actually a khandha of sorts - an aggregate of similar phenomena. Also, more specifically, sa~n~na doesn't function the same in all mindstates, I believe. Sometimes it is a marking operation, but other times it is a memory-comparison operation making use of markings left by prior Sa~n~na's. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38787 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi Howard ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Some may understand it, but only at the conventional level. > That is equally so for Buddhists. What constitutes being a Buddhist? Taking refuge? That won't necessarily do anything. Taking the precepts? All religions observe the Buddhist precepts. --------------------------------------------------------- k: Yes religions followed precepts, but in the Book of Analysis, under the chapter Analysis of the Precepts, one can do perform precepts without any association with panna. I am not saying that Buddhist are better than non-Buddhist in virtue or conduct, I am trying to say that anatta make a pivotal difference in cessation of rebirth as non-Buddhist have the other two and not three. ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would sooner speak of three *doors* to liberation. And I > do think these doors are different, but the moment one is opened, so are the others. > -------------------------------------- k: The doors are different because the insight that emerges to take one of the three characteristics will determine the door of liberation. ---------------------------------------- > The Buddha, of course, being a Buddha, had the quintessence > of realization and had mastered all the perfections, and thus was a > perfect teacher of Dhamma, including anatta. But even his teaching of Dhamma, including anatta, was insufficient, on its own, to lead others to liberation. Their minds had to be fertile fields for that teaching, cultivated by much practice, either in that lifetime or prior ones. What is most important in the Buddhadhamma, in my opinion, is not so much his reporting of the insights into reality he obtained, but his methods of training that lead to them, and to the realization of nibbana. > ----------------------------------------------- k: There is no doubt there are non-Buddhists who mind are fertile and melleable for teaching of anatta. Buddhist at first wishes to teach his two teachers as he knows they will know the truth very fast but unfortunately both of them passed away. To me insights and methods are equally important for all types of worldings. Furthemore, his methods and insight are all based on the three characteristics. --------------------------------------------------- > I don't put much stock in the foregoing. The Ps is a rather late addition to the Sutta Pitaka, is radically different from earlier suttas, and is clearly a cut-and-paste document that is commentaral in sense and style. > -------------------------------------------------- k: By the way, what is Ps? I do not know. I just quoting the above as I seen it in Visud which I think should be correct. Ken O 38788 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hello again, James. Come to think of it, sorry for the overkill with that sutta reference. I am enthusiastic about the topic, but you've been patient enough. No need to reply. Still interested in the Abhidhamma material, if it's available. If your contention that it is K Sujin's "no control" philosophy rather than Abhidhamma is true, it is definitely something I need to know more about. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > Hi James > > > If I reply to any of this post I'm afraid you will become absolutely > > unglued, go ballistic, and we will have a repeat of the type of > > posts we exchanged when you first joined DSG. 38789 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Friend Phil, Okay, I will try to give you a response since you seem to really want it. Phil: Sensible decision, James. I have a tendency to get irritated by a great many things, so please don't take it personally. I'm sure you didn't. James: It is good of you to admit this. I also get irritated by a great many things but try my best to work on that tendency and to decrease the irritation. How? I examine my thoughts and my bodily reactions until the process becomes unraveled and dissipates. Am I always successful? No. Actually, the thing that seems to irritate me quite often is this group! ;-)) I have a friend here in Egypt who practically begs me not to read the posts of this group because they sometimes put me into a bad mood for days! However, that is my fault. I now try to read the posts and `let go' of the posts I don't agree with. Sometimes, I simply don't respond. This is progess. Phil: happened across another sutta this morning that really drives home the point I was making about the unskillfulness of trying to block out all bad thoughts. James: I didn't write anything about trying to "block out all bad thoughts". This is one of the things that irritate me about a group discussion format: being asked to defend positions I didn't make. It is really a waste of energy to try to sort out the tangle that arises in other's minds. To keep this simple: You misinterpreted what I wrote about Right Resolve for teenagers. Maybe that was my fault because I tried to keep it simple for a simple audience; I didn't go into all of the details. You know the details; you have examined this subject in detail, so please drop it already! Grrrrrrr… ;-)) (just kidding). Phil: Also, when I asked for Abhidhamma related material that point at control, I wasn't doing it in a he-will-not-be-able-to-answer-and- I-will-be-proven-right way. I am sincerely interested, so if you know of any please do pass them along. James: Phil, in your other post in this tread you wrote that I told you that the Abhidhamma has some evidence of control, and you asked me to provide that evidence (to paraphrase). Again, I am being asked to defend a position I didn't make. It doesn't even make sense that I would say such a thing: I know practically nothing about the Abhidhamma! Part of me doesn't want to know (for fear of polluting my mind with weird concepts) and part of me doesn't really care (it is just about the most boring subject in the world! ;-) As well as being absolutely useless to me). But, even with that said, let's look at this question of yours. Your question implies that you don't believe in `control', and yet you do believe in Rob M's phrase of `training the puppy' (as you state in another post). Phil, there is no difference between these two things! The difference is only a semantic one. What is the difference between controlling a puppy and training a puppy? At least by my use of the word, there isn't any difference. However, you will find if you ask Nina that she doesn't even believe `training' is possible. Her position is that one should just read and study the texts, wait for panna (wisdom) to arise naturally from such an activity, and this will slowly rid the mind of defilements (over a period of several thousand lifetimes). It is a very `hands off approach' ;-). And this is what I was speaking against. The Buddha didn't teach that! Now, back the Abhidhamma, does the Abhidhamma have any evidence of control or training the mind? As far as I know, I don't think so. But why should it? To use an analogy, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual, but instead of being a car it is supposed to be a manual for reality. When one reads a car manual, that lists and describes all the parts of the car in detail, does one really get the idea or `feel' for a real car? Does one even know what a real car is capable of doing? I don't think so. Actually, one might even get the idea that a `car' doesn't really exist, only its parts exist. But if that is true, do the parts even exist? What are the parts made up of? So, we come back to what the Buddha taught: the elements of earth, air, fire, water, consciousness, and space. That is all you need to know. To me, the Abhidhamma is a colossal waste of time, but some people seem to like it so I guess `that is all I got to say about that' ;-). Metta, James 38790 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:57pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 58 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (e) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** The proximate cause of saññå is an object, in whatever way that appears. The object can be a paramattha dhamma, i.e. nåma or rúpa, or a concept (paññatti). Whatever object citta cognizes, saññå recognizes and marks it. Saññå performs its function through each of the six doors. There is saññå at this moment. When there is seeing there is saññå and it recognizes and marks visible object. When there is hearing there is saññå which recognizes and marks sound. There is saññå when there is smelling, tasting, touching or when there is the experience of objects through the mind-door. Cittas experience objects through the six doors and the saññå which accompanies citta experiences the object through the same doorway and performs its function accordingly. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38791 From: plnao Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Hi James, and all >Okay, I will try to give you a response since you seem to really >want it. Looks like our paths crossed there. Thanks again for your friendly patience. James: Phil, in your other post in this tread you wrote that I told you that the Abhidhamma has some evidence of control, and you asked me to provide that evidence (to paraphrase). Again, I am being asked to defend a position I didn't make. It doesn't even make sense that I would say such a thing: I know practically nothing about the Abhidhamma! Part of me doesn't want to know (for fear of polluting my mind with weird concepts) and part of me doesn't really care (it is just about the most boring subject in the world! ;-) As well as being absolutely useless to me). Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- but soon after I joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said that you thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I should be sure to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all were as non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by an Asian academic, whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e-mail, so I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I am curious what it was - I can't remember. If there is anyone else who has reason to believe that other approaches to Abhidhamma propose more control than K Sujin's, please send info along to me, on or off list. I have yet to find anything in CMA that doesn't synch with K Sujin. Some of TBBS (I wanted to be the first to use that acronym!) is a bit different, but Rob M has already talked about those points. As for the appeal of Abhidhamma, James. I predict you will have a Saul moment. You will suddenly be struck by the penetrative beauty of Abhidhamma, change your name from James to Cetasikames and lead the global revival of Abhidhamma, saving it from seeming oblivion! And I will follow you then! I hope you will not be having any DSG induced unhappiness, not because of me at least. I won't pester you anymore - until I do! Metta, Phil 38792 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views and the Meditator Hi KK, A belated welcome to DSG. Thank you for sharing your views and introducing yourself here with many interesting details. I’d like to take up just one point from your post to Howard: --- "L.A. Uberstrasse" wrote: > Of course I balked at the idea of not reading some of the vast amounts > of literature written about Buddhism ( including the commentaries) to > begin with. But I now understand why not reading is of importance if > wanting to repeat the experiment the Buddha performed as closely as > possible. In the time of the Buddha, there was not writing and so no > one of the folowers was going home and pouring over books. They were > instead listening each evening to a subject of Dhamma, hearing it > several times in repetition, and then going and meditating in the forest > and "directly seeing" for themselves what the Buddha observed and had > taught in this discourse or that, coming to there own direct > conclusions. …. S: Of course, what you say is very true and if were listening each evening to a discourse told by the Buddha, appropriate for our limited wisdom and able to ‘directly see’ as a result, then definitely there would be no need to open any book, let alone discuss them as we do here. But of course, we don’t have the opportunity to directly listen to the Buddha (and no need to discuss the Buddha’s ‘experiment’), and so we’re left with the Dhamma which he urged us to follow in his place. How we ‘study’ this Dhamma, will depend on circumstances and inclinations, but without doubt, a careful considering of the words will be important. Even during the Buddha’s lifetime, he encouraged followers to listen to the extra details and elaborations given by his key disciples. What they spoke was in accordance with his words and therefore the Dhamma-Vinaya too. …. > The Buddha's idea of teaching in this way was new at the time too. > Direct experience, Direct Knowledge, Direct Wisdom, keeping only what > was truly useful to the sutdent, that which led to happiness and calm in > the direction of the path. The very idea of advice to not accept what a > teacher said because he said it seemed preposterous at the time I > imagine. The Buddha was stepping away from the idea that the teacher was > like a God. You don't argue with a God. You just do it and accept it, > even if it doesn't feel good and isn't consistent or contradicts other > things the teacher said etc. …. S: If we don’t read or consider any of those ‘vast amounts of literature….(inc. the commentaries)’, how will we know whether our perceived ‘Direct experience…….Direct Wisdom’ has anything to do with what was taught by the Buddha? After all, even God’s students think they have ‘Direct’ this and that. When you talk about leading to happiness, what do you mean by ‘happiness’? …. > So, anyway, Howard, thinking can keep us from flowing forward and > discovering the deeper levels. If we stop to think too much, we can get > stuck. Contemplation of what was seen after a session is fine but a > great deal of comparison with this and that commentary and other > conclusions of other teachers along the way on what was seen leads us > into time spent outside our own Direct knowledge and proceeding further. > As adults it is very hard to accpet this. Younger students don't seem to > have any problem with it. …. S: Can there be any awareness or understanding of thinking as just another conditioned dhamma? Can any self really start or stop thinking? Can there only be ‘Direct knowledge’ when there is no thinking? Can there be ‘Direct knowledge’ now, or must we wait for another time when we’re not discussing Dhamma? Yes, it’s hard for me to accept rules and limitations about how and when ‘Direct knowledge’ can arise or to accept there can be any ‘Direct knowledge’ when there isn’t any understanding of the various dhammas being experienced at this very moment. Younger students may not have this kind of a problem, but is that any indication of any more ‘Direct knowledge’? Might it just be ignorance instead? Look forward to more discussions. I know you said you were traveling, so never a need to rush to respond…..I’m usually slow too;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 38793 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Howard, Can't argue with you when you're right... :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Larry and Nina) - > > In a message dated 11/24/04 11:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > > > I would like to butt in here... > > > > > ============================ > I like the Citta vs citta distinction very much, but I will never > remember which is which!! ;-)) > One point I'd like to address in your post: You pointed out that > various cetasikas are "the same" in all mindstates. I don't think that is "quite" > true, as there are variations of various sorts, including variation of > strength, and other nuances. Each so called cetasika is, itself, actually a khandha of > sorts - an aggregate of similar phenomena. Also, more specifically, sa~n~na > doesn't function the same in all mindstates, I believe. Sometimes it is a > marking operation, but other times it is a memory-comparison operation making use > of markings left by prior Sa~n~na's. Also, the role of cetana will be different in a javana citta versus a non-javana citta. Metta, Rob M :-) 38794 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" [KenO] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/25/04 12:29:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > k: By the way, what is Ps? I do not know. I just quoting the above > as I seen it in Visud which I think should be correct. > > =========================== The Patisambhidamagga (in the Khudakka Nikaya), I presume. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38795 From: Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/25/04 2:41:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Can't argue with you when you're right... :-) > ======================= Gee, you really shouldn't shortchange yourself, Rob. My being right doesn't stop *other* folks from arguing with me!! (Just kidding, everyone! As Mae West said: I can resist anything except temptation!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38796 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:30am Subject: Talk between Bhante & Sarah Dear Bhante Vimalaramsi , (Phil briefly at the end of the post), I apologise for the delay in responding to you.(I've also changed the subject heading as requested by Htoo from 'Sarah: "One Path"'.) --- Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > > Dhamma Greetings Sarah, > > I think we are basically saying the same things, with a few minor > changes. Again my approach is not through words but direct experience so > the language is a little different. When I first came onto this site I > asked the question about what Pan~n~a meant and I see that you used the > word understanding. Is this what Pa~n~na means to you? This is just a > question to help me clarify what you are talking about not a leading > question to pounce on. …. S: Thank you for this. Sukin wrote more helpful details. There are many kinds and levels of pa~n~naa, but usually in context, I’m referring to the panna which must accompany sati (awareness) in the development of satipatthana, the ‘one way ‘ you referred to which is the development of the path leading to the eradication of all defilements. In the Satipatthana Sutta we also read about ‘sati sampaja~n~na’. Sampaja~n~na is a synonym for this kind of panna. Samma ditthi is another. Vipassana another still. Sati sampajanna is developed by being aware and understanding the various realities or paramattha dhammas as enumerated in all the suttas and included in the four foundations of mindfulness. The confusion usually comes in because these realities are not understood even on a conceptual level. So we need to consider more what they are. The extract you typed out for Hugo referred to the seeing consciousness, the visible objects, the contact, feelings, thinking and so on, I believe. These are all realities which can be known by sati and panna now, if there has been the right considering and understanding developed. ….. > I think the main differences between what you are saying and what I am > saying is in how craving arises and manifests. You are talking about > just > being "mindful" of it and I am talking about letting it go and relaxing. …. Perhaps we can agree that it is panna which ‘lets go’ by understanding the dhamma for what it is at that moment. As soon as there is any idea of trying to let it go, it’s sure to be ‘Self’ behind it again. And if there’s any wishing to have less craving or less tension and so on, again it indicates further attachment to self being a certain way with less of this and that and more sati and panna. Attachment to self is so very strongly rooted, I find. It’s ready to sneak in at every opportunity and so often it’s not just attachment but also a view of self being able to do this or that or existing with tension and craving too. No understanding of dhammas as mere elements, devoid of self, at such times. Like Htoo mentioned, tightness or tension of the body is merely vayo (air) element or different elements appearing. Mental tension is merely a combination of various mental elements such as aversion and unpleasant feeling. All these elements are conditioned, impermanent and not self at all. None of them are of any importance – just elements to be known for what they are. ….. > There is a subtle difference there. I think the just being aware of it > and letting it be is not quite enough. If one doesn't let it go, the > rest > of the process of Dependent Origination will carry on. …. S: There is no self to let it be or not let it be, to let it go or not let it go. If an element or reality has arisen by conditions, it’s arisen anyway. Either there is or there isn’t any awareness or understanding of it at the moment when it’s experienced. If one has an idea of ‘letting it go’, it’s just thinking with an idea of self that can ‘let go’ at that moment. Having any ideas of self or control or of ‘letting go’ will merely accumulate more avijja and make it impossible to ever understand the intricacies of conditioned dhammas as elaborated in D.O. That’s why I suggested we start by looking at avijja. D.O. will be the nature of things whether or not there is any understanding developed or not. …. >For example, in > the Satipatthana Sutta it says about the hindrances - "Here there being > sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire > in > me' or there being no sensual desire in him, he understands, 'There is > no > sensual desire in me'. > > Lets stop here for a brief moment. This is being mindful to the fact > that > sensual desire is present or not. And this seems to be what you are > talking about when you say just be mindful of this. But there is a much > deeper insight to be seen when one goes on with this description it > says: > > "He also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen > sensual desire, and how there comes to be the abandoning of the arisen > sensual desire, and how there comes to be the future non-arising of > abandoned sensual desire". > > In practical terms I think that just being mindful of the arisen sensual > desire is not enough. And this seems to say the same thing. ….. S: Before there can be any understanding of the arising and passing away of dhammas, there has to be a clear understanding of these dhammas. We may think we know when there is sensual desire, but do we? Is there any understanding of sensual desire right now when we look at visible object appearing as we write/read or hear a sound? Is there an attempt to be aware of it as we speak? Then it’s attachment again, attachment to being aware of sensual desire. When understanding develops of realities appearing now, we begin to understand how it’s always been this way and will continue to be this way in the future. Merely conditioned dhammas arising and passing away. No self to stop, control or put anything away, let alone to interrupt the laws of D.O. I think I’ve talked too much already. I appreciated all your explanations very much and apologise for having to snip the rest of your post and just pick out a few comments for response. I hope this clarifies a little what I mean when I refer to the development of understanding. I look forward to hearing from you, Bhante. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked a comment you made to Phil very much with regard to the war. You wrote: ‘Are you sure that this “war” is real? What is the ultimate reality of this?’ I also appreciated the questions which followed in which you paraphrased the Buddha as asking whether the cultivation of such thoughts and feelings leads to happiness or affliction and so on. The comments were helpful. What is the purpose of being embroiled in such proliferations we might ask? We take these conceptual worlds for being real, forgetting that when we read a paper or hear the news that it’s only visible object or sound appearing……and then, lots and lots of paying attention to signs and details ….When there is less wrong view about the various realities which really make up our 'worlds', there will naturally be less inclination to speculate in this way - 'naturally' without any self needing to do anything. ============= 38797 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:54am Subject: [dsg] Contact HI Howard and DN Expositor pg 144, <> Ken O 38798 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, Another great thread which I’m slow to respond to…Apologies. --- antony272b2 wrote: > I wrote: > > >My only > > > doubt is that the translation from Burmese might be wrong. The > critical > > > Pali > > > phrase is "attana piyataram" - translated here as "a person who > > > *deserves* > > > more love and affection than one's own Self....... (cannot be > found) … > S: How about 'a person who is dearer than oneself.....(cannot be > found)? > > A: Is this your translation of the Pali? …. S: It was a vague recollection of the Udana verse (a favourite of mine for a long time) and commentary only;-) Piya is usually translated as ‘dear’. Let me do a little better here – the phrase is used in context here: ‘n'ev'ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci `.....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any Place **** In context: After King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was No one dearer than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5- 1, `Dear' (Masefield trans): "Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain That dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately To others - therefore one desiring self should not harm another." The commentary adds: ".....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n'ev'ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci): whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.Thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m): thus is the self alone dear separately, severally, to this and that being, by way of the non-discovery of anyone dearer than the self. "Therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaama): since each being holds the self dear in that way, isone desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonise with the hand....and so on, another being, upwards from and including even a mere ant or (other) samll insect. for when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one's (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma." ***** > Here is the original discussion on Buddhaviharas: > > According to the Buddha, 'You can search throughout the entire > > universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and > affection > > than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found > anywhere. > > You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve > your > > love and affection.' > > > ~ Sharon Salzberg, "Loving-Kindness: the Revolutionary Art of > > Happiness." > ......... > A: I thought that Sharon Salzberg, as a lay teacher, had got carried > away and unintentionally misrepresented the Buddha and that her quote > was the one that is all over the InterNet (never with the reference > to the Pali Canon, just with the signature "-Buddha"). …. S: I believe it’s quite wrong. …. >This annoyed > me greatly and I didn't have access to her to point out her fault. > Then I was very surprised to read the translation of Mahasi Sayadaw > as also using the word "deserve". Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching is always > very sober, so much so that I actually find it entertaining. …. S: Like S.S. I also followed the MS approach initially. Btw, you particularly liked the MS lecture which Dighanakha posted (#37871). I liked parts of it only. I was going to pick up on it with him, but he’s gone quiet;-(. I’d be happy to discuss some of the areas I’m not keen on with you if you like. …. > Patrick Kearney, an Australian teacher in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition (he didn't like it once when I pointed out another quote by > Mahasi that contradicted him (that Paticcasamuppada applies to three > lifetimes)). He wrote: > > "I cannot trace any such passage in the Buddha's teachings, but the > above may be a reference to the following verse, which occurs in both > Kosala Samyutta 8 and Udana 47: > > "Covering every direction with the mind, One finds no-one one loves > more than oneself. In the same way, others love their own self - > Therefore one who loves himself does not harm another." …. S: This is correct as I read it. I’ll leave his other comments, but raise them again if you’d like to discuss them further. …. A: I still wish that I deserved metta - that God loves me etc. ….. S: I asked Chris why she wanted it to be possible to have metta towards oneself. Of course, the answer is attachment to oneself. Self is so very, very dear that we’d like everyone including Self and God to love us!! We don’t realize that it’s this self-love and illusion which causes all the problems in life. Thankyou for quoting from the Sankha Sutta too. …. > "That disciple of the noble ones, headman -- thus devoid of > covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful -- > keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness > imbued with good will....compassion....appreciation....equanimity, > likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. …. …. S:’ thus devoid of covetousness…’, i.e no clinging to self at moments of metta etc. I hope this elaborates on my earlier comments. Please keep discussing this area as it's an important one. If one thinks one should develop metta to oneself, one will just develop more and more attachment and it will bring more and more problems. Metta, Sarah ========= 38799 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta for oneself translation question Dear Antony, The extra point;-) --- antony272b2 wrote: > Using logic (which isn't always good Dhamma), as the Buddha said > that "one who loves himself does not harm another", whether or not > one *deserves* love and affection for oneself, does it follow that > one who *doesn't* love himself *is* harming others? .... No. It means that if we consider how we like to hear pleasant words, have pleasant experiences of all kinds and so on, so do others. Less attachment to self will lead to more, not less, consideration of others' needs and wishes. It's just an example -- like saying by understanding how important it is to develop awareness, so it is for others with whom one shares the teachings. The same universal truths about self-attachment, wishing for pleasant experiences, ignorance and so on, apply to all. Metta, Sarah ======== 38800 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:36am Subject: Noble Eightfold Path for Teens Hi All (especially Antony), I note that Antony has uploaded "Noble Eightfold Path for Teens" to his discussion group on the Eightfold Path: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/ I will therefore delete it from DSG files section. If you would like me to email you a copy, please drop me a note at rob.moult @ jci.com (without the spaces around the @). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Thanks, Antony! 38801 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi KenO (&Dan), --- Ken O wrote: > So are you saying there is conceptual right view or are you saying > that conceptual right view is the same as mundane right view. .... S: There is lokuttara (supramundane) right view and lokiya (mundane) right view. Lokiya(mundane) right view can either refer to moments of satipatthana (five or sixfold path path moments)as referred to in suttas such as the Samma Ditthi Sutta as Dan rightly pointed out or can refer to moments of lokiya right view (i.e panna) which have concepts about realities as objects, or right view accompanying moments of samatha development, for example, which always have concepts as object. As I mentioned, samma ditthi refers to panna cetasika and there are degrees and kinds of panna. From Nyantiloka's dict under 'lokiya': "LOKIYA: 'mundane', ae all those states of consciousness and mental factors - arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One - which are not associated with the supermundane (lokuttara..) paths and fruitions......" **** I told > Dan D, there is no conceptual right view, there is only mundane right > view and supramundane right view. Buddha never coined conceptual > right view neither does the Abhidhamma text I have read. Reading, > listening and studying about dhamma is not conceptual right view, it > is mundane right view. .... S: How do you translate pariyatti in a way that differentiates it from moments of right view in the development of satipatthana? Mundane right view is a broad label;-). There was something Dan and I agreed on and which he asked me to discuss with you - maybe the Samma Ditthi sutta. Not sure, but it was certainly a cop out on his part (in spite of the smooth tongue;-)). Metta, Sarah p.s Actually, the recent thread may not have sounded like it, but Dan and I agree on most the crucial points and it's a joy to discuss the Dhamma with a friend like either of you when we are happy to read passages from any of the same texts. No need to tie one harm behind my back when I write;-). Ken O, I loved your quotes and comments to others on anatta too. ======= 38802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:51am Subject: 6 poems (really 9) Dear Group, Perhaps you may enjoy these poems written when the poet was a novice Buddhist nun: http://tinyurl.com/5q5uk The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada Bhikkhuni and is known as Charlotte Sudhamma Bhikkhuni. http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2003a/radiance.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38803 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: 6 poems (really 9) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > Perhaps you may enjoy these poems written when the poet was a novice > Buddhist nun: > http://tinyurl.com/5q5uk > > The Lady now wears the gold robes of a fully ordained Theravada > Bhikkhuni and is known as Charlotte Sudhamma Bhikkhuni. > http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2003a/radiance.htm Very moving... both the poems and the letter. Thank you very much for sharing this. Metta, Rob M :-) 38804 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Ken O Hi Larry L: I think you are mistranslating dukkha. It is better to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory rather than suffering. From one point of view everything is unsatisfactory but the only thing that is suffering is suffering itself. Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 <<446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering”>> Digha Nikaya 33 walshe p484 <<"Three kinds of suffering: as pain, as inherent in formations, as due to change.">> MN141 - a snapshot of the sutta on suffering <<"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. >> L: Imo, that characteristic can only be dosa (aversion) consciousness In SN, 12 Nidanaasamyutta, 32(2) The Kalara ".....These three feelings, friends, are impermanent, whatever is impermanent is suffering. L: Concept is error itself and, as such, is the root of all unsatisfactoriness. In SN, 12 Nidanaasamyutta, 10 (10), Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage. << .....while I was still a bodhisatta,....When now will an escape be discern from this suffering [headed by] aging and death?" . . ......Then bikkhus, through careful attention. there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: When there is birth, aging and death comes to be, aging and death has births as its condition . . . "thus with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [comes to be]; with volitional formation as condition, consciouness....Such is the origin of the mass of suffering">> <> Ken O 38805 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). Ken O 38806 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:18am Subject: the anger eater Hi all Thanks for the poems, Christine. I found this encouraging tale related to my recent concerns at the same web site. http://www.hundredmountain.com/Pages/dharmatalk_pages/fall01_buddhatales.html I would like to thank you all in passing for your direct and indirect support as I deal with my demon. I've made it through this day without checking the news. For all the subtleties of Dhamma that is involved, just plain not-watching-the-news for awhile is probably all I need to do, in the short run. I will reply to the posts by Rob K, Nina/Lodewijk and Bhante V in the days to come. Doing so will help condition my continued defeat/de-feeding of that demon. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 38807 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi KenO, --- Ken O wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep > to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like > conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). > .... Actually it's not a phrase I use, but I don't have a problem with it in the right context....(The Samma Ditthi Sutta is not the right context). Let's stick to pariyatti then or suta maya panna or cinta maya panna....But that doesn't mean we have to ban all translations;-). How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? Metta, Sarah ======= 38808 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi James, and all > Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- but soon > after I > joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said that you > thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I should be > sure > to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all were as > non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by an Asian > academic, > whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e- mail, so > I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I am curious > what it > was - I can't remember. Friend Phil, Okay, now I know what you are referring to. I don't recall stating anything about there being a `control' approach to the Abhidhamma, but I did give you some links to different articles that present a different approach to the Abhidhamma (one more in keeping with the Buddha's teaching, in my opinion). Here are those links again: http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm The author is Y. Karunadasa and I approve of his approach to Abhidhamma because he writes, in part, "But the dhamma theory was intended from the start to be more than a mere hypothetical scheme. It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation and insight." The Abhidhamma as a guide for meditative experience I can accept; the Abhidhamma as a substitute for meditation, I cannot accept. Metta, James 38809 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) Thanks James, I'll read them with great interest. (And more understanding thank I could have first time around.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "buddhatrue" To: Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 7:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Evil thoughts of Evil James ;-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > > Hi James, and all > > Phil: I guess you don't remember - there's no reason you should- > but soon > > after I > > joined DSG I made a statement that Nina corrected, and you said > that you > > thought it was a fair statement that I had made. You said that I > should be > > sure > > to look into different approaches to Abhidhamma, because not all > were as > > non-control as found here. And you gave me a link to an article by > an Asian > > academic, > > whom you had written to to ask about studying with. I'm only on e- > mail, so > > I can't go and find it in the archives, but it is there. So now I > am curious > > what it > > was - I can't remember. > > > Friend Phil, > > Okay, now I know what you are referring to. I don't recall stating > anything about there being a `control' approach to the Abhidhamma, > but I did give you some links to different articles that present a > different approach to the Abhidhamma (one more in keeping with the > Buddha's teaching, in my opinion). Here are those links again: > > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > > The author is Y. Karunadasa and I approve of his approach to > Abhidhamma because he writes, in part, "But the dhamma theory was > intended from the start to be more than a mere hypothetical scheme. > It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in > meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation > and insight." > > The Abhidhamma as a guide for meditative experience I can accept; > the Abhidhamma as a substitute for meditation, I cannot accept. > > Metta, James > 38810 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? Mundane right view :) Ken O 38811 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? > > Mundane right view :) .... How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)? :) Metta, Sarah ======= 38812 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:34am Subject: Re: Pali request Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the > "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" > that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it > tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time > I brush my teeth. > > Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. > ===== I am no Pali expert, but here it is without the accents (I think): netam mama nesohamasmi na meso attati' eva metam yathabutam sammappannaya datthabbam Metta, Rob M :-) 38813 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Ken (and DN) - In a message dated 11/25/04 4:03:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > HI Howard and DN > > Expositor pg 144, > < through its own cause, known as coinciding of three (basis, object and > consciouness). This is shown here and there by the sutta phrase > 'Contact is the collision of three'. And in this phrase the meaning is > that it is contact because of the collision of the three, but is > should not be understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus > because it is declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, > therefore its manifestation is called coinciding. But if > manifestation be taken in the sense of effect, contact has feeling as > effect. That is, contact produces feeling, causes it to rise. Just > as it is heat in heated lae, and not the coals, or external cause, > which produces softness, so albeit there is another cause, viz the > mental object and the basis, it is the consciousness in which feeling > inheres which produces it, and not that [external] cause.