1 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 1999 8:15pm Subject: Welcome to Dhamma Study Group Dear Dhamma Friends, For some time we have been looking for a way to keep in touch and exchange useful reminders with our many Dhamma friends. Recently we came across the internet listserve concept, and we decided this would be an ideal solution. If you know of anyone elso who might like to join, please let us know. We hope you will take part in and benefit from this exchange. Please contribute any questions, answers, daily life dilemmas, correspondence with Nina or anything with some dhamma thread, however lighthearted. We hope to hear from you soon! Best wishes, Jonothan & Sarah 2 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 1999 9:22pm Subject: visit to Bangkok We'll be in Bangkok for the New Year and have planned a day of discussions with K.Sujin, Ivan, Elle, Robert, Amara and other friends. If you have any questions or issues you would like raised, pls let us know on this list as soon as possible! Best wishes, Sarah 3 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 1999 2:41pm Subject: millenium qus Dear Dh friends, To get the 'ball rolling', I have a qu for any of you who make it here and am repeating a qu just rec'd from Nina (not yet on the internet) to bring up in Bkk. So how do you view the Millenium? Are you having any useful reflections or meaningful celebrations? Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on India. We discussed vipallasas, perversions: to take impermanent for permanent, non-self for self, foulness for beauty, dukkha for happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi. Kh S. suggested each akusala sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for beauty or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?" looking f/w to hearing from you, Sarah 4 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Why study? What is the purpose of studying the many details of Buddhismm? Why did the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the Abhidhamma so intricate? If the aim is to understand the present moment then why not just study the experience of this moment? Won't too much study confuse and distract us from the real goal? The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives this answer: "There are people who like short explanations, there are people who like explanations of medium length, and there are people who like detailed explanations. Those among the different groups who are slow in understanding as regards mentality can understand realities as explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality is classified by way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. Those who are slow in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) can understand realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five senses and the five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are åyatanas. As to dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus in this classification rúpa has been explained more extensively. Those who are slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in this classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained in detail." I know which clssification I come under, hence my appreciation of the details that clarify the characteristics and functions of the many namas and rupas. Robert 5 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 3:05pm Subject: Re: Why study? >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Why study? >Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:42:22 -0800 (PST) > >What is the purpose of studying the many details of >Buddhismm? Why did >the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the >Abhidhamma so >intricate? >If the aim is to understand the present moment then >why not just study >the experience of this moment? Won't too much study >confuse and >distract us from the real goal? >The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the >Abhidhammattha >Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives >this answer: > >"There are people who like short explanations, there >are people who >like explanations of medium length, and there are >people who like >detailed explanations. Those among the different >groups who are slow in >understanding as regards mentality can understand >realities as >explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality >is classified by >way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. >Those who are slow >in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) >can understand >realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five >senses and the >five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are >åyatanas. As to >dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus >in this >classification rúpa has been explained more >extensively. Those who are >slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can >understand realities >as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in >this >classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained >in detail." > >I know which clssification I come under, hence my >appreciation of the details that clarify the >characteristics and functions of the many namas and >rupas. >Robert I think your passage nicely clarifies your questions. I have one I received from a reader, which we are preparing to put on a new page on the website, a professor at CMU sent me the following: Comment on Max Weber's "abnegation and Buddhism" Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber. >"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have >abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest >extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such >abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the typical >ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most >consistently developed in India." I sent him the following reply: Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize. It is true that Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation (concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences) as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.) which are still practiced to these days. But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the world but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4 parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, he encouraged most people to continue as laypeople. Only those he knew would become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as those who have attained were permitted to at once. For them, as well as those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way to live, not abnegation. By realizing what things really are they do not expect or force themselves to be different. Those who still have desire for the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that in fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is completely eradicated, all 'self', all 'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to practice. Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any other religious communities to understand. Any comments? Amara 6 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 9:42am Subject: Re: Why study? I think you explained it very well, Amara. It is true that the monks life is different from a laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of understanding - is the same for all. In the commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is said that far more laypeople than monks attained the stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life is more suitable for developing wisdom but because there were more laypeople. The main point to realize is that the path is an internal development. The outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of whether wisdom is developing. You said that "Only those he knew would > become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas > were ordained, as well as > those who have attained were permitted to at once. " This is a little incorrect. The order became very large later in the Buddha's life and many people became monks or nuns who never attained any of the paths . And even laypeople , such as his father, became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if they were going to live longer than a week they would enter the order. There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their , sometimes long, lives as laypeople. Robert 7 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: Why study? >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Re: Why study? >Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:42:40 -0800 (PST) > >I think you explained it very well, Amara. >It is true that the monks life is different from a >laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of >understanding - is the same for all. In the >commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is >said that far more laypeople than monks attained the >stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami >and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life >is more suitable for developing wisdom but because >there were more laypeople. The main point to realize >is that the path is an internal development. The >outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of >whether wisdom is developing. > >You said that "Only those he knew would > > become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas > > were ordained, as well as > > those who have attained were permitted to at once. " >This is a little incorrect. The order became very >large later in the Buddha's life and many people >became monks or nuns who never attained any of the >paths . And even laypeople , such as his father, >became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if >they were going to live longer than a week they would >enter the order. >There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even >after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their , >sometimes long, lives as laypeople. >Robert Thank you for the precisions, Amara 8 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 3:24pm Subject: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on Saturday. I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating. We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so accessible. My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a success. To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material (akusala vipake through several doorways)! It was a pleasure to see you again. I am sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left. The website looks great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting it set up. Keep up the good work. I am told that you had a message from Tom Westheimer. Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can invite him to join the i-group? He may well be able to put us in touch with other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also. Thanks. Jonothan 9 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 8:45am Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's >From: "Jonothan Abbott" >Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Discussion at Ivan & Elle's >Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 07:24:23 GMT > >Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on >Saturday. I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating. >We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so >accessible. > >My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a >success. > >To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material >(akusala >vipake through several doorways)! It was a pleasure to see you again. I >am >sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left. The website looks >great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting >it set up. Keep up the good work. I am told that you had a message from >Tom Westheimer. Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can >invite him to join the i-group? He may well be able to put us in touch >with >other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also. Thanks. > >Jonothan Dear Jonothan and Sarah, Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell. I was very sorry I had to leave so early especially after arriving so late! And what a lovely idea to try to get in touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: Do you have Tadao & Susie's address? I only have the street address, I wonder if they have internet access? We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone, Amara 10 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 4:51pm Subject: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating' Robert & Amara, I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up! Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand more about realities and most importantly to understand the 'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now. We all need to hear a lot of detail for sure. Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions. I would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation for mental development is very strong! (abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the words in the passage...!) Look f/w to more! Sarah 11 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 5:36pm Subject: Re: millenium qus I'm just reflecting on a few of Kh Sujin's short responses which I found very helpful during our great discussion at Ivan & Elle's house. These are not exact quotes, so pls correct or add any comments! 1. When asked about a problem in a relationship her response was to ask if were thinking of a 'sitution' again? She went on to say there would always be more situations and more problems. What about namas and rupas now? 2. When asked about difficulties one might find with another person's accumulations or 'character', she reminded us to 'take it easy' and suggested that reflecting like this showed our 'wishful thinking' for it to be another way. 3. When we reflect on how useful certain occasions such as on a dhamma trip to India are for helping us to have more awareness and compare with our regular daily life, she advised us to be aware of 'the latent attachment'. 4. When I asked Nina's qu below about vipallasas (perversions), kh Sujin's comment was that thinking can think about anything, thinking with dosa can think about anything. so there's no reason why thinking w/dosa (w/ or w'out wrong view) can't take something for beauty of happiness and of course it happens all the time. Sarah > Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on > India. We discussed vipallasas, perversions: to take impermanent for > permanent, non-self for self, foulness for beauty, dukkha for > happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi. Kh S. suggested each akusala > sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not > understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for beauty > or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?" > > looking f/w to hearing from you, > Sarah > 12 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:04am Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating' >From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" >Subject: [dhammastudygroup] abhidhamma details & 'abnegating' >Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:51:04 -0800 > >Robert & Amara, >I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up! > >Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin >explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand >more about realities and most importantly to understand the >'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now. We all >need to hear a lot of detail for sure. > >Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions. I >would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing >the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be >because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the >idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The >clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation >for mental development is very strong! > >(abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the >words in the passage...!) >Look f/w to more! >Sarah Sarah: you know, the reader was only quoting Max Weber in his question and all the strangeness must be blamed on MW! (By the way, is he still alive?) You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join our group? He has many good questions and we could all comment on them for him. His e-mail address is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105 you could send him an application form. Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this was the first question he sent me, followed by my reply: >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700 >Please tell me what is the real meaning of 'meditation'? Is it only >'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with me, I would like to >make sure we mean the same thing. >Thanks. The word meditate originally comes from the latin meditatus which means to cure, to remedy, to find the answer to a problem. Nowadays one still uses it to mean to think, to ponder, to focus on something mentally. In most religious senses it is to concentrate, to focus, to have one pointedness of the mind over a certain period. In the Buddha's teachings it is much more refined, he taught that each instant of citta arises with a samathi cetasika which can be at any level of strenght- casual focus, barely perceptible, to the very strong focus of the jhana cittas. It can also arise with good or bad cetasikas (as kusala or akusala) and be the right or wrong kind (arising with sati it is samma-samadhi as opposed to miccha-samadhi) and it's object could be anything that the citta and cetasikas it arises with is experiencing. Of course if the person you're having the discussion with does not know the what the Buddha taught about cittas and cetasikas it would be very hard for them to understand this aspect of meditation, so I would personally doubt that you would be speaking of the same thing when you use this word! **************************************** We are also preparing this one for the web, so please comment!!! Thanks in advance, Amara 13 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:36am Subject: Re: millenium qus >Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on >India. We discussed vipallasas, perversions: to take impermanent for >permanent, non-self for self, foulness for beauty, dukkha for >happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi. Kh S. suggested each akusala >sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not >understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for beauty >or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?" > >looking f/w to hearing from you, >Sarah It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had missed most of it. I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha that can accompany either one. Of course they can all rapidly arise alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant! This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think. What about you? Amara 14 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Invitations to new members >You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join >our group? He has many good questions and we could all comment >on them >for him. His e-mail address is >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105 >you could send him an application form. Message for all. If you know someone who might like to join our group, simply invite them to send a (blank) message to- . Amara, Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when next "speaking"? I do not have a name for him as yet! Thanks. Jonothan 15 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:46pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating' --- amara chay wrote: > Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this > was the first question > he sent me > > >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700 > >Please tell me what is the real meaning of > 'meditation'? Is it only > >'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with > me, I would like to > >make sure we mean the same thing. > >Thanks. > > > We are also preparing this one for the web, so > please comment!!! > Thanks in advance, > Amara Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are two kinds of mental development, the development of insight, vipassana and the development of calmness, samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can be developed in daily life. I would also refer the reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more detail.> hope this helps, Sarah______________________________________________________ > > 16 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:48pm Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's >Dear Jonothan and Sarah, >Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again >too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell. I was very sorry I had to leave so early >especially after arriving so late! And what a lovely idea to try to get in >touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: >Do you have Tadao & Susie's address? I only have the street address, I >wonder if they have internet access? > >We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone, >Amara Amara, Thanks very much for Tom's address. I have sent him an invitaion. We do not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University. Will keep you posted. By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my earlier message. I hope it was an obvious mistake! Jonothan 17 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 6:59pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members Amara, Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when next "speaking"? I do not have a name for him as yet! Thanks. Jonothan His name is Tanarong, like in the address. He knows Nina v. G. and has been kind enough to print out the website's English section for Nina W. in Nakorn Phanom. By the way, I wish we could persuade both Ninas to get online! I've forwarded your invitation to him already, Amara ______________________________________________________ 18 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:03pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating' Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are two kinds of mental development, the development of insight, vipassana and the development of calmness, samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can be developed in daily life. I would also refer the reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more detail.> hope this helps, Sarah Are you quite sure? I would say that the meaning of bhavana is mental development, but I have my reserves about the meaning of meditation being the same, not in general anyway. Amara ______________________________________________________ 19 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's Amara, Thanks very much for Tom's address. I have sent him an invitaion. We do not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University. Will keep you posted. By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my earlier message. I hope it was an obvious mistake! Jonothan It was my pleasure, and may I ask if you have heard from Jill and her husband? It would be so nice to hear from her again. Do they still live in Australia? Amara ______________________________________________________ 20 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 3:42pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members --- amara chay wrote: ...By the way, I wish we could persuade both > Ninas to get online! > Amara> ______________________________________________________ Amara, i've already faxed a few pages to Nina VG and strongly encouraged her...I'm sure she will in time. I think Nina V has no tel line.. we can keep encouraging! S. 21 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 8:18pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus > >It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had >missed most of it. I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we >all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and >certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the >paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that >are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness >arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha >that can accompany either one. Of course they can all rapidly arise >alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant! >This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without >knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to >accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think. >What about you? >Amara Amara, as you point out 'happiness' cannot arise with dosa, but thinking with dosa can have any concept as object, even concepts and stories about happy times and happy objects....I gave an example to Nina of when one is on a diet at Xmas and looks at the Xmas pudding with dosa ...and taking it for something pleasurable with or without wrong view, but as you say, definitely accumulating sanna vipallasa and always with moha! It's great to have all yr contributions here..I'm having trouble keeping up! Am hoping to track down the 'old hands' like Jill, but will take time and not everyone is on the net, yet! I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep it up! Best regards, Sarah 22 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:30pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members Jonothan & Sarah, Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion? We would also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if you want. That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up. We could also print out copies to be sent to those without internet access. In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and arrange the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless you have ideas for those as well. Any news can be sent to you so that you can edit them as you like. Any hope for me at all of that happening? Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!! Amara ______________________________________________________ 23 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:44pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus >I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the >websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and >moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep >it >up! >Best regards, Sarah Sarah, if you would like to add any 'letters' to the site, any favorites of yours, for example, we're always avid for material(as you may have noticed)! Amara Speaking of the website, this morning we've completed the 'Outlook' series and added the 'Mental Development in Daily Life' with another beautiful background photo by Greg Allikas on the front page (and also a very nice 'line' for the articles), please take a look and tell us what you think, everyone! A. ______________________________________________________ 24 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 4:32pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism To my mind, the passage from Max Weber is a good example of the fallacies that people commonly hold to about Buddhism. Buddhism is regarded as a teaching that extolls the meditative life of a monk above all else; and the more ascetic the lifestyle, the greater the understanding is likely to be. For all the reasons given in earlier messagaes, this is not the case. I am reminded in particlular of the sutta in which the Buddha explains that although there are monks in the order who follow various ascetic practices (1 grain of rice a day, etc), it is not by virtue of these practices that they make progress in the Dhamma. As I recall it, this sutta puts to rest completely the argument that ascetic practices are a necessary part of the teaching. The first of these is that the practice involves some form of solitary contem.ation, namely (a) that The proper practice of Buddhism invloves becoming a monk (b) That The more ascetic the individdaul the moreprogress along the path. (c) >Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber. >>"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have >>abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest >>extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such >>abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the >>typical >>ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most >>consistently developed in India." > > >I sent him the following reply: > >Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize. It is true that >Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to >kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation >(concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences) >as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.) >which are still practiced to these days. > >But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most >practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up >with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the >world >but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one >need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4 >parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, >he >encouraged most people to continue as laypeople. Only those he knew would >become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as >those who have attained were permitted to at once. For them, as well as >those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way >to >live, not abnegation. By realizing what things really are they do not >expect or force themselves to be different. Those who still have desire >for >the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that >in >fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to >others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain >levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things >automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it >requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is >completely eradicated, all 'self', all >'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The >techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment >of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to >practice. > >Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other >religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example >Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or >gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all >kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any >other religious communities to understand. > > >Any comments? >Amara 25 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 0:50am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members Amara, a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our jobs, a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can manage for now..... Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I have friends in S.F. who may wish to join. Sarah >Jonothan & Sarah, >Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning >for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion? We >would >also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip >to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom >wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also >announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if >you >want. That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep >everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up. We could also >print out copies to be sent to those without internet access. >In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors >for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and >arrange >the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless >you have ideas for those as well. Any news can be sent to you so that you >can edit them as you like. Any hope for me at all of that happening? >Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!! >Amara ______________________________________________________ 26 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 3:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism Hi everyone Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen' to Dhamma discussions again as the opportunity does not arise that often here in England. I was interested in the point of what do farangs mean when they talk of meditation, for the majority of British people their understanding of meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan Buddhists who study the Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of tranquility and as a means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists who do not study it is obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana and most believe that one must find a quiet place in which to relax inorder for it to be "effective". Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I agree with Jonathan when he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to be the case with the vast majority of Buddhist writers these days including that of taking many things out of context - a true journalistic activity. A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were possibly only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country. Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk browsing through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that close to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings Rosan 27 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 2:29pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members >Amara, >a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our >jobs, >a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for >his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can >manage for now..... > >Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most >welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls >let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I >have >friends in S.F. who may wish to join. >Sarah Sarah, I still wish you could do it, but thanks anyway. I really hope things turn out fine for you, too, even without the Thai maids! We'll send you the details of the trip as soon as we get them but perhaps Ivan and Ell would be a more direct source, Amara ______________________________________________________ 28 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 8:32am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism Good to read Rosan's astute summary of the misunderstandings about meditation and Buddhism in general. I just returned from a trip to the Holy places in India: the people I talked to were very confused about the path. Even some who study Abhidhamma miss the point. I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer, or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief in self. Robert --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Hi everyone > Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen' > to Dhamma discussions > again as the opportunity does not arise that often > here in England. > I was interested in the point of what do farangs > mean when they talk of > meditation, for the majority of British people their > understanding of > meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan > Buddhists who study the > Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of > tranquility and as a > means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists > who do not study it is > obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana > and most believe that > one must find a quiet place in which to relax > inorder for it to be > "effective". > > Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I > agree with Jonathan when > he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to > be the case with the > vast majority of Buddhist writers these days > including that of taking many > things out of context - a true journalistic > activity. > > A final point of interest an incident this week > reminded me of a discussion > in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought > that there were possibly > only a handful of real monks in the whole of the > country. > Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London > there was a monk browsing > through computer games. Plus on several occasions I > see a particular monk > browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan > sangha community that close > to me without train and bus journey). These > instances I find always give me > pause to think, combined with the many superficial > books obtainable > everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the > teachings for me as they > demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being > eroded mainly from the > inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings > Rosan > 29 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:09am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline of Buddhism Rosan, it's great to hear yr contributions here..we look f/w to more! following on from yr comments about the declind of Buddhism...I asked K.Sujin on her recent trip to India whether she finds the holy places more inspiring on each visit (she's told us before how she finds her visits to be good reminders of the Buddha's virtues and teachings). She said that 'no' she didn't find them more inspiring this time, but she reflected more on the decline of the teachings....I understood this was from the behaviour of others at the sites, but didn't go into detail. IVAN maybe able to elaborate! It's good to hear that when you see Buddhist monks not following the vinaya that it reinforces the teachings for you. Usually it's a condition for dosa (aversion) for me. Thanks for that reminder! Sarah >A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion >in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were >possibly >only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country. >Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk >browsing >through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk >browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that >close >to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me >pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable >everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they >demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the >inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings >Rosan > 30 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:17am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Misunderstanding of Buddhism >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism Robert, did you have any more useful discussions in Bkk...I expect you're back in Japan now. Your kids must be happy to see you! Your comments below can be a reminder to have loving kindness (metta) and compassion (karuna) to those who have not been so fortunate to hear or even understand a little about the essence of the Buddha's teachings. It's a good reminder for me. >Even some who study >Abhidhamma miss the point. > >I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we >have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to >the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer, >or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something >radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief >in self. >Robert 31 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 11:17am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Decline Dear Sarah, Yes , I am now back in Japan. I had dinner with Ivan before left and we discussed some points. My children were happy indeed, especially when they opened the presents bag. Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a problem - anyone who knows even a little about Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit Dhamma that is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people, even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some ways while hurting in others. I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher. I spoke to a couple of people near the Boddhi tree in Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation - which was about sati -but apologised because she had to start chanting . She had to repeat something several thousand times and was concerned that this be done on time. She said her guru told her that this would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so that they can be analysed, understood and eventually dropped. Robert 32 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:42am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline Robert, I agree that probably the greatest danger to the Teachings probably comes from monks who appear to keep good sila and to have studied extensively but yet distort the teachings, because as you say, it's harder for most people to detect... With regard to attachment to kusala, I wouldn't call this subtle at all.... panna w/ detachment..yes we mind about the object ..we'd rather it were kusala..no detachment from the akusala cittas or vipakas... And of course, there can be no saddha without right understanding developed....just wishful thinking. On the subject of 'wishful thinking' , i just had a fax from Nina. i had sent her a few of the first pages from here to show her what we were doing and she liked the comment I quoted from Khun Sujin when she responded to a comment made about having problems with someone's character...'wishful thinking'.. By the way, Nina said she's very busy w/ her writing now, but is encouraging us on the internet! Sarah >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of >Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I >think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a >problem - anyone who knows even a little about >Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks >who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT >who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who >seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit Dhamma that >is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people, >even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because >it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some >ways while hurting in others. >I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that >panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually >starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get >something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to >kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in >India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher. >I spoke to a couple of people near the Boddhi tree in >Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation - >which was about sati -but apologised because she had >to start chanting . She had to repeat something >several thousand times and was concerned that this be >done on time. She said her guru told her that this >would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example >of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own >attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so >that they can be analysed, understood and eventually >dropped. >Robert >__________________________________________________ 33 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 10:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots Robert wrote: >I spoke to a couple of people near the Boddhi tree in >Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation - >which was about sati -but apologised because she had >to start chanting . She had to repeat something >several thousand times and was concerned that this be >done on time. She said her guru told her that this >would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example >of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own >attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so >that they can be analysed, understood and eventually >dropped. This is so true. The need to see our own attachments and wrong view. In a way, this is what the game is all about. And I think, going back to an earlier theme, that meditation as it is generally understood is on a different tack. For many, the purpose of practising meditation is to have a particular kind of wholesome mental state. For these people, any unwholesomeness arising is not a desirable thing. We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment of understanding, at whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment or wrong view or akusala of any kind arising is a very valuable moment. In this sense, we can be happy to see more akusala! ______________________________________________________ 34 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 10:44am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots Dear Jonothon, Your comments are spot on:> "We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment > of understanding, at > whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment > or wrong view or akusala > of any kind arising is a very valuable moment. In > this sense, we can be > happy to see more akusala!" The path is completely different from what I thought it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be) simply an object for understanding, a validation of the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that any and all objects - strong fear, the most intense pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm, sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna. Sarah, would you be able to send me the tapes of our talks in Bangkok earlier this month. If you like I will edit and send on to Nina? A point that came up in those discusions: it was suggested that seeing and colour are harder to understand as not-self because when seeing we immediately think of people , tables, objects and so on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc. through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't change so much. But I wonder about this. It is true that when we perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very slight idea of something being there? We may not think of person or table but even if we think of hardness as something like subatomic particles it is still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling the perception; of being able to induce it - then we are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the complex, evanescent conditions making up sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone) could comment and elucidate on this. Robert > > 35 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:27pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >The path is completely different from what I thought >it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a >Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be) >simply an object for understanding, a validation of >the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that >any and all objects - strong fear, the most intense >pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm, >sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any >dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna. Same for me. However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others; and strong akusual definitely comes within the "others"! ______________________________________________________ 36 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:47pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences Robert said: >A point that came up in those discusions: it was >suggested that seeing and colour are harder to >understand as not-self because when seeing we >immediately think of people , tables, objects and so >on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to >accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc. >through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it >falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't >change so much. >But I wonder about this. It is true that when we >perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it >is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very >slight idea of something being there? We may not >think of person or table but even if we think of >hardness as something like subatomic particles it is >still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then >who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an >element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling >the perception; of being able to induce it - then we >are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the >complex, evanescent conditions making up >sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone) >could comment and elucidate on this. My comment during the discussions was that it was easier for me to understand at an intellectual level that what is happening through the ear door is that an object (sound) is impinging on the earsense and being experienced by citta (hearing), than it is to understand the same thing in relation to the eyedoor. Take speech, for example. It is easy to accept that sound is experienced as sound and that it is thinking that identifies the sound as belonging to a particular speaker and carrying a particular meaning. A similar analogy in the case of visible object and seeing is much more dificult for me to grasp, even at a purely intellectual level. So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is mentioned first in the list every time. ______________________________________________________ 37 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:03am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >Same for me. However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others; and strong >akusual definitely comes within the "others"! I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant, and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation. It was of course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not be fun! But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!) that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise, in fact much more, outside crises. The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding. And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think! Amara ______________________________________________________ 38 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 8:39am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots --- amara chay wrote: > > >Same for me. However, despite understanding this > (at an intellectual level > >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit > view that certain objects > >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than > others; and strong > >akusual definitely comes within the "others"! > > > I think it depends on our individual accumulations, > I have a strange > tendency (which used to worry me a little) to > suddenly be aware in a moment > or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be > clearer for an instant, > and then the chaos would continue, but then I > usually would seem to be the > one with the "presence of mind" in that particular > situation. It was of > course better than if the opposite had happened, but > because it was more > memorable to me than other things, for a long time I > was worried that it > would take a crises for me to have the experience, > that certainly would not > be fun! > But then I realized (after quite a few years of > worrying about it, mind!) > that it was my defective memory, that other moments > of awareness do arise, > in fact much more, outside crises. > The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, > it can really arise at > any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the > right understanding. > And one very good reminder is this group and our > discussions, I think! > Amara > > Very interesting___Amara, I have a similar pattern .Because the awareness cuts the impact of the problem it is more noticeable than at other times. Robert Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion group. Have Ivan and ell joined? Robert___________________________________________________ 39 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:57am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >...................... It is true that when we >perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it >is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very >slight idea of something being there? We may not >think of person or table but even if we think of >hardness as something like subatomic particles it is >still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then >who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an >element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling >the perception; of being able to induce it - then we >are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the >complex, evanescent conditions making up >sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone) >could comment and elucidate on this. >Robert > > I agree. As soon as there is any idea (not necessarily in words) of something, it's thinking of a concept rather than awareness of the rupa which is experienced. It follows so quickly! Whenever there is an idea of one doorway being easier for awareness, such as the meditators who start with bodily feelings for example, there is usually the idea of self and control and selecting an object. It's also true, though, that some realities are easier to understand intellectually and as we know, some realities can never be the object of awareness....so of course, it all depends on the understanding when we say things... Does this make any sense? Sarah ______________________________________________________ 40 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:06am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences >From: "Jonothan Abbott" >So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is >mentioned first in the list every time. > > I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long, whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting all day long for example. ______________________________________________________ 41 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:10am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST > > >I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange >tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment >or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant, >and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the >one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation. It was of >course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more >memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it >would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not >be fun! >But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!) >that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise, >in fact much more, outside crises. >The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at >any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding. >And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think! >Amara > Interesting and funny story! Of course, in between any moments of awareness there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, especially in the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow w/understanding too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful. Sarah ______________________________________________________ 42 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:14am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots >Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion >group. Have Ivan and ell joined? >Robert___________________________________________________ > >yes, Ivan & Elle are hopefully reading & I'm sure will post SOON. Alan also >joined a couple of days ago & Tom & Bev just joined this eve. (Amara & >Jonothan knew Tom in Bkk ages back). S. ______________________________________________________ 43 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 0:29pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences >>So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is >>mentioned first in the list every time. >> >> >I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long, >whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting >all >day long for example. If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest' impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise, except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent feelings right away. K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us. Which makes me think that the order in which the Buddha spoke of the senses are more of the practical physically descending order: eyes are placed highest on the human build, then ears, nose, tongue, bodysense--though it's not only at the body but mainly there, and the mind which can arise at any doorway + the heartbase. Of course this is purely my speculation... Amara ______________________________________________________ 44 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 9:50pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack? Greetings to all from Alan in England! I would like to go off on a complete tangent to your discussions! About a year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview. "You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason. The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to reap." There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there is more detail of The Times coverage. Do you think his speech is wrong speech? The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree? I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree? Best wishes Alan 45 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 3:57pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? About a >year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the >following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview. > >"You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and >half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason. >The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about >that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to >reap." > >There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web >site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there >is more detail of The Times coverage. > I agree with G. H. and you completely. >Do you think his speech is wrong speech? > I think he was stating something no one has been able to dis-prove, rather the opposite, though very difficult to understand, to blame or credit everything on or to a higher power is much simpler. >The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree? > > Not at all. or they would not have caused trouble for him, or at least be impartial. >I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to >The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the >buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree? > Absolutely not. I think you had the right like everyone else to express your opinion, and correctly defend your beliefs. I hope they didn't make you suffer the consequences as badly as did the coach? It is great to hear from you! By the way, I've changed the links, & thanks for everything again, Amara 46 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >It is great to hear from you! By the way, I've changed the links, >& thanks for everything again, >Amara Has everyone visited Alan's new site at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ? It's really compact and fast-paced. Great work, Alan! Amara ______________________________________________________ 47 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? Dear alan, About Hoddle: About a > year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got > the sack for giving the > following quote to The Times newspaper during a > profile interview. > > "You and I have been physically given two hands and > two legs and > half-decent brains. Some people have not been born > like that for a reason. > The karma is working from another lifetime. I have > nothing to hide about > that. It is not only people with disabilities. What > you sow, you have to > reap." > > Let us face it - the understanding and acceptance of conditions including kamma in western society is almost zero. People far prefer to believe they are either the victims of blind chance or a capricious God then too think there is any connection between ethics and future results. Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be president of the world but if they don't develop understanding they are headed towards future pain. Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but are increasing their confidence in kamma and conditions -their future is bright. All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should not be surprised if their situation changes dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people. Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the attention of a few. Robert 48 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 2:35am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >Conditions are so complex - now we are >enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta >could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be >president of the world but if they don't develop >understanding they are headed towards future pain. >Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but >are increasing their confidence in kamma and >conditions -their future is bright. >All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess >lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should >not be surprised if their situation changes >dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use >kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people. I don't think that I am biased for or against a handicapped person, but it is true that everything happens according to what we have accumulated in the past as well as what we are accumulating at the present time. About the patisanthi citta, I have not long ago finished translating 'Paramathadhamma' and I quote from pp. 249-260 (in the website it would be in the Part IIa Citta ch.14) The patisandhi-cittas in the human plane and that of the apaya-bhumi are results of different kammas. The patisandhi-cittas of those in the apaya-bhumi are akusala-vipaka-cittas, the result of akusala-kammas causing births in the hell plane, in the pitivisaya-bhumi, in the asurakaya-bhumi or the animal plane. The patisandhi-cittas of those born humans or devas of different levels are kusala-vipaka-cittas, the results of kusala-kammas causing births in the sugati-bhumis. Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human plane) is kusala-vipaka, some people are born innately handicapped because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that performed the function of patisandhi are the results of kusala-kammas without panna-cetasika arising with them. The kusala-kamma must also be of a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that performed the patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with sobhana-cetasika, or it does not arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc. Since it is the result of a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma would beleaguer (the person) and render him deformed from birth. Among those who are born without disabilities, all are born distinctly, by family, rank and retinue because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that perform the function of patisandhi differ according to the strength of the kusala-kammas that are the causes. If a patisandhi-citta results from kusala-kamma with panna-cetasika of a weak kind or with none at all, the patisandhi-citta that is kusala-vipaka would arise with sobhana-cetasikas together with two hetus, namely alobha-cetasika and adosa-cetasika, as davi-hetuka-puggala, or a person whose patisandhi-citta is without panna-cetasika arising concurrently. That person would be unable to attain jhana or lokuttara-dhamma in that lifetime. Those whose patisandhi-cittas result from kamma with panna and whose patisandhi-cittas arise with panna-cetasika concurrently are ti-hetuka-puggala because there are three hetus namely, alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika and panna (amoha) -cetasika arising concurrently. Having heard the dhamma they would examine and understand it and be able to develop panna until they achieve jhana-citta or realize the four ariya-sacca-dhamma and attain nibbana and become ariya-puggala in that lifetime according to their accumulated conditions. However, one should not be overconfident. Those who are intelligent, with patisandhi-cittas that are ti-hetuka, but neglect developing kusala, and not listening to the dhamma, would be wise in worldly matters, well-educated or otherwise skillful but would not develop panna in the dhamma and would not know the characteristics of realities as they truly are. End quote. We must admit that we have all of us been pretty lucky in this life to have been born without disabilities and to have found the Dhamma at all in this day and age, especially from such a source. Now it's up to us to do our best to keep accumulating the right conditions for further panna. As I wrote another person recently, 'The dhamma of the good side flow together, help each other, lead to one another, as do the bad. It is very difficult to go against the current, which is why one must accumulate as much kusala as possible.' At least we have K. Sujin--and each other!! Amara ______________________________________________________ 49 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 11:23am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? Good to see the accuracy of abhidhamma: > > Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human plane) > is kusala-vipaka, some > people are born innately handicapped because the > kusala-vipaka-cittas that > performed the function of patisandhi are the results > of kusala-kammas > without panna-cetasika arising with them. The > kusala-kamma must also be of > a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that > performed the > patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with > sobhana-cetasika, or it does not > arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc. > Since it is the result of > a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma > would beleaguer (the > person) and render him deformed from birth. > It is also true that one may have done much good but at the time of death an akusala kamma arises (maybe from a thousand lives or more ago) and because of that one is born in a bad realm. This is somewhat frightening. The simile of the blind turtle suggests that it is very, very hard to climb back up. As I remember it though, the commentary explains that this especially applies to those with strong miccha-ditthi who deny the truth of kamma and vipaka - they become rooted in the round of samsara - because they habitually favour this denial of ethical cause and effect. On the other hand one with many parami may quicky change their status. For example, a frog listened to the Buddha - he couldn't fully understand - but had the feeling that this was good. He died and was born in a deva realm, listened to the Buddha more and became a sotapanna. There are many points to consider here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit because we compare our present good situation with others in difficult circumstances then we can refect that the situation could reverse in the blink of an eye - a good antidote for hubris. Robert 50 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 5:16am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? There are many points to consider >here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit >because we compare our present good situation with >others in difficult circumstances then we can refect >that the situation could reverse in the blink of an >eye - a good antidote for hubris. >Robert With the right conditions anything can happen. And the faintest form of mana can be eradicated only by the Arahanta, so I guess some degree of conceit is always involved. It could very well be hubris as much as low self esteem. Amara ______________________________________________________ 51 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 10:58pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes, Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful. Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm reminded in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with him....attachment! Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time! Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first we were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the airport another day later when the path results came in. No change in the akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime. Thanks again Sarah >Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather >callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a >disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full >picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are >enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta >could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be >president of the world but if they don't develop >understanding they are headed towards future pain. >Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but >are increasing their confidence in kamma and >conditions -their future is bright. >All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess >lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should >not be surprised if their situation changes >dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use >kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people. > >Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it >may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the >attention of a few. >Robert >__________________________________________________ 52 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 8:04pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? Alan, Welcome to the list! And thanks for your provocative posting! Here are my thoughts. >Do you think his speech is wrong speech? The fact that what was said seems in accordance with the dhamma as taught does not make it right speech. There may be no understanding at any meaningful level. There may be wrong view (belief in kamma together with the idea of a soul, as held by some religions). There may be conceit or other akusula motive. As I recall, one of the attributes of right speech is that it tends to harmony among people, is non-divisive. Was this the case here? I was going to add a bit about knowing the appropriate thing to say at the appropriate time (timely speech), but I see that Sarah has already mentioned that. Reminds me of a time I went to visit a colleague who was terminally ill in hospital with prostate cancer. I tried to give some useful reminders; I mentioned the inevitability of death. He told me thanks, but save it! >The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree? They probably mean that if it's newsworthy, they'll publish it, regardless of the religion of the speaker. So if the speaker had made a similar remark but said that it was God's will, they would still have published it. >I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to >The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the >buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree? Of course not. But sometimes we have to accept that nothing we can do will have any effect. All the best. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 53 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:54pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack? Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone. Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second point. The Times leader article is wrong. "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has barely half-understood." Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said. This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes. Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They are attacking Buddhism. 'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the less disgraceful.' 'bizarre brand of spiritualism' Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'. To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe in. The Times are a religious persector aren't they? Best wishes, Alan 54 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:33pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:58:50 CST > > >Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes, >Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting >on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not >sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful. > >Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying >the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard >to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such >as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was >probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of >kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm >reminded in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends >said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just >wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with >him....attachment! Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time! > >Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in >August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health >for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first >we >were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of >days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not >worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the >airport another day later when the path results came in. No change in the >akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even >know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime. > >Thanks again >Sarah Thanks to you for the many useful reminders, Amara ______________________________________________________ 55 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of >these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a >Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this >quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject >and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone. > >Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the >wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly >put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this >statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second >point. >The Times leader article is wrong. > > "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of >their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental >doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has >barely half-understood." > >Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition >of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a >human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it >is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are >born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said. >This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better >headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used >something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred >quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes. > >Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of >place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They >are attacking Buddhism. > >'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the >less disgraceful.' >'bizarre brand of spiritualism' > >Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'. >To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe >in. > > >The Times are a religious persector aren't they? > > >Best wishes, Alan It all reminds me of Rosan's remark about 'taking things out of context' and its being 'a true journalistic behavior' or something in that order. Amara ______________________________________________________ 56 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:16am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? Alan, so, ok. we all agree that the press misquote(even 'quality papers'!) and go for sensational headings...as Jonothan said, even if it had been so and so says'According to God...' it would have been printed if it helped make a good story and sold papers. But it's not just the press... people distort the teachings of the Buddha all the time out of ignorance or for any number of motives...Why do we mind, is the question here? Why do you mind what the Times writes? We cannot be responsible for what everyone says and what about our motives and cittas when we feel strongly and mind about others' ignorance and kilesa? Last year i was with a group of girlfreinds doing yoga. One friend asked another who is a keen 'Buddhist' meditator and follower of Chinese and Tibetan teachings about the Path. She was giving some strange explanations and as I hadn't been consulted, I kept quiet but became more and more exasperated. At a certain point when the questioner was told she had to get special approval and pass a test before she could study the abhidhamma, I just lost my cool and shouted out 'absolute nonsense'. My display of dosa (aversion) was the problem I realised afterwards, however much I wanted to justify it! Sarah By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check w/them first? > >Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of >these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a >Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this >quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject >and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone. > >Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the >wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly >put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this >statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second >point. >The Times leader article is wrong. > > "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of >their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental >doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has >barely half-understood." > >Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition >of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a >human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it >is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are >born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said. >This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better >headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used >something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred >quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes. > >Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of >place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They >are attacking Buddhism. > >'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the >less disgraceful.' >'bizarre brand of spiritualism' > >Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'. >To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe >in. > > >The Times are a religious persector aren't they? > > >Best wishes, Alan > ______________________________________________________ 57 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 9:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences Amara wrote: >If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest' >impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise, >except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent >feelings right away. >K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa >meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us. By chance I came across the following passage in Nina's "Cetasikas": The Paramatta Manjusa, a commentary on the Visuddhimagga, explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense... By way of simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible impact on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The ‘impact’ of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysesnse. (ends) This seems to be along the same lines as Khun Sujin's reference to the mahabhuttarupas. For those who didn't know, "Cetasikas" is now beautifully published in book form by Alan. I am reading through it again, with much benefit. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 58 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 1:59pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from >this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check >w/them first? For me it's fine too! Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American trip. I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL ARTICLES for the poor thing, please! Amara ______________________________________________________ 59 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 5:20pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Newsletter We have had a number of new members join this past week. Welcome. We look forward to seeing a posting from you soon! A couple of tips. - You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives. - Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message posted to the list as it is posted. This is the default setting. The setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a single posting. You may find this more convenient. (Some members even prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.) If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to suggest that they send a (blank) message to Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an invitation from the list. By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements. I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting. Jonothan (Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct) ______________________________________________________ 60 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:27pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter >- You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives. >By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting >advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements. Jonothan, How does one access the archives again? It would be much more compact without commercials. Amara 61 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 9:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter > Jonothan, > How does one access the archives again? > It would be much more compact without commercials. > Amara Amara, It's easy. Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in. You will need to supply your email account and the password you gave when first registering. Then you should be able to see the group's list. If not, click on the "My space" button. Open the list and go to "Messages". You can also post messages or replies from the list. The list is also where you can change the settings for your subscription. Happy browsing. Jonothan 62 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:54am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163 She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back? --------------------- At 09:20 15/1/00 GMT, you wrote: >We have had a number of new members join this past week. Welcome. We look >forward to seeing a posting from you soon! > >A couple of tips. > >- You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives. > >- Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message >posted to the list as it is posted. This is the default setting. The >setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a >single posting. You may find this more convenient. (Some members even >prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.) > >If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to >suggest that they send a (blank) message to > >Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an >invitation from the list. > >By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting >advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements. > >I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting. > >Jonothan > >(Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct) > >______________________________________________________ 63 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:58am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter Is man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be so? What does it mean 'self'? ------------------------------------------ At 05:14 15/1/00 -0800, you wrote: > >> Jonothan, >> How does one access the archives again? >> It would be much more compact without commercials. >> Amara > > >Amara, > >It's easy. Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in. You will need to >supply your email account and the password you gave when first >registering. Then you should be able to see the group's list. If not, >click on the "My space" button. Open the list and go to "Messages". > >You can also post messages or replies from the list. > >The list is also where you can change the settings for your >subscription. > >Happy browsing. > >Jonothan > > 64 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter >Is man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be >so? >What does it mean 'self'? The self is called atta in Pali and it is the distinction between what everyone takes as I or me and the rest of the world (people, all objects and animals). In that sense one is 'selfish' all the time because one has never known, throughout the infinity of lifetimes one had been born that one (or any other being) is only a conglomerate of citta, cetasika and rupa, not the 'self'. Which is of course unrational, but beyond the reasoning of those who had never heard the Buddha's teachings. Amara ______________________________________________________ 65 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:39am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter >Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email >is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163 >She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in >meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest >in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back? Welcome to the group, your friends are most welcome too. You can try sending her the subscription e-mail address or ask Jonothan to do so. Glad you finally made it on the list and to see your questions! Amara ______________________________________________________ 66 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:21pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self >Is man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be >so? >What does it mean 'self'? Interesting questions. "Self" can have many different meanings. In the broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or being, as distinct from other persons or beings. It has this meaning in the terms "selfish" or "self-interest". Are people like this all the time? If there is selfishness or self-interest in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more or less the same. Is it rational? Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance of the true nature of realities. In this sense, it is indeed rational. We are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance! ______________________________________________________ 67 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 10:55am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan on atta. May I ask more? Is self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate or social determinism? Or both? ------------------------------- At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote: >>Is man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be >>so? >>What does it mean 'self'? > >Interesting questions. "Self" can have many different meanings. In the >broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or >being, as distinct from other persons or beings. It has this meaning in the >terms "selfish" or "self-interest". > >Are people like this all the time? If there is selfishness or self-interest >in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more >or less the same. > >Is it rational? Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance >of the true nature of realities. In this sense, it is indeed rational. We >are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that >participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance! > > > 68 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 1:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self dear Khun Tananarong, It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The good news is that there is an end, it can be eradicated Robert --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: > > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan > on atta. May I ask > more? Is self-interest constant all the time from > the time of Lord Buddha > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of > consumerism? Is it innate > or social determinism? Or both? > ------------------------------- > > > At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote: > >>Is man always selfish or self-interest all the > time? Is it rational to be > >>so? > >>What does it mean 'self'? > > > >Interesting questions. "Self" can have many > different meanings. In the > >broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this > (ie, our own) person or > >being, as distinct from other persons or beings. > It has this meaning in the > >terms "selfish" or "self-interest". > > > >Are people like this all the time? If there is > selfishness or self-interest > >in our own life, we can assume that other people's > experience will be more > >or less the same. > > > >Is it rational? Selfishness and ideas of a self > arise beause of ignorance > >of the true nature of realities. In this sense, it > is indeed rational. We > >are all very ignorant of what is happening right > now, and hopeful that > >participation in this group will be a condition for > a little less ignorance! 69 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 5:52pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Amara's Dhammastudy website >Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as >copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished >adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the >latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American >trip. I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL >ARTICLES for the poor thing, please! >Amara For those of you who do not yet know, Amara has put together a comprehensive DhammaStudy website (in Thai and English)which carries many of Nina'a articles and other interesting snippets. Great graphics, too. It can be found at http://www.dhammastudy.com./ ______________________________________________________ 70 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 7:45pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth and control Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was regaling her with stories of my trip to India. Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow avoid New Zealand”. She immediately said “no choice , it depends on conditions”. Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so obvious as be almost trite. It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this. A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was really worried about dying suddenly and not being aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of misunderstanding. Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate. These ideas come about because of the belief in control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is an entity. We may not have deep understanding of Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our daily life. The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept that the mind was changing and that it depended on conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not even in theory. It was after learning about the elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense. Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time and is then replaced by another eyesense. The conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its brief existence are themselves conditioned by other equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends on the eyesense as well as other ephemeral conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many more conditions but I think this illustrates the point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could control it? It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn. Conditions will take care of all that by themselves. Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves” out of the picture. Robert __________________________________________________ 71 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 8:22pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] List News Posts to the list Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages and replies. This makes it easier to follow different threads, or to browse the archives later. For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to scroll through large chunks of text. Invitations to join the list If you would know anyone who would like to join the group, please tell them to send a (blank) message to New members Welcome. If you haven't yet posted to the list, please consider a short Hello. Other members would like to know who you are. Host website To access the list on the eGroups website, go to and log in. You will need to supply your email account and the password you gave when first registering. Then you should be able to see the group's list. If not, click on the "My space" button Archives To browse old messages in the group's archives, follow the instructions under "Host website" above. Open the list and go to "Messages". Your subscription You can change the way you receive postings from the list. Follow the instructions under "Host website" above. Go to "group info", then click on "Modify Subscription". Links Members Amara and Alan both manage websites with heaps of materials and information and stunning pics. Visit them at www.dhammastudy.com www.zolag.co.uk We hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting. Jonothan & Sarah (Any questions on the above, contact Jonothan at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233234237093202015199065056124253239105139218183041 ) 72 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 4:59am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self this is a somewhat frivolous question... Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had some excellent results.. BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the 'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their 'wrong' view?? Sarah >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self >Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST) > > > >dear Khun Tananarong, >It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round >of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The >good news is that there is an end, it can be >eradicated >Robert >--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: > > > > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan > > on atta. May I ask > > more? Is self-interest constant all the time from > > the time of Lord Buddha > > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of > > consumerism? Is it innate > > or social determinism? Or both? > > ------------------------------- > > 73 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:05am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self K.Thanon, my answers to yr qus. > >Is man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Most the time )Is it rational to be so? It's natural >What does it mean 'self'? Ignorance Sarah ______________________________________________________ 74 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 3:16pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self >Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the >tumour >on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had >some excellent results.. > >BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be >successful, >you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said>to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a >belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy >Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the >'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their >'wrong' view?? > >Sarah Again, I think it all depends on the individual's accumulations, and as with all our accumulations, one never knows (except for the Buddha) which ones are going to produce their results next. I believe one should always do the best one can in any situation, for example a friend said that if one believed in kamma then one wouldn't help anyone because what happened is their Kamma. I said we can never know if it is also their kamma that we happened by to help them (another of the rare occasions for karuna to arise, as opposed to just metta). In this case one never knows what the result may be, and since it doesn't hurt anyone to try, I say why not? If it really works, it certainly wouldn't depend on anyone's belief, logically, though it may emotionally. I've seen it on French TV some time ago, it was really impressive. I really hope it works for you. Please tell us after! Amara ______________________________________________________ 75 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:34am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control Why worry so much bout next life? dhamma is here through our six doors of perception. When K. Sujin was here in ChiangMai a few years ago, they discussed about life in a higher plane so long. I asked K. Sujin why not now and here? We have had so much to ABSORB the idea of it. They stopped talking about next life. Moreover, the fault is in ourself , not in the stars or others. ---------------------------------- At 03:45 17/1/00 -0800, you wrote: > > >Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was >regaling her with stories of my trip to India. >Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and >India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow >avoid New Zealand”. >She immediately said “no choice , it depends on >conditions”. >Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so >obvious as be almost trite. >It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this. >A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing >mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully >conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should >be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of >conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my >first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was >really worried about dying suddenly and not being >aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be >avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of >misunderstanding. >Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in >America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said >he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be >sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate. >These ideas come about because of the belief in >control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into >existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is >an entity. We may not have deep understanding of >Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a >few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it >ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through >wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our >daily life. >The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon >first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept >that the mind was changing and that it depended on >conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not >even in theory. It was after learning about the >elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that >the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense. >Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex >set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time >and is then replaced by another eyesense. The >conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its >brief existence are themselves conditioned by other >equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends >on the eyesense as well as other ephemeral >conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many >more conditions but I think this illustrates the >point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could >control it? >It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into >the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to >become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether >we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn. >Conditions will take care of all that by themselves. >Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves” >out of the picture. >Robert > 76 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:48am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self It is the power of 'positive' thinking. Endophine[I hope I spell it right] is then released in the brain to make him happy. As a result, he is stronger to have more anti-body. Buddhism and science can go together. With the advance of science and technology, we now know more about our body and 'mind'. Jonothan is better off with the 'mind' blank. Allow the body to do its job as it is. Good luck, Jonothan. ------------------------------------ At 20:59 17/1/00 CST, you wrote: >this is a somewhat frivolous question... > >Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour >on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had >some excellent results.. > >BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, >you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said >to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a >belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy >Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the >'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their >'wrong' view?? > >Sarah > >>From: Robert Kirkpatrick >>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self >>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> >>dear Khun Tananarong, >>It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round >>of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The >>good news is that there is an end, it can be >>eradicated >>Robert >>--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: >> > >> > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan >> > on atta. May I ask >> > more? Is self-interest constant all the time from >> > the time of Lord Buddha >> > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of >> > consumerism? Is it innate >> > or social determinism? Or both? >> > ------------------------------- 77 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:20am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism Is self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha >more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate >or social determinism? Or both? I don't know much about economic theories, but with or without 'consumerism' man has always acted selfishly in regards with the 'world' around him. Geologists and archeologists will tell you that the Sahara along the Nile, the Arabian desert along the Mesopotamia and even the greater part of the Gobi were once fertile forests and fields cultivated by ancient 'civilizations', then they probably did what we still do today: cut the trees, make war that wipe out or displace farmers so that the desert gained and covered the land. Every where man has been, the desert follows, but there probably always people who were fighting to do 'the right thing' but without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no real 'unselfishness' and ultimately that is a very private affair. Amara ______________________________________________________ 78 From: shinlin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:44am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help Dear Friends, Hello !! Recently, I had a discussion with Robert though the mail and had a discussion with Ivan last Saturday. I have realized one thing, Dhamma discussion is extremely important, without an exchange of view, we usually will be stuck on our own Ignorant MIND. It just goes in circles, unable to get out and know that everything is just Nama and Rupa. Thankyou Robert and Ivan for their views. metta, Shin 79 From: shinlin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:49am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:41 PM Subject: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese Dear Friends, I have been thinking of translating Archan Sujin's book into Chinese since last year. But I have never been about to start because I did know how to translate it. If I have not asked Khun Amara ( Pi Joy ) for advise, then until today the first sentence of the first page will never be able to be translated. What happened was, I have been looking for specific Chinese word to fit every Pali word or the meaning of Dhamma, which sometimes, the word can never cover its meaning like in Pali. But I never realized it until Pi Joy told me this key problem that no language can cover as much as Pali so we have to explain its meaning in more detail manner in our own language. But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or Cambodian. I sincerely ask for your metta to consider about this matter so the translation can be done for the right way. Therefore if would be very much appreciated if you can give your highest comment and suggests to me for the purpose of keeping the Dhamma Study. Thankyou. with metta, Shiau-in( Shin ) Lin 80 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese 81 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:37pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese Dear Shin, Your modesty about your understanding is itself a good indication that you are ready to proceed. Joy's advice is very sound. And you have the advantage of being able to read both Thai and English versions of the book. Does kwan know Chinese ?- he could help too. I sincerely hope that you will start this important translation work. You could help to bring true Dhamma back to China. Thanks for the comments about the usefulness of discussion - as you say we easily get stuck in our own view and discusing with others can highlight our sticking places. Robert __________________________________________________ 82 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:42pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism Excellent answer Khun amara. Robert --- > > > I don't know much about economic theories, but with > or without 'consumerism' > man has always acted selfishly in regards with the > 'world' around him. > > without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no > real 'unselfishness' > and ultimately that is a very private affair. > Amara > 83 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 8:30am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese > But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my >understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to >translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one >who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of >what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I >have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese >people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the >Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or >Cambodian. As Robert has said, you are much too modest about your understanding of the dhamma, and I must add that you are very lucky indeed to be just a phone call or a drive away from Khun Sujin so you can always check anything you're not sure of with her. On minor points I'm sure this group would all be willing to do what we can so you can help such a vast community, so many Chinese readers all over the world! (Everyone who knows my hopping, skipping and jumping brain will see that I am already wishing for a Chinese section for our website!!!) Anumodana with your kusala citta, Amara ______________________________________________________ 84 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 10:20am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control >It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into >the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to >become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether >we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn. >Conditions will take care of all that by themselves. >Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves” >out of the picture. >Robert Understanding, even at a beginning level, the truth of no-control is truly liberating. As you say, this seems paradoxical given that we are all innately control freaks to a greater or lesser degree. Of course, we should not lose sight of the fact that the tendency to control still lurks, adopting ever more subtle form! Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 85 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 10:56am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self >In this case one >never knows what the result may be, and since it doesn't hurt anyone to >try, >I say why not? >If it really works, it certainly wouldn't depend on anyone's belief, >logically, though it may emotionally. >I've seen it on French TV some time ago, it was really impressive. I >really >hope it works for you. Please tell us after! >Amara Amara, The actual treatment (last night) was somewhat less dramatic than expected. More like psychic massge than psychic surgery. I have a fairly open mind about it, having experienced similar healers in Indonesia and Thailand many years ago. As you point out, the effectiveness or otherwise depends ultimately on one's kamma. Thinking of this gives me a healthy attitude towards the treatment - neither unduly hopeful nor sceptical. The practitioners believe that the outcome of any treatment is largely influenced by the patient's mental attitude, and they tend to talk of this in terms of 'faith', but I prefer to think of it in terms of confidence in cause and result. No marked results yet! I'll let you know if anything happens. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 86 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 11:01am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Psychic healing >It is the power of 'positive' thinking. Endophine[I hope I spell it right] >is then released in the brain to make him happy. As a result, he is >stronger to have more anti-body. Buddhism and science can go together. With >the advance of science and technology, we now know more about our body and >'mind'. Jonothan is better off with the 'mind' blank. Allow the body to do >its job as it is. >Good luck, Jonothan. Tanarong Boosting the body's anti-immune system is one of the things this kind of treatment is supposed to do. Thanks for your good wishes Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 87 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 11:28am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control > > Understanding, even at a beginning level, the truth > of no-control is truly > liberating. As you say, this seems paradoxical > given that we are all > innately control freaks to a greater or lesser > degree. > > Of course, we should not lose sight of the fact that > the tendency to control > still lurks, adopting ever more subtle form! > > Jonothan Thanks for the great reminder! Robert______________________________________________________ 88 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 4:00am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium,rebirth and control! Robert, I was reminded of yr interesting comments below when reading an article in the paper today.. Apparently large numbers of dying people were able to 'postpone' their deaths to the first week in January to see in the new millenium. In both London and New York there were record low numbers passing away in the last week of last year and record hign numbers (about 50%increase) passing away in the first week of this year. it reminded me of Jonothan's father who seemed to wait for the auction of his house before passing away and saving J's mum lots of unpleasant complications. Conventionally, it seems like people can have a say in selecting and choosing the time, but from a dhamma point of view, we could probably just say that the strong wish (attachment usually I'd think, but some kusala in some cases such as consideration for the family) can be a condition in determining the time.... This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness (citta) '...