>> > > Ken O > > =============================== This doesn't surprise me. The Expositor is commentary to the Dhammasangani, the 1st book of Abhidhamma, and it presents the Abhidhammic view. My point was and remains that the Abhidhammic view of contact as being something other than the coming of the three is a view that does not appear in the suttas. In the suttas, contact is specifically defined as the coming together of the three. Actually, I should be careful in talking of "the Abhidhammic view of contact". It is this commentary that gives a view of the distinctness of contact from the confluence or coinciding. I am *assuming* that is based on the Dhammasangani also viewing the cetasika of contact as distinct from the event of coincidence. But perhaps that is not so, and the distinction is made only in the commentary. (It's not convenient for me to get hold of my copy of the Dhms at the moment for a search.) In any case, the suttas give phassa as the meeting of three. Specifically, in MN 148, there is the following, where I change the language to include all 6 sense bases in a group of statements six-fold shorter: << 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the [sense organ & sense object] there arises consciousness at [that sense organ]. The meeting of the three is contact. ... >> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38814 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:01am Subject: The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi, all - I've been assuming that the Expositor is commentary on the Dhammasangani. Am I in error? Is it the Dispeller of Delusion that is commentary to the Dhammasangani instead? If so, please remind what the Expositor is commentary to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38815 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 6:03:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, all - I've been assuming that the Expositor is commentary on the Dhammasangani. Am I in error? Is it the Dispeller of Delusion that is commentary to the Dhammasangani instead? If so, please remind what the Expositor is commentary to. With metta, Howard Hi Howard The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. TG 38816 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Howard I've gone through this description of contact a couple of times and I don't see the problem of it not corresponding to the Suttas. Its trying to be very technical in a somewhat hard to follow way, but as far as I can tell it speaks to the -- sense object, sense base, and consciousness -- needing to make contact, converge, coincide, etc. in order for feeling to arise. It goes on to detail that feeling is part of what consciousness is. As I understand it, it is trying to say that feeling is not felt by a sense object or even a sense base, but that feeling is "felt as consciousness": indicating a direct relationship between 'consciousness and feeling.' It also indicates that it is not as direct a relationship between 'sense object and feeling' or 'sense base and feeling.' In other words...a sense object such as a desk (or firmness) does not "itself" feel. Nor does the body "itself" feel. But rather it is feeling that does the feeling as part of consciousness. I think that's acceptable. Can't see anything else that might be controversial. What is it about it that seems wrong? BTW, Happy Thanksgiving! TG In a message dated 11/25/2004 5:55:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: HI Howard and DN > > Expositor pg 144, > < through its own cause, known as coinciding of three (basis, object and > consciouness). This is shown here and there by the sutta phrase > 'Contact is the collision of three'. And in this phrase the meaning is > that it is contact because of the collision of the three, but is > should not be understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus > because it is declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, > therefore its manifestation is called coinciding. But if > manifestation be taken in the sense of effect, contact has feeling as > effect. That is, contact produces feeling, causes it to rise. Just > as it is heat in heated lae, and not the coals, or external cause, > which produces softness, so albeit there is another cause, viz the > mental object and the basis, it is the consciousness in which feeling > inheres which produces it, and not that [external] cause.>> > > Ken O > > =============================== This doesn't surprise me. The Expositor is commentary to the Dhammasangani, the 1st book of Abhidhamma, and it presents the Abhidhammic view. My point was and remains that the Abhidhammic view of contact as being something other than the coming of the three is a view that does not appear in the suttas. In the suttas, contact is specifically defined as the coming together of the three. Actually, I should be careful in talking of "the Abhidhammic view of contact". It is this commentary that gives a view of the distinctness of contact from the confluence or coinciding. I am *assuming* that is based on the Dhammasangani also viewing the cetasika of contact as distinct from the event of coincidence. But perhaps that is not so, and the distinction is made only in the commentary. (It's not convenient for me to get hold of my copy of the Dhms at the moment for a search.) In any case, the suttas give phassa as the meeting of three. Specifically, in MN 148, there is the following, where I change the language to include all 6 sense bases in a group of statements six-fold shorter: << 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the [sense organ & sense object] there arises consciousness at [that sense organ]. The meeting of the three is contact. ... >> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). With metta, Howard 38817 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: is lokuttara citta dukkha? Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Could you tell me which part in the abhidhammatthasangaha as I cannot > locate it. According to CMA on the Compendium of Categories Guide > to 35, .... The four mental aggregates of Supramundane plane are not > aggregate of clinging because they entirely transcend the range of > clinging; that is, they cannot become objects of greed or wrong view. > It did not mention they are not dukkha, it just without clinging. > > > > Ken O Hi Ken, See CMA VII,40 p.290: "Mental states associated with the paths and fruits are excluded from the four truths." Also B. Bodhi's note to VII,39 p.289: "Concisely, the noble truth of suffering comprises all PHENOMENA of the three MUNDANE planes of existence except craving." [emphasis mine] Larry 38818 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 10:59:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. > > The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > > TG > ==================== Thanks. Glad I wasn't off base about The Expositor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38819 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Rob, Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I missed it. The point I was trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. The implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual response informs or cues javana cittas. One might even say concept is the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. Nina seems to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Larry (and Howard / Nina), > > I would like to butt in here... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 11/24/04 2:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... > > writes: > > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > > > > > What I had in mind by saying the functioning of mind-door > > > consciousnesses depends purely on the cetasikas is that the > > > functioning of lobha mula citta (desire root consciousness), for > > > example, depends mostly on lobha cetasika and cetana cetasika > (desire > > > and intention) and there is nothing in the consciousness without > its > > > cetasikas that adds anything to its specific function. > > ===== > > We might be mixing up terms here. Can I suggest that we agree on: > - Citta (with a "C"): is the paramattha dhamma aka vinnana > - citta (with a "c")" is a mental state, a collection of Citta + > cetasikas > > The function of Citta is always the same (in all cittas). The > function of Citta is always to be the forerunner of cetasikas; to > preside over and be accompanied by the cetasikas (see CMA p29). > > Not only does Citta always have the same function, each of the > cetasiksas within the citta always has the same function. For > example, the cetasika lobha always has the function of "sticking". > > If within a citta, the Citta and all the cetasikas have fixed > functions, how could there be any variation? Eye-consciousness citta > and ear-consciousness citta both have Citta and the exact same set > of cetasikas. They are different because they have a different > object and a different base. In other words, object and base play a > role in making one citta different from another. > > Accumulations play an extremely important role in making one citta > different from another. The greed-rooted javana citta has a set of > cetasikas each with their own function. The relative STRENGTH of the > various cetasikas will be determined by accumulations. This is why > we can have degrees of attachment and degrees of kamma. > > You are correct to say that the function of javana cittas will > always be the same (generate kamma for non-Arahants). However, the > type of kamma and the strength of kamma generated will vary all over > the map based on accumulations and the object involved. > > Trying to define the function of the citta in the citta process > solely by considering the function of the Citta and cetasikas is too > limiting. For example, the Five-Sense-Door Adverting Consciousness, > the Receiving Consciousness and the Investigating Consciousness with > Indifferent Feeling all have exactly the same set of cetasikas, yet > they each perform different functions in the citta process. > > The function of a citta in the citta process is dictated by citta- > niyama (law of citta; a commentarial term not described in any > detail in the commentaries). The Citta and cetasikas involved in the > citta support the citta in the performing of this function by each > performing their own specific function. > > ===== > > > Sense door > > > consciousnesses such as eye-consciousness are a little > different, of > > > course. This is in support of my contention that tadarammana and > > > votthapana/manodvaraavajjana (registration and determining/mind- > door > > > adverting) function primarily by means of sanna cetasika > > > (perception). Votthapana operates in a sense-door process but > that > > > doesn't affect my argument. Determining and mind-door adverting > are > > > the same consciousness but arise in sense-door and mind-door > > > processes, respectively. > > ===== > > The cetasika sanna plays the same role in all cittas. In some > cittas, the cetasika sanna may play a more important role in > supporting the function of the citta as defined by citta-niyama. > > The tadarammana citta arises naturally (according to citta-niyama) > because the javana cittas are finished yet the object still > persists. The same past kamma which caused the arising of the > earlier cittas in the process now pushes the tadarammana citta into > existence. The nature of the tadarammana citta (pleasant or > indifferent feeling, strength of various cetasikas) will be > influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support > condition. > > The votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta comes to a conclusion > regarding an object. The investigating function, where sanna and > vicara would play an important role, was done by the santirana > citta. You may find it interesting to note that within the citta > process, votthapana is the first arising of energy (viriya). Perhaps > you may want to characterize votthapana as being more energetic than > previous cittas in the citta process? > > The falling away of the votthapana/manodvaraavajjana citta is one of > the conditions for the arising of the set of javana cittas. The type > of javana cittas which arise depends on accumulations. > > Hope that this helps :-) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38820 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:51am Subject: Re: Pali request Dear Friends, I am sorry if I say unacceptable word here. But I think it is 'yathabhutam.' With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Could someone kindly provide me with the Pali for the > > "this is not mine, this is not my self, this is not what I am" > > that appears in the anatta sutta? I would like to have it > > tatooed on my forehead, backwards, so I can see it every time > > I brush my teeth. > > > > Seriously, it is a very rich phrase. > > > ===== > > I am no Pali expert, but here it is without the accents (I think): > > netam mama nesohamasmi na meso attati' eva metam yathabutam > sammappannaya datthabbam > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 38821 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 135 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 89 cittas. Or there are 121 cittas. They are realities. Citta is one reality and cetasikas are other realities. So 121 cittas are different combination of reality citta with realities cetasikas. Among 121 cittas, there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. They are 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, 8 lokuttara 4th jhana cittas, and 8 lokkuttara 5th jhana cittas. 8 of lokuttara 1st jhana cittas are accompanied by 36 cetasikas in total. They are 1. 7 universal cetasikas ( phassa, vedana, cetana, sanna, ekaggata jivitindriya, manasikara ) 2. 6 pakinnaka cetasikas ( vitakka, vicara, piti, viriya, chanda, adhimokkha ) 3. 19 sobhanacitta sadharana cetasikas ( 2 forces of the king cittas ) 1. saddha 1. saddha 2. sati 2. tatramajjhattata 3. hiri 3. alobha 4. ottappa 4. adosa 5. cittapassaddhi 5. kayapassaddhi 6. cittalahuta 6. kayalahuta 7. cittamuduta 7. kayamuduta 8. cittakammannata 8. kayakammannata 9. cittapagunnata 9. kayapagunnata 10. cittujukata 10. kayujukata 4. 3 virati cetasika ( samma-kammanta, samma-vaca, samma-ajiva ) 5. 1 pannindriya cetasika ( panna ) ----------------- 36 cetasikas ( 7 + 6 + 19 + 3 + 1 = 36 ) 2 appamanna cetasika 'karuna' and 'muduta' are not the cetasikas of lokuttara cittas as lokuttara cittas always take nibbana as their object while karuna and mudita always take satta-pannatta as their object. So from 52 total cetasikas 14 akusala have to removed. 52 - 14 = 38 and 38 - 2 ( karuna and mudita ) = 36 cetasikas are cetasikas that always arise with each of 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38822 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 11:39:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > I've gone through this description of contact a couple of times and I don't > see the problem of it not corresponding to the Suttas. Its trying to be > very > technical in a somewhat hard to follow way, but as far as I can tell it > speaks > to the -- sense object, sense base, and consciousness -- needing to make > contact, converge, coincide, etc. in order for feeling to arise. > > It goes on to detail that feeling is part of what consciousness is. As I > understand it, it is trying to say that feeling is not felt by a sense > object or > even a sense base, but that feeling is "felt as consciousness": indicating a > > direct relationship between 'consciousness and feeling.' It also indicates > that it is not as direct a relationship between 'sense object and feeling' > or > 'sense base and feeling.' In other words...a sense object such as a desk > (or > firmness) does not "itself" feel. Nor does the body "itself" feel. But > rather > it is feeling that does the feeling as part of consciousness. I think > that's > acceptable. Can't see anything else that might be controversial. > > What is it about it that seems wrong? BTW, Happy Thanksgiving! > > TG > ====================== Happy Thanksgiving to you too! :-) I don't quite get what you are saying here. What I've been talking about is not the matter of feeling arising in dependence on contact, but on what exactly contact is. That "problem" as I see it is that Abhidhamma says that contact is a cetasika that *manifests* as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and consciousness. But the suttas say that contact *is* the coming together, itself. These are not the same. Also, now that you raise the matter, there seems to be a difference between Abhidhamma and sutta on the matter of vedana as well. In Abhidhamma, any specific vedana is inherent in the object of a mindstate, but in the suttas, specifically in dependent origination, vedana arises in dependence on contact. So the suttas are seeing vedana as depending on contact, not just sense-door object. This also is different. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38823 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/25/2004 10:31:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Happy Thanksgiving to you too! :-) I don't quite get what you are saying here. What I've been talking about is not the matter of feeling arising in dependence on contact, but on what exactly contact is. That "problem" as I see it is that Abhidhamma says that contact is a cetasika that *manifests* as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and consciousness. But the suttas say that contact *is* the coming together, itself. These are not the same. Also, now that you raise the matter, there seems to be a difference between Abhidhamma and sutta on the matter of vedana as well. In Abhidhamma, any specific vedana is inherent in the object of a mindstate, but in the suttas, specifically in dependent origination, vedana arises in dependence on contact. So the suttas are seeing vedana as depending on contact, not just sense-door object. This also is different. With metta, Howard Hi Howard If in doubt, stick with the Sutta version would be my way to go. The whole goal of Abhidhamma as I see it, is to try and detail the Suttas. By trying to add more detail, Abhidhamma may get it right and it may get it wrong. I think the Abhidhamma compilers get it right most of the time; however, it may be more detail than needed and such details may distract the mind from the more important considerations of impermanence, suffering, and no-self. I'm not sure that Abhidhamma doesn't agree with the Sutta positions on the matters you bring up or that if -- in addition to agreeing with them, the also detail them in such a way that might sound contradictory if only a portion of the Abhidhamma teaching is being looked at. Maybe that's a possibility? This could be like the Sutta where the monk and lay person argue over whether the Buddha taught there are 2 kinds of feelings or 3 kinds of feelings. The Buddha said they were both right because he taught it differently to suit different occasions. He also suggested that they were foolish to argue about it because they wouldn't accept what was being properly presented by the other one. Anyway, since I don't know what I'm taking about, that's my final word on this matter. :-) TG 38824 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, op 25-11-2004 18:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:to Rob M: > The point I was > trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and > votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. The > implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual > response informs or cues javana cittas. One might even say concept is > the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. Nina seems > to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a > separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. > > Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? N: Latent tendencies are included in accumulations. The magga-citta eradicates them according to the stage of enlightenment that is reached. Sañña and concept: not so clear. The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, not both. See Rob M's post who explained these matters clearly. Nina. 38825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Dear Sarah, thinking about sammaa di.t.thi, right view, we just had today for our Pali lesson a quote from a sutta, given by John Kelly, and taken from ATI. but perhaps not the English, because here dukkha is fortunately not translated as stress. op 25-11-2004 10:44 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: There is lokuttara (supramundane) right view and lokiya (mundane) right > view. Lokiya(mundane) right view can either refer to moments of > satipatthana (five or sixfold path path moments)as referred to in suttas > such as the Samma Ditthi Sutta as Dan rightly pointed out or can refer to > moments of lokiya right view (i.e panna) which have concepts about > realities as objects, or right view accompanying moments of samatha > development, for example, which always have concepts as object. > > As I mentioned, samma ditthi refers to panna cetasika and there are > degrees and kinds of panna. N: quote: Pali - Every few days - [B215] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 11 – Further Readings Ex. 2 (Part 1 of 6) Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi? Ya.m kho, bhikkhave, dukkhe ñaa.na.m, dukkhasamudaye ñaa.na.m, dukkhanirodhe ñaa.na.m, dukkhanirodha-gaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ñaa.na.m. Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi’ti. “And what, monks, is right view? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the arising of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This, monks, is called right view. (D.N.22. Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta.m, M.N.141. Saccavibhangasutta.m 38826 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion Hi Howard and TG, op 25-11-2004 16:57 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > The Expositor is the commentary to Dhammasangani. N: Yes. > The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > TG N: Dispeller of Delusion is in Pali: Sammohavinodani. It is the Co to the Book of Analysis, or Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma. Nina. 38827 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dukkha Dear Ken O and Htoo, op 25-11-2004 11:12 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 > <<446. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of > expounding the Noble truth of suffering..... Indifferent feeling > and the remaining formations of the three planes are called > “suffering in formations because of being oppressed by rise and > fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and > fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called > “suffering of the formations, by their being included in the Truth > of Suffering. N: I think here is the answer to our discussions, are lokuttara cittas dukkha? This is clear. Ken, I like all your text quotes. We have Larry's footnote: N: the aspect of dukkha as characteristic is one aspect. The aspect of dukkha as noble Truth is another aspect. This is not a contradiction, it merely concerns under *what heading* one views phenomena. We find this also elsewhere: what is the heading? Nina 38828 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, op 25-11-2004 07:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Phil, there is no difference between these > two things! The difference is only a semantic one. What is the > difference between controlling a puppy and training a puppy? At > least by my use of the word, there isn't any difference. However, > you will find if you ask Nina that she doesn't even > believe `training' is possible. Her position is that one should > just read and study the texts, wait for panna (wisdom) to arise > naturally from such an activity, and this will slowly rid the mind > of defilements (over a period of several thousand lifetimes). It is > a very `hands off approach' ;-). And this is what I was speaking > against. The Buddha didn't teach that! N: Oh, what are you saying here;-)) You are outspoken in your words, but you have a good heart. I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! Training, in Pali sekkha. Very important, occurring in the suttas time and again. We should not be heedless. It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that seems very slight. That includes all the perfections. We do not have to think about them or call them by names, they can be developed each moment, also now. We can develop metta when writing, and I noticed before that you know that. For instance, when you were writing to Sarah. I will not defend the Abhidhamma, because there is no need to. Remember our discussions, those were times ;-)) ;-)) Seems so long ago now, doesn't it? I highly appreciate and need the suttas as well. Naresh and I are grateful for any sutta you give to us. Thanks, Nina. 38829 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 11:59:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: N: Dispeller of Delusion is in Pali: Sammohavinodani. It is the Co to the Book of Analysis, or Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma. Nina. Thanks Nina for the correction. I have the book and mis-read it inside, and should have known it was the Vibhanga, but its been a few years since I read it. TG 38830 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Expositor and the Dispeller of Delusion In a message dated 11/25/2004 9:29:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: The Dispeller of Delusion is the commentary to Sammohavinodani. > > TG > ==================== Thanks. Glad I wasn't off base about The Expositor. With metta, Howard Hi Howard You weren't off base but I was. In case you didn't catch Nina's correction...The Dispeller of Delusion is translated as Sammohavinodani but it is the commentary to the Vibhanga. Hey, 50% right isn't bad! ;-) TG 38831 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dhamma Greetings Phil, Hope you don't mind my butting in here. You said, "After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the drop of a cushion." This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it takes practice to make perfect. Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it doesn't matter. After you have practiced this for a while it does get easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do is to smile lots more. While they are doing the sitting practice and while they do their daily activities and radiate metta. Smiling is important, a university study proved that when one has a grumpy face that DOESN'T SMILE their thoughts are heavy and mostly unwholesome, and when a person smiles and has a smiling face their mind has uplifting and wholesome thoughts in it. I am talking about a real smile in one's mind, in their eyes, on their lips and smile in their heart. Keep smiling, Bhante Vimalaramsi 38832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:36pm Subject: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Hello Bhante, I am somewhat confused here. Smiling is one of the earliest forms of non-verbal communication - used by humans and closely related other species. I am at a loss to understand in what way feigning friendliness or happiness is honest communication. I know I would not trust someone whose verbal signals were a pretense, and were not truthful/real. Perhaps you can help me to understand your perspective on this? Or maybe give the link to any research? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Vimalaramsi wrote: > Dhamma Greetings Phil, > > Hope you don't mind my butting in here. > > You said, "After all, the Brahma-Viharas are "divine abodes." If we were > able to turn them on at will, it would seem to me that they wouldn't be > very refined at all. How do we know when we are generating metta whether > we are not just generating a sense of well being for ourselves? I don't > think the Buddha wanted to teach coziness and well-being available at the > drop of a cushion." > > This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take > practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is > that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a > spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the > breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta > to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed > metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all > beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for > the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating > feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, > happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for > example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm > then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It > does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it > takes practice to make perfect. > > Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it > doesn't matter. After you have practiced this for a while it does get > easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do > is to smile lots more. While they are doing the sitting practice and > while they do their daily activities and radiate metta. Smiling is > important, a university study proved that when one has a grumpy face that > DOESN'T SMILE their thoughts are heavy and mostly unwholesome, and when a > person smiles and has a smiling face their mind has uplifting and > wholesome thoughts in it. I am talking about a real smile in one's mind, > in their eyes, on their lips and smile in their heart. > > Keep smiling, > Bhante Vimalaramsi 38833 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:54pm Subject: Re: Bhante and Smiling was (Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard)) Dhamma Greetings Christine, I said that the smile must be real in one's mind, in one's eyes, on one's lips, and in one's heart. There is a difference. And when done in this way it does change one's perspective of the whole world. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38834 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Friend Nina, Nina: You are outspoken in your words, but you have a good heart. James: Thank you. I believe that you have a good heart also, a very good heart. I don't mean to attack you in anyway and it probably isn't good to specifically bring you up in the third person (wrong speech), but you related specifically to the discussion I was having. Also, being outspoken doesn't equate to having a bad heart in my opinion; just look at Lord Buddha, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. Nina: I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! James: No, of course not. You are studying the texts and writing, as I stated. But is that enough? How often do you write about renunciation, including renunciation of the five senses and their objects? What about the development of mental culture: jhana, tranquility, and supernormal insight? Nina: It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. James: I believe that the emphasis should be on renunciation (non- clinging) of dhammas, not just `understanding' them. Nina: Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that seems very slight. James: Now, this you are very correct about and I apologize for not mentioning this about your approach earlier. You do support the Vinaya and the following of precepts for monks and laypeople. But again, is that enough? Nina: That includes all the perfections. We do not have to think about them or call them by names, they can be developed each moment, also now. James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? If this was true, why aren't we all arahants by now? (Reminds me of all those ads for weight loss: Lose Weight without the Work! ;-) Nina: We can develop metta when writing, and I noticed before that you know that. For instance, when you were writing to Sarah. James: Yes, I always enjoyed my friendly banter with Sarah. I miss those good times. Nina: I will not defend the Abhidhamma, because there is no need to. Remember our discussions, those were times ;-)) ;-)) Seems so long ago now, doesn't it? James: Yep, it does seem a long time. We both have been through a lot in a very short period of time, but that's kamma ;-) Nina: I highly appreciate and need the suttas as well. Naresh and I are grateful for any sutta you give to us. James: Oh, I don't give any suttas, those are all from the Buddha. All kudos should go to him ;-). I just like to draw attention to his great work. Metta, James 38835 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Venerable Vimalaramsi/Sariputta Dhamma Greetings Ken O, When you said: "I have not reference the Visud, a quick note to this sutta. When Buddha said that breathing in, one experience the mental formation, bodily formation, is this experience talking about present human experience or experience in which only Noble Ones or those on the path to the Noble ones experience it. Buddha has described in the suttas that citta and rupas are very fast and there is no simile how to described it." Bhante*** These are the instructions in meditation that are not only for the advanced practitioner but for the beginner meditator. The way to be able to see the nama-rupa is by beginning with doing this meditation as one gets more and more familiar with this their awareness becomes more clear and eventually they will experience seeing these namas and rupas in the way the Buddha taught. Bhante previously said*** Why? Because that person who only has seen the three characteristics doesn't truly understand the impersonal process of what these links of dependent origination as seen through the understanding the 4 Noble Truths actually are, or what these insights really are referring to! k: Do you mean there is another characteristics that is described by the Buddha? Impersonal process is anatta which is part of the 3 characteristics. No I meant to say, that if one simply looks at these three characteristics by themselves, without seeing the framework of dependent origination their insights won't be as deep as they could be (even the anatta). Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38836 From: plnao Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dear Bhante Vimilaramsi Thank you always for the feedback > This is the thing about doing a meditation practice. They do take > practice before they can become second nature. The way I teach metta is > that one begins by sending metta to ourselves. then by picking a > spiritual friend and sending metta to them. (I teach what is called 'the > breaking down of the barriers, not the more general type of sending metta > to all beings (in the beginning, but after that person has developed > metta to the fourth jhana then I show them the way to sent metta to all > beings in the 6 different directions). Anyway, it is most important for > the person to bring up a feeling of metta (this is like a radiating > feeling in their heart) then make a wish for well being, peace and calm, > happiness, joy, whatever. The trick here is to feel that wish for > example, you wish for peace and calm. You must feel that peace and calm > then put that feeling in your heart and then radiate that feeling. It > does take practice and eventually it will become second nature. But it > takes practice to make perfect. Phil: This is the kind of metta meditation I did for about a year. Moving on to the neutral person, the difficult person, etc. I did experience peace of mind from generating metta for my difficult father-in-law, for Dick Cheney (two different men, BTW) etc. There was peace of mind. But I came to feel that it was not real. I wus just creating comfortt. But we will see. Having better understood realities through Abhidhamma, I may one day return to metta meditation with a better foundation in conditined realities. > Even though it may feel like you are manufacturing this at first, it > doesn't matter. Phil: If I feel like I'm manufacturing it, but it is arising due to conditions, it doesn't matter. If I *am* manufacturing it, but believe I am not, then it *does* matter a great deal. This is what I will be working out over the years to come. Yes, if we meditate on metta in the morning, it most defintely conditions the arising of what *at least* feels like metta during the day. There is no doubt about that. I have experienced it. I'm sure we all have at some point or other if we have done metta meditation. My concern - and it arose before I came to DSG and discovered Abhidhamma- is that the metta was a form of tranquilizer rather than something related to insight. But we will see. >After you have practiced this for a while it does get > easier. And one thing that I insist that all of my meditation friends do > is to smile lots more. Phil: Sometimes I found that after doing metta meditation I was smiling without knowing it! One day I started my walk to the station and a man said good-morning to me. It is very rare for strangers to greet each other in modern, urban Japan. Then I realized I was smiling, and had been sending off very approachable vibes as a result. This sort of experience means that I am still interested in metta meditation, will still be considering it as a possible right practice for me. But not for now. Now I am interested in metta that arises in daily life. Doing without intentional metta practice in the morning means that I am exposed to a lot more aversion during the day. I think that it takes courage to leave onself exposed to aversion, to see it for what it is. It takes courage to face realities. I came to feel that the way I was practicing metta was a form of hiding from realities. This is not the case for you, or for anyone else. I am just talking about my own experience. But as Howard very astutely said, there may be times when one is very challenged by a specific hindrance or deficiency of a factor (loose paraphrase) that it would be right to cultivate something a bit more intentionally. Forgive me for the loose paraphrase, Howard. I will surely be taking note of the exact words. At that time, I was going through very intense, overwhelming alienation due to be a visible minority in a fairly xenophobic society. (not racist - just fearful) The metta work I did then made it possible to deal with this without falling apart! Now I can face realities better, perhaps, because of the meditation I did then. And I may return to metta meditation someday. Thank you again for your feedback, Bhante. I do appreciate your gentle encouragement re various kinds of meditation, even while I know that they are not right for me at this time. Metta, Phil 38837 From: Bhante Vimalaramsi Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Dhamma Greetings Phil, One thing that I have found by doing the relaxing of tightnesses after every wish was it help to allow insights to arise. As I have said before, I do teach this in a different way. I know that most people think that meta just goes to the 3rd jhana, but I teach it to the 4th jhana, then as I teach further and the meditator goes deeper into the meditation they will experience compassion arising on its own and will also experience the fifth jhana (the realm of infinite space), they go deeper and experience sympathic joy and the realm of infinite consciousness, as they continue the experience equanimity and the realm of nothingness. All of these states are in agreement with sutta #111 the Anupada sutta and have insights that lead to the cessation of suffering and eventually Nibbana. So what You can do with the practice of metta is use it as a spring board to much deeper insights and experiences than what some people will tell you. Maha-Metta always Bhante Vimalaramsi 38838 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Nina: "The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, not both." Hi Nina, A spanner in the works: when there is desire or liking (lobha) for a neutral feeling hearing of sound we explain that desire by saying it is due to accumulations. Whatever accumulations are, they are not hearing or sound. Hence, two objects: accumulations and hearing/sound. Are accumulations concept or reality? Larry ps: I suppose we could say accumulations are an influence rather than an object, but at this point I like it the other way better. What are the conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between votthapana and javana? Is there a conditional relation between votthapana and accumulations? 38839 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi all, The Visuddhimagga refers to the following sutta in its description of contact. This sutta metaphorically portrays contact as a mental phenomenon similar to but distinct from consciousness. Here are a couple of snips: "And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do. "And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?" "Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears." "In the same say, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Larry 38840 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah > How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments > of satipatthana)? :) Two ways, one mundane and the one supramundane. It is either or or, there is no 3rd definition. This is to keep things in prespective, just like paramathas and concepts. Ken O 38841 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry (and Nina), I am going to butt in again :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "The object of javana is either a concept or a paramattha dhamma, > not both." > > Hi Nina, > > A spanner in the works: when there is desire or liking (lobha) for a > neutral feeling hearing of sound we explain that desire by saying it is > due to accumulations. Whatever accumulations are, they are not hearing > or sound. Hence, two objects: accumulations and hearing/sound. > > Are accumulations concept or reality? > > Larry > ps: I suppose we could say accumulations are an influence rather than an > object, but at this point I like it the other way better. What are the > conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between > votthapana and javana? Is there a conditional relation between > votthapana and accumulations? If you insist on dividing the world into "realities" and "concepts", then accumulations would have to fit into the "concepts" bucket. The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). Specifically, the conditioning factors (things which trigger pakatupanissaya to work) are: - Strong past rupa (28 types) - Strong past mental states (89/121 types) - Strong past cetasikas (52 types) - Some strong past concepts The conditioned factors (things which are influenced because of pakatupanissaya) are: - Current mental state (89/121 types) - Current cetasikas (52 types) The relationship between the conditioning factors and the conditioned factors is called pakatupanissaya or natural decisive support condition. Clearly, the conditioning factors and the conditioned factors fall nicely into your "concept" / "realities" buckets. But how would you categorize pakatupanissaya? My answer is that since it is not a "reality", it must be a "concept". You asked, "What are the conditions that apply between accumulations and javana and between votthapana and javana?" As you can see from the definition above, accumulations influence all types of mental states, including votthapana and javana. There are a number of conditions relating votthapana and javana. The falling away of the votthapana mental state is a condition for the arising of the javana mental state through proximity condition, contiguity condition, absence condition and disappearance condition. Larry, I think that the key issue is that the votthapana -> javana transition is no different from any other transition of mental states. You also asked, "Is there a conditional relation between votthapana and accumulations?" As we can see from the definition above, a votthapana mental state can fall into the category of conditioning factors of pakatupanissaya (as can any other mental state). Sorry Larry, I don't think that this is what you want to hear / read... :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 38842 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I missed it. The point I was > trying to make is that sanna has a decisive role in tadarammana and > votthapanna/manodvaravajjana "mental states", as you call them. ===== I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :-) ===== > The > implication is that concept manifesting as identity and habitual > response informs or cues javana cittas. ===== If you are saying that accumulations influence javana mental states, then I agree with you... accumulations influence all mental states. ===== > One might even say concept is > the object of javana no matter what the "real" object is. > Nina seems > to be resisting this idea and seems to want to make accumulations a > separate "step" between votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana. ===== Mental states in the five sense door process all take realities as object. Mental states in the mind door process almost always take concepts as object (the exception being the conformational mind door process; tadanuvattika manodvaravithi). Wherever the mental state arises, as part of a five sense door process, as part of a mind door process or even as a process-freed mental state, accumulations can always influence the mental state. The type of object that the mental state takes has no impact on the fact that accumulations will influence the mental state. Accumulations are not a separate step; they are integral to the arising of all mental states (votthapana/manodvaravajjana and javana included). ===== > > Btw, what happens to accumulations after path insight? Accumulations continue to operate after path insight. Certain accumulations (accumulations to do akusala) are uprooted and no longer work, but others will continue to work. Why did Sariputta and Mogallana have different personalities? Because of different accumulations which operated on their mental streams. Both were Arahants, but they were unique. I remember reading of a certain Arahant who had a very un-monkish habit of jumping over puddles; this was because he had spent many lifetimes as a monkey. Again, accumulations at work. We must also be careful not to create a sort of "self" out of these accumulations. Metta, Rob M :-) 38843 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Phil, Howard and Rob M, Aversion to akusala thinking and desire for kusala thinking can never bring about kusala thinking. But nor can they prevent kusala thinking from arising in succeeding moments of consciousness. The only cetasika that can prevent kusala thinking is 'wrong understanding.' I think it is fair to say that wrong understanding of the differences between kusala and akusala will, to the extent that it has been accumulated, prevent kusala thinking. Similarly, wrong understanding of the causes of kusala and akusala will, to the extent that it has been accumulated, prevent satipatthana. -------------- > > Phil: I agree absolutely that the idea making an effort to arouse kusala > > where there is none > > is a trap. Thus I am no longer comfortable with the idea of generating > > loving-kindness. It > > seems to me that it arises, or it doesn't. > ========================= > Howard: I don't think you should be so sure about this. > With regard to these thoughts and even desires > for harm to befall people, which, indeed, are unwholesome, I think you would > do well to consider the following: > 1) You cannot directly control thoughts to any useful extent. > 2) However, by repeatedly intending not to generate such thoughts, > their frequency and strength will diminish. Intention has consequences. > Phil: This is very encouraging. Thank you. My past experience with another form of unwholesome thought gives me reason to be hopeful. As Rob M says,train the puppy, not control it. --------------- Harrumph! :-) Belief in control - even if it is control "not to any useful extent," or even if it is given the name "puppy training" - will always be a form of wrong understanding. Kind regards, Ken H PS: I see there have been additions to this thread subsequent to the message I am replying to. I will post this before reading them (and hope I am not insulting too many people). :-) KH 38844 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Harrumph! :-) Belief in control - even if it is control "not to any > useful extent," or even if it is given the name "puppy training" - > will always be a form of wrong understanding. Harrumph! Harrumph! :-) I thought that with my puppy-training analogy that we had finally achieved a breakthrough with a position that we could both support. Specifically: - the mind cannot be controlled - belief that the mind can be controlled could lead to "self view" - accumulations are an important factor in determining the current mental state - accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya) - the conditioning factors for pakatupanissaya are: 1. Strong past rupa 2. Strong past mental states 3. Strong past cetasikas 4. Some strong past concepts - One of the ways in which a rupa / mental state / cetasika / concept can be made "strong" is through repeated action (aka training) In other words, if I sit for an hour a day radiating metta with energy (viriya), faith (saddha), concentration (samadhi), mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna), then this will help to create a "strong past mental state" or a "strong past concept" or a "strong past cetasika (adosa)" which can exert strong influence over future mental states. Ken H, are we still far apart? Metta, Rob M :-) 38845 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya)." Hi Rob, Aha! Well that makes sense and is completely different from the way I was understanding it. I thought accumulations meant habit, repetition, adding together. So this doesn't have anything to do with tadarammana (registration)? Isn't there registration only when there is a strong javana process? What happens to the javana registration after it is registered? I thought registration was a specialized way of "marking the object", that is to say conceptualizing the object, similar to what sanna does. The "object" in this case being the javana cittas and this concept of javana being incorporated into the identity of the nominal object of the javana which a subsequent determining consciousness would determine when a similar object arose. What are the determinations of determining consciousness based on? What exactly is a determination? Can you give an example? I see that the function of sankhara cetasikas is to accumulate. Is that related to natural decisive support condition? Does that mean that feeling and perception don't accumulate? Larry 38846 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/25/04 2:54:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > If in doubt, stick with the Sutta version would be my way to go. The whole > > goal of Abhidhamma as I see it, is to try and detail the Suttas. By trying > to > add more detail, Abhidhamma may get it right and it may get it wrong. I > think > the Abhidhamma compilers get it right most of the time; however, it may be > more detail than needed and such details may distract the mind from the more > > important considerations of impermanence, suffering, and no-self. > ---------------------------------- Howard: I agree. -------------------------------- > > I'm not sure that Abhidhamma doesn't agree with the Sutta positions on the > matters you bring up or that if -- in addition to agreeing with them, the > also > detail them in such a way that might sound contradictory if only a portion > of > the Abhidhamma teaching is being looked at. Maybe that's a possibility? > ------------------------------ Howard: I don't *think* so, but of course could be. ------------------------------ > > This could be like the Sutta where the monk and lay person argue over > whether > the Buddha taught there are 2 kinds of feelings or 3 kinds of feelings. The > > Buddha said they were both right because he taught it differently to suit > different occasions. He also suggested that they were foolish to argue > about it > because they wouldn't accept what was being properly presented by the other > one. --------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, hmm. ------------------------------------- > > Anyway, since I don't know what I'm taking about, that's my final word on > this matter. :-) > ------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know what I'm talking about either! ;-)) So ... finis! :-) ----------------------------------- > > TG > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38847 From: Evan Stamatopoulos Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Contact Hi Larry, I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the arising of consciousness. What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. If I have misunderstood, please let me know. With metta, Evan ________________________________ From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] Sent: Fri 26/11/2004 12:41 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi all, The Visuddhimagga refers to the following sutta in its description of contact. This sutta metaphorically portrays contact as a mental phenomenon similar to but distinct from consciousness. Here are a couple of snips: "And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do. "And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?" "Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears." "In the same say, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Larry 38848 From: naresh gurwani Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Dear Nina When we are born we are not born with this defilements or impurities...this develops as we grow older or is it tht we are born with it ? As as a child we dont diferientiate between any human being and so mind is so pure. i understand this life we are living is an impression of all conditions, we understand this but again we forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still the same thing happens. And regarding god, it is dificult to not accept that ther eis no supernatural power which controls us as if we consider the great epics like Bhagwat Gita, Kuran , Bible which still people follow & they get benifited. So pls comment on this matter also. And where do i get more understanding of buddha teachings and where do i find the source from Pls reply back Naresh !! --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Naresh, > op 24-11-2004 04:56 schreef naresh gurwani op > nar_gurwani@y...: > > > > Where do i read suttas from ?? > Nina: You probably have no books over there in > Curacao. Suttas are on line > and kind people here can give you links. Also on > this forum quotes of suttas > are given, like Bhante Vimalaramsi today. Sutta > reading is not easy, many > questions will come up, but that is good. 38849 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :-)" Hi Rob, I can see that as long as there is a conceptual "take" on the object supplied by a sanna-like process before it reaches javana. It just doesn't make sense to me to desire a reality. It seems illogical, misperceived, oxymoronic. Larry 38850 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) - My opinion these can be both mundane and supramundane (except for Arahants). Mundane applicable as long as one still does not obtain the supramundane stage be it reading a book etc :). Keep it simple - this is my style :). Just like A Sujin said it is just nama and rupa - simplicity is to me an impt key to lot of understanding. Ken O 38851 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Hi Joop In fact all the planes of existence have dukkha :). Which cittas and cetasikas apply to animals - that I do not know, but if I come across that in my readings, I will send to you. All the akusala cittas will definitely be with animals and I think also kusala just that cittas can be very weak. Compassion can also be there because some animals I remember able to foster young orphans animals (i think it is whale) Ken O 38852 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 57 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (d) Hi Phil If I remember correctly, yoniso-manisakara is the same as panna. If I am wrong, someone please correct me. If I come across more information on this, I will sent to you. Ken O 38853 From: Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Contact Evan: "Hi Larry, I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the arising of consciousness. What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. If I have misunderstood, please let me know." Hi Evan, The way I read it whatever is painful has to be a mental phenomenon because pain is a mental phenomenon. Nice to meet you. Larry 38854 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "I am going to play devil's advocate and take the position that > sanna plays a more important role in the santirana (investigating) > mental state, along with vicara. I am going to say that viriya (energy) > plays a more important role in the votthapanna/manodvaravajjana mental > state. Please see my last post for why I am taking this position :- )" > > Hi Rob, > > I can see that as long as there is a conceptual "take" on the object > supplied by a sanna-like process before it reaches javana. It just > doesn't make sense to me to desire a reality. It seems illogical, > misperceived, oxymoronic. As I am sure you know, the Sakadagami weakens sensuous clinging while the Anagami eliminates sensuous clinging. But what is meant by this term, "sensuous clinging"? Sensuous clinging is clinging to a sense object (a reality). It happens at an almost primordial level. Imagine that you are meditating in a very quiet place. Suddenly there is some sort of noise from the next room. Can you not detect your mind jumping onto that object? The ear loves to hear. The ear wants to hear. The ear craves hearing. This is sensuous clinging. Sensuous clinging arises before you have named the object, before the object has become a concept. Metta, Rob M :-) 38855 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? Hi Ken O / Joop, Mind if I intrude...? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > In fact all the planes of existence have dukkha :). Which cittas and > cetasikas apply to animals - that I do not know, but if I come > across that in my readings, I will send to you. All the akusala > cittas will definitely be with animals and I think also kusala just > that cittas can be very weak. Compassion can also be there because > some animals I remember able to foster young orphans animals (i think > it is whale) > Ken O My draft book (available from download from the files section) lists the mental states in all planes (Appendix III). It also lists the cetasikas in each mental state (Appendix II). To summarize the mental states which can arise in animals, they are all kamavacara mental states except #30 (smile producing citta of an Arahant), wholesome resultant mental states (i.e. bhavanga) and wholesome functional mental states (i.e. only for Arahants). Yes, animals can have kusala mental states. Metta, Rob M :-) 38856 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > > How do you translate samma ditthi of the 5fold path (i.e at moments > > of satipatthana)? :) > > Two ways, one mundane and the one supramundane. It is either or or, > there is no 3rd definition. This is to keep things in prespective, > just like paramathas and concepts. ..... S: It can't be supramundane because it is '5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)'. For supramundane samma ditthi, there must be 8fold path factors. That leaves you with a translation of 'mundane right view'. That's good. I'll just remind you that you also gave the same translation for pariyatti which is not satipatthana:) S:>> How do you translate pariyatti out of interest? > K:> Mundane right view :) .... You also said: K:> I known mundane right view is a very broad label, but we should keep > to what is shown in the text rather than using new term like > conceptual right view because it is rather confusing :). .... S: I'm glad you're not confused:-/ Metta, Sarah ====== 38857 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, Yes, I'm all for keeping it simple too:-) --- Ken O wrote: > Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning > (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) - My opinion these > can be both mundane and supramundane (except for Arahants). ... S: ...but not quite that simple:-) Supramundane refers to lokuttara cittas which take nibbana as object. Pativedha only, I think - not the above. So back to mundane pariyatti and patipatti. .... > Mundane > applicable as long as one still does not obtain the supramundane > stage be it reading a book etc :). .... S: Lokiya (mundane) refers to 'all those states of consciousness and mental factors - arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One - which are not associated with the superamundane (lokuttara)paths and fruition...' .... >Keep it simple - this is my style > :). Just like A Sujin said it is just nama and rupa - simplicity is > to me an impt key to lot of understanding. .... S: Simple but correct is best:) Metta, Sarah ===== 38858 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 59 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.3 Perception(sa~n~naa)contd] ***** When we recognize someone’s voice, this is actually the result of different processes of cittas which experience objects through the sense-door and through the mind-door. At each moment there is saññå which performs its function. There are moments of hearing of what appears through the ears, of sound, and when we think of someone’s voice there are cittas which experience concepts. The hearing conditions the thinking, we could not think of a voice if there were not hearing. It is the same when we think we ‘see’ a person. There is thinking of a concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. The recognition of a person is the result of many different processes of citta and each moment of citta is accompanied by saññå. There is seeing which experiences visible object and after the eye-door process has been completed visible object is experienced through the mind-door. There are other mind-door processes of cittas which experience concepts. ***** [Ch.2 Perception(sa~n~naa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 38859 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hey Eric, (sorry: I forgot to get back here - it's been a popular thread:/) --- ericlonline wrote: > > S: And what is this 'I'? > > ..... > > I mean I AM. You doubt your existence? .... S: What is 'I' and 'I AM'? Is it seeing or hearing or what? ..... > I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping > at objects and all that is left is I AM, then > can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! > The illusion is finally seen thru. .... Grasping is lobha, so is lobha 'I AM'? So is it 'I' that quits grasping too? What reality is this? So the illusion of 'I AM' is left and seen to be non-existent by what or whom – ‘I’ again? Metta, Sarah p.s Ken O, maybe you can help me with these ‘simple’ riddles too;-/ ======= 38860 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah and Eric > ..... > > I AM is grasping! Only when it quits grasping > > at objects and all that is left is I AM, then > > can it can be SEEN to be non-existent. Then poof! > > The