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. When it produces rupa it also conditions that rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....' I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions are at play here and you or someone else may add useful comments on others... Any comments anyone? Sarah p.s. Alan- our copy of The Conditionality of Life is dated Jun90. would you let me know if this has been updated? ...>A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing >mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully >conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should >be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of >conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my >first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was >really worried about dying suddenly and not being >aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be >avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of >misunderstanding. >Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in >America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said >he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be >sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate. >These ideas come about because of the belief in >control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into >existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is >an entity. We may not have deep understanding of >Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a >few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it >ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through >wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our >daily life. >The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon >first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept >that the mind was changing and that it depended on >conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not >even in theory. It was after learning about the >elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that >the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense. >Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex >set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time >and is then replaced by another eyesense. The >conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its >brief existence are themselves conditioned by other >equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends >on the eyesense as well as other ephemeral >conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many >more conditions but I think this illustrates the >point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could >control it? >It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into >the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to >become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether >we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn. >Conditions will take care of all that by themselves. >Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves” >out of the picture. >Robert > ______________________________________________________ 89 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 10:12am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese Shin, Welcome to the list. I hear you had some difficulties getting on. I'm glad they have been resolved. Pinna (in Singapore) tells me she has encountered difficulty posting to the list. Anyone else with problems is welcome to contact me. Regarding your post- > But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my >understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to >translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one >who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of >what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I >have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese >people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the >Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or >Cambodian. It is natural to have such reservations. But will our understanding ever be as good as we think it should? Anyway, you have a choice as to the material you translate, so choose something that you feel comfortable with. It will all be new and unfamiliar to the target audience. It will be good to have something in Chinese to give to people here in Hong Kong. Good luck! Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 90 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 11:02am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium,rebirth and control! Sarah wrote- >This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions >and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have >physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness >(citta) > >'...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by >way of nutriment-condition. When it produces rupa it also conditions that >rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....' > >I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as >nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or >akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions >are at play here This is helpful. It helps us to distinguish between and understand what we have observed from our experience in life to be the case, on the one hand, and the idea some people have that one can choose the actual moment of death or the nature of the citta at that moment, on the other. Conventionally speaking, both are seen as a degree of control over the time of death. But in dhamma terms they are quite different. Thinking that death can be postponed by sheer willpower does not necessarily involve wrong view. Trying to manipulate the moment of death or the cittas at that time so as to produce a certain outcome surely would. Jonothan to ensure the best postpone death ______________________________________________________ 91 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2000 2:57am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sense door experiences I have been reflecting on the quote below posted by Jonothan some time ago and have found the analogy of the contact between two pieces of cotton-wool to describe the impact of the sense objects on the relevant 'senses' very helpful. It's been a condition for moments of calmness before I fall asleep when I reflect that our obsessions with the objects experienced thr' these sense doorways stems from this 'cotton-wool' contact accompanied by indifferent feeling. The other day, however, when I was posting a message to this list, any moments of calmness or any kusala were short-lived. I only had ten minutes before I needed to go out for a Tai Chi class. I heard a fax trying to come in on the machine next to the computer and when it made a strange noise, I looked up and saw that part of the fax machine had been broken and the paper couldn't release properly. Immeditately I remembered my helper had cleaned the machine that day and was overwhelmed with dosa and stories about how she must have broken it. With this dosa I finished posting my message and went out. I came back an hour or so later and was still in a bad mood, obsessed with the story which had started with the sounds and visible objects...!In fact, I was still worrying about it when I woke up the next morning.. '....Visual consciousness, your reverences, arises because of eye and visual object: the meeting of the three is sensory impingement (phassa); feelings are because of sensory impingement; what one feels one perceives; what one perceives one reasons about; what one reasons about obsesses one; what obsesses one is the origin of the number of perceptions and obsessions which assail a man in regard to visual object cognisable by tyhe eye, past, future, present.... MLS (1,no18, Disc of the Honey Ball) Sarah >By chance I came across the following passage in Nina's "Cetasikas": > >The Paramatta Manjusa, a commentary on the Visuddhimagga, explains why >kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant >feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is >the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense... >By way of simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible >impact on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the >relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it >with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because >of >the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other >panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces >of >cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. >The ‘impact’ of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared >with >the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysesnse. >(ends) > >This seems to be along the same lines as Khun Sujin's reference to the >mahabhuttarupas. > >For those who didn't know, "Cetasikas" is now beautifully published in book >form by Alan. I am reading through it again, with much benefit. > >Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 92 From: shinlin Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 2:30pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipattana Dear Friends, Recently, I have encountered some experience which made me understand the word of PANNA and ATTA. Then the final question was if Satipattana happens, then at that moment, there will only be the separation of NAMA and RUPA ? Then, I called some dhamma friends including Ivan, and found that Satipattana does not only happen with only NAMA and RUPA but it also recognize NAMA. Then I finalized my question which is when Satipattana happens, Panna will recogized the other Cetasika in a Citta because only one Citta happens only at one moment and Satipattana happens only in one moment. Finally, I asked Archan Santi who gave me the answer that ONLY PANNA recognized the every things. This means that WE really have to accumulate the right understanding of Dhamma to be about to really understand the nature of Paramatha Dhamma. Recently, I have realized that we are going into stories of life and all the happening through the 6 mind doors that we completely forgot the SAJA, the truth of Dhamma or the teaching of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. This just a sharing of my thought. best regards, Shin 93 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 4:25pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Giving money to monks and vegetarianism Sarah_ Thanks for the amusing story relating abhidhamma to daily life Some of you might be intersted in a discussion I had about giving money to monks and vegetarianism. it is a little long so I put it as an attachment. Robert Attachment 39k (application/msword) From adhamma dana.doc 94 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 0:45pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: satipattana > Then, I called some dhamma friends including Ivan, and found that >Satipattana does not only happen with only NAMA and RUPA but it also >recognize NAMA. Shin, you obviously made a typo here, what did you mean to say? > Then I finalized my question which is when Satipattana happens, Panna >will recogized the other Cetasika in a Citta because only one Citta happens >only at one moment and Satipattana happens only in one moment. At the moment of satipattana there is already the beginning of the five-fold magga leading to the eightfold one which happens at the moments of respective levels of attainment. At the moment of sati when the aramana is clear, there is no lobha, dosa or moha (in other words, there are alobha, adosa and amoha cetasika arising), which makes it 'peaceful' from defilements, the eggakhata cetasica is focused on the characteristics of the aramana, and panna knows more about it, etc. These accompanied by, of the 52 cetasikas, excluding all the akusala, there would be at least the 13 annasamana-cetasika arising with it, in combination with any of the other 25 cetasika of the good side. They each do their own duties towards the accumulation of further panna and sati, which is why each moment of sati is so precious. You can refer to the different kinds of cetasikas in the Summary p.383, Appendix, 52 Types of Cetasika. Of course the cetasika of the bad side arise more often and they also accumulate for their side, depending on the degree of their weak or great strength. And since moha is the root of it all, knowledge is the most important factor towards the elimination or attenuation of the bad, it is vital to help people understand as much as possible, and I would like to anumodana again for your kusala cetana in translating this wonderful book into Chinese! ______________________________________________________ 95 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 26, 2000 6:41am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] paccaya Sarah wrote: Conventionally, it seems like people can have a say in selecting and choosing the time, but from a dhamma point of view, we could probably just say that the strong wish (attachment usually I'd think, but some kusala in some cases such as consideration for the family) can be a condition in determining the time.... This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness (citta) '...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by way of nutriment-condition. When it produces rupa it also conditions that rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....' I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions are at play here and you or someone else may add useful comments on others... I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the 'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only predictable to the Buddha. The computer for example is conceived on the basis of mathematical possibilities of the combinations of 1's and 0's in eight positions, (I hope I get it right, I was never good at math!) which gave millions of combinations. With 24 paccayas in any number of combinations, the possibilities seem to be mind boggling, no wonder with the number of kamma accumulated each second, each with different degrees of strength, some would take millions of lifetimes to be just right to produce their results. Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder what it was just now? Amara ______________________________________________________ 96 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 26, 2000 4:39pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya Dear Amara, A very difficult problem. How we understand this will affect our attitude to study and practice- in otherwords an important issue. You wrote "is it not > better to study the present > aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, > because once the instant has > fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and > we would have to wonder > what it was just now?" You wonder about this because you realise (correctly) that the various paccayas arise to make up each moment are so complex as to be impossible to directly insight. Indeed, such comprehensive knowledge is the province of Buddhas. I want to think about this and will try to compose something but I am a litttle busy at he moment so give me a few days. I am sure others have good comments too. Robert 97 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jan 27, 2000 4:07am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences Sarah wrote: I have been reflecting on the quote below posted by Jonothan some time ago and have found the analogy of the contact between two pieces of cotton-wool to describe the impact of the sense objects on the relevant 'senses' very helpful. It's been a condition for moments of calmness before I fall asleep when I reflect that our obsessions with the objects experienced thr' these sense doorways stems from this 'cotton-wool' contact accompanied by indifferent feeling. Sarah, I meant to ask K. Sujin about the order in which the Buddha refered to the senses last weekend but unfortunately the luncheon was canceled because she and her sister were between eye operations for their cataracts, the final one being yesterday. Apparently the first one on the 19th went quite well, she said that the doctor was very good. I will ask her about it when we next meet, Amara ______________________________________________________ 98 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 0:05am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Giving money to monks and vegetarianism Robert, I JUST got round to reading the discussion w/ Dr...re monks & vinaya....interesting & I'm sure yr comments will be useful & considered. I'm just reminded of when K.Sujin told me that the only reason people should become monks is because it is natural according to their accumulations and not because they think they will have more wisdom, more calm or other kusala. If one isn't able to follow the vinaya, one shouldn't become or remain a monk... Perhaps Dr... would like to join our group, so others can more easily hear and respond to his comments usefully? I admire your efforts! Sarah > >Sarah_ Thanks for the amusing story relating >abhidhamma to daily life Some of you might be >intersted in a discussion I had about giving money to >monks and vegetarianism. it is a little long so I put >it as an attachment. >Robert > ______________________________________________________ 99 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 0:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences Amara, thanks for the update on K.S.'s cataracts..It also sounded to me when I was in Bkk that they were in good hands. When we were there someone thought they remembered K.S. saying she wouldn't seek medical help for health problems. I knew this was not right and a misunderstanding. Finding a good surgeon and having this surgery proves the point! pls give our best wishes to her & her sister....no hurry for the qu. By the way, even w'out being a 'believer', J's psychic surgery seems to have had some positive results...According to the acupuncturist he goes to, the tumour 'unrooted' after the visit...we're a little hopeful but very aware of the dangers of expectations! Detachment is most useful, but how few moments of upekkha there are (in my case anyway) in a day! Thanks for yr helpful comment before on this subject. Sarah >Sarah, >I meant to ask K. Sujin about the order in which the Buddha refered to the >senses last weekend but unfortunately the luncheon was canceled because she >and her sister were between eye operations for their cataracts, the final >one being yesterday. Apparently the first one on the 19th went quite well, >she said that the doctor was very good. >I will ask her about it when we next meet, >Amara >______________________________________________________ 100 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 28, 2000 5:41pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences >When we were there someone thought they remembered K.S. saying she wouldn't >seek medical help for health problems. I knew this was not right and a >misunderstanding. Finding a good surgeon and having this surgery proves the >point! >By the way, even w'out being a 'believer', J's psychic surgery seems to >have >had some positive results...According to the acupuncturist he goes to, the >tumour 'unrooted' after the visit...we're a little hopeful but very aware >of >the dangers of expectations! Detachment is most useful, but how few moments >of upekkha there are (in my case anyway) in a day! Sarah and Jonothan, I'm so glad to hear about the improvement, do keep us posted! About K. S., the person who told that you must have slightly misunderstood, because everytime she needs to, she always seeks medical attention, it's only that she never goes for check ups and such... But considering that Charupan went every six months and still has cancer that had eluded examinations for about four years (being just behind a rib, it seems), one must admit what must happen must happen, it really depends on our past kamma. Amara ______________________________________________________ 101 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 2:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya >From: "amara chay" >I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the >'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only >predictable to the Buddha. ...... >Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present >aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has >fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder >what it was just now? Amara, Are you suggsting it is not useful to reflect on aspects of the teaching? This does not seem right! Of course, it is always best to study the present aramana. But such study is not something that happens in place of thinking and other mundane activities. And reflection on the teachings is one condition for the development of awareness. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 102 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 2:50pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= >I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a >Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this >quote which is Buddhist. ..... >Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of >place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They >are attacking Buddhism. >.... >The Times are a religious persector aren't they? Alan, I have just read that Hoddle has been engaged as coach of Southampton. Does it follow that the powers that be in Southampton have more religous tolerance than the rest of the football community (and The Times!)? Jonothan PS A message sent by Sarah to your email add has bounced back. Has there been any change? ______________________________________________________ 103 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 1:37pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya >>Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present >>aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant >>has >>fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder >>what it was just now? > >Amara, >Are you suggsting it is not useful to reflect on aspects of the teaching? >This does not seem right! Of course, it is always best to study the >present >aramana. But such study is not something that happens in place of thinking >and other mundane activities. And reflection on the teachings is one >condition for the development of awareness. Not at all, all Dhamma of the good side help one another! What I meant was, when one knows all the different paccaya and how they opperate, it has a humbling effect (at least on me!) and I personally would never try to speculate on which ones of my past kamma produced which results, throughout the incalculable lifetimes I have lived . I don't even know what I was my last rebirth, how could I speculate on which result is from which kamma? All I know is everything proves to me that I have lived before and must have done so not only once, that all this is the result of the 24 paccaya, (and this because I have studied the teachings, I certainly didn't discover the paccayas myself!) but I refuse to wonder about each instant because to me it seems a waste of time... I would much rather be studying the present as much as I can- even moments of thought can have sati interposing the stream of thoughts and bhavanga, etc. But then that's my accumulations, I suppose different people have different habits, so long as it helps to increase the accumulation of panna, it is always preferable to other things! Amara ______________________________________________________ 104 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Sun Jan 30, 2000 7:47pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack? >Alan, >I have just read that Hoddle has been engaged as coach of Southampton. Does >it follow that the powers that be in Southampton have more religous >tolerance than the rest of the football community (and The Times!)? >Jonothan >PS A message sent by Sarah to your email add has bounced back. Has there >been any change? Dear Jonothan, Good question! Maybe I will ask Southampton press office this and publish their reply. As far as I know there is nothing wrong with my e-mail address. Best wishes, Alan 105 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jan 30, 2000 4:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] new page Hi everyone, Just a note to tell you we have added a new section of Q&A to the DhammaStudy.com, with five of the questions from Tanarong, thanks to T. for your questions and to everyone who commented on them! The front page has the wonderful shot from the newly repaired Hubble, by NASA, of the exploding Eskimo, which will also happen to our sun when it goes out billions of years from now. Please comment on any of the above! Amara ______________________________________________________ 106 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 1:50am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has alzheimers disease (age memory loss) and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and rocks her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all been a very tough experience for Gabi.... I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her mother in the States too. It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one isn't necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier in terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where this duty is expected and appreciated. But that sounds like a generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are not appreciated... I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up to and not realistic about our limits. But what are these limits? What is failure? I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful for those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How about a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one? metta, Sarah Gabi & Pinna- hope you don't mind the mention.. Gabi...hope you get a computer or internet provider VERY SOON! Do they have internet cafes in yr town? S. ______________________________________________________ 107 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 1:59am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Another 'dilemma'! I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said they were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to disagree, was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is the best way to help at these times? Silence? Sarah ______________________________________________________ 108 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Feb 2, 2000 7:22pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings >Another 'dilemma'! >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said they >were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to >disagree, was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was >attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is >the best way to help at these times? Silence? > >Sarah Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many great disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in Dhamma and not any particular individual. As far I know this would also be in Tibetan texts. Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or layman unless what they said conformes to his teachings. Suttas of the above can be found in Tipitaka and they are reasonable aren't they? Some 'Buddhists' believe you can become enlightened by swimming in the Ganges! Thirdly we live at the time of the break up of Buddhism where even Theravada monks speak incorrectly on the teachings, so we have to be diligent and study the teachings very carefully. You could explain these points to your friend, but only if they will listen.Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by attacking wrong view and I do not see any way around this. Lastly you could give them a copy of zolag's latest book 'Taking Refuge in Buddhism' by Sujin to be published in March and sponsored by Robert! >I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful for >those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the >attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How about >a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one? Each moment is Dukkha, nobody can escape this truth. When we 'like' certain situations, then we must dislike certain situations. Each moment is anatta, we cannot contol situations. Each moment is anicca. The nice situation must change. Diffucult dilemmas or situations are the test of our kusala. Best wishes, Alan 109 From: amara chay Date: Wed Feb 2, 2000 2:39pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents Hi everyone, I think this is a very profound and complex problem which does concern everybody, since we were all born by someone into being as we are now. It seems that no one can appreciate their parents enough, because somehow the instinct is for love or protection or whatever is to descend from generatiion to generation: most animals are extemely conscientious of their young, they can kill great preys to feed these helpless things they have to avoid stepping to keep alive, with tremendous needs to be fed and kept warm and clean. In Thailand there is a saying that a parent's love is like water that always flows downhill, from the grandparents to the parents, from the parents to the children, and from them to the grandchildren, etc. The instinct of the parents is always to protect the young, in nature as well as in human behavior, the older people in some cultures are expected to remove themselves from the struggle of life, like the Eskimos in the old days. It is because the Buddha teaches us that one's parents are like an arahanta to us that we can fully appreciate the efforts our parents put up in giving us birth and keeping us alive until we could more or less fend for ourselves, especially for those like myself who have never had any children. And I think most children expect everything from their parents, first as their due and later in signs of approval or understanding. Sometimes what we expect might not be so reasonable, at least to them. Or it might be beyond their comprehension. Perhaps what we need to do is to imitate them in some respects, when we were young, they probably had similar problems but they cared for us anyway, whether anyone appreciates it or not. There are no longer any arahanta nowadays and I think it is fortunate for those of us who still have our parents to be able to accumulate kusala by doing all we can for them the way one would like to do for an arahanta, there are only rare occasions for karuna in daily life. And once one does what one can in a given situation, there would not be a question of failure because it also depends on our parents' kamma how the results will turn out. Some professionals are paid to take care of the elderly and infirm, but are not the compensations infinitely higher when one can do good deed to the arahanta, whether one knows it or not, or even less importantly, whether others appreciate it or not? It sounds a bit selfish, but it is true, and also good for your parents because how can anyone really care about them as much as you do, even if they are well paid to do it? The best one could do is of course to help them understand the dhamma, but as it depends on their accumulations, sometimes that is impossible; my own mother began to study with K. Sujin before I did, but my father, who passed away nearly ten years ago, never had a dhamma discussion with us, when he read an article I wrote about thirty years ago, he made editorial notes on the margins! (He was a King's scholar and the first Thai to obtain a master's degree at MIT) He held over twenty possitions, was head of the charity committee for the blind and several academic boards when he passed away, but thought he knew all the dhamma already from the rote recitals in his school days. Maybe wherever he is now he can better appreciate the dhamma, but for us, the time is now, and as the dhamma of the good side help each other, caring for our parents seem one of the best ways to accumulate the right conditions, by doing the best we can and leaving the rest to the individual kamma accumulations. I think that is what I will try to do, at least. Amara >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these >postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few >years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has alzheimers >disease (age memory loss) and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and >rocks >her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all >been >a very tough experience for Gabi.... > >I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her >mother in the States too. > >It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's >understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one isn't >necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier in >terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where >this duty is expected and appreciated. But that sounds like a >generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of >attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are >not appreciated... > >I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my >parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became >alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional >failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up to >and not realistic about our limits. But what are these limits? What is >failure? > >I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful >for >those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the >attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? ______________________________________________________ 110 From: amara chay Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 6:04am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings >Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 17:59:40 CST > > >Another 'dilemma'! >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said >they >were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to >disagree, was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was >attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is >the best way to help at these times? Silence? > >Sarah I think the truth is very valuable, even if you don't realize that it is so at the moment, there might be times when you recognize that you have heard that before, and it is just that much easier to accept in the end. In this case one day it might become clearer to your friend that the DL isn't always right and then she might realize that she had heeard it somewhere before. Of course the very fact that there is a DL shows how much parts of the teachings have been ignored, since the Buddha had attained parinibbana, how could he be reborn? Being based on this belief, the entire teaching is a bit 'off'. You might remind her that the Buddha taught us never to believe anything without careful consideration, in fact it is our duty to do so. Amara ______________________________________________________ 111 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:03am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents >I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my >parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became >alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional >failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than >we're>really up >to and not realistic about our limits. But what are these >limits? What is >failure? >metta, Sarah Our limit is the maximum drive we are capable of to fulfill our lobha. And failure is dosa, due to unfulfilled lobha. Trying to do more than we’re really up to and not being realistic about our limits is due to excessive lobha. A very common state of mind, as are thoughts of failure of regret. Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika. Every moment has its characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating distracts from knowing the moment for what it is. If the moments of dosa or lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual understanding of their characteristics? The stories that cita/cetasiaka create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not. Is the answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story? Ivan ______________________________________________________ 112 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:07am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings >Another 'dilemma'! >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said >they >were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to >disagree, was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was >attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is >the best way to help at these times? Silence? >Sarah Investigate the characteristics of the moments, which are rising and falling away and creating the (distracting) story of the Dalai Lama, your friend and their views. Talk to your friend about these moments (realities) that are arising and falling away as you speak with her. To bring people to Dhamma we must introduce the Dhamma ( the ultimate realities of the moment) not question or refute their beliefs. Views about the Dalai Lama or God etc., (as to whether they are right or wrong, real or not real) will alienate many people and turn them away from investigating the Dhamma. Ivan ______________________________________________________ 113 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 1:59pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Sarah, I have experienced the problem of an emphasis on 'emptiness' and 'voidness' with people studying dhamma within Mahayana contexts; the only mediating point I have found is to try to return to the teaching of 'no self.' But, there is a question of how much one can really mediate without misrepresenting the teaching. It usually is a bit of a stalemate. However, as you seem to have found, it really does not help to say 'I disagree,' that makes it an authority issue. Maybe one or two comments or a question about what anatta really means, although it can lead to the false impression of agreement. No easy answer, no sure way. If there is then no evident receptiveness maybe silence is best. Pinna > ---------- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2000 7:59 AM > To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > > Another 'dilemma'! > I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's > > thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one > could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to > emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said > they > were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to > disagree, was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was > attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is > > the best way to help at these times? Silence? > > Sarah 114 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 2:45pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents As Amara said, it is a complex problem. One side of the issue is duty and duty seems clear. But how duty is carried out is also not clear. The other side is allowing someone to keep their independence and do things for themselves (as my mother still wants to); allow them to make their own decisions as long as they can. I have observed in my family (extended as well as immediate) decisions about health care left to the patient and it is not easy to judge when someone knows best for themselves; it is also not always easy to see the critical turning point in a person's ability to take care of herself / her own health (life-threatening crises are of course clear). Is it a duty to impose a change of lifestyle or a different approach to health? Other aspects are unfortunately mundane financial issues, also complex: the USA does not have a universal social welfare system, neither my mother nor I can be fully 'covered' (me not at all) and private insurance is out of the question. Either one of us could fall ill and wipe out both our life-savings in a few months. While I'm working here, I'm 'covered' to some extent and will not be such a potential burden on my mother's resources. There are home-care services available in her area, but only if a doctor recommends them can they be initiated. My mother is still 'too healthy' for those, but suffers from allergies and loss of strength and short-term memory which comes with age (not an illness yet), and her community of peers is decreasing. There are no purely commercial care services avialable within a 50 mile radius, and likewise not many job opportunities for me, well it would be a complete change of 'career.' And there is a lot of clinging to my study of Asian (Hindu and Buddhist) architecture! Ending a 'career' is also a dilemma! Pinna > ---------- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2000 7:50 AM > To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents > > We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these > postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few > > years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has > alzheimers > disease (age memory loss) and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and > rocks > her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all > been > a very tough experience for Gabi.... > > I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her > mother in the States too. > > It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's > understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one > isn't > necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier > in > terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where > this duty is expected and appreciated. But that sounds like a > generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of > attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are > > not appreciated... > > I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my > parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became > alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional > failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up > to > and not realistic about our limits. But what are these limits? What is > failure? > > I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful > for > those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the > attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How > about > a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one? > > metta, Sarah > > Gabi & Pinna- hope you don't mind the mention.. > Gabi...hope you get a computer or internet provider VERY SOON! Do they > have > internet cafes in yr town? S. > 115 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 2:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DL Sarah, I have experienced the problem of an emphasis on 'emptiness' and 'voidness' with people studying dhamma within Mahayana contexts; the only mediating point I have found is to try to return to the teaching of 'no self.' But, there is a question of how much one can really mediate without misrepresenting the teaching. It usually is a bit of a stalemate. However, as you seem to have found, it really does not help to say 'I disagree,' that makes it an authority issue. Maybe one or two comments or a question about what anatta really means, although it can lead to the false impression of agreement. No easy answer, no sure way. If there is then no evident receptiveness maybe silence is best. Pinna 116 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 3:16pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents I think when you have tried to do your best with good intention, it is not lobha is the limit. The limit is conditioned by many factors most of them outside your ability. Then you just let it go. Realization at that moment that it is only dhamma. I think Ivan's reply is pessimistic that he saw it as only lobha. With your good intention though without panna, it is still kusala citta. ------------------- At 21:03 3/2/00 PST, you wrote: >>I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my >>parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became >>alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional >>failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than >we're>really up >>to and not realistic about our limits. But what are these >limits? What is >>failure? >>metta, Sarah > >Our limit is the maximum drive we are capable of to fulfill our lobha. And >failure is dosa, due to unfulfilled lobha. >Trying to do more than we’re really up to and not being realistic about our >limits is due to excessive lobha. A very common state of mind, as are >thoughts of failure of regret. >Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due >to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika. Every moment has its >characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating >distracts from knowing the moment for what it is. If the moments of dosa or >lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual >understanding of their characteristics? The stories that cita/cetasiaka >create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not. Is the >answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is >or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story? >Ivan >______________________________________________________ > 117 From: amara chay Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:17pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents Hi Pinna, I'm glad to see your messages, do you remember when we last saw one another in CM? You know, K. Sujin is going to there again on the 22-26 this month, I will be staying at the same resort, will really miss you! I haven't been back up there since either. Wish you could come with us like last time, Amara ______________________________________________________ 118 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 1:53am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Great replies to the 2 topics & qus. I raised....many thanks to all those who responded....those who are THINKING about it, like Jonothan & Robert fro two, we look f/w to yr pearls of wisdom when they come! I liked this response below. Perhaps we can add further that not only do we like certain situations & thereby must dislike others, forgetting all about anatta...we like some namas & rupas & therefore must dislike other namas & rupas, all the time clinging to 'situations' and stories, in other words, always clinging to a 'self' or 'something'.. and yes, how true, as you & others have pointed out, our kusala is being tested all the time...as K.Sujin once pointed out to me, if we can't pass these easy tests, what will we do when the tests are really hard.. (or to that effect). Sarah > >Each moment is Dukkha, nobody can escape this truth. When we 'like' certain >situations, then we must dislike certain situations. Each moment is anatta, >we cannot contol situations. Each moment is anicca. The nice situation must >change. >Diffucult dilemmas or situations are the test of our kusala. > >Best wishes, Alan > > > 119 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 2:04am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Amara, as you say, s'times friends and family may 'react' in a negative way to hearing the dhamma, but later consider and accept it more. I think also that s'times when we try to explain to family or friends, our attachment to them can be a real hindrance...minding whether they understand, wanting them to understand more...so many akusala cittas between the few kusala cittas, even when talking about the dhamma. As Ivan reminds us, we need to ckeck those moments out! thanks for yr comments, Sarah > >I think the truth is very valuable, even if you don't realize that it is so >at the moment, there might be times when you recognize that you have heard >that before, and it is just that much easier to accept in the end. In this >case one day it might become clearer to your friend that the DL isn't >always >right and then she might realize that she had heeard it somewhere before. >Of course the very fact that there is a DL shows how much parts of the >teachings have been ignored, since the Buddha had attained parinibbana, how >could he be reborn? Being based on this belief, the entire teaching is a >bit 'off'. You might remind her that the Buddha taught us never to believe >anything without careful consideration, in fact it is our duty to do so. >Amara > > ______________________________________________________ 120 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 8:10pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan tthateachings dear group, I enjoyed reading all the pieces about parents and about conversations with those who cling to other ideas. I agree with khun Tannarong that intention is the main factor. Still, intention arises with both kusala and akusala cittas, sometimes we intend to do good but it is still akusala. Consider those fundamental Christians (I feel guilty using them as an example- they make too easy a target), who preach the gospel. There intention is to save us and bring us to heaven- but the citta is mostly lobha(attachment) associated with miccha-ditthi(wrongview). It is just the same with us at times -we think we are doing good but subtle clinging is there. This week I had discussions with different people. On monday there are 3 people who meet with me to discuss Dhamma. They are very interested in all aspects of buddhism and have strong confidence in kamma and its results. The discussion flows along so nicely. But what cittas are involved? There must be moments with sati and panna but also other moments with clinging. On that day we had a big lunch and afterwards I had a slight headache and thus there were moments of aversion too. Someone complimented me: It wasn't apparent but, for sure, cittas associated with conceit immediately arose. The next day a friend who is devotee of Tibetan Buddhism came to visit. We talked, as we usually do, about how to understand reality. He explained as he usually does, how studying is not so important: that it is by 'mind to mind transmission" that enlightenment occurs and so the real way to get understanding was to find an enlightened Guru and devote one's life to him. He has done this and is very satisfied with the results. This time I didn't feel like disagreeing, I just listened and asked a few questions. While he was talking reminders about the present moment kept coming up (not from him)- it was all very worthwhile. On Wednesday 2 mormon missionaries who know me well dropped by. We had a long discussion about what could be known about virtue beyond just faith in a teacher or religious text. This time I spoke a lot and they listened. We ended the meeting in agreement about many issues. I relate these meetings not as examples of how we should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main point would be that there are not too many rules to follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an accumulation that assists later understanding), at other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at the wrong time. We do our best depending on our understanding - the more we develop the more we can help others. Robert 121 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 9:20pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents I recall reading in a sutta that even of you were to carry your parents around on your shoulders for the rest of your life, you would not have repaid the debt owed to them. This is probably because they were the means by which we obtained rebirth in this life, and nurtured us to an age of self dependence. This does not mean we should try to act in this manner, or anything like it. There are many ways of giving support, the best of which is to help with the understanding of the dhamma. As one who has lived outside his parents' country for all but 2 of the past 25 years or so, I have come to realise that, like other forms of kusula, it is a matter of taking opportunities that arise and not having preconceived ideas of what I ought to be doing. There is the tendency to think we should be doing certain thinks, or at least something! I believe that it was in the Sigolavada Sutta that the Buddha set out the duties that various classes of lay people owe to each other. I recall reference to honouring the 6 directions. Can anybody fill us in on the meaning of this in the context of this discussion? ______________________________________________________ 122 From: amara chay Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 1:25pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Sarah wrote: >s'times friends and family may 'react' in a negative way >to hearing the dhamma, but later consider and accept it more. I think also >that s'times when we try to explain to family or friends, our attachment to >them can be a real hindrance...minding whether they understand, wanting >them >to understand more...so many akusala cittas between the few kusala cittas, >even when talking about the dhamma. As Ivan reminds us, we need to ckeck >those moments out! Sarah, I think you are right about our attachments to people who are close to us, which is one of the 'tests' you mentioned, of our own personal lobha and dosa. I was at Shin and Kwan's the other day when a lady who thought she had only a short time to live expressed her own fearlessness about her problems but her impatience in her own inability to teach someone she obviously cared for deeply the dhamma she values so much. Someone else told her that she should study for herself since she still hasn't helped herself yet, so how could she help another. I said I disagreed because I believe that one should do the best one can but the rest was up to the person's accumulations, which one can never know. I meant to say that one should do kusala without clinging to the results, good or bad, but then I was indirectly accused of being angry with the teacher of the dhamma (not K. Sujin, I hasten to add). I almost said that it always angers me if someone twisted the dhamma to his own taste, but then I realized he was partly right at least, I was angry at his speaking to the lady in that way, especially discouraging her from doing kusala as well as saying that she couldn't help herself. But that was all it took to arouse my stronger dosa, which did not help anything. I had said what I thought, that should have been enough. I was in fact clinging to the situation, the events, the 'story' of it all! It might have even made me too involved to make as good an argument as I should have... something I hope to have the presence of mind next time around! Amara ______________________________________________________ 123 From: amara chay Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 2:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2 more newsletters Hi everyone! We are trying at DhammaStudy.com to keep everyone up to date with K. Sujin's Dhamma discussions held outside Bkk (without other articles it's the best we can do!) as well as informed about her itinerary in the States (as arranged by Ell and her brother in law Jack) hence the 2 (in fact three counting the appendix) new pages. Please tell us if you find any errors, Amara 124 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 0:03am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless There is a lot in the suttas about leading the HOMELESS life. Does anyone know what this means? Also there was a disciple who never slept in the same place twice, what is the achievment of this? Cheers, Alan 125 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 10:02am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless Dear Alan, I remember there was one disciple who never even sat or laid down. He pracitised the dhutanga to the highest posible degree. He lived for only about one month after begining this practice but became an arahant. He did it as part of the middle way. He had accumulatons to do this. Others might copy him but they would be only copying the outward practice not the inward renunciation which is more important and not obvious. Re staying in one place - are we not attached to where we live. Constantly moving on means there is less time to accumulate possesions, friends and so on. Again it is the inward renunciation that is more important. Robert --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: > > There is a lot in the suttas about leading the > HOMELESS life. Does anyone > know what this means? Also there was a disciple who > never slept in the same > place twice, what is the achievment of this? > > Cheers, Alan 126 From: amara chay Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:35am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert's article Dear friends in the dhamma, Robert has kindly sent us a great article, 'Correspondence with Robert' which I have just finished uploading. It's a must for those who have practised or are practising samatha and very interesting for those (like me) who have never experienced it! For easier access click here:. Comments appreciated, Amara 127 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 4:05pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time to read it and can give some comments and criticism I would much appreciate it. I just reread it and noticed a couple of punctuation mistakes(never have been good at punctuation-I blame the New Zealnad education system). I'm writing another article which further develops the same theme. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > Robert has kindly sent us a great article, > 'Correspondence with Robert' > which I have just finished uploading. It's a must > for those who have > practised or are practising samatha and very > interesting for those (like me) > who have never experienced it! For easier access > click > here:. > Comments appreciated, > Amara > 128 From: NT Hense Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 6:01pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (DhammaStudyGroup) helping elderly parents, Sigalovada Sutta in the translation of Sigalovada sutta I have it says on the relationship of parents and childrens: .... The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and Brahmans as the Zenith. In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:- -having supported me I shall support them, -I shall do their duties, -I shall keep the family tradition, -I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance, -furthermore, I shall offer alms in honour of my departed relatives. In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:- -they restrain them from evil, -they encourage them to do good, -they train them for a profession, -they arrange a suitable marriage, -at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them. and in Anguttara Nikaya it says: Parents Monks, one can never repay two persons, I declare. What two? Mother and father. Even if one should carry about his mother on one shoulder and his father on the other, and wihle doing so should live a hundred years, reach an age of a hundred years; and if he should (attend to them) by annointing them wirh salves, by massaging, bathing and rubbing their limbs, and they should even void their excrements there; even by that would he not do enough for his parents, would not repay them. Even if he were to establish his parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this earth so rich in the seven treasures, he would not do enough for them, would not repay them. What is the cause of that? Parents do much for their children, O monks, they bring them up, feed them, are their guides through this world. But he, monks, who encourages his unbelieving parents, settles and establishes them in the faith, who encourages his inmoral parents, settles and establishes them in morality; who encourages his stingy parents, settles and establishes them in liberaltiy; who encourages his ignorant parents, settles and establishes them in wisdom, - such a one, O monks, does enough for his parents, he repays and more than repays them for what they have done. It is helpful to read these reminders and not to forget the noble truth that all our doing is conditioned. Which brings us back to the beginning, namely to study nama and rupa. gabi 129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 11, 2000 2:02am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents Pinna, as you comment, how duty is carried out is not clear. We could say, how kusala is carried out is not clear either...the best kusala is understanding reality and it maybe that nothing is done! Like you say, (especially in the West I think), maintaining 'independence' is very important to the elderly. Both Jonothan's mother and mine would hate anyone to live with them and much prefer to take care of themselves..indeed it's what keeps them going...They are also fortunate that this is possible. Sometimes we are too concerned to impose our value judgments rather than allow them to make their own choices.. On my last visit, I tried to urge my mother to get a part-time cleaner to help do the chores she avoids, but she didn't appreciate my comments at all (or my offer to pay for it)! S'times, positive encouragement rather than shows of our concern or worry is more helpful. It reminds me of when Jonothan discovered his tumour. One close friend, kept calling & urging us to send him for surgery immediately and giving us 'scare' stories of what would happen if we didn't. I'm sure she meant well, I know she meant well, but in the end we found it a condition for extra worry and I had to politely ask her not to call anymore...We need to make our own choices even if they're not the 'best'. If you stay based in Asia as you'd prefer w/plenty of visits 'home', maybe your mother would prefer it...seeing you well and happy may be most important to her..No right or wrong of course, and however much thinking and planning there is, we don't know what will happen or what we'll do even on a conventional level! As Ivan pointed out, attachment makes life difficult for us in this regard....But I also think like Thanarong that it's not just attachment....many different moments, kusala and akusala... I'm glad to hear your mother is still well and healthy.... Sarah> > >As Amara said, it is a complex problem. One side of the issue is duty and >duty seems clear. But how duty is carried out is also not clear. The other >side is allowing someone to keep their independence and do things for >themselves (as my mother still wants to); allow them to make their own >decisions as long as they can. I have observed in my family (extended as >well as immediate) decisions about health care left to the patient and it >is >not easy to judge when someone knows best for themselves; it is also not >always easy to see the critical turning point in a person's ability to take >care of herself / her own health (life-threatening crises are of course >clear). Is it a duty to impose a change of lifestyle or a different >approach >to health? ...... ______________________________________________________ 130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 9:18pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Helping elderly parents, Sigalovada Sutta Gabi, Welcome to the ranks of the active! Many thanks for the sutta quotes. They make interesting reading again after a long break. I find the passage from the Anguttara Nigaya especially poingnant. First, because in terms of worldly support, no amount of support can ever be enough. Secondly because support by way of encouragment in dana, sila and bhavana is of immensurable value. How fortunate we are to be in a position to offer the latter (conditions permitting). Do you, or does anyone, have any thoughts on how the 2 passages apply in our lives, ie ministering to one's parents (Sigolavada) vs repaying parents for what they have done (Angutara)? Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 131 From: amara chay Date: Fri Feb 11, 2000 4:53am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert's article I'm sorry the 'click here' didn't work last time, let me try again : just to see if it works! ______________________________________________________ 132 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 3:21pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism Dear Group, Western Philosophy is divided on the question of whether there is free will or whether things are determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to relate these western concepts to the way things really are - as explained in Buddhism? Robert 133 From: Lester Wahlqvist Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 6:29pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > Western Philosophy is divided on the question of > whether there is free will or whether things are > determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to > relate these western concepts to the way things really > are - as explained in Buddhism? > Robert > Hello Robert Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help: It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill' essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such things - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.' The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution. Lester -- Lester Wahlqvist 134 From: amara chay Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 0:21pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism >From: Lester Wahlqvist >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:59:55 +1030 > > >on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick >wrote: > > > Dear Group, > > Western Philosophy is divided on the question of > > whether there is free will or whether things are > > determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to > > relate these western concepts to the way things really > > are - as explained in Buddhism? > > Robert > > > >Hello Robert > >Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help: > >It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question >rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If >there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill' >essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have >it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such >things >- the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or >'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.' > >The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western >philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been >endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution. > >Lester > I agree with Lester that there is no concept of non-self in the west or in any non-Buddhist tradition, for that matter, with which to relate determinism. Personally I think of vipaka as determined and present (and possibly but not certainly future) kamma as free will. I don't know if it would work for anyone else, Amara ______________________________________________________ 136 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 0:10pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism Dear Lester, Thanks for the great comments: --- > It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges > around the question > rather than the answer: What is it that has or > doesn't have freewill? If > there is no self to be free or not free then the > question of 'freewill' > essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one > to have it or not have > it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in > talking about such things > - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, > but now I don't' or > 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but > now I do.' > Robert 137 From: Lester Wahlqvist Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 7:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism Dear Thannarong Viboonsunti That was René Descartes (1596-1650) who was a French philosopher and mathematician, usually associated with the idea of dualism (separation of mind and body - which has some interesting parallels with the 'nama' & 'rupa' story). There's a summary of his life and ideas at if you want to follow him up a bit more. Happy browsing! Lester on 15/2/00 8:08 AM, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: > Lester, > Who says 'I think therefore I am' in western philosophy that you mentioned > below? > --------------------------- > > > At 20:59 14/2/00 +1030, you wrote: >> on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Group, >>> Western Philosophy is divided on the question of >>> whether there is free will or whether things are >>> determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to >>> relate these western concepts to the way things really >>> are - as explained in Buddhism? >>> Robert >>> >> >> Hello Robert >> >> Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help: >> >> It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question >> rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If >> there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill' >> essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have >> it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such things >> - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or >> 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.' >> >> The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western >> philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been >> endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution. >> >> Lester >> > Thannarong Viboonsunti -- Lester Wahlqvist 138 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 11:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism >Dear Group, >Western Philosophy is divided on the question of >whether there is free will or whether things are >determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to >relate these western concepts to the way things really >are - as explained in Buddhism? >Robert Prior to discovering the makeup of the atom, western scientists thought they stood on floors. After they found out that the atom was made of almost no matter, they realized they were standing on nothing. Western philosophers, or anybody else for that matter, will believe that there is free will or that things are determined, until they understand what (ultimate realities) these concepts are made of. Then they will realize that there is nothing there, neither the concepts nor a self. Ivan ______________________________________________________ 139 From: shinlin Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 3:43pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] caught up in the story Dear Friends, What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska, Rupa. It's tough to contemplate every moment of the reality, but there should be of sometime where we should understand the realisties as it really is and not join the story as we have been carried on for Aoens of lives. with regards, Shin 140 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:15am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping others I found this paragraph of Robert's below a very good reminder...and for sure, the best way to help others is to develop more understanding....>From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan tthateachings >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 04:10:34 -0800 (PST) > > >dear group, >I enjoyed reading all the pieces about parents and >about conversations with those who cling to other >ideas. >I agree with khun Tannarong that intention is the main >factor. Still, intention arises with both kusala and >akusala cittas, sometimes we intend to do good but it >is still akusala. Consider those fundamental >Christians (I feel guilty using them as an example- >they make too easy a target), who preach the gospel. >There intention is to save us and bring us to heaven- >but the citta is mostly lobha(attachment) associated >with miccha-ditthi(wrongview). It is just the same >with us at times -we think we are doing good but >subtle clinging is there. > >This week I had discussions with different people. On >monday there are 3 people who meet with me to discuss >Dhamma. They are very interested in all aspects of >buddhism and have strong confidence in kamma and its >results. The discussion flows along so nicely. But >what cittas are involved? There must be moments with >sati and panna but also other moments with clinging. >On that day we had a big lunch and afterwards I had a >slight headache and thus there were moments of >aversion too. Someone complimented me: It wasn't >apparent but, for sure, cittas associated with conceit >immediately arose. >The next day a friend who is devotee of Tibetan >Buddhism came to visit. We talked, as we usually do, >about how to understand reality. He explained as he >usually does, how studying is not so important: that >it is by 'mind to mind transmission" that >enlightenment occurs and so the real way to get >understanding was to find an enlightened Guru and >devote one's life to him. He has done this and is very >satisfied with the results. This time I didn't feel >like disagreeing, I just listened and asked a few >questions. While he was talking reminders about the >present moment kept coming up (not from him)- it was >all very worthwhile. >On Wednesday 2 mormon missionaries who know me well >dropped by. We had a long discussion about what could >be known about virtue beyond just faith in a teacher >or religious text. This time I spoke a lot and they >listened. We ended the meeting in agreement about many >issues. > >I relate these meetings not as examples of how we >should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main >point would be that there are not too many rules to >follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other >person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an >accumulation that assists later understanding), at >other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the >wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at >the wrong time. We do our best depending on our >understanding - the more we develop the more we can >help others. >Robert > ______________________________________________________ 141 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:20am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping others Dear all, sorry the last posting went off before I'd finished editing! It was the following paragraph I was referring to as being a good reminder for me and especially the last sentence in it. Thanks R. Sarah p.s. Lester- great to hear from you on the list...do encourage M. too if she can spare us a few moments of her wisdom from Down Under. >I relate these meetings not as examples of how we >should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main >point would be that there are not too many rules to >follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other >person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an >accumulation that assists later understanding), at >other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the >wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at >the wrong time. We do our best depending on our >understanding - the more we develop the more we can >help others. >Robert > > ______________________________________________________ 142 From: amara chay Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] The order of the 6 dvara Sarah, There was a dhamma discussion today during which I brought up the qu. of the order in which the senses are taught and K. Sujin told me that they are ranked by importance, just as Jonothan had mentioned, and not in the vertical order as I had speculated. She said there is are reasons given in the tripitaka or the comentaries, but said I should look them up myself! None of the others present remembered where they were either. Anyone has any idea where this explanation is? Amara ______________________________________________________ 143 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Feb 20, 2000 9:32am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Dear Shin, Good comments. I was just listening to the tapes sarah sent me from Jan 1 in Bangkok. (thanks Sarah). Khun Sujin pointed out several times how trying to solve problems by thinking about the situation, the story, is not really going to do much. It is the difference between Buddhism and other ways. Other religions, psycholgy, self-help books,motivational seminars cults: they all may help people in some ways but Buddhism gets to the root of all problems - the idea of self. Once this is cut away by understanding nama and rupa as they really are then everything is solved. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Friends, > What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too > caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to > look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska, > Rupa. > It's tough to contemplate every moment of the > reality, but there should be of sometime where we > should understand the realisties as it really is and > not join the story as we have been carried on for > Aoens of lives. > > with regards, > Shin 144 From: shinlin Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 0:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Dear Robert, Recently, I have joined the dhamma talks with Archan Sujin and Santi and have realized that I was too caught up with alot of thinkings before. Thinking of this and that. The thinking goes on and on. And the lobha tends to drag us into this thinking process. Therefore if there is no gradual contemplation of the citta, cetasika and rupa, we will soon develop more self and caught ourself in this BIG FAT UNREALITY World of our own. I have changed my analyzing strategy already and am conscentrating on more understanding of the reality by reading the Tritipika and discuss more about the real Dhammas. I find it not easy to understand the real Dhamma with such a little little panna that I have accumulated. Everytime I end up assuming what I thought of what I have understood. It is scary to study the DHAMMA on our own without a person who has the RIGHT understand. This is my recent understanding of Buddhism. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 8:32 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story > > Dear Shin, > Good comments. I was just listening to the tapes sarah > sent me from Jan 1 in Bangkok. (thanks Sarah). Khun > Sujin pointed out several times how trying to solve > problems by thinking about the situation, the story, > is not really going to do much. It is the difference > between Buddhism and other ways. Other religions, > psycholgy, self-help books,motivational seminars > cults: they all may help people in some ways but > Buddhism gets to the root of all problems - the idea > of self. Once this is cut away by understanding nama > and rupa as they really are then everything is solved. > Robert > --- shinlin wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too > > caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to > > look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska, > > Rupa. > > It's tough to contemplate every moment of the > > reality, but there should be of sometime where we > > should understand the realisties as it really is and > > not join the story as we have been carried on for > > Aoens of lives. > > > > with regards, > > Shin > > 145 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 2:07pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Dear Shin, It sounds to me like you are on the right track. It might feel a little discouraging to realize that we know so very little about the real nature of dhammas. But it is better to accept this than to think we know a lot. We still have the entire Tipitaka and commentaries in a very pure form; when we study them it is like we are listening to the Buddha now. We study the texts, we consider, we begin to study realities directly. As you know it is not a matter of remembering lists of different clasifications in the Abhidhamma but of applying and testing what we have studied with the realities we experience now. Yesterday Khun Amara wrote about the eye-door being important. How do we consider that? Is it just an interesting fact? Or does it condition more interest now in studying colour and seeing? At this moment colour is appearing through the eye-door - do we get lost in the stories that the different colours condition or can we analyse and dissect - even just a little- the different realities. And if we are lost in the story can we accept that? It is the truth at this moment. Concepts arise because of the thinking process - and the thinking processes are real. We can study the different moments - the different feelings, the lobha, dosa, moha, or amoha alohba etc. that the different moments of thinking are rooted in. How do we study realities? Is there a subtle wish to get something? Even when we begin to understand dhmmas it is mostly thinking about them rather than direct experience. Do we accept this or do we want more? The right reflection helps to let go of the idea of a self who is having undestanding. Then there are more conditions for direct experience (of the true kind) But even right reflection can get in the way –if there is clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content because life is now better understood. It is good to remember that we are not trying to have any experience. None at all. You might object – "I want to experience Nibbana." This is just lobha, wanting. "OK, then I want to experience namma-rupa parricheda nana." Lobha. Or we have beeen around awhile , we know the right answer “I just want to understand the present moment”. But how much desire is in that “want”. Even if it is very slight it will block understanding. It is so hard to comprehend. There is chanda that arises with kusala a citta and there is chanda that arise with akusala. What is the difference between them? What is the difference between chanda and lobha? When there is kusala of satippatthana there is detachment at that moment. Then again the moments are short – hard to be sure it was correct. At times we might feel detached from objects, but is this wisdom or is it merely boredom? Do we want to be sure – lobha again. If we aren’t sure then we aren’t sure- it is the truth at that moment. It has to be this way because there is no self to control anything. Conditions arise by their own manifold conditions. I hope this doesn't discourage you. Every moment we consider the teachings or study realities in the right way is a moment that panna is developing. If we are going in the right direction, no matter how slowly, it is much better than going in the wrong direction, no matter how fast. (sometimes we go in the wrong direction too - can't control that - but we can begin to understand it). Robert 146 From: shinlin Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 4:31pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Dear Robert, Thankyou for your mail. The mail that K.Amara mentioned, I have considered on looking at the Tipitaka. I was talking dhamma with Kwan yesterday night about this order. He does not intend to guess at all. So the only way to get the answer is look at the real reference. I will be purchasing a set of Tipitaka next week. So probably this question will be answered by somebody already. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 1:07 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story > Dear Shin, > It sounds to me like you are on the right track. It > might feel a little discouraging to realize that we > know so very little about the real nature of dhammas. > But it is better to accept this than to think we know > a lot. > We still have the entire Tipitaka and commentaries in > a very pure form; when we study them it is like we are > listening to the Buddha now. We study the texts, we > consider, we begin to study realities directly. > > As you know it is not a matter of remembering lists of > different clasifications in the Abhidhamma but of > applying and testing what we have studied with the > realities we experience now. Yesterday Khun Amara > wrote about the eye-door being important. How do we > consider that? Is it just an interesting fact? Or does > it condition more interest now in studying colour and > seeing? At this moment colour is appearing through the > eye-door - do we get lost in the stories that the > different colours condition or can we analyse and > dissect - even just a little- the different realities. > > > And if we are lost in the story can we accept that? It > is the truth at this moment. Concepts arise because of > the thinking process - and the thinking processes are > real. We can study the different moments - the > different feelings, the lobha, dosa, moha, or amoha > alohba etc. that the different moments of thinking are > rooted in. > > How do we study realities? Is there a subtle wish to > get something? > > Even when we begin to understand dhmmas it is mostly > thinking about them rather than direct experience. Do > we accept this or do we want more? The right > reflection helps to let go of the idea of a self who > is having undestanding. Then there are more conditions > for direct experience (of the true kind) But even > right reflection can get in the way -if there is > clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content > because life is now better understood. > It is good to remember that we are not trying to have > any experience. None at all. You might object - "I > want to experience Nibbana." This is just lobha, > wanting. > "OK, then I want to experience namma-rupa parricheda > nana." > Lobha. > Or we have beeen around awhile , we know the right > answer "I just want to understand the present moment". > But how much desire is in that "want". Even if it is > very slight it will block understanding. It is so hard > to comprehend. There is chanda that arises with kusala > a citta and there is chanda that arise with akusala. > What is the difference between them? What is the > difference between chanda and lobha? When there is > kusala of satippatthana there is detachment at that > moment. Then again the moments are short - hard to be > sure it was correct. At times we might feel detached > from objects, but is this wisdom or is it merely > boredom? Do we want to be sure - lobha again. If we > aren't sure then we aren't sure- it is the truth at > that moment. It has to be this way because there is no > self to control anything. Conditions arise by their > own manifold conditions. > > I hope this doesn't discourage you. Every moment we > consider the teachings or study realities in the right > way is a moment that panna is developing. If we are > going in the right direction, no matter how slowly, it > is much better than going in the wrong direction, no > matter how fast. (sometimes we go in the wrong > direction too - can't control that - but we can begin > to understand it). > Robert > 147 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 22, 2000 7:04am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Right now we're caught up in 'the tumour' story..actually we're caught uo in 'the celebration of the shrinkage of the tumour' story....over 50% and on its way out for those interested...very remarkable and very lucky! Reminds us how susceptible we are to the 8 worldly coditions which someone may kindly quote in full...so susceptible to gain and loss and to health and sickness...we celebrate when it goes well and cry when it goes badly, all the time taking the stories and in this case the tumour for something....just many moments of seeing, hearing, hardness, softness etc...just another story... But it's not a matter of changing our way of thinking or concentrating on some new ideas of dhamma but of accepting and understanding the realities which appear. So the thinking is real, whatever the concepts. And however crazy it may seem, thinking can be the object of understanding and awareness too. As Robert implies in his super long response to Shin, any selection or preference for certain realities reflects the strong clinging to self... I've written this to give myself reminders as much as anyone else! Sarah ______________________________________________________ 148 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 2:57am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article Sorry, Robert & Amara, I'm probably being dim, but I've not been able to find it...pls give some directions then i'll be interested to read/comment. Sarah >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:05:53 -0800 (PST) > > >Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time >to read it and can give some comments and criticism I >would much appreciate it. I just reread it and noticed >a couple of punctuation mistakes(never have been good >at punctuation-I blame the New Zealnad education >system). >I'm writing another article which further develops the >same theme. >Robert > >--- amara chay wrote: > > > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > Robert has kindly sent us a great article, > > 'Correspondence with Robert' > > which I have just finished uploading. It's a must > > for those who have > > practised or are practising samatha and very > > interesting for those (like me) > > who have never experienced it! For easier access > > click > > here:. > > Comments appreciated, > > Amara > > ______________________________________________________ 149 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 7:57pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article Dear Sarah , It is under the beginner section of the English section. Here is the url:http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Sorry, Robert & Amara, I'm probably being dim, but > I've not been able to > find it...pls give some directions then i'll be > interested to read/comment. > > Sarah > 150 From: amara chay Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 4:25pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:04:45 CST > > >Right now we're caught up in 'the tumour' story..actually we're caught uo >in >'the celebration of the shrinkage of the tumour' story....over 50% and on >its way out for those interested...very remarkable and very lucky! Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just returned from Chiengmai this evening, and it is wonderful to hear the good news (attachments, attachments!) and I hope this continues for you! For my part I have just heard one of the best teachings that K. Sujin has ever made, in an idyllic setting of a beautiful flower filled valley, to, sadest of events, the resigning vice president of the foundation, who, although one of the finest gentleman, did not appear have the panna to listen to her at all...(Just another story to add to the infinite list of stories, but one which to me was one of the most momentous events in my life). It does not concern his resignation but it is such an indescribable speech that I will try to translate the transcription as soon as I can. I told her that my life would not have been a waste of time just to hear that speech alone. I only hope my translation can come near to doing it justice. It was very frightening to me that a person who has listened to the dhamma for thirty years could turn his back to her teachings, although he greeted us all with the best hospitality, it reminded me of the infinite danger of vatta, we should never be over-confident, or not careful because we are all growing older and all our faculties have a tendency to wear down so that one day we might forget about studying the dhamma. Even if we were young, once you are born you are on your way towards death. Each moment of sati is very precious, indeed, because we never know when we will die and panna is the only treasure we can take with us to our next lifetime. Still, this regretable situation gave rise to this wonderful speech, and I hope to share its benefits with you soon, Amara 151 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 10:08am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Dear Jonothon, I am very happy to hear about the progress in your health. Dear Khun amara, I really look forward to your translation of khun sujins speech. Please work night and day (I am joking). > you wrote "It was very frightening to me that a person who has > listened to the dhamma > for thirty years could turn his back to her > teachings," It all demonstrates anatta. We might decide that we will always have right view. But it doesn't work that way. The variuos conditions work according to their own laws. As you say we shouldn't be overconfident. Do you know what he thought was wrong?. I talked to some people who were in India when he first decided to go a different way. At that time he refused to say what he objected to. Robert 152 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:00pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] promoting the discussion group --- Dear Amara, It might be worth considering putting a sign in box for this discussion group on your site. on the contents section of the English site would be the ideal place. You can get a custom made one by going to http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/info.html and then going down to Promote and clicking on it. They give you instructions from there. Robert 153 From: amara chay Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 5:50am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story >I really look forward to your translation of khun >sujins speech. Please work night and day (I am >joking). I'm sorry to say that we'll have to wait for the Thai transcript of the recordings first, as soon as I have that it won't take long for the translation (I hope!). >Do you know what he thought was wrong?. I talked to >some people who were in India when he first decided to >go a different way. At that time he refused to say >what he objected to. Somehow he thinks we have all been misinterpreting the teachings, that only he understands the dhamma as the Buddha taught, which is all based on memorization and contemplation, without his realizing it was all thoughts: for example one can take a glass and consider it sila(!) because we did not steal it from anyone. We can consider it dana, because if we gave it away, it would be so, we can even consider it payogha because we reach for it!!!!! There is no more mention of studying the realities that appear... He refuses to answer questions for those confused or to reason with anyone, and whispered and laughed with his friend while K. Sujin talked, etc. I seriously wonder if he is still in his right mind except that in normal society outside the conference room he was as gentlemanly as ever. It's as if he were two different persons at the same time, the moment Dhamma is mentioned his face gets dark, clouded and, even distorted. We were devastated (I was!) because we had all been such good friends and we love him and his wife very much even now, but K. Sujin said there has been metta, karuna, muddhita and so now there should be upekha (as difficult as it is!) We can only hope that his better accumulations could help him come back to the truth one day... It was a terrible lesson for me, I really feel now that sati is the most precious thing in life and we should not neglect the slightest chance of allowing it to happen and to accumulate the right conditions for it to arise by studying the dhamma, and K. Sujin is the best teacher I have ever known. Anumodana with all who are on the right path, Amara ______________________________________________________ 154 From: amara chay Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:09am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: promoting the discussion group Dear Amara, >It might be worth considering putting a sign in box >for this discussion group on your site. on the >contents section of the English site would be the >ideal place. >You can get a custom made one by going to >http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/info.html >and then going down to Promote and clicking on it. >They give you instructions from there. >Robert Dear Robert, I have never seen one yet, but wouldn't people think it was just an ad or something of the sort? I was thinking of an article in a newsletter to announce it and explain how it functions etc. I think I mentioned it once before but no one seemed interested in writing it up, so I thought no one thought it was relevant. Amara. ______________________________________________________ 155 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 7:26pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The order of the 6 dvara Amara wrote- >There was a dhamma discussion today during which I brought up the qu. of >the >order in which the senses are taught and K. Sujin told me that they are >ranked by importance, just as Jonothan had mentioned, and not in the >vertical order as I had speculated. She said there is are reasons given in >the tripitaka or the comentaries, but said I should look them up myself! >None of the others present remembered where they were either. >Anyone has any idea where this explanation is? I'm sure Nina would know where to find this. What a pity she is not on-line. ______________________________________________________ 156 From: amara chay Date: Sun Feb 27, 2000 3:44am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DhammaStudy.com >Dear Amara, > >It might be worth considering putting a sign in box > >for this discussion group on your site. Dear friends in the dhamma, It just occured to me to protest that is not my personal site, it was originally set up as part of K. Sujin's foundation, to which we are still affiliated. It would not be in existence at all but for the effort of many people including Robert himself, and the person who taught me almost all I know about computers, our secretary-technician Kesinee Kun-Anek. It will continue to operate only as long as people consider it as thiers too, and help us correct mistakes as well as grow, as Tom and Bev have been doing. Please think of it as ours and we can discuss how we might best represent the dhamma in today's world, the ideal situation would be if it, like the dhamma, belonged to no one and to all. Amara ______________________________________________________ 157 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 28, 2000 0:21am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Amara, I am very grateful that you let us know about these occasions and discussions and good daily life examples for applying our understanding. Talking about the value of uppekkha, K. Sujin is really a wonderful example....it doesn't mean we don't do all we can to help, but the help should be with detachment rather than attachment. As Robert mentions, these examples reflect the anattaness of realities. We think someone has heard a lot of dhamma and accumulated a lot of understanding, but in the end unless we have reached the stage of sotapanna, we can go 'off track' at any time and be influenced by other views. Also, it's not a matter of how much we read or how long we have listened to the dhamma but of how much wise flection and development of understanding of the realities which appear now there is. As you imply, life is precious, moments of wise reflection of the teachings and especially moments of panna are precious and we don't know what tests are ahead. I heard (when i was in Bkk) that this person had been faced with some difficult tests during the financial crisis and maybe didn't have enough confidence in right understanding of the dhamma to pass the tests at that time. Perhaps later. Our disappointment shows our expectation for sure! By the way, what is vatta? I'm also looking f/w to yr translation of the talk - it must have been a wonderful experience. If it's not too inconvenient, Jonothan would like a copy of the talk in Thai to listen to. Our new add from Apr1 will be: Flat 9F, One StarCrest, 9 Star Street, Hong Kong. Thanks, Sarah > >For my part I have just heard one of the best teachings that K. Sujin has >ever made, in an idyllic setting of a beautiful flower filled valley, to, >sadest of events, the resigning vice president of the foundation, who, >although one of the finest gentleman, did not appear have the panna to >listen to her at all...(Just another story to add to the infinite list of >stories, but one which to me was one of the most momentous events in my >life). It does not concern his resignation but it is such an indescribable >speech that I will try to translate the transcription as soon as I can. > >I told her that my life would not have been a waste of time just to hear >that speech alone. I only hope my translation can come near to doing it >justice. > >It was very frightening to me that a person who has listened to the dhamma >for thirty years could turn his back to her teachings, although >he greeted us all with the best hospitality, it reminded me of the infinite >danger of vatta, we should never be over-confident, or not careful because >we are all growing older and all our faculties have a tendency to wear down >so that one day we might forget about studying the dhamma. Even if we were >young, once you are born you are on your way towards death. Each moment of >sati is very precious, indeed, because we never know when we will die and >panna is the only treasure we can take with us to our next lifetime. > >Still, this regretable situation gave rise to this wonderful speech, and I >hope to share its benefits with you soon, >Amara ______________________________________________________ 158 From: amara chay Date: Mon Feb 28, 2000 3:59am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story Sarah, It's my privilege entirely! Vatta is the infinite cycles of rebirths, (vatta = a circle or to circle). I am still waiting for both the tape and the transcript, I'm sorry to say... I forgot to tell you that K. Sujin and most of the others are returning to BKK only today because the trip was extended, and I couldn't stay on because, as I told everyone, I had my personal arahanta waiting for me at home! Amara ______________________________________________________ 159 From: amara chay Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 3:06am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] No Subject Dear Friends in the dhamma, The latest addition to our site, as of this morning, is a page about the DhammaStudy Discussion Group, DSDG in the index. Please have a look and see if there needs to be any changes (my mother found it a bit 'risque' at first until I told her it was titled 'evolution'!) Amara ______________________________________________________ 160 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 2:51pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG DeaR amara, It is almost perfect, it looks nice. But instead of DSDG on the contents page perhaps "Internet Discussion Group" will let people know exactly what it is. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear Friends in the dhamma, > The latest addition to our site, as of this morning, > is a page about the > DhammaStudy Discussion Group, DSDG in the index. > Please have a look and see > if there needs to be any changes (my mother found it > a bit 'risque' at first > until I told her it was titled 'evolution'!) > Amara 161 From: amara chay Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 11:58am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Dear Robert, I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more intriguing. Let's put it to a vote! Amara ______________________________________________________ 162 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 3:10pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Amara, I am just catching up on things after being mostly off-line for the past 2-3 weeks due to pressure of work. Like others, I am looking forward very much to your translation of Khun Sujin's talk. (I would also like to order a copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) Thanks for putting the link into your website. I suppose I would vote in favour of a 3rd option, "Internet Discussion Group" or something similar. The link actually contains 2 options for the visitor. One is to subscribe, the other is to visit the archives. You may wish to make this clear by some suitable wording, if revising the link page at some time. By the way, when making a posting to this listgroup which makes reference to your website, feel free to include in your message a link to the website. (The same goes for Alan.) Keep up the good work! Jonothan Amara wrote >I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more >intriguing. >Let's put it to a vote! ______________________________________________________ 163 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 2:52pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG (I would also like to >order a >copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) Jonothan, I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to you myself. >Thanks for putting the link into your website. I suppose I would vote in >favour of a 3rd option, "Internet Discussion Group" or something similar. That would be one vote in favor of Robert's suggestion, then. >The link actually contains 2 options for the visitor. One is to subscribe, >the other is to visit the archives. You may wish to make this clear by >some >suitable wording, if revising the link page at some time. Feel free to reword the page, as you realize I took it from your introduction of the discussion group! Just send the correction to me and I will put it up. >By the way, when making a posting to this listgroup which makes reference >to >your website, feel free to include in your message a link to the website. >(The same goes for Alan.) Thanks, will do! Amara >Keep up the good work! > >Jonothan > > >Amara wrote >>I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more >>intriguing. >>Let's put it to a vote! ______________________________________________________ 164 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 8:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Personal I think DSDG looks like the title to one of those dodgy sites I'd rather not visit. Rosan 165 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 3, 2000 3:35am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Two, I guess three for Robert, Amara ______________________________________________________ 166 From: shinlin Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 1:53pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ Dear Pi Joy, K. Olarn would like to join the disscussion of the DSDG. The mail will send to his mails. I really don't know what to do. Pls help me by helping K.Olarn to be able to join the discussion. Thankyou. best regards, Shin 167 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 7:30am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ Dear Shin, I just sent you a reply, I hope you got it! (I said to ask Jonothan, he would be glad to send the subscription message for you.) I saw that he also wrote to DS, so I was a bit worried that Ket did not see it because her computer crashed, or rather, her modem did, so she didn't tell me about it. As secretary to the site, all mail go to her! Do you know Ks Olarn & Kalya personally? Her question is so short, I wonder if she is having problems in these difficult days. I have asked Ket to open the mail tomorrow from my machine, so we can see if she wrote anything else. How is your translation coming? Did you find my pages any help? Amara ______________________________________________________ 168 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 11:53pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article Robert, only just got round to reading 'Correspondence with Robert' and I found it very good!.....as you said, maybe a little polishing up later, but a lot of good material. Keep it up. I'd like to encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so at the website below. (I gave my printout to J. after a quick read, so can't make further comments until I have it in front of me again...will do so then). By the way, Amara & Alan, it would be useful to have the website appear here in blue so anyone can just 'zap' it as they do on other sites. Maybe Tom & Bev can help w/ this! >Dear Sarah , >It is under the beginner section of the English >section. Here is the >url:http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html >Robert > > 169 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 9:06pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps Dear All, Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called 'Following Asoka's Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to India with khun Sujin. It is now on my web site under the e-books section, but will need adobe acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is available on almost all cd's that come with computer magazines as well as being available online. Best wishes, Alan 170 From: amara chay Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 4:15pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS Alan, I'm glad to hear about your new addition and really look forward to reading Nina's latest book- I will right away! And everyone, We also have a small new article for those who read Thai, in answer to a question we received, translated as "Why were we born?" This is in a new section of Q&A in Thai translated as, "You Ask, We Answer". Another great background of colliding galaxies by NASA, by the way. English readers will have to wait a while for the translation! Sarah, I will put a link in DSDG's 'LINKS' section so you can zap it more easily. We are also sending you the tape tomorrow, so please tell us when you get it, Shin, I forgot to tell you that you must send your friend's e-mail address to Jonothan so he can send the subscription form, as I said, I have been unsuccessful when I tried, so perhaps the founders of the group have more success at it! Looking forward to more questions, Amara ______________________________________________________ 171 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 11:07am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps dear alan, I just read over the message about sponsoring in Taking refuge .._ It is great. Recently I received the proofs of Realities and Concepts . The inside cover says published by Dhamma Study and Support Foundation. I was at a meeting with Khun sujin and others last year and we discussed the name. Many people didn't like propagation and Ivan suggested changing it to support - which I strongly agreed with. Apparently this has been finalized as I didn't mention anything to the printers yet the new name is on the book. Once I go to thailand I will gather a few hundred copies to bring back to japan. We can then announce on the internet that these are available for free distribution. Robert --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote: > > Dear All, > > Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called > 'Following Asoka's > Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to > India with khun Sujin. It > is now on my web site under the e-books section, but > will need adobe > acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is > available on almost > all cd's that come with computer magazines as well > as being available > online. > > Best wishes, Alan > 172 From: shinlin Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 6:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ Dear Pi Joy, K. Olarn is a very good friend of both Pi Kwan and I. He was the one who introduced me to listen to K. Sujin. And I gotten some understanding when I talked to K. Olarn. I don't know Jonathon's email address. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay To: Dear Shin, > I just sent you a reply, I hope you got it! (I said to ask Jonothan, he > would be glad to send the subscription message for you.) I saw that he also > wrote to DS, so I was a bit worried that Ket did not see it because her > computer crashed, or rather, her modem did, so she didn't tell me about it. > As secretary to the site, all mail go to her! > Do you know Ks Olarn & Kalya personally? Her question is so short, I wonder > if she is having problems in these difficult days. > I have asked Ket to open the mail tomorrow from my machine, so we can see if > she wrote anything else. > How is your translation coming? Did you find my pages any help? > Amara > 173 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 1:26pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: > I don't know Jonathon's email address. >best regards, >Shin Dear Shin, I meant just tell Jonothan through this posting, he's probably reading this but he can't send the subscription form for you if he doesn't have your friend's address. By the way, is Khun Kalya K. Olarn's wife? Yesterday Ket opened DS's mail and found his message among the others and Varee wrote the reply. In any case I sent them the answer already and have put Varee's excellent explanations on the web, as I announced yesterday. In fact it's so short that I have just finished translating it to English and have put it up as Q&A2, with the same spectacular background of 2 galaxies colliding. Anyone interested could click on the 'Links' sign above (on the page at the DSDG site) or here . Any comments or corrections will be appreciated, Amara ______________________________________________________ 174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 11, 2000 9:26pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining-up new members Shin, The list is open to anyone to join. It is not necessary to receive an invitation first. Just tell your friend to send a (blank) messaage to and they will be able to register in the usual way. Apologies for not posting this sooner. jonothan ______________________________________________________ 175 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 13, 2000 3:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining-up new members Shin, Further to my earlier messsage, I should have added that anyone can browse the messages (current or old) by going to the following address: http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup Some people may wish to do this before deciding whether to join up. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 176 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 13, 2000 5:49pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DS Dear friends in the dhamma, DS has added a new page to its intermediate section, 'Kammasakata-Nana', an excerpt form the dhamma discussion at Utayan Lan Na. I realized during the translation that we have all heard it all before, maybe it was the context, the situation as well as the surroundings that so impressed me at the time, as well as the rest of the discussion which lasted about a day and a half. Some people also liked other parts better, but to translate all or even only the parts where Khun Sujin talked would have been long for me, at least for the moment. You will find the new page at As usual, we would appreciate any comments or corrections, Amara ______________________________________________________ 177 From: amara chay Date: Tue Mar 14, 2000 5:36am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DS Dear friends in the dhamma, Just to inform you that 'Kammasakata' has been moved to the advanced section of DS, because of its difficulty. If anyone disagrees please inform us. This does not affect the url for those interested, but if you go to please look for it in the advanced section. Amara ______________________________________________________ 178 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 9:13am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article Amara, Many thanks for the translation of Khun Sujin's talk on kammasakata-nana, which I have just seen. It is a very interesting area of discussion. And quite meaty! I certainly agree with it being classified as advanced. I have printed out a copy which I will read over carefully (I find that a monitor is good for skimming but not codicuve to careful reading). I am sure the translation involved a lot of work. Anumodana. Jonothan 179 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 5:57am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article >I have printed >out a copy which I will read over carefully (I find that a monitor is good >for >skimming but not codicuve to careful reading). Jonothan, I have just received a revision of the document from Robert, which I have just finished putting up, which makes a much better reading (many thanks to Robert!), and which you might like to print out. I will print one out myself for K. Sujin when we next see her. Amara ______________________________________________________ 180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 6:26pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article >I have just received a revision of the document from Robert, which I have >just finished putting up, which makes a much better reading (many thanks to >Robert!), and which you might like to print out. I will print one out >myself for K. Sujin when we next see her. > >Amara Amara, Yes, I have done that. Fortunately, I had not deleted your previous message with the link to the URL. It's great to have that convenience. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 181 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 11:10am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article ---> Dear Amara, I am now working on the article some more to make it easier to read- and putting English translations with the Pali terms as you suggested. Could you tell me the story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few sentences at the beginning to give some background. So how many people were present?. What is the actual place, is it historical , a garden etc? people came from Bangkok , chaingmai , other places? Anything else that I might be able to add. Was it a special occasion? And thank you very much for translating it. It is a really important talk. Pure Abhidhamma - which means pure daily life. It is all happening right now, just as the Buddha described. These sort of talks naturally incline the mind towards investigating for ourselves. Hearing Dhamma is a vital paccaya for panna to develop. I am sure Ivan will appreciate reading over it. Robert > >I have just received a revision of the document > from Robert, which I have > >just finished putting up, which makes a much better > reading (many thanks to > >Robert!), and which you might like to print out. I > will print one out > >myself for K. Sujin when we next see her. > > > >Amara > > Amara, > Yes, I have done that. Fortunately, I had not > deleted your previous message > with the link to the URL. It's great to have that > convenience. > Jonothan > 182 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:17am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article >Could you tell me the >story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few >sentences at the beginning to give some background. Robert, I've just sent you the information with perhaps more details than I should have, to your private e-mail. I look forward to seeing what you make of it, Amara ______________________________________________________ 183 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:53pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa as a conditioned reality I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our attachments, expectations etc. But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in 'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects. So if there are no conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also. I find that understanding this, if only at an intellectual level, is helpful in understanding dosa as simply a conditioned reality. I suppose it's obvious when you think about it. ______________________________________________________ 184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:59pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called 'Following Asoka's >Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to India with khun Sujin. It >is now on my web site under the e-books section, but will need adobe >acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is available on almost >all cd's that come with computer magazines as well as being available >online. > >Best wishes, Alan Alan, Many thanks for putting this on your website. I am looking forward to reading it. Can I suggest you include a link to the URL whenever you mention your website? It will make it a lot easier to follow up on the article being referred to. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 185 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 11:07pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS >Shin, >I forgot to tell you that you must send your friend's e-mail address to >Jonothan so he can send the subscription form, as I said, I have been >unsuccessful when I tried, so perhaps the founders of the group have more >success at it! Looking forward to more questions, >Amara Amara, Shin, Have you passed on the joining-up procedure to the people you had in mind? Let me know if my message was not clear or if there are any difficulties. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 186 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:04am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality >I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our >attachments, >expectations etc. But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in >'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of >existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects. So if there are no >conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also. Jonothan, I would like to add that since only the anagami and the arahanta have eradicated dosa, we will have to keep studying its characteristics for a very long time! In some ways it is not as dangerous as lobha, I think, which is there almost all the time, subtly leading us on without our realizing it. But as you say they are only conditioned realities, and not beyond the power of panna, though accumulated by tiny instants of sati, to eradicate when it is strong enough. I find it fascinating and encouraging to think of the power of sati, the single touch on the knife handle, to extinguish such formidable, long ruling kilesa that we have continually collected over an eternity; the moment it is ready, though one can never know beforehand when that moment will come. All we can be certain of is that this is the right path that the Buddha has shown us and our duty is to keep on walking, step by step until we can see for ourselves what it is like to be there. So long as we do not procrastinate too much along the way, and especially not fall off or TURN AWAY (my personal nightmare at the moment!) we can get there one day. Again I think all reminders for sati is valuable, including our discussions, Amara ______________________________________________________ 187 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Mar 18, 2000 0:33am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: personal nightmares Amara, I had a problem w/the home computer and a change made by 'hotline' made me think there was no mail on this list for the last week- this was becoming my personal nightmare....that everyone had abandoned it! Just goes to show how the personal nightmares are a figment of our imagination or rather of being lost in those stories we talk about so often. On the subject of stories, I was also going to ask you to add some details, perhaps here if you can, to accompayny the reading of the article. Somehow the realities become more meaningful and memorable and as R suggests, the daily life nature more apparent. I think it's also useful for those not in Thailand to understand the context (and maybe the lobha just needs a few stories to latch onto at the same time that all that panna and sati are developing!) So pls don't just send the background details to Robert's private email, but share w/ yr friends here too! I am so happy (yes, lots and lots of lobha!) to see all the correspondence while I've been 'away' and it's great to see the URL headings, J & Amara! I really look f/w to catching up w/ the articles & books you all mention. Thanx for the great support! Robert, we will ALL appreciate reading over it! Sarah p.s. we had a long chat w/Susie in Canada on Sun. She has no computer at home by choice and cannot use the work one for personal- hope she joins us later! Amara, she may contact you re K.S. trip to San Fran >---> Dear Amara, >I am now working on the article some more to make it >easier to read- and putting English translations with >the Pali terms as you suggested. Could you tell me the >story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few >sentences at the beginning to give some background. So >how many people were present?. What is the actual >place, is it historical , a garden etc? people came >from Bangkok , chaingmai , other places? Anything else >that I might be able to add. Was it a special >occasion? > >And thank you very much for translating it. It is a >really important talk. Pure Abhidhamma - which means >pure daily life. It is all happening right now, just >as the Buddha described. These sort of talks naturally >incline the mind towards investigating for ourselves. >Hearing Dhamma is a vital paccaya for panna to >develop. >I am sure Ivan will appreciate reading over it. >Robert > ______________________________________________________ 188 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: personal nightmares >On the subject of stories, I was also going to ask you to add some details, >perhaps here if you can, to accompayny the reading of the article. Somehow >the realities become more meaningful and memorable and as R suggests, the >daily life nature more apparent. Sarah, I hope you don't think that I hesitate to share these things with the group, but since I had put a banner on the DSDG page of the website anyone can wander in and take a look at our posting archive, and this inside event might not interest them. Luckily Robert told me to keep a copy of the explanations I gave him, which he also added to his reply, so that now I have both, and will send them to you right away. If you'd like to pass them on, please feel free to do so, I have complete trust in your discretion. >I >really look f/w to catching up w/ the articles & books you all mention. >Thanx for the great support! > >Robert, we will ALL appreciate reading over it! >Sarah I have put the last revision up just now, and hope to add Robert's additional notes soon, >p.s. we had a long chat w/Susie in Canada on Sun. She has no computer at >home by choice and cannot use the work one for personal- hope she joins us >later! Amara, she may contact you re K.S. trip to San Fran It will really be a pleasure to hear from her, I really look forward to that! And to facilitate your zapping pleasure, click here for the site: Amara ______________________________________________________ 189 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 18, 2000 0:09pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality Amara, >From: "amara chay" >I would like to add that since only the anagami and the arahanta have >eradicated dosa, we will have to keep studying its characteristics for a >very long time! I,m afraid so! Yes, the anagami has eradicatd all clinging to sensuous objects, and therefore all conditions for the arising of dosa. He/she still has clinging to becoming/rebirth, but this level of clinging is not a condition for dosa to arise. >In some ways it is not as dangerous as lobha, I think, which is there >almost >all the time, subtly leading us on without our realizing it. It is the subtleness of lobha, including the very subtle pleasant feeling that can accompany it, that makes it so difficult to see. >I find it fascinating and encouraging to think of the power of sati, the >single touch on the knife handle, to extinguish such formidable, long >ruling >kilesa that we have continually collected over an eternity; the moment it >is >ready, though one can never know beforehand when that moment will come. > >All we can be certain of is that this is the right path that the Buddha has >shown us and our duty is to keep on walking, step by step until we can see >for ourselves what it is like to be there. So long as we do not >procrastinate too much along the way, and especially not fall off or TURN >AWAY (my personal nightmare at the moment!) we can get there one day. Yes, it is scary when someone apparently well established in the development of understanding in daily life goes off on another tack. The best 'defense' against this happening to ourselves I suppose is to honestly acknowledge our tendencies to wrong view as and when they arise from time to time. The paradox: seeing more and more these tendencies in ourselves is a positive thing! I, too, find all the reminders coming through a great help. Jonothan PS I have received the tape. Anumodana to you and your mother, to whom I send my best regards. It is classic Khun Sujin stuff with, as always, a slightly different emphasis. Many thanks. ______________________________________________________ 190 From: amara chay Date: Sun Mar 19, 2000 6:52pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] our mana boost at DS Dear Group, You might like to see what one of our readers (evidently a great dhamma reader!) wrote in our guestbook at DS , the section called 'From Our Readers', then click on the 'guestbook' sign with the flowers! I am correcting the English spelling mistakes with the invaluable help of Tom, who has also helped me cut the loading time by at least 30% (by using the services of a free website called Website Garage, for those interested), which I am sure will please our regular visitors. My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course the guestbook! With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?), Amara ______________________________________________________ 191 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 20, 2000 5:41am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina W. Dear friends in the dhamma, This morning Tanarong e-mailed me some bad news about our friend Nina Wimuttikosol in Nakorn Phanom, who has had quite a serious but luckily not life-threatening traffic accident and is presently hospitalized at the local institution. One really never knows what will happen the next instant, it really is aniccata, as K. Sujin tells us, Amara 192 From: Mike Potter Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 10:51am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Hi! I just joined this group and want to introduce myself. I've read many of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear. I've recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process of getting a wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get permission to do so. There are extensive offerings there and I invite you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness. It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) With metta, Mike Potter 193 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 3:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina W. Amara, Thanks for the information about Nina W. I have emailed Tanarong for more details and a possible contact number. Like you said, we never know what will happen at the next instant. On the same day as I received your message I also heard from an acquaintance whom we met in Indonesia at the time I had my own bad news last August. She wrote to say she had just finished 3 months' radiation therapy after surgery for breast cancer - all in the time since we had last had contact in October! I was thinking the other day about health as one of the worldy conditions. I find this helpful, because the other pleasant worldy conditions are all things we readily accept as being fleeting, occasional or something that comes to us by chance. Health is no different from these. Yet somehow we tend think of bodily health as a state that, if we do the right things, is achievable on a long-term basis. Jonothan >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina W. >Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:41:34 PST > > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >This morning Tanarong e-mailed me some bad news about our friend Nina >Wimuttikosol in Nakorn Phanom, who has had quite a serious but luckily not >life-threatening traffic accident and is presently hospitalized at the >local >institution. > >One really never knows what will happen the next instant, it really is >aniccata, as K. Sujin tells us, > >Amara ______________________________________________________ 194 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 9:30am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello! >I've read many >of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear. I've >recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in >allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my >website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of >resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process of getting a >wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and >Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get >permission to do so. There are extensive offerings there and I invite >you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > >I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding >there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > Hi, mike, Welcome! I am in charge of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation's website, and fellow member of this discussion group. If you like books by Nina you will really enjoy visiting our website, we have quite a few plus several articles, and will be adding some more. We also have several parts of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's masterpiece, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced section which contain detailed explanations about the citta, plus a brand new article called 'Kammasakata-nana' which I highly recommend if you are interested in the bhavanga citta and rebirth, precisely. In fact I look forward to hearing your comments about the whole thing, including the children's section (just a trial run!), for my part I will immediately visit your site! I look forward to exchanging our views on dhamma points also, Amara ______________________________________________________ 195 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 10:08am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina W. >Yet somehow we >tend think of bodily health as a state that, if we do the right things, is >achievable on a long-term basis. Jonothan, That is quite natural, I think, we all still have the misconcept of the self who can control our health which can only be eradicated at the level of the sotapanna, after all we have accumulated the attachment to the self over such a long period. We all have lived with the self for much longer than we ever did in the times of the teachings. Even if we were present at all the Buddhas' times, their teachings last for such an infinitessimal period compared to the times of ignorance in between. I hate to sound self-congratulating all the time, but we are really lucky to be born while the teachings are still available and quite complete, despite the developing corruptions. The thing is to make the most of it while we can, we can never tell what we have in store for our next lives, or even this one, one moment to the next. It is so encouraging to think that sati can arise at any time or place with the right conditions! Amara ______________________________________________________ 196 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:10pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello! Mike, Welcome to the list. I will certainly check out your website. We look forward to your seeing your comments or questions on the list. Jonothan >From: "Mike Potter" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:51:38 -0800 > > >Hi! > >I just joined this group and want to introduce myself. I've read many >of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear. I've >recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in >allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my >website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of >resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process of getting a >wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and >Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get >permission to do so. There are extensive offerings there and I invite >you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > >I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding >there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > >With metta, > >Mike Potter > ______________________________________________________ 197 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:16am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality >I, too, find all the reminders coming through a great help. > >Jonothan >PS I have received the tape. Anumodana to you and your mother, to whom I >send my best regards. It is classic Khun Sujin stuff with, as always, a >slightly different emphasis. Many thanks. Jonothan, what is the slightly different emphasis you heard? May we all share in this? And anything else you found especially helpful in summary form pls! Sarah ______________________________________________________ 198 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:25am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: our mana boost at DS >My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to >show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course >the >guestbook! > >With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?), >Amara Amara, look f/w to catching up w/the additions shortly. Our move is on April 4th and when I'm not working I'm supervising workmen and all the rest...a real test of patience and equanimity (which I don't always pass!...different moments!) pls would you tell her about how this discussion group is going too. She always encourages me and everyone else to talk and write about daily life experiences as dhamma students....this was in my mind when we decided to start the group! Sarah ______________________________________________________ 199 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:41am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mike's Hello! Mike, glad you've found us and introduced yrself. Actually there are some other new members who prefer to 'lurk' in the background which is fine....but an occasional 'hello' or quick intro so people know you're w/us would be appreciated by all I'm sure....! Yr note reminds me that we should pass on the listserve address to Nina Van G. Even tho' she doesn't have internet, she can pass it on to anyonw who writes to her or asks qus she's too busy to answer. Alan, pls add a link for Mike and others from time to time as Amara does! (or Amara, maybe you can give his link too, now you're so computerliterate!) Mike, like Jonothan & Amara, I look f/w to yr questions, comments or answers! ..and also look f/w to checking yr link SOON! Sarah > > >Hi! > >I just joined this group and want to introduce myself. I've read many >of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear. I've >recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in >allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my >website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of >resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process of getting a >wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and >Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get >permission to do so. There are extensive offerings there and I invite >you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > >I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding >there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > >With metta, > >Mike Potter > ______________________________________________________ 200 From: Mike Potter Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 8:29pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhavanga-cittas Dear Friends, Thanks, Amara, for pointing me to Kammasakata-Nana by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. It is excellent. I became interested in the Bhavanga a few months ago when a friend asked several questions about it. Those questions prompted my further study and refelection. I'd like to share with you the responses I gave to him, which were largely based on Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" edited by Bhiikkhu Bodhi. If I have missed the mark in any respect, I would be grateful for your comments. Perhaps this will spawn further discussion on this or related topics. (1) How does the Bhavanga relate to the 5 aggregates? There are four ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas): Consciousness (citta), Mental Formations (cetasikas), Materiality (rupa) and the Unconditioned (Nibbana). This is all there is. Everything that exists fits within one or more of these realities,including the Bhavanga. The first three are conditional realities that can also be grouped as nama-rupa. In terms of the human experience in the sense-sphere, nama-rupa consists of the Five Aggregates of Form (Materiality), Feelings, Perception, Mental Formations, and Consciousness. The middle three aggregates are, in the Abhidhamma, all included within the category of Mental Formations. Mental Formations (aka Mental Factors) are the mental states that arise along with consciousness, performing diverse functions. For those who have taken rebirth, Consciousness can be classified by function into three types: rebirth-linking patisandhi-citta), life-continuum (bhavanga-citta), and dying-consciousness (cuti-citta). The Bhavanga is a "state of consciousness," classified by way of function, and not a thing, a place or an "organ" of the mind or body. It has no separate existence apart from Consciousness itself. As Consciousness, it is one of the Five Aggregates. (2) How can it be part of the aggregate Consciousness, when it has sense impressions (content) while Consciousness only illuminates? Perhaps, the Bhavanga is part of mental formations? Perhaps we think of the term "Bhavanga" too narrowly when we parse everything but pure Consciousness. Just as the components of nama-rupa can be discussed individually, but nama cannot function without rupa, and vice versa, neither can the Bhavanga, as a function of Consciousness, carry out its function without its concomitant Mental Factors (including Volition) and the effects of the (up to 24) factors that condition each moment of Consciousness (including Kamma.) The Bhavanga merely performs the function of life-continuum: keeping the life force in continual existence throughout one's given life span when the cittas of the mind-door process and the sense-door process have fallen away, by arising with its object (which is the same as the object of the patisandhi-citta of that lifetime), then passing away and conditioning the arising of the next bhavanga-citta, and so on, until the next mind-door or sense-door process begins. It is somewhat like putting your hand in water. The water is displaced by your hand when it is put in, and the space occupied by your hand is immediately occupied by water when your hand is removed. There is never a time when there is not either water or your hand in that space. As for having sense impressions (content), I understand that some teachers say that the kammic potential is contained in the Bhavanga; others say it is included in the Mental Factor called "life faculty." In his recent book, "Kamma, Rebirth, Samsara," (The Wheel #425/427) Ashin Ottama made the following comment on this point, and I am inclined to agree with him: "I personally believe that the whole kammic potential as well as all mental defilements are passed down through the conditional relationship between successive mind-moments. In fact, I would say that kamma and the defilements are the conditioning process itself. Some teachers might say this is very unlikely, even impossible, as we have so much past kamma, but I do not think the "total" kammic imprint need be extremely complicated. Consider, for example, that we can achieve all the colours of the world just by mixing the three primary colours." So, if Conditions are "shaped" by one's past accumulations, then the impact of such conditions on each successive mind-moment will effectively "transmit" the sense impressions (content) to the next mind-moment, including those mind-moments which are carried on in the state of Bhavanga between moments of the mind-door and sense-door processes. (3) If the unconsciousness mental impressions in the Bhavanga rise and fall, but not to Consciousness, what then do they rise to? Perhaps, Mental Formations may be conscious, preconscious, or unconscious? I think this has already been answered in (2) above. 201 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 8:30pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello! Dear Mike, Im very glad to see you join up. I've actually been expecting you as I saw your posting on the Pali group a couple of weeks ago where you referred to Zolag and Nina. I could tell you were diligent and would wonder about the cryptic DSDG on the Dhamma study site. And thanks for putting links to your web site. I saw the book recommendations - for Cetasikas and Abhidhamma In daily life-from you and another of your friends. Dear Jonathon, It is so true how our bodies are just as fragile as any other wordly condition. Consider seeing. We are used to seeing, take it for granted. But each moment is conditioned. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. No one can slow this process down- it happens continuosly whether we are in the human realm, or apaya or animal or even Gods. For a moment of seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma done in some previous life ( it could be kamma done aeons ago). But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas too only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Thus, it seems to me, when I reflect about this, that it is surprising that the body can keep going at all. No one could control such an intricate mass of fluxing conditions. We live in a happy realm so we want these conditions to continue. Those in apaya wish for the conditions to cease. And so samsara goes on. Robert > > I just joined this group and want to introduce > myself. I've read many > of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to > be very clear. I've > recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller > has been helpful in > allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in > Daily Life on my > website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a > number of > resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process > of getting a > wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the > Bhavanga and > Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as > I can get > permission to do so. There are extensive offerings > there and I invite > you to explore it > (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > > I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation > techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there > is no understanding > there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > > With metta, > > Mike Potter > > 202 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:01pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: our mana boost at DS >She >always encourages me and everyone else to talk and write about daily life >experiences as dhamma students....this was in my mind when we decided to >start the group! >Sarah She will be so happy to hear this, she has always anumodana with the group's kusala cetana! Thanks, Sarah, Amara ______________________________________________________ 203 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mike's Hello! >(or Amara, maybe you can >give his link too, now you're so computerliterate!) > >Mike, like Jonothan & Amara, I look f/w to yr questions, comments or >answers! ..and also look f/w to checking yr link SOON! I would be glad to, just tell me what to say in the description box- but it's so easy to do, just go to the links page on DSDG at and type the URL and the descriptions in the appropriate boxes and click the ADD URL button, and presto! Zap away! Amara ______________________________________________________ 204 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:42pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Thanks, Amara, for pointing me to Kammasakata-Nana by Sujin >Boriharnwanaket. It is excellent. Mike, I am glad you liked Kammasakata-Nana. I would like to recommend some more: if you find the time to read the rest of the advanced section, I don't think you will have any more questions about the bhavanga or any other type of citta, for example, when you say, >(1) How does the Bhavanga relate to the 5 aggregates? towards the end of Part I of the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' you will find The Four Paramattha-dhamma Defined by Khandha Citta is vinnana-khandha Cetasika is vedana-khandha, sanna-khandha, sankhara-khandha Rupa is rupa-khandha Nibbana is not khandha. It is khandha-vimutti or emancipation from khandha. The Three Paramattha-dhamma as Five Khandha Citta-paramattha 81 or 121 All are vinnana-khandha. Cetasika-paramattha 52 The vedana-cetasika is vedana-khandha The sanna-cetasika is sanna-khandha 50 cetasikas are sankhara-khandha Rupa-paramattha 28 All are rupa-khandha. The Five Khandha as Three Paramattha-dhamma Rupa-khandha is 28 Rupa paramattha Vedana-khandha is 1 vedana-cetasika Sanna-khandha is 1 sanna-cetasika 52 cetasikas Sankhara-khandha is 50 cetasikas Vinnana-khandha is 89 citta-paramattha or 121 citta-paramattha As to the different functions of the citta, they are more numerous than just three or five: at the end of Citta ch 6 in the second part of 'Summary' you will find: SUMMARY OF THE FUNCTIONS OF CITTA There are 14 kiccas (function) of citta comprising: 1. Patisandhi-kicca is the function of continuity after cuti-kicca. The Citta that can perform patisandhi-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta, namely 10 kamavacara-vipaka-citta 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-ccitta 2. Bhavanga-kicca is the function of life continuum, keeping that lifetime. The citta that perform bhavanga-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta. Whichever vipaka-citta performs the patisandhi-kicca, the same kind of vipaka-citta would arise to perform bhavanga-kicca sequentially, after the patisandhi-citta has fallen away, until the vithi-citta arise through one dvara or another. Then when the vithi-citta through the dvara fall away, the bhavanga-Citta would always arise in continuation until cuti (death). 3. Avajjana-kicca is the function of adverting to the arammana in contact with the dvara. It is the first vithi-citta to arise through one of the six dvara. The citta that perform avajjana-kicca are the two kiriya-citta, namely: The panca-dvaravajjana-citta The mano-dvaravajjana-citta 4. Dassana-kicca is the function of seeing. There are two vipaka-citta that perform dassana-kicca, namely The cakkhu-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The cakkhu-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 5. Savana-kicca is the function of hearing. There are two vipaka-citta that perform savana-kicca, namely The sota-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The sota-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 6. Ghayana-kicca is the function of smelling. There are two vipaka-citta that perform ghayana-kicca, namely The ghana-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The ghana-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 7. Sayana-kicca is the function of tasting. There are two vipaka-citta that perform sayana-kicca, namely The jivha-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The jivha-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 8. Phussana-kicca is the function of knowing bodysense contact. There are two vipaka-citta that perform phussana-kicca, namely The kaya-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The kaya-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 9. Sampaticchanna-kicca is the function of receiving arammana from the davi-panca-vinnana There are two vipaka-Citta that perform sampaticchanna-kicca, namely The sampaticchanna akusala-vipaka-citta The sampaticchanna kusala-vipaka-citta 10. Santirana-kicca is the function of examining arammana appearing through the five dvara. There are three vipaka-Citta that perform santirana-kicca, namely The upekkha-santirana akusala-vipaka-citta The upekkha-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta The somanassa-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta 11. Votthabbana-kicca is the function of determining the arammana to make one of the kinds of javana-citta arise through the panca-dvara. The citta that performs this function is the kiriya-citta, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta. 12. Javana-kicca is the function of running through the arammana or absorbing the arammana. There are 55 citta that perform javana-kicca, namely 12 akusala-citta 1 ahetuka-citta (hasituppada-citta) 8 kamavacara-kusala-citta 8 kamavacara-kiriya-citta 5 rupa-vacara-kusala-citta 5 rupa-vacara-kiriya-citta 4 arupa-vacara-kusala-citta 4 arupa-vacara-kiriya-citta 8 lokuttara-citta 13. Tadalambana-kicca is the function of knowing the arammana in continuation from the javana-citta. There are 11 vipaka-citta that perform tadalambana-kicca, namely 3 santirana-citta 8 kamavacara sahetuka kusala-vipaka-citta 14. Cuti-kicca is the function of leaving that being, that lifetime. When the cuti-citta that had arisen to do its duty of leaving that lifetime and fallen away, death occurs, completely ending that state of being that person. The citta that perform cuti-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta of the same kind as the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-citta. When a certain kind of vipaka-citta had performed the patisandhi-kicca, that very same kind of vipaka-citta would perform the bhavanga-kicca and the cuti-kicca also. Altogether 89 kinds of citta perform 14 kiccas. Patisandhi-citta assembles the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma for which there are paccaya to arise and evolve in a being, in a lifetime, according to the strength and type of the specific patisandhi-citta. The citta that perform the function of patisandhi in the 11 kama-bhumi are the 10 vipaka-citta comprising The upekkha-santirana akusala-vipaka-citta The upekkha-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta The 8 kamavacara sahetuka kusala-vipaka-citta (maha-vipaka) The upekkha-santirana-akusala-vipaka-citta is the result of an akusala-kamma that performs the patisandhi-kicca in the four apaya-bhumi or birth in hell, birth as a peta, birth as an asurakaya, or birth as an animal. The upekkha-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta is the result of kusala-kamma of a weaker kind that performs the patisandhi-kicca in the human plane and the lowest plane of heaven, the Jatumaharajika, with the interference of akusala kamma, which causes innate disabilities, such as madness, muteness, blindness and deafness. The 8 maha-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the human and 6 heavenly planes according to the strength and sublimity of the specific kusala-kamma. The 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the 15 rupa-brahma planes according to the level of the specific rupa-vacara-kusala, which are the causes. The 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the 4 arupa-brahma planes according to the level of the specific arupa-vacara-kusala, which are the causes. As to the 11 citta that perform tadalambana-kicca, they can only arise in the sequence of kama-javana-vithi in the kama-bhumi, never in a higher plane, such as the rupa-brahma- or the arupa-brahma-bhumi. There are 2 kinds of citta, the upekkha-santirana-akusala-vipaka-citta and the upekkha-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta, that can perform 5 functions. There are 8 kinds of citta, the maha-vipaka-citta, that can perform 4 functions. There are 9 kinds of citta, the 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta and the 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-Citta, that can perform 3 functions. There are 2 kinds of citta, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta and somanassa-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta, that can perform 2 functions. All the rest of the citta can only perform one specific function. These are just the summary of parts of the 'Summary'! For a more thorough explanation, read the rest of Part II and see if you do not agree with anything, then we can discuss the problem. You will see that all the explanations are from the tipitaka or the commentaries, and not beyond comprehension, it's even kind of fun! Enjoy! ( advanced section, Summary...) Amara ______________________________________________________ 205 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 2:49pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >These are just the summary of parts of the 'Summary'! For a more thorough >explanation, read the rest of Part II and see if you do not agree with >anything, then we can discuss the problem. You will see that all the >explanations are from the tipitaka or the commentaries, and not beyond >comprehension, it's even kind of fun! >Enjoy! ( advanced section, Summary...) >Amara Amara, Some people have a wierd idea of fun! Getting back to the Kammasakata-Nana, I also found the article interesting. What translation would you give for that term? I have not come across it before. jonothan ______________________________________________________ 206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents >Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due >to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika. Every moment has its >characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating >distracts from knowing the moment for what it is. If the moments of dosa >or >lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual >understanding of their characteristics? The stories that cita/cetasiaka >create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not. Is >the >answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is >or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story? >Ivan Ivan I agree. And I think that thinking in terms of success or failure has in particular a large element of mana to it ie, a particlar type of lobha citta. Otherwise the association with/lack of association with the desired would be just that and the 'story' would be so much less. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 207 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:37pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless >There is a lot in the suttas about leading the HOMELESS life. Does anyone >know what this means? Also there was a disciple who never slept in the same >place twice, what is the achievment of this? > >Cheers, Alan Alan, I believe it refers, on one level, to the fact that use of the requisites is restricted by the rules of the Order, and on another level, as Robert has said, to renunciation of/lack of attachment to one's "own" place and family. On the other point (not sleeping in the same place twice), I suppose it reflects his adherence to certain dhutanga's. Not recommended for lay people! How does the question arise? jonothan ______________________________________________________ 208 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:43pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article >Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time >to read it and can give some comments and criticism I >would much appreciate it. Robert Have just read your article. Interesting and well-written. You have a good style. Do keep up the writing. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 209 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 4:05pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Health/Caught up in the story >Dear Jonothon, >I am very happy to hear about the progress in your >health. >Robert Robert, Thanks for that. We were surprised at the extent of the apparent improvement. On the question of health, I have just spoken to Nina in Nakorn Phanom. She left hospital yesterday after an 8-day stay. Fractured pelvic bone and fractures to left hand and right arm. Needs a walking frame to get around. Obviously in some discomfort still, but hopeful for a good receovery. (Her driver fell asleep at the wheel.) For those who don't know Nina, she was a regular attender at Khun Sujin discussions in Bangkok back in the mid-late 70's. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 210 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 5:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Mike and Amara, Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. Please keep it up! To a lot of people this type of topic seems too theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct experience of the present moment then why mess around thinking about such difficult things(so many technical terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer less study. But I find that most of us need to know the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one who has listened much) just out of endearment. A couple of points: Mike - Most of your reply was fine. But rupa is not included within nama-dhamma. As insight develops the characteristics of the various types of dhammas are more and more clearly experienced. At the first stage of vipassana , Namarupa parrichedda -nana it is clearly seen (as the scriptures explain) that nama is an entirely different type of reality from rupa. The Buddha classified dhammas in different ways: the five KHANDAS, the AYATANAS, and the DHATUS. These are different ways of classifying nama and rupa. When we learn about the 5 khandas nama is classified as citta, vedana, sankhara, and sanna. This detailed way of considering nama helps us to distinguish the varied characteristics of namas more clearly.If we consider the ayatanas (usually translated as sense fields)then rupa is explained in more detail - thus it helps us to distinguish the various characteristics and functions of rupa. With the dhatus, elements, both nama and rupa are classified in detail. None of these classifications are philosophical devices - they are descriptions of dhammas. They point directly at what is real and happening now ( I know you understand this but it is useful to repeat it for anyone who may be beginning Buddhist studies and it also reminds me to study dhammas directly). On the topic of Bhavanga here are some notes that I have from a new book by Sujin Boriharnwanaket - Realities and Concepts - that will be published in Bangkok next month. Here she briefly explains the difference between vitthi cittas and bhavanga cittas. What is important to remember is that all these cittas - whether bhavanga or vitthi are happening at this moment. No one can control them(in fact how many people have even the slightest inkling of their function and characteristic let alone having any control over them).. "Sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas: When a sense object, which is rúpa, impinges on one of the sensedoors, it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense-door process. Counting from the "past bhavanga", there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1.atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga). 2.bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga). 3.bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door. 4.five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pañcadvåråvajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta. 5.sense-cognition (dvi-pañcaviññåùa, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipåkacitta. 6.receiving-consciousness (sampaìicchana-citta), which is vipåkacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santírana-citta) which is vipåkacitta. 8.determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15 seven javana-cittas ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats). 16.registering-consciousness (tadårammaùa-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipåka citta. 17. registering-consciousness. After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away. Before the mind-door process begins there are bhavanga-cittas and the last two of these are specifically designated by a name. There are the following cittas: bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (which is, in this case, the mind-door through which the cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta) which is kiriyacitta Seven javana-cittas Two tadårammaùa-cittas (which may or may not arise). After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga-cittas again. The cittas of the eye-door process, namely the eye-door adverting-consciousness, seeing-consciousness, receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness, determining-consciousness, the javana-cittas and the tadålambana-cittas (retention), experience visible object which has not fallen away yet. They do not have a concept as object. The cittas of the ear-door process experience sound which has not fallen away yet, they do not have a concept as object. It is the same with the cittas of the nose-door process, the tongue-door process and the body-door process. When the víthi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind-door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of víthi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two moments of tadålambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a “whole”) on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds of mind-door process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of something, they know words and names. In between the different series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rúpa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the víthi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, people and different things, then the cittas have paññattis, concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is." Robert 211 From: amara chay Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 0:07pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Getting back to the Kammasakata-Nana, I also found the article interesting. >What translation would you give for that term? I have not come across it >before. Jonothan, Most of the terms now have their proper translation juxtaposed in brackets now, (with the help of Robert!) if you'll look it over again on the net, but kammasako= one has one's own kamma; and nana is of course knowledge starting with the nama rupa pariccedayana realizatioon onwards. Do take a look at our 'new+improved' article, you'll find it a lot easier to read, and -- fun too!?! Sorry, my lobha is showing! Amara ______________________________________________________ 212 From: amara chay Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 0:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless Alan, It just crossed my mind that the term 'anagami' also means one without a home. Could you perhaps share with us one of the suttas you mentioned? Amara ______________________________________________________ 213 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 3:25am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Robert, Thank you for your thorough reply. Sujin Boriharnwanaket's description of the sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas is the clearest I've ever read and cleared up some subtle points for me (e.g., the precise way in which the mind-door process is conditioned by the sense-door process in conceptualizing sensory stimula, and the role of each citta in such processes). It is rare to see explanations with such attention to detail and with such clarity. I'm looking forward to reading her new book. Will you announce when/where it is available? Mike robert kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike and Amara, > Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. > Please keep it up! > To a lot of people this type of topic seems too > theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct > experience of the present moment then why mess around > thinking about such difficult things(so many technical > terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some > have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer > less study. But I find that most of us need to know > the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they > help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The > Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one > who has listened much) just out of endearment. > 214 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 10:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket Dear Mike and everyone, I have a copy on file of Realties and Concepts and am sending it to Alan weller to put on his site (assuming he wants to). I am going to pick up a hundred or so paper copies when I visit Thailand in late August and intend to mail these to anyone who wants a copy - you can have as many as you want. It is an important book . Only 65 pages but so pithy and yet clear enough for those who already have a background in Buddhism. Lodewijk, Nina van Gorkoms husband, read the manuscript a couple of years ago and considered it so vital that he suggested Nina should summarize it and put the summary as an introduction to some of her books. But I gather that this is not easily done. A section or two could be left out but that still leaves over 30 pages- still too long for an introduction. By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and ask any questions you might have. Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about this Khun Amara? Robert --- Mike Potter wrote: > > Robert, > > Thank you for your thorough reply. Sujin > Boriharnwanaket's description > of the sense-door process and mind-door process of > cittas is the > clearest I've ever read and cleared up some subtle > points for me (e.g., > the precise way in which the mind-door process is > conditioned by the > sense-door process in conceptualizing sensory > stimula, and the role of > each citta in such processes). > It is rare to see explanations with such attention > to detail and with > such clarity. I'm looking forward to reading her > new book. Will you > announce when/where it is available? > > Mike 215 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 10:52am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket Dear Robert, I would gladly put a copy on my site (The Ganges Sangha). It would be a welcome addition to the Abhidhamma Resources collected there. If you think that would be suitable, please send it on. Also, if you or any of the other list members have any further suggestions for my Abhidhamma Resources page, I would be grateful to hear from you. You can check out the page at http://personal.mem.bells/ outh.net/mem/m/i/mikep/abhidham.html Mike robert kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike and everyone, > I have a copy on file of Realties and Concepts and am > sending it to Alan weller to put on his site (assuming > he wants to). I am going to pick up a hundred or so > paper copies when I visit Thailand in late August and > intend to mail these to anyone who wants a copy - you > can have as many as you want. > > It is an important book . Only 65 pages but so pithy > and yet clear enough for those who already have a > background in Buddhism. Lodewijk, Nina van Gorkoms > husband, read the manuscript a couple of years ago and > considered it so vital that he suggested Nina should > summarize it and put the summary as an introduction to > some of her books. But I gather that this is not > easily done. A section or two could be left out but > that still leaves over 30 pages- still too long for an > introduction. > > By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next > month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as > well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to > live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and > ask any questions you might have. > > Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late > december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my > mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about > this Khun Amara? > > > Robert > 216 From: amara chay Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 4:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: K. S.'s trips and talks >By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next >month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as >well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to >live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and >ask any questions you might have. > >Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late >december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my >mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about >this Khun Amara? Dear friends in the dhamma, The itinerary of the California trip is in the 'newsletter' section at , please check on it now and then because there might be some changes later on. As soon as I receive the dates and details of her Sri Lanka trip I will put that up as well, but yes, there definitely is something planned, and she will be glad to hear that your mother will be coming with you, Robert! Amara ______________________________________________________ 217 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 0:20am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Dear Amara, I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a good place to start. Mike PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to share the Dhamma. Thank you! "amara chay" wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/?start=1 63 > (I would also like to > >order a > >copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) > Jonothan, > I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to you > myself. 218 From: amara chay Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 5:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin >Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a >catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a >good place to start. >PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" >that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma >Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. >I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are >available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to >share the Dhamma. Thank you! Mike, Anumodana with your kusala cetana. When we started the website we thought that even if only one person would profit from it in any way, it would already be worth all our effort, so in a way you have already fulfilled part of our aim. The other part is to digitize all books ever published by the foundation and make them available on the site, as well as provide the vocal recordings on line, the latter of which is still being studied. The third aim is precisely what you were asking about, books and tapes for purchase, though the lists are still being prepared with some difficulty because of some internal rules of the foundation, I regret to say. I'm sorry we sound so disorganized, but personally I only handle the web side of it! The tape Jonothan got was in Thai, none of Khun Sujin's (as we call her here at DSDG) tapes have been translated yet to my knowledge (there are thousands, from which the materials for her books were taken) although Jonothan and Robert might be able to get you some tapes where she was speaking in English, mostly in discussions they or their friends had with her. Nina van Gorkom might also be able to provide you with some English tapes. But generally I think the deeper teachings on the Abhidhamma were in Thai. If you have time, I would really recommend you take Robert's advice and join some of the discussions she will be attending in America, and ask her whatever you want, she enjoys questions about the dhamma more than anything and I myself have never met anyone who could answer my questions with, as you observed in so short a time, such clarity and precision. She was born to be a teacher of the dhamma, (which is such an intricate and complex affair that the Buddha almost decided against teaching it at all, remember?), has been tirelessly teaching it for over forty years, nearly half a century, and in my opinion, any chance to listen to her in person should not be missed. And take a amall recorder, everyone wants to record her wonderful voice themselves, and no one will stop you from doing so, they will rather encourage you to! You will find that she is a lovely person in person, as well as an incomparable teacher. She makes learning a pleasure, at least for me! Amara ______________________________________________________ 219 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 0:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Robert, Mike, Amara,, I'd like to encourage you all in yr 'meaty' chats.....Personally, I think it's helpful and 'healthy' to have the 'meaty' and the less 'meaty' and both are very welcome and very useful! I find it helpful to remember that the purpose of so many different classifications and especially of classifications of the same realities in different ways is to help us understand the 'anattaness' of all realities...different classifications help different people to appreciate this. This is the real purpose of the study of abhidhamma..to eliminate wrong view and help us develop more understanding of ' not self now' ! Keep up the good work! Sarah > >Dear Mike and Amara, >Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. >Please keep it up! >To a lot of people this type of topic seems too >theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct >experience of the present moment then why mess around >thinking about such difficult things(so many technical >terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some >have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer >less study. But I find that most of us need to know >the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they >help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The >Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one >who has listened much) just out of endearment. ______________________________________________________ 220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 4:52pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear sarah, Right, it helps us to understand anatta intellectually. More importantly each term in the Abhidhamma points directly to an actual reality, its function and its characteristic. Without knowing something of Abhidhamma, Dhamma practice is like wandering in a forest looking for something but knowing what. If we apply the knowledge of Abhidhamma correctly we see that every tree, every plant, every leaf and even the ground we walk on is a treasure. The classifications are precise descriptions of different aspects of realities. Unfortunately some who study Abhidhamma miss the point. They may be very sincere but tend to see it as a sort of academic study lke chemistry. They think that if they can sort it all out in a systematic way then panna (wisdom) will somehow pop up. They consider the Dhamma but never get around to really testing it- this is one extreme. Thus teachers such as Khun Sujin have to repeat again and again that the descriptions apply to realities that are appearing now. On the other hand some are put off by the seeming technicality of Abhidhamma and once they have some intellectual acceptance of anatta they think this is sufficient knowledge. From then on all they want to do is study dhammas, realities, directly. But I think this can also be an extreme. The Abhidhamma is just so complete: by continuing to learn more, at the same time that we apply the teachings directly, we may well find that the Abhidhamma very naturally inclines the mind to understand and experience different aspects of dhammas. Aspects that might remain hidden if it were not for the additional study. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Robert, Mike, Amara,, > I'd like to encourage you all in yr 'meaty' > chats.....Personally, I think > it's helpful and 'healthy' to have the 'meaty' and > the less 'meaty' and both > are very welcome and very useful! > > I find it helpful to remember that the purpose of so > many different > classifications and especially of classifications of > the same realities in > different ways is to help us understand the > 'anattaness' of all > realities...different classifications help different > people to appreciate > this. This is the real purpose of the study of > abhidhamma..to eliminate > wrong view and help us develop more understanding of > ' not self now' ! Keep > up the good work! > > Sarah > > > >Dear Mike and Amara, > >Great to see you both getting into some meaty > stuff. > >Please keep it up! > >To a lot of people this type of topic seems too > >theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is > direct > >experience of the present moment then why mess > around > >thinking about such difficult things(so many > technical > >terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some > >have the tendency to study and practice. Others > prefer > >less study. But I find that most of us need to know > >the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as > they > >help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. > The > >Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta > (one > >who has listened much) just out of endearment. 221 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:09pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sri Lanka Dear group, It seems that there will be a Dhamma trip to Sri lanka at the end of this year or early next year. Not certain yet . The last time Khun Sujin went was before the violence started - about 20 years ago. But it seems that it was a beneficial trip for many people. I read that the President of Sri lanka at that time, Premadasa(since killed by a bomb)opened the meeting. It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise to invite any politicians with the current situation- at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who went on the last trip it might be worthwhile contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas writings- most educated peole have no problem with English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to print some for free distribution? They are always printing books in Thailand but somehow they always seem to run out of the English editions. This is all slightly premature, considering the dates are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. Robert __________________________________________________ 222 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 9:04pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Robert, I concur. One must be skillful in one's practice - to balance conceptual knowledge with practical application so that the often subtle realities can reveal themselves to one's direct experience through the development of wisdom. As Sarah has said, the "meaty" and the "non-meaty" must be balanced - for the meaty is in the non-meaty, and the non-meaty is in the meaty. It may be helpful to remember that even the Abhidhamma is only the raft, and must not be clung to if one is to reach the other shore. Yet it facilitates a smoother and more direct journey than would be possible without it. Studying the Abhidhamma has deepened my practice tremendously. Yet the practice itself is so much more; it requires the skillful application and balancing of all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is through the diligent application of these path factors that wisdom arises. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a wonderful book on the Noble Eightfold Path. His last chapter on Wisdom describes how the path factors converge, in mutual support for and with one another, into the four supramundane paths which perform the special task of eradicating the defilements. You can view this chapter at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/mis c/waytoend.html#ch8 Mike > On the other hand some are put off by the seeming > technicality of Abhidhamma and once they have some > intellectual acceptance of anatta they think this is > sufficient knowledge. From then on all they want to do > is study dhammas, realities, directly. But I think > this can also be an extreme. The Abhidhamma is just so > complete: by continuing to learn more, at the same > time that we apply the teachings directly, we may well > find that the Abhidhamma very naturally inclines the > mind to understand and experience different aspects of > dhammas. Aspects that might remain hidden if it were > not for the additional study. 223 From: Bev Westheimer Date: Tue Mar 21, 2000 1:26am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] re: our mana boost at DS On Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:52 AM, amara chay wrote: > >Date: 19-Mar-2000 10:52:39 >From: amara chay >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] our mana boost at DS > >Dear Group, > >You might like to see what one of our readers (evidently a great dhamma >reader!) wrote in our guestbook at DS , the >section called 'From Our Readers', then click on the 'guestbook' sign with >the flowers! > >I am correcting the English spelling mistakes with the invaluable help of >Tom, who has also helped me cut the loading time by at least 30% (by using >the services of a free website called Website Garage, > for those interested), >which I am sure will please our regular visitors. > >My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to >show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course the >guestbook! > >With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?), >Amara >______________________________________________________ > Amara: Tom has downloaded the article for me to "edit" ... I am not sure exactly what you would like me to do because on first very quick reading it seems pretty good -- they are some little things , for example: instead of saying "fast asleep" one would say "asleep" and instead of saying "wake up" it might me better to say "awake", but I don't know if that is what you are looking for, as in some ways they are "trivial" corrections. Anyway, let me know 224 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 4:55pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Without knowing >something of Abhidhamma, Dhamma practice is like >wandering in a forest looking for something but >knowing what. If we apply the knowledge of Abhidhamma >correctly we see that every tree, every plant, every >leaf and even the ground we walk on is a treasure. I don't quite agree with Robert here, I think the direct experience is absolutely essential to the study of realities, with the right understanding of realities as they really are, I think it can go beyond classifications, how else can people who only hear one word of the dhamma become enlightened? Where would they have had the time to classify anything if not through the direct experiencing through sati patthana of the immediate moment? With the right understanding when you walk through the woods, you really see things as they are without calling them anything, which doesn't mean you don't see their true nature; it's just that you can't communicate with anyone about it because you don't know the technical terms. And of course there days it may require much more study to be able to attain any level of knowledge. The technical terms are essential when you want to find out more in every detail possible theoretically as well as through direct experience, then you learn the language in order to understand the explanations. But if you cannot relate the knowledge to ralities all you have are lists of Pali terms, numbers and descriptions -- but when lobha arises you don't realize if it is accompanied by moha or ditthi or neither. Those whose sati arises to know that instant of citta would be able to distinquish this to some extent but would not know how to describe their feelings or tell you how deep their sati was, they just know it. One set back I think is that before realization arises of the true nature of things, one is prone to uncertainty as to the characteristics of, for example, the eyedoor, the seeing and the object seen, and one would be without the support of the intricate theoretical description the Buddha was alone in the world to have given. As Sarah said, the ideal situation would be to have both, with as much of each as is suited to the individual's accumulations. Amara ______________________________________________________ 225 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka >It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as >many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise >to invite any politicians with the current situation- >at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can >contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of >Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who >went on the last trip it might be worthwhile >contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps >think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas >writings- most educated peole have no problem with >English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to >print some for free distribution? They are always >printing books in Thailand but somehow they always >seem to run out of the English editions. >This is all slightly premature, considering the dates >are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. >Robert Robert, What a great idea, it is very thoughtful of you to prepare in advance! Please let me know if I can help, although Kanha will probably be handling most of the printing side as always. Why don't you tell K.S. about it already so that the English books they are printing for the opening of the foundation building could perhaps be done in greater number to include ones to be taken to S.L.? That would be much simpler than to reprint them later on, I would think. As for other books you might want to take along, you can arrange them later, but these are being done now, so you'd bettr contact them right away. Amara ______________________________________________________ 226 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:51pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: re: our mana boost at DS >Amara: Tom has downloaded the article for me to "edit" ... I am not sure >exactly what you would like me to do because on first very quick reading >it seems pretty good -- they are some little things , for example: >instead of saying "fast asleep" one would say "asleep" and instead of >saying "wake up" it might me better to say "awake", but I don't know if >that is what you are looking for, as in some ways they are "trivial" >corrections. Anyway, let me know Bev, Would it be all right if I asked you to do something else for the moment? Could you please look over our latest translations of K. S.'s book parts 4,5, and 7 which I will send you via e-mail attachments, for any mistakes and improvement to be done before I put it in the website? The ones you were looking at could be done later, generally it would only be spell checking, I didn't want the mistakes to be taken for some Pali words. But these new articles were translated by me and I need to see if you can understand the language as well as the content. Please look for them in your e-mail attachment, I will send them right away. Amara ______________________________________________________ 227 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka Robert, I went with K.Sujin to Sri lanka in 77 and 79. both visits were organised by Capt Pereira and a lot of large fairly formal gatherings were arranged. we left all the arrangements to the Sri lankans and it was really a visit for them and the small group of Westerners accompanying K.Sujin (only Nina and myself in 77). If K.Sujin goes this time it will be quite different - there will be a very large number of Thais going too and I'm sure it will be a Thai organised trip so there won't be any question of sessions being opened by Prime ministers.....! Funny, i was reading yr note and there were conditions to think about Bhikkhu Bodhi who attended a few of the talks in kandy and then mike's reference to his book a little later. In terms of distribution of good dhamma writings for the Sri lankans, we have always felt strongly that one of the best long-term channels is the BPS (Buddhist publication Society) in Sri lanka. They have a great distribution network....we've been members for decades. The publications are very reasonable in price and Bhikkhu Bodhi (in charge) is extremely hard-working. He is very familiar with Nina's writings and is always keen to receive articles for Wheel or the smaller leaflets....a few of Nina's have been printed here. The more the better I think.. they all help to eliminate wrong view! When we last saw him, we spent two hours talking to him about getting 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' printed by the BPS. He wanted to make some editorial changes and we worked out what we thought were acceptable compromises that didn't affect the content adversely. Nina, however, didn't want any changes (understandably), so it was left... He's a very busy bhikkhu but I'm thinking I should at least send him the info about this list..... I'm also reminded that it was in Sri lanka 79 that I met Jonothan and Amara for the first time, along w/ Susie, Jill, Helen (Azita now)... - all those conditioned stories....we hear a sound, or in this case see a visible object and off they go.....!> Sarah > >Dear group, >It seems that there will be a Dhamma trip to Sri lanka >at the end of this year or early next year. Not >certain yet >. >The last time Khun Sujin went was before the violence >started - about 20 years ago. But it seems that it was >a beneficial trip for many people. I read that the >President of Sri lanka at that time, Premadasa(since >killed by a bomb)opened the meeting. >It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as >many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise >to invite any politicians with the current situation- >at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can >contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of >Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who >went on the last trip it might be worthwhile >contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps >think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas >writings- most educated peole have no problem with >English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to >print some for free distribution? They are always >printing books in Thailand but somehow they always >seem to run out of the English editions. >This is all slightly premature, considering the dates >are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. >Robert ______________________________________________________ 228 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:33pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Mike, acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the 'Triple Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact him to get copies. Sarah p.s. Robert or Rosan, I'm just wondering if Alan is o.k. as we haven't heard from him here for ages & he hasn't reponded to qus which is so unlike him....let me know if you're in touch w/him! Hopefully just busy w/babies and work!> > >Dear Amara, > >I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin >Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a >catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a >good place to start. > >Mike > >PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" >that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma >Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. >I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are >available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to >share the Dhamma. Thank you! > > >"amara chay" wrote: > >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/?start=1 >63 > > (I would also like to > > >order a > > >copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) > > Jonothan, > > I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to >you > > myself. ______________________________________________________ 229 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 3:15am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka >If K.Sujin goes this time it will be quite different - there will be >a >very large number of Thais going too and I'm sure it will be a Thai > >organised trip so there won't be any question of sessions being >opened >by Prime ministers.....! Dear friends in the dhamma, K. S. told me that this time it will also be organized by a Sri Lankan friend, though I don't know about the prime ministers. But the trip is fully booked and at present there is a waiting list, so you had better contact K. Duangduen as quickly as you can. Another problem is the dangerous situation, which might cause a complete change of plans- they might be going to Cambodia instead, which might be a good chance for those interested to visit Ankor Wat. She says that she will come to the decision after the U.S. trip. Last time she went to Cambodia, there was Sihanouk's wife on the same flight, and there was a huge crowd at the airport, all in white, and as they got off the plane, they all sat down. To everyone's great surprise, they were there to greet K.S., and let the beautiful French born Queen pass practically unnoticed! Her radio programs are the only dhamma programs in Cambodia, as far as I know. As soon as I get the programs, or the changes in the programs or whatever, I will post it on the website, so, I hate to have to keep asking everyone, please check on it from time to time! ( newsletter section) Amara ______________________________________________________ 230 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 3:33am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have >found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the >'Triple Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact >him to get copies. Mike, I agree completely. They might not seem to be addressing the abhidhamma directly, but what is the dhamma if not about realities, about our beings, about the world in which we live? K. S. is not only the greatest teacher I know of the abhidhamma, but she can relate that to the ralities of each moment of our lives in an unrefutable manner, for, as she says, what is there in the world right now but citta, cetasika and rupa? They will not only explain pali terms to you but teach you about life itself. Amara ______________________________________________________ 231 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 11:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Amara, I mostly agree. In addition I would comment that the more understanding there is of abhidhamma, the more one realises it's not about lists and memorising but about seeing now, not self, vipaka citta, about hearing etc...as you say, about citta, cetasika and rupa which can be experienced at this moment. This is abhidhamma, and when we say we need an understanding of abhidhamma in order to read the suttas or to understand them at least, it is understanding the conditioned nature of the different realities we refer to and understanding the difference between concepts and realities. Thus, whenever I listen to k.Sujin, whatever realities she is discussing, she is addressing abhidhamma very directly. As you said in yr earlier message, it depends on accumulations what questions arise or what theoretical knowledge is needed. Other factors such as the cultural background or age will also affect what is aapropriate to read or hear, but we've discussed that before. I do howver think, that unlike some of those who had the good fortune to be born at the time of the Buddha (so much accumulated wisdom from previous lives), we all need to hear, read and consider A LOT! Sarah >Mike, >I agree completely. They might not seem to be addressing the abhidhamma >directly, but what is the dhamma if not about realities, about our beings, >about the world in which we live? K. S. is not only the greatest teacher I >know of the abhidhamma, but she can relate that to the ralities of each >moment of our lives in an unrefutable manner, for, as she says, what is >there in the world right now but citta, cetasika and rupa? They will not >only explain pali terms to you but teach you about life itself. >Amara ______________________________________________________ 232 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 11:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps Robert, I'm just going over some old messages i missed when the computer broke down. This group is a source of such good info. I was delighted to read about the below change of name..I'd been saying for ages how inaappropriate 'propagation' sounded...sounds like I wasn't alone! I really appreciate all the hard work you and Alan and Amara and others are going to in order to get these books published. Sarah > >dear alan, >I just read over the message about sponsoring in >Taking refuge .._ It is great. > >Recently I received the proofs of Realities and >Concepts . The inside cover says published by Dhamma >Study and Support Foundation. >I was at a meeting with Khun sujin and others last >year and we discussed the name. Many people didn't >like propagation and Ivan suggested changing it to >support - which I strongly agreed with. Apparently >this has been finalized as I didn't mention anything >to the printers yet the new name is on the book. > >Once I go to thailand I will gather a few hundred >copies to bring back to japan. We can then announce on >the internet that these are available for free >distribution. >Robert > > ______________________________________________________ 233 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:47pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >Mike, >acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have >found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the 'Triple >Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact him to >get copies. > >Sarah > >p.s. Robert or Rosan, I'm just wondering if Alan is o.k. as we haven't heard >from him here for ages & he hasn't reponded to qus which is so unlike >him....let me know if you're in touch w/him! Hopefully just busy w/babies >and work!> Sarah, Hi I'm still alive, but having big problems with my computer which has already been to the repairers once and is still not okay. I am not distributing the tapes anymore as the copying was just too awkward, but I am sending Mike a few of my own tapes. Can you send me an e-mail with the details of this discussion group and I can just put the details straight on my web site? Best wishes, Alan 234 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia Dear friends in the dhamma, K.S. told me yesterday that at the Cambodian airport it was not the Queen who arrived on the same plane with her but the lady head of the UNDP with the refugee department of the UN or something like that, sorry for the mix up. She also said that if we went this time there would be no limits to the group's size because there would be enough accommodations, unlike the Sri Lanka trip. And that if we visited Ankor Wat it will be by boat, in the evening, because it is said to be very beautiful by moonlight. We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform you again. Amara ______________________________________________________ 235 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:19am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia Dear Amara, I look forward to the translation. Please keep asking about the trip so that we get a final decision on whether it is Cambodia or Sri lanka that we visit. We need to do a lot of preparation if it is Sri lanka. The accomodation is perhaps not such a problem in such a small country as Sri lanka as even if we dont stay in the same hotels we can easily meet at different places. Some of us can stay in Guest houses even if we miss out on the booked accomodation. Also please find out about the times if you can- hopefully over Christmas from Dec 18- January 10 . --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > K.S. told me yesterday that at the Cambodian airport > it was not the Queen > who arrived on the same plane with her but the lady > head of the UNDP with > the refugee department of the UN or something like > that, sorry for the mix > up. She also said that if we went this time there > would be no limits to the > group's size because there would be enough > accommodations, unlike the Sri > Lanka trip. And that if we visited Ankor Wat it > will be by boat, in the > evening, because it is said to be very beautiful by > moonlight. > We also have some good news for those who liked > 'Kammasakata', I have just > received a transcript of some recent talks on the > subject of vithi-citta > which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in > the site, I will inform > you again. > Amara > ______________________________________________________ 236 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:22am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Matrix Has anyone seen The Matrix? It just came out on video in Japan. Some very Buddhist themes in this movie - exciting too. Robert 237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:49am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia >We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just >received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta >which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform >you again. >Amara Amara, Looking forward to your translation of the talks on vitthi-citta. Anumodana. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 238 From: Mike Potter Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 11:32am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Realities and Concepts" Now Online Dear Friends, Thanks to Robert, Kuhn Sujin's latest book, Realities and Concepts, is now online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See "What's New"). It is in PDF format, so that all of the Pali accents and other formatting are retained. A link to the free Adobe Reader is provided. Mike 239 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:43pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia >We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just >received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta >which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform >you again. >Amara >______________________________________________________ > Amara, only just read kammasakata....I seem to lag behind others. Very helpful and lots of useful and clear abhidhamma detail...Yr translation w/Robert's revisions seems to work very well....keep up the good team work. Sarah ______________________________________________________ 240 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 2:45pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG > I mostly agree. In addition I would comment that the more understanding > there is of abhidhamma, the more one realises it's not about lists and > memorising but about seeing now, not self, vipaka citta, about hearing > etc...as you say, about citta, cetasika and rupa which can be experienced at > this moment. This is abhidhamma, and when we say we need an understanding > of abhidhamma in order to read the suttas or to understand them at least, it > is understanding the conditioned nature of the different realities we refer > to and understanding the difference between concepts and realities. Sarah, The other day she also said that the abhidhamma is the key to the understanding of the Tipitaka as a whole (for example when you read the suttas it is not about this or that person but different combinations of citta, cetasika and rupa, I think). Therefore if you are to study the Tipitaka at all you should not neglect the abhidhamma, it should at least be studied together with the rest. Personally I think that studying the abhidhamma is a lot better than studying anything else or having any kind of hobby because it is a very good reminder for sati to arise while other activities might not be so conducive. Amara 241 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 7:01am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: "Realities and Concepts" Now Online >Dear Friends, > >Thanks to Robert, Kuhn Sujin's latest book, Realities and Concepts, is >now online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See >"What's New"). It is in PDF format, so that all of the Pali accents >and other formatting are retained. A link to the free Adobe Reader is >provided. > >Mike Mike, Anumodana, I especially love the Pali accents, which we have never been able to reconcile with the normal browsers here at DS. So here we continue with the accentless Pali for the general public but I am very glad to have Alan's site as well as yours with the proper accents in place! Again, anumodana with both of you, Amara ______________________________________________________ 242 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 11:20am Subject: latest newsletter Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just added newsletter 4 to about the inauguration of the foundation's building, (at which 2 or 3 new books will be offered, one of which is in English) the 17th of May is also Visakhapuja Day, by the way. Amara 243 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 9:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] latest newsletter >I have just added newsletter 4 to about the >inauguration of the foundation's building, (at which 2 or 3 new books will >be offered, one of which is in English) the 17th of May is also Visakhapuja >Day, by the way. >Amara Amara, Thanks for keeping us up to date. We look forward to hearing about the occasion (and the dhamma duscussion, perhaps) in due course. Incidentally, I presume the Mike Myers of the background photo is the same Mike Myers (former cuso volunteer) who I shared a house with in Bangkok many years ago. Jonothan 244 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 3:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] latest newsletter >Incidentally, I presume the Mike Myers of the background photo is the same >Mike Myers (former cuso volunteer) who I shared a house with in Bangkok >many >years ago. Jonothan, Sorry I don't know whether it is the same person; I only know his website is full of great shots of the moon! For those interested, I have also added a link from the NASA credits line on the Q&A2 page (bottom right- click on underlined words) background to a fascinating page of press release pictures at NASA of multiple galaxies collisions where up to five or six of them pile up! Amara 245 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 5, 2000 6:06pm Subject: Old friends Jonothan, On the subject of old friends, do you remember an American samanera Heng Shun, who was in the discussion group at Wat Bowornives with Phra Dhammadaro at the time for half a year in 73-74? He has been a bhikkhu for 20 yrs. now in the States, saw us on the web and is now going to bring students to join the discussions with K.S. in Frisco! His monastery is about 150m. to the north of the city, and he wrote that he still uses her books to teach in his classes. If you want to say hello, his address is Amara 246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 10:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG > >Sarah, >The other day she also said that the abhidhamma is the key to the >understanding of the Tipitaka as a whole (for example when you read the >suttas it is not about this or that person but different combinations >of citta, cetasika and rupa, I think). Therefore if you are to study >the Tipitaka at all you should not neglect the abhidhamma, it should at >least be studied together with the rest. Personally I think that >studying the abhidhamma is a lot better than studying anything else or >having any kind of hobby because it is a very good reminder for sati to >arise while other activities might not be so conducive. >Amara > Amara, i agree...w'out abhidhamma study or rather w'out understanding of abhidhamma, one is sure to read the suttas w/ the idea of people, things and places...abhidhamma understanding is essential for understanding the difference between concepts and realities...So what do we mean by study? There can be study of abhidhamma now or at any other moment if we have heard and considered about realities. > > 247 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 11:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life > Actually, I hadn't checked or finished my last message when it mysteriously decided to go out on its own.. So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather high-rise apartment Hong Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., using the time to check messages while falling over boxes..... I do believe that if we have any idea about this time or moment being less conducive to the development of sati and panna than say our times with abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in India, it shows our clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to 'self'......seeing, hearing, thinking etc are not confined to times and places... If they were, the bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts would be the most enlightened, but we know it is the understanding which is the key and the confidence which develops with it that whatever reality appers now is the test for awareness... For sure, however, we need to hear and read and consider a lot about diferent realities for right understanding to develop. Hopefully, this is yet another channel for this. Sarah p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his regular long dhamma & catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy to join us here! 248 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 3:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear sarah, This is something Khun Sujin stresses so much: that awareness can arise anywhere, anytime, any situation. How? Because in the ultimate sense no place, no time, no situation- only cittas, cetasikas, rupas. Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most important conditions are listening, considering and direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of a very busy life). The problem with bUddhists these days is that they think this minor condition is the most important one. Once a monk had the necessary conditions to become an arahant. Sariputta(or another famous monk) asked him what food was most suitable for him. The monk replied that fish was. So sariputta attained this for him (not by hinting or any wrong means) and the monk became an arahant on that very day. The correct food was a supporting condition for arahantship. If we take this story wrongly we could all start eating fish every day - or we might become very concerned with diet. In the same way people become very concerned about finding ideal conditions to develop insight. But these are very minor matters compared to developing understanding(at any time) which is the indispensable cause for nibbana. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > Actually, I hadn't checked or finished my last > message when it mysteriously > decided to go out on its own.. > > So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather > high-rise apartment Hong > Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., > using the time to check > messages while falling over boxes..... > > I do believe that if we have any idea about this > time or moment being less > conducive to the development of sati and panna than > say our times with > abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in > India, it shows our > clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to > 'self'......seeing, hearing, > thinking etc are not confined to times and places... > If they were, the > bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts > would be the most > enlightened, but we know it is the understanding > which is the key and the > confidence which develops with it that whatever > reality appers now is the > test for awareness... > > For sure, however, we need to hear and read and > consider a lot about > diferent realities for right understanding to > develop. Hopefully, this is > yet another channel for this. > > Sarah > > p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his > regular long dhamma & > catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy > to join us here! > > 249 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 8:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life >So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather high-rise apartment Hong >Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., using the time to check >messages while falling over boxes..... >p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his regular long dhamma & >catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy to join us here! Sarah, please be careful with your boxes, a friend of mine moved into the building the year before and fell over a box behind a couch and broke her ankle! By the way I spoke to Nina W. the other day and she said she was having some of her casts removed that day and will be walking better soon. I was also trying to persuade her to get a computer that worked with a mobile modem, but she said she was a low tech. person. Any way she said she lived only a few km. from the phone lines now, so there's still hope... >I do believe that if we have any idea about this time or moment being less >conducive to the development of sati and panna than say our times with >abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in India, it shows our >clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to 'self'......seeing, hearing, >thinking etc are not confined to times and places... If they were, the >bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts would be the most >enlightened, but we know it is the understanding which is the key and the >confidence which develops with it that whatever reality appers now is the >test for awareness... > >For sure, however, we need to hear and read and consider a lot about >diferent realities for right understanding to develop. Hopefully, this is >yet another channel for this. > >Sarah > About the study of the Tipitaka, I agree that with K.S.'s teachings as a firm basis we hardly need to study the texts, and that the study of the present moment is the essence of the Buddha's teachings, but with my accumulations I still find that I have more sati arising while discussing, hearing or reading about the dhamma. I also have had sati in some of the strangest moments, but I find that in the instants of strong lobha it arises less often than at other times. And I have such a lot of lobha! Some of which is for knowledge in the worldly sense, in a lot of areas. This is what I meant when I said that studying the abhidhamma is more conducive for sati for me than reading a novel or a scientific journal. By the way, Sarah, when I am unable to sleep, reading through the abhidhamma is a pretty good cure... especially a long list of pali names. Just be careful because I recommended it to a friend and she said the 'Summary' book was so heavy it almost broke her nose when she dozed off reading it! It also left her wide awake again!!! Amara 250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2000 9:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life >Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks >meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots >of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite >places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the >teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most >important conditions are listening, considering and >direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of >a very busy life). The problem with bUddhists these >days is that they think this minor condition is the >most important one. Robert, I do not agree with the suggestion that quiet places are more suitable for the develoment of awareness or understanding than any other place. It contradicts what you so aptly said about 'no time, no place, no situation'. By the way, what is the pali term which is translated here as 'meditate'? Jonothan 251 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 7, 2000 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Jonothon, I think I said quiet places CAN be ideal. It does not mean they ARE. Look at the rest of what I wrote- even eating fish CAN be a supporting conition at some time , for some people, for insight to arise. But these days quiet places can even hinder progress because people think it is some prerequisite for insight to arise. I am not sure of the Pali word for meditate but for sure the buddha meant develop either vipassana or the supporting conditions for vipassana. The indispensable conditions for insight are listening, considering, applying the teachings and having accumulations from the past. Robert 252 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 5:55am Subject: Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Friends in the Dharma, Amara suggested that I write a little note to assist those who might be "racking their brain" trying to figure out "Who is Heng Shun?". I certainly don't want to be a potential supporting factor for anyone's akusala-karma as they trouble over this question. Therefore let me me clarify who "I" am- conventionally speaking of course. I was originally introduced to Khun Sujin in May of 1973 by an American laywoman who was staying at the same Wat as myself- Wat Mahatat. After I started attending her weekly classes at Wat Bovornives I moved to Wat Pleng, where Phra Dhammadaro lived- also a regular participant in Khun Sujin's classes at that time. After a month at Wat Pleng I moved to Wat Bovornives. As I was still a lay-follower at the time, my three months worth of visa extensions were used up and I returned to the U.S. Inspired by Khun Sujin's teachings, in January of 1974 I returned to Wat Bovornives to prepare to become ordained as a Shramanera, which I did in March. The Somdet gave me the monastic name Jutindharo- not to be confused with the previous American monk of the same name who had, unfortunately, just disrobed before my ordination. My lay-name before this time was Gregory Wilczak, but I was commonly known by the study group as Greg (I'm originally from Chicago). In June of 1974 I returned to the U.S. to study under the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua at Gold Mountain Monatery in San Francisco. An Australian monk at Wat Bovornives had given me the recently published biography of the Venerable Master which had been sent to Phra Khantipalo, who was training all of us young foreign monks at the time, and who had a very extensive English library. As soon as I read the Venerable Master's biography I knew he was my monastic teacher from past lives so I immediately left to study with him. I was ordained as a Shramanera again under the Venerable Master in 1975 at Gold Mountain and given the monastic name Heng Shun. He ordained me as a Bhikshu in 1976. Gold Mountain emphasized a very strict adherence to the traditional monastic Vinaya, coupled with scholarly study of the Sutras and intensive practice of Shamatha and Vipashyana. The Venerable Master also lectured on an Abhidharma work by the great Indian Master Vasubandhu (circa 5th cent). After 17 years at Gold Mountain Monastery, my last 8 years have been spent at our major monastic training center, the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Mendocino County about 120 miles north of San Francisco. The City has about 30-40 Bhikshus and Shramaneras and about 70-80 Bhikshunis and Shramanerikas (the Bhikshuni tradition has survived to the present via India-China in the Mahayana). In addition to this we have well over 100 lay-followers family who also live on a designated area on the 400-acre grounds of the City. The majority of the people are Chinese from Asian countries (i.e. China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong etc.) or American-born Chinese. We have separate Boys and Girls elementary and high schools on the grounds of the City, as well as a university that is still in an early stage of development. I teach Buddhist Studies and World Religions in the high school and also am teaching translation classes for the Shramaneras in the monastery (translation of Chinese Sutras into English). I'm presently working on a major translation work from Ancient Buddhist Chinese into English- the final chapter of the Flower Adornment (Avatamsaka) Sutra on the Conduct (Carya) and Vows (Pranidhana) of the Bodhisattva, Universal Worthy (Samantabhadra) with an extensive commentary by our Master. I'm relatively fluent in Chinese, but also have the kusala karma-vipaka to have several native Chinese monks and lay-followers who are fluent in English who give me much needed assistance. I'm very fortunate to have laid a very solid foundation in understanding Dharma through the classes taught by Khun Sujin at Wat Bovornives. I recall, as many of you well know, how tirelessly she taught us- sometimes the classes would go on for 5 to 6 hours as she patiently answered our many questions about the Abhidharma. I'm now reading the many works that I've just discovered are available on-line by Khun Sujin and her students, and this is a real pleasure. I look forward to once again expanding my knowledge of Abhidharma by participating in Khun Sujin's discussions here in the San Francisco Bay area when she visits in a couple of weeks, and perhaps also seeing some old friends who will be accompanying her. I'll be bringing 5 or so young Shramaneras (16 to 22 yrs of age) along to participate in these discussions. I'd love to also contribute to these Dharma group discussions on-line. My knowledge is very limited, and I would sometimes be speaking from the perspective of the Mahayana Abhidharma as exemplified by the Indian Master Vasubandhu. Perhaps people will find it of interest to become exposed to the Sanskrit terminology that I would be using. There are some interesting interpretations of the significance of pranidhana (vows) of the Bodhisattva and the idea of parinamana- consignment of punya (merit) to others. Other than that, I believe the Abhidharma in both traditions is pretty much the same. One of the Shramaneras is reading Khun Sujin's material for the first time and has said he sees little if any difference between the two traditions of Abhidharma. Anyway, I hope this may be an opportunity for anumodana- or at least not be a condition for the potential akusala-karma from "racking one's brain". Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 253 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Venerable Heng Shun, A very warm welcome to the group. I am a relatively new member having met Khun Sujin only nine years ago. (I met Phra khantiplalo years before that) It was fascinating to read your details. I have read some of the material from the Gold Mountain Monastery- a very austere living and hard studying group indeed. They seem to have many points in common with Theravada tradition, closer than most mahayana groups. I certainly hope you will put your opinions forward often - it is very useful for us to have a monk of such longstanding in the discussions. Please don't be put off if anyone disagrees with your ideas- most of us are firmly within the Theravda tradition and thus see things from this perspective. You may have to be forceful and repetitive to get properly heard- I urge you to be so. At best if there is any disagreement we can all have the chance to examine our beliefs and compare them with the present moment. A great opportunity. Best wishes Robert 254 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 5:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Venerable sir, Thank you very much for your fascinating account of your life, or rather the intricacies of the citta, cetasika and rupa, a person's accumulations. I thnk that the abhidhamma cannot be too different from one tradition to the other if one does not change or misinterpret the texts in the course of the study, and that is because it is the truth and no one can change that. Over two thousand five hundred years age the Buddha taught that the universe was always changing, building up and dying down, and modern science only recently discovered as much, after the burning of several scholars through the centuries. In fact science has never been able to disprove any of the Buddha's teachings, they only lag lamentably behind. The Buddha spoke of other worlds and planets long before astronomers began discovering other planetary systems. It may take an infinitely longer time for 'science' to prove anything about the intricacies of the mind, in the meantime each can prove the Buddha's teachings on this matter for themselves, by accumulating conditions for satipatthana, listening, reading and studying about the realities that appear to us. I am very glad we have another friend to discuss these matters with, Amara 255 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Mon Apr 10, 2000 3:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Heng Shun, Does this ring any bells? Regards, Ivan (Michael on the far left and Stacy on the far right ) >From: "Heng Shun" >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 21:55:26 PDT > >Dear Friends in the Dharma, Amara suggested that I write a little note to >assist those who might be "racking their brain" trying to figure out "Who >is >Heng Shun?". I certainly don't want to be a potential supporting factor >for >anyone's akusala-karma as they trouble over this question. Therefore let >me >me clarify who "I" am- conventionally speaking of course. I was originally >introduced to Khun Sujin in May of 1973 by an American laywoman who was >staying at the same Wat as myself- Wat Mahatat. After I started attending >her weekly classes at Wat Bovornives I moved to Wat Pleng, where Phra >Dhammadaro lived- also a regular participant in Khun Sujin's classes at >that >time. After a month at Wat Pleng I moved to Wat Bovornives. As I was still >a lay-follower at the time, my three months worth of visa extensions were >used up and I returned to the U.S. Inspired by Khun Sujin's teachings, in >January of 1974 I returned to Wat Bovornives to prepare to become ordained >as a Shramanera, which I did in March. The Somdet gave me the monastic >name >Jutindharo- not to be confused with the previous American monk of the same >name who had, unfortunately, just disrobed before my ordination. My >lay-name before this time was Gregory Wilczak, but I was commonly known by >the study group as Greg (I'm originally from Chicago). In June of 1974 I >returned to the U.S. to study under the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua at Gold >Mountain Monatery in San Francisco. An Australian monk at Wat Bovornives >had given me the recently published biography of the Venerable Master which >had been sent to Phra Khantipalo, who was training all of us young foreign >monks at the time, and who had a very extensive English library. As soon as >I read the Venerable Master's biography I knew he was my monastic teacher >from past lives so I immediately left to study with him. I was ordained as >a >Shramanera again under the Venerable Master in 1975 at Gold Mountain and >given the monastic name Heng Shun. He ordained me as a Bhikshu in 1976. >Gold Mountain emphasized a very strict adherence to the traditional >monastic >Vinaya, coupled with scholarly study of the Sutras and intensive practice >of >Shamatha and Vipashyana. The Venerable Master also lectured on an >Abhidharma >work by the great Indian Master Vasubandhu (circa 5th cent). After 17 years >at Gold Mountain Monastery, my last 8 years have been spent at our major >monastic training center, the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Mendocino County >about 120 miles north of San Francisco. The City has about 30-40 Bhikshus >and Shramaneras and about 70-80 Bhikshunis and Shramanerikas (the Bhikshuni >tradition has survived to the present via India-China in the Mahayana). In >addition to this we have well over 100 lay-followers family who also live >on a designated area on the 400-acre grounds of the City. The majority of >the people are Chinese from Asian countries (i.e. China, Taiwan, Malaysia, >Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong etc.) or American-born Chinese. We have >separate Boys and Girls elementary and high schools on the grounds of the >City, as well as a university that is still in an early stage of >development. I teach Buddhist Studies and World Religions in the high >school and also am teaching translation classes for the Shramaneras in the >monastery (translation of Chinese Sutras into English). I'm presently >working on a major translation work from Ancient Buddhist Chinese into >English- the final chapter of the Flower Adornment (Avatamsaka) Sutra on >the >Conduct (Carya) and Vows (Pranidhana) of the Bodhisattva, Universal Worthy >(Samantabhadra) with an extensive commentary by our Master. I'm relatively >fluent in Chinese, but also have the kusala karma-vipaka to have several >native Chinese monks and lay-followers who are fluent in English who give >me >much needed assistance. I'm very fortunate to have laid a very solid >foundation in understanding Dharma through the classes taught by Khun Sujin >at Wat Bovornives. I recall, as many of you well know, how tirelessly she >taught us- sometimes the classes would go on for 5 to 6 hours as she >patiently answered our many questions about the Abhidharma. I'm now >reading >the many works that I've just discovered are available on-line by Khun >Sujin >and her students, and this is a real pleasure. I look forward to once >again >expanding my knowledge of Abhidharma by participating in Khun Sujin's >discussions here in the San Francisco Bay area when she visits in a couple >of weeks, and perhaps also seeing some old friends who will be accompanying >her. I'll be bringing 5 or so young Shramaneras (16 to 22 yrs of age) >along >to participate in these discussions. I'd love to also contribute to these >Dharma group discussions on-line. My knowledge is very limited, and I >would >sometimes be speaking from the perspective of the Mahayana Abhidharma as >exemplified by the Indian Master Vasubandhu. Perhaps people will find it of >interest to become exposed to the Sanskrit terminology that I would be >using. There are some interesting interpretations of the significance of >pranidhana (vows) of the Bodhisattva and the idea of parinamana- >consignment >of punya (merit) to others. Other than that, I believe the Abhidharma in >both traditions is pretty much the same. One of the Shramaneras is reading >Khun Sujin's material for the first time and has said he sees little if any >difference between the two traditions of Abhidharma. Anyway, I hope this >may be an opportunity for anumodana- or at least not be a condition for the >potential akusala-karma from "racking one's brain". Sincerely, in Dharma, >Heng Shun 256 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 10, 2000 4:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend >Does this ring any bells? ><< WatBovan.jpg >> Reverend sir and dear friends in the dhamma, I am so happy to witness such a e-mail reunion, and that you will be seeing each other in person again soon, to discuss the dhamma with Khun Sujin like in the old days! I also have some news about DS, we have just finished putting up the rest of 'Pilgrimmage to Sri Lanka' in the beginner section, after the long delay. And some not so good news: the new Vithi Citta is only half complete, since the explanation ended at mid-vara, so we might not use it after all. The 'Summary...' gives a much better version, in the chapters about the citta, DS advanced section. We'll also be adding more of the book soon, Amara 257 From: Heng Shun Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 5:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ivan, Robert, Amara, and Dharma-friends, Appreciated your kind welcome and the rather interesting photo. I may not always be able to respond in a timely manner. Needless to say I do not own a computer, rather I use the computer that is shared by the teaching staff at Developing Virtue Boys High School. As you have intimated, until we can verify the unchanging truths of the Abhidharma in our own experience, it is certainly difficult to say with absolute certainty what is the correct interpretation of Abhidharma. And as a prthagjana/puthujjana I'm painfully aware that I do not even know the extent of my avidya/avijja, let alone the truth. With that in mind and with the intention expand my understanding, I pose a question that I often ponder over. What is the inter-relationship between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause perfectly corresponds to your result? Perhaps this question is answered in Khun Sujin's magnum opus, A Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I'm only beginning to study the parts that I've downloaded that were available on-line. It's quite a comprehensive text and also quite a task to translate. As a translator I have much anumodana for the translation work. Ivan, I really look forward to seeing you again in a few weeks after 25+ years. By the way, whatever happened to our other friend Phra Cittabalo? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 258 From: shinlin Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 2:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend I am so glad that there is another Chinese person who can contribute the Dhamma teachings to the Chinese people. This time that I went to Taiwan. I am so amazed at the practice of the Buddhist in Taiwan. metta, Shin Lin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ivan Walsh Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend > Dear Heng Shun, > Does this ring any bells? > Regards, > Ivan > (Michael on the far left and Stacy on the far right ) > 259 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 2:59pm Subject: What are the kama, rupa and arupa worlds? Kashi Yum wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Can you please explain what kama, rupa and arupa > worlds are, are > these > levels of understanding of Dhamma? > > -Kashi > Dear Kashi, Welcome to the discussion and thank you for the question. I am sure Khun Amara, Sarah and others have something to say on this topic also. Please see my question for you at the end of this little essay. Now we are living in the human plane of existence which is within the kama world. Other planes within this include: animals, petas(translated as ghosts but a little different from the haunted house variety)asuras, hell beings , and devas (the gods). The first four groups are born in these realms by the result of verying degrees of akusala kamma (unwholesome deeds). We are in the human realm because of some kusala kamma done in some past life. Kusala has different levels and thus people are different- some are beautiful, some are rich.... There are different types of devas - sorted again by kamma - They live very long happy lives of luxury and splendour. This is not by accident- it comes from kusala kamma of a high level. The other worlds - rupa and arupa - have subdivisions too. Arising there comes from the correct development of samattha(concentration meditation) done while one is a human. Arupa literally means no body: these beings have only mind and no sense organs. It is an entirely blissful existence that lasts for thousands of aeons. If one happens to be there now it is considered unfortunate as one will not get to hear the Buddhas teaching. Rupa gods have sense organs and can still listen. After they finally die they are born in a lower world - and after that may, depending on kamma be born as animals or in hell. This is samsara - we have only kamma as our possesion wherever we wander in our inumerable lives. It is easy to be born in the lower realms and during most periods the lower realms, especially the hell realms, are very crowded while the deva realms and higher worlds are underpopulated. During a Buddhasasana (the brief periods when there is the teaching of the Buddha available) the deva realms become prosperous due to the large numbers who are able to develop kusala of varying levels. In the deva realms it seems that it is a little like the human realm - some of the devas are interested in studying the Dhamma and have the accumulations to do so - others do not. It is not a prequisite that one be Buddhist to be born in any of these realms (except for the 5th Rupa world which is a special place where anagamis spend there last life). All of us have at times being Arupa gods, we have been devas, we have been Kings and Queens as humans. We have also been animals, insects and endured unspeakable torture in hells. How is this possible? It is because samasara is so umimaginably long. It is not necessarily understanding of Dhamma that leads to the higher worlds. We can speculate that someone like Mother Teresa might be now in a deva realm - her understanding was wrong but it was a condition for her to do many good deeds. However extreme wrong view of the type that denies kamma and its results (such as thinking that upon death everything is finished) is such a severe type of akusala kamma in itself that the holder will tend to be born in a lower realm. Understanding comes in many levels from theoretical to experiential with many shades. The scriptures give 5 broad levels from lowest to highest: 1. Kammassakata nana (the knowledge that all beings have kamma as their only real property). In its most basic level this means merely understanding this fact theoretically. But it can also be known directly as wisdom develops -see Sujin Boriharnwanaket http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html for a detailed explanation of this. 2. The next level is Dhamma- vavatthana-nana (analytical knowledhe of Dhamma) 3Paccaya -vavatthana -nana(analaytical knowledge of conditions) 4.Lakkhana-pativedhana-nana (analytical knowledge that penetrates anatta, dukkha, and anicca 5. Nibbana-pativedha-nana (experience of Nibbana) As there is progression through these stages there is deeper understanding of the earlier levels. There is no more a "person" doing kamma , there are rather merely moments of nama and rupa. Thus the function and characteristics of the different realities are seen more and more clearly: kamma is understood directly (but not as comprehensively as the Buddha understood it). I have a question for you: Why should we believe that these other worlds exist? Is there any evidence beyond the scriptures; we can see animals but I personally have no experience of any other beings(not in this life anyway)? Robert 260 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Inter-relationship and kamma Dear Heng Shun, --- Very nice to see your modesty and honesty: "And as a > prthagjana/puthujjana I'm painfully > aware that I do not even know the extent of my > avidya/avijja, let alone the > truth." and thanks for using Pali as well as Sanskrit- it makes reading easier. May I just add that I too am well stuck in samsara - a puthujana. It seems easy for us to admit this but I am afraid that within Theravada these days (I dont know about Mahayana) the numbers overestimating their achievements has reached epidemic proportions. Very hard to talk to them - "I am a sotapanna, how can I interpret things wrongly, of course I know exactly what sati is and how to develop understanding" . Many, I fear, go to their grave convinced they have special attainments - and their students follow along. Now for your very difficult question: "What is > the inter-relationship > between one person's karma and another person's > karma-vipaka? For example, > when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it > is karma-cause. Yet > this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. > How is it that my cause > perfectly corresponds to your result?" Kamma(sansrit- karma)is not the only cause for vipaka to arise although it is the major one. It needs other supporting conditions. One of the teachers of Siddharta when he was a bodhisatta had attained arupa jhana and was reborn in an arupa brahma world . He had all the parami to attain Nibbana but could not (and still cannnot ) hear the Dhamma - he remains a puthujana. Kamma is so complex that the results are considered unthinkables -it is beyond our capacity to understand exactly how the complex conditions from the past interact in the present. Nevertheless we can understand aspects that help us see the absolute anattaness of everything. Nothing can be controlled, yet nothing is happening by chance, neither is it deterministic. Let us consider some examples- The Buddha once pointed out to Ananda a drunken beggar. He said that beggar if he had heard the Dhamma as a young man and become a monk would now be an arahant. As it was he was now old and conditions were such that he would not even hear the Dhamma let alone develop any understanding. Even though he was in sight of the Buddha nothing could be done. A queen tried to avoid seeing the Buddha because she was beautiful and had heard that beauty was said to be a temporary thing by the Buddha. She was eventually forced to listen but managed to put herself at he very back of the crowd. It didnt matter - conditions worked so that she heard the teaching and there and then became enlightened - she didnt want to get enlightened, didnt try, didnt even know what enlightenment was- but conditions follow their own ways. It is beyond control. When we hear the Dhamma now- if it is true Dhamma - then for sure one of the conditions is past kusala kamma . But if there are not enough accumaulations of parami, especially wisdom, then we may gain very little from it. Some people listen and it means nothing to them at all. Another person experiencing the same words at the same time may become a sotapanna immediately. We have an enormous(infinite?) number of kammas good and bad from the past that can give their fruit at any time - but if there are not supporting conditions, which in a conventional sense include the right time and place, they cannot bear fruit. For example we could have been killers in our last life. If we were now born in hell we would experience all the painful results of those deeds. But we were born in a human realm so we cannot to the same extent receive the results of those bad deeds- although we may receive some limited bad results. Thus "my cause corresponding perfectly to your result" is not entirely accurate - it is not put that way (in theravada texts anyway). It is all so, so complex - as I said before not determination -as your phrase suggests, but neither is it chance happening. There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma. Kamma is the most imporatnt from an ethical point of view but others work their way also. Extremely complex but then so is this confusing knot we call life. The Buddha classified conditions in the simplest most accurate way so that we could - as much as we can - untangle the mess. Robert 261 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 6:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] >With that in mind and with the intention expand my understanding, I >pose a question that I often ponder over. What is the inter-relationship >between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, >when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet >this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause >perfectly corresponds to your result? Perhaps this question is answered in >Khun Sujin's magnum opus, A Summary of Paramatthadhamma. Venerable sir, I am also certain that you will need no further explanation once you have read the entire book. For a shorter version, I wrote in message 95 to the group in January something that may be relevant: I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the 'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only predictable to the Buddha. The computer for example is conceived on the basis of mathematical possibilities of the combinations of 1's and 0's in eight positions, (I hope I get it right, I was never good at math!) which gave millions of combinations. With 24 paccayas in any number of combinations [17 I think being the smallest number necessary, for a single instant of seeing, for example], the possibilities seem to be mind boggling, no wonder with the number of kamma accumulated each second, each with different degrees of strength, some would take millions of lifetimes to be just right to produce their results. Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder what it was just now?... I would like to add that all citta can be categorized as vipaka and kamma, and in a vara of vithi citta there are both kinds, in short, when we receive an aramana that is vipaka, the result of past kamma, but our reaction to it is kamma, which will produce results in the future. But because we can never know all the details of our millioms upon millions of past lives, we can never know precisely which kamma produced which vipaka, that is the domain of the omniscient Buddhas. Amara 262 From: Heng Shun Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 6:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert and Amara, Appreciated your responses to my question. Indeed it cannot be overemphasized that how we "respond" to our karmic-results will be determined to a great extent by our "present-life" accumulated karmic tendencies. It's probably the case that if the old drunken begger did not have so much habitual akusala karmic tendencies from his "present" life, he still could have had the opportunity to develop profound prajna/panna wisdom into the Dharma when the Buddha saw him. I also understand that there are various supporting conditions, such as time and place, which must be factored into the ripening of karma. However, my question is actually focused on the karmic side of phenomena (for example, my speaking to you)- that is, those cittas that for me are karmic causes, are for you results (before you generate further karma in response to those results). I think that Amara's point that pratyayas/paccayas are so complex that they are considered "imponderables" or "unthinkables" is well-taken. It is said in the Avatamsaka (Flower Adornment) Sutra from the Chinese that the , "interconnecting 'net' of the karma and vipaka of all living beings is inconceivable." Note that although the word "net" has a static connotation, this so-called net is very dynamic and constantly changing. I look forward to reading Khun Sujin's explanation of the various pratyaya in the Summary of Paramattha Dhamma- there is not a lot of material on this subject in English and I feel it is one of my weakest areas of understanding. Amara, I agree it is definitely important to "study the present arammana (objects of the six senses) to increase our accumulation of panna". However, understanding the different pratyaya/paccaya is also important to me as well, even if it is a rather daunting and complex endeavor. I hope you will bear with me in that from my orientation in the Mahayana Sutras all areas of knowledge are accessible for the overriding purposes of the Bodhisattva Path. I truly feel that this is not by any means incompatible with the study of Abhidharma- whether the sources are in Pali, Sanskrit or Chinese. Robert, while reading your very clearly articulated response to Kashi, I thought that you might want to add that the arupa-lokas involve contemplations or experential states of infinity. It seems that the mystical teachings in various religions at their best seem to have as their goal rebirth in these heavens. The most adept practitioners of these paths I believe mistake the meditative states associated with the arupa lokas as being free from duhkha/dukkha or Nirvana, just as the Buddha's first two teachers did. How often have we heard such terms as "infinite consciousness", "oceanic consciousness" and so forth in these mystical traditions? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun By the way Shin Lin, I am not Chinese- at least in this life. My maternal and fraternal grandparents were born in Greece and Poland respectively. I do live in a community that is predominantly Chinese, and I do speak and often think in Chinese. Therefore, I still hopefully can "contribute the Dhamma teachings to the Chinese people". Are there any cittas, cetasikas, and rupas that are "Chinese"? We look forward to receiving any translation work you do in Chinese on Khun Sujin's Summary of Paramattha Dhammas. My colleague Dr. Wang is quite capable to help edit your work. 263 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 2:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dear venearable Heng shun, Thanks for the reply which is very clear. I agree with your comment to Amara that ""it is definitely important to "study the > present arammana (objects of the six senses) to increase our accumulation of > panna". However, understanding the different pratyaya/paccaya is also > important to me as well, even if it is a rather daunting and complex > endeavor." The study of conditions can help to incline the mind towards direct understanding. One more point that you may wish to comment on: Dependent causality, the paticcasamupada, is sometimes, among western writers, confused with some all encompassing inter-relativity. But in its original form is limited to one stream of individuality - still deeply complex but rather less grand in its aim. Robert 264 From: shinlin Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 4:38pm Subject: Fw: clarify This message is just for misunderstanding. ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: amara chay Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: Re: > Dear Pi Joy, > What I mean in "Chinese person" is a person who knows Chinese language. > If we understand Dhamma, there is no nationality in reality only > conventional term. > Recently, I"ve just encountered a small child who recalls his past life. > He is quite young. He knows the exact name of his previous father who was a > Chinese. But in this life, this kid is born in a Thai family from Korat. So > how can we explain that. It is just what the Lord Buddha said, there is not > nationality or anything. There is only the four Paramatthas. > When I said Chinese is because I realized that alot of people who does > not understand Thai or English will not have any chance of understanding the > truth. Which is a pity ??? > Tomorrow, I will be leaving for Taiwan again. The last time when I went > back, I had some talk with some friends. And it was so hard to explain > CITTA, CESTIKA, RUPA in Chinese. It was so hard for both sides to > communicate. Such a pity for the people who required languages other than > English and Thai. > with regards, > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: amara chay > To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:00 PM > > > > Dear Shin, > > I'm afraid the venerable Heng shun is not a Chinese, in fact look at the > > picture Ivan put in his last e-mail to the group! But apparently he reads > > and probably speaks it very well, and has many assistants who do. In fact > I > > have asked him if he could help check your Chinese if you translate > > 'Summary...' and he said there's a doctor Wang who can, and has asked for > a > > sample page, if you have any! > > How was Taiwan? How is the Buddhist practice different? you might want > to > > share that with us in the group discussion. I just wanted to give you the > > good news in private... The rest you can take up with the persons in > > question themselves! > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, > > Amara 265 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: clarify > > When I said Chinese is because I realized that alot of people who >does > > not understand Thai or English will not have any chance of understanding >the > > truth. Which is a pity ??? > > Tomorrow, I will be leaving for Taiwan again. The last time when I >went > > back, I had some talk with some friends. And it was so hard to explain > > CITTA, CESTIKA, RUPA in Chinese. It was so hard for both sides to > > communicate. Such a pity for the people who required languages other >than > > English and Thai. Shin, I hope this doesn't mean that you have given up the translation of the 'Summary...' especially now that help is available! Amara 266 From: Mike Potter Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 9:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks > meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots > of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite > places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the > teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most > important conditions are listening, considering and > direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of > a very busy life). The problem with Buddhists these > days is that they think this minor condition is the > most important one. Words are such an imprecise means of communication - but through this means (e-mail), they're all we have! :-) So if I have misinterpreted Robert's meaning here, it is all due to my own processing of what was said based on my own experiences (conditions). Quiet places can be ideal, not only because they provide more time to contemplate the teachings, but also because they support a calming of the mind that allows it to let go of its attachments and to be receptive to seeing things as they really are. While I concur that listening, considering, and the direct experience of realities through skillful means, even in the midst of a busy life, CAN lead to awakening if one has the proper accumulations to support it, the role of meditation in developing Right Concentration as a necessary path factor cannot be minimized. One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet listening to the Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide supporting conditions for the arising of knowledge and vision - not as a cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a non-conceptual knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. One must move from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the *direct experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of anicca, dukkha and anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate attention) into the stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of stress, and the path leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of one's experience. I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must endeavor to apply the practice of listening, considering, and directly experiencing realities whenever possible in daily life, through satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to minimize the importance of this aspect of one's practice. But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) that lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to steady the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana precedes samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be rectified. See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. For two excellent articles on this issue, see "One Tool Among Many - the Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html and "The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Yours in the Dhamma, Mike 267 From: Heng Shun Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 6:56am Subject: Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Friends in the Dharma, First I want to mention to Shin Lin and Amara that I'm happy to ask Dr. Wang to assist in the editing of the Chinese translation of the Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I think Shin Lin's point concerning past lives is well-taken. It says in both the Pali and Chinese Sutras that we have gone through measureless lives in the past- from time without beginning. We have been so many nationalities and so many species of being we cannot even reckon them. Robert had also asked the following question: "One more point that you may wish to comment on: Dependent causality, the paticcasamupada, is sometimes, among western writers, confused with some all encompassing inter-relativity. But in its original form is limited to one stream of individuality - still deeply complex but rather less grand in its aim." My response: I believe it is extremely important to ask people who are expounding principles that they say represent the Buddha's teachings, regardless of which tradition, what the scriptural basis is for their principles. That is, in which Sutra do they base their ideas on. Are their ideas in the Vinaya, the Sutras, the Abhidharma or are they the theories of commentators, or perhaps they are their own innovations. In the Mahayana tradition, it is my opinion that the most important Sutras are the Avatamsaka (Flower Adornment) Sutra, the Lotus Flower of the Wondrous Dharma Sutra, and the Shurangama Sutra. With respect to the pratitya samutpada (conditioned origination), the most detailed and significant explanation of this (in my opinion) is the chapter in the Avatamsaka Sutra entitled the Ten Grounds (Dashabhumika) of a Bodhisattva. The Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground called Manifestation (Abhimuki)focuses on the perfection of the paramita of prajna/panna. I will quote a portion of the text in explaining the state of this Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground (this is from the Chinese T. 279- translated by our Buddhist Text Translation Society with some editing by myself) "The Bodhisattva in this way accordingly contemplates the marks (lakshana) of condtioned origination (pratitya samutpada). Disciples of the Buddha, this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, and there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in heart and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' "He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet it all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from existence is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is death. ' 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two karmas....(The text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. Yet he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does not dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the factors of Bodhi.'" This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya samutpada in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas who are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma for many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. Indeed, the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality is Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to experience Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion and does not forsake living beings". We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. I hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 268 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 10:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life > But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting >conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) >that lead to >awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html > >Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. >I am aware >of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the >jhanas and >not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary >to steady >the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". >See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html > >Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana >precedes >samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be >rectified. >See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. > >For two excellent articles on this issue, see "One Tool Among Many - the >Place of >Vipassana in Buddhist Practice" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html >and "The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Mike, I'm afraid some of what these articles say are not supported by the Tipitaka. It is clearly stated there that there are two kinds of ariya-puggalas, those who attained as sukkha-vipassaka and those who attain with jhanna of samatha, and that in the second millennium of the Buddhist era there were only the arahanta who did not have samatha jhana. We are now in the third B. M. so now the most one can attain would be the anagami level, but because the right teachings are still available, we can accumulate wisdom towards future enlightenment, and that is already infinitely better than the fate of those who had attained the highest jhana citta before the Buddha was enlightened. Consider the case of his teachers, Udakatapas and Alaratapas who had attained the highest level of the arupabhrama-bhumi whom, when the Buddha was first enlightened, he sought out but saw that it was too late, and they had passed on to become arupabhrama whose lifespan is I don't remember how many millions of aeons (Maybe Robert can tell us) so that in the Tipitaka they were said to be, 'lost' to enlightenment, to the teachings of the Buddha and all the Buddha to come in between time, since they would have neither eyes nor ears to hear or study the dhamma. So while those who practice vipassana without samatha can attain nibbhana, the opposite is not true. Nor does one need to balance the two, panna is the only vital thing in Buddhism, with it there are conditions for samma-samadhi to automatically arise with satipatthana, with or without jhana-samadhi practices. But because before the buddha's enlightenment no one taught vipassana, most who were interested in eliminating kilesa only had the teachings about samadhi, both samma and micha, most had been practicing it before they met the Buddha, that is why it was normal for them to continue, but with panna of the vipassana level, because nothing is unsuitable as aramana for the vipassana panna, neither the calmest citta nor the 'busiest', kilesa-filled persent moment, which can be the aramana of the next moment of sati, of panna. But in reality the development of calm can be pretty full of kilesa for the refined attachment to the peacefulness as well and be obstructive to the purer levels of panna, if one does not realize it. We all study Buddhism in order to learn what the Buddha taught in the Tipitaka, and all that he teaches support the rest in the most perfect manner, which is why it is such indescribable logic and such a delight to study. He also taught us not to believe even what he taught without careful consideration, the panna must not be in the teachings but in ourselves, our understanding and experience. Through the billions on billions of years we have lived in the samsara-vatta, we must have all at one time or another practiced the jhanas, since we have all been born from the lowliest creatures to the highest Bhrama, and some of us, in fact all, must have some accumulations to practice samadhi (quite dormant in my case). In the Tipitaka, however, it is not essential to the panna that can completely eradicate kilesa, level by level. And that can only come from vipassana, satipatthana. Amara 269 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 1:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to >understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. >The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is >consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with >consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six >sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, >and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, >and >there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). >Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with >outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise >from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction >of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The >greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in >heart >and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the >five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. >As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. > 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, >without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' >"He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then >there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then >in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, >this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All >within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within >this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet >it >all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' > 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced >together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are >activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is >ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and >form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The >three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is >produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is >thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production >of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from >existence >is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is >death. ' > 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two >karmas....(The >text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of >conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, >how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then >this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): > 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the >conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a >nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. >Yet >he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living >beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of >wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of >wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of >Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates >conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does >not >dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the >factors of Bodhi.'" > This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya >samutpada >in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is >interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the >Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas >who >are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma >for >many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all >beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the >requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. >Indeed, >the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka >Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same >reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality >is >Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to >experience >Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the >Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion >and does not forsake living beings". > We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can >safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana >Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. >I >hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. Venerable sir, I can see why Robert and yourself foresaw some major differences in the interpretations of the texts! In part I blame the language, which has caused many Theravada Thais to misunderstand the texts, simply because the normal usage in the language of corrupted Pali terms: sanna is now used with the connotation of a promise in ordinary Thai, instead of the original Pali meaning of memory. When I see you quote, ' The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form.' I would guess that you translated 'name and form' from the Pali 'nama and rupa', which K. S. explains as nama=the element(dhatu) that knows, and rupa=the element that is not consciousness even when it is formless (space, quark, electrons, atoms, invisible gasses, the air or color spectrums we do not see, etc., etc.). She would explain the khandas as conglomeration, composed realities (arising because of conditions, as opposed to nibbhana, which is not a khanda because it does not arise from conditions, nor is it a conglomerate or composed reality), which can be classified as nama and rupa. From another perspective they can be classified as the six senses and their aramana, as internal and external ayatana, from others as kamma and vipaka, from still others as hetuka and ahetuka, and kusala and akusala, in fact through as many classifications as is necessary to see them as they really are, different kinds of realities that are not the self. And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: "The kusala-dhamma and akusala-dhamma that arise as javana-vithi, and fall away are accumulated in the next citta. Although the citta arises and falls away, the falling away of past citta is paccaya for the next citta to arise. Therefore the next citta to arise would inherit all that is accumulated in the previous citta because the subsequent citta ensued from the preceding citta as paccaya. Thus the akusala-javana-vithi-citta and the kusala-javana-vithi-citta accumulate latent tendencies and would be paccaya for vipaka to arise. Samsara-vatta comprises 3 parts: kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta. Kilesa-vatta arises in cycles through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind and accumulates latent tendencies in continuation which are causes to perform kamma-vatta or physical, verbal or mental actions of kusala- or akusala-kamma. Kamma-vatta is the cause for vipaka-vatta to arise, and when the vipaka-citta arises to know arammana through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, it is not without kilesa-vatta because there is still pleasure or displeasure in things appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Since there is kilesa, there is still cause to perform kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma. Kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma are the causes of akusala-vipaka-Citta and kusala-vipaka-Citta to arise endlessly. As long as panna has not been developed until it is sharp enough to clearly realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, the three samsara-vatta, kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, would continually arise and evolve. Paticcasamuppada means the dhamma that depends on each other to arise as kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, that is, avijja is the cause for sankhara to arise (kilesa-vatta is the paccaya for kamma-vatta to arise), and sankhara is the cause for vinnana to arise (kamma-vatta is the paccaya for vipaka-vatta to arise). Avijja, or moha-cetasika, is the akusala-dhamma that does not know realities as they really are: the kilesa-vatta that is paccaya for the sankhara to arise. The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma or the 4 arupajhana-kusala. Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the distinct kamma. Therefore the paticcasamuppada manifested by the Buddha is the reality that arises and evolves with each instant. This is constant no matter in which explanation, for example from the perspective of the four aramattha-dhamma, the four ariya-sacca or the paticcasamuppada." End quote. If you compare the two passages you can see the major differences, but in the Pali texts I suspect they may be closer than one might think. I would suggest you check K.S.'s references (you will find that they are all either from the Tipitaka or the Commentaries) when you read the entire chapter (and the entire book, I hope, one day! I will be putting at least one more chapter up today or tonight). And you can take up the differences in your discussions with her in the States! That should make such interesting reading, would you send us some notes or a short article on the sessions afterwards? (Again my lobha is manifesting itself, but then I am only a student with such a long way to go!!!) One other major difference is the great importance you give to the Bodhisatava, especially in Thailand we have the growing cult of the Kwan Yin, whereas in the Theravada tradition it is mainly what the Buddha taught that matters, after all in his last life he also, as the Bodhisatava, lost his way for six years because if previous akusala kamma, and practiced other things before becoming enlightened, including near torture excercises. Still it is better than some Thai Buddhists who claim that this is already past the Buddha's era and time to prepare for the Metteya Buddha to come, and have begun in an incomprehensible manner to criticize the Gotama Buddha even now (though I am glad to say that he was so far the unique case). I think you will find that the Theravada tradition stresses the study of the Abhidhamma, which K.S. regards as the key to the comprehension of the Tipitaka as a whole. As it is often said, even as we discuss this, what is there but nama and rupa, or citta, cetasika and rupa? Amara 270 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 9:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Dear Amara Chay, I am new to your study group, but much appreciated the message sent with its discussion and explanation of the steps in the arising of kamma. I have always felt intimidated by the use of all those Pali terms, but am getting less frustrated by it and am beginning to learn them with the help of a Pali dictionary which my son, a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok, had given me. But, as you state toward the end of your writing, it is emphasized in the Theravada tradition that it is through the study of Abhidhamma, (and most importantly, vipassana) that a real understanding of all those arising states can come about. Thus, I would like to discuss questions that arise from studying the Abhidhamma. If you, or anyone else you know, would like to discuss such questions, please pass my e-mail on to them. Many thanks, Bongkojpriya Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > > >this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to > >understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. > >The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is > >consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with > >consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six > >sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, > >and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, > >and > >there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). > >Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with > >outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise > >from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction > >of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The > >greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in > >heart > >and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the > >five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. > >As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. > > 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, > >without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' > >"He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then > >there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then > >in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, > >this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All > >within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within > >this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet > >it > >all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' > > 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced > >together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are > >activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is > >ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and > >form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The > >three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is > >produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is > >thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production > >of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from > >existence > >is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is > >death. ' > > 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two > >karmas....(The > >text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of > >conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, > >how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then > >this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): > > 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the > >conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a > >nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. > >Yet > >he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living > >beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of > >wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of > >wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of > >Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates > >conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does > >not > >dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the > >factors of Bodhi.'" > > This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya > >samutpada > >in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is > >interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the > >Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas > >who > >are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma > >for > >many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all > >beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the > >requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. > >Indeed, > >the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka > >Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same > >reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality > >is > >Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to > >experience > >Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the > >Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion > >and does not forsake living beings". > > We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can > >safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana > >Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. > >I > >hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. > > > Venerable sir, > > I can see why Robert and yourself foresaw some major differences in the > interpretations of the texts! In part I blame the language, which has > caused many Theravada Thais to misunderstand the texts, simply because the > normal usage in the language of corrupted Pali terms: sanna is now used with > the connotation of a promise in ordinary Thai, instead of the original Pali > meaning of memory. When I see you quote, ' The four grasping > skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form.' I would > guess that you translated 'name and form' from the Pali 'nama and rupa', > which K. S. explains as nama=the element(dhatu) that knows, and rupa=the > element that is not consciousness even when it is formless (space, quark, > electrons, atoms, invisible gasses, the air or color spectrums we do not > see, etc., etc.). She would explain the khandas as conglomeration, composed > realities (arising because of conditions, as opposed to nibbhana, which is > not a khanda because it does not arise from conditions, nor is it a > conglomerate or composed reality), which can be classified as nama and rupa. > From another perspective they can be classified as the six senses and > their aramana, as internal and external ayatana, from others as kamma and > vipaka, from still others as hetuka and ahetuka, and kusala and akusala, in > fact through as many classifications as is necessary to see them as they > really are, different kinds of realities that are not the self. > > And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would > like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: > > "The kusala-dhamma and akusala-dhamma that arise as javana-vithi, and fall > away are accumulated in the next citta. Although the citta arises and falls > away, the falling away of past citta is paccaya for the next citta to arise. > Therefore the next citta to arise would inherit all that is accumulated in > the previous citta because the subsequent citta ensued from the preceding > citta as paccaya. Thus the akusala-javana-vithi-citta and the > kusala-javana-vithi-citta accumulate latent tendencies and would be paccaya > for vipaka to arise. > > Samsara-vatta comprises 3 parts: kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta. > > Kilesa-vatta arises in cycles through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind and accumulates latent tendencies in continuation which > are causes to perform kamma-vatta or physical, verbal or mental actions of > kusala- or akusala-kamma. Kamma-vatta is the cause for vipaka-vatta to > arise, and when the vipaka-citta arises to know arammana through the eyes, > ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, it is not without kilesa-vatta because > there is still pleasure or > displeasure in things appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind. Since there is kilesa, there is still cause to perform > kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma. Kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma are the > causes of akusala-vipaka-Citta and kusala-vipaka-Citta to arise endlessly. > As long as panna has not been developed until it is sharp enough to clearly > realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, the three samsara-vatta, kilesa-vatta, > kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, would continually arise and evolve. > > Paticcasamuppada means the dhamma that depends on each other to arise as > kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, that is, avijja is the cause for > sankhara to arise (kilesa-vatta is the paccaya for kamma-vatta to arise), > and sankhara is the cause for vinnana to arise (kamma-vatta is the paccaya > for vipaka-vatta to arise). > > Avijja, or moha-cetasika, is the akusala-dhamma that does not know realities > as they really are: the kilesa-vatta that is paccaya for the sankhara to > arise. > > The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, > apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with > rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma or > the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > > Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for > vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the > distinct kamma. > > Therefore the paticcasamuppada manifested by the Buddha is the reality that > arises and evolves with each instant. This is constant no matter in which > explanation, for example from the perspective of the four aramattha-dhamma, > the four ariya-sacca or the paticcasamuppada." End quote. > > If you compare the two passages you can see the major differences, but in > the Pali texts I suspect they may be closer than one might think. I would > suggest you check K.S.'s references (you will find that they are all either > from the Tipitaka or the Commentaries) when you read the entire chapter (and > the entire book, I hope, one day! I will be putting at least one more > chapter up today or tonight). And you can take up the differences in your > discussions with her in the States! That should make such interesting > reading, would you send us some notes or a short article on the sessions > afterwards? (Again my lobha is manifesting itself, but then I am only a > student with such a long way to go!!!) > > One other major difference is the great importance you give to the > Bodhisatava, especially in Thailand we have the growing cult of the Kwan > Yin, whereas in the Theravada tradition it is mainly what the Buddha taught > that matters, after all in his last life he also, as the Bodhisatava, lost > his way for six years because if previous akusala kamma, and practiced other > things before becoming enlightened, including near torture excercises. > Still it is better than some Thai Buddhists who claim that this is already > past the Buddha's era and time to prepare for the Metteya Buddha to come, > and have begun in an incomprehensible manner to criticize the Gotama Buddha > even now (though I am glad to say that he was so far the unique case). > > I think you will find that the Theravada tradition stresses the study of the > Abhidhamma, which K.S. regards as the key to the comprehension of the > Tipitaka as a whole. As it is often said, even as we discuss this, what is > there but nama and rupa, or citta, cetasika and rupa? > > Amara 271 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 4:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > I am new to your study group, but much appreciated the message sent >with >its discussion and explanation of the steps in the arising of kamma. I have >always felt intimidated by the use of all those Pali terms, but am getting >less frustrated by it and am beginning to learn them with the help of a >Pali >dictionary which my son, a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok, had >given >me. But, as you state toward the end of your writing, it is emphasized in >the Theravada tradition that it is through the study of Abhidhamma, (and >most importantly, vipassana) that a real understanding of all those arising >states can come about. Thus, I would like to discuss questions that arise >from studying the Abhidhamma. If you, or anyone else you know, would like >to discuss such questions, please pass my e-mail on to them. >Many thanks, >Bongkojpriya Yugala Dear Bongkojpriya Yugala, On behalf of the entire group, welcome to the discussions! As you could see if you went through our archives at , you are in the right place if you wish to discuss the dhamma, which also means the truth or the Buddha's teachings. Any subject is therefore relevant, but the abhidhamma being about all realities, and the first of the texts that is predicted to disappear in the future as Buddhism ends, as well as a unique science not found in any other religions or sciences of the world, which makes it a very special study and I am very glad you are interested in it. We will try to answer any questions you have or find out the answers for you from experts in the field. I personally like discussions since they make me think about things I sometimes take for granted or have forgotten, as well as learn new things when I look up the references or ask the authorities on the subject. Looking forward to your messages, Amara 272 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:35am Subject: Egroups technical problem Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? since egroups changed around i have been getting my messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok now though as I am getting the most recent. It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice a statement under help saying that they had problems. Robert 273 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 11:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, I just saw your message in the archives. For some reason it didnt come to my server. Your comments are well-worth investigating as there is much confusion about these matters. You wrote that "I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration." Could you explain in more detail by "in my experience"? Also could you tell us what "Right Concentration" is when you have it? I want to write a useful response to your comments and some extra details give my reply clear direction. Thanks Robert 274 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the new foundation building starting in May. The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. If this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at this egroup address). For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at this e-groups address. The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have copies. Regards, Ivan 275 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 0:30pm Subject: welcome Bongkojpriya Dear Bongkojpriya (Betty), Welcome to the group. You are in a great place to learn about the finer details of Dhamma: Bangkok has many helpful people - most notably Sujin Boriharnwanaket. The foundation also has many books for free distribution (for some reason though they are always running out of English copies). Did you see Ivans message today about the meetings in English? It would be of great benefit for you to attend. But please don't limit yourself to the meetings: We look forward to your comments and questions on the discussion group. Robert --- 276 From: Heng Shun Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Amara, I carefully read the quote from Khun Sujin's Summary of Paramatthadhamma, Chapter 7 that you posted in response to my quote on the pratitya-samutpada from the Ten Grounds of a Bodhisattva Chapter in the Avatamsaka Sutra. In the Summary Khun Sujin explained quite well the continuing process of the samsara-vatta as long as prajna/panna remains undeveloped enought to clearly realize the arya-satya-dharma/ariya-sacca-dhamma. I am in total agreement with everything that Khun Sujin said (I do look forward to reading the entire Summary). According to the Mahayana the Bodhisattva out of great compassion (maha-karuna) for all beings (knowing clearly "beings" are merely mental constructs) who are undergoing duhkha/dukkha as they are bound to the samsara-vatta, makes vows (pranidhana) to assist them with the ultimate aim of being a major supporting condition to enable them to realize arya-satya-dharma. He makes these vows and cultivates the six paramitas of dana, shila, kshanti, virya, dhyana and prajna for life after life after life for literally millions of lifetimes. The citta stream of the Bodhisattva is thus quite unique. The force of his vows causes him to remain in samsara-vatta even though at one point his accumulations are such that he has the requisite prajna for the realization of arya-satya-dharma. According to the Ten Grounds of a Bodhisattva chapter, the Bodhisattva on the 8th Ground (Bhumi), that of Acala (Unmoving) has realized Arahatship, but through the force of his vows based on great compassion, he remains in the samsara-vatta, until he realizes the omniscience (sarvajna) of a Buddha. Granted this teaching seems to be unique to the Mahayana, however I look forward to learning more about the special qualities of the citta stream of the Bodhisattva in Abhidhamma as expounded by Khun Sujin. I'm sure there must be a big difference between the citta stream of the Bodhisattva as compared to the common worldling (prthagjana/puthujjana) in Khun Sujin's exposition of Abhidhamma. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 277 From: amara chay Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] >I look >forward to learning more about the special qualities of the citta stream of >the Bodhisattva in Abhidhamma as expounded by Khun Sujin. I'm sure there >must be a big difference between the citta stream of the Bodhisattva as >compared to the common worldling (prthagjana/puthujjana) in Khun Sujin's >exposition of Abhidhamma. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun Reverend sir, I'm not sure that even K.S. could give you a glimpse of the Buddha's mind even though she has explained the mechanisms along with other kinds of citta in her book. Only an equal can really tell what it is truly like, and not even the arahanta are always right about other people's thoughts: there was one incident in the Tipitaka where two arahanta in two cities had heard of each other so often that they set out for the other's vihara to meet in person. Midway they happened to spend the night at the same place and talked for a long time, apparently having a great discussion, and parted in the morning to reach the other's dwellings only to learn that the other had gone precisely to see them in their own home towns. Therefore being an arahanta does not mean that they had any supernatural powers, (though a good number certainly did) they could not read minds, otherwise they would have recognized one another. But none of them had any more kilesa or any more unpleasant feeling in their lives, nor any misunderstanding of the realities that appear to them. Even then the purity of their thoughts can only be undestood theoretically, what peace it must be to have kiriya citta in all the javana-vithi one can only imagine! The theoretic part is very well explained by K.S. in her book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', three quarters of which is now in the advanced section of and I will be adding another two chapters today, in case any English readers would like to read them before K. S. arrives in the States. I found that all the questions I had about nama and rupa are answered there, plus much more I would have never had the knowledge to ask, so perhaps it might provide grounds for a deeper discussion then, Your friend in the dhamma, Amara 278 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 4:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] dear venerable Heng shun, I am very glad that you can find so much agreement between the Theravada and Mahayana abhidhamma. I remember that when I read the literature from your temple (a number of years ago)that I found it to be much closer to theravada than other types of Mahayana. Even the vinaya had many similarities. Your tradition is clearly a very early strand of Mahayana. On the issue of the cittas of Bodhisattas I think khun amara answered well. Just one thing for me to add. In one sense the Buddha was totally different from us - unlimited compassion and wisdom. In another sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- there were only moments of citta , cetasika and rupa. Robert --- 279 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English I'm new to the study group. Would you kindly tell me where the "new foundation building" is located. I would be very interested in discussions centering on Abhidhamma, but will be in the States throughout the month of May. May I assume that the 391 telephone number given below is in Bangkok? Bongkojpriya Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: Ivan Walsh Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 11:12 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English > Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the > new foundation building starting in May. > The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. If > this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let > Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at > this egroup address). > For those who can't attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at > this e-groups address. > The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have > copies. > Regards, > Ivan > 280 From: amara chay Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:39pm Subject: 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear friends in the Dhamma, I have just finished uploading more of the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', including a chapter on vipassana. , advanced section, 'Summary... '. But for beginners I would suggest starting at the beginning of the book and take your time to take in the information, to me it does not seem important how much we read or remember, but how much we understand, and apply the theories in everyday life. How is one's body different from a dead person if not through our having nama while they have only rupa, for example? Your rupa might even be interchangeable, as through transplants, but without the condition for nama to arise, it would not. How are the realities that appear to us through the senses different? The Buddha taught us that all are different realities, so how is color different from sound? One can prove his teachings for ourselves by experiencing each different reality fully and seeing them for what they really are, instead of seeing only people and things, but as they appear through the eyes, the ears, etc. The six senses are the only ways you can learn about anything, millions of theories and studies can only be learnt through these six doorways, but do we know them as they really are? Panna in the Buddhist sense is to attain the most powerful levels of knowledge about the truth, ones that can eradicate kilesa. The beginning of the development of panna is through intellectual understanding of the teachings, and the practical study of realities as they appear to you. You will find the subject inexhaustible and always changing, it is very hard to get bored when one has some awareness of the present, ever evolving moment, and even science will agree that at this very moment the atoms in your hand are changing, even if you cannot see it. But even what you can see is impermanent, once the moment is gone it can never come back again. This is all dhamma, the truth. The 'Summary...' will tell you in much more detail what the Buddha taught about the realities of our own lives. I hope you will find it interesting, I myself am fascinated by the Buddha's omniscience! Amara 283 From: Heng Shun Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 6:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. Robert and Amara, Appreciated your comments. I'm enjoying reading the Summary, and will try to have it completed before Khun Sujin's visit. We have done a detailed comparison between our Vinaya (we follow the Dharmagupta) and the Theravada. The first 150 rules, including all the major and significant regulations, are identical- the order is a little different. There are some differences in the minor training rules. You had also said, "Just one thing for me to add. In one sense the Buddha was totally different from us - unlimited compassionand wisdom. In another sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- there were only moments of citta ,cetasika and rupa." This sounds like it could have come right out of one of the Mahayana Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras would also say even cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 284 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 3:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear Amara Chay, Your message below is particularly cogent and important. Many thanks for thinking of it and sending it out. The study of Dhamma is so vast it is mind boggling to imagine just how much there is! And we have all just barely scratched the surface. This thought occurred to me earlier today while I was listening to the monks chant during a royal ceremony here in Bangkok on the occasion of Songkran, the Thai (and Lao, Cambodian, Burmese) new year. And then, to see the same idea expressed by you when I opened your e-mail on my computer, was a great joy. Sincerely, Betty Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 11:39 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' > Dear friends in the Dhamma, > I have just finished uploading more of the book 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma', including a chapter on vipassana. > , advanced section, 'Summary... '. But for > beginners I would suggest starting at the beginning of the book and take > your time to take in the information, to me it does not seem important how > much we read or remember, but how much we understand, and apply the theories > in everyday life. How is one's body different from a dead person if not > through our having nama while they have only rupa, for example? Your rupa > might even be interchangeable, as through transplants, but without the > condition for nama to arise, it would not. How are the realities that > appear to us through the senses different? The Buddha taught us that all > are different realities, so how is color different from sound? One can > prove his teachings for ourselves by experiencing each different reality > fully and seeing them for what they really are, instead of seeing only > people and things, but as they appear through the eyes, the ears, etc. The > six senses are the only ways you can learn about anything, millions of > theories and studies can only be learnt through these six doorways, but do > we know them as they really are? Panna in the Buddhist sense is to attain > the most powerful levels of knowledge about the truth, ones that can > eradicate kilesa. The beginning of the development of panna is through > intellectual understanding of the teachings, and the practical study of > realities as they appear to you. You will find the subject inexhaustible > and always changing, it is very hard to get bored when one has some > awareness of the present, ever evolving moment, and even science will agree > that at this very moment the atoms in your hand are changing, even if you > cannot see it. But even what you can see is impermanent, once the moment is > gone it can never come back again. This is all dhamma, the truth. The > 'Summary...' will tell you in much more detail what the Buddha taught about > the realities of our own lives. I hope you will find it interesting, I > myself am fascinated by the Buddha's omniscience! > Amara 285 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 4:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. Dear Venerable Heng Shun, Thank you for the information comparing the vinayas – so many similarities. You referred to my comment: "In another > sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- > there were only moments of > citta ,cetasika and rupa." And you said : "This sounds like it could have come right out of one > of the Mahayana > Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras > would also say even > cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun" Glad you could understand what I meant - it might seem a bit strange to some. Now a few words on the nature of dhammas (cittas, cetasikas and rupas). The word dhamma is often translated as reality. But the word reality has connotations of something substantial whereas dhammas , are too evanescent to imagine. As I said recently on this list. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma. But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna- parimita sutta, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we(I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind, and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation. Some might have an idea of a moment as a self-contained unit- sort of like a box that contains things but that is prone to disappear rather quickly. However from the Patthana - the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that "moments" are highly dynamic with influences from past and present factors. The dhammas themselevs are not different form the quality they posses. In fact the subcommentary to the Dhammasangani says that "there is no other thing than the quality born by it" . And no moment is identical with another-It is true that such dhammas as sanna or vedana are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of feeling is exactly the same. I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atom (This is sort of how I saw things in my early days) is not correct. Robert . 286 From: amara chay Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. >I'm enjoying reading the Summary, and will try >to have it completed before Khun Sujin's visit. Reverend sir and dear friends in the dhamma, I have added a short chapter today, the 'Appendix- Rupa', please let me know if you find any linguistic mistakes, it was such a short and technical thing I didn't ask anyone to revise it, so PLEASE tell me if you find anything! Amara 287 From: amara chay Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:49:29 +0700 >The study of Dhamma is so vast it is mind >boggling to imagine just how much there is! And we have all just barely >scratched the surface. This thought occurred to me earlier today while I >was >listening to the monks chant during a royal ceremony here in Bangkok on the >occasion of Songkran, the Thai (and Lao, Cambodian, Burmese) new year. And >then, to see the same idea expressed by you when I opened your e-mail on my >computer, was a great joy. >Sincerely, >Betty Yugala Dear friend in the dhamma, First I would like to thank you for signing our guest book, we really appreciated it, and it made us realize you were titled. May I ask you how you would prefer to be addressed by us? I am a little overwhelmed by the choice, and it would make it so much easier for us if you would settle the matter so we can all call you by the same name or title. Actually I will miss wondering how you prefer to be called! Thank you also for your kind encouragements, Amara Chayabongse 288 From: Mike Potter Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Robert, I am grateful for your inquiry. By "my experience", I refer to the moment when an insight has arisen in my awareness; and on reflection, the conditions that were present when the insight arose, and the causes which precipitated those conditions. I have sometimes experienced insight in daily activities other than meditation, and at those times - on reflection - I have noted that all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path were present and effectively supporting that experience in some significant degree. But the deepest insights into anicca, dukkha and anatta have arisen for me while on meditation retreat, after several days of constant practice of mindfulness in the four deportments, when the mind is calm and receptive, and has let go of a "self" reference. Here, too, all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path were present and effectively supporting the experience. I understand there to be three kinds of samadhi (concentration): absorption, access, and momentary concentration. I do not practice the jhanas, nor do I strive to achieve either absorption or access concentration. Although these can be suitable means of preparation for vipassana, my aim in meditation is "momentary concentration", where no attempt is made to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from my field of attention. Generally, I find that the mind is too scattered, and effect of the hindrances too intense, to have a deep experience of anicca, dukkha and anatta without the support that meditation provides. I also find that periodic retreats (either in formal retreats with my teacher or on self retreats) and my daily meditation practice support my practice of vipassana in daily life. Momentary concentration suppresses the hindrances to a degree equal to access concentration, so the mind is like a cool, still lake where the ripple of even the smallest pebble dropped into it can be experienced at every point on the lake's surface. When my mind has reached momentary concentration, mindfulness is directed to the changing states of mind and body, noticing any phenomena that presents itself, and maintaining a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As this noticing continues, mindfulness become stronger and stronger, until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events, rather than on a particular object that would support access or absorption concentration. Any perception of "self" (even an observer) is not present - only the rising and falling of phenomena, including mindfulness itself, due to causes and conditions. So this is what Right Concentration is when I have it, with its supports and requisite conditions: "a singleness of mind equipped with these seven path factors - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness." (MN 117) Yours in the Dhamma, Mike Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I just saw your message in the archives. For some > reason it didnt come to my server. > Your comments are well-worth investigating as there is > much confusion about these matters. > > You wrote that "I don't mean to imply that Right > Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and > walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own > experience, such conditions seem to be the most > supportive of the arising of Right Concentration." > > Could you explain in more detail by "in my > experience"? Also could you tell us what "Right > Concentration" is when you have it? > > I want to write a useful response to your comments and > some extra details give my reply clear direction. > Thanks > Robert > 289 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 6:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom Robert, You said, "Every conditioning factor is similarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the Theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna-paramita Sutras, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we (I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation.....I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atoms is not correct." Thanks for clarifying for everyone that the Theravada, like the Mahayana, expounds the unsubstantiality of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas. I also want to clarify that Mahayana as based on the traditional Sutras does not really have as radical an interpretation of these ideas as some people proclaim. Some people talk of the "emptiness" of "dharmas", that is cittas, cetasikas and rupas, as is expounded in the Heart Sutra, and grossly misinterpret this to mean the "non-existence" of Samsara. Then they go on to say, believe and often act in a way as if to say, "Samsara is 'empty', therefore I can create whatever karma I wish, because karma and its results are empty." Thus they deny the most fundamental Buddhist teaching of cause and effect, karma and vipaka- "it's all empty" they say. I've even heard of a so-called teacher (now deceased) who said it didn't matter that he was an audacious drunkerd and womanizer because he had "crazy wisdom" based on this gross misunderstanding of emptiness. Where's the basis for these ideas in the traditional Mahayana Sutras? In the stories of the Buddha and his followers, have we ever heard of such concepts? Let me clarify this point. The traditional Mahayana Sutras do not teach this idea at all. Let's look at the famous quote on Nirvana from the Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is not earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of thought nor lack of thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, or both together, or sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no going, no staying, no passing away, and no arising; without support, without duration and without any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my translation) The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the vantage point of "the Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have realized Nirvana with or without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true reality" for them. I cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, what do I mean by "no true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the quote from the Udana above. So this does not mean that Samsara for beings with avidya/avijja-ignorance is experienced in this way. Samsara, as is explained quite thoroughly in the Abhidharma, consists of cittas, cetasikas and rupas that arise and fall away in accordance with the laws of cause and effect continuously. Samsara for those with avidya is not Nirvana. To deny the laws of cause and effect, or proclaim that our own vantage point is the same as that of the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and Arhats is, unfortunately, still a problem that exists in some groups that make up the Buddhist community here in the United States. The Mahayana Sutras, particularly the Avatamska (Flower Adornment; Chinese: Hua Yen) Sutra has a magnificent vision of the Bodhisattva path. It does not teach the denial of the law of karma and vipaka or the non-existence of Samsara. These ideas are gross misinterpretations and "innovations" by people who really need to do a lot more study of the traditional Mahayana Sutras, not to speak of more inner cultivation and practical application of the Dharma in their daily lives. Therefore, although I'm a devoted student of the Mahayana, study of the Abhidharma from the Pali as expounded by Khun Sujin is quite suitable and beneficial- an important tool to the practical task of seeing the true nature of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas in our own personal experience right now. Sincerely in Dharma, Heng Shun 290 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:04pm Subject: Re: Interrelationship between 2 persons' kamma Ven'ble Heng Sun, Firstly, a belated welcome to the list from me. Sarah and I have been in Indonesia for the past week and were not able to connect to the internet at our hotel for more than a few minutes at a time. We are very happy to have you contributing to the discussion. I am not sure, even after seeing Ivan's photo, whether we ever met in Bangkok. My apologies if we did and I have forgotten. I would like to offer some thoughts on the interesting question you posed- >What is the inter-relationship >between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, >when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet >this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause >perfectly corresponds to your result? In abhidhamma terms, I suggest it is not correct to say that the speech is both A's kamma and B's vipaka. A's kamma is the cetana cetasika that arises with the citta. B's vipaka is the moment of experiencing the sound through the eardoor. There is no commonality in abhidhamma terms between the two. Furthermore, if it is B's vipaka not to hear that sound, then conditions will be such (external noise interference, momentary failure of earsense to arise etc) that he does not. The only 'perfect correspondence' at any given moment is between a person's vipaka and his own kamma! Jonothan 291 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Ivan and Elle, This is geat news. Sarah and I will try to get over to Bangkok more often to join you. jonothan >From: "Ivan Walsh" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:12:36 PDT > >Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the >new foundation building starting in May. >The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. >If >this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let >Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at >this egroup address). >For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at >this e-groups address. >The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have >copies. >Regards, >Ivan > 292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem I have had a similar problem to Robert. I suggest other members also go directly to the group's website and check if there are any messages posted which have not been received by email. To do this, simply point your browser to- and click on 'Messages'. Jonothan >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:35:58 -0700 (PDT) > > > Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? >since egroups changed around i have been getting my >messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of >dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from >days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok >now though as I am getting the most recent. >It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice >a statement under help saying that they had problems. >Robert > 293 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 4:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, How much of how we interpret experiences, especially spiritual experiences, is colored by the tradition we belong to? The Mormons who visit me say that they have had some experience of GOD – when I ask what thus experience was I get different answers- clarity; a feeling of intense purity, it varies. ….I have an American friend who told me he has had “mind to mind Transmission” from his Tibetan Guru – apparently this is not full enlightenment but a significant stage on the way in his tradition. I meet other people and read books where different unusual experiences are seen to be signs of deep spiritual progress. Vedanta is different from Zen, the Sufi path different again. The Buddha used manifold means to help us see the truth: In the Netti-pakarana (translated as The Guide PTS ,attributed by the Theravada tradition to Maha- kaccana , the arahant who was foremost in elucidating in detail what had been said in brief). The Netti explains that one of the ways to group beings is according to whether they have outstanding, medium or blunt faculties. (p137 , 16 modes of Conveying in Combined treatment, vii knowledge of the disposition of creatures faculties). It says that the Buddha teaches in detail to those with blunt faculties (because those with outstanding faculties learn quickly and do not need such detail). Another section states that “the Buddha discloses quiet to those of keen faculties, quiet and insight to those with medium faculties and insight alone to one with blunt faculties.” Under which category do we fit? I know that I am one with exceedingly blunt faculties, a slow one. Thus I need the many details from the suttas and Abhidhamma, and commentaries, and that the most important work I can do is that of insight. Thus even when I am busy I learn to study realities (sometimes – no me who could decide to always have awareness) – what else can I do. Time is running out: soon this life is over and a new life begins. The Netti says “‘Giving right view first place’: when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, and from right concentration that right deliverance is given being, and from right deliverance that right knowing and seeing of deliverance is given being.” .. An aeon is long: so long it is hard to say. The number of aeons is beyond count – for thus long have we been bound by delusion and craving. How many times have we followed non- Buddhist teachings? How many times have we followed imitation Buddhist practices? For how many lives have we been convinced that we were on the right path, or even enlightened, unaware of subtle micch-ditthi. It is like a friend said to me; we are like pickles in a pickle jar – totally saturated with delusion, aversion and craving. Sometimes the pickling is sweet but there is still somewhere the flavour of self. It is always amazing to me the power of the Dhamma that it can dry this delusion out. So much gratitude to the Buddha for explaining so well, so much gratitude to those monks – the monks at the three great councils, the monks at the Mahavihara in Anauradhapura, Sri Lanka in and the monks in other Buddhist countries who preserved the Tipitaka and commentaries so carefully for these 2600 years. In the Canki sutta (middle length sayings (the 95th sutta) Bharadjiva asks the Buddah about the thing most helpful for final arrival at the truth. The Buddha replied that striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth. “But what.. is most helpful for striving? Scrutiny is most helpful for striving, Bharadvaja. If one does not scrutinize one will not strive; but because one scrutinizes one strives. That is why scrutiny is most helpful for striving. What..is most helpful for scrutiny? Application of the will is most helpful for striving…. What .. is most helpful for application of will? Zeal is most helpful for application of will.. What… is most helpful for zeal? A reflective acceptance of the teachings is most helpful for zeal, Bharadvaja….. What …is most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings? Examination of the meaning is most helpful…for a reflective acceptance of the teachings… What is most helpful for examination of the meaning? Memorising the teachings is most helpful for examining the meaning… What is most helpful for memorising the teachings? Hearing the teachings is most helpful for memorising the teaching… What is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma? …” Where are we now – have we heard enough? Have we fully examined the meaning – What does reflective acceptance mean? By some standards I now live a busy life- work, family. At other times I am by myself- In December I was in India for 2 weeks visiting the holy places. Is there a difference? Is it different when I teach a class of students or when I take time to walk in the hills near the city? The situations, the problems, the stories of life, are the shadows of realities.As insight develops we may begin to find the stories of life less interesting. We begin to see below the surface. Past or future mistakes or achievements, no matter big or small, are just icing - bitter or sweet. The shadows, the concepts, are still there but the real interest lies with dhammas, with studying the momentary realities that are arising at the 6 doors. It becomes so natural – one does not have to try so much to have it. No minding about “situation” about being in a special place, doing special things, learning special techniques. Sometimes, it is true, we go off the path, we neglect the study of dhammas or do regrettable things. How could it be otherwise, we have for uncountable aeons accumulated desire, aversion, and ignorance- they are not quickly overcome. Do we have the courage not to overestimate our abilities? Can we, instead of looking at a moment of sati as an achievement, see it as just another dhamma, a conditioned phenomena, not ours? Can we look at moments of calm as merely namas- no more important than any other moment? Can we, instead of hiding our defilements bring them out in the open?-they can teach us who we really are. You wrote that you have right view now – but there are levels of right view, levels of wrong view. We should become more modest in our assessment of progress. Everything is different from how we thought it would be, how we thought it was. The whole world is completely different, the practice, this moment, everything. It is like peeling a large onion, nothing is left, no core. Our old way of thinking is gradually overturned. In the beginning it seems like there is “us” making effort. It seems that we must try so hard to understand. Quiet places seem beneficial – if we are in a center with a teacher we hear the Dhamma every day, we are in a different environment from our normal life. The people around us are thinking only of Dhamma . It seems that this helps. If we concentrate we have calmness or unusual experiences, Because of the atmosphere and encouragement it seems that our “mind” turns towards kusala. Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self who can make effort, who can try, who has concentration. No “mind” to make calm. We see that every moment is just like any other moment. There are feeling, perception, mental formations, and material phenomena. The feelings that are so pleasant are just feelings, the ones that are so bad are just feelings. The perception of “pure clarity” is just perception, the perception of this moment, just perception. The most refined sensations in the body are just sensations in the body. The most rough sensations just sensations. Whatever “situation” there are only namas and rupas . Direct understanding can come in like a flash of lightning-even when one is tired, worried, distracted. Depending on accumulations one may still value time alone to consider Dhamma. Some people work less, live simple lives. Others naturally think of Dhamma even when they are busy. Others experience realities directly at any time. There is no rule about this: certainly insight can come while one is sitting quietly: but not if wrong view is present. We cannot suddenly rush to clear insight. Even the level of intellectual understanding of Dhamma is not so straightforward. The Kindred sayings XlV (Kindred sayings on the Way Chapter III Perversion the unworthy 9b): “Herein, monks a certain one has wrong view , and the rest.. wrong concentration; but he also has wrong knowledge and wrong liberation.” One like this thinks he is enlightened . This may refer to ways outside the sasana but we should know that there can be wrong paths even within the Buddhist tradition: “this path is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise”: Middle length sayings Sutta 95 Canki. We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. Robert 294 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom >Let's look at the famous quote on Nirvana from the >Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): > > "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is not earth, no water, >no >fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite >consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of thought nor lack of >thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, or both together, or >sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no going, no staying, no >passing away, and no arising; without support, without duration and >without >any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my translation) > > The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the vantage point of "the >Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have realized Nirvana with or >without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true reality" for them. I >cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, what do I mean by "no >true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the quote from the Udana >above. Venerable sir, May I suggest that you are confusing the state of nibbhana and the totally different realities of samsara? They are the direct opposite, and the Buddha and all ariya puggala realize this, though through different levels of panna. I suggest you go through the section on the different levels of nana of vipassana in the chapter on Vipassana we just added to the 'Summary' in the advanced section, . Having attained arahantship does not mean that the buddha and the arahanta do not have any more kamavaccara citta (as opposed to the rupavacara brahma up to the arupavacara brahma levels), but they have eradicated kilesa level by level until they have none left and therefore no more cause for rebirth. Without any kilesa, all their akusala as well as kusala citta that are kamma no longer arise, and only kiriya citta do in any circumstances, in the vithi citta, which is where you accumulate further vipaka (the result of kamma). With no more causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain parinibbana of absolute nothingness, the utmost peace, the cessation of samsara for them. But while they had not yet attained parinibbana, they still have the vipaka of former lives of wherever they were living, even after they have achieved nibbhana. Any citta of the kamavacara bhumi is still a kamavacara citta, so they still see good or bad sights even as we do, according to thier individual vipaka. Their reactions to them is no longer kamma, though, but kiriya citta, no matter the bhumi they are in. Which may explain how they can endure such hardship for others even after they had attained the absolute happiness of nibbhana, they stayed on in this comparatively lowly world, just a step above the hell worlds: no matter the hardship or the pleasure, all is equal to them, they do not distinguish themselves from others or things any more (no more mana!). This reminds me of how my mother cried on one trip (with Khun Sujin) to Gaya, at the foot of the Bodhi tree. She was so grateful and at the same time as, probably from an excess of maternal instinct, so sorry for the Buddha, the greatest prince of the time, with such great physical as well as mental prowess that he could lift an impossibly heavy bow with his toes and shoot I don't remember how many arrows with superhuman accuracy when his father told him to on the occasion of his sixteenth birthday in the presence of all the princes of the land. (No wonder when, after he was enlightened and went to a city, the King came out to offer him his throne- they all knew one another). In his great generosity, however, he abandoned all the palaces, his perfect family, his entire inheritance, in order to find a way to end all kilesa to share with the world. He not only left all the finery but had to live on what was offered him, on 'food he had never even smelled, much less seen'. Later, after attaining the jhanas, and so skilled at performing all kinds of miracles that his teachers asked him to stay on and teach, he realized that that was not the right path and set out on his own until he found it, making his purity that of the Sammasammbuddha, of unequal knowledge and prowess of supreme mental and physical nature above that of any deva or brahma, he walk hundreds of yojana in order to preach to a single person in whom he saw the right accumulations. He performed the most difficult 'miracles' to show the jadila (I don't remember the correct spellings, but the fire worshippers) that he had mastered their art but that it still was not the right path, and told their master that he was not an arahanta, while the Buddha was, and was able to enlighten them too. When there was a great famine and a bhikku asked if the bhikku himself could perform a miracle to estract food from deep in the ground, he did not give permission- apparently this is not what they should be involved with. And for forty-five years he taught priests, bhikkus, kings, merchants, farmers and slaves indifferently, so that the land was for a time filled with arahanta like himself. Even in his last rebirth, when a deva invited him while he was still in a heavenly plane, to enlighten the earth, he made careful consideration when and where it might do the most good. For example he chose an era when human lifespan was at an average of a century (though he attained parinibbhana at eighty, many of his great disciples lived to be 120 years old, if I remember correctly, such as Maha Kassapa). A longer lifespan would make it harder to see the impermanence of samsara while a shorter one would be over too soon. The world we are in is also the lowest of the bhumi to have enough kusala citta to learn about dhamma, any lower and the suffering and ignorance would be too great. Everything was due to over four hundred thousand kappas, I don't know how many millions of eons, of planning and perparation from the day he was predicted to be a future Buddha by the Buddha Dipankara. He spent innumerable lifetimes studying with every bahu sutta no matter who, or where, in order to become enlightened and find us the best and only way to eradicate kilesa, and we are so lucky to still have his teachings availabe to us, even at this mid-era of Buddhism. For a greater detail of the Buddha's life, there is a book in Thai taken from some of Khun Sujin's lectures, but you will have a long wait before I finish the translation, I've only begun, I'm sorry to say. I still work on it when I have the time, and it's not such a big book, so please be patient! (I just realized I am beginning to sound like a trite movie trailer!!!) Amara 295 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English >Sarah and I will try to get over to Bangkok more often >to join you. >jonothan Jonothan and Sarah, I was just wondering what happened to you. I'm also glad you'll be coming more often, and Khun Sujin will be so pleased! Amara 296 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Ven Heng Shun and Betty as Jonothan has mentioned, we've been away and belatedly as others have said we're very glad you've found your way here. Mike, it's also great to read your contributions. In fact I'm a little overwhelmed as I try to catch up in the limited time I have available! Lots of great correspondence and some very useful responses and reminders from Robert and Amara too. There are also a few new 'lurking' members...everyone is welcome..Just an occasional short note to show your presence would be appreciated but not compulsory! We hope you find the list as useful as we do and are just delighted it functions so well in our absence. Actually we're all 'new' as we only started the list a couple of days before this year...a millenium gift to us all! Finally, please use subject headings and modify them as appropriate as it helps everyone to track messages....we all forget sometimes and some of us make other silly mistakes...that's fine too! Sarah 297 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem >Robert, jonothan has responded to this, but I'll just add that sometime a couple of messages didn't come to my email and sometimes they come in the wrong order. However they came correctly to Jonothan's which suggests s'times it's a problem w/ one's email server rather than w/ E groups... Sarah > > Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? >since egroups changed around i have been getting my >messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of >dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from >days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok >now though as I am getting the most recent. >It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice >a statement under help saying that they had problems. >Robert 298 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Ivan & Elle, Thanks so much for keeping us informed...let us know how the discussions go. It 's good to have proper recording too. As Jonothan has said, I too hope that now we're over health scares & moves, we can get over more often. We never know! i know you'll be off very soon w/ K.Sujin to California. I hope you all have a useful and enjoyable trip. Pls pass on our best wishes to K.Sujin for the trip too. We look f/w to hearing any news of discussions held while you're away or on your return. On our much needed R&R in Bali, we enjoyed reading Nina's account of the trip and discussions in India last year which you joined. jonothan had organised to go, booked, paid and was greatly looking forward to it. Just before the trip he was told he needed urgent surgery and had to cancel. We have examples like this all the time...we choose route A and end up on route B by conditions...no self who knows or can control even the next moment of seeing... Elle, we'd love to hear any comments, questions, views or stories from you here on the list too! Sarah >Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the >new foundation building starting in May. >The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. >If >this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let >Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at >this egroup address). >For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at >this e-groups address. >The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have >copies. >Regards, >Ivan 299 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Inter-relationship and kamma Dear Ven Heng Shun, Robert and Jonothan (just today) have given excellent responses to your good question. Like Robert, I find it very helpful to read, consider and understand a little about paccaya. Nina's book on paccaya has been very helpful to me. It reminds us that kamma is only one of 24 conditions and for this moment of say 'seeing' to arise, many different conditions are at work like perhaps the ingredients in a soup. With such ingredients in such and such quantity added at such and such time, the final taste of the soup or in this case the 'seeing' could not be any other way. No self at all. Thinking of concepts such as about the 'inter-relationship' or about others' kamma or whatever are just that...concepts. The thinking and the seeing can be understood as realities. The concepts remain concepts. Best regards, Sarah >There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in The >Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma. Kamma is >the most imporatnt from an ethical point of view but >others work their way also. Extremely complex but then >so is this confusing knot we call life. The Buddha >classified conditions in the simplest most accurate >way so that we could - as much as we can - untangle >the mess. >Robert > 300 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 10:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom dear venerable Heng Shun, I have to say I am getting rather impressed. It is wonderful that you are so eager, even after so many years as a monk, to keep investigating. This must be due to accumulations from this and past lives. Thank you very much for explaining the original ideas of Mahayana - which I see are much closer to theravada than I had thought. I think the more we learn about abhidhamma the more we stop thinking about labels (such as theravada and mahayana ). Please keep up the good work. Oh, and if one of your samaneras happens to have a taperecorder I would love to receive a copy of your talks with Khun sujin. (Please don't go to too much trouble though. I know your temple keeps strict vinaya - so if it is bothersome to arrange such things please forget I asked.