illusion is finally seen thru. > .... k: Aiya, as long as there is I am, there is still grasping. It should be the other way round, when it quits grapsing at a I (as long as there is an I, we will not be able to see the three marks, what are left are only objects (paramatha dhammas only). Illusion can only be seen through when the I is eliminated and not the other way round because paramatha dhammas are real not imaginery. Keep it simple :) Oops not to forget the correct part. Ken O 38861 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural > decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya)." > > Hi Rob, > > Aha! Well that makes sense and is completely different from the way I > was understanding it. I thought accumulations meant habit, repetition, > adding together. So this doesn't have anything to do with tadarammana > (registration)? ===== Accumulations impact all mental states, including tadarammana. ===== > Isn't there registration only when there is a strong > javana process? What happens to the javana registration after it is > registered? I thought registration was a specialized way of "marking the > object", that is to say conceptualizing the object, similar to what > sanna does. ===== Tadarammana mental states only arise as part of a sense-door process taking a "very great" object or as part of a mind-door process taking a "clear" object. When, for instance, a person looks at the radiant moon on a cloudless night, he gets a faint glimpse of the surrounding stars as well. He focuses his attention on the moon, but he cannot avoid the sight of stars around. The moon is regarded as a very great object (tadarammana mental states will arise), while the stars are regarded as minor objects (tadarammana mental states will not arise). Both moon and stars are perceived by the mind at different moments. In the case of a very great object, the vibrating bhavanga arose after a single instance of past bhavanga. In this case, when the javana mental states have finished, the object (which always lasts for 17 mind-moments) is taken by tadarammana mental states. Tadarammana mental states are vipaka, the resultant of the same kamma which caused the sense-consciousness mental state, the receiving mental state and the investigating mental state. ===== > The "object" in this case being the javana cittas and this > concept of javana being incorporated into the identity of the nominal > object of the javana which a subsequent determining consciousness would > determine when a similar object arose. ===== All mental states in the same sense-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. All mental states in the same mind-door process (after the initial bhavanga mental states) share the same object. It is not possible for the object to change part way through a process. ===== > > What are the determinations of determining consciousness based on? What > exactly is a determination? Can you give an example? ===== I view the determining (votthapana) mental state as being similar to the five sense door adverting (avajjana) mental state. Both are functional. In a mind door process, the determining (votthapana) mental state is called the mind door adverting mental state because it performs the same function as the sense door adverting mental state does in the sense door process. Let us first consider the function of the adverting mental state. Prior to the adverting mental state, there are vipaka mental states (bhavanga) taking some past object. Following the adverting mental state is the sense door consciousness mental state taking the current rupa as object. The function of the adverting mental state is to change the direction of the flow of the process; changing the object from the old to the new. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-pointedness (ekaggata) comes into play. The mind concentrates attention (manasikara) on the source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention (manasikara) is the prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness (ekaggata). This concentration of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external object. Attention (manasikara) makes the mind different from the previous (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind [gasp!] to advert to the new object. All this takes energy, which is why this mental state needs the cetasika viriya. So what influences the function of the adverting mental state? Our friend pakatupanissaya. I don't use the term accumulations, as this term implies something in the distant past; a very recent rupa / nama / concept can be strong because of the fact that it is recent. For example, if I have a bad day at the office, the relatively recent mental states will impact my mental states when I get home through pakatupanissaya; in other words pakatupanissaya is bigger than accumulations. Now let us consider the function of the determining (votthapana) mental state in a sense-door process. Prior to the determining mental state, there are passive vipaka mental states (sense- consciousness, receiving, investigating). Following the determining mental state are the active javana mental states. Wheras the adverting state allows the change of object, the determining state allows the change from passive to active modes. The type of javana and the strength of the javana that arises is not fixed at the determining mental state; these things are fixed by pakatupanissaya when the javana mental state arises. Here is the analogy of the man asleep under the mango tree to illustrate the function of the adverting and determining mental states. The adverting mental state corresponds to the moment that the man awakes (because of the falling mango). It represents the change from "sleeping" mode to "taking the mango" mode. The determining mental state arises after the man has picked up the mango (receiving), pressed and smelled the mango (investigating). The determining mental state is the moment when the man decides that the mango is ready to eat. Of course, the javana mental states are the eating of the mango. The tadarammana mental state is when the man notes that the taste of the mango still remains in his saliva, even after the last piece of mango has been eaten. The man swallows his saliva as an after-taste, truly finishing the mango experience. ===== > > I see that the function of sankhara cetasikas is to accumulate. Is that > related to natural decisive support condition? Does that mean that > feeling and perception don't accumulate? ===== Not sure about this one. The definition of pakatupanissaya states that strong past cetasikas can be conditioning states and this must include feeling and perception. Metta, Rob M :-) 38862 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:36am Subject: Re: Evil thoughts (Howard) Hi Rob M, Thanks for your reply. After a cordial exchange of harrumphs, you wrote: ---------------- > I thought that with my puppy-training analogy that we had finally achieved a breakthrough with a position that we could both support. > ----------------- Rob, you don't read all your messages! Every time you have put forward your 'habit condition' theory I have pooh-poohed it. (A good word while we're on a puppy-training theme.) I have said, "But if you, as a typical worldling, are sitting in meditation having thoughts of self and lobha for Path-progress (and dosa for 'having to do this while your mates are out having a good time' etc.), then what kind of habit are you developing?" The answer is, of course, 'an akusala habit' (which is not a good conditioning factor for enlightenment)! ------------------------- RM: > Specifically: - the mind cannot be controlled ------------------------- I'll give that a tick. Some people might protest and quote where the Buddha extols 'a controlled mind,' but you and I know what we mean. :-) ----------------------- RM: > - belief that the mind can be controlled could lead to "self view" ----------------------- Another tick; but is there any "could" about it? In one sutta (often quoted on DSG) the Buddha said, "If consciousness [body, feelings, perceptions and volitions] were self, it would be possible to decree, 'let my consciousness be thus!' [etc.]." So it would seem that the idea of self and the idea of control always go hand in hand. -------------- RM: > - accumulations are an important factor in determining the current mental state > -------------- Yes (I think I know what you mean). --------------------------- RM: > - accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya) - the conditioning factors for pakatupanissaya are: 1. Strong past rupa 2. Strong past mental states 3. Strong past cetasikas 4. Some strong past concepts - One of the ways in which a rupa / mental state / cetasika / concept can be made "strong" is through repeated action (aka training) > -------------------------- I defer to your superior knowledge. :-) ---------------- RM: > In other words, if I sit for an hour a day radiating metta with energy (viriya), faith (saddha), concentration (samadhi), mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna), then this will help to create a "strong past mental state" or a "strong past concept" or a "strong past cetasika (adosa)" which can exert strong influence over future mental states. > ----------------- Boy, will it ever! I think if you can do that for one *second* per day you will be on the verge of enlightenment. How is it done? How does one decree, "Let my mental states be thus?" :-) In other words, we are back where we started: You can't escape samsara and you can't develop wholesome qualities by wanting to. The only factors for enlightenment are; association with wise friends (study), hearing the true Dhamma (study), wise consideration of the true Dhamma (study) and practice (satipatthana) in accordance with what you have studied. Kind regards, Ken H 38863 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, .... S: It can't be supramundane because it is '5fold path (i.e at moments of satipatthana)'. For supramundane samma ditthi, there must be 8fold path factors. k: Sorry boss, forget about the 5fold part. You are right supramundane is 8fold :). But satipatthana is for both supramundane and mundane as those who are not yet Arahant, still have to practise that. :) Sarah : I'll just remind you that you also gave the same translation for pariyatti which is not satipatthana:) k: Can you give me a text that support this position :). If pariyatti learning is not about satipatthana in the mundane sense, then there is no salvation, dont bother reading the text then :). A simple reading of the text or listening to dhamma can be both ways, kusala or akusala, there can be moments of satipatthana because it conditioned mundane right view. > Supramundane refers to lokuttara cittas which take nibbana as > object. Pativedha only, I think - not the above. So back to mundane > pariyatti and patipatti. > .... k: Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to say that Nobles One that are not Arahants, still have to have to do pariyati and patipatti. I still have to say satipatthana is also supramundane as lokuttara cittas are the emboidement of the perfection of the 8fold. Ken O 38864 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:44am Subject: HEY AZITA! Hello Azita, Yes, I am receiving your off-list posts. I have replied to them all - loved the one about Chittapala, I cried too.:-) I have no idea what mara has taken over parts of my computer - currently it also won't open .pdf files or read power point. Can you please check that your anti-spam programme recognises my new email address? cforsyth1 @ bigpond.com (remove spaces from before and after the @). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 38865 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:38am Subject: Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Phil, I got inspired when I came across the Pali term dhammanijjhaanakkhanti on tape and remembered the post of Nina’s you asked both she and I about. I’m pretty sure it’s this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35660 Reflective acceptance, seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and developing as much kusala as possible. We can talk about the value of any kusala, but not just following without any understanding. Look forward to your further reflections. Metta, Sarah p.s. I hope you also saw my post to you (and others) on ‘detachment’ with reminders from India (nov 15th) #38303 as I think it was sent when you were having computer problems. =================================== 38866 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 59 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (f) Hello all > When we recognize someone's voice, this > is actually the result of different processes of cittas which experience > objects through the sense-door and through the mind-door. At > each moment there is saññå which performs its function. There > are moments of hearing of what appears through the ears, of > sound, and when we think of someone's voice there are cittas > which experience concepts. The hearing conditions the thinking, > we could not think of a voice if there were not hearing. > > It is the same when we think we 'see' a person. There is thinking of a > concept, but this thinking is conditioned by the seeing of visible > object. The recognition of a person is the result of many different > processes of citta and each moment of citta is accompanied by > saññå. There is seeing which experiences visible object and after > the eye-door process has been completed visible object is > experienced through the mind-door. There are other mind-door > processes of cittas which experience concepts. Having hearing and seeing together like this reminded me of Nina's example of the opera singer, how we experience an opera singer through different doors, perhaps liking what we see but not what we hear, or the other way around. There are different processes going on, through different doors. Though there is only one at a time, it feels to us as though they were happening simultaneously So let's someone coming our way on the sidewalk waves and calls our name. In this case, I guess the eye door processes and the ear door processes would be arising and falling one after another. But the eye door processes would seem to be dominant. We rely more on visual information than auditory information, don't we? Eye-eye-eye-ear-ear-eye-eye-eye-ear-ear-eye-eye-eye-eye (not to mention the mind door processes) Would it depend on the individual's accumulation which would seem dominant, the visual information or the auditory information? Or the conditioning power of the objects? By object decisive support condition, or natural decisive support condition? But ...what we see is vipaka. So if an eye door process has fallen away, and an ear door process has intervened, is the following eye door process, if there is one, vipaka from the same kamma as the eye door process that had fallen away two processes back? Presumably there are dozens or hundreds or thousands or millions of eye door processes in what we consider a single stretch of looking at something. Are they all vipaka of the same kamma that brings pleasant or unpleasant objects our way? It's fascinating to know, even intellectually, that a moment as simple as looking up and seeing someone walk by is loaded with so many momentary processes. Metta, Phil p.s Sorry - I know the above jumble isn't about sanna. 38867 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: ... Hallo Rob and Ken O (and all), Rob wrote: My draft book (available from download from the files section) lists the mental states in all planes (Appendix III). It also lists the cetasikas in each mental state (Appendix II). To summarize the mental states which can arise in animals, they are all kamavacara mental states except #30 (smile producing citta of an Arahant), wholesome resultant mental states (i.e. bhavanga) and wholesome functional mental states (i.e. only for Arahants). Yes, animals can have kusala mental states. Joop: Thanks, Rob. But I couln't find Appendix III in the version I downloaded november 18 Another set of questions about it: - You wrote on page 66 of your book "The intention which is expressed through bodily intimation and vocal intimation can be understood by others, even by animals." Do you mean "understood by all animals" or just the higher ones (for example the womb-born in Abhidhamma-terms) ? - I have understood that all rupa's can be experienced by animals. But how about the vocal intimations 'broadcasted' by animals, do they have that faculty, or only a few species or only in a very narrow way? I mean: what is the Abhidhamma stating about it, although it aren't of course biology-readers. - Although "rupa" is not the same as "physical appearance", their are physical differences between animals and human beings (humans have bigger brains); how are these physical differences been 'translated' is differences on the rupa-level ? - Can animals make new kamma ? - Can animals medidate ? - How can animals (after their dead) get human beings ? I asked this questions and those of my other message because I wanted to get more clear the differences between human beings and animals on the spiritual level. What makes 'us' (I use this word with great hesitation) human beings special in the universe? Metta Joop 38868 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:59am Subject: AnapanaSati Full-Moon Day! Friends: Today, on this full day, the Buddha was quite satisfied with the mental progress of the monks & therefore spoke the Anapanasati Sutta. This quite refined meditation technique he himself used for Enlightenment! A unique & excellent thing in itself - A Lamp - shining bright everywhere. Awareness by Breathing Anapanasati Sutta Majjhima Nikaya 118 A gift of Dhamma. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccayana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda & other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder Bhikkhus were teaching & instructing. Some elder Bhikkhus were teaching & instructing ten Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing twenty Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing thirty Bhikkhus, some were teaching & instructing forty Bhikkhus. The new Bhikkhus, being taught & instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, were successively discriminating significant distinctions. Now on that occasion the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of Bhikkhus. Surveying the silent community of Bhikkhus, he addressed them: <........> For further study of this excellent meditation method praised by all Buddhas: "Mindfulness of Breathing" Classic Anapanasati meditation manual of all the canonical root texts on the subject translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. BPS. 1998. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404502 On this special Buddhist observance day: Anapasati Day see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html#anapanasati Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 38869 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Hello Naresh > And where do i get more understanding of buddha > teachings and where do i find the source from Most people turn to access to insight, which offers a great wealth of suttas. I am linking you now to one of the collections they have, entitled "Three Cardinal Discourses of the Budda" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel017.html It includes... 1) The Dhamma-cakka-ppavattana-sutta. This was the Buddha's first discourse, to an audience of five very lucky monks! In it, he teaches the middle way and the four noble truths. If we were wise, we would would spend years just with this one! But I start every day with it, at least, looking through different parts of it, reflecting on it. 2) The Anatta-lakkhana-sutta . Who knows how many lifetimes it will take us to directly know anatta, not-self? But by reflecting on this sutta every day we can get a very helpful basic understanding of it. 3) The Aditta-pariyaya-sutta This is a wonderful sermon that helps us see that the world is burning with the fires of lust, hatred and delusion through the six doors of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind. There is a very encouraging conclusion that we can find liberation from this self-created inferno! There is also commentary to go with these suttas. They are wonderful suttas, Naresh. I hope they are helpful for you. And I hope I will be wise enough to spend more time reflecting on them instead of rushing off to find more and more new suttas to devour! Metta, Phil 38870 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Sarah Thanks Sarah! Yes, that was the term I was thinking of. What a great post. You know, I just can't help but say how much I enjoy reading Nina's posts! Nina>>>>Bhikkhu Bodhi explains about khanti in his translation of the Perfections of the Bodhisatta. There is a kind of khanti, patience, that is reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma, dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. It is intellectual acceptance of doctrines that are not yet completely clear to the understanding. He says, it is a I think that there are sufficient points of the Dhamma we can verify now, so that we have confidence. Is it not true that there is a growing understanding of the different kusala cittas and akusala cittas that arise? Phil: For me, there is this acceptance of doctrines that are *not at all* clear either! Now, some here would call that blind faith, or whatever, but I recently found a sutta that very nicely captures the importance of faith but also how it is not necessary to give up "protecting" the truth. Now what was it.... Here it is. Just a bit of it. I haven't studied the sutta in depth. From MN 95: "If a man has faith, then he guards truth when he says "My faith is thus," but on that account draws no unreserved conclusion, "Only this is true, the other is wrong." In this way he guards the truth; but there is as yet no discovery of truth." We can have faith in something that we cannot yet begin to fathom based on, as Nina says, those sufficient points that we can verify through experience now, and also on the knowledge that we are guarding the truth, we are not drawing "unreserved conclusions." But we are not standing back and getting tied up in reservations. I think of my feelings about metta meditation, as I wrote to Bhante V. Maybe at this point the reservations have outweighed the faith, and I can't let go of them. I can't take that leap of faith when it comes to meditation, because of the reservations. On the other hand, I have yet to develop as many reservations with respect to Abhidhamma, though there are wisely some. But not enough to prevent faith from arising. There is "as yet no discovery of truth." When that comes, there are no more reservations. Technically speaking, I suppose that only comes at sotapanna. When there is no more doubt. Metta. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil > > Hi Phil, > > I got inspired when I came across the Pali term dhammanijjhaanakkhanti on > tape and remembered the post of Nina's you asked both she and I about. I'm > pretty sure it's this one: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35660 > > Reflective acceptance, seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and > developing as much kusala as possible. We can talk about the value of any > kusala, but not just following without any understanding. > > Look forward to your further reflections. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s. I hope you also saw my post to you (and others) on 'detachment' with > reminders from India (nov 15th) #38303 as I think it was sent when you > were having computer problems. > =================================== 38871 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Search & Rescue for Phil Hi Phil, I'm glad I found the right one - I had been following a red herring in my search efforts before by searching 'vinaya' which you'd mentioned. I agree with you about this great post and Nina's other writings. I'm very grateful to have been receiving them continuously for - well, my whole adult life really....Even in the old manual typewriter days, she used to kindly send me carbon copies of letters she wrote round the world. Thanks for refreshing our memories on this one - I'm going to re-read it later. S. --- plnao wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah > > Thanks Sarah! Yes, that was the term I was thinking of. What a great > post. You know, I just can't help but say how much I enjoy reading > Nina's posts! > 38872 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 136 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 121 cittas, 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas have been discussed in the previous post. All 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas that is 1st jhana sotapatti magga, sakadagami magga, anagami magga, arahatta magga, sotapatti phala, sakadagami phala, anagami phala and arahatta phala have 36 cetasikas out of 52 total cetasikas. Citta is just one entity. It is pure. This citta is now accompanied by 36 cetasikas. But these 8 cittas are special cittas and they all are lokuttara cittas. Atomic level sees citta as a single entity and other 36 cetasikas as separate entities. But they do not exist in isolation. Now they are seen at molecular level. That is a citta which is accompanied by 36 distinctive cetasikas. In lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, there are 8 total lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. These have been discussed in the portion of lokuttara cittas in citta portion. Magga citta when arise with the power of 2nd jhana becomes magga 2nd jhana cittas. But all these 8 lokuttara jhana cittas are not rupavacara cittas at all. This is the crucial point that should have taken note in mind. When BASIS are not well understood, then there have to arise many many controversials. Behind these controversials, there are many lobha cittas, dosa cittas, moha cittas and endless akusala cittas which stabilise the arguement to stay all the time. This is the power of akusala where ahirika, anottappa, uddhacca, and moha are powerfully attract people to be in argumentation and disputes. In lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, as jhanas are considered, vitakka does not arise in 2nd jhana. So from 36 cetasikas, vitakka is not counted in 2nd jhana. So there will be left 35 cetasikas and citta. These 8 cittas are lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas. This is seen at molecular level. At atomic level, citta is to know the object and each of 35 cetasikas in these 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas each do their job of cetasika functions. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38873 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas, suttas please. Hello again, Naresh Please allow me to jump in with another sutta for you. > i understand this life we are living is an impression > of all conditions, we understand this but again we > forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult > to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still > the same thing happens. I understand how you feel. One step forward and two steps back - it feels like that. But we have to be patient. Here is a wonderful sutta - maybe Nina already gave it to you, I can't remember- about how patient we have to be about progress. It is a kind of a paradox. I think the Buddha taught it to some devas (heavenly beings) in order to encourage them not to be proud. "Crossing Over the Flood." (Samyutta Nikaya I.1) I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then a certain devata, in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, she stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood." "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place (or: unestablished)."[1] "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." [The devata:] At long last I see a brahman, totally unbound, who without pushing forward, without staying in place, has crossed over the entanglements of the world. ***** "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." If we try too hard to figure out this paradox, we will miss the message. We have to let go of our mind that struggles to understand and have faith in the Buddha's teaching, relax, and wait for the truth to arise. We can't force it. Another helpful teaching I like is from the Thich Nhat Hahn, the Vietnamese Zen master. He used the image of Dhamma as very soft rain falling on a parched field. It takes a long time for the Dhamma to sink in, but it is also falling, always, always, like very soft rain on the parched soil of our minds and it *will* sink in, we can have faith in that, if we stay open to it. (Staying open to Dhamma means giving up our need to understand everything and control everything.) Metta, Phil p.s after I gave you the link in the last post (Three Cardinal Discourses) I thought that I would recommend that you don't read all the commentary until after you've read the suttas a few times, just relaxed and reflected on what they mean for you. And then read all that long commentary and the long introduction. Just read the suttas, at first. If you'd like to discuss them more with the group I'd be very interested as well. I've though of doing that, actually. Actually, maybe I will do that right now. 38874 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Larry (and Evan) - In a message dated 11/26/04 12:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Evan: "Hi Larry, > I don't understand where in the sutta quotes below contact is described > as a mental phenomenon. From what I understand contact is the process > whereby a sense base and a sense object come together resulting in the > arising of consciousness. > What I understand from the sutta quotes below is that contact is to be > understood as painful or resulting in painfulness as in the case of a > flayed cow or a person being pierced with 300 spears a day. > If I have misunderstood, please let me know." > > Hi Evan, > > The way I read it whatever is painful has to be a mental phenomenon > because pain is a mental phenomenon. Nice to meet you. > > Larry > > =========================== As I see it, contact is a mental phenomenon for the following reason: A phenomenon is mental, or visual, or aural etc depending on whether it is initially experienced via the mind door, or the eye door, or ear door etc. Now a phassa is, literally, a coming together, a confluence, a co-occurring, of an opening or activation of a particular sense door, an object at that sense door, and the resulting consciousness (experiential presence). Via what sense door is that confluence observed? The *coming together*, itself, is neither sight nor sound nor taste nor smell nor bodily sensation. Thus it is *only* via the mind door that the coming together is observed. That makes the contact a mental phenomenon. The reason that there is confusion, I think, as to what contact is, is that one thinks that it is something that "consists" of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, and two out of three of these *could* be physical, so our thought is "why think of it particularly as mental?". However, contact does not consist of three phenomena. It is a single phenomenon, the event of meeting. That single phenomenon is indeed three-ways *conditioned*, but it is not an *amalgam* of those three conditions. (Moreover, even if contact *were* an amalgam of the three, it would have to be concept-only, still making it, if anything at all, a mental phenomenon ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38875 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: is concept dukkha? Htoo: can animals have dukkha ? I found a very interesting article about our topic 'the differences between human beings an animals: THE PLACE OF ANIMALS IN BUDDHISM Anagarika P. Sugatananda (Francis Story) in http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm Metta Joop 38876 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi Howard k: Yes the Dhammasangani also point contact as a distinct event, in D.O, contact is a distinct event. If you look at the sutta quote by DN and the one I got from Expositor, points that from the collision one will see the manifestation of contact <<'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 18) that Mahaa-Kaccaana explained to the monks concerning contact: " 'This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... ' ">> <> H:> Incidentally, this sutta view need not at all turn contact into a concept instead of an experiential reality. One can understand the event that is the meeting of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness, the coming-together itself, as a cetasika which occurs with the commencement of a mindstate (citta, with a lower-case "c"). k: I dont think the sutta position of the collision is a concept, that is Ken H (point) and not mine. My position is always paramatha dhammas. Ken O 38877 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Sarah Thanks for correcting me on the supramundane and mundane as it is good to be corrected if I am wrong, that is how I learn. Just like the other day Rob K also corrected me on one email on selfless act by non-Buddhists. Just giving you an interesting sutta quote MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta, that support your view :). [294].... <<"Friend, right view is assisted by five factors when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit. Here friend, right view is assisted by virtue, learning, discussion, serenity and insight. Right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit" >> right view - is supramundane right view In this way you can be right to say that pariyatti is not mundane right view because insight here should be mundane right view [my opinion], while pariyatti should be learning and discussion. So pariyatti should be an assisting factor and not mundane right view. Oops I correcting my self - it is joy to learn dhamma from good dhamma friends around :) Ken O 38878 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/26/04 11:24:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > <<'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 18) > that Mahaa-Kaccaana explained to the monks concerning contact: > > " 'This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, > when there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one > will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... ' > ">> > > < because of the collision of the three, but is should not be > understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus because it is > declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, therefore its > manifestation is called coinciding. >> > ==================== In the foregoing, the Expositor considers contact to be one thing, and the "collision" to be a manifestation of it that is distinct from it. But in the Honeyball Sutta material that you quote, specifically in "when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)," one reading is to take the "sensory impingement (phassa)" as, itself, what manifests or appears or occurs. In other words, when there is sense-door consciousness, there then manifests phassa. (Phassa occurs exactly when sense-door consciousness arises.) Moreover, in other suttas it is said quite explicitly that the meeting of the three is exactly what contact is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 38879 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. Dear friend James, Thanks, I enjoyed your mail. op 25-11-2004 22:58 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: I don't mean to attack you in anyway and it probably > isn't good to specifically bring you up in the third person (wrong > speech), N: No, no, that is not wrong at all. > J: Nina: I am not passively waiting for pañña!!! > James: No, of course not. You are studying the texts and writing, > as I stated. But is that enough? How often do you write about > renunciation, including renunciation of the five senses and their > objects? What about the development of mental culture: jhana, > tranquility, and supernormal insight? N: I appreciate your spirited reminder. Renunciation can never be enough. The Co. states that each good deed is renunciation. True, you do not think of your own confort and do not worry about tiredness. Then there has to be detachment from a dear person, how difficult, don't you think so? That cannot be immediately but there is a way: right understanding of whatever dhamma appears, even clinging, otherwise it is my clinging. The shortness of life can remind us of the futility of clinging to dear persons. But even more the shortness of each citta. In India Kh Sujin spoke about detachment every day, and reminded us that only right understanding leads to detachment. I said that I worried about Lodewijk's health, that I cling to persons. She said: is seeing Nina, is hearing Nina? The answer is no, these cittas arise and fall away immediately. Whatever appears does so because of its own conditions, and this can help to have a certain degree of detachment, although it is mostly on the level of intellectual understanding. Jhana is another matter: it depends on one's accumulations. We have to ask ourselves: are we prepared to live secluded from all sense objects? To live as a monk? Why do we want jhana? The Bodhisatta also developed jhana, but he saw that this was not the way to eradicate clinging for good. When one develops satipatthana until the stage of the non-returner, clinging to sense pleasures is eradicated for good. J: Nina: It implies, not giving up developing understanding right now, > of all the dhammas the Buddha spoke of. > James: I believe that the emphasis should be on renunciation (non- > clinging) of dhammas, not just `understanding' them. N: Understanding leads to more detachment. Detachment from the view of self has to come first. It has to begin with understanding. If we know nothing about seeing, we shall forever cling to seeing, to the experience of what is visible. We want to see, we like it. Understanding what seeing really is: only a conditioned ephemeral dhamma, will lead to detachment from it. We cling to insignificant dhammas that do not last, not even a splitsecond. It is beneficial to learn more about them. J: Nina: Persevering, never becoming downhearted, keeping our > enthusiasm. As well as developing wholesomeness through body, speech > and mind, whenever there is an opportunity, even for kusala that > seems very slight. > James: Now, this you are very correct about and I apologize for not > mentioning this about your approach earlier. You do support the > Vinaya and the following of precepts for monks and laypeople. But > again, is that enough? N: Only the sotapanna can perfectly keep the five precepts. The sotapanna has reached the first stage of enlightenment, that is already very advanced. > James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful > thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even > thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? N: This is a good question and also a reminder to me. In practice I think it does not work like this, cittas are too fast. I do not sit down and think first about this or that kind of kusala. When Kh Sujin told me, while standing near the lift in the hotel, that only at this moment the perfections are to be developed, I took it as an encouragement. If we think: now I want to do this or that noble deed, clinging to my kusala is likely to come in. But by conditions we may move quickly when there is an opportunity for kusala. Understanding that sees the benefit of kusala can work its way. Important to remember that kusala is a conditioned phenomenon, it helps not to see it as mine. Also conditions of the past play their part. But also: when sati does not arise we can't possibly develop kusala. We waste our lives away. Listening to recordings, reading suttas, working on my Visuddhimagga studies (really more than a manual!) can remind me then and there that seeing or visible object have to be known as just dhammas. But it has to be hammered in again and again. Aeons do not disturb me, I believe that it is the present moment that matters. No time to think of aeons. Best wishes, Nina. 38880 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 116. When an object of any one of the six kinds has come into focus in the mind door, N: When visible object, sound, or another sense object has been experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process, it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between these processes. Later on mind-door processes of cittas which have concepts as objects may arise. Vis. text: then next to the disturbance of the life-continuum the functional mind-consciousness-element without root-cause (71) arises accompanied by equanimity, as it were cutting off the life-continuum and accomplishing the function of 'adverting'. N: The Tiika explains that after the arising of the retention (tadaaramma.na-citta which may arise at the end of a sense-door process), to be followed immediately by bhavanga-cittas, the five-sense-door adverting consciousness adverts to the object and that it should be said that this is immediately followed by seeing, etc. However, the Tiika states that in this exposition the two kinds of adverting-consciousnesses are dealt with. Therefore, the latter cittas (seeing etc.) are not mentioned here. With regard to the words, as it were cutting off the life-continuum, the Tiika adds: as it were interrupting the continuity of bhavanga-cittas. Vis. text: This is how the occurrence of two kinds of functional consciousness should be understood as adverting. N: These are the kiriyacittas which are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. Nobody can direct the adverting-consciousness to interrupt the stream of bhavanga-cittas, nor can anyone cause the adverting-consciousness to advert to a particular object. The object has already impinged on one of the sense-organs and interrupted the stream of bhavanga-cittas already. It all happens too quickly and cittas follow their course because of the appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. 