\ robert- --- Heng Shun wrote: > Robert, > > You said, "Every conditioning factor is > similarly evanescent as is > every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is > to highlight the > Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the > Theravada is not quite as > radical in its interpretation of reality as the > Prajna-paramita Sutras, it > does nevertheless demolish any ideas of > substantiality. I think this needs > consideration as we (I mean Theravada people) are > prone to talk about > "moments" of mind and so on. However what we mean > by moments is rather open > to interpretation.....I write all this as I want to > emphasize that any idea > of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atoms > is not correct." > > Thanks for clarifying for everyone that the > Theravada, like the > Mahayana, expounds the unsubstantiality of cittas, > cetasikas, and rupas. > > I also want to clarify that Mahayana as based > on the traditional Sutras > does not really have as radical an interpretation of > these ideas as some > people proclaim. Some people talk of the > "emptiness" of "dharmas", that is > cittas, cetasikas and rupas, as is expounded in the > Heart Sutra, and grossly > misinterpret this to mean the "non-existence" of > Samsara. Then they go on > to say, believe and often act in a way as if to say, > "Samsara is 'empty', > therefore I can create whatever karma I wish, > because karma and its results > are empty." Thus they deny the most fundamental > Buddhist teaching of cause > and effect, karma and vipaka- "it's all empty" they > say. I've even heard > of a so-called teacher (now deceased) who said it > didn't matter that he was > an audacious drunkerd and womanizer because he had > "crazy wisdom" based on > this gross misunderstanding of emptiness. Where's > the basis for these ideas > in the traditional Mahayana Sutras? In the stories > of the Buddha and his > followers, have we ever heard of such concepts? > > Let me clarify this point. The traditional > Mahayana Sutras do not > teach this idea at all. Let's look at the famous > quote on Nirvana from the > Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): > > "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is > not earth, no water, no > fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere > of infinite > consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere > of thought nor lack of > thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, > or both together, or > sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no > going, no staying, no > passing away, and no arising; without support, > without duration and without > any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my > translation) > > The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the > vantage point of "the > Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have > realized Nirvana with or > without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true > reality" for them. I > cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, > what do I mean by "no > true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the > quote from the Udana > above. > > So this does not mean that Samsara for beings > with > avidya/avijja-ignorance is experienced in this way. > Samsara, as is > explained quite thoroughly in the Abhidharma, > consists of cittas, cetasikas > and rupas that arise and fall away in accordance > with the laws of cause and > effect continuously. Samsara for those with avidya > is not Nirvana. To deny > the laws of cause and effect, or proclaim that our > own vantage point is the > same as that of the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and Arhats > is, unfortunately, > still a problem that exists in some groups that make > up the Buddhist > community here in the United States. > > The Mahayana Sutras, particularly the Avatamska > (Flower Adornment; > Chinese: Hua Yen) Sutra has a magnificent vision of > the Bodhisattva path. > It does not teach the denial of the law of karma and > vipaka or the > non-existence of Samsara. These ideas are gross > misinterpretations and > "innovations" by people who really need to do a lot > more study of the > traditional Mahayana Sutras, not to speak of more > inner cultivation and > practical application of the Dharma in their daily > lives. > > Therefore, although I'm a devoted student of > the Mahayana, study of the > Abhidharma from the Pali as expounded by Khun Sujin > is quite suitable and > beneficial- an important tool to the practical task > of seeing the true > nature of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas in our own > personal experience right > now. > > Sincerely in Dharma, Heng > Shun 301 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Sarah, Many thanks for your welcome. The messages I've seen from various members of the group are very interesting indeed, although I need to learn a bit more Pali so I can participate properly in the discussions. What "list" are you referring to? If it is a list of all the members and some information about each, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how to get a copy. Thank you. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up > Dear Ven Heng Shun and Betty > > as Jonothan has mentioned, we've been away and belatedly as others have said > we're very glad you've found your way here. Mike, it's also great to read > your contributions. In fact I'm a little overwhelmed as I try to catch up in > the limited time I have available! Lots of great correspondence and some > very useful responses and reminders from Robert and Amara too. > > There are also a few new 'lurking' members...everyone is welcome..Just an > occasional short note to show your presence would be appreciated but not > compulsory! We hope you find the list as useful as we do and are just > delighted it functions so well in our absence. Actually we're all 'new' as > we only started the list a couple of days before this year...a millenium > gift to us all! > > Finally, please use subject headings and modify them as appropriate as it > helps everyone to track messages....we all forget sometimes and some of us > make other silly mistakes...that's fine too! > > Sarah > 302 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 8:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Jonathan, Welcome back. I enjoyed reading your response. I think, however, you'd have to agree that in terms of rupa we are indeed talking about the same rupa held in common. The sound waves generated by my "causal" speech are the same sound waves that you hear as a result of your own karma, as well as "other supporting factors" (as both Amara and Robert pointed out). The cittas and cetasikas are not the same for each of us, but they are based on the same material phenomenon. (If Ivan has your picture, I can see if I recognize you when I see him- I have a fairly good memory). Amara, thanks for your detailed and heart-felt response to my statements. I do agree with most of what you say, with the exception of: ".... the state of Nibbana and the totally different realities of Samsara. They are direct opposite and the Buddha and all Airya Puggala realize this, though through different levels of panna" and the statement: "With no more causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain Parinibbana of absolute nothingness, the utmost peace,the cessation of Samsara for them." This is a place- the realm of the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas- where we must acknowledge a difference between the Theravada and Mahayana. The most important Mahayana Sutras, the Avatamsaka Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, both teach that the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas "never" forsake living beings who are undergoing duhkha in Samsara. From the Mahayana vantage point the quote from the Udana applies to the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas realization of Nirvana with residue here and now. Without avidya they experience Samsara only by means of the force of their vows of great compassion to help all living beings to be liberated from duhkha. This does not negate the vipaka they might experience as you mentioned. However, for them, Nirvana is the only true reality, yet they do not forsake living beings. Therefore, it is said that their experience of Nirvana and Samsara is mutually unobstructive and not different from each other. I cannot overemphasize that this is the realm unique to the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas (according to the Mahayana), who are without avidya. This does not apply to any other living beings in Samsara. I think the Pali Sutras explanation of the Arhat who is experiencing Nirvana with residue makes it quite clear that this state also is really impossible for us to conceive. I recall several times the Buddha said in the Pali Sutras that for the Arhat here and now, "To say that he exists does not apply. To say he does not exist does not apply. To say he both exists and does not exist does not apply. To say that he neither exists or does not exist does not apply." And the famous passage from the Sutta-nipata "When all dharmas are removed, then all ways of speaking about him are not possible." I have deep reverence and gratitude for the sacrifices made by our Buddha for us, as well as his incredible wisdom and skill in teaching, which you described so well. Our teacher often said that there is not a single place on the entire earth where the Buddha had not sacrificed his life for the sake of benefitting livings beings in his past lives while following the Bodhisattva path. I look forward to your translation of the Buddha's life. I can have kshanti in this regard. By the way, when will the Summary be published? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 303 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Robert, I concur with you that "we have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is." I, too, am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. This is why I am traveling to Fresno, California in two weeks to learn from Khun Sujin and others who will be there, and to continue this investigation by listening, considering and applying the teachings in a manner which is in line with my accumulations. But, as I understand it, the other path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to master right view. So I endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the best of my ability, so that they will be mutually supportive and in balance. I appreciate your comments. Mike 304 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 9:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, I think there may be some differences in our interpretation of a few terms. Earlier you wrote that "Any perception of "self" (even an observer) is not present - only the rising and falling of phenomena, including mindfulness itself, due to causes and conditions." Could you expand on what you mean by "the rising and falling of phenomena"? What, exactly, is being perceived? You wrote that: "the other > path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to > master right view. So I > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the > best of my ability, so that they > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view first place’: when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, .." My main point would be that it is so easy to mistake miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for samma-samadhi(right concentration). Even within samma-samadhi there are many different types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. Robert 305 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear K. Amara, Many thanks for your note. But, no need to worry what to call me. For the purposes of this discussion group, please just call me Betty since some confusion might arise from those unfamiliar with Thai titles if they are asked to address me as Mom. Betty 306 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 18, 2000 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Betty, It might help you to have a Pali-English glossary next to you when you read the messages. I believe Amara has one on her web site you could print out and i know Ivan produced a good one that is in the back of some copies of Buddhism in Daily Life. Just 2 or 3 pages. I'm sure one of them will direct you. It would be useful for other members not so familiar with the Pali too. But even then, it takes time and patience... As for the list I referred to, I meant here..all these messages we're all getting...I'm sorry for the confusing techno-talk...these discussion groups are often referred to as 'lists'...that's all. Just ask about anything that's confusing...any qus will be appreciated by everyone! Kashi, a big welcome too belatedly I'm sorry...keep up yr qus to Robert too!! Sarah >Dear Sarah, > Many thanks for your welcome. The messages I've seen from various >members of the group are very interesting indeed, although I need to learn >a >bit more Pali so I can participate properly in the discussions. What "list" >are you referring to? If it is a list of all the members and some >information about each, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how to >get a copy. Thank you. >Betty 307 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 18, 2000 4:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] rt understanding is the key! Dear Mike, Robert & all! I agree with Robert's comment and his quote from Netti-pakarana explains much better than I could that in the development of vipaasana and the noble eightfold path, right understanding is the key. The more understanding there is of different realities, the more rt understanding can and will develop. At first, of course, it will only be intellectual right understanding and there will be much doubt and wrong view in between, but slowly it will grow stronger and firmer. As it develops, the other factors of the eightfold path will develop too with no clinging to an idea of self who needs to 'practice' or 'balance' or control realities in anyway. The other kind of mental development is the development of samatha or calmness (at the highest levels of which we're talking about jhanas, but as Amara explained....not at this time!). Of course any moment of kusala or wholesomeness is to be encouraged and there certainly can be moments of samtha or calmness too. In this case the object of understanding is a concept, not a reality, but there still has to be right understanding (as Robert has pointed out). It is different from the right understanding discussed in the development of the eightfold path. It has to understand or know how the object of samatha can bring calm. For example, if we just concentrate on breath now in a quiet place and feel good, this is attachment with no understanding. If, however, busy as we maybe now, we consider for a moment how our life, our family, friends, possessions, all we hold dear to us, just depend on this one moment of breath, it can be a condition for a moment of wholesome calmness right now. And so with the other objects....hence, understanding and not a quiet spot is the key at this level. Many of Nina's writings, including 'Buddhism in Daily Life' explain in far more detail. Mike, I'm very happy to hear you'll be joining the discussions in Calif. I know you'll raise many of these points with Khun Sujin there and she will give you her explanations which are far clearer than anything we can express here. I really look forward to hearing your comments and any notes about the discussions you care to share either while you're away or on your return. I also hope someone records the discussions. Best regards, Sarah > >You wrote that: "the other > > path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to > > master right view. So I > > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the > > best of my ability, so that they > > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > > > > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view first >place’: when right view is admitted the noble >eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because >it is from right view that right intention is given >being, from right intention that right speech is given >being, from right action that right livelihood is >given being, from right effort that mindfulness is >given being, from right mindfulness that right >concentration is given being, .." > >My main point would be that it is so easy to mistake >miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for >samma-samadhi(right concentration). >Even within samma-samadhi there are many different >types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is >not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. > >Robert 308 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm >".... the state of Nibbana and the totally different realities of Samsara. >They are direct opposite and the Buddha and all Airya Puggala realize this, >though through different levels of panna" and the statement: "With no more >causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain Parinibbana of >absolute nothingness, the utmost peace,the cessation of Samsara for them." > > This is a place- the realm of the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas- >where >we must acknowledge a difference between the Theravada and Mahayana. The >most important Mahayana Sutras, the Avatamsaka Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, >both teach that the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas "never" forsake living >beings who are undergoing duhkha in Samsara. From the Mahayana vantage >point the quote from the Udana applies to the Buddhas and great >Bodhisattvas >realization of Nirvana with residue here and now. > > Without avidya they experience Samsara only by means of the force of >their vows of great compassion to help all living beings to be liberated >from duhkha. This does not negate the vipaka they might experience as you >mentioned. However, for them, Nirvana is the only true reality, yet they >do >not forsake living beings. Therefore, it is said that their experience of >Nirvana and Samsara is mutually unobstructive and not different from each >other. > > I cannot overemphasize that this is the realm unique to the Buddhas >and >great Bodhisattvas (according to the Mahayana), who are without avidya. >This does not apply to any other living beings in Samsara. > > I think the Pali Sutras explanation of the Arhat who is experiencing >Nirvana with residue makes it quite clear that this state also is really >impossible for us to conceive. I recall several times the Buddha said in >the Pali Sutras that for the Arhat here and now, "To say that he exists >does not apply. To say he does not exist does not apply. To say he both >exists and does not exist does not apply. To say that he neither exists or >does not exist does not apply." And the famous passage from the >Sutta-nipata "When all dharmas are removed, then all ways of speaking >about >him are not possible." > > I have deep reverence and gratitude for the sacrifices made by our >Buddha for us, as well as his incredible wisdom and skill in teaching, >which >you described so well. Our teacher often said that there is not a single >place on the entire earth where the Buddha had not sacrificed his life for >the sake of benefitting livings beings in his past lives while following >the >Bodhisattva path. I look forward to your translation of the Buddha's life. >I can have kshanti in this regard. By the way, when will the Summary be >published? Venerable sir, First I have to make my usual appologies and present a corrigendum: in my last posting to you there was a sentence that said, 'Without any kilesa, all their akusala as well as kusala citta that are kamma no longer arise, and only kiriya citta do in any circumstances, in the vithi citta, which is where you accumulate further vipaka (the result of kamma).' I meant to say javana instead of vithi. Another is the part about the prediction to become the Buddha from the Buddha Dipankara, which was 4 asankaya and a hundred thousand kappa ago. As to the Buddha not forsaking us, as we all know, he almost decided against teaching the dhamma, but then founded the greatest religion on earth, left us such a comprhensive teaching I don't think anyone nowadays could read all of it in every intricate detail, although I have yet to ask Khun Sujin something she cannot answer on the subject. People who have been to Nalanda will tell you how huge the ruins of the university was. The Buddha not only endured personal hardship, slanders and all sorts of harmful intents, but wars, crazed animals and bickering humans. Being a bhikku in a religious community you must appreciate the problems of the organisation of the Sankha, even though at first mostly the arahanta would become ordained, the Buddha encouraged people to live their lives in manners natural to them, mostly as laypeople. Which is why the Buddhist comprise four parties, bhikku, bhikkuni, upasaka, upasika. Later as the religion grew, more and more people became ordained and some, including those whose nature was not so pure, causing endless problems that resulted in the 227 rules or vinaya to be established, where before the order was completely conscience governed. If he had lived longer preobably more people would have found new methods of slipping through the rules so that more and more would have been established. As it is, nowadays people tend to try to soften or bend the vinaya to blend in with modern times, to greater and greater detriments of the order, because fewer and fewer people have the nature to live in a way that was natural to the arahanta. When he attained parinibbhana, the Buddha left a glorious order that grew and grew, complete with the dhamma and the sankha, and also the Buddha if one reflects that he said, "Anyone who sees the dhamma is said to have seen the Tathagata" as opposed to, "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know the dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him." The Dhamma is not for everyone- in the Buddha's time it was so, and even more so now, as we can all see everyday in our lives. But for those who seek it, his teaching is still available. Mostly it depends on the individual's accumulations. Before him there were sila, (precepts) and samatha (development of jhana) but no teachings about realities to develop panna to the level of enlightenment, and as the Bodhisatava he was unable to attain it for six years. After his attainment countless became arahanta, including deva and brahma who came to listen to him. And as long as there are people who study the dhamma, he remains with us- until we turn from his teachings. Someone asked me for a mantra to recite a few days ago and I was tempted to send him the one reciting the great qualities of the Buddha, but what he wanted was probably some secret sacret phrases they sell for huge amounts of money these days that was supposed to bring magical beneficience to the person in possession. The Buddha's miraculous beneficience was in fact through his showing us how to develop our own panna to attain nibbhana, cutting this endless samsara and millions upon millions of live ao accumulated kilesa that should keep us here forever in the grips of moments of lobha, dosa and ignorance, illnesses and deaths, that drag us back for more and ever more of the same. Without his teachings and the same ones from all Buddha, there is no way out, there never were. Anumodana in the kusala cetana of all those who study the dhamma, Amara 309 From: Heng Shun Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Amara and Dharma Friends, I'm leaving to go on 3-day retreat in the forest further north from here (I live 120 miles north of San Francisco) with a group of young novices (Shramaneras). I'll be responding to your thoughts on the Buddha's realm when I return. Appreciate the shared wisdom and mutual understanding evinced from these discussions. Sincerely, Heng Shun 310 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' > Many thanks for your note. But, no need to worry what to call me. For >the purposes of this discussion group, please just call me Betty since >some >confusion might arise from those unfamiliar with Thai titles if they are >asked to address me as Mom. >Betty Dear Betty, Thank you for your kind and gentle humour, I really appreciate that! I also have an announcement you might find useful, we have added the address of the foundation as well as the phone number- 174/1 Soi Chareun Nakorn 78, Bukkalo, Bangkok 10600, Tel: (66 2) 468 0239 - to Newsletter 4, newsletter section. as you will see, the building will be open only mid-May, for details about the English discussion groups perhaps it is better to contact Elle and Ivan. Khun Sujin will be attending and you will see that she is one of the world's greatest teachers today, an inexhaustible source of knowledge, as well as a wonderful person. She leaves for the States tomorrow for dhamma discussions as well as a family visit afterwards and will be back for the opening of the building, after which our weekly discussions will start. But as Robert said, please do not restrict your discussions to those sessions, we look forward to your questions and comments here too! Amara 311 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up >It might help you to have a Pali-English glossary next to you when you >read >the messages. I believe Amara has one on her web site you could print out >and i know Ivan produced a good one that is in the back of some copies of >Buddhism in Daily Life. Dear friends in the dhamma, I's sorry to say that we are still working on our glossary, which is based on Alan's in his website at We are still trying to add the Pali terms in the 'Summary' that is not there yet, but in the meantime it is more than adequate for our postings here {it was a great idea to get a glossary, Sarah), and you might try calling the foundation [Tel: (662) 468 0239 ] about the English books. And if you can't get through please tell me because I still have several copies left. Amara 312 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:49pm Subject: Bon Voyage! Elle and Ivan, I would like to wish you a very 'bon voyage' and anumodana for your arranging this great trip, I hope you benefit fully from it yourselves and also have a wonderful time. Please say hello to all our dhamma friends there, especially those who helped you organize it and express my anumodana to them too. And please send us a line now and then when you have a moment, I'm sure we all look forward to the accounts of the discussions, from as many persons and sessions as possible! See you in May, Amara 313 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 19, 2000 1:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Amara, your enthusism and detailed, helpful responses are an inspiration to me and I'm sure to the others reading too. Keep it up! Sarah >The Dhamma is not for everyone- in the Buddha's time it was so, and even >more so now, as we can all see everyday in our lives. But for those who >seek it, his teaching is still available. Mostly it depends on the >individual's accumulations. Before him there were sila, (precepts) and >samatha (development of jhana) but no teachings about realities to develop >panna to the level of enlightenment, and as the Bodhisatava he was unable >to >attain it for six years. After his attainment countless became arahanta, >including deva and brahma who came to listen to him. And as long as there >are people who study the dhamma, he remains with us- until we turn from his >teachings. > >Someone asked me for a mantra to recite a few days ago and I was tempted to >send him the one reciting the great qualities of the Buddha, but what he >wanted was probably some secret sacret phrases they sell for huge amounts >of >money these days that was supposed to bring magical beneficience to the >person in possession. The Buddha's miraculous beneficience was in fact >through his showing us how to develop our own panna to attain nibbhana, >cutting this endless samsara and millions upon millions of live ao >accumulated kilesa that should keep us here forever in the grips of moments >of lobha, dosa and ignorance, illnesses and deaths, that drag us back for >more and ever more of the same. Without his teachings and the same ones >from all Buddha, there is no way out, there never were. > >Anumodana in the kusala cetana of all those who study the dhamma, >Amara >______________________________________________________ 314 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would >like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: ..................... >The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, >apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation >with >rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma >or >the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > >Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for >vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the >distinct kamma. >........... Amara, I was reading over your earlier response which was very detailed and fully of 'meaty' abhidhamma. I have not heard about these 3 kinds of sankhara before and am a little stumped. For example, it says punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala kamma in relation with rupa etc. what does this mean? What about dana for example would this qualify? It seems then we're talking about a story rather than realities...the intention to give at that moment doesn't seem to be about rupa...no, I'm confused. Perhaps you can elaborate (or maybe Robert) w/ simple examples.... Is there further elaboration elsewhere? thanks, Sarah 315 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Robert, I'm still catching up on messsages from our hol...the best part of coming back is checking them! Just read all your very helpful comments below. Keep up your good writing! Sarah ........ ........ > By some standards I now live a busy life- work, >family. At other times I am by myself- In December I >was in India for 2 weeks visiting the holy places. Is >there a difference? Is it different when I teach a >class of students or when I take time to walk in the >hills near the city? The situations, the problems, the >stories of life, are the shadows of realities.As >insight develops we may begin to find the stories of >life less interesting. We begin to see below the >surface. Past or future mistakes or achievements, no >matter big or small, are just icing - bitter or sweet. >The shadows, the concepts, are still there but the >real interest lies with dhammas, with studying the >momentary realities that are arising at the 6 doors. >It becomes so natural – one does not have to try so >much to have it. No minding about “situation” about >being in a special place, doing special things, >learning special techniques. Sometimes, it is true, we >go off the path, we neglect the study of dhammas or do >regrettable things. How could it be otherwise, we have >for uncountable aeons accumulated desire, aversion, >and ignorance- they are not quickly overcome. > >Do we have the courage not to overestimate our >abilities? Can we, instead of looking at a moment of >sati as an achievement, see it as just another dhamma, >a conditioned phenomena, not ours? Can we look at >moments of calm as merely namas- no more important >than any other moment? Can we, instead of hiding our >defilements bring them out in the open?-they can teach >us who we really are. > >You wrote that you have right view now – but there are >levels of right view, levels of wrong view. We should >become more modest in our assessment of progress. >Everything is different from how we thought it would >be, how we thought it was. The whole world is >completely different, the practice, this moment, >everything. It is like peeling a large onion, nothing >is left, no core. Our old way of thinking is gradually >overturned. > >In the beginning it seems like there is “us” making >effort. It seems that we must try so hard to >understand. Quiet places seem beneficial – if we are >in a center with a teacher we hear the Dhamma every >day, we are in a different environment from our normal >life. The people around us are thinking only of Dhamma >. It seems that this helps. If we concentrate we have >calmness or unusual experiences, Because of the >atmosphere and encouragement it seems that our “mind” >turns towards kusala. >Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self >who can make effort, who can try, who has >concentration. No “mind” to make calm. We see that >every moment is just like any other moment. There are >feeling, perception, mental formations, and material >phenomena. The feelings that are so pleasant are just >feelings, the ones that are so bad are just feelings. >The perception of “pure clarity” is just perception, >the perception of this moment, just perception. The >most refined sensations in the body are just >sensations in the body. The most rough sensations just >sensations. Whatever “situation” there are only namas >and rupas . Direct understanding can come in like a >flash of lightning-even when one is tired, worried, >distracted. Depending on accumulations one may still >value time alone to consider Dhamma. Some people work >less, live simple lives. Others naturally think of >Dhamma even when they are busy. Others experience >realities directly at any time. There is no rule about >this: certainly insight can come while one is sitting >quietly: but not if wrong view is present. >We cannot suddenly rush to clear insight. Even the >level of intellectual understanding of Dhamma is not >so straightforward. > > The Kindred sayings XlV (Kindred sayings on the Way >Chapter III Perversion the unworthy 9b): “Herein, >monks a certain one has wrong view , and the rest.. >wrong concentration; but he also has wrong knowledge >and wrong liberation.” One like this thinks he is >enlightened . This may refer to ways outside the >sasana but we should know that there can be wrong >paths even within the Buddhist tradition: “this path >is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, >peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, >subtle, to be experienced by the wise”: Middle length >sayings Sutta 95 Canki. > > We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect >before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what >sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very >much at the investigating stage, the beginning of >right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I >still need to hear more, this life and future lives. > >Robert 316 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 19, 2000 1:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > >And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would > >like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: > >..................... > >The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, > >apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation > >with > >rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma > >or > >the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > > > >Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for > >vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or >the > >distinct kamma. > >........... > > >Amara, I was reading over your earlier response which was very detailed and >fully of 'meaty' abhidhamma. I have not heard about these 3 kinds of >sankhara before and am a little stumped. For example, it says >punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala kamma in relation with rupa >etc. what does this mean? What about dana for example would this qualify? >It >seems then we're talking about a story rather than realities...the >intention >to give at that moment doesn't seem to be about rupa...no, I'm confused. >Perhaps you can elaborate (or maybe Robert) w/ simple examples.... Is there >further elaboration elsewhere? Sarah, I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika that perform the specific function, see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is an excerpt: 4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of cetana that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya because it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is not in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. End quote. If you are still not clear on this we can ask her at the discussion group in May! Amara 317 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 21, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Amara, thanks for yr reply and extra interesting comments. However, I'm none the wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being 'intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we can take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! This list is really encouraging my much neglected abhidhamma study...It's important to always keep in mind the purpose, I find, o'wise it can become another intellectual exercise! Sarah > >Sarah, >I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika >that perform the specific function, see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is >an excerpt: >4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to >perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that >arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a >kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a >sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of cetana >that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other >vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The >cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with >kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a >sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with >akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after >resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or >kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya >because >it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is >not >in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs >the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause >vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the >kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the >akusala-cetana >or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. >End quote. > >If you are still not clear on this we can ask her at the discussion group >in May! > >Amara > 318 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >However, I'm none the >wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being 'intention >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we can >take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! Sarah, I'd like another try at explaining what it is about: >'intention >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? Because there are three abhisankhara; one has to do with the akusala, namely apunnabhisankhara: there is no story, nor person who soes the kamma, but the cetana-cetasika which endeavors, intends to do things- here bad things, akusala-kamma. The second abhisankhara is in fact the first on the list, the punnabhisankhara, the intention to do something kusala, in other words the kusala cetana, in the kamavacara worlds, rupavacara worlds, as opposed to the anenjabhisankhara, which has to do with the arupavacara bhumi, of the arupa brahma. In other words, it is the difference between the kamavacara, rupavacara kusala-citta and those of the jhana that brings about the kind of kusala citta that causes rebirth in the arupa brahma worlds, which are also kusala-citta. But these cetana cetasika are also only realities that are not the selves, although they are powerful enough to produce life itself, of which they are a part, even now as we study the dhamma, the cetana cetasika is accumulating kusala of the rupavacara world in which we live, whether we wanted it to or not, or whether we are conscious of it or not! Amara >I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika > >that perform the specific function , see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is > >an excerpt: > >4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to > >perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that > >arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a > >kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a > >sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of >cetana > >that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other > >vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The > >cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with > >kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a > >sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with > >akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after > >resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or > >kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya > >because > >it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is > >not > >in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs > >the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause > >vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the > >kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the > >akusala-cetana > >or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. > >End quote. 319 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 22, 2000 0:57am Subject: free internet gizmos dear group, I have been using a new type of search machine and find it fanatastic. So as a material sort of dana i though i would pass the tip on. it is called copernicus 2000 and can be downloaded as free software from this site http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000PBB --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike, Robert & all! > > I agree with Robert's comment and his quote from > Netti-pakarana explains > much better than I could that in the development of > vipaasana and the noble > eightfold path, right understanding is the key. The > more understanding there > is of different realities, the more rt understanding > can and will develop. > At first, of course, it will only be intellectual > right understanding and > there will be much doubt and wrong view in between, > but slowly it will grow > stronger and firmer. As it develops, the other > factors of the eightfold path > will develop too with no clinging to an idea of self > who needs to 'practice' > or 'balance' or control realities in anyway. > > The other kind of mental development is the > development of samatha or > calmness (at the highest levels of which we're > talking about jhanas, but as > Amara explained....not at this time!). Of course any > moment of kusala or > wholesomeness is to be encouraged and there > certainly can be moments of > samtha or calmness too. In this case the object of > understanding is a > concept, not a reality, but there still has to be > right understanding (as > Robert has pointed out). It is different from the > right understanding > discussed in the development of the eightfold path. > It has to understand or > know how the object of samatha can bring calm. For > example, if we just > concentrate on breath now in a quiet place and feel > good, this is attachment > with no understanding. If, however, busy as we maybe > now, we consider for a > moment how our life, our family, friends, > possessions, all we hold dear to > us, just depend on this one moment of breath, it can > be a condition for a > moment of wholesome calmness right now. And so with > the other > objects....hence, understanding and not a quiet spot > is the key at this > level. > > Many of Nina's writings, including 'Buddhism in > Daily Life' explain in far > more detail. > > Mike, I'm very happy to hear you'll be joining the > discussions in Calif. I > know you'll raise many of these points with Khun > Sujin there and she will > give you her explanations which are far clearer than > anything we can express > here. I really look forward to hearing your comments > and any notes about the > discussions you care to share either while you're > away or on your return. > > I also hope someone records the discussions. > > Best regards, Sarah > > > >You wrote that: "the other > > > path factors cannot be ignored while one > attempts to > > > master right view. So I > > > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to > the > > > best of my ability, so that they > > > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > > > > > > > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view > first > >place’: when right view is admitted the noble > >eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? > Because > >it is from right view that right intention is given > >being, from right intention that right speech is > given > >being, from right action that right livelihood is > >given being, from right effort that mindfulness is > >given being, from right mindfulness that right > >concentration is given being, .." > > > >My main point would be that it is so easy to > mistake > >miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for > >samma-samadhi(right concentration). > >Even within samma-samadhi there are many different > >types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path > is > >not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. > > > >Robert > > 321 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 0:37am Subject: trip to the States Dear Everyone, Just a short note to let you know that while travelling in the States, between April 27 and May 28, I will be using a hotmail account, should you wish to send me a message. The address will be: beyugala@hotmail.com Looking forward, Fondly, Betty 322 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Betty, Bon voyage and have a wonderful time! If you are anywhere near San Francisco, please look up Khun Sujin et al, you can check her itinerary on the page 'newsletter 1', click on the word click 'here', at the DSDG . At the end of the page there are also some contact numbers and e-mail addresses (for rapidity I would suggest Khun O) as well as the hotel addresses. A few of the members of the discussion group will also be there, including the Ven. Heng Shun and some of his students. Everyone will be so happy if you could join in some of the sessions! Otherwise we hope to see you very soon via e-mail, and once again, Bon voyage, Amara 323 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 25, 2000 5:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Amara, Many thanks. It sounds like punnabhidsnkhara (cetana) quote 'to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa' end quote, actually just means to do kusala -kamma in planes in which rupa arises i.e. here in kamavacara planes and in rupavacara planes...Is that right? Sounds like a translation problem! Sarah > > >However, I'm none the > >wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being >'intention > >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we >can > >take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! > >Sarah, >I'd like another try at explaining what it is about: > > >'intention > >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? > >Because there are three abhisankhara; one has to do with the akusala, >namely >apunnabhisankhara: there is no story, nor person who soes the kamma, but >the >cetana-cetasika which endeavors, intends to do things- here bad things, >akusala-kamma. > >The second abhisankhara is in fact the first on the list, the >punnabhisankhara, the intention to do something kusala, in other words the >kusala cetana, in the kamavacara worlds, rupavacara worlds, as opposed to >the anenjabhisankhara, which has to do with the arupavacara bhumi, of the >arupa brahma. In other words, it is the difference between the kamavacara, >rupavacara kusala-citta and those of the jhana that brings about the kind >of >kusala citta that causes rebirth in the arupa brahma worlds, which are also >kusala-citta. But these cetana cetasika are also only realities that are >not the selves, although they are powerful enough to produce life itself, >of >which they are a part, even now as we study the dhamma, the cetana cetasika >is accumulating kusala of the rupavacara world in which we live, whether we >wanted it to or not, or whether we are conscious of it or not! > >Amara 324 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 25, 2000 5:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A growing list & publishing! Dear friends, I had a long chat w/ Alan yesterday and we were discussing the growing numbers of messages. My experience from other lists (much bigger than this one) have taught me that it's very helpful to either: a) keep a separate account just for this dhamma list so that it is kept separate from other personal or business messages and so one can decide when one is in the 'mood' for checking dhamma list messages and responding. I keep a separate hotmail a/c for this one so I can check it anywhere in the world and from any internet cafe or computer.(The same thing can be achieved by using a filter on yr regular email a/c) b) receive the messages in digest frorm on the usual a/c. Jonothan does it this way in his office. It just means the day's supply of dhamma list messages come in one 'chunk' rather than mixed up w/ others. c) messages can be read on the e groups archives anytime, so it doesn't matter if they are deleted from your a/c. This reminds me, people should feel free to comment on past messages even tho' s.o. else may have given a comprehensive response already! Alan, would you summarise here books waiting to be printed by you (and just printed) and in the case of the former, what kind of funds are needed for the job inc. time of the publisher! I think you mentioned 'Conditions' should be next but needs funds and time. We'd like to make some contribution. i know Robert is also helping. It would also be helpful if from time to time you'd refer people to yr list w/ details of books published (mostly by Nina) and details of where they are available. Robert, Alan's having lost of computer problems at the moment...if he's not able to respond, maybe you can help with the last paragraph! Thanks, Sarah 325 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 2:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >It sounds like punnabhidsnkhara (cetana) quote 'to do kusala-kamma in > >relation with rupa' end quote, actually just means to do kusala >-kamma >in planes in which rupa arises i.e. here in kamavacara planes >and in >rupavacara planes...Is that right? Sounds like a translation >problem! Sarah, Almost, but not quite that, since the anenjabhisankhara can also be done in the kama- and rupa- vacara planes, this is how people accumulate conditions to become the arupa-brahma, for example, in their future lives. Considering how difficult it is, it is almost a futile effort because the end result is not at all appropriate for the study of dhamma... a waste of billions upon billions of years as the being that is all mind and no rupa with which to hear or see to study anything at all. Maybe this is the reason for such a classification: apunna- is not conducive to the study of realities, punna- is perfect, and ananja- is too much of what Weber might call 'abnegation'! Amara 326 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Amara, Many thanks for all your help. I will be in the San Francisco area from May 21-28 and will contact Khun O and Khun Jack beforehand so that I might be able to meet them while there. Regards, Betty Y. 327 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 4:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Betty, I'm sorry to hear that you will not be able to join in the dhamma discussions with Khun Sujin, as she will have left California by May 2nd for a family visit in another state. But on May 17 she will have returned to Bangkok and the next Saturday our English sessions will begin, during which we look forward to questions and comments from you and our friends in the dhamma, Bon voyage once again, Amara 328 From: Heng Shun Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 5:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Dear Friends in the Dharma, I just wanted to mention a little bit of news about our experience in meeting and participating in the discussions with Ajahn Sujin at Wat Buudhanasorn in Fremont (close to San Francisco & closer to San Jose). Five young novice monks (Shramaneras) accompanied me- they are 16 to 18 years of age (all have been novices for six years) and one 22 year old. We participated in four discussion periods on three days. First, I must point out that Elle was very diligent in tape-recording everything so that people will be able to utilize these discussions for study in the future. I also must mention that the Bhikshus at the temple were very hospitable, and provided splendid accomodations for us when we had our meals. We felt very much at home, as all the people in the temple were quite friendly and helpful. Also, the temple is quite beautiful- just like the Wats in Thailand. It took a couple of sessions for the Shramaneras to get used to the Abhidharma Pali terminology- they are somewhat familiar with the Chinese terms, so I would sometimes interject to tell them the Chinese. Ajahn Sujin had Jack assist in explaining some of the most basic ideas, so that she could utilize her energy and time for more complicated ideas, or expand, which she often did, on the basics. Jack did a very good job in assisting her. Her English is much, much better than it was in 1973 and 1974. I talked to her outside the formal discussion once, with just a couple of participants, and explained what our beliefs as Mahayana Buddhists were, and on the last day I asked some questions concerning our beliefs. This is a brief summary of those exchanges. I mentioned that we have the wish and vow to remain in Samsara for millions and millions of lifetimes to cultivate the Bodhisattva Path. She asked why we would want to continuously experience the conditioned arising and falling away of citta, cetasikas, and rupa for such a long period of time. Wouldn't it be better to develop prajna/panna now? She also asked if we believe if everyone in Samsara can become enlightened, since I mentioned that we want to remain in Samsara until all beings are enlightened. I said that according to our Sutras in the Chinese Buddhist Canon, it really does not clearly state that all beings will definitely become enlightened, but that doesn't matter to us, because we still have that wish. I think the most interesting exhange was on the last day. I asked Ajahn Sujin to explain the Bodhisattva Path in terms of the Pali Abhidharma. She said it really does not matter whether we refer to the terms puthujjana, Arahant, or Bodhisattva, because we still need to see the characteristics of nama and rupa as they arise and fall away in the present moment. I thought that was a very good answer and an approach that avoids unnecessary conflicts between the traditions. She also told me after this session, that she was suprised to learn of the great similarities between the Mahayana and Theravada, as she had never really looked too deeply into the Mahayana (particularly our tradition based on the Chinese Buddhist Canon). I think Jack had a little trouble comprehending that even though we are quite aware (painfully aware) that we are merely common worldlings/ puthujjanas (just beginners), yet we have the wish or vow to aspire to the Bodhisattva Path, which indeed does take, according to the Chinese Buddhist Canon, more than three asankheya mahakalpas. There were many other sincere students both English-speaking Thais and Caucasian (and John a very inquisitive African-American) who participated in the discussions, and asked some very interesting questions. Thanks to Elle you will have the opportunity to listen to these discussions on tape. The young Shramaneras and myself learned quite a lot. The Shramaneras were also very moved by the way the Thai lay followers show such respect to the Sangha. All in all it was a very fruitful experience for us all. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 329 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 1:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Dear Heng Shun, Thank you very much for your summary of your talks and experiences . I am very happy that you were well received and I am sure your presence (and the samaneras ) was of great benefit to everyone. Once again I want to say how much I admire your interest in learning more about Dhamma, even outside your tradition. But then, as you indicate, the more we study nama and rupa the more we see there is no tradition. There is only what is. I feel that the correspondence with you on this discussion group has already been very useful to me (and others) and I am looking forward to more in the future. Robert --- Heng Shun wrote: > Dear Friends in the Dharma, > > I just wanted to mention a little bit of news > about our experience in > meeting and participating in the discussions with > Ajahn Sujin at Wat > Buudhanasorn in Fremont (close to San Francisco & > closer to San Jose). Five > young novice monks (Shramaneras) accompanied me- > they are 16 to 18 years of > age (all have been novices for six years) and one 22 > year old. We > participated in four discussion periods on three > days. First, I must point > out that Elle was very diligent in tape-recording > everything so that people > will be able to utilize these discussions for study > in the future. I also > must mention that the Bhikshus at the temple were > very hospitable, and > provided splendid accomodations for us when we had > our meals. We felt very > much at home, as all the people in the temple were > quite friendly and > helpful. Also, the temple is quite beautiful- just > like the Wats in > Thailand. It took a couple of sessions for the > Shramaneras to get used to > the Abhidharma Pali terminology- they are somewhat > familiar with the Chinese > terms, so I would sometimes interject to tell them > the Chinese. > > Ajahn Sujin had Jack assist in explaining some > of the most basic ideas, > so that she could utilize her energy and time for > more complicated ideas, or > expand, which she often did, on the basics. Jack did > a very good job in > assisting her. Her English is much, much better than > it was in 1973 and > 1974. I talked to her outside the formal discussion > once, with just a couple > of participants, and explained what our beliefs as > Mahayana Buddhists were, > and on the last day I asked some questions > concerning our beliefs. This is > a brief summary of those exchanges. > > I mentioned that we have the wish and vow to > remain in Samsara for > millions and millions of lifetimes to cultivate the > Bodhisattva Path. She > asked why we would want to continuously experience > the conditioned arising > and falling away of citta, cetasikas, and rupa for > such a long period of > time. Wouldn't it be better to develop prajna/panna > now? She also asked if > we believe if everyone in Samsara can become > enlightened, since I mentioned > that we want to remain in Samsara until all beings > are enlightened. I said > that according to our Sutras in the Chinese Buddhist > Canon, it really does > not clearly state that all beings will definitely > become enlightened, but > that doesn't matter to us, because we still have > that wish. > > I think the most interesting exhange was on > the last day. I asked > Ajahn Sujin to explain the Bodhisattva Path in terms > of the Pali Abhidharma. > She said it really does not matter whether we > refer to the terms > puthujjana, Arahant, or Bodhisattva, because we > still need to see the > characteristics of nama and rupa as they arise and > fall away in the present > moment. I thought that was a very good answer and > an approach that avoids > unnecessary conflicts between the traditions. She > also told me after this > session, that she was suprised to learn of the great > similarities between > the Mahayana and Theravada, as she had never really > looked too deeply into > the Mahayana (particularly our tradition based on > the Chinese Buddhist > Canon). > > I think Jack had a little trouble comprehending > that even though we are > quite aware (painfully aware) that we are merely > common worldlings/ > puthujjanas (just beginners), yet we have the wish > or vow to aspire to the > Bodhisattva Path, which indeed does take, according > to the Chinese Buddhist > Canon, more than three asankheya mahakalpas. > > There were many other sincere students both > English-speaking Thais and > Caucasian (and John a very inquisitive > African-American) who participated in > the discussions, and asked some very interesting > questions. Thanks to Elle > you will have the opportunity to listen to these > discussions on tape. The > young Shramaneras and myself learned quite a lot. > The Shramaneras were also > very moved by the way the Thai lay followers show > such respect to the > Sangha. All in all it was a very fruitful > experience for us all. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, > Heng Shun 330 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Venerable sir, I'm very happy to hear that it all went so well, and especially that you had some useful discussions. I am also very impressed by your wishing to remain in samsara in order that all beings be enlightened before your leaving it. I can only hope there is any possibility there since the number of lives in the universe is said to be incalculably infinite, in fact it is one of the 'imponderables' (acinteyas), to me it doesn't seem possible to wait for all the ants and the planktons in this world alone to reach the level of wisdom necessary. However, your kusala cetana to enlighten people is extremely laudable, and brings us to the ultimate common goal: in order to teach people, you would want to learn as much as you can of what the Buddha taught and reach enlightenment, and all Buddhists students desire the same knowledge, whether they would want to pass it on or not. I hope you can acquire all the wisdom you need to teach everyone, and if we were to meet in some future life, you could teach the dhamma we had heard before which would be new to us then, or be a good reminder of what we already knew. In the meantime we can help one another study and store the teachings to the best of our abilities, and remain kalyana mitta in our quest for the truth, Your friend in the dhamma, Amara 331 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 3, 2000 9:27am Subject: Book fund Dear Group, Last week Sarah mentioned about helping to publish books. I have had a longstanding wish to do more in this regard. I would like to start a fund with this in aim. Possible uses for the funds (please comment): 1. Publish some of Ninas books for free distribution in Sri Lanka (probably print in either Thailand or Sri Lanka). If we raise enough money I may be able to contact a printer in Sri lanka and visit and arrange it all. 2. Sponsor Zolag to publish more books. To start the fund rolling I pledge $US500 as an initial contribution. Robert 332 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund Robert, Anumodana for your dana. Sarah and I had also been talking about sponsoring some publishing. Our idea was to do this through Zolag, as Alan Weller has done so much to get Nina's works edited to a professional standard and onto the shelves of bookshops worldwide, mostly at his own expense. He continues to work on new volumes for publication (eg. Conditions). We also pledge USD500. Jonothan >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund >Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:27:39 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Group, >Last week Sarah mentioned about helping to publish >books. >I have had a longstanding wish to do more in this >regard. >I would like to start a fund with this in aim. >Possible uses for the funds (please comment): >1. Publish some of Ninas books for free distribution >in Sri Lanka (probably print in either Thailand or Sri >Lanka). If we raise enough money I may be able to >contact a printer in Sri lanka and visit and arrange >it all. >2. Sponsor Zolag to publish more books. > >To start the fund rolling I pledge $US500 as an >initial contribution. >Robert 333 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund dear Jonathan , And anumodana to you.! Let's send it to Zolag. Dear Alan, if you are reading this could you tell us what you want us to do with the money? So far US$1000 . I am very happy that conditions is being printed. One book I would love to see published is A survey of paramathha dhammmas by khun Sujin that I think Nina has recently completed or is near to completing. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert, > Anumodana for your dana. Sarah and I had also been > talking about sponsoring > some publishing. Our idea was to do this through > Zolag, as Alan Weller has > done so much to get Nina's works edited to a > professional standard and onto > the shelves of bookshops worldwide, mostly at his > own expense. He continues > to work on new volumes for publication (eg. > Conditions). > We also pledge USD500. > Jonothan > 334 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:39am Subject: Alan driver I am writing a brief biography on Alan driver to go along with some writings of his for the web. can anyone give me details of his life - the more the better! Robet 335 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 8, 2000 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alan driver Lester, maybe you, Myrana & Bron can help out a little here, esp. w/regard to earlier part of his life. Robert, you need to prod Ivan & Jonothan to supply the later part. Actually jonothan gave very nice 'potted biography' at his funeral..I wonder if I still have the tape...will look, but it wasn't planned or scripted, so I think you still need to get lester, Ivan & J. working! Ivan always remembers details v.well! Sarah >I am writing a brief biography on Alan driver to go >along with some writings of his for the web. can >anyone give me details of his life - the more the >better! > >Robet > 336 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 8, 2000 4:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Reality! Dear Friends, a couple of days ago we had lunch w/ a friend of ours who joined discussions when K. Sujin was in Hong Kong and who has been a lurking member of this list for sometime. His qu. for the discussion group is this: Recently it seems that if he wants something, it doesn't happen, but if he doesn't want something, it happens! Does this have any significance? (this was mostly in connection with work or career) I'm sure he would appreciate a wide range of responses from us all! Sarah 337 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun May 7, 2000 9:04pm Subject: Dead friend Dear group, A professor (British) at my university died suddenly and I attended his funeral yesterday. A large man with a Prince Charles accent- I always smiled when I saw him around campus - he is what I imagine an Oxford Don to be. He was a lovely man - an accomplished writer, popular teacher but self-deprecating and full of subtle humour. He was on the commitee that hired me and we have been good friends ever since. What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? It always makes me reflect on Dhamma. He was highly successful and helped many people in a worldly sense and yet his future is completely uncertain. I never discussed Buddhism with him - except that he knew I was Buddhist- I was somewhat in awe of his intellect and felt uncomfortable bringing it up. Yet now I think I should have: even when people do not like to hear Dhamma it sometimes conditions understanding in the future. It is a seed that must be planted for future growth. The same with Buddhists who have a different interpretation of the Dhamma - especially those who think they can control things. It is sometimes tiring to talk with them but by doing so it plants seeds(mainly doubt) that may blossom even in future lives. Robert 338 From: amara chay Date: Mon May 8, 2000 1:18am Subject: temporarily out Dear friends in the dhamma, It seems that I am down with the 'love bug' that destroyed all my picture and sound files, and until my machine is completely cured I will be doing nothing on the web, especially in the DhammaStudy.com, to avoid contaminating anything else. Mail.com says that this e-mail program prevents anyone from transmitting or receiving the virus so I am risking it just this once. If you would like to contact me it would be better to use this address [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=100232113180158135092098186064129241078152] for the moment. 'See' you soon, Amara 339 From: shinlin Date: Tue May 9, 2000 10:29am Subject: Fw: Hello ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Tippayachan To: shinlin ; fongchan nanta ; Rinriver@aol.com Cc: tatarae@earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Hello Dear K. Shin and K. Preeya, It has been a great pleasured meeting everyone in the Dhamma group from Thailand. We enjoyed spending time learning Dhamma and getting to know each and everyone of you very well. IN Lake Tahoe, we lived and eat together like brothers and sisters in the same house. In the morning when we got up we enjoyed seeing how each other look like with their hair stick up and later everyone look beautiful again. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and support us, special thanks to K. Peeya, K. Elle and K. Porntipa for their tireless effort for recording and making tapes for all of us. We look forward to do this again soon. With Metta, Jack and US Dhamma group shinlin wrote: Dear Pi Jack and Pi Oie and everyone in the US, Hello !! I am writing this mail in the name of Pi Yid (K. Preeya). Actually she is right next to me now. She would to take opportunity to thank you all for the warmest and hospitality you all have given when the Thai Dhamma group went to America.Beside the wonderful Dhamma Talk and the food in US, she would not forget to send the questions and Pathana 100 question to you all. K. Rathana will be back from Europe this week. Once she is back, Pi Yid and K.Rathana will prepare all the necessary information for your studies. Last but not least, she would like to ask Pi Jack to take good care of Archan Santi. Pls kindly advise Archan Santi to wear warmer cloths and wear a hat so to prevent the cold in Bay Area. Pls kindly pass the message to Archan Santi, that Pi Yid has called his mother. She is well. Pls do not have to be too worried. If he need to send any information, pls send email to me at shinlin@zebra.co.th and I will pass the message on to his mother. As for me, I would like to send my regards and anumotana to you all for your continuous drive in studying Buddism which is the greatest thing that doesn't come easy to us all. It is a pity that Pi Kwan and I could not be able to join you all this time. Hopefully in the next coming trip to US again, the opportunity will be greater than. Fortunately, both Pi Kwan and I will be seeing you all again, if you all come for the Dhamma trip to Combodia in Decemeber 2000. Anumotana and with metta,Shin Lincc Pi Yid Attachment 10k (image/gif) Formal Announcement Bkgrd.gif 340 From: Alan Weller Date: Tue May 9, 2000 5:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund > dear Jonathan , > And anumodana to you.! Let's send it to Zolag. > > Dear Alan, > if you are reading this could you tell us what you > want us to do with the money? So far US$1000 . > I am very happy that conditions is being printed. One > book I would love to see published is A survey of > paramathha dhammmas by khun Sujin that I think Nina > has recently completed or is near to completing. > > Dear Robert, Many thanks for the offer of money, but I wish to suspend producing more books due to lack of time. Also it is difficult for me to take time off work as I could lose my regular freelance clients. I hope to see Sarah in England next month and we can discuss the posibilities in more detail. Best wishes, Alan 341 From: Alan Weller Date: Tue May 9, 2000 6:17pm Subject: noisy place for insight Dear all, I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok and its here that I've been able to hear Khun Sujin expounding Dhamma. Secondly the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England have various noises on them such as dogs and chickens and sometimes remind me of dhamma when I hear these in my Daily Life. Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna (memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place and in the city or country. We have just published khun Sujins book "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". This has been sponsored by Robert kirkpatrick and details can be found on our web site . There is also an online version of the book on the site. Best wishes, Alan 342 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 11, 2000 6:09pm Subject: Free book for discussion group Alan has just sent me some copies of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I have 8 copies to spare so anyone who wants a copy can email me and I will post them as soon as I have time. Robert 343 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri May 12, 2000 5:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello Dear Shin & Preeya, thanks for sharing news from the discussions in California. We would have liked to be there too. Preeya, it would be interesting to read a summary or a 'list' of discussion topics or anything you found of special interest and value. I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love Bug soon! We need her contributions! Sarah Robert, Alan wrote to tell me that lack of time is the reason of his silence and hesitation to accept donations. It's not so easy now for him to take time off work. I'll chat more to him when i see him in June in U.K. Maybe we should just leave it for a while or you can arrange sth in Bkk if you prefer... > > >Dear K. Shin and K. Preeya, >It has been a great pleasured meeting everyone in the Dhamma group from >Thailand. We enjoyed spending time learning Dhamma and getting to know >each and everyone of you very well. IN Lake Tahoe, we lived and eat >together like brothers and sisters in the same house. In the morning when >we got up we enjoyed seeing how each other look like with their hair stick >up and later everyone look beautiful again. Thank you for sharing your >knowledge and support us, special thanks to K. Peeya, K. Elle and K. >Porntipa for their tireless effort for recording and making tapes for all >of us. We look forward to do this again soon. >With Metta, >Jack and US Dhamma group >shinlin wrote: > > Dear Pi Jack and Pi Oie and everyone in the US, Hello !! I am >writing this mail in the name of Pi Yid (K. Preeya). Actually she is right >next to me now. She would to take opportunity to thank you all for the >warmest and hospitality you all have given when the Thai Dhamma group went >to America.Beside the wonderful Dhamma Talk and the food in US, she would >not forget to send the questions and Pathana 100 question to you all. K. >Rathana will be back from Europe this week. Once she is back, Pi Yid and >K.Rathana will prepare all the necessary information for your studies. >Last but not least, she would like to ask Pi Jack to take good care of >Archan Santi. Pls kindly advise Archan Santi to wear warmer cloths and wear >a hat so to prevent the cold in Bay Area. Pls kindly pass the message to >Archan Santi, that Pi Yid has called his mother. She is well. Pls do not >have to be too worried. If he need to send any information, pls send email >to me at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 and I will pass the message on to his mother. > As for me, I would like to send my regards and anumotana to you all for >your continuous drive in studying Buddism which is the greatest thing that >doesn't come easy to us all. It is a pity that Pi Kwan and I could not be >able to join you all this time. Hopefully in the next coming trip to US >again, the opportunity will be greater than. Fortunately, both Pi Kwan and >I will be seeing you all again, if you all come for the Dhamma trip to >Combodia in Decemeber 2000. Anumotana and with metta,Shin Lincc Pi Yid > > > 344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 11, 2000 10:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books Dear sarah and shin, I would very much like copies of the tapes made at the talks in USA. If you see khun ell could you mention that. we are certainly missing Khun amara - please get well soon! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Shin & Preeya, > > thanks for sharing news from the discussions in > California. We would have > liked to be there too. > > I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love > Bug soon! We need her > contributions! > > Sarah > dear sarah after you talk with alan let us do something. I can certainly arrange something in Bangkok: -perhaps A survey of paramattha dhammas? If the Dhamma study and support foundation agree we could probably print a very large run which I would like to see a part of go to sri lanka. Of course the quality cannot match that of Zolags - I just received the latest beautiful book. It is just a pleasure to touch and look at it (the content is beyond superlatives) Robert > 345 From: shinlin Date: Sat May 13, 2000 6:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books Dear Robert, I will get a copy of the tape for you and send them to Japan for you. What do you think ? Or are you coming around to Bangkok these few weeks. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books > Dear sarah and shin, > I would very much like copies of the tapes made at the > talks in USA. If you see khun ell could you mention > that. > we are certainly missing Khun amara - please get well > soon! > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Shin & Preeya, > > > > thanks for sharing news from the discussions in > > California. We would have > > liked to be there too. > > > I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love > > Bug soon! We need her > > contributions! > > > > Sarah > > dear sarah after you talk with alan let us do > something. I can certainly arrange something in > Bangkok: -perhaps A survey of paramattha dhammas? If > the Dhamma study and support foundation agree we could > probably print a very large run which I would like to > see a part of go to sri lanka. > Of course the quality cannot match that of Zolags - I > just received the latest beautiful book. It is just a > pleasure to touch and look at it (the content is > beyond superlatives) > Robert > > 346 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 17, 2000 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noisy place for insight Dear alan & friends, yes, this made me laugh! The rule is 'No Rules!'....For me, noise is often a condition for aversion,dosa and quiet a condition for attachment,lobha...both the dosa and lobha equally worthy of being objects of awareness, along with the sounds and the many moments of thinking. As I write this I can hear drilling in a nearby flat...different moments, different realities, and what a long story of different concepts the thinking thinks about! I look f/w to reading the new book. Thankyou for yr work in making it happen. regards, Sarah Robert, I think someone said Nina will send us a copy... > >I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to >understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok and >its here that I've been able to hear Khun Sujin expounding Dhamma. Secondly >the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England have various noises on them >such as dogs and chickens and sometimes remind me of dhamma when I hear >these in my Daily Life. >Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna >(memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place >and >in the city or country. >We have just published khun Sujins book "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". This >has been sponsored by Robert kirkpatrick and details can be found on our >web >site . There is also an online version of the book >on the site. > >Best wishes, Alan > > 347 From: ket kay Date: Sun May 21, 2000 7:42pm Subject: Cambodia in December Dear Friends in the Dhamma, Khun Amara would like me to pass a news onto you that the trip to Sri Lanka in December is cancelled. Instead a trip to Cambodia is organized. For furthur information, please contact Khun Duangdeun directly. Or you can ask me and I'll hunt for the answer for you. Kesinee 348 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2000 4:38am Subject: we're visiting Bkk! Dear friends, We'll be in Bkk for dhamma discussions on Sat, Sun 3rd,4th June. We hope to see some of you living in Bkk at the English discussions then....Ivan & Elle will know just where we are and when! If anyone has any qus they wish to have raised, just put a note here. Khun Kesinee, thanks for yr update about K.Sujin's trips. Would you wish Amara a very quick recovery from usd all and say we look f/w to seeing her in Bkk too! Sarah (& Jonothan) 349 From: shinlin Date: Mon May 22, 2000 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] we're visiting Bkk! Dear Sarah and Peter, It is good to hear from you that you are coming for an English dhamma discussion. Pi Joy is still have problems with her computer. But she has asked me to report the Grand opening day of the Foundation. The occassion happened as the following. The remaining of the Lord Buddha was display for public. This remaining parts of the Lord Buddha was given by the Sankara ( the head of the monk monastery) in India to Archan Sujin. So in the morning from 8:00 am to 9:45 am, all the people paid homage to the Lord Buddha, Dhamma, and the Sangha. At 9:45 am, Monks come to recite and paid homage to the 3 jewels. During the time, Archan Sujin moved the remaining of the Lord Buddha to the Altar. At around 10:15 am, Archan Sujin and the people planted the Bayan Tree from Bodhagaya in India, where Lord Buddha was enlightened. So in the Foundation, there is a Bodhi Tree of the Lord Buddha. Then after this, there was a dhamma discussion. This is just a report on the occassion on Visaka Day, May 17,2000, the granding opening of the foundation. As for last Saturday, May 27, 2000, the first time for English dhamma discussion at the Foundation. From 4:00 pm- 6:00pm. The discussion went well. The English discussion will be every other Saturday. with regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:38 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] we're visiting Bkk! > Dear friends, > > We'll be in Bkk for dhamma discussions on Sat, Sun 3rd,4th June. We hope to > see some of you living in Bkk at the English discussions then....Ivan & Elle > will know just where we are and when! If anyone has any qus they wish to > have raised, just put a note here. > > Khun Kesinee, thanks for yr update about K.Sujin's trips. Would you wish > Amara a very quick recovery from usd all and say we look f/w to seeing her > in Bkk too! > > Sarah (& Jonothan) 350 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon May 22, 2000 11:35am Subject: ! Buddha relic Dear Shin Lin, I was realy amazed and pleased to hear that Acharn Sujin recived a relic of The Buddha from India. The accumulations of parami to have such a great thing hapen must be enormous. Robert --- 351 From: shinlin Date: Mon May 22, 2000 1:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ! Buddha relic Dear Robert, I am trying to get the English discussion tape from our dhamma friends. Once I get it I will mail them to you. Let me know which address will be the best address for me to send you. As for the remaining of the Lord Buddha, it was an amazing sight. There were 5 pcs. The color is ivory. I was almost in tears, there was piti ( one of the cestaskia ) that arised and fall away. The feeling was like goose bums all over. I don't know how to describe it. But any way, dhamma was simply doing its job. And now, everything is over already anyway. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] ! Buddha relic > Dear Shin Lin, > I was realy amazed and pleased to hear that Acharn > Sujin recived a relic of The Buddha from India. The > accumulations of parami to have such a great thing > hapen must be enormous. > Robert > --- 352 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 23, 2000 3:23pm Subject: I'm back! Dear friends in the dhamma, I've finally got my machine running properly again, and am happy to say that we've been able to recuperate most of the pictures, in fact over 90% of them! First I would like to thank Ket and Shin for keeping everyone informed, and everyone who sent 'get well wishes', and a little amendment as to the relics' provenance: if I remember correctly, according to Khun Sujin, it was the Thai Supreme Patriarch who sent the relics in full regalia, accompanied by soldiers of the armed forces (if only one from each). The bodhi tree was brought as a seed from India and planted in Thailand, exactly one year ago to the Visakha Day. We are arranging some beautiful pictures taken during the ceremonies for the web, and hope to put them up soon. Today we have added a newsletter (Newsletter 5, newsletter section, sent from the States about present dhamma discussion groups both in Thai and English in CA. Soon we will be uploading the last chapter of 'Summary', as well as an article sent by Robert, written by the then Dhammadaro Bhikku. There ae also new books to be added to our collection, I will be sending more news as we progress, Amara 353 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2000 10:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I'm back! Amara, We're SO GLAD you're back, you've been much missed. Thanks for all the info which I look f/w to checking out. As you've probably heard, we'll be seeing you v.soon in Bkk (Jun2-5) at the English discussions and Jonothan at the Thai as well. Watch out for love bugs in future! best wishes, Sarah > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >I've finally got my machine running properly again, and am happy to say >that >we've been able to recuperate most of the pictures, in fact over 90% of >them! First I would like to thank Ket and Shin for keeping everyone >informed, and everyone who sent 'get well wishes', and a little amendment >as >to the relics' provenance: if I remember correctly, according to Khun >Sujin, it was the Thai Supreme Patriarch who sent the relics in full >regalia, accompanied by soldiers of the armed forces (if only one from >each). The bodhi tree was brought as a seed from India and planted in >Thailand, exactly one year ago to the Visakha Day. > >We are arranging some beautiful pictures taken during the ceremonies for >the >web, and hope to put them up soon. Today we have added a newsletter >(Newsletter 5, newsletter section, sent from >the States about present dhamma discussion groups both in Thai and English >in CA. Soon we will be uploading the last chapter of 'Summary', as well as >an article sent by Robert, written by the then Dhammadaro Bhikku. > >There ae also new books to be added to our collection, I will be sending >more news as we progress, > >Amara 354 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 24, 2000 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I'm back! >We're SO GLAD you're back, you've been much missed. Thanks for all the info >which I look f/w to checking out. > >As you've probably heard, we'll be seeing you v.soon in Bkk (Jun2-5) at the >English discussions and Jonothan at the Thai as well. Sarah, Thanks, I missed everyone too, and am very glad to be seeing you and Jonothan in person soon! And everyone, We have added another newsletter (no.6), about the Cambodian trip (except that we don't have any details yet), and the last chapter of the 'Summary', Chapter 7, Samatha Bhavana to DS in the Newsletter and Advanced sections respectively. From what I heard, several of our Dhamma friends from America will be joining the trip to Cambodia, and as of the day of the opening of the foundation building which was the first day the list was open, there were already over a hundred people signed up. Anyone who wishes to join the group should please contact Khun Duengduen immediately at the foundation address. I will add more details as soon as I receive, them here or in the newsletter, Amara 355 From: amara chay Date: Thu May 25, 2000 6:03pm Subject: The last part of Summary Dear friends in the dhamma, Just a note to inform you that the last part of the Summary, a sort of bibliography, is now added to the advanced section, thus completing the book as it is in Thai. We will be adding the glossary which is being revised, which should be useful for the whole site, but it might take a while, Amara 356 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 29, 2000 10:47am Subject: Nature of sati (mindfulness) I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. A related question is as to the difference between the sati that accompanies every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. 357 From: amara chay Date: Mon May 29, 2000 11:44am Subject: inauguration pictures Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just uploaded some pictures from the inauguration day, am happy to say the two new pages are some of my best work! Do take a look when you have time, newsletter section, . Amara 358 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon May 29, 2000 8:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) dEAR Jon, A great subject. If we don't understand the characteristic of sati and the differenc between the sati that is associated with samattha and vipassana then we are bound to misunderstand the path. My article at http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html gives an introduction. We should go into this topic in as much detail as possible. I hope everyone can contribute. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I was reading a description of the characteristic of > mindfulness (sati) as > being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the > object of > consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to > the development of > mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the > development of > awareness of the reality of the present moment. > > A related question is as to the difference between > the sati that accompanies > every moment of kusala and the sati that is the > development of the path. 359 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: noisy place for insight Hello Alan, << ---- Allan wrote : I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok . . . Secondly the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England . . . Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna (memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place and in the city or country. . . . ------ >> For myself, the noisiest place is my mind.. :-)) If someone can mention some noisy place, my mind can make something noisier.. If I see some picture of some noisy place, my mind can make it worse.. Even when everyone is asleep and the house is quiet, my mind can create a lot of noises, too.. And yet, when Mindfulness is present, my mind does not classify anything as noisy.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 360 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures Thanks for posting the pictures of the inauguration proceedings. They are good shots. i especially like the one of Khun Sujin carrying the relics. It must have been a wonderful event to take part in. Thanks also for your translation of the Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I have downloaded the first part to look at. >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures >Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:44:39 PDT > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >I have just uploaded some pictures from the inauguration day, am happy to >say the two new pages are some of my best work! Do take a look when you >have time, newsletter section, . > >Amara 361 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:38am Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Robert, << --- A professor (British) at my university died suddenly and I attended his funeral yesterday. . . . He was a lovely man - an accomplished writer, popular teacher but self-deprecating and full of subtle humour. He was on the commitee that hired me and we have been good friends ever since. What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? It always makes me reflect on Dhamma. ------ >> Q: What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? A: I accept that the person and everything having any kind of relationships to that him/her are gone forever.. If I recall anything related to him/her, that would be my own imagination, and that would be a proof that I have attachment to him/her.. Each time I catch my own attachment, I increase Mindfulness to understand any Dukkha (either happiness, hurt or numb feelings) residing in me, and my secret wishes or fears, which he/she reminds me of.. My wishes and my fears are my true attachment.. Other than that kind of reflections, each time I recall of the dead person, I wish him/her be reborn in better realms, in better living conditions, in better health, in better happiness, in situations to learn, believe, practice Buddha's Dhamma and to attain Magga/Phala/Nibbana in soon or in an countable number of lifetimes.. << ---- I never discussed Buddhism with him - except that he knew I was Buddhist- I was somewhat in awe of his intellect and felt uncomfortable bringing it up. Yet now I think I should have: even when people do not like to hear Dhamma it sometimes conditions understanding in the future. It is a seed that must be planted for future growth. ------- >> I have introduced Mindfulness (Samadhi and Vipassana) to Christians and people of other religions without mentioning words like Buddha, Dhamma, Sati, Vipassana, etc.. I even stressed that people can hold tight to whatever religion or faith they have had while "trying out" Awareness.. I can't remember all people I talked to, but I vaguely remember that they tried out Mindfulness at different levels with different effort for different length of time.. As you said, << It is a seed that must be planted for future growth..>>, so I was not pushing for immediate results.. During such introduction, I try very hard : (1) to keep Mindfulness going for myself ((ie, watch out for my Ego to take control of the conversation, or to push for my beliefs over others')), (2) to remember that the introduction is for the benefits, thus inner peace, happiness and well-being of the listeners, and (3) to respect their beliefs, their faiths.. (( meaning, if they are willing to listen, I shall speak.. If they don't want to hear, I shall not whisper or hint anything in any way.. Right Speech must be upheld as much as I can, and this is a very tough task for me)) << ---- The same with Buddhists who have a different interpretation of the Dhamma - especially those who think they can control things. It is sometimes tiring to talk with them but by doing so it plants seeds (mainly doubt) that may blossom even in future lives. ------- >> Please be patient, and wait out for the Right time, Right place, Right conditions (their readiness).. I strongly believe that my own effort in keeping Mindfulness as continuous as I can benefits me first, and others later.. I am certain Mindfulness helps keep my character in check from moment to moment.. I am also certain that Mindfulness/Insight has changed my personality.. The new character/personality of "mine" ( of Mindfulness, actually ) is the most affective invitation to Mindfulness.. In the past, people, who were submerged in difficult situations, told me something like : "I want to be peaceful and happy like you.. Tell me how I can be like you.." .. Therefore, I strongly believe that Mindfulness of ourselves is the best way for us to help bring Buddha's Dhamma to "non- believers".. Have you ever thought that Mindfulness of ourselves *IS* Metta to us and others ?? :-)) With metta, Theresa. 362 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: noisy place for insight Dear Theresa, Great to have you joining the discussion. As you say when there is mindfulness then no noise. Just the experience of a reality. Following on from what Alan said about Bangkok: I remember the first few times I met Khun Sujin. Walking along Sukumvit road afterwards and beginning to dissect the world into 6 doors. My outlook on Bangkok and Dhamma changed. The sights and sounds no longer a hindrance, they became food for insight. And then understanding also that thinking, worry, whatever, were also just dhammas - objects for insight. Robert John (Kirkpatrick) --- > For myself, the noisiest place is my mind.. :-)) > > If someone can mention some noisy place, my mind can > make something > noisier.. If I see some picture of some noisy place, > my mind can make > it worse.. Even when everyone is asleep and the > house is quiet, my > mind can create a lot of noises, too.. > > And yet, when Mindfulness is present, my mind does > not classify > anything as noisy.. :-)) > > With metta, > > Theresa. > > > 363 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 5:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) >I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as >being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of >consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of >mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of >awareness of the reality of the present moment. > >A related question is as to the difference between the sati that >accompanies >every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. Jonothan and Theresa, I think the mind is a very powerful reality, as Theresa says, it can store and amplify or minimise the object, string the memories out as infinite thoughts, or, with right understanding, be conscious of or study what is present at the immediate moment and accumulate knowledge about the aramana. It can even be mindful of itself as being certain kinds of citta arising through the mind door, in an endless current. Most of our lives we spend time thinking, there are only short moments experiencing objects through the five sense doors, followed by immediate identification (correct or not) and then concepts take over, endless connotations and events brought up from accumulated memories. In a sense, the object and its true characteristics are forgotten, for most people never studied, only the concepts fill their entire lives. Being mindful of realities as they really are accumulates knowledge about the object of sati's true nature, instead of always being caught up in the current of thoughts and imaginations. The truth is the only way towards the realization of impermanence, attachments and detachments, and the peace that the knowledge brings, level by level. Mindfulness pays full attention (ekaggata cetasika) of that precise citta of sati to the object at that instant, I think. Amara 364 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Re: Nature of sati (mindfulness) Hello Jon and Rob, << ----- Jon wrote : I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. -------- >> Before my initial teacher introduced me to Vipassana, I knew nothing about Buddha's Dhamma, either philosophical or practical.. My teacher taught me about Mindfulness by interrupting me and inserting a short sentence : "Note that,too".. ((My teacher used the term "note" to mean "be mindful")).. During our conversations, he asked me how I would think, feel or do in certain situations, and then I honestly gave him my responses in my layman thinking, which was not religious or saintly, but very human and emotional.. Ex: (I said)"I think that ..."; (he interrupted with)"Note it 'thinking, thinking,..' " Ex: (I said) "I feel that ..."; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'feeling, feeling,..' " Ex: (I said) "I am angry because.."; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'angry, angry,..' " Ex: (I said) "I plan to ... "; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'planning, planning,..' " etc. etc. etc. His interruptions came steadily during our conversation, until I cried out : "Aaaah, anything which crosses my mind, I must make note of it.. But, if I do that, I can't think of anything.." To this he said something like : "With practice, Mindfulness will end each thought as soon as it arises.." When I can keep Mindfulness continuous regardless what I think or do, I find myself having nothing to say, nothing to think about, but I know clearly how my mind switches from thought to thought, or from consciousness to consciousness.. That's how I aware <> with Mindfulness.. << ----- Rob wrote : ...If we don't understand the characteristic of sati and the differenc between the sati that is associated with samattha and vipassana then we are bound to misunderstand the path. My article at http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html gives an introduction. We should go into this topic in as much detail as possible. I hope everyone can contribute. -------- >> Your article is well-written, informative, and useful.. I have few inputs to what you wrote in your article.. R: Buddha certainly recommended mindfulness in daily life. T: For meditators who want to reach for higher goal, this is a must.. Besides Sitting and Walking Meditation, I try to practice General Meditation throughout the day.. At this time, when I sleep, I am totally out; I need to work more on Mindfulness.. hehehe.. R: We may try to stop attachment ... Refined, hidden desires but dangerous because they obstruct understanding. Craving is like a great magician that has many different marvelous tricks that all obscure reality. T: So far, I find that when my mind lingers on certain topics, I have attachment because of either Lobha, Dosa or Moha.. LINGERING means that our mind is stuck with a topic and Mindfulness does not end its current thought immediately; ie, we don't see our mind switches over from one thought to the next one.. REMEMBERING something relating from certain past is not LINGERING, but it is a sankhara of the current moment.. As long as, Mindfulness ends the current sankhara (a memory, a recollection, a thought) immediately, there is no attachment, no Lobha, no Dosa, no Moha.. R: It may seem that we can control awareness but realities, including sati, only last for the briefest moment, they cant really be controlled. We aren't aware of the subtle lobha (unwholesome attachment) that is actually performing the action of "controlling". T: Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Mindfulness is the only way to stop "controlling", restlessness, or any hindrances.. We simply choose one aspect of the reality, pull all of our attention toward it, makes it the "object of mindfulness", and keeps Mindfulness going.. One aspect of the reality can be things like the beginnings, and the endings (of consciousness), or the endings (of consciousness), or the changes of sensations (vedana), or the changes of rupas (we pick one of the 4 rupas), or the changes/formations of the current Dukkha (ex, pain, rambling thoughts, sadness, happiness, comfortable feelings, etc.), or the current sankhara (we can acknowledge it as comfortable or uncomfortable feelings), etc. etc.. The main idea for picking one aspect of the current reality and follows it with Mindfulness is that we will soon gain Concentration and Insight, which relates to Impermanence (and also the other 2 Lakkhanas).. When we experience Lakkhanas, Mindfulness destroys hindrances in the current moment of Mindfulness.. R: Do you agree that it is important if one is serious about developing vipassana that we must avoid certain sense objects such as violent movies? T: We should avoid any sense objects which are conditions for more sankharas.. On one extreme, we must be careful about watching violent movies.. On the other extreme, if meeting our meditation teacher brings attachment, we should increase Mindfulness during the meeting and each time we long for more meeting, more support, more dhamma talk.. This longing is not the reality of the present moment, if we are mindful of it; when we are mindful of it, it's not attachment.. :- )) R: ... clinging to rules and rituals ... T: We can see our clinging, if we keep Mindfulness continuous.. So far, it seems that Rules and Rituals are Sanna to me.. For now, the only way for me to identify my clinging to rules and rituals is by seeing Dukkha related to them.. I can't think of a good example, and so, I'm going to use something I am hoping to achieve.. Ex: I believe that I am a dutiful, loving, caring wife and so, my husband appreciates me; this is an expectation based on the rules/rituals of marriage which I have learned from the society and accepted as truths, as part of my knowledge (my ego).. When I am happy ((this is Dukkha, because Mindfulness shows me that this happiness is directly linked to a fear of sadness)), I indirectly see that I am attached to my expection in the concept of marriage and love.. When I am sad ((this Dukkha is easier to identify, and it is linked with a wish for happy feelings)), I indirectly see that I am attached to my expection in the concept of marriage and love.. Sanna !! With metta, Theresa. 365 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 1:03pm Subject: Hello.. :-)) Hello, My name is Theresa.. I'm glad Robert introduced me to this group, and I just join earlier today.. :-)) I have practiced Vipassana since November of 1995.. My practice includes General, Sitting and Walking meditation.. My initial teacher gave me the tummy as my initial point of focus, and my mind tends to fall there if nothing special comes to my mind.. English is my second language.. My Buddhist terminology, in both English and my mother tongue, is poor.. I read Dhamma books slowly, because I am a slow reader.. I digest reading materials slower than what I learn by hearing.. I have not read most suttas, commentaries and books, and know that I should.. :-)) I ask for the help from dhamma friends on this list when I misuse terms and/or misunderstand Dhamma or Buddhist concepts.. Thank you ahead of time.. :-)) Most of what I write bases mostly on my own practice and experience.. My knowledge of Dhamma continues to change as I walk further on the Noble Path.. Therefore, what I write can be wrong and needs someone to point it out to benefit me and others.. I share what I know, but my knowledge is not the ultimate truth.. :-)) I look forward to read your messages posted on the Dhammastudy list.. Theresa. 366 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 7:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures They are >good shots. i especially like the one of Khun Sujin carrying the relics. Jonothan, It was taken by Khun Chutiman, in fact most were, except for a few by Khun Prapan- I still haven't been able to contact them for the English rendition of their names so I haven't added the credits yet! Aren't they great. We may be adding a few more when we upload the book presented at the inauguration. We are also preparing the article Robert sent, thanks again, Robert. Glad you liked the pages, Amara 367 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 8:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello.. :-)) Hello Theresa, and welcome! As a fellow member of the discussion group, I am very glad you joined, and look forward to reading more of your interesting and amusing comments. I am also responsible for , which has some rather rare writings by Sujin Boriharnwanaket on both samatha and vipassana, which you might find interesting: in the advanced section, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Parts 7 + 8 respectively, although Part 9, 'Guidelines' talks about both. In fact for a clear understanding of the dhamma, the whole (massive) book will be useful, I hope you get around to that someday! Amara 368 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello.. :-)) Dear Teresa, I'm also happy to see you on the list and to hear your comments and experiences. You're very welcome...please continue with your contributions and don't worry if the English or Buddhist terminology have mistakes...nothing needs to be perfect here! I'm curious to know where you're from and where you're living..? We all need pointers and guidance and discussion. That's why we're here. I'm sure you'll find it very useful, even if you don't always agree with other comments! Best wishes, Sarah >Hello, > >My name is Theresa.. I'm glad Robert introduced me to this group, and >I just join earlier today.. :-)) > >I have practiced Vipassana since November of 1995.. My practice >includes General, Sitting and Walking meditation.. My initial teacher >gave me the tummy as my initial point of focus, and my mind tends to >fall there if nothing special comes to my mind.. > >English is my second language.. My Buddhist terminology, in both >English and my mother tongue, is poor.. I read Dhamma books slowly, >because I am a slow reader.. I digest reading materials slower than >what I learn by hearing.. I have not read most suttas, commentaries >and books, and know that I should.. :-)) I ask for the help from >dhamma friends on this list when I misuse terms and/or misunderstand >Dhamma or Buddhist concepts.. Thank you ahead of time.. :-)) > >Most of what I write bases mostly on my own practice and experience.. >My knowledge of Dhamma continues to change as I walk further on the >Noble Path.. Therefore, what I write can be wrong and needs someone >to point it out to benefit me and others.. I share what I know, but >my knowledge is not the ultimate truth.. :-)) > >I look forward to read your messages posted on the Dhammastudy list.. > >Theresa. > 369 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) >I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as >being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of >consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of >mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of >awareness of the reality of the present moment. Jonothan, These are good points for discussion. At the moment of mindfulness, there is no 'forgetting'...the minfulness or sati that accompanies the moment of consciousness, citta, doesn't forget or be 'not minful' at that moment. What is it mindful of? The object of consciousness, i.e. the reality of the present moment. For example, whether or not there is any mindfulness, seeing experiences a visible object at his moment, usually with no understanding or mindfulness. When there is understanding and mindfulness, the seeing and the visible object don't change, but there is knowing and awareness of the object for a moment. > >A related question is as to the difference between the sati that >accompanies >every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. > Different levels of sati ar accompanied by different 'kinds' of understanding. For example, at each moment of giving or intending to give there is a level of sati at the level of giving. It's good and should be developed by anyone regardless of religion. However, there is not necessarily and understanding of non-self...most people, even most Buddhists give with the idea of 'me' giving. By sati that is development of the path is meant sati accompanied by right understanding that knows and is aware of a reality, in other words the development of satipatthana. Sarah 370 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 0:04am Subject: Re: Hello.. :-)) Hello Sarah, >... I'm curious to know where > you're from and where you're living..? I live in "Sunny California", U.S.. Please allow me to refrain from sharing with you where I'm from originally.. Let see if you can guess it out from reading my posts.. hehehe.. I know I am not good at hiding information.. :-)) > We all need pointers and guidance and discussion. That's why we're > here. I'm sure you'll find it very useful, even if you don't always > agree with other comments! I agree.. :-)) Comments of all three flavors (Dosa, Lobha or Moha), are great pointers to meditators, so I believe.. hehehe.. Theresa. 371 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 8:47am Subject: Re: abhidhamma in daily life Hello Robert, You do write very well.. :-)) It's something I must work on.. hehehe.. << ---- Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self ... No "mind" to make calm. We see that every moment is just like any other moment. There are feeling, perception, mental formations, and material phenomena. ... The perception of "pure clarity" is just perception, the perception of this moment, just perception. The most refined sensations in the body are just sensations in the body. ------- >> Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! I'm glad you have found your inner peace and inner happiness in the moment of Mindfulness, from moment to moment.. :-)) << ---- ... "this path is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise": Middle length sayings Sutta 95 Canki. ------- >> I have this thought to share, but I hope no one will scream out of disagreement.. hehehe.. Here it is : << I have never been curious about Nibbana.. What is it ?? What does it have or not have ?? How to get it ?? How to get it ASAP ?? How does it feel like ?? Is it like the "super-Jhana" (sorry for using my own layman term again) ?? etc.. I try to practice the four foundations of MIndfulness as much as I can, not for Nibbana, but for the End of Suffering.. Suffering, for me, is the changes ( for crying out loud, the UNCONTROLLABLE CHANGES !!).. The uncontrollable and unbearable changes lead me to Vipassana and keep me practicing.. I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own personalities.. Arahantship sounds great; the ultimate freedom from all life suffering sounds great; better births in better realms sound great; yet I am concerned about realizing the inner peace and the inner happiness in each thought, each feeling, each sensation, each moment of living.. Momentary living with Mindfulness is the strongest reason for me to practice and continue to practice Vipassana.. Nibbana, whatever it is, is a bonus.. :-)) Because my dream to live fully from moment to moment is very simple, the "Middle Path" seems to be closer to my reach, right in the moment of Mindfulness.. :-)) >> << ---- We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. ------- >> <> are absolutely important.. For Mindfulness to be filled with Insight and Concentration, we must be cautious and modest, like a dying person breathing his/her last breath with all caution, respect, etc. because death is next.. :-)) I find myself having less Right Effort, whenever I think that I still have many days and weeks and years to go, to practice, to try to reach for the End of Suffering.. However, when I am mindful of the current moment as if "this" mindful moment is my last chance, the Noble Path is much clearer and easier to reach out for, because the mind expects nothing after "this" mindful moment.. This kind of reminder works great for me, and it helps bring in all the Right mental qualities "in a snap".. A snap is an exaggeration on my part..hehehe.. Actually, the time to get all Right mental qualities reduces with practice.. At this time, it seems that my General Meditation results (term?) are closing the gap with the results (term?) gained during Sitting Meditation.. << ---- I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. ------- >> Robert, I find that, for myself, *IF* I don't expect anything from this life or future lives, but, instead, *IF* I expect myself to live fully within this very moment and to exert effort for the quality of one current-moment Mindfulness and for the clearer-clearer-and-yet-clearer view of the transition from the very end of this current-moment Mindfulness to the very beginning of the next moment, then, I can "see" Dhamma(s) better.. :-)) Like you, I am at the investigating stage, a learning stage.. Actually, this learning/investigating stage will last until the attainment of Arahantship.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 372 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:40am Subject: 'New' article Dear friend in the dhamma, Just a note to tell you that has added Bhikku Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an article titled 'Be Here Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find any mistakes, Amara 373 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article Dear Amara, Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra Dhammadharo on web. I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have some intersting stories about him , for example how did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently sent me some details of his life which I will use, but the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or anything else? Robert --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friend in the dhamma, > > Just a note to tell you that > has added Bhikku > Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an > article titled 'Be Here > Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find > any mistakes, > > Amara > > 374 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 2:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma in daily life Dear Theresa, Your writing is fine. The main reason I invited you to join the group was because you are sincerely trying to understand Dhamma. But also your writing is very honest and straightforward - you show yourself as you really are - I like it. Thanks for looking over the archives and making comments. It gives us something solid to discuss, so please keep it up when you have time. Sometimes I get a bit busy so can't always give your replies the detailed comments they deserve. But I do read and appreciate all of them. .. I try to practice the > four foundations of > MIndfulness as much as I can, not for Nibbana, but > for the End of > Suffering.. It is good that you are not longing for nibbana . This is just another desire, samudaya sacca (cause of suffering) and merely perpetuates samsara. Many people these days want nibbana ( and some think they have experienced it)but they don't know what it is. Until one deeply understands citta, cetasika and rupa how could one understand what the ceasing of citta, cetasika and rupa is? Do you feel more stable on a plane or on the ground? This earth is revolving around the sun at thousands of miles an hour and the whole galaxy is moving in some direction at vast speed. The planet is like a speck of dust in the vastness of space. But the actual state of things is far more radically unstable than that. Now there are conditions for rupas (matter) to keep arising but if those conditions ceased then this earth, the solar sysytem and the entire universe would immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change. Nibbana is the only refuge because at parinibbana no more rupa no more nama(mental phenomenon). Suffering, for me, is the changes ( for > crying out loud, > the UNCONTROLLABLE CHANGES !!).. The uncontrollable > and unbearable > changes lead me to Vipassana and keep me > practicing.. In the Samyutta Nikaya *(Gradual Sayings, Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) the Buddha said: ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are.... They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. The Buddha then said that for the enlightened one the opposite is true. The enlighted ones are happy BECAUSE everything is impermanent. They are happy because nothing is taken for self. They delight in anicca, dukkha, and anatta whereas the normal person, not seeing these fundamental truths, tries to resist them. We are not enlightened, thus we still resist. For me when I see this process, of wanting things to be different, it is warning signal, a flashing light. A reminder that at these moments there is no understanding, no awareness, and a reminder that there is still much to be done. In some ways these moments are less of a problem (on the path) because they come with unpleasant feeling - they are obvious. It is the subtle pleasant feelings that one can get tricked by - we can be led by them and think that we are practising correctly when we are just chasing feeling. " I am concerned about realizing the inner > peace and the > inner happiness in each thought, each feeling, each > sensation, each > moment of living.. Momentary living with Mindfulness > is the strongest > reason for me to practice and continue to practice > Vipassana.. > Nibbana, whatever it is, is a bonus.. :-)) Because > my dream to live > fully from moment to moment is very simple, the > "Middle Path" seems > to be closer to my reach, right in the moment of > Mindfulness.. :-))" > "I find myself > having less Right Effort, whenever I think that I > still have many > days and weeks and years to go, to practice, to try > to reach for the > End of Suffering.. However, when I am mindful of the > current moment > as if "this" mindful moment is my last chance, the > Noble Path is much > clearer and easier to reach out for, because the > mind expects nothing > after "this" mindful moment.. This kind of reminder > works great for > me, and it helps bring in all the Right mental > qualities "in a > snap".. A snap is an exaggeration on my > part..hehehe.. Actually, the > time to get all Right mental qualities reduces with > practice.. At > this time, it seems that my General Meditation > results (term?) are > closing the gap with the results (term?) gained > during Sitting > Meditation.. " I am glad you see that it is this moment that should be understood, and please keep on until you see that there is actually no difference between a moment of sati when doing sitting meditation and during everday life. And it is great that you realize that effort can be right or wrong. I used to try to have sati, to make effort, to try to be calm, to experience this and that. I now think this is not the way. It is all too easy to mistake subtle desire for sati. Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. The right effort of the eightfold path is not easy to know. Now your words make me consider the Dhamma. I can't help it: effort is there, but with no desire to have it, it arises because there are the right conditions. Understanding comes gradually. It seeps in, slowly,slowly:and if one is on the right path it sooner or later saturates to the bone. It comes not because "we" make it happen but by the Buddha's words which are the condition for contemplation and right awareness. Thus your words about not expecting any results are very important. Robert > 375 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 2:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend > > Have you ever thought that Mindfulness of ourselves > *IS* Metta to us > and others ?? :-)) > Dear Theresa, Thanks for all the comments about helping others. I agree, mindfulness is the way to have more metta. Robert 376 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article >Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , for example how >did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently >sent me some details of his life which I will use, but >the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some >details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or >anything else? >Robert Robert, I will ask Khun Sujin about it, but I think Jonothan was closer to him than anyone else, if I remember correctly. Could Nina help, because she has such a good memory? She was here when he met Khun Sujin, I think. I myself spent a long period away from Thailand during the time he was here. Really a brilliant mind! Amara 377 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article dear Robert, We'll try to make some notes this w'end while we're in Bkk and send to you on return. Yes jonothan supported him all the years he was a monk and we both took him on trips to India and Sri lanka. We also spent a time with him after he disrobed in Bkk & Oz. We're v.rough on dates, so if you would send any dates you alr. have info on, then it's easier for us to fill in other parts. He had excellent understanding of the Dhamma and wonerful oratory skills and yet life was not at all easy for him because of his accumulations! Ivan & Nina can both add a lot too and also Vince in Oz. Ivan would certainly know much more than anyone about the last part of his life in Bkk. I'm glad you got onto Bron...I sent her an invite to the list but she didn't join. Maybe you & Lester can encourage her! She'd make some good contributions! Sarah > >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , for example how >did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently >sent me some details of his life which I will use, but >the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some >details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or >anything else? >Robert >--- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friend in the dhamma, > > > > Just a note to tell you that > > has added Bhikku > > Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an > > article titled 'Be Here > > Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find > > any mistakes, > > > > Amara > > 378 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma in daily life Theresa, It's great to get all your long messages. There are many areas to discuss further, but I'm pretty busy with work at the moment. However, after mentioning about our friend who passed away who had a lot of understanding of the dhamma and also a 'difficult personality' conventionally speaking, I was reminded of your comment below. You mention you are interested to free yourself from suffereing and to improve your personality. We all wish this many times a day, especially when we're having a tough time or when there is dosa (aversion) arising to a smaller or larger degree. But isn't this just our wishful thinking and craving not to have any unpleasantness in our life? Aren't we trying to change or control our personality with the idea of a self that can change it? Doesn't it show a lack of upekkha (equanimity) when we mind what the reality is at this moment and want it to be different? Isn't it better to accept the 'personality' at this moment and let the awareness be aware of the aversion or whatever other characteristic is appearing, instead of trying to change it? Best wishes and looking forward to more of your messages, Sarah - I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to >free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own >personalities.. 379 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article Dear Robert, after writing my other notes, I quit the list, had my bath, got ready for bed but the thinking and sanna were still running on with stories about Alan D,/Phra Dhammadharo. In particular, I was remembering how he once told me his favourite sutta was the story about a lay person in the time of the Buddha. The Buddha said he had started off with the accumulations and ability to bcome an arahat. However, he started drinking and the drinking led to the breaking of the other precepts and in the end he didn't have the ability or wisdom to attain any level of enlightenment. Alan/Phra D. said he found it such a useful reminder to not sqander our opportunities to hear and understand and develop more wisdom... Perhaps someone can locate and quote the full sutta which I've very crudely paraphrased (maybe incorrectly?). Who else has a 'favourite' or particularly meaningful sutta to quote or summarise? Sarah >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , 380 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another New book and FREE Dear group, I just received some copies of the newly printed Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I can send this and also Taking refuge in Buddhism to anyone who wants a copy: please let me know. Realities and Concepts has been published for free distribution and when I go to Bangkok in september I will bring back a few hundred copies. We can then promote over the web and I will send them off. I was thinking that if someone like Jack in california could handle distribution in America, and we can find someone in Europe to handle around there, I could cover the rest of the world. It is only a small book so the postage is reasonable - especially by seamail. I will also send copies to temples in Sri lanka. I look forward to some more info. on Phra Dhammadhara later Sarah- Thanks. And if you can find out more about the Cambodia trip? I wish I could join you this weekend . Best wishes Robert --- 381 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend Theresa, Welcome to the list, and thanks for your stimulating contributions. >Q: What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? >A: I accept that the person and everything having any kind of >relationships to that him/her are gone forever.. If I recall anything >related to him/her, that would be my own imagination, and that would >be a proof that I have attachment to him/her.. Each time I catch my >own attachment, I increase Mindfulness to understand any Dukkha >(either happiness, hurt or numb feelings) residing in me, and my >secret wishes or fears, which he/she reminds me of.. I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother (Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly. Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for reflection about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off the study of the present reality. Jonothan 382 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:20pm Subject: My personality?! (was: re:abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Sarah, I'm glad you brought up a subtle but very important point.. M Y P E R S O N A L I T Y :-)) << ---- T: ...I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own personalities.. S: But isn't this just our wishful thinking and craving not to have any unpleasantness in our life? Aren't we trying to change or control our personality with the idea of a self that can change it? Doesn't it show a lack of upekkha (equanimity) when we mind what the reality is at this moment and want it to be different? Isn't it better to accept the 'personality' at this moment and let the awareness be aware of the aversion or whatever other characteristic is appearing, instead of trying to change it? ------- >> Have you noticed that I wrote "personalitIES" (plural form) ?? You wrote "personalitY" (singular form), as it should for grammatical correction.. Q: Is "wishing" for a "better personality" Craving (greed for something better) or rejection (dosa against the current personality)? A: Yes and No.. :-)) Yes, wishing for "another" personality, regardless better or worse, than the current personality *is* either Craving or Rejection, IF AND ONLY IF MIndfulness is NOT present in the moment of thinking so.. Without Mindfulness, there is no Concontration and no Insight.. Without Insight, we see a "Self" with "a" molded personality, and thus there is a "wish" for changes.. No, wishing for "another" personality is neither Craving or Rejection, IF AND ONLY IF we are mindful in the current moment.. With Mindfulness, we see a temporary Greed/Aversion in the current moment and I call that momentary existence "personality".. ((One personality (?) exists in one moment; therefore, there are many "personalities" for many moments..)) "Personality" is a term referring to something lasting, and thus there must be a "self" for it.. If in a day, I have seen myself having many Greed/Aversion, thanks to Mindfulness weaving in and out.. I name the self-for-a-day a "personality".. Without Mindfulness, there is "Self" and no saint anywhere in me; and that's the fact; so, "I have a personality" is a fact that I should know about with Mindfulness, but didn't.. Whenever I suddenly wake up to my "self" and "my personality", "I" wish for a "better personality".. hehehe.. That means, this wish is my own remind to get back to the task of Mindfulness.. :-)) The "personality", I wish (?) for, is not another different personality, but more of a "realization of changes in the mood".. I'm not good with words, and I am playing with them now.. hehehe.. In short, I have slowly learned not to accept any personality as "mine", and have been working on having nothing called "my personality".. Lacking of words to express myself, I sloppily said in my previous post that I wanted to "improve my own personalitIES" (plural).. :-)) In my normal speech, I notice that I have used similar statement like this one : "You should know it's *my* PERSONALITY.. That's how I do things.. So, you should know what to avoid, and we should work on making things work out best for both of us.." hahaha.. That's only an excuse so I can win my way!! hahaha.. For as long as I insist that I have "a" personality, I have a lot of room to learn and grow spiritually.. Since I realize that "my personality" is the core problem to many issues, I have been paying a lot of attention on catching myself asking for justice in the name of "my personality".. "My personality" is an aspect of my "Ego".. Because of "my personality", I have Lobha, Dosa and Moha.. When Mindfulness and Insight are available, there are changes in thoughts/emotions at a very high rate, and so, there is nothing stable long enough to be called "my personality".. Yet, it is a good idea to keep our eyes open for it.. "My personality" is useful to meditators as an encouragement.. We can use it to measure how well we have been behaving generally.. With that measurement, we know when to give us a pat in the back, and when to encourage ourselves to be more mindful.. "My personality" can remind us to keep up the Mindfulness task and pay more attention to the manifestation of "Self" shown innocently as "personality".. :-)) Let us be mindful of our body and mind.. Let us turn our attention inward.. Let us live each moment fully.. With metta, Theresa. 383 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another New book and FREE >Realities and Concepts has been published for free >distribution and when I go to Bangkok in september I >will bring back a few hundred copies. We can then >promote over the web and I will send them off. I was >thinking that if someone like Jack in california could >handle distribution in America, Robert, did you know that Jack and some of his group are coming to Thailand in December (as well as joining the trip to Cambodia)? Also, do you have his address? He just sent me some of the nicest e-mails, so just in case you don't, it's . Anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 384 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:14am Subject: about Right Effort (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Robert, << ---- Thanks for looking over the archives and making comments. It gives us something solid to discuss, so please keep it up when you have time. ------- >> Time is the only thing I have now.. My misfortune is your luck... hehehe.. I have been buried in misfortune for the last 12 years.. If Mindfulness is not around, my mind is a goner, too.. hehehe.. My life is about to close another chapter (a divorce), and I can't even find a job to claim my independence.. I have tried to return to my old career as a programming, after 9 years being away from it; I have no luck yet.. I will have to take computer classes and will see from there.. By the way, please don't feel sorry for me about the divorce.. It's a blessing in disguise.. I now have a much lighter load and live peacefully and happily each day, having not much to gain or loose.. By the way, the divorce gives me a long (2- year) "meditation retreat" right in the difficult situation of a layperson.. It has been my chance to practice Mindfulness on Citta and Cetasikas; my Mindfulness ability improves, thanks to a lot of sankharas.. I have had chances to look back at what I did.. I found out for myself that staying single is a blessing, and maybe I will choose to be single for the rest of my life.. (( I write "maybe" because I can't manipulate Kamma.. hahaha )) << ----- Many people these days want nibbana ( and some think they have experienced it)but they don't know what it is. Until one deeply understands citta, cetasika and rupa how could one understand what the ceasing of citta, cetasika and rupa is? -------- >> There is nothing to express about Nibbana, because Ariyas experience it in the state of "no-body-and-no-mind".. Such quietness!! Such claimless!! Nothing to say!! It's not even wonderful like Jhana, but it's a feeling at the moment of letting-go of everything.. WHEN we least expect, WHERE we least expect, Nibbana is.. When and where ?? Right here, right now, in the current moment, in the current Sankhara.. hehehe.. I fully agree with you, that we must understand Citta, Cetasika and Rupa extremely well.. We must see the Endings of them, right at the moment of their dissipation, not sooner, not later, right on time.. That's where we might catch a glimpse of Nibbana.. If we don't understand "our" basic make-ups (the 5 aggregates), we won't be able to recognize Nibbana even when it is everywhere in us.. :-)) Robert, may I ask if your mind would automatically go back to Mindfulness on its own as soon as you stop moving around or stop thinking ?? I hope it does.. If it does, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!.. :-)) << ----- ...immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change. Nibbana is the only refuge because at parinibbana no more rupa no more nama(mental phenomenon). -------- >> <<...immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change.>> It's your own experience, isn't it ??.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!.. What you described is probably the level of Insight, which fears (?) and disgust (?) the body and the mind.. A little further on, you will experience the level of Insight, which rejects (?) the body and the mind.. These are necessary Insight steps we must take to arrive at the Upekkha Insight Level.. These are progressive Insight levels.. (( A NOTE for Robert and other members of the list who are practicing at these progressive levels of Insight.. I encourage you to put your head down and to nail the task of Mindfulness, one by one, steady and firm, catching the end of one event as clearly as possible, grabbing the beginning of a new event with precision, leaving no room between events no matter how fine events become.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! .. Please do not look forward or wish for anything.. The best way to balance our mind and to bring Upekkha coming, matured and steady, is to keep Mindfulness constant, steady, continuous, careful, respectful.. If you need a boost, a week of intense retreat should help.. )) Nibbana is not a refuge.. Nibbana is an understanding, which is not based on body nor mind.. The mature state of Upekkha is a pre- requesite for Nibbana, but Nibbana has no Upekkha.. We practice the seven factors of enlightenment, one by one (Upekkha is one of the factors), and we must combine all factors in equal amount among themselves in order to reach the necessary mental quality "for" Nibbana.. The seven factors (thus, the Noble Path) are the cause, and Nibbana is the result; yet, Nibbana doesn't have seven factors, because the Nibbana experience does not rely on body or mind.. << ----- In the Samyutta Nikaya *(Gradual Sayings, Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) the Buddha said: ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are.... They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. The Buddha then said that for the enlightened one the opposite is true. The enlighted ones are happy BECAUSE everything is impermanent. They are happy because nothing is taken for self. They delight in anicca, dukkha, and anatta whereas the normal person, not seeing these fundamental truths, tries to resist them. -------- >> Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Impermanence is Dukkha for the yet-to-be-enlightened individuals.. Impermanence is a blessing for the enlightened Ariyas.. The knowledge ( the experience ) without judgment is the different views between Ariyas and the yet-to-be-enlightened individuals.. << ----- We are not enlightened, thus we still resist. For me when I see this process, of wanting things to be different, it is warning signal, a flashing light. A reminder that at these moments there is no understanding, no awareness, and a reminder that there is still much to be done. In some ways these moments are less of a problem (on the path) because they come with unpleasant feeling - they are obvious. It is the subtle pleasant feelings that one can get tricked by - we can be led by them and think that we are practising correctly when we are just chasing feeling. -------- >> <>!! Great reminder!! I, too, must use the subtle pleasant/unpleasant feelings to help me see my attachments right when they appear.. << ----- And it is great that you realize that effort can be right or wrong. . . . It is all too easy to mistake subtle desire for sati. Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. The right effort of the eightfold path is not easy to know. Now your words make me consider the Dhamma. I can't help it: effort is there, but with no desire to have it, it arises because there are the right conditions. -------- >> R: Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. T: Sati *is* the way to detach.. Please try to perfect the task of Mindfulness.. I hope the above NOTE help stress some good characteristics of a useful Mindfulness.. Trying to SIMPLY KNOW the reality in the current moment is Right Effort.. :-)) Contemplate and know, from moment to moment; that's Right Effort.. Trying to get rid of what we have in the current moment is NOT Right Effort, but it is Dosa.. Trying (wishing) for something which we don't have in the current moment is NOT Right Effort, but it is Lobha.. With metta, Theresa. 385 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:31am Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Jonothan, << ----- The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly. -------- >> It gets better with practice.. I mentally assume my death, the extreme and slow pain which is painful enough to kill a strong/healthy body, the decay of my body, the disappearance of so- called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember those Truths, the more I can just live, and the more I can accept loosing anything and anyone I have.. After 100 years from right now, where are we, even the newborn being born today ??.. Thinking like that helps me detach in the current moment.. If I have dead a long time ago, how do "I" want my two sons to be and to have in the next 50-70-80 years ??.. They are 11 and 16 years old.. I believe that I can help them by encouraging them to look at the world with Mindfulness.. I teach them Mindfulness, Cause/Effect, etc. in layman terms, with a hope that these concepts are the seeds of Dhamma in them.. When the right conditions and right time come, these seeds will grow, so I believe.. I remind them : "Remember, the inner peace and happiness of others and yours are the most important thing.." and I pray.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 386 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:00am Subject: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Mike, Your message was wonderful.. I would like to add some comments.. << ----- Quiet places can be ideal ... because they support a calming of the mind... ...the direct experience of realities through skillful means, even in the midst of a busy life, CAN lead to awakening if one has the proper accumulations to support it, the role of meditation in developing Right Concentration as a necessary path factor cannot be minimized. -------- >> Practicing and "achieving" exactly as you said will make us believers of Buddha's Dhamma.. :-)) By practice, I know two types of Concentration : (1) the "big" Concentration applied in Samadhi .. Let's refer to it as "Big-C" in this message.. (2) the "small" Concentration used in Vipassana .. I have heard other terms like "Momentary Concentration" or "Near Concentration".. Let's refer to it as the "small-C" in this message.. I am never sure of the terms, but I just know how to ease my mind toward Concentration and how to apply it.. Concentration is very important in the three steps : Morality - Concentration - Insight.. In my own practice, I notice that the strong the Big-C gained from the Samadhi practice helps me gain easier and faster the small-C during Vipassana practice, and thus, I can keep Vipassana Mindfulness going continuously for a longer period of time.. Yet, I can use the small-C alone to strengthen the small-C without the need to switch over to practicing Samadhi for more big-C.. You referred to "awakening".. I guess you stress the development of Insight.. For me, the small-C is directly linked to and helps develop Insight.. If we have the small-C steady, we can keep Mindfulness going and developing Insight in any situation. ((..While living.. During our normal life.. Even in stressful situations.. When our mind screams for help, wants to give up everything and quit..)) For me, the big-C, which is useful to help gain and keep the small-C during Vipassana/Insight, does not contribute directly to the development and growth of Insight.. For instance, I entered Jhana (or whatever that wonderful state is).. I can choose to expand it to cover the universe or infinity (or whatever that is).. I can choose to expand my consciousness to cover the universe or infinity.. I can also choose to shut all and dark all, and that's all to it.. These choices give me whatever concepts I choose to have, and so, it seems to me that they are "permanent" until I quit Jhana.. However, at this time, if I were to step back a little by reducing the big-C to a small-C while keeping the Jhana state, then I gain Insight very quickly, and the Jhana state becomes the object of Mindfulness, and Insight dissects it as if Insight would dissect the five aggregates in the pure Vipassana practice.. When Insight dissects the Jhana state, I can changes/Impermanence of the mind and body in order to produce Jhana, and also, Dukkha and Anatta.. For instance, I practice Vipassana in General Practice.. Eating, sitting, typing, walking, leaning, standing up, thinking, emotions, sensations, etc.. are my objects of mindfulness.. Anything I have in the current moment *is* my object of mindfulness.. Therefore, I see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta.. As long as we have Insight and experience the three Lakkhanas, we are walking the Noble Path.. << ---- One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet listening to the Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide supporting CONDITIONS for the arising of knowledge and vision - not as a cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a non-conceptual knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. One must move from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the *direct experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of anicca, dukkha and anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate attention) into the stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of stress, and the path leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of one's experience. ------- >> Beautifully and clearly put !! "CONDITIONS".. Kamma.. that's our ruler.. :-)) We don't control our meditation, but we are in it.. Anatta.. :-)) Let us relax and be mindful.. :-)) Moment by moment, we walk the Noble Path.. We must experience the three Lakkhanas in order to go toward Nibbana.. :-)) <<---- I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must endeavor to apply the practice of listening, considering, and directly experiencing realities whenever possible in daily life, through satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to minimize the importance of this aspect of one's practice. But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) that lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html ------- >> Only seven STAGES ?? There are about 14 or 19 LEVELS of Insight.. I don't have the Insight Levels memorized, and I don't recall the exact numbers of Insight Levels.. Venerable Mahasi listed them in his books, somewhere.. Either STAGES or LEVELS, let us move forward with Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. :-)) Have you thought of the term "Living Meditation" ?? Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) Mindfulness is life, Life is mindfulness.. Oh well, that's my goal.. :-)) We can't be a part-time Arahant, can we ?? hehehehehe.. << ---- Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to steady the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana precedes samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be rectified. See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. ------- >> We should not fear Jhana or Samadhi.. :-)) If someone prefers to enjoy the pleasure of Jhana and does not want to move further on the Noble Path, we should respect his/her wish.. We should uphold Right Speech.. We should not push others to walk further down the Noble Path as we like to do.. Whenever their Kamma and Paramitta are just right, they will continue their Noble Path.. I guess most meditators have heard a lot of praises for Nibbana; their listening will become a future condition for them to want to walk further WHENEVER that time will come.. Actually, we should be happy for those meditators who have reached Jhana and chosen to stay there, because they are not suffering in the moment of Jhana.. For their happiness, we should be happy with them.. :-)) I heard someone has enjoyed the Jhana state, off and on, for about 30 years, and recently got "unsettled" because that state would not quit and he needed to come back to it to feel better.. That's his own taste of suffering through Jhana, because he started to develop Insight.. You see, it's a natural thing for all beings to move along to Nibbana, sooner or later.. :-)) Vipassana ?? Is it the task of developing Insight ?? If it is so, there is nothing for us to fear, because Insight is the knowledge which cuts through everything.. Insight is light, while Moha/avijja (spelling) is darkness.. When we have Insight, there is nothing called darkness.. All we need to do is to relax our body and mind, while keeping Mindfulness constant and continuous.. As Vipassana practitioners, we should be aware of ourselves from moment to moment and apply the seven factors of enlightenment accordingly.. Analogy : when drive a car "straight" down a road, we must pay attention to the road and slightly move the wheel so that the car will hug the curve or go straight on time; we can't drive straight even if we go straight down the road, but we must watch the road.. So, we watch ourselves with Mindfulness.. :-)) Samadhi and Vipassana are both "tools" to help us walk the Noble Path.. Let us encourage each of us to walk.. Let us not worry much about falling off the cliff, because there are no cliff and no side to the Noble Path.. hehehe.. When we see, we note : "seeing, seeing,.." When we sit, we note : "sitting, sitting,.." When we walk, we note : "walking, walking,.." When we Jhana, we note : "jhana, jhana,.." With metta, Theresa. 387 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:10am Subject: Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality Hello Jonothan, << ---- I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our attachments, expectations etc. But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in 'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects. So if there are no conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also. I find that understanding this, if only at an intellectual level, is helpful in understanding dosa as simply a conditioned reality. ------- >> There is Dosa, because there is something you wish for but can not get it.. Meaning, there is a minute Lobha behind your Dosa.. There is Lobha, because there is something you don't like and then you don't have it.. Meaning, there is a minute Dosa behind your Lobha.. We are angry, because there is something we want but can't have.. We are happy, because there is something we fear and are lucky not to have it.. The minute wish/fear is the Second Noble Truth.. It's very small, simple and human.. For instance: I want to be happy, secure, peaceful, and not being hurt.. When there is a car running a red light and toward my car, I instantly think of accident and death, my body reacts so, and my mind gets worried/angry/fear (Dosa).. However, when I am fully aware of my living, from moment to moment, I will realize of each thought crossing my mind, live each fully, and acknowledge it, then there is no fear/anger/Dosa when the other car is coming toward me, and there will not be any happy feeling afterward when I escape the accident.. We really have to watch out for our "peace" talk.. hehehehe... With metta, Theresa. 388 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 8:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Theresa, I want to make some detailed comments about the nature of sati in samattha and in vipassana but I would appreciate if you could answer these questions. I like your lenghthy comments as the details help us understand each other. 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". 3.Please describe in detail how you "have Insight and experience the three > Lakkhanas," and how you "see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta.". 4. What is sati awre of when it has "mindfulness going continuously" Robert > > By practice, I know two types of Concentration : > (1) the "big" Concentration applied in Samadhi .. > Let's refer to it > as "Big-C" in this message.. > (2) the "small" Concentration used in Vipassana .. I > have heard other > terms like "Momentary Concentration" or "Near > Concentration".. Let's > refer to it as the "small-C" in this message.. > > I am never sure of the terms, but I just know how to > ease my mind > toward Concentration and how to apply it.. > Concentration is very > important in the three steps : Morality - > Concentration - Insight.. > > In my own practice, I notice that the strong the > Big-C gained from > the Samadhi practice helps me gain easier and faster > the small-C > during Vipassana practice, and thus, I can keep > Vipassana Mindfulness > going continuously for a longer period of time.. > Yet, I can use the > small-C alone to strengthen the small-C without the > need to switch > over to practicing Samadhi for more big-C.. > > You referred to "awakening".. > I guess you stress the development of Insight.. > > For me, the small-C is directly linked to and helps > develop Insight.. > If we have the small-C steady, we can keep > Mindfulness going and > developing Insight in any situation. ((..While > living.. During our > normal life.. Even in stressful situations.. When > our mind screams > for help, wants to give up everything and quit..)) > For me, the big-C, > which is useful to help gain and keep the small-C > during > Vipassana/Insight, does not contribute directly to > the development > and growth of Insight.. > > For instance, I entered Jhana (or whatever that > wonderful state is).. > I can choose to expand it to cover the universe or > infinity (or > whatever that is).. I can choose to expand my > consciousness to cover > the universe or infinity.. I can also choose to shut > all and dark > all, and that's all to it.. These choices give me > whatever concepts I > choose to have, and so, it seems to me that they are > "permanent" > until I quit Jhana.. However, at this time, if I > were to step back a > little by reducing the big-C to a small-C while > keeping the Jhana > state, then I gain Insight very quickly, and the > Jhana state becomes > the object of Mindfulness, and Insight dissects it > as if Insight > would dissect the five aggregates in the pure > Vipassana practice.. > When Insight dissects the Jhana state, I can > changes/Impermanence of > the mind and body in order to produce Jhana, and > also, Dukkha and > Anatta.. > > For instance, I practice Vipassana in General > Practice.. Eating, > sitting, typing, walking, leaning, standing up, > thinking, emotions, > sensations, etc.. are my objects of mindfulness.. > Anything I have in > the current moment *is* my object of mindfulness.. > .. > > .. > > << ---- > One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet > listening to the > Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide > supporting > CONDITIONS for the arising of knowledge and vision - > not as a > cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a > non-conceptual > knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. > One must move > from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the > *direct > experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of > anicca, dukkha and > anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate > attention) into the > stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of > stress, and the path > leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of > one's experience. > ------- >> > > Beautifully and clearly put !! > > "CONDITIONS".. Kamma.. that's our ruler.. :-)) > We don't control our meditation, but we are in it.. > Anatta.. :-)) > Let us relax and be mindful.. :-)) > Moment by moment, we walk the Noble Path.. > We must experience the three Lakkhanas in order to > go toward > Nibbana.. :-)) > > <<---- > I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is > ONLY possible > through sitting and walking meditation in quiet > seclusion. But in my > own experience, such conditions seem to be the most > supportive of the > arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must > endeavor to > apply the practice of listening, considering, and > directly > experiencing realities whenever possible in daily > life, through > satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to > minimize the > importance of this aspect of one's practice. But > one must not > neglect meditation, either. For it provides > supporting conditions > that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification > (visuddhi) that > lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" > by Ven. Mahasi > Sayadaw at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html > ------- >> > > Only seven STAGES ?? There are about 14 or 19 > LEVELS of Insight.. I > don't have the Insight Levels memorized, and I don't > recall the exact > numbers of Insight Levels.. Venerable Mahasi listed > them in his > books, somewhere.. Either STAGES or LEVELS, let us > move forward with > Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. :-)) > > Have you thought of the term "Living Meditation" ?? > Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) > Mindfulness is life, Life is mindfulness.. > Oh well, that's my goal.. :-)) > We can't be a part-time Arahant, can we ?? > hehehehehe.. > > << ---- > Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be > developed in > tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they > will get caught up > in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop > vipassana. But a > degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to > steady the mind, to > make it "soft and receptive to insight". > === message truncated === 389 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother >(Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being >taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment >where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, >amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". > >The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be >disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects >our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to >know these tendencies more clearly. > >Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for reflection >about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off the >study of the present reality. > >Jonothan Jonothan, As another person prone to every accumulated kilesa, I must confess my own 'obituary syndrome' when someone's death makes me forget any negative memories about them. I realize of course that my memory is one of the worst where people are concerned, but I find that I have to think really hard to remember anything wrong with a dead friend. My father was not the best of family men, although he was a sort of genius and had a very successful career; but since he passed away I find that I even make excuses for the more obvious faults: 'at least he didn't...' etc. I really hate to hear anything bad said about anyone not there to defend themselves under any circumstances. (I know, dosa!) The same with good friends. It must be my progressive accumulation of lobha, I generally remember the better parts and find it difficult to dig up unpleasantness, another of the enumerable realities to be studied there! I really believe that if he knows about our work somehow, wherever he is, he would be very pleased and enthusiastic about our efforts in the service of the Buddha's teachings in these hi-tech times! Amara P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild roller coaster ride! =^_^= 390 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:12pm Subject: Re: About Concentration Hello Robert, << ---- I want to make some detailed comments about the nature of sati in samattha and in vipassana but I would appreciate if you could answer these questions. I like your lenghthy comments as the details help us understand each other. ------- >> I am more than happy to answer your questions, but please remember that my writings are based on a lot of my own experience and practice.. Everybody has a different Kamma, and so, each of us needs guidance of a wise teacher.. I'm a dhamma friend and not a teacher.. I look forward to your comments to help me grow spiritually.. To answer your questions, I will repeat a lot of things you may have heard an uncountable number of times, and may have everything memorized with good terminology, too.. If I refer to something new and different that what you have learned, that something is questionable and not trustable.. I guess that, after you read my answers, you will say : "Is that all to it?? I already know that and more.." :-)) Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? A: It depends on the ability of each person at different time.. Our meditation ability changes, but with practice, it generally improves over time.. At my fastest rate, it was very-very-very fast.. I don't know exactly how many mindfulness moment passes in the time of a blink.. My slowest rate, right now, could be once a hour or so, and that means I forget to be mindful for that long.. hehehe.. Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". A: By exerting steady and continuous effort.. (1) exert enough Right Effort to see the event (ie, whatever you are mindful in the current moment) clearly and precisely, (2) exert enough Right Effort to see the Beginning of the even precisely at the beginning, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time, (3) exert enough Right Effort to see the entire event from the Beginning to the End of it, (4) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the event, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time at the very end of it, (5) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the current event and the Beginning of the next event.. If you keep your Right Effort constant like that, your Mindfulness will be continuous.. Therefore, in order to keep mindfulness going continuously, we must be mindful with ONE current moment at a time.. See, nothing new !! :-)) Q: (3a).Please describe in detail how you "have Insight and experience the three Lakkhanas," A: I vaguely recall that I wrote something on seeing Lakkhanas.. Was it for this list or Vipassana list ??.. I usually delete all old messages, and so, Robert, if you have my old message from Vipassana list, please share it this list.. Thank you.. Anyway, I will try a short description (short? how? hehe) of "how" to gain Insight, and "how Insight lead us to experience the three Lakkhanas".. Q: "how" to gain Insight ?? A: We need to keep Mindfulness continuous in order to have Concentration.. When we have Concentration (focusing), we can start (seeing).. Buddha gave us many guidelines to be seen, like : the 5 aggregates, the 7 factors of enlightenment, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, Lobha, Dosa, the 4 viharas, seeing, hearing, Dukkha, Source Dukha, Intention, etc.. Venerables, like Venerable Mahasi, gave many details for us to be mindful of : eating, sitting, walking, etc.. Vipassana does not necessarily keep ONE object of mindfulness, but keeps "MIndfulness continuous".. Vipassana applies the "momentary Concentration" to see (Insight) whatever most prominent to us in the current moment.. Q: (3b).Please describe in detail how you "...experience the three Lakkhanas," .. how you "see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta." A: When we keep Mindfulness continuous with "momentary Concentration", while the object of Mindfulness changes, we eventually see changes, thus Impermanence.. When Impermanence is continuous (because Mindfulness and Insight are continuous), Impermanence brings "stress", and thus, we experience Dukkha.. About this time, when we try to keep up as much Mindfulness as we can in order to have an continuous understanding of the changes, we suddenly experience (feel/understand clearly in each moment) that there is nothing called "I", but we see changes.. Changes (Impermanence) becomes oppressive (because we exert Right Effort to keep Mindfulness and Insight continuous), we see Anatta continuously.. As I said, nothing is new, and you probably have heard it to the point of memorizing it.. The point, I try to stress here, is that we MUST keep Mindfulness continuous, and we MUST have Continuous Insight.. Lakkhana is the Dhammas we are looking for as a necessary tool to guide us toward Magga/Phala/Nibbana.. This Lakkhana tool is only useful when we can experience it continuously and directly, without any reasoning.. CONTINUOUS AND DIRECT EXPERIENCE is crucial.. Please understand that we must experience/know Lakkhana by experience, just like we must experience/know Concentration.. Ex: in the moment when we have Concentration, we know we do.. Ex: in the moment when we have Lakkhana, we know we do.. Only direct experience (pure awareness) count.. Q: 4. What is sati awre of when it has "mindfulness going continuously" A: Whatever our PROMINENT experience is in the current moment, we should be mindful of it, and Sati is Mindfulness.. Therefore, in Vipassana, when we keep Mindfulness going continuously, we "see" a series of current moments, moment by moment, with extreme clarity.. Analogy : Taking picture with a camera.. (a) Taking picture is Sati (Mindfulness) (b) Taking ONE frame at a time is like Concentration (one- pointedness).. (c) Obtaining a clear picture is like Insight (seeing clearly).. (d) When we put a series of picture frames together into a series, we have a movie.. This is like "Mindfulness going continuously to see every frame, one by one, at high speed, in order to make out the whole story.." We have seen "self" and everything with a wrong (blurry) view, as if we take pictures while we jump up and down.. When we make a movie out of blurry pictures, we have avijja (spelling? or is it Moha?).. When we use Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight to take clear pictures, we now see for real what everything is and we understand (wake up? enlightened? detached? or whatever we might like to call that experience.. hehehe).. (a) Sati takes pictures, (b) Concentration focuses on one frame at a time, (c) Insight has clear pictures and combines clear pictures into a movie.. This is how Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight work together.. About your question (#4), Mindfulness is still Mindfulness as we learn from day one, even though we might see things more clearly (more details, more subtle) and even though we might see more events per blink.. By the way, the difference between Samadhi and Vipassana as I see is that Samadhi, when I practice, has only ONE object of mindfulness, and in Vipassana, the object of mindfulness changes.. Ex: for Samadhi, I might "meditate" with Light as my object of mindfulness, and eventually spread it out to more corners of the world (geez, my poor terminology !! hehe).. Ex: for Vipassana, I "meditate" to understand the "Self" and the four Noble Truths, and I expand that to include the idea that "everything else changes all the time, like 'me'.." (I run out of terms..hehe).. Let's hope we have communicated.. hehehehe.. With metta, Theresa. P.S.: My son needs to use the computer.. I want to review my message before sending but can't.. I hope you can guess my thoughts.. :-)) 391 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Amara, I hope you don't mind my asking.. What do you mean in your P.S. note.. What you wrote sounds beautiful, but I don't understand what you mean.. My English problem ?? hehehe.. If it's not important, you don't need to explain.. :-)) Which one is the slow moving river ? Which one is the roller coaster ride ? Did I write something not useful but harmful to someone ?? > P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's > beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild > roller coaster ride! > =^_^= Theresa. 392 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend Dear Jonothan, Amara and friends, I also find any reflections on death very helful and sobering. Thus we are reminded to reflect on death many, many times a day..'like fire on our heads' to remind us of precious opportunites to develop kusala of all kinds now. I remember when Kh Sujin's sister lost her husband, Kh Sujin reminded her that he'd been just like a 'wind' blowing in and out of her life....what we grieve for is ourselves, not for the other person. Nanda's mother can be an inspiration to us and yet as you say, we need to be realistic and not afraid of our kilesa. It's better to know them and be honest with ourselves. In the same way, I used to be reminded by Kh Sujin to be 'realistic' and not 'optimistic' or 'pessimistic' when thinking about others. I used to think people were really good at heart and lots of people had lots of understanding. I was not being realistic. I agree w/ Amara that we need to be honest about our cetana, intention, when we speak about others (so often w/ lobha or dosa) but I also agree that it's usually better to reflect on the good qualities of someone who has passed away to avoid misunerstandings for one thing. This is usually more helpful to us too. We all have such complex accumulations and it's so easy to mistakenly take them for something, for a self, for a personality or even many personalities that YOU or I should be mindful of! Best regards Sarah > > >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother > >(Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being > >taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of >enlightenment > >where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, > >amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of >heart". > > > >The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to >be > >disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply >reflects > >our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to > >know these tendencies more clearly. > > > >Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for >reflection > >about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off >the > >study of the present reality. > > > >Jonothan > > >Jonothan, > >As another person prone to every accumulated kilesa, I must confess my own >'obituary syndrome' when someone's death makes me forget any negative >memories about them. I realize of course that my memory is one of the >worst >where people are concerned, but I find that I have to think really hard to >remember anything wrong with a dead friend. My father was not the best of >family men, although he was a sort of genius and had a very successful >career; but since he passed away I find that I even make excuses for the >more obvious faults: 'at least he didn't...' etc. I really hate to hear >anything bad said about anyone not there to defend themselves under any >circumstances. (I know, dosa!) The same with good friends. It must be my >progressive accumulation of lobha, I generally remember the better parts >and >find it difficult to dig up unpleasantness, another of the enumerable >realities to be studied there! > >I really believe that if he knows about our work somehow, wherever he is, >he >would be very pleased and enthusiastic about our efforts in the service of >the Buddha's teachings in these hi-tech times! > >Amara > 393 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration Dear Theresa, You are a really prolific writer! Thanks for answering my questions so honestly and quickly. I reply to only a few points as time is short. ”Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? A: It depends on the ability of each person at different time.. Our meditation ability changes, but with practice, it generally improves over time.. At my fastest rate, it was very-very-very fast.. I don't know exactly how many mindfulness moment passes in the time of a blink.. My slowest rate, right now, could be once a hour or so, and that means I forget to be mindful for that long.. hehehe.”. I asked this question because I wanted to see if you knew that in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening continually whether anyone has awareness or not. Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature. “Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". A: By exerting steady and continuous effort.. (1) exert enough Right Effort to see the event (ie, whatever you are mindful in the current moment) clearly and precisely, (2) exert enough Right Effort to see the Beginning of the even precisely at the beginning, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time, (3) exert enough Right Effort to see the entire event from the Beginning to the End of it, (4) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the event, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time at the very end of it, (5) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the current event and the Beginning of the next event.. If you keep your Right Effort constant like that, your Mindfulness will be continuous.. Therefore, in order to keep mindfulness going continuously, we must be mindful with ONE current moment at a time.. See, nothing new !! :-))” You talk about “seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..’ but an event has gone even before we knew it was there. Billions of events have passed in a split second. Until there has been nama-rupa parrichedda nana, the stage of experiencing the difference between nama and rupa it cannot be that a deeper stage can occur. Have you experienced nama-rupa parichedda nana yet? You don’t need to ask a teacher. Now there is seeing and color and the sensitive rupa in the eyes. Seeing is nama, the other 2 are rupa. The rupas are also arising and passing away at astronomical speed. Is the difference between seeing and color clearly seen? Or is it a little confused, mixed up? The color touches the rupa which is eyebase and that special type of consciousness which is seeing also arise there – Are they really distinguished and are the brief moments of sati contacting them understood as not mine? A: When we keep Mindfulness continuous with "momentary Concentration", while the object of Mindfulness changes, we eventually see changes, thus Impermanence.. When Impermanence is continuous (because Mindfulness and Insight are continuous), Impermanence brings "stress", and thus, we experience Dukkha.. About this time, when we try to keep up as much Mindfulness as we can in order to have an continuous understanding of the changes, we suddenly experience (feel/understand clearly in each moment) that there is nothing called "I", but we see changes.. Changes (Impermanence) becomes oppressive (because we exert Right Effort to keep Mindfulness and Insight continuous), we see Anatta continuously.. The whole idea of continuous mindfulness comes from a deep-seated belief in self. The processes of cittas are alternating rapidly, acting under complex conditions. Uncontrollable, including sati. “we suddenly feel that that there is nothing called “I’” ; This is just thinking about anatta, it is not the direct experience. I will write more about sati later as time allows. Robert 394 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend >I hope you don't mind my asking.. What do you mean in your P.S. >note.. What you wrote sounds beautiful, but I don't understand what >you mean.. My English problem ?? hehehe.. If it's not important, you >don't need to explain.. :-)) > >Which one is the slow moving river ? >Which one is the roller coaster ride ? >Did I write something not useful but harmful to someone ?? > > > P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's > > beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild > > roller coaster ride! > > =^_^= > >Theresa. Theresa, It just means I am enjoying the messages immensely and look forward to more!!! I don't think anyone here finds your English a problem, in fact it's rather fun to read, although the content sometimes leaves one breathless- hence the emotional roller coaster allusion- at least to me. In a way you seem to take the ups and downs so well, as a part of life- but what I really will really enjoy is the discussion you will be having with Robert (another wonderful writer), about views on the dhamma, so please continue, for all our sakes! Amara 395 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:08pm Subject: DSSF English discussion Dear friends in the dhamma, I would like to make a suggestion for those attending the English discussion at the DSSF this Saturday afternoon: in addition to preparing any questions you might have for Khun Sujin, could you please read or look through her book 'Summary' to see if you would like her to explain anything? Perhaps at least the first chapter, so we will have something 'meaty' that not all 'experts' can explain to disect. And anyone not attending, with any questions for her, could please post them here at DSDG and I will print them out for her, Amara 396 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: About Concentration Hello Robert, To make our discussion more beneficial to both of us and other members of the list, may I suggest that all of us practice, or at least try to practice, what we discuss.. I vaguely recall that Buddha taught us that practicing is believing in the Dhamma He taught.. Is that right ??.. I am more than happy to answer questions which come about because something I wrote can not be applied practically to someone's practice.. Questions like that will help me greatly, because they will point to me areas I thought I knew but are blind to.. << ----- Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? I asked this question because I wanted to see if you knew that in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening > continually whether anyone has awareness or not. Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature. -------- >> Insight must be developed gradually.. I guess you discuss about the maximum possibility of Insight (and speed of Insight).. My answer based on how far my progress of Insight is.. Analogy : reading a book.. First, we read the cover : the title (and other display on the front) and more details (and other parts on the back).. Next, we read the first few pages : Introduction, About the Author, Table of Contents, Table of Illustrations.. Next, we read the details of the Table of Contents, and digest them (well, sort of).. Next, we read the first chapter, starting with its introduction and trying to grab the general topic of that chapter, and then reading the rest of the chapter (especially, if the book is a technical book).. Next, we repeat the same process of reading the other chapters one by one.. While reading the chapters, we might flip back many times to the previous chapter, to the Table of Contents, to the Table of Index, to the cover etc.. Same as reading the book, we develop Insight about our "Self".. We slowly and gradually understand "Self" in stages or levels (terms ?).. A person, who can identify only two things, Nama and Rupa (or mind and body), during a Sitting Meditation by exerting a lot of Right Effort, has seen the FIRST LEVEL OF INSIGHT about the "Self".. A person, who is entering Magga/Phala/Nibbana and has Insight going at an extremely fast rate and can see a lot of Dhamma, has seen the same "Self" with more details and understanding.. That's how we must appreciate Insight and its development.. I guess what you described is the maximum speed of the mind, which, I purely guess, Arahants can do.. Therefore, the claim that << Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. >> should not be a concern (hindrance ?) to Vipassana meditators.. We, meditators, can develop and increase Insight with practice and time.. Our maximum ability is not our concern, but is the work of our collective and still- collecting Paramitta (spelling?) and our Kamma.. Many Buddhist friends of mine, who come from non-Theravada schools, strongly believe that we, humans, are unable to develop something wonderful called "Panna" (which I prefer to call it "Insight" for the fact that it helps me "see" the reality in the current moment).. They place Insight on an unreachable pedestal by referring to it as "Panna", some magical power, unreachable to human beings.. You wrote : << Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature.>> Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati, practice it, and will practice the same thing as long as we continue walking the Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve" or "change" into anything more wonderful than it, Sati.. Mindfulness.. Pure Awareness.. What we see in the current moment is Insight.. Insight changes as we grow spiritually.. The spectrum of Insight is extremely wide.. On one end is the Nama-Rupa Insight level, the first level of Insight.. I can't imagine the other extreme or Buddha's mind, and Buddha warned us not to think about His mind.. It is Insight, which penenatres the nature of "Self" and all processes of Mind and Body.. YOu wrote : <<... in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening continually whether anyone has awareness or not... >> As I heard and read, only Arahants can break loose from Avijja.. You referred to that "billions of moments of mind", and I guess that your reference points to Arahant's Mindfulness ability.. May I suggest that we simply put the topics beyond our practice level to a side, because they will not benefit us at this time.. << ----- Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". You talk about "seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..' but an event has gone even before we knew it was there. Billions of events have passed in a split second. -------- >> My suggestion stressed Right Effort and Right Mindfulness, in such a way to help us increase Concentration and gain Insight almost immediately, or in few Mindfulness, or in few minutes, or within one Sitting session, or within one day.. It would work for all of us, novices or progressive practitioners.. Please try-try-try and try to keep your Mindfulness going for "seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..'".. This is very important.. With this much Effort and Mindfulness, your walking is very fast forward.. Best of luck and, most of all, best of patience to all of us.. :-)) You wrote << Until there has been nama-rupa parrichedda nana, the stage of experiencing the difference between nama and rupa it cannot be that a deeper stage can occur. >> I don't quite understand what you wrote.. If we apply Mindfulness and Effort as I suggested, we can reach the first level of Insight in no time.. The "nama-rupa parrichedda nana" is what I referred to by the "first level of Insight", because it is the first level of insight.. It's like reading the cover, both front and back, of the book.. Before this Insight, we saw "Me" (Self) and we believe that there is "me" living.. When we have this Insight, we are then certain that there is "Self-less" because there are two parts, body and mind, working separately.. This first level of Insight is the first glimpse to "Anatta".. :-)) << ----- Have you experienced nama-rupa parichedda nana yet? -------- >> Yes, and many more levels of Insight.. Where do I get information to write on long messages (because I don't know how to write them short.. hahaha) if I didn't experience them myself.. My book knowledge is a mess, and my terminology is patchy and poor.. You can say that I am a progressive meditator.. hehehe.. << ----- You don't need to ask a teacher. Now there is seeing and color and the sensitive rupa in the eyes. Seeing is nama, the other 2 are rupa. The rupas are also arising and passing away at astronomical speed. Is the difference between seeing and color clearly seen? Or is it a little confused, mixed up? The color touches the rupa which is eyebase and that special type of consciousness which is seeing also arise there – Are they really distinguished and are the brief moments of sati contacting them understood as not mine? -------- >> Robert, you successfully confused me.. hahaha.. It seems that your discussion mixed the first level of Insight with the "ultamax" (term I learned from my 11-year-old son) level of Insight of Arahants.. In my humble (and I mean "HUMBLE") practice compared to Arahants', I can not see most Insight described in Abhidhamma, but I successfully achieved few humble ones.. (( I prefer to refrain from sharing my progress, because it does not benefit anyone, even me, but might be a condition for our Dosa/Lobha sankharas to arise.. )) About seeing, my Insight, at its best, shows this much : (1) Consciousness is at the eyes (2) Intention to see what information the eyes give (3) A lot of mumbling (ie, thinking, processing, but jumping about on different topics in my mind) (4) recognizing what is seen (5) from here on, everything is "uncontrollable", meaning, my Insight is not strong enough to cut through.. I have emotions, valueing, judgment, planning, thinking, likes/dislikes, etc.. Everything is in my mind, and nothing has to do directly with the object beeing seen.. At this time, the best I could do is exerting Mindfulness to catch "thinking" and end it, then catch an emotion and end it, and catch and end, catch and end, etc. until my mind suddenly switches over to another topic or another consciousness.. This is how much I know, and nothing more on seeing, hearing, etc.. Again, Sati is Sati; Insight understands.. << ----- The whole idea of continuous mindfulness comes from a deep-seated belief in self. The processes of cittas are alternating rapidly, acting under complex conditions. Uncontrollable, including sati. -------- >> Very true.. We will continue to have "Self" and stuck with it totally or in some degree until the final liberation of Arahantship.. Where there is "Self", there is "continuous".. The more Insight we have, the lesser the strength of "Self".. In the current moment, if we have Insight, we are detached in some degree from the "Self".. Vipassana meditators walk the Noble Path, gradually increase the strength of the Light (Insight), and gradually sees more.. "Self" is like total darkness of the world, and the first Insight level is like the light on a small flashlight.. The light on the small flashlight can not shine the world, but it allows us to see enough to walk safely.. If someone mentions that the world is much bigger than we can see with the flashlight, should we consider that our sight is incomplete, fake or wrong ?? Should we pause our Effort or abandon our practice or doubt our seeing altogether, because someone else mentions about things we are yet to see ?? We must be patient and trust our Insight of the current moment.. For each level of Insight, for each increasing strength of light, we will see more.. With the first level of Insight, we might see enough to step, and later on, we might see an entire street, then the sidewalks, then houses, then cities, etc... Please do not worry about "Self" and what it is.. We should focus on what we know and experience.. We should feel encouraged to walk further on the Noble Path, because we can see that there is "No Self" (one combined identity called "I") but two separate entities (body and mind; rupa and nama) working side by side and together.. What Arahants or Buddha see does not relate to our "Self", but their success is an encouragement to us that : "If we keep up with the practice of Mindfulness, we will see more and more and more, and the more we see and understand, the less suffering we have.." Let us keep Mindfulness continuous as much as we can.. With metta, Theresa. 397 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:53pm Subject: I'm confused.. :-)) Hello Amara, << ---- It just means I am enjoying the messages immensely and look forward to more!!! I don't think anyone here finds your English a problem, in fact it's rather fun to read, ... ------- >> so far so good... << ---- ... although the content sometimes leaves one breathless- hence the emotional roller coaster allusion- at least to me. ------- >> Oooops!! Why do you have the emotional roller coaster ?? Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful to me.. I guess if you test what I wrote by your own practice, you would not have any "emotional roller coaster allusion" at all.. Is that right ?? << ----- In a way you seem to take the ups and downs so well, as a part of life- -------- >> To walk the Noble Path, we must experience and understand Dukkha in many forms at many levels.. Whenever we understand Dukkha (a set of defilements), we can then let go of the defilements and thus, no longer experience the defilement-related Dukkha.. Experiencing and Understanding is "Insight".. :-)) << ----- but what I really will really enjoy is the discussion you will be having with Robert (another wonderful writer), about views on the dhamma, so please continue, for all our sakes! -------- >> In my opinion, Robert is a very good writer.. I can only write what I know, and I have a challenging time explaining my practice and experience.. Whenever I don't know, I will share that I don't know.. The possible benefits of dhamma friends on this list are the reasons for me to write and post my messages.. I do hope someone will find my writings useful in some way to his/her practice.. With metta, Theresa. 398 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 1:41am Subject: Re: I'm confused.. :-)) > Oooops!! Why do you have the emotional roller coaster ?? > Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't > understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put > what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by > experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or > not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful > to me.. I guess if you test what I wrote by your own practice, you > would not have any "emotional roller coaster allusion" at all.. Is > that right ?? Theresa, My allusion was not about your writings about the dhamma, or the methods you write about, but I just can't help, with my own accumulations of kilesa, help having certain emotions when you write: Time is the only thing I have now.. My misfortune is your luck... hehehe.. I have been buried in misfortune for the last 12 years.. If Mindfulness is not around, my mind is a goner, too.. hehehe.. My life is about to close another chapter (a divorce), and I can't even find a job to claim my independence.. I have tried to return to my old career as a programming, after 9 years being away from it; I have no luck yet.. I will have to take computer classes and will see from there.. By the way, please don't feel sorry for me about the divorce.. It's a blessing in disguise.. I now have a much lighter load and live peacefully and happily each day, having not much to gain or loose.. Of course this is just what appears through the eyes, but the mind connotes such concepts to them that it appears as stories and events, good and bad, from friends and new friends, when in fact they are just colors and forms. Our attachments to concepts are overpowering indeed, which is why sati is so vital in the understanding of things as they really are, it puts things in the proper perspective so sharply, as well as accumulate knowledge for future enlightenment. It is a wonder indeed that anything can be the object of sati, whether dead friends or new ones or the concepts of all the world, as well as what appears through the sense doors. Thoughts do rule our lives, and the vast majority are not even conscious of this. All this is measuring my accumulations and presenting a multitude of things to study! To think that the Buddha taught us this unique path of vipassana, since before his time there were already samatha as well as dana and sila, leaves me in ever increasing awe of his omniscience. Amara 399 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 7:39am Subject: It's quite all right.. :-)) Hello Amara and all, I thank you, Amara, for clarify my confusion.. :-)) << ----- ... Our attachments to concepts are overpowering indeed, which is why sati is so vital in the understanding of things as they really are, it puts things in the proper perspective so sharply, as well as accumulate knowledge for future enlightenment. . . . Thoughts do rule our lives. . . All this is measuring my accumulations and presenting a multitude of things to study! . . . -------- >> Wow !!! :-)) Please allow me to share with you some things (lessons ?) I have gathered from my own suffering and my own mistakes.. They are like little attitudes or vows to help increase my inner strength.. I share because I hope that you can add or subtract some from your own set of attitudes and vows so that it works best for you.. Whatever works for me might not work for others.. Eucalyptus is healthy and stable diet for Koala bears but poison to us.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. If certain attitudes seem to be worthless, meaningless and useless to you, please simply ignore them as such.. :-)) Please share your lessons with me and others, because we don't have time to make all mistakes ourselves.. hehehe.. I have tons of "attitudes" about life, and my list changes as I walk the Noble Path further with Mindfulness.. Here are some : (1) I vow to change me, not the world. (2) I vow to find out the core reasons which allow "me" to see, feel and view things different from others.. This reason, as I believe, is the cause of all my suffering (( Suffering is what I can "feel" as emotions, something humanly natural )).. Emotions/suffering, as I believe, is only temporary and changeable states of my life or my health or my mind or my body.. If I am with it, things rung smooth; if not, I'm not ok (suffering).. :-)) [[ I have this vow, because I notice that when I cried miserably under the sun, there was a child running about on the same lawn laughing where I was, and there was an old person strolling on with mixed possible emotions : (a) appreciating the cheer and the health of the child, (b) feeling pity for the crying person (me) with some unknown (silly? silly because it's unknown to him/her) reason, and (c) working hard and carefully which each step he/she took to make sure that the balance was there for the new step.. Under the same conditions, the sun and the lawn, people can have different emotions.. This fact triggered a vow that I can have a different emotion.. In short, the change of emotion has nothing to do with anything else.. I love this discovery.. hehehe..]] (3) I vow that I will keep Mindfulness going as continuous as I can, thus I must be aware of "this living THING" (me) , and that my goal to have Mindfulness as "the" reaction to all states of my mind.. (4) I have to remind myself over and over again that the imperfection of the so-called "I", and that I should not protect "it" ("I", "me") from the judgment from others and mine.. It ("I") should be dissected, examined, judged, tested with all sorts of mental and physical pain in order for "it" to understand "itself".. Honesty and facing the truths and facts are my vows.. Any tears, any sadness, any laughter, any joy, any numbness are "big signs" that "I" control (?) the situation and twists emotions unreasonably.. (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. hehehe.. ]] (6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!) bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations (Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble Truths.. hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-)) (7) Must try and try to be in others' shoes.. Must try to have more than one viewpoints.. If there is a new viewpoint which I have never heard of before, it must be my ignorance, and so, I must learn and accept it as another possibility to life, which I have been blind to.. This task is challenging and continues to be.. :-)) (8) Whatever I have or own is my burden and yet, my blessing in an unseparable mixture.. Ex: because I have an arm, I must take care of it (responsibility is a burden), and if it gets injured, it hurts (another burden) "me" (another burden).. Yet, I must fully appreciate its values, and all the wonderful things "I" can do with it.. Such inseparable mixture !! Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I want or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, lobha/dosa) change accordingly.. Such inseparable mixture !! Therefore, my job, as a Vipassana meditator, is to find out what I want or don't want in each moment of living.. Mindfulness is the only tool I have to let me know what I want or don't want in the current moment, and so, I must try to remember to be mindful.. Dukkha shall be the best reminder for me of my Mindfulness job.. :-)) (9) I must catch "me" on time, in the current moment of the "me" existence.. I must try to know "me" from moment to moment in order to know what to do with "me" and in order to catch "me" with its confusion (term ?) on time.. I can sit in meditation a thousand hours, for years after years, and gain many levels of Insights, but all that is useless when I loose to Dosa/Lobha in one blip of the mind when Mindfulness is not around and when the conditions are ripe for Dosa/Lobha.. What the use of meditating if I can't end my emotions right in the moment of living and experiencing Dosa/Lobha ??.. And so, I must try to keep Mindfulness going as continuous as I can.. (10) I "fear" living within Dosa/Lobha and without Mindfulness.. Suffering is "quite OK" if Mindfulness is around, because Mindfulness is my best friend and it can end suffering in the current moment.. Without MIndfulness, "I" can burn everything with Dosa/Lobha.. :-)) (11) Whatever my belief is, if it is the "cause" to Suffering (Lobha or Dosa, or any type of attachments), then that belief must be abolished.. Why ??.. Because my belief is unrealistic (ie.,different from the reality), and because it is another aspect of "I".. etc. etc. That's all I can remember for now.. The more I turn my attention inward, the better I feel, and the stronger I am mentally.. The lesser I have as "mine", the lighter, the happier, the calmer I feel "unconditionally".. I guess, as long as I keep myself on my toes and don't settle for anything, I am doing fine, but once I believe in anything firmly, "I" will hurt myself and others sooner or later.. Pardon for using "I" with and without quotes.. The "I" with quote refers to the "Self" (Ego).. The "I" without quote is whatever I must put in a sentence to meet the English format.. (( my English style [?] is another question.. hehehe)) I should end this message, 'cauz I guess you have got more than enough with my rambling thoughts.. hehehe.. With metta, Theresa. 400 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 3:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] It's quite all right.. :-)) >Wow !!! :-)) > >Please allow me to share with you some things (lessons ?) I have >gathered from my own suffering and my own mistakes.. They are like >little attitudes or vows to help increase my inner strength.. I share >because I hope that you can add or subtract some from your own set of >attitudes and vows so that it works best for you.. Whatever works for >me might not work for others.. Eucalyptus is healthy and stable diet >for Koala bears but poison to us.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. If >certain attitudes seem to be worthless, meaningless and useless to >you, please simply ignore them as such.. :-)) > >Please share your lessons with me and others, because we don't have >time to make all mistakes ourselves.. hehehe.. Theresa, What I study are according to the Buddha's teachings in the Tipitaka, in fact nothing else really interests me. I am not an easy person to convince, only what is unquestionable teachings, like those in the Abhidhamma, can persuade me to even consider trying them out. If I do not fully comprehend something, I never ever, as you wrote: Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful to me.. (end quote.) In fact I agree with what the Buddha taught, never to believe in even his own teachings until you have carefully considered it first. Everything in Buddhism is voluntary, even when you take the precepts (five silas, for example) there are no 'thou shalt nots' but 'I undertake to try not to...', and I am only willing to listen to the teachings of such a supreme person as teaches us incredible things 2500 + years ago that are being, even with computers and such, 'scientifically proven' today just as he described it (for example the existence of other planets which shook the astrological world a few years ago, when the western world, following there blind faith in the Bible, did not believe could exist since the earth was said to be the center of the universe and unique). There are so much that he taught that have not yet been scientifically discovered, but nothing has ever been conclusively proven wrong. Now those is the teachings I would like to try out, especially when the necessary 'lab instuments' are what everyone possesses, and can 'study' at any time, anywhere. I do not need any object other than what is present at the immediate moment, I do not even have to assume any positions physically ('sit down', or 'cross my legs') for sati to arise, when there are conditions for it to. And the more I study, the more I am amazed at the Buddha's omniscience, especially since he has taught me so much, especially about myself. He taught me to see, gradually, that there is in fact no me, though most of the time I forget that, but more profound and clear istants of sati have apeared when I realize they are distinct instants of realities of seeing, thinking, hearing, etc. that belong to no one, uncontrolable realities with infinite combinations of characteristics, always changing, irrecuperable once they are gone. This makes me study even more, whatever appears before me, ever deeper if possible, as well as study the Tripitaka even more because that seems to condition more moments of sati. Of course my accumulations of lobha makes me enjoy lots of other things besides, and I like very much reading letters from friends, which also provide me with instants of sati, which, when conditions (paccaya) are right, nothing can stop from arising, not even being seated (but not cross legged!) in front of the computer! Amara 401 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 0:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration Dear Theresa, Ø My understanding of Buddhism, and hence my whole perspective on life, is quite different from the early years. After learning a little about the nature of the mind I realized how powerful ignorance and desire were. I became frightened by them - . I WANTED TO STOP THEM. I tried to suppress . Tried to keep mindfulness going continuously. It was because I didn't understand anatta. Later, I understood that they can't be quickly got rid of. That when desire arises it is by conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it demonstrates the truth of anatta. Now my focus is always to understand conditions. To let go of trying to control. To see that there is nobody at all doing anything. Before, secretly, unknowingly I was trying to get something for myself, trying to be better a better person, trying to have less dosa, less lobha, more sila. But done with a subtle sense of self. It is not the way. I found it very hard to let go of the idea of control. It is really a complete upturning of the old way of viewing the world. It took time, study and reflection. It seemed so fearful to let go. It helped to take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the sangha. I reflected on the past monks , the ancient ones who recorded the teachings so faithfully. Gradually understanding grew. Now it seems strange to think of anything as controllable. This intellectual acceptance and understanding of anatta is only the beginning of the path - but once we truly see it then our impatience and desire for results fades. Because we know that only by the right conditions can understanding grow. Many never even reach this intellectual stage - they are trying very hard but going in the wrong direction. Even when we begin to see things as they happen it is mostly thinking about them (a sort of thinking in the present moment) rather than direct experience. Do we accept this or do we want more? The right reflection helps to let go the idea of a self who is having understanding. Then there are more conditions for direct experience (of the true kind) But even right reflection can get in the way –if there is clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content because life is now better understood. In the Ogha sutta the Buddha crossed the flood by not stuggling and not tarrying. Now some comments on Dhamma. Some of this I have said before so please excuse the repetition. Ø Whatever we are doing at any moment there are only namas and rupas arising and passing away – as we learn from the Tipitaka. It is true that much of our lives are spent lost in stories about life. Concepts of friends, things, cars, houses, work, and on and on. None of these are real in the deepest sense – they are pannati, concept. If they are not real then why do we think of them? Why do two people looking in the same direction see the same object? Ø Some concepts can be classified as samutti-sacca, conventional truth: as the ancient commentaries explain they are the shadows of realities. When we are thinking about something there are processes of thinking arising and passing away rapidly that have a concept as object. The concept is not real – it is not nama or rupa, but the thinking processes are nama they are actually different cittas and cetasikas doing their intricate work conditioned by different paccaya (conditions) – no self at all. These cittas and cetasikas are nama –they are dhammas and can be objects for sati. Thus there is really no moment that is excluded as a potential object for the development of satipatthana. This doesn’t mean that we can or should know each moment. It is beyond control, conditions have their own agendas and act entirely according to their function and characteristic. Ø No moment is excluded as a potential object for insight. Thus even when we are reading say a novel there are still moments when sati can arise and directly experience a reality as it is: as merely as dhamma . If it is truly a moment of sati at the level of satipathhana then there is no “me” having this sati. No me making it happen, no subtle idea of control, of “bringing” sati up. Ø But especially when we study the Tipitika conditions can quite naturally arise for direct insight. Sometimes people wonder how it is that so many monks , nuns, laypeople and devas could become enlightened just while listening to a Dhamma talk from the Buddha or one f his followers. Ø Firstly it is because they have fulfilled the parami and developed the necessary supporting conditions over many aeons. They did not rush blindly following any teacher or just doing some special technique – they developed understanding and other wholesome qualities whenever the opportunity arose, while working, while thinking, while playing. Sometimes under ideal conditions of solitude and quiet other times admist pain, fear and illness- they must have been so brave not to stop half way, content with some minor achievemnt. Sometimes they went off course, they did evil, or briefly followed a misguided teaching, maybe even an imitaion Buddhist practise but they had developed the parami of sacca, truth to such an extent that they could not be fool themselves by overestimating any state. They soon saw that any unusual experience or calm state was no indication of insight. Especially they listened , studied and applied the teachings that they received during Buddha sasana after Buddha sasana. Ø Further than this the Dhamma itself is the foundation for insight. Thus hearing the Dhamma, for those developed ones, is an immediate condition for direct insight into namas and rupas and they are able to progress through the stages of insight so rapidly. A similar process can happen with us . We are not as wise as those at the Buddha’s time but we have an interest in the Dhamma . This is not accidental. It is because of past interest and past insight. When we study the Tipitika we may come to realize that every word was perfectly spoken by the Buddha. It was a condition for insight at the time he spoke it and it is a condition now. The words are only concepts but they point directly to dhammas, realities. They can and do, even now, lead to direct experience of realities. If there are not enough supporting conditions then insight at the level of satipatthana cannot yet occur. But by studying the Tipitaka, considering it, applying it and testing it, even at the very moment of study, then gradually the necessary supports will develop. If the conditions are fulfilled then insight must arise -no self or God who could stop it. Where we are on the path can be seen not by how calm we are, not by having unusual experiences in meditation but right at this moment. Now, do we believe in a world? A world of people, cars, computers, houses, our children, our life, or do we see that there are only different experiences of color, sound, taste touch, smell ,and mind objects. Maybe we can see how little we know yet. Ø The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we are able to judge the words of others. Later dhammas, realities, themselves become our teachers. Robert 402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 0:31pm Subject: stages of vipassana Dear theresa, part of this essay is a reply to you and I also included some paragraphs from an essay I will put on the web one day so it got a little long. Do we find ourselves trying to have awareness? It is natural – and at those moments of trying there are namas and rupas appearing – they can be studied. Only by this way can the distinction between satipatthana and imitation awareness be known. Without a firm theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and yet without some direct experience it is very difficult to gain firm theoretical understanding. It seems a catch –22 bind but we should expect it to be this way. The path is different from anything we have ever done . In many lives lobha has been our friend. In this life it benefited us in manifold ways. Like a good parent it forced us to study hard . . It helped us to find good jobs, learn new languages and make money. It found our girlfriends and wives . It was even a supporting condition for kusala kamma. (we were good because we wanted the results of goodness) But it cannot understand dhammas correctly as they really are. A pity really. The path would be so straight- forward. We could just follow a course, like at university, put in lots of effort, learn the theory, do all the practical steps and after 5 or 10 years get enlightened. We know it isn’t like that and that is why understanding of anatta must be firm. Then true satipatthana can arise. People, including myself, confuse right concentration and wrong concentration, they mix vipassana and samatha, they mistake concentration for sati and intellectual understanding for something deeper. They look for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may themselves be confused). The result is not a true insight into dhammas. When some people talk abut the direct experience of rise and fall, or the experience of anatta, or dukkha or anicca they mean an understanding of the way the 6 doorways alternate. Thus they carefully observe the change that is always taking place. As they become more calm and concentrated they can stay more or less in the present and so see this change much more than in normal life. Others take a much more conservative approach. They would say that this is still involved at the level of thinking. Even though there may not be thinking in words –they would say the processes are still not clearly seen. Thus for the latter the direct experience of anicca, dukkha and annatta is something far more profound. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. No one can slow this process down (or speed it up)- it happens continuously whether we are in the human realm, or apaya or animal or even Gods. But panna (wisdom), if it develops, can distinguish the characteristics and functions of dhammas and so penetrate their ephemeral nature. Thus, no way for “anyone” , no matter how calm, no matter how carefully they observe (even if they observe without the feeling of “I observe”) to directly experience this. And yet developed panna understands and experiences for a series or a few series of processes, the difference between the mind door and the sense door. It might sound disheartening, such a difficult task but it is better not to underestimate the profundity and pitfalls of the path. Otherwise we might be content with counterfeits that promise quick results. We need to understand that vipassana in its initial stages (when I say "initial" it may take many lives to get even this far) aims at eliminating wrong view, miccha ditthi- especially the idea of a self who can control anything. In reality every moment is conditioned. And conditions arise because of other conditions, not because of our wishes. If there is not clear understanding, at first in theory, of what panna (wisdom) and sati(awareness) are, there is a tendency to try to manufacture them. Then there is no understanding of the fleeting, conditioned nature of sankharakkhanda (the aggregate of mental formations). It is easy to confuse sati and samadhi. If we don’t understand the difference we will try and mix them – no real result. Sati at the level of satipatthana is associated with panna, wisdom. It directly experiences a characteristic of some reality but without the idea of a self making this happen. Sati is a conditioned, momentary reality that cannot be made to happen at will. If we try to concentrate on one particular reality we may be blind to sankharakkhanda (the aggregate of formations). Is it really sati or is it lobha concentrating on the body? I could give some instructions to my 8 year old son to watch sensations in his body, or tastes or whatever. No doubt he could follow but surely he would still have the deeprooted idea that "he" was doing it. When sati arise it arises with alobha(detachment) thus if we try very hard to have sati we are sure to be going wrong. What really stops true sati is miccha-ditthi (wrong view)- especially the refined miccha ditthi that thinks there is a self, that believes "we" can control. By clearing away wrong view the conditions are being laid for direct understanding. One of the things that helped me so much was realizing that any reality arising at the 6 doors could be an object for awareness. Then even when we are talking to people, or reading there are opportunities for sati to arise. Every day we see "people" but if there is awareness we can also understand color or seeing, directly. We still can talk and live normally but be developing insight at the same time. Metta - a type of samattha becomes easier too. Not necessary to sit dowm and chant 'may all beings be happY' etc. because while we are meeting with people we can study the characteristic of metta. When dosa (aversion)arises we can immediately be reminded to develop metta. If we are developing satipatthana then we are learning to distinguish reality from concept. Thus if someone behaves badly we can see it as merely a brief phenomenon - we won't feel so upset. In fact, no person , in the ultimate sense to be upset with. Then it is easier to develop metta. It is easy to confuse right concentration and wrong concentration, to mix vipassana and samatha, to mistake concentration for sati and intellectual understanding for something deeper. Some people look for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may themselves be confused). The result is not true insight into dhammas. If there is not clear understanding, at first in theory, of what panna and sati are there is a tendency to try to manufacture them. Then there is no understanding of the fleeting, conditioned nature of sankharakkahanda. I make this rather long reply as I want to emphasize that the development of vipassana needs knowledge of just what it was what the Buddha taught. Otherwise we might be making great progress- but in the wrong direction. The Buddha called those who were enlightened Bahusutta - one who has listened to the teachings alot. The Tipitaka is the collection of the Buddha's teaching - it is there to guide us. You think you have experienced stages of vipassana. I have found from bitter experience that we can easily think we know the characteristics of nama and rupa through direct understanding, and then later we listen more, discuss with khun Sujin and others like her, and realize that it is still mostly thinking – not yet the direct understanding. But this is the way it seems to go- we think “yes this is it, this is the way, now I see” Later we learn there was still clinging somewhere, it is not the way we imagined it would be. I find khun Sujins way of discussing the Dhamma very helpful– she explains that we must go gradually. We cannot rush to the stage of arising and passing away, advanced vipassana, without there having first been clear understanding of the distincton between nama and rupa – nama rupaparicheddha nana. And this first stage of vipassana cannot just come about by developing calm or samattha – it comes about because of developed wisdom. Wisdom that has gradually accumulated by studying the different characteristics of different realities that arise at the 6 doors. These realities are happening now – even when you are thinking you would like to have more awareness. If we are not aware now right now why assume there will be awareness at later times? If we have some idea of a “mind” that must be calm before there can be awareness then that is Sakkya ditthi , wrong view of self. There is no “mind” to calm it is all just passing moments. Khun Sujin explained that the moment of vipassana nana arises in a mind-door process. It is just like the Abhidhamma says. Proceses of cittas go so fast- seeing, hearing, but in between there were mind-door processes. Seeing experiences visible object and after the eye door process is finished there is a mind -door process of cittas which experience the visible object . Then there are processes which experience the concept of shape. When it is the right time , when the conditions have been accumulated then the difference is seen- panna does its function. And at that moment there is ekaggata cetasika , concentration, there is also sati. There is true calm because there is detachment of a high level- detachment from the idea of self and control. These conditions are so complex- no way to arrange for it to happen that first we bring samadhi then later we join it with sati and panna – they act according to their function and characteristic. The first vipassana nana arises which clearly knows the difference between rupa and nama. Then no more doubt. One does not need to go to a teacher to get confirmation. Indeed how could a teacher know? It is something that can be known only by ones own experience. I give these details because they can help us to realize that now we know very little, really. Have we experienced this stage yet? Is hardness appearing now. Hardness is a rupa but the experience of hardness is nama. That nama is a vipaka conditioned from kamma in the past. It arises for the briefest moment before falling away. If we try to focus on it it has long gone. The characteristic of nama and rupa are completely different- is the difference really understood or is it mixed up. Do we clearly distinguish the sensation (nama) from the rupa which conditioned it? Still some doubt? Is there an idea – hidden, but still present- that I can be aware, that sati can be controlled, bought up, manufactured? It is good to remember that we are not trying to have any experience. None at all. You might say “I just want to understand the present moment”. But how much desire is in that “want”. Even it is very slight it will block understanding. It is so hard to comprehend. There is chanda that arises with kusal acitta and thereis chanda that arise with akusla. What is the diffrence between the 2? What is the difference between chanda and lobha? When there is kusala, particularly of satippathhana there is detachmentt at that moment- then again the moments are short – hard to be sure it was correct. At times we might feel detached from objects but is this wisdom or is it merely boredom? Do we want to be sure – lobha. If we aren’t sure then we aren’t sure- it is the truth at that moment. It has to be that way, wanting it to be different is not going to help. It is a long path to really untangle the confusing thing we call life. We might succeed in convincing ourselves that we have plumbed the depths of insight even until the very day we die. But such success has no value in samsara. Conditions will inexorably carry on Can we respect the Buddha’s teaching by learning how to follow it correctly, confident that at some time in the future, even if an aeon from now, it will bring its supreme results? Robert 404 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 4:33pm Subject: new article coming Dear all, At we are preparing another article translated from the radio program broadcasted on the last anniversary of the king, about viriya (perseverance, effort), in a very broad if not too detailed a scope. Apparently someone from the court asked her to make a speech on the subject and specified the items they wanted to include so some parts of the speech is more of a classification of names and mumbers, still it makes many interesting points. My usual corrigendum for my last posting (I just got up when I wrote it): when I wrote (for example the existence of other planets which shook the astrological world a few years ago, when the western world, following there blind faith in the Bible, did not believe could exist since the earth was said to be the center of the universe and unique) I meant the 'astronomical' world and 'other planetary systems', of course. Sorry, Theresa, if I caused more confusion there!