38881 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Clinging to self, to Phil. Hello Philip, This is mine, eta.m mama, this am I, esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. See,The Root of Existence, the first sutta of the Middle Length Sayings, transl with the Co by B.B. See p. 10 if you have this book. These three aspects are explained in the Co. We may cling to ourselves without wrong view (this is mine), with conceit (this am I) or with wrong view, personality belief (this is myself). We cannot easily find out when we cling with wrong view and when without it. First nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. Through developing the stages of insight we can come to know this. But is is good to know that there are different ways of clinging and how deeply rooted they are. By the way, about Karunadasa: Rob K wrote a very balanced article about him. He explained what he appreciated in his book and what were the weak points. Perhaps he or Sarah could repost this article? A link may be hard for you to trace. Nina. 38882 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Hi Larry and Rob M, Larry, I think Rob M answered most of your questions. See below. op 26-11-2004 03:48 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > If you insist on dividing the world into "realities" and "concepts", > then accumulations would have to fit into the "concepts" bucket. > > The term "accumulations" is a shorthand way of discussing natural > decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). N: Yes. The natural decisive support condition is a relations between realities, or, even a relation between concepts (the wheather, surroundings) and citta. If you like to call a relationship concept, it is fine with me. Nina. 38883 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Naresh, suttas Dear Naresh, op 26-11-2004 04:15 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@y...: > When we are born we are not born with this defilements > or impurities...this develops as we grow older or is > it tht we are born with it ? > As as a child we dont diferientiate between any human > being and so mind is so pure. Nina: We are born with all the defilements accumulated in former lives. We carry a heavy burden, don't we? A baby cannot act much, he has to develop, but all inclinations to good or evil are there within him. You can notice that one baby cries all the time, wants attention, loses its temper, whilst another is very sweet and calm. They have different characters. Also their bodies are different: handsome or ugly or even handicapped. The Buddha explains that kamma causes persons to be ugly or beautiful, weak and subject to illness or healthy. Naresh: i understand this life we are living is an impression > of all conditions, we understand this but again we > forget and we forget so much tht it is too difficult > to come back again. Daily i try to be alert but still > the same thing happens. Nina: This is true for all of us worldlings. We have lack of alertness, even though we try. We can learn from such experiences. Our moods and emotions change so fast, this is reality whether we like it or not. But we can have more understanding of reality. We can learn that unwholesomeness is conditioned, that there is no self who is a possessor. We are empty phenomena going on because of conditions. Understanding of the phenomena of our life can be developed and even lead to the eradication of defilements. Naresh: And regarding god, it is dificult to not accept that > ther eis no supernatural power which controls us as if > we consider the great epics like Bhagwat Gita, Kuran , > Bible which still people follow & they get benifited. > So pls comment on this matter also. Nina: We can think of god, but we cannot verify his existence or non-existence. He exists in a person's thinking. We can only learn more about what is here now: seeing and the defilements arising on account of what we see, hearing and the defilements on account of what we hear. But all these phenomena are impermanent, disappear immediately. They are beyond control, no self. You cannot make them last. The Buddha taught that all phenomena are impermanent and not self. No self within us or outside of us. No permanent creator, no controller of our lives. The source of this is the scriptures. I respect all religions and their books contain great advices for human behaviour. However the Buddha taught us not to follow any holy books but to develop our own understanding. And we have to begin at this very moment, here is the dhamma we can immediately verify. Are we not seeing, hearing, are there not defilements arising? That is what we can experience, that is what we can understand more and more as impermanent and not self. Naresh; And where do i get more understanding of buddha > teachings and where do i find the source from? Nina: Reading, studying, discussing. We are discussing right now. You have to develop understanding yourself, nobody can prescribe you what to do. Nina. 38884 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'yoniso manasikara, to Ken O. Hi Ken O, I send this info to Phil before. See below. The kusala cittas can also be unaccompanied by pañña. Yoniso: rightly, in the right way. Proper attention, in the wholesome way. op 26-11-2004 06:46 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Phil > > If I remember correctly, yoniso-manisakara is the same as panna. If > I am wrong, someone please correct me. N: When the determining consciousness in the sense-door process and the mind-door adverting consciousness in a mind-door process are followed by javana cittas which are kusala, accompanied by pañña or not, there is proper attention to the object which is experienced. Thus, yoniso-manisakara refers here to the whole series of javana cittas. Manasikara has different meanings depending on the context. Manasikara denotes two cittas: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness, and it is called controller of the sense-door process. And also the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is called controller of the javanas. Then there is manasikara cetasika, attention, which arises with each citta. NIna. 38885 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah: "One path" Hi Ken O, You wrote to Sarah: ------------- > Thanks for correcting me on the supramundane and mundane Just giving you an interesting sutta quote MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta, that support your view :). [294].... <<"Friend, right view is assisted by five factors when it has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for tis fruit and benefit. Here friend, right view is assisted by virtue, learning, discussion, serenity and insight. Right view assisted by these five factors has deliverance of mind for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit, when it has deliverance by wisdom for its fruit, deliverance by wisdom for its fruit and benefit" >> ------------- Wow, I am always in awe of people who can quote suttas! This one is very similar to a sutta often quoted on DSG (including by me but I can never give its name let alone its address). However, your sutta gives five factors leading to enlightenment where the other gives only four. Could it be that the one you have quoted was delivered to monks who were practising 'samatha and vipassana' and the other one was delivered to monks who were practising 'bare vipassana?' Your 'five factors' begin with "virtue" whereas the 'four factors' begin with "association with the wise." I suppose the two could be synonymous, but "virtue" suggests samatha whereas "wise" suggests vipassana. The samatha (jhana) practitioner doesn't care for association with others (wise or unwise), does he? He needs to be in a remote, deserted place. But, if he is to escape samsara, he will, at some stage, need to hear and discuss the true Dhamma. The other pariyatti factors of the two suttas coincide ("learning" and "discussion" coincide with "hearing" and "considering"), but when it comes to patipatti yours calls it "serenity and insight" whereas the other simply calls it, "practice in accordance with the Dhamma." That could refer to the fact that, for some followers of the Buddha, there were two distinct types of bhavana - samatha and vipassana (serenity and insight). For others (following the bare-vipassana method), serenity is developed only to the extent that it arises automatically with insight. Thanks again for the quote. I hope I haven't totally distorted it. :-) Ken H 38886 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 137 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, there arise 34 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas, there arise 36 cetasikas after exclusion of 14 akusala cetasikas and 2 appamanna cetasikas of karuna and mudita cetasika from 52 total cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas, 35 cetasikas arise after exclusion of vitakka cetasika in 36 cetasikas of 8 lokuttara 1st jhana cittas. In 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas, vicara cetasika is removed from 35 cetasikas of lokuttara 2nd jhana cittas and there only arise 34 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 4th jhana cittas, from 34 cetasikas of 8 lokuttara 3rd jhana cittas piti cetasika is left out and there arise only 33 cetasikas. In 8 lokuttara 5th jhana cittas, the same amount of cetasikas arise that is 33 cetasikas arise. But vedana cetasika is in the quality of upekkha or equanimous feeling. Citta is only one. This one citta when accompanied by different combination of cetasikas and more importantly when these cetasikas qualities are different then cittas have to differ from each other, one another and they each behave separately independent of place, time and bases. This is molecular level of Dhamma and when these details can be understood, then Dhamma will be seen as if the bright light is cast in the dark. But this is hard job and a lot of practice is needed to penetrate to molecular level and atomic level. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing P.S : 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. : 2.Those who start with later posts can ask whatever is not clear. Some Pali words are not explained again. If needed please just give a reply and I will deal with that portion. 38887 From: plnao Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evil thoughts (Rob K ) Hello Rob. Thanks for the feedback. I have been slowly absorbing everyone's advice for the past week Rob:Do you want to be the one who can control thoughts? Then there are many religions and philosphies and psycholgies that will show you how. Or do you want to see that there is no one anywhere doing anything ever? Phil: I am feeling a little bit more sure that we *can* take intentional action to starve certain crude defilements, hindrances, what will you, in a way that can have a beneificial impact on our lives, very soon. Some manifestations, if that's the right word, of those defilements will disappear. But this is a completely different thing from getting at the root of the problem and really eradicating the defilements. I say this as I have good news to report. I haven't watched the news, checked the news on the internet in any way for close to three days, and guess what? I am not thinking about Bush or Iraq or anything related, and have no itching to know. The itching to know was very uncomfortable, believe me. I would look at the clock and see that it was 10 to 4, says, and think "I can see the news in 10 minutes." And those 10 minutes were consumed by that itching. It was an extreme case, an addiction. And man oh man, the lightness I felt yesterday. I will have a backslide - this is the second time I have experienced this sense of liberation, and I backslid last time. But I think I may have turned a corner. However, I have not begun to eradicate the deeper defilements that give rise to the desire for chaos and destruction in the news, for all that schadenfreude. The defilements that make me ignorant of the suffering of people involved. That is a project for many lifetimes. Would I have done now is like a doctor putting a pain relieving ointment on the skin to treat an inflammation caused by a disease that is boiling beneath, deeper in the body. The relief of the surtace suffering is much appreciated, but I know that that is all it is. And the suttas I quoted in that post did help, and do point at a more active approach to handling crude defilements. Let me requote a couple of them: -An individual with an "internal blemish" (which is later defined as "consorting with evil, unskillful wishes") may discern that this is so, and then "generate desire etc to abandon that blemish." (MN 5) - A monk may discern that "when I exert a mental fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of of exertion there is dispassion....when I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity, there is dispassion." (MN 101) There is self disgnosis, and self-treatment. It wouldn't be helfpul for subtler defilemts. In my opinion, cultivating panna in the light of a growing understanding of Abhidhamma is the only way to do that. But for this heavy lifting, these kind of suttas are very helfpul, I think. (I think of a simile of clearing a bunch of cluttered garbage, rusty old refrigerators, rain sodden, stinky magazines out of an overgrown garden before starting to cultivate it.) Another passage from MN 101: "Furthermore, the monk notices this: "When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress and pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain." It *was* tough not to check the news that first day. The second day was easier. This is crude stuff, but boy do I feel lightened today! Of course, all this happened because right understanding had been developed to the point that "I" knew it was time to do something. I'm no longer proposing that we can use self to eradicate self, as I used to. But there is room for a direct, active approach to handling some problems. There is no need to be patient about some problems. They can be handled lickety-split. But they are just surface manifestations of defilements, not the root causes. Gotta run. I'll get back to you post tonight. Thanks again. And thank you all for your support. Metta, Phil Is there anything other than the khandhas arising when you are watching TV. No one puts it clearer than the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" . Instead of been by akusala why not understand it as it is. If you read the suttas without understanding the conventional language they are termed in you will go wrong. There is TRUE right effort at a moment of understanding the dhamma that is arising now. You talk about having evil thoughts about 9/11 and trying to stop them. But if you know that sound is sound and thinking is thinking it all becomes merely objects for insight. And learning to see this you will have no doubt at all that there are no beings anywhere, there are just conditions, mere dukkha, arising and ceasing. I asked one of the group?@who are translating Buddhism in Daily life in Japan how they felt towards a guy last year who killed 6 or 7 primary school students. One who has really caught onto what Dhamma is said she felt neutral.?@I said I would love to meet him because I think he would appreciate Dhamma now (since been executed). So hearing about Osama or Bush is like a small test to show us whether we have a little understanding or none at all. Why do we always want to complicate the Dhamma. I guess being aware of the present moment is just something that doesn't seem feasible or something..? Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > I am ringing the bell, if you will, to tell you my dhamma friends about > something > difficult I have been going through. It will be one of those confession-like > threads, > so please bear with me. > > I've been reflecting on "evil thoughts" (as well as having them a lot) > recently. I have made reference to it before, but I am prone to have > far too much interest in the war in Iraq, and because of my aversion for > Bush I have found myself rooting for the insurgents, and have taken > pleasure in the rising American casualties. I tell you this so you know that > when I title a thread "Evil thoughts" I am not talking about wanting to > eat ice cream! People, I have *evil thoughts*! And not just on occasion. > 38888 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations Rob: "Sensuous clinging arises before you have named the object, before the object has become a concept." Hi Rob, We cling to feeling but most 5-door consciousness arises with neutral feeling. What feeling are we clinging to? If we are clinging to a feeling other than the 5-door consciousness feeling then there are two feelings here. Also I'm a little uncomfortable saying tadarammana is end-of-story. This javana experience isn't recirculated somehow? Larry 38889 From: Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact In a message dated 11/26/2004 8:57:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: < because of the collision of the three, but is should not be > understood that the mere collision is contact. Thus because it is > declared that contact manifest itself in this wise, therefore its > manifestation is called coinciding. >> > ==================== In the foregoing, the Expositor considers contact to be one thing, and the "collision" to be a manifestation of it that is distinct from it. But in the Honeyball Sutta material that you quote, specifically in "when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)," one reading is to take the "sensory impingement (phassa)" as, itself, what manifests or appears or occurs. In other words, when there is sense-door consciousness, there then manifests phassa. (Phassa occurs exactly when sense-door consciousness arises.) Moreover, in other suttas it is said quite explicitly that the meeting of the three is exactly what contact is. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I agree with what you say on the Suttas. I read the passage from the Expositor in a more simple way I think. I read it is merely saying that Phassa is not "just" contact (such as contact between innanimate things), but that it is contact where 3 elements -- object,sense base, and consciousness; generate feeling, sensation, etc. I could be wrong, (its happened once before), but, I think the Expositor is simply trying to clarify what the Suttas say. I don't think it is trying to promote a different view on Phassa. Does anyone have the page number on the quote from the Expositor? OK, this time its getting close to being my final word on the matter. ;-) TG 38890 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not so evil thoughts of good-hearted James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friend James, > Thanks, I enjoyed your mail. I'm glad. :-) Jhana is another matter: it depends on one's accumulations. We have to ask > ourselves: are we prepared to live secluded from all sense objects? To live > as a monk? Why do we want jhana? The Bodhisatta also developed jhana, but he > saw that this was not the way to eradicate clinging for good. When one > develops satipatthana until the stage of the non-returner, clinging to sense > pleasures is eradicated for good. Humans (and all living entities) seek pleasure. We seek pleasure through the five senses and avoid pain. Jhana is important to cultivate because it allows consciousness to experience a pleasure that is not dependent on the five senses. By doing this, consciousness is more willing to give up its craving and clinging to material pleasures and seek a pleasure beyond the five senses, ultimately nibbana. Jhana is important for householders as well because even if they don't aim for ultimate liberation, jhana could at least make them become less greedy and overindulgent. It is not impossible for householders to achieve jhana and the Buddha taught that householders should achieve jhana. > > > James: Nina, no offense, but this seems like rather passive, wishful > > thinking to me. We can develop the perfections without even > > thinking about them and they can develop even now? Are you sure? > N: This is a good question and also a reminder to me. In practice I think it > does not work like this, cittas are too fast. I do not sit down and think > first about this or that kind of kusala. When Kh Sujin told me, while > standing near the lift in the hotel, that only at this moment the > perfections are to be developed, I took it as an encouragement. If we > think: now I want to do this or that noble deed, clinging to my kusala is > likely to come in. But by conditions we may move quickly when there is an > opportunity for kusala. Understanding that sees the benefit of kusala can > work its way. Important to remember that kusala is a conditioned phenomenon, > it helps not to see it as mine. Also conditions of the past play their part. > But also: when sati does not arise we can't possibly develop kusala. We > waste our lives away. > Listening to recordings, reading suttas, working on my Visuddhimagga studies > (really more than a manual!) can remind me then and there that seeing or > visible object have to be known as just dhammas. But it has to be hammered > in again and again. > Aeons do not disturb me, I believe that it is the present moment that > matters. What about being mindful of one's death? No time to think of aeons. > Best wishes, > Nina. Metta, James 38891 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV, 116 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Is adverting consciousness the first time contact cetasika occurs in citta process? Contact occurs with every consciousness, right? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Vis. XIV, 116 and T