=^_^= Your friend in the dhamma, Amara 405 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:19am Subject: Re: About Concentration Hello Robert, << ----- Ø My understanding of Buddhism, and hence my whole perspective on life, is quite different from the early years. ... Gradually understanding grew. Now it seems strange to think of anything as controllable. ... This intellectual acceptance and understanding of anatta is only the beginning of the path - but once we truly see it then our impatience and desire for results fades. Because we know that only by the right conditions can understanding grow. ... Even when we begin to see things as they happen it is mostly thinking about them (a sort of thinking in the present moment) rather than direct experience. Do we accept this or do we want more? The right reflection helps to let go the idea of a self who is having understanding. Then there are more conditions for direct experience (of the true kind) But even right reflection can get in the way –if there is clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content because life is now better understood. -------- >> I agree.. :-)) You wrote : <> This can NOT happen when, in the moment of Mindfulness, we see things exactly as they are.. Buddha gave us guidelines to help us; when we use them, there is NO chance for clinging to whatever we see in the current moment of Mindfulness.. The guidelines are : the 7 factors of enlightenment, the 5 aggregates, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, etc.. Ex: When you see hot/cold (the Rupa aggregate; sorry, I don't know the pali term) with Mindfulness, there is the hot/cold (Insight) but there is No Self.. When you see the Beginning, the lasting part and the End of a physical pain (the Vedana aggregate and its 3 stages), there is vedana (Insight), but there is No Self.. When you see Concentration (a mental quality) in the current moment of Mindfulness, there is Concentration (Insight), but there is No Self.. When you see the citta (the third foundation of Mindfulness), you see Citta, but there is No Self.. etc. etc.. When this kind of Mindfulness and Insight continues continuously for sometimes, Anatta will be evident from moment to moment, and then the fear/Stress (Dukkha) is overwhelmed and oppressive ((this is another Insight)).. When this Insight arises, Mindfulness drives, Insight rises and falls, and Upekkha naturally kicks in.. Everything goes at an extreme fast rate.. When it's fast, "No Self" is apparent, and changes are the truths (the current fact), in each moment of Mindfulness.. At this Insight level, "No Self", "Impermanence" or "Dukkha" is the object of Mindfulness.. No reasoning.. No reflection.. No thinking.. "No Self" *is*, from moment to moment, at a high rate.. << One can stop at that level , content because life is now better understood. >> Here is what I heard from my initial teacher, Venerable Khippapanno (Kim-Trieu).. Once a meditator crosses over to Magga/Phala, he/she will never ever stop practicing.. This is why Buddha said that Ariyas are his true followers/disciples (sorry, I forgot the term).. This is why Ariyas have a countable number of lifetimes/rebirths.. Mindfulness becomes part of life.. Insight goes on.. Ariyas do not make the mistakes like we, humans, do, because Mindfulness is Ariyas' Sila.. Because they are continuously mindful, they will not make mistakes, and so, their Silas are well-kept.. Continuous Mindfulness are the "common trait" (wording?) of Ariyas.. One Venerable told me a conversation between a teacher and a student.. T: After you keep yourself busy for some time and then you stop, what happens to your mind ? What do you see then ? S: It settles immediate.. It watches the breath.. T: When you intentionally want to think instead of being mindful, what happens to your mind right after you stop thinking ? What do you see then ? S: It settles immediate.. It watches the breath.. T: Yes, your mind goes back to the breath and the body just like a chicken goes back to its coop each night.. The above conversation is a welcome greeting of a teacher to a student, who successfully entered Sotapanna.. The mind going back to the breath/the body naturally is the sign that Mindfulness goes on "naturally in the background", even when the new Ariya does not exert much effort.. << ----- Now some comments on Dhamma. Some of this I have said before so please excuse the repetition. -------- >> Repitition is good.. That's our needed reminder to each other.. << ----- Ø Whatever we are doing at any moment there are only namas and rupas arising and passing away – as we learn from the Tipitaka. -------- >> We can experience this arising and passing away continuously during our normal life.. When we walk around, we see : "nama,rupa,nama,rupa, etc." but there is nothing called "self" as one static entity.. << ----- It is true that much of our lives are spent lost in stories about life. Concepts ... If they are not real then why do we think of them? Why do two people looking in the same direction see the same object? -------- >> Until we reach Arahantship, we will experience "concepts" and live with them as if they are real.. Since we still have "self" in our view, we try to keep Mindfulness continuous as much as possible, and then, we will have moments of Mindfulness and Insight so that we can see "No Self".. Now you see (self), now you don't (no self).. We will weave in and out of the two views, self and no-self, throughout the day.. With more practice and experience, the time we live with "No Self" will increase gradually.. << ----- Ø ...When we are thinking about something there are processes of thinking arising and passing away rapidly that have a concept as object. The concept is not real ... but the thinking processes are nama they are actually different cittas and cetasikas doing their intricate work conditioned by different paccaya (conditions) – no self at all. These cittas and cetasikas are nama –they are dhammas and can be objects for sati. Thus there is really no moment that is excluded as a potential object for the development of satipatthana. This doesn't mean that we can or should know each moment. It is beyond control, conditions have their own agendas and act entirely according to their function and characteristic. -------- >> It is very helpful to me that you put the English words next to the Pali terms.. My cheatsheet is growing !!!.. hehehehe.. (( I have a cheatsheet placed next to my monitor for Buddhist terms.. )) To help me with the task of being mindful of Citta and Cetasikas, my teacher told me : "Whatever you have in the current moment, note it.. Simply note it.. Our feelings are Like or Dislike, comfortable or uncomfortable.. We just note them.." (( My teacher uses the word "Note" for "be mindful" or "aware"; "Like" and "comfortable" for Lobha; "Dislike" and "uncomfortable" for Dosa.. )) As you said, we can not see all mental activities.. However, we can work with whatever we have or can see with Mindfulness.. Buddha gave us Citta and Cetasikas as two guidelines; and so, we can eventually see very clearly two seperate entities (terms?) working together.. Meaning, there is No "one mind" as "I", but there is Citta (knowing at the sense door) and Cetasika (emotions/concepts/thoughts in regard to the objects at the sense door).. This is "No Self" at another level of Insight.. << ----- Ø No moment is excluded as a potential object for insight. Thus even when we are reading say a novel there are still moments when sati can arise and directly experience a reality as it is: as merely as dhamma . If it is truly a moment of sati at the level of satipathhana then there is no "me" having this sati. No me making it happen, no subtle idea of control, of "bringing" sati up. -------- >> Good Mindfulness !! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! When you have Sati going continuously like that, you see "no Self" continuously, and you are "detached" in the moment Mindfulness, from moment to moment.. :-)) << ----- Ø ... Sometimes people...become enlightened just while listening to a Dhamma talk from the Buddha or one f his followers ... because they have fulfilled the parami and developed the necessary supporting conditions over many aeons....they developed understanding and other wholesome qualities whenever the opportunity arose, while working, while thinking, while playing. ... they must have been so brave not to stop half way, content with some minor achievemnt. ... Especially they listened , studied and applied the teachings that they received during Buddha sasana after Buddha sasana. -------- >> I believe you describe a special group of people : the Ariyas.. :-)) When we meet them, we appreciate their special personality.. :-)) You wrote : << they developed understanding and other wholesome qualities whenever the opportunity arose, while working, while thinking, while playing. >> Continuous Mindfulness "while working, while thinking, while playing" is practicing General Meditation.. This is possible for us to do so in this very lifetime.. May we try not to concern ourselves with any concept, even the concept of "no self".. May we continuously be in a mindful state so that Mindfulness can eventually go at a high rate for us to see (insight) as much as we can of things happening in the current moment.. << ----- Ø Further than this the Dhamma itself is the foundation for insight. Thus hearing the Dhamma, for those developed ones, is an immediate condition for direct insight into namas and rupas and they are able to progress through the stages of insight so rapidly. -------- >> This is true.. I heard teachers mentioned that there are three types of meditators, but I can only recall two : meditators by Faith, and meditators by Wisdom.. Buddha was a meditator by wisdom.. He would not rely on Faith but tested everything out himself.. A small hint from teachers will help some fast-walking wisdom meditators to gain many level of Insights, because they are born with less attachment than others.. << ----- ... by studying the Tipitaka, considering it, applying it and testing it, even at the very moment of study, then gradually the necessary supports will develop. -------- >> APPLYING and TESTING are very very important.. Have you thought that Testing Buddha's teaching on us will never harm us, because we ("Self") is only an illusion ??.. We can't harm an illusion.. hehehe.. Ah, but if we are sure that we HAVE a "Self" to care for, we now want to protect to go down to lower realms in the next rebirths or we want to add more paramitta (terms? spelling?) for a better rebirths next time around.. hehehe.. I guess, for "Self-less" or whatever it is, the only harm could be is that we have a stronger image of "self".. Other than that, I can't see no harm in Mindfulness, in Sitting, in Walking, in Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) << ----- Where we are on the path can be seen not by how calm we are, not by having unusual experiences in meditation but right at this moment. ... Maybe we can see how little we know yet. ------- >> Bingo !!.. It's wonderful to see everything as things, and there are many things to see and know.. hehehehe.. By the way, we can achieve the same view (term?) when we have see everything happening in the mind as things, and there are many things to see and know there, too.. Right there, Piti arises in General Meditation.. :-)) << ----- Ø The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we are able to judge the words of others. Later dhammas, realities, themselves become our teachers. ------- >> Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Did Buddha say that Dhamma is our teacher ?? :-)) A mindful person lives like everybody else, but each living moment gives him/her Dhamma to learn from.. All of us, non-Arahants, are learners, because we still learn from Dhamma (our body and mind).. hehehe.. You wrote : << The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we are able to judge the words of others. >> The more Insight we gain, the more understanding (empathy ??) and patience we have for others, and the more Metta we pass to others.. Instead of judging, we pass Metta and do as much Kurana as we can.. We let go (forget?) whatever deeds we did for the benefits of others.. We feel happy that things work out for others, for us, for everyone.. We become cheerful and innocent like children, because we have less fear and less worries.. Such blessing !! Theresa. 406 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:32am Subject: Level of Insights (was : stages of vipassana ) Hello Robert, I collected the names of the Insight levels from the Vietnamese translation of the book, "Practical Insight Meditation", by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw of Myanmar.. (1) Namarupa pariccheda nana (2) Paccaya pariggaha nana (3) Sammasana nana (4) Udayabbaya nana (5) Bhanga nana (6) Bhaya nana (7) Adinava nana (8) Nibbida nana (9) Muncitukamyata nana (10) Patisankha nana (11) Sankharaupekkha nana (*) Paccavekkhana nana ====== (12) Gotrabhu nana (13) Magga nana and Phala nana ====== When we practice Vipassana, Insight develops in that order.. I don't have the English translation for the above Pali terms.. If you want me translate the Vietnamese explanations to English, I will try my best.. I forwarn that my translation is the worst one could imagine.. hehehe... I don't know any pali terms I retyped above and have not memorized them yet.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 407 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:50am Subject: sati Dear Theresa, You wrote that insight, panna, changes, but that mindfulness doesn’t develop or change: “Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati, practice it, and will practice the same thing as long as we continue walking the Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve" or "change" into anything more wonderful than it, Sati.. Mindfulness.. Pure Awareness..” Yes, in one way this is true – the reason we call it sati is because it has special characteristics that make it different from other dhammas. Indeed that is the reason that any dhamma can be classified according to its characteristics and functions. And I am sure you are right that the change in panna, as it deepens, is more radical and noticeable than sati. However, I might have misunderstood but it seemed from the context of your writing that you think each moment of sati is exactly the same as the last and will be exactly the same in the future. Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss further. It is an area that is rather difficult and I am just offering some reflections. Samma-sati, right awareness, is one of the factors of the eightfold path. It is mindful of the object – either a nama or a rupa. At the same time samma –samadhi, right concentration, does its work of focusing on the object and samma-sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for understanding is also present. The Atthasalini, commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that usually while developing the path the other path factors of right livelihood, right action and right speech are not present or at most one of them is present. But that at the moment of experiencing nibbana all factors are present. I remember reading that as samma-ditthi, panna, insight develops also samma-samadhi develops and at the brief moment when enlightenment occurs samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of the first stage of jhana; a major development. Accordingly, it seems likely that sati and the other factors undergo some degree of development too, although probably not as noticeably as samma-samadhi and samma-ditthi. We know that ekkaggata cetasika, (samadhi)concentration arises together with kusala or akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome consciousness) It is affected , conditioned by the other cetasikas and by the citta that arises at the same time, therefore there must be some difference between the ekkagata cetasikas. Even sanna cetasika, perception, which arises with all cittas is not always exactly the same. The Atthasalini explains that the strength of its qualities depend on whether the citta it is associated with are associated with panna and also depend on the strength of samadhi at different moments. Perhaps the same applies to sati. And when we consider the enormously complex interplay of conditions that make up each moment it must be true that not even the moments that just passed are exactly the same as the moments that are appearing now. I am sure someone on the group can add more on this point. Thank you again for all your comments Theresa, which surely condition energy to arise. It probably seems that I am focussing on points where we differ but this is partly because of other commitments. I just don't have the time to go over all your points, so focus on just a few. There are certainly many areas where I really agree with you and appreciate your phrasing. Especially I admire that you appreciate the importance of understanding the present moment as anatta - it really is the heart of the Dhamma. Robert 408 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 2:41am Subject: Re: stages of vipassana Hello Robert, << ----- Do we find ourselves trying to have awareness? It is natural – -------- >> There are meditators, who can see two separate entities : citta/cetaseka on one side and Mindfulness on the other.. I vaguely recall that one of my teachers or some books by Venerable Mahasi or Venerable U Pandita mentioned about this fact.. Think of the surprise when a novice meditator suddenly finds out that there are two of them in one of them.. hehehe.. Teachers said that seeing one or two entities does not make any difference in the task of walking the Path, and all of us will arrive at Magga/Phala/Nibbana the same way.. The benefit of seeing two separate entities is that the person has an extra to dissect his/her mind, and he/she can find their way through the jungle of their mind with few hints from teachers and/or teaching.. << ----- ... at those moments of trying there are namas and rupas appearing – they can be studied. Only by this way can the distinction between satipatthana and imitation awareness be known. Without a firm theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and yet without some direct experience it is very difficult to gain firm theoretical understanding. -------- >> There are individuals who gain Insight before learning or hearing about it from books, teachers or other people.. I have met three Vipassana students with such luck; they have special personality (kindness, patience, lesser greed, calm, less likely to loose temper, and prefers to be alone).. For example: the teacher (T) shows a student (S) how to sit, cross legs, close eyes and observe the breath on time, and how to walk and observe the step on time.. Then, T gives the length of time of meditation session.. S knows nothing about Buddhism or Vipassana, and knows only what T just taught.. S practices exactly as told.. When S comes back to see the teacher, S uses layman terms to explain what has happened during the sitting and walking sessions.. T would say : "The Buddhist term for what you just described is .. T gives some more descriptions, and S compares them with S's experience.. Everything matches perfectly.. :-)) << ----- ... They look for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may themselves be confused). The result is not a true insight into dhammas. -------- >> "Looking for calmness" "looking for strange experiences" "looking for the praise of their teachers" These are good things to watch out for.. They are all expectations, thus greed (lobha).. Lobha is a hindrance.. << ----- When some people talk abut the direct experience of rise and fall, or the experience of anatta, or dukkha or anicca they mean annderstanding of the way the 6 doorways alternate. Thus they carefully observe the change that is always taking place. As they become more calm and concentrated they can stay more or less in the present and so see this change much more than in normal life. ------- >> Thank you, Robert, for describing so well.. For me, I refer to what you described above as, (1) seeing Consciousness, and (2) seeing the mind switches Consciousness.. You mentioned "changes"... Changes is crucial.. We must see changes, continuous changes.. When Changes/Impermanence is continuous, "no Self" is evident and "detachment" (Upekkha) arises in the mindful moment.. Right Effort and Right View ask for <>.. Sadhu! You wrote : << As they become more calm and concentrated they can stay more or less in the present and so see this change much more than in normal life.>> This is true.. The calmness you mentioned here is NOT the calmness when we are in Jhana.. The calmness achieved with Vipassana is related to the "balanced mind" (Upekkha of the Bojjangha; even- mindedness, terms??).. We can experience "this Calmness" while the body suffers severe pain, or the the mind is chaotic with rambling thoughts moving through.. When this happens, Mindfulness goes on continuously.. :-)) << ----- Others take a much more conservative approach. They would say that this is still involved at the level of thinking. Even though there may not be thinking in words –they would say the processes are still not clearly seen. Thus for the latter the direct experience of anicca, dukkha and annatta is something far more profound. -------- >> When Mindfulness keeps up with the six sense doors, there is "no self" and no attachment.. This experience is known only by the meditator and no one else, and it is Mindfulness which gives him/her a constant awareness of the changes, from moment to moment.. The truth is the truth, like birth, aging, sickness and death.. If others to doubt the experience of the meditator of such mental qualities, we know it's only doubt or fear or worries.. You mentioned phrases like "still involved at the level of thinking" or "the processes are still not clearly seen".. How do others know what the meditator is experiencing from moment to moment ??.. Buddha gave all of us the simple tool -- Mindfulness; this is like the knife of a surgeon.. After a surgeon cuts open a body, internal organs and everything else will be apparent.. Likewise, when Mindfulness cuts through "self", its many formation will be apparent.. For other people, who are not the surgeon for the meditator's mind and, worse, were not there to experience the meditator's experience, to doubt the meditator's experience, the meditator should hold the Noble Silence and keep Mindfulness going.. I guess the difference in views/opinions arises because some appreciates the gradual growth Insight, and some only accepts the full-grown Insight and Nibbana and rejects anything else in between.. As I heard and understand, Buddha's Dhamma is the teaching, which must be realized by the individual.. When we suffer, we know we suffer.. When the suffer ends, we know the suffer ends.. There is no need for anyone to explain or approve for this kind of direct experience.. Buddha taught us THE TRUTHS.. What is there to ask or doubt ??.. TRUTHS ARE TRUTHS, and Truths never changes regardless of situations, conditions, time, individuals, etc.. << ----- But panna (wisdom), if it develops, can distinguish the characteristics and functions of dhammas and so penetrate their ephemeral nature. ... And yet developed panna understands and experiences for a series or a few series of processes, the difference between the mind door and the sense door. It might sound disheartening, such a difficult task but it is better not to underestimate the profundity and pitfalls of the path. Otherwise we might be content with counterfeits that promise quick results. -------- >> Buddha taught us to be mindful, taught us the Noble Path (which is the Ariya's mental qualities), and reminded us that Dhamma (his teaching, our body/mind) are our teachers.. Dhamma is whatever we have through Mindfulness.. As you reminded us many times, anything we see with Mindfulness and even a mindful moment comes about because of Conditions (Kamma).. Therefore, whatever we can see in the current moment of Mindfulness is what we have, and nothing more.. Buddha taught us the way to turn that Kamma/Sankhara into Dhamma with Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. If we only see one series of processes, so be it.. If we see few series of processes, so be it.. Whatever mind and body we have, that's what we walk the Noble Path with.. If one is intelligent and has a fast mind, he/she deals with his/her own sets of Kammas and walks the Noble Path with that.. If one has an average intelligence and a slower mind, he/she deals with his/her own sets of kammas and walks the Noble Path with that.. The end result, Magga/Phala/Nibbana, (ie, the third Noble Truth) is the product or the result of the Noble Path (the fourth Noble Truth).. The speed of our mind (our intelligence) is Dukkha and has its own set of Source of Dukkha.. A person, who develops magical powers with his/her better intelligence (kamma? terms?), walks the same Noble Path like all of us and will reach the same Magga/Phala/Nibbana like all of us.. The "profundity and pitfalls of the path" and the "content with counterfeits that promise quick results" are the claws of Dosa and Lobha.. Because we have Faith in Buddha and His teaching, we meditate as taught, and we observe our mind and body as taught, without expecting or fearing anything.. Because we have Faith in Buddha and His teaching, we accept that Mindfulness is a good tool, Insight will show us the way, the Noble Path is the of-course course, and Magga/Phala/Nibbana is the of-course end-result.. If we practice exactly as Buddha taught and we have Faith in Him, what is there for us to worry about the end result or wrong Path or wrong technique ?? << ----- If there is not clear understanding, at first in theory, of what panna (wisdom) and sati(awareness) are, there is a tendency to try to manufacture them. -------- >> If teachers told us to follow the breath, notice the sensations, be aware of our bodily movements, and so on so forth, we should do just that.. Insight arises from there, from direct experience by practicing the little tasks of Mindfulness.. We "manufacture experience" if and only if we have some expectation to be fulfilled.. If we have no expectation or if we don't know what to expect, we will not look for any kind of experience.. When we have no expectation, we only know what we experience in the current moment with Mindfulness and nothing more than that.. In this case, it's impossible for us to manufacture things we have never heard of.. << ----- Sati at the level of satipatthana is associated with panna, wisdom. ... Sati is a conditioned, momentary reality that cannot be made to happen at will. If we try to concentrate on one particular reality we may be blind to sankharakkhanda (the aggregate of formations). Is it really sati or is it lobha concentrating on the body? I could give some instructions to my 8 year old son to watch sensations in his body, or tastes or whatever. No doubt he could follow but surely he would still have the deeprooted idea that "he" was doing it. -------- >> Wonderful description !! If your son has a deeprooted idea that "he" was watching his sensations, he has "self" but it is all right.. Reason ??.. because Insight is developed in strike.. Whenever he has Insight at some level, he will understand "selfless" with that level of understanding.. As long as he gains Insight, he is walking the Noble Path at different level, and for this, we should cheer him on.. Even when he is a novice with "I" apparent everywhere, we should cheer him on and encourage him to sit and live with that "self" until Insight comes in according to his own kammas.. You never know, but your 8- year old son might experience Aggregate, one by one, and then explain each one of them to you with his kid terminology.. :-)) << ----- When sati arise it arises with alobha(detachment) thus if we try very hard to have sati we are sure to be going wrong. -------- >> This can only happens if and only if Concentration is missing.. When there is Sati and Concentration, and we do exactly as taught, Insight will be developed.. When Insight is present, there is No Detachment.. In Vipassana, as I learned, Sati is pure awareness.. Just know.. What is there to push for.. We simply aware.. Aware, Aware, Aware... Q: Aware of what ??.. A: Whatever our mind gives to us, whatever is most prominent to us, then we aware of that.. << ------ One of the things that helped me so much was realizing that any reality arising at the 6 doors could be an object for awareness. Then even when we are talking to people, or reading there are opportunities for sati to arise. Every day we see "people" but if there is awareness we can also understand color or seeing, directly. We still can talk and live normally but be developing insight at the same time. Metta - a type of samattha becomes easier too. Not necessary to sit dowm and chant 'may all beings be happY' etc. because while we are meeting with people we can study the characteristic of metta. When dosa (aversion)arises we can immediately be reminded to develop metta. If we are developing satipatthana then we are learning to distinguish reality from concept. Thus if someone behaves badly we can see it as merely a brief phenomenon - we won't feel so upset. In fact, no person , in the ultimate sense to be upset with. Then it is easier to develop metta. --------- >> Wonderful speech !! You speak my mind.. That's how we can LIVE WITH MEDITATION.. That's how Mindfulness and Buddha's Dhamma give us the shelter of the active Noble Path while we live.. Eventually, Living is meditating.. Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! << ----- I find khun Sujins way of discussing the Dhamma very helpful– she explains that we must go gradually. We cannot rush to the stage of arising and passing away, advanced vipassana, without there having first been clear understanding of the distincton between nama and rupa – nama rupaparicheddha nana. -------- >> I heard or read somewhere that after a person reaches Magga/Phala as a Sotapanna, he/she will see body and mind separately, and that's why the number of rebirths is reduced to seven.. The first thing Sotapannas experience when they sit down to meditation is the nama rupaparicheddha nana, and this never fails.. << ----- There is no "mind" to calm it is all just passing moments. -------- >> Calmness is the goal of Vipassana meditation.. As I recall, teachers don't teach students to find calmness.. I have heard teachers asking students to follow the breath, the sensations, the thoughts (without making distinctions to them), and none of these means calmness.. << ----- ...Khun Sujin explained that the moment of vipassana nana arises in a mind-door process. It is just like the Abhidhamma says. Proceses of cittas go so fast-seeing, hearing, but in between there were mind-door processes. Seeing experiences visible object and after the eye door process is finished there is a mind -door process of cittas which experience the visible object. Then there are processes which experience the concept of shape. When it is the right time , when the conditions have been accumulated then the difference is seen- panna does its function. And at that moment there is ekaggata cetasika , concentration, there is also sati. There is true calm because there is detachment of a high level- detachment from the idea of self and control. These conditions are so complex- no way to arrange for it to happen ... they act according to their function and characteristic. The first vipassana nana arises which clearly knows the difference between rupa and nama. Then no more doubt. -------- >> I agree fully.. Your description is very vivid.. That's the way things happen.. You wrote : <> I would like to add that there is no time to arrange either.. Blip.. gone.. blip.. gone.. blip.. gone.. Therefore, no way and no time to arrange, but experience/insight happens according to kammas.. :-)) << ----- Have we experienced this stage yet? Is hardness appearing now. Hardness is a rupa but the experience of hardness is nama. That nama is a vipaka conditioned from kamma in the past. It arises for the briefest moment before falling away. If we try to focus on it it has long gone. The characteristic of nama and rupa are completely different- is the difference really understood or is it mixed up. Do we clearly distinguish the sensation (nama) from the rupa which conditioned it? Still some doubt? Is there an idea – hidden, but still present- that I can be aware, that sati can be controlled, bought up, manufactured? -------- >> Yup, that's Buddha's teaching.. And that's all to it.. :-)) Have you noticed that you made no reference to "Self" in the right- above paragraph ??.. When we can keep that up, Insight is with us, and there is "no self" during that time... :-)) << ----- It is good to remember that we are not trying to have any experience. None at all..."want"... comprehend... What is the difference ?.. hard to be sure it was correct. ... might feel detached.. is this wisdom or is it merely boredom? ... Do we want to be sure – lobha. -------- >> You named a lot of "thoughts", which we could be mindful of.. Wonderful reminders !!.. :-)) << ----- If we aren't sure then we aren't sure- it is the truth at that moment. It has to be that way, wanting it to be different is not going to help. -------- >> << wanting it to be different is not going to help >> is a very good reminder for us.. Patience and Mindfulness.. That should do it.. :-)) << ------ It is a long path to really untangle the confusing thing we call life. We might succeed in convincing ourselves that we have plumbed the depths of insight even until the very day we die. But such success has no value in samsara. Conditions will inexorably carry on Can we respect the Buddha's teaching by learning how to follow it correctly, confident that at some time in the future, even if an aeon from now, it will bring its supreme results? --------- >> Aaaaah, just walk.. just be mindful.. Samsara.. right or wrong insight.. depth of insight.. supreme results.. These things take longer than one mindfulness to figure out... So, let us walk.. let us be mindful.. The rest is not important.. With metta, Theresa. 409 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 7:32am Subject: Re: sati Hello Robert, I think you and I have the same understanding and the same practice, but we might misunderstand because of the difference in terminology.. I am still learning very slowly the Buddhist terms, and keeps forgetting them left and right.. << ----- You wrote that insight, panna, changes, but that mindfulness doesn't develop or change: > "Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati, > practice it, and will practice the same thing as long as we > continue walking the Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve" > or "change" into anything more wonderful than it, Sati.. > Mindfulness.. Pure Awareness.." Yes, in one way this is true – the reason we call it sati is because it has special characteristics that make it different from other dhammas. Indeed that is the reason that any dhamma can be classified according to its characteristics and functions. And I am sure you are right that the change in panna, as it deepens, is more radical and noticeable than sati. However, I might have misunderstood but it seemed from the context of your writing that you think each moment of sati is exactly the same as the last and will be exactly the same in the future. Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss further. It is an area that is rather difficult and I am just offering some reflections. -------- >> Q: Is true that each moment of sati is exactly the same as the last and will be exactly the same in the future ?? A: No, it is not.. If we consider the analogy of taking pictures.. Sati is the click of a button so that the camera can snap a picture.. The click of the button is always the click (sati), and nothing more.. How clear or blurry the picture is (Concentration), or what picture we have with each clicks (Insight/Mindfulness) changes over time.. My initial teacher, Venerable Khippapanno (Kim-Trieu), taught me the Buddhist term in Vietnamese, "Nie^.m", for the word "Mindfulness".. He told me that this same word refers to different things by "different Buddhist practices" (I'm not sure if this is what he refers to)).. He also said that "Nie^.m" for Therevadan meditation is "pure awareness".. Other Buddhist group might use the same term to refer to repeating (praying) Buddha's name, or praying with suttas, etc.. The only meaning of "Nie^.m" or Mindfulness or Sati I know is "pure awareness", like a click of the camera, and that is all to it.. However, the value of Sati, when it is applied as Bojjangha-Sati, is to help balance the mind, ie, to balance the two groups of Bojjhanga.. One group is Insight, Effort and Piti.. The other group is Concentration, Calmness and Upekkha.. When Mindfulness flows continuously, these two groups are in balance, and thus, we have a balanced mind.. By the way, I learn (?) Buddhism by practicing (meditating).. What I practice is Vipassana.. My teacher gave me the tummy as the initial point of focus and taught me what he learned from Venerable Mahasi of Myanmar.. That's all I know, and nothing more.. :-)) << Samma-sati, right awareness, is one of the factors of the eightfold path. >> Yes, it is.. << It is mindful of the object – either a nama or a rupa. >> All we have is Nama and Rupa and nothing more.. Buddha gave us the 5 aggregates, which is a different of dividing Nama-Rupa.. He gave us the 4 foundations of MIndfulness, which is another way of looking at Nama-Rupa.. Sati observes whatever is available and prominent in the current moment.. << At the same time samma–samadhi, right concentration, does its work of focusing on the object and samma-sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object >> I understand the word "Concentration", which is the ability to hold our attention on ONE OBJECT FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.. << ... samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. >> Insight is seeing and "understands".. << Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for understanding is also present. >> I don't know the term Vayama.. I know the term "Viriya".. In my previous posts, I shared how I exert Right Effort, and how it brings immediate or quick results (?).. << ----- The Atthasalini, commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that usually while developing the path the other path factors of right livelihood, right action and right speech are not present or at most one of them is present. But that at the moment of experiencing nibbana all factors are present. -------- >> All factors must be present for the Noble Path to be the Noble Path.. Talking in terms of CONDITIONS, the Noble Path (the 4th Noble Truth) is the CAUSE for Nibbana (the 3rd Noble Truth); and the second Noble Truth is the Cause of the first Noble Truth.. My teacher explained in layman terms something like this : "When we are mindful and have Insight, we don't do things wrong, we don't do wrong livelihood.. With Insight, we do things right.. To help meditators keep Right Speech, we keep Noble Silence during meditation retreat.. When we have Silence, we don't speak wrongly.. RIGHT IN THE MOMENT when we sit in meditation, we meditate and so, we don't speak, we don't act wrong, and we don't work with the wrong job.. The act of meditating helps us keep Sila, thus, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, very well.." << ----- I remember reading that as samma-ditthi, panna, insight develops also samma-samadhi develops and at the brief moment when enlightenment occurs samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of the first stage of jhana; a major development. Accordingly, it seems likely that sati and the other factors undergo some degree of development too, although probably not as noticeably as samma-samadhi and samma-ditthi. -------- >> The development, the Noble Path, is like this : Sila --> Concentration --> Insight Sati is one factor which must be present all the time, and helps steady the mind and balance all other factors of enlightenment.. <>; this comparison is very new to me.. All I know is that, when all 7 factors of enlightenment arise at the same, all present, all in balanced of each other, the meditator is ready to use Lakkhana as the guide and Nibbana as the Object, and the rest is history.. hehehehe.. Sati is like the pivot for the two sides of the scale, and it keeps things together and balanced with each other.. Speaking in terms of the 7 factors of enlightenment, Sati stands alone, while the other 6 factors work together as two groups.. << ----- We know that ekkaggata cetasika, (samadhi)concentration arises together with kusala or akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome consciousness) It is affected , conditioned by the other cetasikas and by the citta that arises at the same time, therefore there must be some difference between the ekkagata cetasikas. Even sanna cetasika, perception, which arises with all cittas is not always exactly the same. The Atthasalini explains that the strength of its qualities depend on whether the citta it is associated with are associated with panna and also depend on the strength of samadhi at different moments. Perhaps the same applies to sati. -------- >> You use a lot of terms, which I don't know.. :-)) I shared with you in the previous posts, how Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight work together, IN TERMS OF PRACTICE.. My initial teacher said that (something like) : "Before we know how to combine the 7 factors of enlightenment, we must be able to have (or identify ?) each factor separately.. Whenever each factor can arise easily, we then learn how to combine them.. The way to combine and balance them is to having Mindfulness continuously.." << ----- And when we consider the enormously complex interplay of conditions that make up each moment it must be true that not even the moments that just passed are exactly the same as the moments that are appearing now. -------- >> I guess you are referring to Insight and Concentration.. Insight, -- which is what we see or experience with Mindfulness, -- changes rapidly from moment to moment.. Insight SEES (or understands) that << not even the moments that just passed are exactly the same as the moments that are appearing now. >> Concentration, -- which is the ability to seize (or grab) each object of Mindfulness with precision, on time, not sooner, not later, exactly on time, -- may change from moment to moment.. Mindfulness continues steadily.. Click.. Click.. Click.. Click.. like snaping picture by pushing on the button of the camera.. With metta, Theresa. 410 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 9:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: stages of vipassana Dear Theresa, I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few points. I guess take a conservative approach to the Dhamma these days. It wasn’t always like that – I was quite happy to believe the words of any teacher. Now I find that the Tipitaka: the vinaya, the suttanta and the Abhidhamma to be the most helpful guide. Many people claim to be sotapanna or higher – this is easy to say – but I am more interested in hearing and learning about the characteristic and function of realities that are appearing at this moment. From learning about the subtle distinction and seeing myself these distinctions little by little I have learned just how tricky and refined lobha, craving can be. I have learned from direct study of realities that lobha can come with wrong view or without and that it is not so easy to comprehend. Perhaps you think I should not be skeptical of the claims of others who think they have had deep insight but I assure you I try to be more skeptical of my own knowledge. I realize more and more that I know very little indeed. I have seen for myself that I can truly believe that I know something clearly when in fact it was merely attachment not understanding. Whenever I think I am really understanding something deeply I conclude that this is just conceit arising. Every week or so, two or three Mormons come to visit me at my office in Japan. Not always the same ones; they stay for two years before going home. They like visiting me because it is one of the few chances they get to speak English – sort of a rest- but it still counts as missionary activity. The ones who know me well don’t try too hard to convert me. We discuss Buddhism and christianity and other topics and try to understand each others thinking . Everyone has a profitable time. The new, keen ones almost invariably- once we get on the topic of how we can know whether this or that belief is the truth – state that they have had an experience where any doubts they had about God and Mormonism been the true path dissolve. When I inquire how they know this they say that it is by practicing, praying and living the right way. This answer comes in the form of a feeling of joy and clarity of mind- that they say is unmistakable and anyone who has it will know for themselves. They say that if I would study more with them and practice in this way this will happen to me. In some ways it is appealing. They are extremely upright young men. Their complexions glow and they are clearly happy, confident and content. Compared to my badly shaven, weather-beaten visage they look angelic. The very best ones have a way of speech that is calm, refined and polite, their gaze gentle yet firm. Their beliefs and lifestyles seem to fit well with them. Why do I remain unswayed? Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier above. I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas and Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now. Doing special practices to try to have some experiences is not where my interest lies. I don’t mind much whether I have feelings of clarity or joy. I am more concerned in learning about the subtlety of moha and whether there is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger, jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the different feelings that arise at the same time – this is my interest. At this moment, there is seeing contacting the rupa which is visible object. I used to think this was a rather boring thing to study – “it is there every moment my eyes are open what could I learn from such a mundane thing?” But this has become most interesting too. Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or that they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta; or that they had satori while mediating at the zen temple near my city; or they know that God exists; or that they are scientists and that after death everything ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I reply in much the same way. I mentally and verbally wish them well. I explain what I have understood from studying the Tipitika, I talk about how lobha, attachment can attach to anything and how it distorts our vision. I explain that when it is associated with ditthi (view)it makes us believe that our way is right. I explain that I must admit to no special deep insight. All I can say is that more and more the words contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it appears and thus I continue on learning how to study the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way. Robert 411 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 1:14pm Subject: Re: stages of vipassana Hello Robert, I guess our discussion has carried a lot of metta.. Each has tried to share what we know for the benefits of the other.. To me, this is the important task of dhamma friends.. Whether or not what we practice or believe is true and correct to us or everyone else is not important.. The importance, as I understand, is that each of us finds a way to know and understand ourselves, from moment to moment.. > I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few points. Actually, I have not disagreed to your views.. I might share here and there things I know (or I think I know), but that does not mean that I disagree with you.. :-)) << ----- ...I assure you I try to be more skeptical of my own knowledge... -------- >> This is a very healthy attitude.. I hope that you will, one day, not even be skeptical of your own knowledge, but you simply know yourself from moment to moment.. There is no need for a final conclusion on "Self".. :-)) > Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier above. > I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas and > Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now. You have a solid foundation.. :-)) > ... I am more concerned in > learning about the subtlety of moha and whether there > is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger, > jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the different > feelings that arise at the same time – this is my > interest. This is my daily practice, too.. The simple awareness of things happening.. > Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or that > they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta; or > that they had satori while mediating at the zen temple > near my city; or they know that God exists; or that > they are scientists and that after death everything > ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I > reply in much the same way. I mentally and verbally > wish them well. The enlightenment of Buddha and Arahants does not help us.. Our own enlightenment is our salvation.. :-)) The wish to share the "how-to" is metta.. The progress of an individual is his/her own benefits and depends on his/her own kammas.. > All I can say is that more and more the words > contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The > Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it > appears and thus I continue on learning how to study > the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way. I guess we have a common belief that each of us will benefit most from having Continuous Mindfulness and learning from the current moments.. When students report their progress, teachers limit the progress to things occur most often during practice and happened in the last 24 hours only.. I still have "Self" and I still have a lot to learn.. :-)) Let us be mindful and walk further on the Noble Path.. With metta, Theresa. 412 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 1:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: stages of vipassana Dear Theresa, Thank you for the nice reply. Robert --- Theresa wrote: > Hello Robert, > > I guess our discussion has carried a lot of metta.. > Each has tried to > share what we know for the benefits of the other.. > To me, this is the > important task of dhamma friends.. Whether or not > what we practice or > believe is true and correct to us or everyone else > is not important.. > The importance, as I understand, is that each of us > finds a way to > know and understand ourselves, from moment to > moment.. > > > I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few > points. > > Actually, I have not disagreed to your views.. I > might share here and > there things I know (or I think I know), but that > does not mean that > I disagree with you.. :-)) > > << ----- > ....I assure you I try to be more skeptical of my > own knowledge... > -------- >> > > This is a very healthy attitude.. I hope that you > will, one day, not > even be skeptical of your own knowledge, but you > simply know yourself > from moment to moment.. There is no need for a final > conclusion > on "Self".. :-)) > > > Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier > above. > > I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas > and > > Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now. > > You have a solid foundation.. :-)) > > > ... I am more concerned in > > learning about the subtlety of moha and whether > there > > is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger, > > jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the > different > > feelings that arise at the same time – this is my > > interest. > > This is my daily practice, too.. > The simple awareness of things happening.. > > > Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or > that > > they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, > anatta; or > > that they had satori while mediating at the zen > temple > > near my city; or they know that God exists; or > that > > they are scientists and that after death > everything > > ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I > > reply in much the same way. I mentally and > verbally > > wish them well. > > The enlightenment of Buddha and Arahants does not > help us.. > Our own enlightenment is our salvation.. :-)) > > The wish to share the "how-to" is metta.. > The progress of an individual is his/her own > benefits and depends on > his/her own kammas.. > > > All I can say is that more and more the words > > contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The > > Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it > > appears and thus I continue on learning how to > study > > the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way. > > I guess we have a common belief that each of us will > benefit most > from having Continuous Mindfulness and learning from > the current > moments.. > > I still have "Self" and I still have a lot to > learn.. :-)) > > Let us be mindful and walk further on the Noble > Path.. > > With metta, > > Theresa. > > > 413 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jun 4, 2000 5:59pm Subject: 'Viriya' Dear friends in the dhamma, has uploaded 'Viriya-Parami' in the advanced section, translated from a talk aired on the occasion of his majesty the King's 72nd birthday, last December 5th., one of the broadest studies of perseverance, if not so profound in certain areas. Please help us correct mistakes and we would appreciate comments, Amara 414 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 3:50am Subject: Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) --- "Theresa " wrote: > (1) I vow to change me, not the world. Theresa, I finally found a moment to go through your letter again, and will now try to show you some of your misunderstandings, according to the Tipitaka; I hope your attitude of trying to change yourself will not be too tested. =^_^= > (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow > spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think > too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble > Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble > Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, isn't > it ??.. hehehe.. ]] In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha dukkha'. The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but impermanence. Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites to Nibbana as you claim, but wisdom (panna) is. (We are talking about Buddhism here, so if you refer to your own theories and not the Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if our religion is the same one and therefore perhaps our discussions should end here). In the tipitaka, the devas came to listen to the teachings and many attained high levels of panna, as did many happy and healthy people, therefore bodily and mental sufferings are not necessary in the least: devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering until they leave that life. Yet even for them impermanence rules, dukkha is present in the form of change, although most of the time it is hard to see for all the happiness. You should look up the Pali terms in the Tipitaka sometimes to help your understanding of the teachings. > (6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!) > bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations > (Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble Truths.. > hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-)) Samudaya is the second ariya sacca, and it does not translate as 'expectation or bother' but something much deeper: the origin or cause of impermanence, of arisings and fallings away, of births and rebirths. You must try to look deeper than the level of your own emotions here, the Buddha was not teaching just people with petty pains but all beings with panna, even 'happy' ones who still can develop panna to become ariyans. > (7) Must try and try to be in others' shoes.. Must try to have more > than one viewpoints.. If there is a new viewpoint which I have never > heard of before, it must be my ignorance, and so, I must learn and > accept it as another possibility to life, which I have been blind > to.. This task is challenging and continues to be.. :-)) I am glad you also have as you call in Robert's case, a 'healthy attitude', so let's procede. > Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which > emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or > don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I want > or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, > lobha/dosa) change accordingly.. Such inseparable mixture !! This is again not correct. Each reality arises and falls away so rapidly that not even the Buddha can change them, he can only know and eradicate them. Lobha and dosa can arise alternately in you but you cannot change one to the other, though with enough wisdom (panna) you might be able to eradicate them one day. Maybe you will need time to check some of the things above in the Tipitaka, so I will leave it at this, if I find the time I will try to point out more misunderstandings in your writings, I hope this helps you clarify some things, Amara 415 From: Theresa Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:14am Subject: Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) Hello Amara, First, I would like to thank you to take the time to point out my misunderstandings.. I guess that I can understand what you write better than you can understand what I wrote.. My terminology is something I always have to watch out for but still don't know how to.. :-)) << ----- T: (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. hehehe.. ]] A: In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha dukkha'. The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but impermanence. Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites to Nibbana as you claim, but wisdom (panna) is. (We are talking about Buddhism here, so if you refer to your own theories and not the Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if our religion is the same one and therefore perhaps our discussions should end here). ------- >> About the kinds of Dukkha, what you explained sounds like what my teacher said.. You wrote : << Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites to Nibbana as you claim... >> Direct experience into this matter is the only way to prove.. Whenever you reach Magga/Phala/Nibbana yourself, you will be the best judge of my claim.. :-)) Please set my words aside, and continue practicing as you have been doing.. You wrote : << The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but impermanence.>> I don't know a better way to explain what I experience.. I can only say that *WHENEVER* Impermanence is understood continuously, from moment to moment, THEN the knowledge about Dukkha springs from the knowledge of Impermanence.. It seems like two sides of the same coins.. This is how Lakkhana I understand "so far" through direct experience.. Another point as I understand, the knowledge or understanding about Lakkhanas continue to change as we walk further on the Noble Path.. I can not explain more than that.. It is best that you put aside what I shared with you, continue practicing what you have been doing, and allow yourself to know the truths from your own practice/experience.. :-)) You and I are trying to discuss about the TRUTHS.. Being right or wrong on discussions is not important, because TRUTHS shall forever be TRUTHS for us to know and learn from.. We meditate because we want to understand the truths.. We post messages because we wish to share what we learn to dhamma friends.. I find that each dhamma friend have taught me Dhamma and something about myself, which I have yet to learn.. :-)) Your wrote : << We are talking about Buddhism here, so if you refer to your own theories and not the Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if our religion is the same one and therefore perhaps our discussions should end here. >> I don't know any "religion".. I only know how to pracitice Vipassana in all four postures.. A dhamma friend teased me : "Shame on you ! You are a Theravadan Buddhist.. Because you practice Vipassana, you are a Therevadan.. Don't you know that??.." I learned to observe my tummy (my breath) and be mindful during walking, before my teacher gave me the terms, "Nama, Rupa" and said that they are "Buddhist terms" for the experience I had had and explained in my own layman terms during my progress report.. Couple months after first practicing, my teacher told me that what he taught me and I had practiced was called "Vipassana".. Therefore, I continue to claim that I know nothing about "Buddhism" and that I am still very blind to everything.. :-)) << ----- In the tipitaka, the devas came to listen to the teachings and many attained high levels of panna, as did many happy and healthy people, therefore bodily and mental sufferings are not necessary in the least: devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering until they leave that life. Yet even for them impermanence rules, dukkha is present in the form of change, although most of the time it is hard to see for all the happiness. You should look up the Pali terms in the Tipitaka sometimes to help your understanding of the teachings. -------- >> I appreciate your repeating the story told in the Tipitaka.. I do need to hear more stories.. :-)) You wrote : << devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering until they leave that life. >> Amara, with respect, I understand what you tried to explain, and yet, don't know how to better explain what I understand/experience.. Please continue to meditate as you have been doing.. I am confident that what you will experience/understand can not be different from what I have experienced, off and on, depending on the current meditation level(s) in the current moment.. After all, Buddha gaves us the same tool, which the four Foundations of Mindfulness, and so, we ought to see the same Four Noble Truths, so I strongly believe.. With respect and honesty, I would like to share another strong belief of mine : << "Dukkha" as the First Noble Truths MUST exist in all planes (happy planes, human planes, lower planes, or whatever planes there are but I don't know), because, being the "ultimate" truths, Dukkha MUST exist in realms, all conditions, all times, without exceptions.. Meaning, Buddha's Dhamma, especially the Four Noble Truths, are unconditional and must remain unchanged forever, even though our understanding of the truths can be gradual and at different levels as we grow spiritually over time.. >> So far, I have seen "Dukkha" right in the happy moment (when I win, when I feel succesful, when I feel being loved, etc.), and also in the sad/angry/dosa moments, too.. I don't have terms and am not qualified to explain the term "Dukkha".. I am not sure if Robert and I referred to same thing when we mentioned the same terms, and I like to blame my poor terminology.. However, Robert seems to understand/experience "Dukkha" from moment to moment as I have been.. For me, "Dukkha" changes its meaning, from gross to finer, with practice, experience, and Insight.. << ----- T: (6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!) bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations (Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble Truths.. hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-)) A: Samudaya is the second ariya sacca, and it does not translate as 'expectation or bother' but something much deeper: the origin or cause of impermanence, of arisings and fallings away, of births and rebirths. You must try to look deeper than the level of your own emotions here, the Buddha was not teaching just people with petty pains but all beings with panna, even 'happy' ones who still can develop panna to become ariyans. ---------- >> With respect and honest, I can not explain more than what I already did.. When I asked my teacher on similar topics you raised, he did not answer me but simply told me : "Go home.. Continue practice what you have been doing.. You will understand everything yourself.." and he also said : "Paramitta.. Paramitta.. Paramitta.." ( or is it, "Parami" ?? I'm not sure of the term ).. As I understand, in order to understand the Ariyas, we must develop Insight to the point that the Four Noble Truths are directly understood and experienced from moment to moment, without any time for reasoning, comparing, or pondering on the meanings.. The terms, 'expectation or bother', are my own clumsy layman terms.. For this, I am sorry and ask that you could help me learn more.. << ----- T: Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I want or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, lobha/dosa) change accordingly.. Such inseparable mixture !! A: This is again not correct. Each reality arises and falls away so rapidly that not even the Buddha can change them, he can only know and eradicate them. Lobha and dosa can arise alternately in you but you cannot change one to the other, though with enough wisdom (panna) you might be able to eradicate them one day. -------- >> I am pretty sure that we use the same terms to discuss two different ideas.. I referred to Lobha/Dosa as two sides of the same coin, and the difference is the "attachment" (what we want or do not want), when "Self" leads.. You referred to Lobha/Dosa occured in ONE instant (one moment) of experience, when there is no room to change Lobha to Dosa or vice versa and when there is "No Self".. What you said is very true, when Mindfulness is present.. What I said is useful whenever Mindfulness is not present, and it is helpful to remind "Self" to get back to Mindfulness.. :-)) If I can keep Mindfulness and experience "Selfless" continuously 24 hours a day for the rest of my life, I would not need reminders/reasonings.. YOu wrote : <> I am happy if you have been continuously seeing "each reality arises and falls away so rapidly".. This is my goal.. :-)).. You said that "not even the Buddha can change them [Dosa/Lobha]".. Yet, He taught us how to CONVERT a Sankhara/kamma into a Dhamma.. This conversion is done by Mindfulness plus Insight.. << ----- Maybe you will need time to check some of the things above in the Tipitaka, so I will leave it at this, if I find the time I will try to point out more misunderstandings in your writings, I hope this helps you clarify some things, -------- >> Thank you, Amara.. :-)) You are right about the fact that I need to learn from the Tipitaka.. With metta, Theresa. 416 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 9:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) >From: "Theresa " >My terminology is >something I always have to watch out for but still don't know how >to.. :-)) Theresa, I would suggest you read a book on our website called 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' which will help you with more precise terminology so that you could communicate better in the future and avoid further confusion, for which a very complete glossary is being prepared. >I don't know a better way to explain what I experience.. I can only >say that *WHENEVER* Impermanence is understood continuously, from >moment to moment, THEN the knowledge about Dukkha springs from the >knowledge of Impermanence.. It seems like two sides of the same >coins.. This is how Lakkhana I understand "so far" through direct >experience.. Nothing can be understood continuously because citta can only arise one at a time and at the instant of seeing there can be no thinking or 'understanding' as you call it. People without sati think there can be seeing and hearing at the same time, or any other sense perceptions at the same time, but the citta is much faster than that, between instants of seeing and thinking and hearing, there are bhavanga ciita arising in between in large numbers. Even the Buddha while performing the most difficult form of miracle which requires the highest concentration, must have bhavanga citta arising every third citta in the stream of citta. If you think you have continous understanding then you are only thinking without being conscious of thinking. >Another point as I understand, the knowledge or understanding about >Lakkhanas continue to change as we walk further on the Noble Path.. I >can not explain more than that.. You cannot explain because the understanding cannot change if it is the right understanding, it can only deepen and become more clear and precise. The lakkhana do not change either because none can change their reality which by the time you know them have fallen away, uncontrolable, unchangeable: hence the name Paramatthadhamma. >You and I are trying to discuss about the TRUTHS.. Being right or >wrong on discussions is not important, because TRUTHS shall forever >be TRUTHS for us to know and learn from.. The TRUTH cannot be both right and wrong, indeed the Buddha spent 45 years teaching about what is 'miccha' (wrong) and what is 'samma' (right) and to ignore it is to think you are wiser than the Buddha. It is true that we can learn from both, but the knowledge must include how to distinguish right from wrong, it is vital to do so, otherwise you might be practicing miccha samathi and take it for vipassana, simply because you couldn't distinguish between the two. >We meditate because we want to understand the truths.. We post >messages because we wish to share what we learn to dhamma friends.. I >find that each dhamma friend have taught me Dhamma and something >about myself, which I have yet to learn.. :-)) I practice vipassana according to the tipitaka, I don't know if you would call it meditation because as I said earlier, I don't have to sit down in order to meditate or expect sati to arise in certain possitions. And I study Dhamma not from any dhamma friend but a kalayanamitta who study the tiitaka, not individuals who speculate and are not sure what is what. I only know how to pracitice Vipassana >in all four postures.. What four, and where are they mentioned in the Tipitaka, and in what context? There are not only four postures but while you are in any posture at all you can study the true characteristics of realities, of nama and rupa. (But this is already better than rushing to sit cross legged at the drop of a hat thinking that that is what meditation is). I learned to observe my >tummy (my breath) and be mindful during walking, before my teacher >gave me the terms, "Nama, Rupa" and said that they are "Buddhist >terms" for the experience I had had and explained in my own layman >terms during my progress report.. Couple months after first >practicing, my teacher told me that what he taught me and I had >practiced was called "Vipassana".. Therefore, I continue to claim >that I know nothing about "Buddhism" and that I am still very blind >to everything.. :-)) Then you had better start learning about real vipassana in the Tipitaka, which you can also find in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part IX, Advanced section, so you can pass it on correctly. >Amara, with respect, I understand what you tried to explain, and yet, >don't know how to better explain what I understand/experience.. >Please continue to meditate as you have been doing.. I am confident >that what you will experience/understand can not be different from >what I have experienced, off and on, depending on the current >meditation level(s) in the current moment.. After all, Buddha gaves >us the same tool, which the four Foundations of Mindfulness, and so, >we ought to see the same Four Noble Truths, so I strongly believe.. Yes? Please finish. If I were you however, I would study his teachings befor I starting using his terminology without knowing precisely what anything meant. >With respect and honesty, I would like to share another strong belief >of mine : << "Dukkha" as the First Noble Truths MUST exist in all >planes (happy planes, human planes, lower planes, or whatever planes >there are but I don't know), because, being the "ultimate" truths, >Dukkha MUST exist in realms, all conditions, all times, without >exceptions.. Meaning, Buddha's Dhamma, especially the Four Noble >Truths, are unconditional and must remain unchanged forever, even >though our understanding of the truths can be gradual and at >different levels as we grow spiritually over time.. >> It does, as it is impermanence. But not as sufferings, or 'dukkha dukkha', or at least not in all the plains, while in others, such as the hell planes, there is suffering most of the time, so much so that they cannot pay attention to the dhamma. Beings in the hell planes can never be enlightened during that lifetime. >So far, I have seen "Dukkha" right in the happy moment (when I win, >when I feel succesful, when I feel being loved, etc.), and also in >the sad/angry/dosa moments, too.. I don't have terms and am not >qualified to explain the term "Dukkha".. > >I am not sure if Robert and I referred to same thing when we >mentioned the same terms, and I like to blame my poor terminology.. >However, Robert seems to understand/experience "Dukkha" from moment >to moment as I have been.. For me, "Dukkha" changes its meaning, from >gross to finer, with practice, experience, and Insight.. You won't have any problems with terminologies if you read the book mentioned above, I really recommend it so that we could all communicate more efficiently in the future, as well as for all your future communications with anyone at all on the same subject. It would avoid anyone confusing anyone else! Amara 417 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya' Dear Amara, Many thanks for your e-mail and for the wonderful phone conversation the other day. I spoke with Achaan Suchin and she suggested that I come over to her house next Saturday (the 10th) so that she could talk to me. Would you be free at all to take me over there? If so, I could meet you at your house and then we can drive over there together. Please let me know. Also, I checked out your translation of "Viriya" at the website and the first thing that hit my eye was that the beautiful graphics depicting a library and books was so vivid that the text could not be read easily. Can that be fixed up so that it can be read and suggestions given? Looking forward to hearing from you. Many thanks, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 11:59 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya' > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > has uploaded 'Viriya-Parami' in the advanced > section, translated from a talk aired on the occasion of his majesty the > King's 72nd birthday, last December 5th., one of the broadest studies of > perseverance, if not so profound in certain areas. > > Please help us correct mistakes and we would appreciate comments, > > Amara 418 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya' Dear amara, Thank you for all your viriya in translating Viriya. It is wonderful, everyone should read it. Robert 419 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 9:23pm Subject: Re: 'Viriya' --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Amara, > Many thanks for your e-mail and for the wonderful phone conversation the > other day. I spoke with Achaan Suchin and she suggested that I come over to > her house next Saturday (the 10th) so that she could talk to me. Would you > be free at all to take me over there? If so, I could meet you at your house > and then we can drive over there together. Please let me know. Dear Betty, It was a real pleasure talking to you, I look forward very much to Saturday. I am so sorry to say I have misplaced the e-mail Khun Jack sent with your phone numbers, could you please send them again to my private e-mail at , or call me? Please come to my place on Saturday at your convenience, I live only five minute's drive from Tan Acharn's. > Also, I checked out your translation of "Viriya" at the website and the > first thing that hit my eye was that the beautiful graphics depicting a > library and books was so vivid that the text could not be read easily. Can > that be fixed up so that it can be read and suggestions given? Thank you very much for your suffestions, I have tried to reduce the colors of the page but without too much success, I'm afraid the result is almost the same as before. Could you please check it again to see if you can read it any better? (Please remember to click on 'reload' or 'refresh' at the top of your screen, and as the article is rather long it may take a while to load.) It you still can't read it, please tell me and I will change the background set entirely. I am very grateful that you have pointed it out so that we could present the article in the best way possible, Thank you and see you Saturday, Amara 420 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 6:47am Subject: experiences & experiences Dear Theresa, Jonothan and I have just come back from a weekend in Bangkok with Khun Sujin and friends like Amara and Ivan & Ell from the list group here. We had useful discussions. (Betty and other Thai friends on the list, we were sorry not to meet you...hope to next time!) Theresa, we've been reading and enjoying your correspondence with Robert and Amara and appreciate your considerable interest in the dhamma. I'd like to tell you a little about my background in Buddhism... Like you, I also studied with a very famous teacher (in Bodh Gaya in my case) for many months initially. He had been a foremost pupil of Mahasi Sayadaw and what he taught was also the 'Burmese method' meditation...focus on the breathing at the belly, continuous mindfulness in the 4 postures etc etc.....I soon became an 'expert' meditator and afterwards spent many months in a temple in Sri Lanka continuing my practice under another well-known teacher of the same 'method'. I became so good at 'continuous mindfulness' that I cut off all contact with the outside world, never got angry or spoke a harsh word, followed the 8 precepts perfectly and in fact was so mindful whilst eating that I nearly starved as it was such a slow motion process... I seldom read even letters from home, let alone books and didn't write or do anything that would distract me from my medtation. I kept a diary, like you I think, which I read out to the head monk and as I ticked off the stages of insight, he encouraged me and said 'good, good, carry on'.... What happened? One day, another visitor, Ann, left an unedited manuscipt of a book in my 'cell' and I srtarted to read it. It was 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina Van Gorkom. I read and reread and also started to listen to a set of very badly recorded tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin on a trip to India. A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level, began to understand that there really is no control. What did that mean? It meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self could make it otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real whether in the temple or on a crowded bus. And so for all realities...they were conditioned and no self could force any mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the right understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or to try and have mindfulness or concentration. In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest in doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is motivated by the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it rather than understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and dislike appearing now. That was 25 years ago. After that I returned to family and friends. I returned to work and a 'normal' life. I studied a lot of the Tipitaka, I spent time with Nina, Khun Sujin and other dhamma friends. I listened a lot to the tapes from Bangkok and the considering and understanding slowly began to grow without any of the former illusions of having attained high levels....I was happy to be in kindergarten on the right track. I haven't had any wish or interest in following a 'meditation practice' since then. Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues regarding the practice with us here. metta, Sarah 421 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 8:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & experiences Dear Sarah, What a joy to read your letter describing the history of your search for Dhamma since there are parallels with my own search. After arriving in Bangkok from New York, over 34 years ago with my husband, who is Thai, he had tried to introduce Buddhism to me by bringing me to Wat Bavornives. There, Pra Khantipalo and other monks tried to teach me meditation. Though I tried, I could never master the discipline of it and it never became internalized. Then, in 1972, I was introduced to the mystical side of Buddhism with a wonderful teacher named Achaan Boonphen. At the time, it was what I needed, and though I gained a lot of understanding through psychic abilities, it did not change me internally. And when, toward the end of his life, Tan Achaan Boonphen urged us all the meditate, I still could not on a regular basis. After his death, I searched for other teachers, but they also could not answer the many questions that began to arise. Doubts about Buddhism, based on a lot of "moha", were continually plaguing me and the same old patterns of behavior/anger ("dosa"), especially at my husband and my children's nanny, kept recurring. I kept "trying out" new teachers, but things never changed. Then, one of the monks at Wat Bavorn suggested I contact the Dhamma Study group, and the rest is history. I feel that I'm now finally, as you say, back in Kindergarten, but starting on the right track. But what struck me most about your story and my own is that it was necessary to try out the various things we did in order to become ready for a proper study of Dhamma. Many thanks for listening. I regret that I missed meeting many from the group last Saturday sinceI misunderstood the directions to Khunying Nopparat's house and never arrived. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:47 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & experiences > > Dear Theresa, > > Jonothan and I have just come back from a weekend in Bangkok with Khun Sujin > and friends like Amara and Ivan & Ell from the list group here. We had > useful discussions. (Betty and other Thai friends on the list, we were > sorry not to meet you...hope to next time!) > > Theresa, we've been reading and enjoying your correspondence with Robert and > Amara and appreciate your considerable interest in the dhamma. I'd like to > tell you a little about my background in Buddhism... > > Like you, I also studied with a very famous teacher (in Bodh Gaya in my > case) for many months initially. He had been a foremost pupil of Mahasi > Sayadaw and what he taught was also the 'Burmese method' meditation...focus > on the breathing at the belly, continuous mindfulness in the 4 postures etc > etc.....I soon became an 'expert' meditator and afterwards spent many months > in a temple in Sri Lanka continuing my practice under another well-known > teacher of the same 'method'. I became so good at 'continuous mindfulness' > that I cut off all contact with the outside world, never got angry or spoke > a harsh word, followed the 8 precepts perfectly and in fact was so mindful > whilst eating that I nearly starved as it was such a slow motion process... > I seldom read even letters from home, let alone books and didn't write or do > anything that would distract me from my medtation. I kept a diary, like you > I think, which I read out to the head monk and as I ticked off the stages of > insight, he encouraged me and said 'good, good, carry on'.... > > What happened? One day, another visitor, Ann, left an unedited manuscipt of > a book in my 'cell' and I srtarted to read it. It was 'Abhidhamma in Daily > Life' by Nina Van Gorkom. I read and reread and also started to listen to a > set of very badly recorded tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin on a trip to > India. A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level, > began to understand that there really is no control. What did that mean? It > meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self could make it > otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real whether in the temple or > on a crowded bus. And so for all realities...they were conditioned and no > self could force any mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the right > understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or to try > and have mindfulness or concentration. > > In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest in > doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is motivated by > the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it rather than > understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and dislike appearing > now. > > That was 25 years ago. After that I returned to family and friends. I > returned to work and a 'normal' life. I studied a lot of the Tipitaka, I > spent time with Nina, Khun Sujin and other dhamma friends. I listened a lot > to the tapes from Bangkok and the considering and understanding slowly began > to grow without any of the former illusions of having attained high > levels....I was happy to be in kindergarten on the right track. I haven't > had any wish or interest in following a 'meditation practice' since then. > > Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues regarding > the practice with us here. > > metta, Sarah 422 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 11:13am Subject: Viriya revised by Robert Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just uploaded the revised version of 'viriya' sent by Robert, thank you so much, for the overwhelming encouragements as well! Betty, could you please take another look at the page (please remember to click on 'reload' or 'refresh') and see if it is any better than last time. I have changed the font size, but if it is still hard to read, it is vital to change the background completely which is not hard to do, so kindly tell me what you think. Sarah, don't you think it would give us much to discuss on the Cambodia trip! (I really hope you and Jonothan could come!) Amara 423 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 2:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Viriya revised by Robert Dear Amara, I really feel embarrased to see my name put as the revisor of your excellent translation. The very few corrections I made are so minor. So please take my name off the article. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > I have just uploaded the revised version of 'viriya' > sent by Robert, > thank you so much, for the overwhelming > encouragements as well! > > Betty, could you please take another look at the > page (please > remember to click on 'reload' or 'refresh') and see > if it is any > better than last time. I have changed the font > size, but if it is > still hard to read, it is vital to change the > background completely > which is not hard to do, so kindly tell me what you > think. > > Sarah, don't you think it would give us much to > discuss on the > Cambodia trip! (I really hope you and Jonothan > could come!) > > Amara > > > 424 From: Theresa Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: experiences & experiences Hello Sarah, Thank you for your very kind post and sharing your past experience with us... My practice, as you mentioned, uses the belly as the initial point of focus, and continuous mindfulness as a goal.. Most of my practice is General Meditation, and Sitting Meditation is done twice a day, once in the morning right after waking up and once at night before lying down to sleep.. I don't see myself as an "expert" meditator because I am learning from moment to moment.. In the past, I attended two ten- day meditation retreats plus one two-day retreat.. I have been reading books from Venerables from Thailand (Venerable Acharn Chah, Venerable Boowa, etc.. [sorry for my mispellings], and Venerables from other places.) I have never travelled to learn, except attending the retreats I mentioned earlier.. Most of my practice time is at home and among family and friends.. If I don't tell them, they don't know that I am a meditator.. I live and handle my responsibilities.. I eat, sleep, chat, laugh, simply live, and have been applying for job without luck.. I don't keep any diary of my practice, except when I first learned Vipassana, when I had too many terms to learn.. Every day I write letters/emails, talk to and meet my friends and family.. I am a single parent with two sons, and they are attached to me.. Family and friends contact me whenever they need my support or listening.. I don't cut off myself from the world around me, but see that I am part of the world.. I see myself as a nail or a screw for the entire system to work, and yet, I'm expendable.. :-)) << --- A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level, began to understand that there really is no control. What did that mean? It meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self could make it otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real whether in the temple or on a crowded bus. And so for all realities...they were conditioned and no self could force any mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the right understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or to try and have mindfulness or concentration. ------ >> Thank you, Sarah, for sharing.. I will keep your words in mind, and will give it a try.. I have put myself through many tests (many techniques, suggestions), and don't doubt others' words upon hearing.. I am a bit skeptical to share with you that, in fact, I have lived my life from moment to moment and, many times during the day, have seen this-thing, that-thing happening but there is "No- Self"; it's rather body-working, mind-working, body-working, mind- working, etc.. The reason I'm skeptical because I don't want my lack of terminology confuse anyone.. :-)) << ---- In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest in doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is motivated by the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it rather than understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and dislike appearing now. ------- >> Understanding from moment to moment !! That's how my practice has gone so far, at least for two years.. That's why I believe that there is no need for a final conclusion on "Self".. << ----- Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues regarding the practice with us here. -------- >> Thank you, Sarah.. Maybe it is best for everyone that I read more than write in order to reduce the confusion caused by my lack terminology.. :-)) .. Before and after my posts on this list, things go smoothly as life does, and in between, you thought of "me".. Thank you, Sarah.. With metta, Theresa. 425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 10:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] about Right Effort (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Theresa, >(( A NOTE for Robert and other members of the list who are practicing >at these progressive levels of Insight.. >I encourage you to put your head down and to nail the task of >Mindfulness, one by one, steady and firm, catching the end of one >event as clearly as possible, grabbing the beginning of a new event >with precision, leaving no room between events no matter how fine >events become.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! .. Please do not look forward or >wish for anything.. The best way to balance our mind and to bring >Upekkha coming, matured and steady, is to keep Mindfulness constant, >steady, continuous, careful, respectful.. If you need a boost, a week >of intense retreat should help.. )) I am a mere beginner. But mindfullness as taught by the Buddha is surely mindfullness that arises naturally, without having to put one's head down, trying to "catch" realities or spending time in a retreat? Jonothan 426 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 11:24am Subject: Re: Dead friend Theresa, Thanks for your comments. >It gets better with practice.. I mentally assume my death, the >extreme and slow pain which is painful enough to kill a >strong/healthy body, the decay of my body, the disappearance of so- >called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember those Truths, the >more I can just live, and the more I can accept loosing anything and >anyone I have.. After 100 years from right now, where are we, even >the newborn being born today ??.. Thinking like that helps me detach >in the current moment.. Useful reflection on death, such as when someone we know dies, can have a calming effect. But only a temporary effect. It does not, cannot, eradicate any of our accumulations of lobha. Visualisation practice such as you have mentioned is another thing altogether. There seems to be an element of "thinking" oneself into detachment. Jonothan 427 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 2:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend Dear Jonathan --- You commented on Theresa's words where she said ,Theresa: "the decay of my body, the > disappearance of so- > >called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember > those Truths, the > >more I can just live, and the more I can accept > loosing anything and > >anyone I have.. Thinking like > that helps me detach > >in the current moment.." > >You said that: Jonathan: "Useful reflection on death, such as when someone we > know dies, can have a > calming effect. But only a temporary effect. It > does not, cannot, > eradicate any of our accumulations of lobha." This is true, only vipassana can gradually elimate lobha and at first it only eliminates the type of lobha that is associated with miccha-ditthi (wrong view). However, any kusala is worth developing provided we understand its limitations - (as you do). The reflections on death that Theresa mentions are very valuable and they can be a support as well for intellectual right understanding; at the same time right understanding supports those kusala thoughts. Also reflecting on death (maranasati)very naturally conditions viriya to arise - one realizes that the very next citta could be cuti-citta, death moment. One sees that the only right thing to do is to develop the Buddha's path. To be truly succesful reflecting on death has to go hand in hand with an acceptance of anatta. Otherwise it will be "me" who is going to die. And if there are times when we are afraid of death this can be like a warning that we are clinging to self - it shows our deep-rooted attachment. However, even if one is not yet ready to understand anatta refecting on death still has great benefits. Once the bodhisatta was a farmer. He had a wife, a son, and a daughter. One day he was out on the farm with his son when the son was bitten by a snake and died. The farmer (our bodhisatta) considered that nothing could be done and so calmly continued working. When he came home alone that evening his wife realized that the son must have died and so calmly went about prepering for his cremation. Later the family were burning the body when Sakka, king of the devas, asked them if they were burning some rubbish. He said that they looked so relaxed that he couldn't believe it was someone they cared for. But all of them said how much they loved the son and what a wonderful son, brother he was. Their calmness came about because of their wise refections on death. Thus we see that reflecting on death in daily life is a cause for calmness. It is indeed a most useful type of samattha meditation. Those who develop it correctly can become courageous in many areas. It can be like our best friend. It can go hand in hand with the development of vipassana. Robert 428 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 11:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: experiences & experiences Hello Theresa, > >Thank you for your very kind post and sharing your past experience >with us... > >My practice, as you mentioned, uses the belly as the initial point of >focus, and continuous mindfulness as a goal.. Theresa, thanks for yr response too.. The problem lies with the goal...better to understand one reality now for a brief moment such as seeing, hearing, hardness, softness..whatever appears. Awareness or mindfulness (sati) will then arise automatically with the understanding without any goal of continuous mindfulness...To this end we learn more and more about the realities, the objects of understanding. >Family and friends contact me whenever they need my support or >listening.. I don't cut off myself from the world around me, but see >that I am part of the world.. I see myself as a nail or a screw for >the entire system to work, and yet, I'm expendable.. :-)) > sounds like you play a very useful role and it's good that you understand the value of practice in daily life. >Thank you, Sarah, for sharing.. I will keep your words in mind, and >will give it a try.. No need to try, no need to do anything special. By reading and considering more about realities, different from concepts or stories and understanding that they cannot be controlled there will be more and more conditions for understanding to develop of its own accord. >I have lived my life from moment to moment and, many times during the >day, have seen this-thing, that-thing happening but there is "No- >Self"; it's rather body-working, mind-working, body-working, mind- >working, etc.. The reason I'm skeptical because I don't want my lack >of terminology confuse anyone.. :-)) > It's not a matter of living from moment to moment. Our life is but a moment of seeing, hearing etc whether there is any understanding of what appears or not. These realities are conditoned. Seeing only sees visible object or colour, a rupa, and thinking thinks about different stories or concepts. The thinking is real but the stories are only stories, not realities. Don't worry about the terminology...we're only interested in the understanding behind it! > >Understanding from moment to moment !! That's how my practice has >gone so far, at least for two years.. That's why I believe that there >is no need for a final conclusion on "Self".. > Never mind about the moment to moment, just one reality now, a moment of seeing now as no being or thing in it, different from thinking about it or trying to be mindful. >Thank you, Sarah.. Maybe it is best for everyone that I read more >than write in order to reduce the confusion caused by my lack >terminology.. :-)) .. Before and after my posts on this list, things >go smoothly as life does, and in between, you thought of "me".. Thank >you, Sarah.. > I highly recommend any writings by Nina Van Gorkom (some are on the websites) and some are in book form. Tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin are also useful as is Tipitaka study as Amara has been urging. The understanding of the Buddha's teachings is not easy for any of us and you are most welcome to ask any questions, raise concerns or disagree anytime! I'm glad you found us! metta, Sarah 429 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 7:21pm Subject: Fw: Be on Alert Dear Friends, Am passing this on because I believe it is from a reliable source. If it turns out to be a hoax, please forgive me. Betty ----- Original Message ----- [sni[p] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 8:50 AM Subject: Fwd: Be on Alert > > > >Subject: Be on Alert > >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:32:27 +0800 > > > >FW: Apcosoftians....Be on AlertThere is a new virus - WOBBLER. It will > >arrive on e-mail titled > >CALIFORNIA. IBM and AOL have announced that it is very > >powerful, more so > >than Melissa, there is no remedy. It will eat all your > >information on the > >hard drive and also destroys Netscape Navigator and > >Microsoft Internet > >Explorer. Do not open anything with this title and please pass this > >message on to all your contacts and anyone who uses your > >e-mail facility. > >Not > >many people seem to know about this yet so propagate it as fast as > >possible. > > > > 2.If you receive an e-mail titled "Win A. Holiday" DO NOT open it. It > >will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this > >letter to as many > >people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many > >people know > >about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from > >Microsoft. > > > > > > > > Amrita > 430 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 8, 2000 10:34am Subject: Re: Dead friend Robert wrote- > However, any kusala is worth developing provided we > understand its limitations - (as you do). The > reflections on death that Theresa mentions are very > valuable and they can be a support as well for > intellectual right understanding; at the same time > right understanding supports those kusala thoughts. Yes, kusala of any degree is extremely valuable and is to be encouraged. But visualising one's own death and bodily decay and "living" the pain of death, as a kind of meditation exercise, is not maranasati in any shape or form. By contrast, the sober reflection that arises naturally when someone we know dies is likely to be so – but is there awareness of it as such? Jonothan 431 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 8, 2000 3:59am Subject: itinerary Dear friends in the dhamma, You can find the itinerary of the Cambodian trip in Newsletter 5, please click on the underlined word 'Itinerary', many thanks to Ell for sending it in. From what I heard the trips are getting so popular that it is turning into a mammoth tour, with over a hundred signed up and limits set at 200! I wouldn't be surprised if it will take ages to travel about so please arm yourselves with lots of metta and khanti (just kidding!) and most of all lots of questions for Khun Sujin!!! Amara 433 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jun 9, 2000 0:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend & maranasati Robert, this is an interesting theme! > >However, any kusala is worth developing provided we >understand its limitations - (as you do). The >reflections on death that Theresa mentions are very >valuable and they can be a support as well for >intellectual right understanding; at the same time >right understanding supports those kusala thoughts. ..if they really are maranasati or with rt understanding of death at the level of samatha....mostly when we think or reflect on death it isn't. K.Sujin stressed how difficult this object is on our recent visit compared to say the development of metta (loving-kindness) when we are with other people. > >Also reflecting on death (maranasati) very naturally >conditions viriya to arise - one realizes that the >very next citta could be cuti-citta, death moment. One >sees that the only right thing to do is to develop the >Buddha's path. You prompted me to look up in the Visuddhimagga.. I don't pretend to know much about maranasati. However the Vis. urges caution in reflection of an 'agreeable' person's death as sorrow tends to arise on one's own death as anxiety tends to arise....instead 'avert to the death of beings already dead but formerly seen enjoying good things, doing so with mindfulness, with a sense of urgency and with knowledge, after which he can exercise his attention in the way beginning "Death will take place"...' Vis V111,4f. So often what seems like a moment of calm or viriya is really a moment of lobha.. > >To be truly succesful reflecting on death has to go >hand in hand with an acceptance of anatta. Otherwise >it will be "me" who is going to die. And if there are >times when we are afraid of death this can be like a >warning that we are clinging to self - it shows our >deep-rooted attachment. >However, even if one is not yet ready to understand >anatta reflecting on death still has great benefits. Depends on whether it really is kusala ....>Once the bodhisatta was a farmer. He had a wife, a >son, and a daughter. One day he was out on the farm >with his son when the son was bitten by a snake and >died. The farmer (our bodhisatta) considered that >nothing could be done and so calmly continued working. >When he came home alone that evening his wife realized >that the son must have died and so calmly went about >prepering for his cremation. Later the family were >burning the body when Sakka, king of the devas, asked >them if they were burning some rubbish. He said that >they looked so relaxed that he couldn't believe it was >someone they cared for. But all of them said how much >they loved the son and what a wonderful son, brother >he was. Their calmness came about because of their >wise refections on death. exactly...the wise reflections developed over many lifetimes.. >Thus we see that reflecting on death in daily life is >a cause for calmness. the key is the understanding It is indeed a most useful type >of samattha meditation. Those who develop it correctly >can become courageous in many areas. It can be like >our best friend. It can go hand in hand with the >development of vipassana. better to understand more about realities now than be concerned about developing maranasati... if there are conditions for rt understanding at this level, fine, otherwise let it go, o'wise for sure it's attachment being developed... I should add that there's nothing wrong w/visualisations, breathing exercises, sitting meditations (or doing yoga or Tai Chi as I do) for health or other reasons, as long as one doesn't kid oneself that this in itself is the practice of the Buddha's Path. Sarah 434 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 8, 2000 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend & maranasati --- Thank you sarah for reminding us of the difficulty of samattha. Yes it is hard to know. > ..."if they really are maranasati or with rt > understanding of death at the > level of samatha....mostly when we think or reflect > on death it isn't. > K.Sujin stressed how difficult this object is on our > recent visit compared > to say the development of metta (loving-kindness) > when we are with other > people. I was interested that maranasati is more difficult than metta. It may depend also on accumulations? could some people be more inclined, have more past accumulations in maranasati than in metta? Khun sujin once said to me that maranasati can be like ones best friend. For some people it is certainly unsuitable at certain times- it can just condition dosa. But one of the reasons that it is easier than anapanasati is because if there is any dosa one immediately realizes that one is on the wrong track. Still nothing is actually easy. Even giving , the most basic type of kusala, is usually mixed up with lobha - how much more so these more subtle ways of development. h > > better to understand more about realities now than > be concerned about > developing maranasati... Well, yes understanding realities is always the best. But the path depends on many complex factors; parami developed at different levels. It seems hasty to negelct any area of kusala- even if it is difficult to understand properly. Robert 435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 0:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Mike, We haven't heard from you in a while and hope you're still there! When you posted details of yr website a while ago I was too busy to spend time reading and browsing. I've just been doing so and appreciate yr great format and all the work that has gone into poducing the site. It's especially good to see Tipitaka translations and a good glossary there. Feel free to put a link from here anytime (and viceversa if you wish) and to let us know of anything of special interest to this group. Sorry you didn't get to join the discussions in California. It looks like Jonothan and I (along with Amara, Robert and others from this list) will be joining the discussions in Cambodia. Khun Sujin has promised there will be discusions in English as well as in Thai and I'd be delighted if you or anyone else from the list is free to join. Agreeing with what she or we say is NOT necessary at all - in fact, disagreements lead to more lively discussions often! best regards, Sarah > >Hi! > >I just joined this group and want to introduce myself. I've read many >of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear. I've >recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in >allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my >website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of >resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process of getting a >wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and >Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get >permission to do so. There are extensive offerings there and I invite >you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > >I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding >there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > >With metta, > >Mike Potter > 436 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 1:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & experiences Betty wrote- >I regret that I missed meeting many from the >group last Saturday since I misunderstood the directions to Khunying >Nopparat's house and never arrived. Betty, Yes, Sarah and I were sorry not to have met you. I hope your experience was not as frustrating as my own. My taxi from the hotel took 2 hours to reach Khunying Nopparat’s house, the last hour of which was spent going back and forth along Chaengwattana Road looking for the right turnoff. A combination of being lost, stuck in traffic and being persuaded that I must have given the wrong address or the wrong directions for getting to that address had me in a state of some anxiety by the time I arrived. It took me the rest of the afternoon’s talk to recover! (Note for Amara: this was no “wide, deep, slow moving river”, more like a raging torrent.) Fortunately, there were some occasions of remembering that dosa arising is just the manifestation of accumulations for having dosa. As long as the tendency is there it will find an object. However, the understanding of that dosa as being not self is another thing altogether. And the stronger the dosa, the more remote that possibility can seem. Jonothan 437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 4:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality Theresa, Thanks for your comments on my earlier message in the archives on the relation between dosa (aversion) and lobha (attachment) to sensuous objects. I agree with your observation that- >There is Dosa, because there is something you wish for but can not >get it.. Meaning, there is a minute Lobha behind your Dosa.. But I am not so sure about your second proposition that- >There is Lobha, because there is something you don't like and then >you don't have it.. Meaning, there is a minute Dosa behind your >Lobha. … We are happy, because there is something we fear and are lucky not >to >have it.. It seems to me that lobha has been accumulated because of moha (ignorance) about the true nature of realities. If we understood better the true nature of realities we would not see anything about them worth clinging to. This is why we take for pleasant/happiness that which is intrinsically insubstantial and not conducive to our happiness. But until understanding is highly developed we are bound to continue to accumulate more ignorance and attachment, and to experience more dosa on that account (sigh). Jonothan 438 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 4:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) Amara, In a message to Theresa you said- >In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is >Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha >dukkha'. The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but >impermanence. Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say that the first ariya sacca (noble truth) is not suffering but impermanence. Jonothan 439 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 10:11pm Subject: Re: Hello! On the subject of Mike's website, the new URL is- http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm and the home page contains a lot of links to other Dhamma sites. Well worth bookmarking. --- In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109241227048211120136083229073126, "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > We haven't heard from you in a while and hope you're still there! When you > posted details of yr website a while ago I was too busy to spend time > reading and browsing. I've just been doing so and appreciate yr great format > and all the work that has gone into poducing the site. It's especially good > to see Tipitaka translations and a good glossary there. Feel free to put a > link from here anytime (and viceversa if you wish) and to let us know of > anything of special interest to this 440 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jun 10, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) >From: "Jonothan Abbott" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: It's quite all right.. :-)) >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:43:21 GMT > >Amara, > >In a message to Theresa you said- > > >In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is > >Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha > >dukkha'. The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but > >impermanence. > >Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say that the first ariya >sacca >(noble truth) is not suffering but impermanence. > Jonothan, I think that there would be no problems in the world if there were no impermanence, there could be as much attachment as you want to any world anywhere: nothing would ever change, for example in the happier planes and the brahma worlds, life lasts a very long time indeed, without 'sufferings', at least in the physical sense. But even there things come to an end where conditions no longer cause the beings to live there but for the next set of kamma to yield results, and they are born in their next lives, which could be anywhere, and after that life, the next and the next. The Tipitaka says we have all been born everything imaginable, from the highest brahma to the lowliest creatures in hell and back again and again, during the billions of years we have been in samsara vatta. With each death comes parting, what was clung to is then gone, never to come again. In this cycle of births and deaths, the impermanence of life is the greatest threat in all the worlds. This is one of the reasons why you have been finding maramasati so beneficient, don't you think? Something that affected us all today was when some of Ell's friends who had wanted to join the discussions Khun Sujin had with Betty this afternoon but couldn't because they had to go to a funeral of their daughter's friends, two boys who were celebrating their high school graduation in Phuket with their classmates who were run over by a van. One can see that impermanence can visit beings at any time, maybe without any physical or mental pain, but surely with changes. Their parents probably suffer more than they do, that they had to change, after such a short life, according to conditions. And these changes can cause dukkha dukkha to arise, indeed it does all the time, bodily aches and pains arise when the temperature inside or outside changes too much, when there is too much hardness (as when you get cut by a knife or hit by a bullet) or even when there is too much tension in your muscles. Mental attachment to things can of course cause great pain when the object of your attachment changes or your views of the object change, or when they are gone definitively. But with panna even impermanence cannot cause dukkha dukkha to arise, because panna knows impermanence as it is and does not expect it to be any different, knowing it for what it is there at the highest level would eliminate attachments that could cause any more rebirths and therefore no deaths nor any impermanence any more. But that is panna of the arahanta level and not of just the understanding or intellectual level, or even in the level of studying and experiencing, of accumulating panna, but the attainment level. Still, the higher levels of panna can be attained only by accumulating the first levels to condition the higher ones to arise: by knowing what sati is and studying realities that appear to accumulate the knowledge of their true characteristics, with the right understanding that sati can arise anywhere at any time when there are conditions for it to. Only then would panna be powerful enough to eradicate attachment as well as all other kilesa to free you from rounds of rebirth, from attachments and impermanence. Writing about this has been conditioning some sati to arise for me, thank you for making me think about it, Amara 441 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 11, 2000 9:17pm Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Annica (was It's quite all right.) Amara, Many thanks for your informative reply. I can see that the unfortunate incident regarding the 2 schoolboys was a condition for some useful reflection. Would this be a level of maranasati (death as object of concentration), I wonder, or some other aspect of kusala? Yes, I do understand that dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) can only be understood in the context of annica (impermanence). But the two are nevertheless separate and distinct characteristics, and the Buddha chose to state the second ariya sacca in terms of dukkha rather than annica. So presumably that must be the most helpful way to consider it? Jonothan 442 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jun 11, 2000 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Annica (was It's quite all right.) >From: "Jonothan Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Annica (was It's quite all >right.) >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:17:06 GMT > >Amara, > >Many thanks for your informative reply. I can see that the unfortunate >incident regarding the 2 schoolboys was a condition for some useful >reflection. Would this be a level of maranasati (death as object of >concentration), I wonder, or some other aspect of kusala? Upon reflection I think there were both contemplation of death and the urgency of studying while one still has the opportunity to do so, and the characteristics that appear when one thinks of sati, the touches of the keys as you print, the sight of the screen, etc. even as I write and read here and now. And the realization that there are more moments without sati than with, regretably! >Yes, I do understand that dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) can only be >understood >in the context of annica (impermanence). But the two are nevertheless >separate and distinct characteristics, and the Buddha chose to state the >second ariya sacca in terms of dukkha rather than annica. So presumably >that must be the most helpful way to consider it? According to the Tipitaka, unsatisfactoriness is dosa, of a certain degree. Dukkha is impermanence or subject to changes, arising and falling away, and dukkha dukkha is suffering. You might check it with Khun Sujin as well, but as I remember, the dukkha in the first ariya sacca is impermanence and not suffering, even if suffering results from it. In the tilakkhana as well, which are anicca, dukkha and anatta, stresses impermanence, not durable of enduring, and non-self or under no one's control. Sometimes the Tipitaka uses terms that are not really the general usage, for example the word 'loka' which in other contexts means 'world' is explained in a certain passage as 'that which falls away, destroyable'. If you like I will ask Khun Sujin when we next meet, to make sure, Amara 443 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 12, 2000 2:05am Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Annica (was It's quite all right.) Just now I forgot to suggest you check it in the 'Summary' towards the end of Part I, on , advanced section, on the 4 ariya sacca dhamma, in the meantime, Amara > >Yes, I do understand that dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) can only be > >understood > >in the context of annica (impermanence). But the two are nevertheless > >separate and distinct characteristics, and the Buddha chose to state the > >second ariya sacca in terms of dukkha rather than annica. So presumably > >that must be the most helpful way to consider it? > > According to the Tipitaka, unsatisfactoriness is dosa, of a certain degree. > Dukkha is impermanence or subject to changes, arising and falling away, and > dukkha dukkha is suffering. You might check it with Khun Sujin as well, but > as I remember, the dukkha in the first ariya sacca is impermanence and not > suffering, even if suffering results from it. In the tilakkhana as well, > which are anicca, dukkha and anatta, stresses impermanence, not durable of > enduring, and non-self or under no one's control. Sometimes the Tipitaka > uses terms that are not really the general usage, for example the word > 'loka' which in other contexts means 'world' is explained in a certain > passage as 'that which falls away, destroyable'. If you like I will ask > Khun Sujin when we next meet, to make sure, > > Amara > 444 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 12, 2000 3:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca >Just now I forgot to suggest you check it in the 'Summary' towards >the >end of Part I, on , advanced section, on >the 4 ariya sacca dhamma, in the meantime, Amara, Thanks for pointing me to this source. I found the following in the section headed “All sankhara are dukkha” (which follows the section “All sankhara are impermanent”)— All sankhara-dhamma arise and fall away whether they be good or bad citta, rupa that are beautiful or not, all arise and fall away alike. This impermanence of arising and falling away is dukkha because [all sankhara] do not last ... sankhara are dukkha because they are impermanent. When they arise, they fall away; they should not be taken for happiness. Some may wonder why sankhara are dukkha when the citta can be pleasant, delightful and happy. They are dukkha because the pleasant, delightful and happy citta is also impermanent. Sankhara -dhamma, namely citta, cetasika and rupa, are all dukkha because they are all impermanent.[ends] This confirms the close connection between anicca and dukkha. But it is not quite the same as saying that dukkha means impermanent. Not only are sankhara dhammas impermanent but they are also, because of that impermanence, unsatisfactory. Both characteristics must be known. And different beings have different accumulations as to which characteristic is the more apparent. In an earlier message you said- >According to the Tipitaka, unsatisfactoriness is dosa, of a certain >degree.[ends] Could you refer us to the passage you have in mind? Thanks. Jonothan 445 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2000 0:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend & maranasati Robert, >I was interested that maranasati is more difficult >than metta. It may depend also on accumulations? could >some people be more inclined, have more past >accumulations in maranasati than in metta? Khun sujin >once said to me that maranasati can be like ones best >friend. For some people it is certainly unsuitable at >certain times- it can just condition dosa. But one of >the reasons that it is easier than anapanasati is >because if there is any dosa one immediately realizes >that one is on the wrong track. Still nothing is >actually easy. Even giving , the most basic type of >kusala, is usually mixed up with lobha - how much more >so these more subtle ways of development. > You mention the dosa but what about lobha, what about moha? we are seldom on the right track...it's so easy to take one of these for being calmness and so easy to develop attachment to a practise of calmness or concentration rather than developing rt understanding. K.Sujin suggested metta was easier because there are beings around us most the time, but not dead bodies. Just as metta cannot arise unless a bing is present, I wondered if she meant the same with maranasati but would have to check further as I hadn't heard this before and am not sure where to find relevant Tipitaka reference. You or Amara may know. One thing for sure is that whenever there is the inclination to develop maranasati, metta or any other kind of kusala one can be pretty sure it's lobha with an idea of self lurking and no understanding of the present reality. It's like when we talk about India or Thailand or reading dh books or meditating as being more conducive to the practice or development of satipatthana....no understanding of seeing, hearing etc and the latent or not so latent clinging to self is lurking... >Well, yes understanding realities is always the best. >But the path depends on many complex factors; parami >developed at different levels. It seems hasty to >negelct any area of kusala- even if it is difficult to >understand properly. >Robert > So consider and develop more understanding of all realities without selection.....and it depends on conditions what will appear.. but no use in minding or having the idea of developing any particular kind of kusala.... not easy..because of the clinging to self and clinging to kusala. Sarah > I'd like to follow up w/ K.S. about how maranasait can be like one's best friend - I haven't heard this reference. 446 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 12, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend & maranasati Dear Sarah, just one point. You said that metta cannot be developed without beings been present. Do you mean that one has to be in their presence? If so I think that is incorrect. Metta takes a concept, a person, as object. But the person does not have to be in the same room or even same country for metta towards them to arise. Robert 447 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 12, 2000 5:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca >All sankhara-dhamma arise and fall away whether they be good or bad citta, >rupa that are beautiful or not, all arise and fall away alike. This >impermanence of arising and falling away is dukkha because [all sankhara] >do >not last ... sankhara are dukkha because they are impermanent. When they >arise, they fall away; they should not be taken for happiness. Some may >wonder why sankhara are dukkha when the citta can be pleasant, delightful >and happy. They are dukkha because the pleasant, delightful and happy >citta >is also impermanent. Sankhara -dhamma, namely citta, cetasika and rupa, >are >all dukkha because they are all impermanent.[ends] > >This confirms the close connection between anicca and dukkha. But it is >not >quite the same as saying that dukkha means impermanent. Not only are >sankhara dhammas impermanent but they are also, because of that >impermanence, unsatisfactory. Both characteristics must be known. And >different beings have different accumulations as to which characteristic is >the more apparent. Jonothan, I think you must condider it more deeply and in accordance with the fact that lobha and dosa can never arise simultaneously so that lobha or pleasure or satisfactoriness cannot arise with dosa or displeasure or unsatisfactoriness. Therefore to think that dukkha as a character universal to all things can be both is not logical, while all things are indeed impermanent, they all arise and fall away, therefore all things are dukkha that are subject to changes, but not all are dukkha dukkha or sufferings. You might ask Khun Sujin about it next time. >In an earlier message you said- > >According to the Tipitaka, unsatisfactoriness is dosa, of a certain > >degree.[ends] >Could you refer us to the passage you have in mind? Thanks. One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, Citta (9-16) Part IIa of the 'Summary'. Dosa is not only anger or fear or sorrow but also the slightest unpleasant feeling or unsatisfactoriness, even uneasy sympathy in another's emotions. You might also ask Khun Sujin to explain it further, One can easily identify strong lobha or dosa, but the ones that accompany us from the moment we wake up to the moment we fall asleep are much harder to discern. If we do not desire pleasant feeling, why do we wash and dress in the morning, if we do not dislike dirt and unclean clothings, why do we change and put on things we feel comfortable in on? We are pushed and pulled by lobha and dosa all day long as part of daily life, we are not even conscious of it. Only instants of sati can show us what things really are, which is why they are so precious, at whatever level they arise. Amara 448 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 12, 2000 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca the Buddha chose to state the second ariya sacca in terms of dukkha rather than annica. So presumably that must be the most helpful way to consider it? Jonothan, The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or unenduring, it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only impermanent in the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in temporary usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, never to come again. Dukkha dukkha is explained because it is differentiated from dukkha, otherwise they would not have distinguished between the two. Dosa is characterised by both while lobha only dukka and not dukkha dukkha. I don't know if this helps, Amara 449 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] marana to metta Robert, I have heard Kh Sujin say that the time for metta is when one is with other people and as a general rule I think this is when it can and does arise, but I may have misunderstood this to mean one must be with other people. Obviously there can be metta while speaking on the phone or writing to others at the computer, for example, because, as you say, a concept, a person is the object. Like dana, however, it must be practised and developed in daily life naturally and there must be right understanding(at level of samatha or vipassana) for it to develop. I think the point was that it cannot be developed by sitting alone in a quiet room 'willing' it to develop or just repeating 'may all beings be happy...' Thanks for yr correction...We can start a list of Cambodia topics..metta, marana. I find the emphasis on welfare of others below to be helpful. 'As to characteristic, etc., loving kindness is characterized here as promoting the aspect of welfare. Its function is to prefer welfare. it is manifested as the removal of annoyance. its proximate cause is seeing lovableness in beings. it succeeds when it makes ill-will subside, and it fails when it produces (selfish) affection.' Vis (ch 1X,93) p274 (quoted in Cetasikas by Nina Van G where she gives a lot more helpful detail about metta) Sarah >Dear Sarah, >just one point. You said that metta cannot be >developed without beings been present. > >Do you mean that one has to be in their presence? >If so I think that is incorrect. Metta takes a >concept, a person, as object. But the person does not >have to be in the same room or even same country for >metta towards them to arise. >Robert > 450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 13, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca Amara, Thanks for your comments and suggestions. >I think you must consider it more deeply and in accordance with the fact >that lobha and dosa can never arise simultaneously so that lobha or >pleasure >or satisfactoriness cannot arise with dosa or displeasure or >unsatisfactoriness.. .. .. I have not previously come across the terms satisfactoriness and unsatisfactoriness used to describe particular aspects of lobha and dosa respectively, and personally I do not find these terms helpful in this context. In any event, unsatisfactoriness as you have used it here must mean something other than the dukkha which is a characteristic of all sankhara dhammas. >One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, Citta >(9-16) >Part IIa of the 'Summary'. This is an interesting discussion of Vedana but I could not found anything directly on the present issues. >The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or unenduring, >it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, >unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only impermanent in >the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in temporary >usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, never to >come again. The point is that this Dukkha is a characteristic separate and distinct from the other characteristic of anicca, so impermanence should not be the focus. As I understand it, the focus should be on insubstantiality (as you have mentioned) and worthlessness. For some reason you seem to find the usual term "unsatisfactory" in this context to be, well, unsatisfactory! In the end, of course, what is important is the direct understanding rather than the words used. Jonothan 451 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 2:38am Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca > I have not previously come across the terms satisfactoriness and > unsatisfactoriness used to describe particular aspects of lobha and dosa > respectively, and personally I do not find these terms helpful in this > context. In any event, unsatisfactoriness as you have used it here must > mean something other than the dukkha which is a characteristic of all > sankhara dhammas. Jonothan, That is why Dukkha is unenduring or hard to endure while dukkha dukkha would mean a degree of dosa, while unsatisfactoriness is another degree (as a torrent is to a drop of rain? But in the end with the eradication of dosa, there would not be even hint of moisture left!). > >One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, Citta > >(9-16) > >Part IIa of the 'Summary'. > > This is an interesting discussion of Vedana but I could not found anything > directly on the present issues. It talks about dosa that arises even as sympathetic sorrow. > >The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or unenduring, > >it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, > >unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only impermanent in > >the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in temporary > >usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, never to > >come again. > > The point is that this Dukkha is a characteristic separate and distinct from > the other characteristic of anicca, so impermanence should not be the focus. > As I understand it, the focus should be on insubstantiality (as you have > mentioned) and worthlessness. For some reason you seem to find the usual > term "unsatisfactory" in this context to be, well, unsatisfactory! > > In the end, of course, what is important is the direct understanding rather > than the words used. > > Jonothan I agree that in the end it is the study of the reality itself which is most important to the accumulation of panna. Still, to me lobha and chanda can be very close and arise one with the other, but unsatisfactoriness is certain to be dosa except for the arahanta, who would recognize the qualities with kiriya citta and therefore be completely indifferent. Once one is not satisfied, one cannot be indifferent, I don't think. As we discussed the other day, one of the vipassana nana is to be indifferent before kusala nad akusala alike, but we are not there yet!!! Amara 452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 9:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca Amara, While our differences remain, I hope you have found this exchange as useful as I have. Sadly, noone else on the list seems to find this point of interest. I would like to mention at his point that Sarah and I will be away for 2 weeks plus as from this coming Friday, and we do not expect to have access to the internet during that period, except perhaps very occasionally. So don't be surprised if you don't hear from us for a while. Jonothan >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:38:03 -0000 > > > > I have not previously come across the terms satisfactoriness and > > unsatisfactoriness used to describe particular aspects of lobha and >dosa > > respectively, and personally I do not find these terms helpful in >this > > context. In any event, unsatisfactoriness as you have used it here >must > > mean something other than the dukkha which is a characteristic of >all > > sankhara dhammas. > > >Jonothan, > >That is why Dukkha is unenduring or hard to endure while dukkha >dukkha >would mean a degree of dosa, while unsatisfactoriness is another >degree (as a torrent is to a drop of rain? But in the end with the >eradication of dosa, there would not be even hint of moisture left!). > > > > >One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, >Citta > > >(9-16) > > >Part IIa of the 'Summary'. > > > > This is an interesting discussion of Vedana but I could not found >anything > > directly on the present issues. > > >It talks about dosa that arises even as sympathetic sorrow. > > > > >The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or >unenduring, > > >it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, > > >unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only >impermanent in > > >the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in >temporary > > >usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, >never to > > >come again. > > > > The point is that this Dukkha is a characteristic separate and >distinct from > > the other characteristic of anicca, so impermanence should not be >the focus. > > As I understand it, the focus should be on insubstantiality (as >you have > > mentioned) and worthlessness. For some reason you seem to find the >usual > > term "unsatisfactory" in this context to be, well, unsatisfactory! > > > > In the end, of course, what is important is the direct >understanding >rather > > than the words used. > > > > Jonothan > > >I agree that in the end it is the study of the reality itself which >is >most important to the accumulation of panna. Still, to me lobha and >chanda can be very close and arise one with the other, but >unsatisfactoriness is certain to be dosa except for the arahanta, who >would recognize the qualities with kiriya citta and therefore be >completely indifferent. Once one is not satisfied, one cannot be >indifferent, I don't think. As we discussed the other day, one of >the >vipassana nana is to be indifferent before kusala nad akusala alike, >but we are not there yet!!! > >Amara > > > 453 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 6:30pm Subject: sati , comment s on tape Jonathan kindly sent me tapes of the discuusions in Bangkok earlier this month. There is an interesting part about a young man who is keen to have sati and is curious about what it is. In the past he went on meditation retreats and felt that he could see progress and awareness growing, but over the last few years he has started to study Abhidhamma and tried to understand anatta. Apparently he understands that anatta is the key to buddhism but he cant fathom why he is not having direct experinece of realities yet. Khun sujin explained that in the past he was always trying to get something but true sati comes with detachment - it is not about getting something at all. khun Ell commented that he told her that he "just wants to have sati one time" than he will be confident. Again this is lobha - and in the beginning sati, even true sati, is too weak to stand out. Amara made the comment, which I think is pertinent, that he was looking for some banner or flashing light which will say "yes, here it is this is sati, now you know whaT IT is".(I paraphrase her words) Of course until sati has developed sufficiently and reached the level of satipatthana stages it is not so clear. khun sujin noted that it is understanding that is important. -Thus someone may talk about anatta but unless they really grasp that there is no one, nothing , no way to control or make anything arise, one will have these misunderstandings and desires that block the path. Ivan noted that even when someone is saying they want understanding or sati they should realize that at those moments there is just cetasikas and cittas arising, no self. Let me know if I misrepresented anyone where I summarised the discussion. Robert 454 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 7:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Dear Jonathan and Robert, Many thanks for your interesting observation about the young man and his "attempt" to "acquire" sati, which took him farther away from understanding. I missed the discussions in Bkk 2 weeks ago because I misunderstood the directions to Khunying Noparat's house. But last week I did finally meet Achaan Suchin for the first time and went with her to the center in Thonburi. She is a fantastic teacher who is ever so patient and understanding of her students, even ones like me who are just starting in kindergarten, so to speak. The other students are full of encouragement and I can't thank everyone enough for all they have given me. But, I noticed that you mentioned tapes of the meetings in Bkk. Is there anyone here in Bkk who might loan me those tapes to that I may copy them? Replaying the tapes of my first lesson with Achaan was wonderful for me and helped me to understand a lot better what was being said. At the time of the meeting, however, I felt totally overwhelmed and so the tapes are a wonderful teaching tool. Many thanks, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape > > Jonathan kindly sent me tapes of the discuusions in > Bangkok earlier this month. > There is an interesting part about a young man who is > keen to have sati and is curious about what it is. In > the past he went on meditation retreats and felt that > he could see progress and awareness growing, but over > the last few years he has started to study Abhidhamma > and tried to understand anatta. > Apparently he understands that anatta is the key to > buddhism but he cant fathom why he is not having > direct experinece of realities yet. > Khun sujin explained that in the past he was always > trying to get something but true sati comes with > detachment - it is not about getting something at all. > khun Ell commented that he told her that he "just > wants to have sati one time" than he will be > confident. > Again this is lobha - and in the beginning sati, even > true sati, is too weak to stand out. > Amara made the comment, which I think is pertinent, > that he was looking for some banner or flashing light > which will say "yes, here it is this is sati, now you > know whaT IT is".(I paraphrase her words) Of course > until sati has developed sufficiently and reached the > level of satipatthana stages it is not so clear. > > khun sujin noted that it is understanding that is > important. -Thus someone may talk about anatta but > unless they really grasp that there is no one, nothing > , no way to control or make anything arise, one will > have these misunderstandings and desires that block > the path. > Ivan noted that even when someone is saying they want > understanding or sati they should realize that at > those moments there is just cetasikas and cittas > arising, no self. > > Let me know if I misrepresented anyone where I > summarised the discussion. > Robert > 455 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 8:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Dear Betty, I am so pleased that everyone is helping you now in Bangkok. I truly respect those like you who have the accumulations, patience, and interest to develop this most difficult of paths. Yesterday I received the translation of the Buddhavamsa commentary, the Madhuratthavilasini, from the Pali text society. Here the Buddha's past lives when he met other Buddhas are detailed as well as the lives of these other Buddhas. It is inspiring to read about the paramis they developed over incalculably long periods of time. When developing wisdom in countless lives they went from wise men to wise men asking them numerous questions - what is skilful, what is unskilful and more. They gave up kingdoms, wives, children, their eyes, even their lives over and over again so that they could become Buddhas and help people like us. Another point on the tapes: Jonathan said that if that young man kept listening and contemplating Abhidhamma than he was making the conditions for right understanding to grow. But Khun Sujin said it also depended on the type of cittas - Thus someone could study but if they had the motivation of getting something for self then there were no real conditions for wisdom to accumulate. "I noticed that you mentioned tapes of the > meetings in Bkk. Is there > anyone here in Bkk who might loan me those tapes to > that I may copy them?" They have a thousand or more tapes in Thai language in bangkok but English ones are harder to find.I have quite a number of tapes here in Japan and will send you an assortment (I am a little slow sometimes). Just send me your address. Robert 456 From: Mike Potter Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 8:49pm Subject: Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Theresa, Thank you for your comments. I no longer visit this list regularly. Please excuse my late response. >In my own practice, I notice that the strong the Big-C gained from >the Samadhi practice helps me gain easier and faster the small-C >during Vipassana practice, and thus, I can keep Vipassana Mindfulness >going continuously for a longer period of time.. Yet, I can use the >small-C alone to strengthen the small-C without the need to switch >over to practicing Samadhi for more big-C.. This is true in my practice as well. I find it to be skillful means, especially on retreat, to alternate between Big-C and small-C until conditions are present to support the arising of small-C immediately upon focusing my awareness in the present moment. As you say, the Big-C conditions an easier and faster entry into small-C in Vipassana practice until those conditions arise. But my principal practice is Vispassana and I use Samadhi a merely a "tool" to support a deepening awareness through Insight. >You referred to "awakening".. >I guess you stress the development of Insight.. Yes. >For me, the small-C is directly linked to and helps develop Insight.. >If we have the small-C steady, we can keep Mindfulness going and >developing Insight in any situation. ((..While living.. During our >normal life.. Even in stressful situations.. When our mind screams >for help, wants to give up everything and quit..)) For me, the big-C, >which is useful to help gain and keep the small-C during >Vipassana/Insight, does not contribute directly to the development >and growth of Insight.. I concur. >"CONDITIONS".. Kamma.. that's our ruler.. :-)) >We don't control our meditation, but we are in it.. Anatta.. :-)) >Let us relax and be mindful.. :-)) >Moment by moment, we walk the Noble Path.. >We must experience the three Lakkhanas in order to go toward >Nibbana.. :-)) Well said. You may not use all of the terminology of a scholar, but the insights you have gained through your direct experience are clear from your comments. While the "official" terminology may be helpful in communicating concepts with others, and I won't dissuade you from learning it, your manner of expression is fresh and clear - and more importantly, is based on your own experience - so don't lose that quality in search of the "right words". :-) > Only seven STAGES ?? There are about 14 or 19 LEVELS of Insight.. I > don't have the Insight Levels memorized, and I don't recall the > exact numbers of Insight Levels.. Venerable Mahasi listed them in > his books, somewhere.. Either STAGES or LEVELS, let us move forward > with Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. :-)) The Dhamma, like a hologram, can be gleaned from many angles - each "view" being a gateway to the whole. The seven stages to which I referred are the seven stages of purification set forth in the Visuddhimagga. These stages, along with the related "insight knowleges," are listed on the website I maintain, The Ganges Sangha. See http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/Purification.htm For additional information, read The Progress of Insight - A Modern treatise on Buddhist Satipatthana Meditation by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. It may be read online at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html > Have you thought of the term "Living Meditation" ?? > Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) > Mindfulness is life, Life is mindfulness.. > Oh well, that's my goal.. :-)) Yes!! "Living Meditation" IS Mindfulness, and it is to be practiced in all postures - at all times! As the Buddha said in the Satipatthana Sutta: "And again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu in going forward and in going back, [he] applies clear comprehension; in looking straight ahead and in looking away from the front, [he] applies clear comprehension; in wearing the three robes, and in carrying the bowl, [he] applies clear comprehension; in eating, drinking, chewing and savoring, [he] applies clear comprehension; in obeying the calls of nature, [he] applies clear comprehension; in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking, speaking, and in keeping silent, [he] applies clear comprehension." So mindfulness it is not to be practiced by JUST sitting on a cushion; yet sitting meditation is also a skillful means to develop Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. It has been my experience that a regular sitting meditation practice supports a deep level of Insight practice in everyday life. Each person has to find what works for them, based on their own unique accumulations. > Samadhi and Vipassana are both "tools" to help us walk the Noble > Path.. Let us encourage each of us to walk.. Let us not worry much > about falling off the cliff, because there are no cliff and no side > to the Noble Path.. hehehe.. And no "one" who is mindful - just mindfulness rising and falling ... With metta, Mike 457 From: Alan Weller Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 9:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] marana to metta Robert and Sarah, As I understand metta has to be towards real beings, present or not i.e you cannot have metta to a fictitious character as in a film or novel or statue, but you could have metta towards someone on the internet. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] marana to metta > Robert, > > I have heard Kh Sujin say that the time for metta is when one is with other > people and as a general rule I think this is when it can and does arise, but > I may have misunderstood this to mean one must be with other people. > Obviously there can be metta while speaking on the phone or writing to > others at the computer, for example, because, as you say, a concept, a > person is the object. Like dana, however, it must be practised and developed > in daily life naturally and there must be right understanding(at level of > samatha or vipassana) for it to develop. I think the point was that it > cannot be developed by sitting alone in a quiet room 'willing' it to develop > or just repeating 'may all beings be happy...' > > Thanks for yr correction...We can start a list of Cambodia topics..metta, > marana. I find the emphasis on welfare of others below to be helpful. > > 'As to characteristic, etc., loving kindness is characterized here as > promoting the aspect of welfare. Its function is to prefer welfare. it is > manifested as the removal of annoyance. its proximate cause is seeing > lovableness in beings. it succeeds when it makes ill-will subside, and it > fails when it produces (selfish) affection.' > > Vis (ch 1X,93) p274 (quoted in Cetasikas by Nina Van G where she gives a lot > more helpful detail about metta) > Sarah > > >Dear Sarah, > >just one point. You said that metta cannot be > >developed without beings been present. > > > >Do you mean that one has to be in their presence? > >If so I think that is incorrect. Metta takes a > >concept, a person, as object. But the person does not > >have to be in the same room or even same country for > >metta towards them to arise. > >Robert > > 458 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 9:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] marana to metta dear Alan, Interesting point. In the Visuddhimagga it also notes that a monk was developing metea to his teacher. But he didnt know the teacher had died - it is said that the he failed because of this. This is talking about development to the stage of JHNAn though, so i wondered if there could still be moments of metta to a dead person? Perhaps not. The vissudhmagga also notes that we can have dosa to inanimate objects but not metta. I always wondered about metta to characters in a film - sometimes I feel touched by a movie, some emotion is present. Sometimes one feels something that resembles compassion? It all shows how difficult kusala is , how hard to be sure, how rapidly cittas change, and it shows the omniscience of the Buddha that he comprehended it all. --- Alan Weller wrote: > Robert and Sarah, > As I understand metta has to be towards real beings, > present or not i.e you > cannot have metta to a fictitious character as in a > film or novel or statue, > but you could have metta towards someone on the > internet. 459 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 10:48pm Subject: Fwd: Some advices.. Hello all, Here is a message posted the dhamma list.. I hope you like it.. Theresa. ======================================== From: "Huang Jing Rui" Subject: Some advices... Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:33:07 +0800 Dear friends, Several days ago, due to the Global Conference on Buddhism, several kind and wise Venerables had arrived at Singapore. Here, I pick 4 of the Venerables...and share with all what I had heard from them. =) Pls take note that what I'd typed below may not be the exact words of what the Venerables had said. I hope that I have successfully brought out, at least, the essence of what they meant. However, pls do not place much trust in my memory and understanding of their teachings. Whatever you find relevant and useful, pls keep them in mind and abide by them. Whatever you find irrelevant and doubtful, pls cast them away. =) PS: If you find them long, pls don't delete. Just read one per day. =) They might be useful to you. With regards, Jing Rui ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ven. K. Sri Dhammanada: 1) After hearing my speech, if you feel happy, it is not me who caused your happiness. It is you, upon listening to my speech, arouses happiness in yourself. If you feel unhappy after hearing my speech, it is not me who caused the unhappiness. It is you, upon listening to my speech, arouses unhappiness in yourself. Ven. Tenzin Palmo: 1) It is good that you have started to learn the Dharma when you're so young. Now after hearing all the Dharma talks, go home, and PRACTICE HARD. The Dharma is very simple. But it is not easy. Simple and easy are different. It is not so easy to practice. You will require patience and perseverance. Claude Anshin Thomas: 1) We are all interconnected together. The elements that our body is made up of are the SAME elements that make up the Earth! The stars are in me. The clouds are in me. The grass and the trees are in me. The Earth is in me. :) 2) You can learn something from the experiences in my life, because your own experiences are as dramatic to you as my experiences are to me. 3) A doctor asked Anshin, "In my work, sometimes I give drugs (such as painkillers) to my patients, to help them relieve their pain and suffering. However, I know that such drugs when taken on the long term, contributes to the shortening of the patient's lifespan. As I'm a Buddhist, I'm often in a dilemma on whether what I'm doing is correct." Anshin answered, "I cannot tell you this is right and that is wrong.....Do not fill your mind with "shoulds" and "should nots".....Now, start to practice meditation. Take note of every moment, and live in the present moment. In the situation, observe the conditions and you will understand what to do......We have to take up the responsibility of making decisions and choices, and not to look for an instruction/law to rely upon." **Side Note: A teacher of mine added this remark, "The problem with the doctor is, he thinks of not making mistakes instead of taking up the responsibilities for the mistakes he makes." ** 4) "Do you know where the Buddha is?" Anshin asked. We all shook our heads. Pointing at the space in front of him, he said to me,"Come and sit here. Come." Nervously I walked over and sat at the space he pointed. "Here is Buddha." he said as he pointed to me. "Here is Buddha." he said as he pointed to the others. "Here is Buddha." he said as he pointed to the table, the bed, the.....etc. "Everywhere is Buddha. Everywhere is temple." As Anshin rattled on, I started to feel uneasy..and during a short pause in his speech, I immediately seized the chance to slip back to my own seat. Everybody laughs. :P Surprised, he asked, "Why did you go back?" "Errr...." "Were you frightened?" he asked in a concerned tone. "Errr...not really frightened....." I looked nervously at him and sensed a kind of concern and encouragement from his eyes. Plucking my courage, I answered, "I feel.......out of place." "Oh..OUT of place!" he exclaimed with slight surprise. Gently and slowly, he said, "I hope you will slowly feel IN place. :) Because everywhere is your home. Everywhere is Buddha." 5) Anshin places a small box on his palm. "TRY to take it out of my hand." he said. My friend reaches out for the box and picks it up. "No....no." Anshin stopped her, "You didn't listen carefully. I said....TRY to take it out." My friend looked confused. She reached out for the box and slowly picked it up again.. "No...:) I said TRY." Anshin smiled. My friend was even more blurrrr...she reached out for the box and couldn't decide whether to take it out or not. A broad grin appeared on Anshin's face. "You see..it is impossible. :) There is no such thing as TRY to do....there is only DO or NOT DO." 6) You feel that you are different from me. You wish that you will change and become like me. In this way, we are already separate. 7) The major part of Zen practice is Meditation. Meditation, however, is not just about sitting meditation. It also consists of walking meditation, sleeping meditation, eating meditation, telephone meditation......In fact, LIFE IS MEDITATION. They are not separate. Ajahn Brahmavamso: 1) People learn meditation for different reasons. Some meditate so that the mind will be peaceful. Some meditate so as to gain insight. It is just like two people climbing a high mountain. One climbs with the wish to view the spectacular sights from the top of the mountain, while the other climbs to breathe the fresh air on top. However, upon reaching the top, both men will be able to: 1) view the sights; 2) breathe the fresh air. So is meditation. No matter whether one sits so that the mind will be peaceful, or so as to gain insight, when the meditation is good, one will experience both peace and insight. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No dependence upon letters or words, but direct pointing to the source of human mind! No stepping up any ladders, but mounting straight to the Buddha-land. --Bodhidharma (d.534) 460 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 14, 2000 11:54pm Subject: About the practice (was About Concentration) Mike, I read your post with interest. There are a number of points worth discussing in it, but I would like to take just one. You said— >So mindfulness it is not to be practiced by JUST sitting on a >cushion; yet sitting meditation is also a skilful means to develop >Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. It has been >my experience that a regular sitting meditation practice supports a >deep level of Insight practice in everyday life. May I suggest that your experience has been based on the premise that the practice must begin with some form of sitting practice, and proceeds from there. This of course is how most people take the teachings to be. Any person who begins that way will naturally have the experience you have recounted. But does this premise find support in the Tripitika? Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as being prime time for the development of the path. Implicit in the Buddha’s teaching is the potential for awareness at some level of the reality arising at the present moment, without the need for a particular form of practice. If one understands the teachings in this light, one’s experience is bound to be wholly different from that you have given. And one of the most important differences is the absence of any idea of being able to make awareness arise by undertaking a certain form of practice. It is understanding the conditions for the arising of awareness at a time not of one’s own choosing that is the key to the development of the path. Jonothan 461 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 5:59am Subject: About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Hello Mike, Would you please explain the "link" (similarities?) between the Vipassana practice as I have known, learned and practiced, and the "eaching" (wrong term?) of Sujin Boriharnwanaket.. I ask for your explanations, because it seems that you, Mike, have knowledge of both practices/teachings: Sujin's and Mahasi's "techniques/teachings" (terms?).. As I know, there is only one Buddha's teaching.. I guess that the confusion or the difference in views is only because of the students' or meditators' comprehension of Buddha's teaching.. Robert sent me three books: (1) "Realities and Concepts", (2) "Taking Refuge in Buddhism", and (3) "Buddhism In Daily Life".. I am a very slow reader, so it will be sometimes before I will get through all of them.. Besides, I must spend time with learning something to re-new my old career so that I can look for a job to feed myself and my sons.. I have read few areas from the three books, and found that what I have practiced, experienced and understood is not at all different from what Sujin Boriharnwanaket explained.. In fact, Sujin explains extremely clear what I experienced in my own practice and what I learned from my teachers and books of other respectful Venerables/commentators.. Q # 1 : Why do discussions on this list seem to stress on the "differences in views", whereas it seems to me that there is no difference ?? Sitting is one of the four natural postures of a human being, and so Sitting Meditation is an off-course.. During Sitting Meditation, the body is not moving and the eyes are probably closed, and so, the number of distractions reduces drastically.. The benefits of Sitting Meditation is appreciated because the reduced number of distractions.. Sitting Meditation is a good condition for the arise of Concentration.. I have followed the Vipassana practice taught by Venerable Mahasi, and meditated in all 4 postures (ie, sitting, standing, walking, and lying-down).. If we are mindful, we should be able to know when "Self" is present and when "Self-less" is present.. When Mindfulness is continuous, there is no chance for "Self".. Q # 2 : Is there a belief that Sitting Meditation is needless or useless ?? (( I believe that it is crucial to not miss Sitting Meditation as part of our practice, because we sit many times during the day, in a car, on a chair, in bed, on the floor, on the meditation cushion, at work, at home, on a stool, in the yard, etc. )) Q # 3 : What does your own personal experience tell you about the suggestion that meditators should not bother with Sitting Meditation at all but they should simply carry on their lives as life goes ?? (( My own experience tells me that Sitting Meditation helps condition my mind so that Concentration and Mindfulness would be more continuous and gained much easier during my normal-living daily practice.. In terms of Anatta, Sitting Meditation is a *condition* to help arise Concentation and Insight, and eventually, meditators can gain both Concentration and Insight -- at the drop of a hat -- or as soon as a person sits down any place anywhere.. )) Anatta is one of the three Lakkhanas; Meditators must experience and understand Anatta.. I agree.. When communicating, languages ask for "subject + verb" to make a sentence.. I find it challenging to describe Dhammas or true experiences without using the subject "I" and "concepts" (even Pali terms or whatever).. Realities, true realities, can be known only by the meditator ("I", "concept") right in the mindful moment whenever the right condition (another concept) happens.. Q # 4 : Have you found a good way to communicate your experiences (realities) as dana to dhamma friends, if they have not experienced the same realities as you did ?? (( By the way, I am very happy that you understand what I wrote with my ppor layman terms.. :-)) Dhammas/realities can be easily understood by those who have similar experiences.. Before I gain certain experience, I find others' experiences my encouragement, because they are proofs to me that Buddha's Dhamma still work and increase my Faith on Triple Gem.. I do hope that all meditators can see others' experiences as encouragement and nothing more.. )) My questions are not directed to "correctness" or judgment of any kind.. The concern is on how discussions between dhamma friends could be most benificial to all of us.. I hope discussions on this list could help create the right conditions for Sila - Concentration - Insight (the Noble Path) to arise in each and everyone of us, naturally and continuously.. I love to loose to discussions as long as my friends and I, somehow, become more mindful of ourselves.. I have written messages with a hope that my writings will be a condition to remind Mindfulness (the good sankhara) in all of us.. I'm grateful that members of this list (and you are one of them) have shown Metta in the posted messages.. May we be mindful to know when anatta is present and when it's not.. With metta, Theresa. 462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 9:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Betty, I am glad you were eventually able to meet Khun Sujin. I am reminded of my experience when I first arrived in Bangkok, and the long trek by bus(es) across town to find Wat Bovorn and join the weekly talks. It almost didn't happen! I notice that Robert has kindly offered to send you some tapes of previous discussions (anumodana, Robert), and I am sure you will benefit from these. However, as you are in Bangkok, I urge you to take every opportunity to meet Khun Sujin and others and to join in live discussions and ask your own questions. Because there is no substitute for participating in this way. The tapes are a useful resource for those times when you cannot take part in discussions yourself. My experience in Bangkok has always been that if you show interest, the occasions happen. And please feel free to raise anything on this list, too. Jonothan 463 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Dear theresa, As this was a letter to Mike, I comment on one point only. --- > Q # 1 : Why do discussions on this list seem to > stress on > the "differences in views", whereas it seems to me > that there is no > difference ?? Maybe there is no difference? You can investigate carefully and check. I just saw a book that said there is no difference between the core of Buddhism and the core of christianity- just that people misunderstand the teachings. Maybe this is true - we should investigate. But is not discussion one means of coming to understanding of what other people believe and of examining what we ourseleves believe? I have found that I have many blindspots- areas where I had truly thought I understood the Buddha's teaching -and that discussing with friends like Jonathan and Ivan and Khun Sujin has helped me to see those. It would be very easy for me on this discussion group to just say to everyone - great, thanks for your comment, I agree with everything you say. No doubt all would feel very cheery but would any understanding come? Any furtherance of knowledge? The commentaries say that a key ingredient for wisdom to grow is discussuion with those who can point out fine details of the teaching. This is the advantage of meeting with someone like Khun Sujin. Someone who is ready to answer question after question - A thousand is not too many. We need to discuss and study and learn many details so that there can be true distinguishing between sati and samadhi . It is hard for most people to understand the difference between the two. Thus the Buddha taught so many details so that those with accumulations and interest could learn to distinguish realities directly. I think we need to often examine our ourselves (myself very much included) . Do we really want to know what the Buddha taught? Are we really true students, prepared to give up even our most deeply held ideas if we learn more? Or do we just want to feel happy? Are we merely looking for justification for our own way of thinking? Or are we looking for understanding no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel? If we are truly after understanding then when someone disagrees with us we feel gratitude. We have the chance to examine our understanding, to see whether they can teach us something new. This can never mean that we always agree with what they say- but we welcome the chance to consider their words. If we think they have misunderstood something, then, if we really want to help them, if we realize that samasara is so long, and painful, we will try to point out their clingings. We want to help. Robert 464 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Dear Jonathan, Many thanks for your kind encouragement. I plan to do precisely that. This Saturday will again go to the center and continue talking with Achaan Suchin. But in addition, I also wanted to hear what I had missed on the day you all were here 2 weeks ago. You are absolutely right: when the interest is there and the time is right, it all happens. I really like the practice of building awareness in everyday life and find this far more effective than sitting meditation which I had tried to do, with only moderate success, for many years. But the daunting thing is trying to learn all the Pali terminology and classifications. That is a tremendous intellectual exercise, but hope it will become internalized in time. with metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape > Betty, > > I am glad you were eventually able to meet Khun Sujin. I am reminded of my > experience when I first arrived in Bangkok, and the long trek by bus(es) > across town to find Wat Bovorn and join the weekly talks. It almost didn't > happen! > > I notice that Robert has kindly offered to send you some tapes of previous > discussions (anumodana, Robert), and I am sure you will benefit from these. > However, as you are in Bangkok, I urge you to take every opportunity to meet > Khun Sujin and others and to join in live discussions and ask your own > questions. Because there is no substitute for participating in this way. > The tapes are a useful resource for those times when you cannot take part in > discussions yourself. > > My experience in Bangkok has always been that if you show interest, the > occasions happen. And please feel free to raise anything on this list, too. > > Jonothan > 465 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Best wishes in your study Betty, "But the daunting > thing is trying to learn all the Pali terminology > and classifications. That > is a tremendous intellectual exercise, but hope it > will become internalized > in time." > It is useful to learn the Pali as the meanings are precise, whereas The English translations have assorted connotations. When we see that the terminology of the Abhidhamma is actually very precise desciptions of the realities that are appearing right at this moment then we see that it is very different from an academic subject. Also the idea is not to become good at Pali or an expert at Abhidhamma but to develop wisdom. It is always the meaning, not the terminolgy that is important. If we see this then even at the moments we are studying or thinking about Dhamma there can be direct awareness of whatever realities are arising. Robert 466 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 0:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Theresa, I fully agree with you when you say- >As I know, there is only one Buddha's teaching. I guess that the >confusion or the difference in views is only because of the students' >or meditators' comprehension of Buddha's teaching.. We are all I think interested in understanding the Buddha’s teaching and in that teaching only, not someone else’s teaching or someone’s understanding of the Buddha’s teaching. I wonder if we could agree on one other point. Correct understanding of the Buddha’s teaching must begin with understanding at the intellectual level. And correct understanding at an intellectual level comes from the study and discussion of the teachings. In other words, our intellectual understanding must always be in advance (very far in advance, I would suggest) of our realisation of the teachings. But how often do we hear teachers urging their followers to take just the opposite approach! The problem with pursuing a method of practice without having the necessary intellectual-level foundation is that our purported verification of that experience is purely subjective and is coloured by our own (substantial) ignorance. I think the questions you have asked of Mike are very pertinent in this regard. Jonothan 467 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 1:25pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Some advices.. Theresa, Thank you for posting these interesting excerpts, I hope you don't mind my making a few comments, > Ven. Tenzin Palmo: > > > > 1) It is good that you have started to learn the Dharma when you're > so young. Now after hearing all the Dharma talks, go home, and > PRACTICE > HARD. This makes me wonder why the speaker does not see that in the days of the Buddha, so many people reached diverse stages of wisdom according to their accumulations, DURING the time they were LISTENING TO HIS TEACHINGS? They did not have to rush home and practice hard or whatever, but they must have UNDERSTOOD AND STUDIED WHILE HE WAS SPEAKING to have attained anything as he finished. > Claude Anshin Thomas: > > > > 1) We are all interconnected together. The elements that our body is > made up of are the SAME elements that make up the Earth! The stars > are in me. > The clouds are in me. The grass and the trees are in me. The Earth > is in me. :) I think if he had carried this to the logical conclusion he would have added, in the end there is no me nor the universe, just nama and rupa. =^_^= > 3) A doctor asked Anshin, "In my work, sometimes I give drugs (such > as painkillers) to my patients, to help them relieve their pain and > suffering. > However, I know that such drugs when taken on the long term, > contributes to the shortening of the patient's lifespan. As I'm a > Buddhist, I'm often in a dilemma on whether what I'm doing is > correct." > > Anshin answered, "I cannot tell you this is right and that is > wrong.....Do not fill your mind with "shoulds" and "should > nots".....Now, start to practice meditation. Take note of every > moment, and live in the present moment. In the situation, observe > the conditions and you will understand what to do......We have to > take up the responsibility of making decisions and choices, and not > to look for an instruction/law to rely upon." I think the abhidhamma can provide a different answer: at the moment of decision making if one has sati, one can distinguish between the different cetana cetasika arising: is it kusala cetana to help or akusala cetana to harm. That the doctor must answer himself, and the resulting vipaka is entirely his own. > 4) "Do you know where the Buddha is?" Anshin asked. We all shook our > heads. > Pointing at the space in front of him, he said to me,"Come and sit > here. Come." Nervously I walked over and sat at the space he > pointed. "Here is Buddha." he said as he pointed to me. "Here is > Buddha." he said as he pointed to the others. "Here is Buddha." he > said as he pointed to the table, the bed, the.....etc. "Everywhere > is Buddha. Everywhere is temple." As Anshin rattled on, I started to > feel uneasy..and during a short pause in his speech, I immediately > seized the chance to slip back to my own seat. Everybody > laughs. :P Surprised, he asked, "Why did you go > back?" "Errr...." "Were you frightened?" he asked in a concerned > tone. "Errr...not really frightened....." I looked nervously at him > and sensed a kind of concern and encouragement from his eyes. > Plucking my courage, I answered, "I feel.......out of > place." "Oh..OUT of place!" he exclaimed with slight surprise. Gently > and slowly, he said, "I hope you will slowly feel IN place. :) > Because everywhere is your home. Everywhere is Buddha." I think there is confusion (in fact there is a lot there, all around) between the Buddha and God here. In the Tipitaka, parinibbana is complete extinction, never to return again, although when one 'sees' or understands the dhamma, one is said to 'see' the Buddha, or at least parts of his panna. But to confuse people is never part of the dhamma, which is to clarify and enlighten people according to their level of accumulations. > Ajahn Brahmavamso: > > > > 1) People learn meditation for different reasons. Some meditate so > that the mind will be peaceful. Some meditate so as to gain > insight. It is > just like two people climbing a high mountain. One climbs with the > wish to view the spectacular sights from the top of the mountain, > while the other climbs to breathe the fresh air on top. However, > upon reaching the top, both men will be able to: 1) view the sights; > 2) breathe the fresh air. So is meditation. No matter whether one > sits so that the mind will be peaceful, or so as to gain insight, > when the meditation is good, one will experience both peace and > insight. This is not according to the Tipitaka, because the Buddha had attained the highest jhana, as did his teachers Utakatapas and Aralatapas yet he knew that was not the path and discovered vipassana. The first people he thought of sharing the knowledge with were his very teachers but they had passed away to the arupa-brahma world where they had no more ears or eyes to receive his manifestations, in the Tipitaka they are lost for impossibly long eons while we are here, even with 2500 years separating us from the Buddha, able to catch glimpses of his wisdom. I might add that the Tipitaka is predicted to disappear, to the last word, in about 2500 more, and that the first pitaka to go will be the Abhidhamma, so we are lucky indeed to be able to study it in it's fullest form if one wishes. Amara 468 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 1:37pm Subject: Re: About practices/teachings Hello Jonothan and Robert, I have more questions but no answer.. I am listening to learn.. << ------ I wonder if we could agree on one other point. Correct understanding of the Buddha's teaching must begin with understanding at the intellectual level. And correct understanding at an intellectual level comes from the study and discussion of the teachings. In other words, our intellectual understanding must always be in advance (very far in advance, I would suggest) of our realisation of the teachings. But how often do we hear teachers urging their followers to take just the opposite approach! --------- >> Intellectual understanding comes from learning/reading.. Insight (panna, wisdom ?) comes from practice Buddha's Dhamma.. The Noble Path developed in three stages, ie, Sila-Concentration-Insight, is how Insight is developed.. Is that right ? << ----- The problem with pursuing a method of practice without having the necessary intellectual-level foundation is that our purported verification of that experience is purely subjective and is coloured by our own (substantial) ignorance. -------- >> Let the Truths speak for themselves.. Buddha taught the unshakable Truths.. Should we doubt Buddha's teaching ? Experience is subjective.. Yes !! Is Vedana subjective ? Is Rupa subjective ? Is Sanna, Sankhara and Vinnana, all, subjective ? Is the five aggregates subjective ? Is the Four Foundations of Mindfulness based on subjectivity ? Is Birth, Aging, Sickness, and Death, all, subjective ? Is "Dukkha", the first Noble Truth, subjective ? Is "the Cause of Dukkha" subjective ? Is whatever known through Mindfulness subjective ? How do we know (rely on Mindfulness) that we have Dosa or Lobha without subjectivity ? Until Arahantship is reached, is there anything not based on subjectivity ? Until Arahantship is reached, Ignorance is in everything, isn't it ? If all of the above are subjective, where is "objectivity" or "Realities" or "Truths" to us, blind non-Arahants ?? Because Ignorance is "I/me", "I/me" need guidance of good teachers.. Ought we know when we are hurt (Dukkha), subjectively ? Ought we know when we are not hurt (even the end of one temporary instance of Dukkha), subjectively ? Ought we need approval of a qualified teacher to tell us that we have Dukkha ? Ought we compare our experience to Buddha's words to be certain that we have Dukkha ? If Dukkha is the Truth, we can identify it ourselves; is that right ? "I" see Dukkha in me in many forms.. Should I need someone telling me : "Now, Theresa, this experience you are having is definitely Dukkha.. You must learn what it means.. I now approve that you have actually and really experienced Dukkha.. Before now, you have not.." What should I rely on to know any form of physical Dukkha if I am paraplegic ?? What should I rely on to know any form of mental Dukkha if I am in a vegetable state, a coma, or severely mental retarded ?? With these conditions, can I ever experience Dukkha or Nibbana ?? Subjectivity ? Experience ? Ignorance ? or what ?? The concern (the main object of meditation in the current moment) is the current sankhara, the current Dukkha or the current end-of- Dukkha.. With the extremely fast rate of changes of Nama and Rupa, who else, beside the meditator, must identify Dukkha or not-Dukkha ? What if "I" made a mistake in thinking that "I" reached Nibbana and felt extremely proud of "myself", until one day, "I" fall flat on my face with hurt and pain ? Should we worry about Ignorance ? Or should we simply be mindful as much as we can ? Truths/Realities will teach me.. Before "I" want to hear, "I" will not hear or understand "correctly"; isn't it right ? Is it the reason for Right Speech calling for the right time to speak ? Subjectivity ? Condition ? Anatta ? Paramitta ? Kamma ? Should we encourage our friends to practice Mindfulness diligently ? Or should we insist that our friends see things "really as they are", the realities well spoken by Buddha and commentators ? Should we, with compassion for the inner peace and happiness subjectively felt by each dhamma friend, be happy with their achievement (?!) and support them when they are hurt ? Or should we insist that our friends understand what we have learned and understood ? Or should we encourage them to practice Buddha's Dhamma as they have learned from their teachers ? Experiences ? Subjectivity ? Buddha taught us the Truths, "the" answer.. Good teachers know the temperament of each students and how to guide each of them.. What is Buddha's very last words right before his death ? << Behold, O disciples, I exhort you. Subject to change are all component things. Strive on with diligence (vayadhamma samkhara, appamadena sampadetha). >> Is "striving" subjective and "self" ? Is "diligence" subjective and "self" ? How do disciples see Change (Impermanence) without "striving on with diligence" ? Without Mindfulness, can we see Change ? Without subjectivity, can we see Change ? Subjectivity is Change, isn't it ? Without Mindfulness, can we see "component things" as component things ? Buddha taught Mindfulness.. I don't have any answer, but I "strive on" with Mindfulness.. Am I wrong ? Dukkha will teach me in time according to my kamma and paramitta.. Never too soon, never too late, always on time, whenever that time is.. Let us be mindful.. Let us walk further on the Noble Path.. --- because "Self" is very much alive in many of us.. Anatta, until truly and directly experienced as Reality from moment to moment, is, to us, a theory, a subject of discussion, an encouragement for us to practice further, a learned concept, an intellectual knowledge.. May this message be the condition to wake up a series of Mindfulness sankhara in all of us.. May these Mindfulness sankharas be the condition for Insight and also Magga/Phala/Nibbana in all of us.. With metta, Theresa. 469 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 1:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Dear Theresa, Another point on your message to Mike, You wrote "When communicating, > languages ask > for "subject + verb" to make a sentence.. I find it > challenging to > describe Dhammas or true experiences without using > the subject "I" > and "concepts" (even Pali terms or whatever).. > Do not worry about this too much. We are only interested in the understanding (or misunderstanding )revealed by the words. Your meaning mostly comes through quite clearly. Even the Buddha used terms like I and mine and self as designations in daily life. These words are most useful to refer to concepts and we cannot dispense with concepts at all. Sometimes when I write on this list I minimize the use of words like me or I but this is merely a stylistic device that allows me to emphasize paramathha dhammas more clearly. It is the understanding behind the words that is important. I have met people who are expert in Abhidhamma but when I discuss with them it seems like they treat it as an academic subject. A body of knowledge rather than a description of realities that are happening right at this moment. Some people can talk about anatta but still not understand what it really means, even at the intellectual level. We are here to help each other learn more about what the Buddha really taught. Robert 470 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 1:57pm Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca > I would like to mention at his point that Sarah and I will be away for 2 > weeks plus as from this coming Friday, and we do not expect to have access > to the internet during that period, except perhaps very occasionally. So > don't be surprised if you don't hear from us for a while. > > Jonothan Jonothan and Sarah, Bon voyage and have a wonderful trip (with lots of sati too!), do drop us a line if ever possible! I so think there is a lot more fun when sati's around, there is so much to study that one is never lonely, and certainly a lot less dosa. Or is that just my accumulation of lobha again? More likely both! But seriously, it is wonderful that sati can arise anywhere any time, and I hope there are conditions for them to arise as often as possible, not only for the fringe benefits of pleasantness but your accumulation of knowledge during your trip as well as in your daily life, Amara 471 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 2:05pm Subject: Re: About practices/teachings Hello Robert, << ----- If we are truly after understanding then when someone disagrees with us we feel gratitude. We have the chance to examine our understanding, to see whether they can teach us something new. This can never mean that we always agree with what they say- but we welcome the chance to consider their words. If we think they have misunderstood something, then, if we really want to help them, if we realize that samasara is so long, and painful, we will try to point out their clingings. We want to help. -------- >> Do you know a good quote on the definition a "good" dhamma friend ? I guess it is good to have this reminder.. Yes ?? :-)) With metta, Theresa. 472 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Robert, a good summary and reminder that when there is wanting to have a little awareness or mindfulness, let alone have it all the time, there is a lack of understanding of the conditioned nature of the present reality...the minding or selection is always an indication of lobha, usually with wrong view. These summaries of discussions from the tapes are useful (even for those of us who were there). Betty, this talk and the last several discussions when we were in Bangkok were all officially recorded. Ivan & Ell may know where the professionally recorded ones are, but it would be useful if someone in Bkk could make sure a set of each is kept at the Foundation and catalogued for library use as I'm sure they do with the Thai ones. I see Robert is kindly sending you a set, p'haps after you've copied these they could also join the 'library collection'... So glad, Betty, you enjoyed meeting Khun Sujin. I highly recommend you record all the discussions and listen over and over again. Sarah >Jonathan kindly sent me tapes of the discuusions in >Bangkok earlier this month. >There is an interesting part about a young man who is >keen to have sati and is curious about what it is. In >the past he went on meditation retreats and felt that >he could see progress and awareness growing, but over >the last few years he has started to study Abhidhamma >and tried to understand anatta. >Apparently he understands that anatta is the key to >buddhism but he cant fathom why he is not having >direct experinece of realities yet. >Khun sujin explained that in the past he was always >trying to get something but true sati comes with >detachment - it is not about getting something at all. >khun Ell commented that he told her that he "just >wants to have sati one time" than he will be >confident. >Again this is lobha - and in the beginning sati, even >true sati, is too weak to stand out. > Amara made the comment, which I think is pertinent, >that he was looking for some banner or flashing light >which will say "yes, here it is this is sati, now you >know whaT IT is".(I paraphrase her words) Of course >until sati has developed sufficiently and reached the >level of satipatthana stages it is not so clear. > >khun sujin noted that it is understanding that is >important. -Thus someone may talk about anatta but >unless they really grasp that there is no one, nothing >, no way to control or make anything arise, one will >have these misunderstandings and desires that block >the path. >Ivan noted that even when someone is saying they want >understanding or sati they should realize that at >those moments there is just cetasikas and cittas >arising, no self. > >Let me know if I misrepresented anyone where I >summarised the discussion. >Robert 473 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape > >Another point on the tapes: Jonathan said that if that >young man kept listening and contemplating Abhidhamma >than he was making the conditions for right >understanding to grow. But Khun Sujin said it also >depended on the type of cittas - Thus someone could >study but if they had the motivation of getting >something for self then there were no real conditions >for wisdom to accumulate. > Yes, a good reminder...not the action or outer appearance that counts! Thanks Sarah 474 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca > >That is why Dukkha is unenduring or hard to endure while dukkha >dukkha >would mean a degree of dosa, while unsatisfactoriness is another >degree (as a torrent is to a drop of rain? But in the end with the >eradication of dosa, there would not be even hint of moisture left!). > > > > >One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, >Citta > > >(9-16) > > >Part IIa of the 'Summary'. > > > > This is an interesting discussion of Vedana but I could not found >anything > > directly on the present issues. > > >It talks about dosa that arises even as sympathetic sorrow. > > > > >The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or >unenduring, > > >it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, > > >unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only >impermanent in > > >the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in >temporary > > >usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, >never to > > >come again. > > > > The point is that this Dukkha is a characteristic separate and >distinct from > > the other characteristic of anicca, so impermanence should not be >the focus. > > As I understand it, the focus should be on insubstantiality (as >you have > > mentioned) and worthlessness. For some reason you seem to find the >usual > > term "unsatisfactory" in this context to be, well, unsatisfactory! > > > > In the end, of course, what is important is the direct >understanding >rather > > than the words used. > > > > Jonothan > > >I agree that in the end it is the study of the reality itself which >is >most important to the accumulation of panna. Still, to me lobha and >chanda can be very close and arise one with the other, but >unsatisfactoriness is certain to be dosa except for the arahanta, who >would recognize the qualities with kiriya citta and therefore be >completely indifferent. Once one is not satisfied, one cannot be >indifferent, I don't think. As we discussed the other day, one of >the >vipassana nana is to be indifferent before kusala nad akusala alike, >but we are not there yet!!! > >Amara > > > Amara, you have studied the abhidhamma in far more detail than most of us, but I think you've misunderstood the English meaning of unsatisfactory here. When we talk about all sankhara dhammas being dukkha or inherently unsatisfactory it has nothing at all to do with dosa of any level and nothing to do with being dissatisfied. As you so clearly say, the key connection is anicca..we cling to seeing, hearing etc, all of which are impermanent. Understanding the unsatisfactoriness (dukkha and as you say, not to be confused with dukkha dukkha) is part of the deeper understanding of the reality of seeing or hearing and the understanding (even at a beginning level) is light and kusala. if there is any dosa, it shows there is no understanding of the characteristic. Sarah 475 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & dosa >Fortunately, there were some occasions of remembering that dosa arising is >just the manifestation of accumulations for having dosa. As long as the >tendency is there it will find an object. However, the understanding of >that dosa as being not self is another thing altogether. And the stronger >the dosa, the more remote that possibility can seem. > >Jonothan > Jonothan, how could there be a self able to direct any realities when the evidence of the stong kilesa (against one's wishes) is so apparent? In between the dosa there may be a moment of understanding a reality or of at least intellectually seeing the danger of the kilesa and then the conditioned dosa arises again...anatta. Sarah 476 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Robert & Alan, I also doubt there can be metta to a dead person, certainly not to an inanimate object and not to a fictitious character. How about when watching the news on television, can there be metta? What if a message on the internet doesn't go through or if no one reads it? Well.... As I understand it, there must be an aspect of promoting the welfare of others.. Sarah > >dear Alan, >Interesting point. In the Visuddhimagga it also notes >that a monk was developing metea to his teacher. But >he didnt know the teacher had died - it is said that >the he failed because of this. This is talking about >development to the stage of JHNAn though, so i >wondered if there could still be moments of metta to a >dead person? Perhaps not. The vissudhmagga also notes >that we can have dosa to inanimate objects but not >metta. >I always wondered about metta to characters in a film >- sometimes I feel touched by a movie, some emotion is >present. Sometimes one feels something that resembles >compassion? It all shows how difficult kusala is , how >hard to be sure, how rapidly cittas change, and it >shows the omniscience of the Buddha that he >comprehended it all. > > 477 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:12pm Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > > > >That is why Dukkha is unenduring or hard to endure while dukkha > >dukkha > >would mean a degree of dosa, while unsatisfactoriness is anotxer > >degree (as a torrent is to a drop of rain? But in the end with the > >eradication of dosa, there would not be even hint of moisture left!). > > > > > > > >One of the places you could look would be at the end of ch. 10, > >Citta > > > >(9-16) > > > >Part IIa of the 'Summary'. > > > > > > This is an interesting discussion of Vedana but I could not found > >anything > > > directly on the present issues. > > > > > >It talks about dosa that arises even as sympathetic sorrow. > > > > > > > >The term Dukkha is comparable to the expression unendurable or > >unenduring, > > > >it can be both something hard to endure; or something perishable, > > > >unenduring, something that does not endure. It is not only > >impermanent in > > > >the sense of being there only for a time to be passed on as in > >temporary > > > >usage but also arises and falls away completely, at each instant, > >never to > > > >come again. > > > > > > The point is that this Dukkha is a characteristic separate and > >distinct from > > > the other characteristic of anicca, so impermanence should not be > >the focus. > > > As I understand it, the focus should be on insubstantiality (as > >you have > > > mentioned) and worthlessness. For some reason you seem to find the > >usual > > > term "unsatisfactory" in this context to be, well, unsatisfactory! > > > > > > In the end, of course, what is important is the direct > >understanding > >rather > > > than the words used. > > > > > > Jonothan > > > > > >I agree that in the end it is the study of the reality itself which > >is > >most important to the accumulation of panna. Still, to me lobha and > >chanda can be very close and arise one with the other, but > >unsatisfactoriness is certain to be dosa except for the arahanta, who > >would recognize the qualities with kiriya citta and therefore be > >completely indifferent. Once one is not satisfied, one cannot be > >indifferent, I don't think. As we discussed the other day, one of > >the > >vipassana nana is to be indifferent before kusala nad akusala alike, > >but we are not there yet!!! > > > >Amara > > > > > > > Amara, > you have studied the abhidhamma in far more detail than most of us, but I > think you've misunderstood the English meaning of unsatisfactory here. When > we talk about all sankhara dhammas being dukkha or inherently unsatisfactory > it has nothing at all to do with dosa of any level and nothing to do with > being dissatisfied. As you so clearly say, the key connection is anicca..we > cling to seeing, hearing etc, all of which are impermanent. Understanding > the unsatisfactoriness (dukkha and as you say, not to be confused with > dukkha dukkha) is part of the deeper understanding of the reality of seeing > or hearing and the understanding (even at a beginning level) is light and > kusala. if there is any dosa, it shows there is no understanding of the > characteristic. > Sarah Sarah, First I must say that I have not studied the Tipitaka as much as many people here, such as Robert, I still have so much more to read and inquire into, luckily we have Khun Sujin who has studied it for over 50 years and is a wonderful teacher so that we can ask her to explain what is not clear in our reasonings. As to the English terminology, I think it may be confusing to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory as opposed to the feeling unsattisfied, I would think unenduring would render a clearer understanding of the word. Many people might have trouble distinguishing the fine line between the two words, as probably I do. So long as there is a distinction between dukkha and dukkha dukkha, we're on the right track. This is why Khun Sujin prefers to use Pali terms, and explain the meanings instead of trying to find the exact verbatim translation which may be impossible in some languages, I think. Again we agree that it is the understanding that is important, Amara 478 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Sarah, Robert, Alan, I thought metta applys to the moment when our citta is kusala. So even when the person is dead, we can have a moment of metta toward the dead person's previous kamma for being able to be born as human being or being born at least with the two roots, alobha and adosa. Recently, I met a German friend, Mr. Dominique Bank. He likes the idea of the buddist teaching. But he is very very new. So it would be appreciated if our friends in Dhamma Study group can help and share something with him. I don't know how to explain things without using Pali language or convey in a much simplier and easier language for people to understanding the reality. I talked to him alittle about the six mind doors only. I really don't know how to start or explain anything simple to new people. So I hope you can help him. I have cc his email with this mail. Thankyou. with regards, Shin Lin From: Sarah Procter Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Robert & Alan, I also doubt there can be metta to a dead person, certainly not to an inanimate object and not to a fictitious character. How about when watching the news on television, can there be metta? What if a message on the internet doesn't go through or if no one reads it? Well.... As I understand it, there must be an aspect of promoting the welfare of others.. Sarah > >dear Alan, >Interesting point. In the Visuddhimagga it also notes >that a monk was developing metea to his teacher. But >he didnt know the teacher had died - it is said that >the he failed because of this. This is talking about >development to the stage of JHNAn though, so i >wondered if there could still be moments of metta to a >dead person? Perhaps not. The vissudhmagga also notes >that we can have dosa to inanimate objects but not >metta. >I always wondered about metta to characters in a film >- sometimes I feel touched by a movie, some emotion is >present. Sometimes one feels something that resembles >compassion? It all shows how difficult kusala is , how >hard to be sure, how rapidly cittas change, and it >shows the omniscience of the Buddha that he >comprehended it all. > > >--- Alan Weller wrote: > > Robert and Sarah, > > As I understand metta has to be towards real beings, > > present or not i.e you > > cannot have metta to a fictitious character as in a > > film or novel or statue, > > but you could have metta towards someone on the > > internet. > > > 479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta good points shinlin. It is a difficult subject. There can be moments of kusala when thinking of a dead person but are they metta or another type of kusala.? It is useful to discuss all this as it also helps to show that often what we think is metta is not metta, often not even kusala. I must confess I am a little out of my depth though. When we, for example, think about Khun Sujin sometimes there is kusala citta, even when we have no intention to contact her at that time - but is it metta or another type of kusala.? As sarah noted earlier we should save some of these questions for Khun Sujin. can you get your friend to join this internet discusion group? Then he would have many people to help him. Robert 480 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 1:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca > >First I must say that I have not studied the Tipitaka as much as many >people here, such as Robert, I still have so much more to read and >inquire into, luckily we have Khun Sujin who has studied it for over >50 years and is a wonderful teacher so that we can ask her to explain >what is not clear in our reasonings. As to the English terminology, >I think it may be confusing to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory as >opposed to the feeling unsattisfied, I would think unenduring would >render a clearer understanding of the word. Many people might have >trouble distinguishing the fine line between the two words, as >probably I do. So long as there is a distinction between dukkha >and dukkha dukkha, we're on the right track. This is why Khun Sujin >prefers to use Pali terms, and explain the meanings instead of trying >to find the exact verbatim translation which may be impossible in >some languages, I think. Again we agree that it is the understanding >that is important, > >Amara > Dear Amara, Unenduring sounds too close to impermanent to me..how about 'worthless'..perhaps that would cause less confusion than unsatisfactory... Even a moment of sati or panna is inherently worthless ..hence the development of detachment from all realities... I fully agree about the difficulty translating pali terms... Sarah Betty, just take yr time with the pali terms..you'll pick up a lot here, Actually it's the meaning and the understanding that is a lot more difficult than the terminology! 481 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 5:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Robert, When a moment of metta arise, doesn't it mean that all most all sobhana cetasika arises, except maybe not the panna ? So if at the moment, we see the dead person as that person's karuna, then the moment of that thought is metta which is dosa. I think it depends on the thought right after seeing the dead person. So if the thought is kusula thought, then the moment of metta arises after that. Pls correct me if I am going to a wrong view with this concept or understanding. regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta good points shinlin. It is a difficult subject. There can be moments of kusala when thinking of a dead person but are they metta or another type of kusala.? It is useful to discuss all this as it also helps to show that often what we think is metta is not metta, often not even kusala. I must confess I am a little out of my depth though. When we, for example, think about Khun Sujin sometimes there is kusala citta, even when we have no intention to contact her at that time - but is it metta or another type of kusala.? As sarah noted earlier we should save some of these questions for Khun Sujin. can you get your friend to join this internet discusion group? Then he would have many people to help him. Robert 482 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 1:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) >Q # 1 : Why do discussions on this list seem to stress on >the "differences in views", whereas it seems to me that there is no >difference ?? > >Sitting is one of the four natural postures of a human being, and so >Sitting Meditation is an off-course.. During Sitting Meditation, the >body is not moving and the eyes are probably closed, and so, the >number of distractions reduces drastically.. The benefits of Sitting >Meditation is appreciated because the reduced number of >distractions.. Sitting Meditation is a good condition for the arise >of Concentration.. I have followed the Vipassana practice taught by >Venerable Mahasi, and meditated in all 4 postures (ie, sitting, >standing, walking, and lying-down).. If we are mindful, we should be >able to know when "Self" is present and when "Self-less" is present.. >When Mindfulness is continuous, there is no chance for "Self".. > Theresa, like Robert, I hope you realise that we wish to help and exchanges and differences of view and experience are very healthy..this is how we can question and develop our understanding. I remember the Tibetan monks have often heated debates and exchanges on the abhidhamma....better than just agreeing we all have experienced great insights! Anyway, to get to the point, like you, as I mentioned before, I also used to follow a Mahasi meditation practice and think that it was better to be removed from distractions and try to have mindfulness all the time. But what is the motive? What is the goal? The goal at such times is to have more mindfulness for oneself and by being in a specific place in a specific position to try and control it. What about now? What is real? Not sitting or writing because these are concepts. Hardness, heat, visible object are rupas that appear now. It doesn't matter how many 'distractions' there are. Whether we're on the busy, crowded underground in Hong Kong or in a quiet room in a meditation centre, hardness is still that rupa experienced by the body sense. It shows a lack of confidence in the power of sati (awareness) if one has the idea that the object which it is aware of is easier when there are no 'distractions'. The key is to learn more about the objects of awareness and the difference between concepts and realities. It takes a lot of courage to understand realities and to realise that many of the levels of wisdom we thought we had attained are just figments of our imagination... better to know than to continue in ignorance, however. The difficulty is not in our use of terminology, but in the understanding or lack of it. from your dhamma friend, Sarah 483 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 6:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Mike, Good to see you back on the list. I make some comments on your letter to Theresa in the spirit that wisdom needs careful consideration of the Dhamma to develop. Whether you agree with anything I say is not important, what is useful is if it conditions any wise reflection. As you rightly say “Each person has to find what works for them, based on their own unique accumulations.” It really has to be our own development. I think you realize that vipassana is not some “technique”, something we can neatly package and dispense like TM. The Buddha himself considered that it was so profound and difficult to understand that he contemplated not teaching it. No one can understand it without having heard many details and having applied the teachings over and over in many lives. Thus we should not follow anyone blindly merely because he or she has a reputation or large following or because they agree with our preconceptions about the path. Investigation, over and over in different ways – that is what is needed. The good teachers help us by encouraging us to question again and again and again, and by encouraging us to study deeply the Tipitika. They explain that sati and panna are anatta, uncontrollable and that studying realities directly should be done without any hidden wish for quick insight. But whether anyone really listens depends on manifold factors. > in your letter to Theresa you wrote “And no "one" who is mindful - just mindfulness rising and falling ... “ Right, there is no one. Whether there is mindfulness or not. Even if we are absolutely certain that there is a self, sure that we are in control, still the truth is there are only a flux of conditions. No self, never was, never can be. You said “there is just mindfulness arising and falling away”. We could be more precise. The ancient scriptures explain that sense-door procees citas arise in a series of cittas. After there has been the brief moment when a sense cognition such as seeing arises (WHICH IS VIPAKA –THE RESULT OF KAMMA) after that there is santirana-citta and votthapanna citta which are also both vipakka cittas, result from past kamma. After that there are javanna cittas, atotal of seven and at these moments there can be either kusala or akusala or kiriya(with sati or without) then there are 2 moments of tadaramma citta which is vipaka moments of bhavanga citta, after that there can be minddoor processes which take the same object. Even the Buddha and the arahants have these same processes. In a flash of lightning millions of these processes occur. Which cittas then were javanna , which were vipaka, which were bhavanga? These arise countless times and none of them, even for the Buddha, are mindful. Which ones were kusala unassociataed with knowledge ., which ones kusala with panna. What about the moments of lobha that arise countless times – even at the moments when we might think there is mindfulness. Which ones lobha associated with miccha ditthi? Which ones lobha asscocited with mana, conceit, which ones lobha only. Which ones pure moha. All of these cittas that I just listed come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. We may feel highly calm but be merely observing change without any actual awareness. Even cittas with moha (ignorance) or lobha(desire) can observe and experience different realities arising at the 6 doors – Right now there is the experience of color, a paramattha dhamma- but are the javanna cittas arising afterwards lobha or sati or moha. Try concentrating on some part of the body. Is the focusing done with a sense that you made it happen?. Is the concentration with sati, or with lobha? Both can experience the same charateristic – that reality which is hard or hot or cold or vibration. Concentrate for a long time on the body – after awhile you can learn to feel subtle vibrations and changes in heat etc. but if it is lobha or moha experiencing it all what is the point? If it is moha then the feeling may be very neutral and peaceful or if it is lobha very pleasant thus most easy to think we are having sati. Or we may have the type of sati that is associated with samattha, not vipassana Both are kusala but is it not useful to learn details so that they can be distinguished? Mike I notice already some changes in your thinking- you lean a little more towards anatta now. You realize that sati can arise any time any place. You write “ So mindfulness it is not to be practiced by JUST sitting on a cushion” I think you said that you have been studying abhidhamma a little over a year – perhaps you can remember your views before you started. Perhaps now there is better understanding? But no you who made it happen. Did you think you had wrong view before, THAT YOU WOULD CHANGE? When we have any view we are sure we are right. It is like the saying goes "my opinions may have changed but not the fact that I am right" But now your views are modified, It wasn’t by sitting and concentrating - it happened because you heard (by conditions) And reflected (by conditions) on the Buddhas teaching TO SOME EXTENT. No you who can decide, “Ok now I will understand better, now I accept that there is no self I will not go back to my old delusion.” You might say that to yourself and then next week think you might think “this was all nonsense, this Abhidhamma stuff.” You might listen to some teacher who tells you the path is all about focussing and getting calm and wonder why you ever bothered with abstruse details such as we mention today. This is because everything is anatta:- we cannot control going right or wrong. This is difficult for most people to accept. I say all these things not because I expect you to believe me but because I know that hearing difficult aspects of Dhamma is a condition for reflection. Of course it is far more than just listening to the Abhidamma – we could become a world expert on Abhidhamma, believe everything in it and still develop no deep understanding. I quote you again ““Each person has to find what works for them, based on their own unique accumulations” Yes the teachings are our guide but we are alone, life in the deepest sense is only a moment , we have only now to strive. But how to strive without lobha? Robert 484 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 7:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) This is just to correct a typing mistake I made in the last message: I said "Which cittas then were javanna , which were vipaka, which were bhavanga? These arise countless times and none of them, even for the Buddha, are mindful. " I meant to say "Which cittas then were javanna , which were vipaka, which were bhavanga? Bhavanga cittas and vipaka cittas arise countless times and none of them, even for the Buddha, are mindful. And which javana cittas were kusala unassociataed with knowledge ., which ones.. Sorry for the carelessness Robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > Good to see you back on the list. > I make some comments on your letter to Theresa in > the > spirit that wisdom needs careful consideration of > the > Dhamma to develop. Whether you agree with anything I > say is not important, what is useful is if it > conditions any wise reflection. As you rightly say > “Each person has to > find what works for them, based on their own unique > accumulations.” It really has to be our own > development. I think you realize that vipassana is > not > some “technique”, something we can neatly package > and > dispense like TM. The Buddha himself considered that > it was so profound and difficult to understand that > he > contemplated not teaching it. No one can understand > it > without having heard many details and having applied > the teachings over and over in many lives. > Thus we should not follow anyone blindly merely > because he or she has a reputation or large > following > or because they agree with our preconceptions about > the path. Investigation, over and over in different > ways – that is what is needed. > The good teachers help us by encouraging us to > question again and again and again, and by > encouraging > us to study deeply the Tipitika. They explain that > sati and panna are anatta, uncontrollable and that > studying realities directly should be done without > any > hidden wish for quick insight. But whether anyone > really listens depends on manifold factors. > > > in your letter to Theresa you wrote “And no "one" > who > is mindful - just mindfulness rising and falling ... > “ > Right, there is no one. Whether there is mindfulness > or not. Even if we are absolutely certain that there > is a self, sure that we are in control, still the > truth is there are only a flux of conditions. No > self, > never was, never can be. > > You said “there is just mindfulness arising and > falling away”. We could be more precise. The > ancient > scriptures explain that sense-door procees citas > arise > in a series of cittas. After there has been the > brief > moment when a sense cognition such as seeing arises > (WHICH IS VIPAKA –THE RESULT OF KAMMA) after that > there is santirana-citta and votthapanna citta which > are also both vipakka cittas, result from past > kamma. > After that there are javanna cittas, atotal of seven > and at these moments there can be either kusala or > akusala or kiriya(with sati or without) then there > are > 2 moments of tadaramma citta which is vipaka moments > of bhavanga citta, after that there can be minddoor > processes which take the same object. Even the > Buddha > and the arahants have these same processes. In a > flash > of lightning millions of these processes occur. > Which > cittas then were javanna , which were vipaka, which > were bhavanga? These arise countless times and none > of > them, even for the Buddha, are mindful. Which ones > were kusala unassociataed with knowledge ., which > ones > kusala with panna. What about the moments of lobha > that arise countless times – even at the moments > when > we might think there is mindfulness. Which ones > lobha > associated with miccha ditthi? Which ones lobha > asscocited with mana, conceit, which ones lobha > only. > Which ones pure moha. All of these cittas that I > just > listed come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. > > We may feel highly calm but be merely observing > change without any actual awareness. Even cittas > with > moha (ignorance) or lobha(desire) can observe and > experience different realities arising at the 6 > doors > – Right now there is the experience of color, a > paramattha dhamma- but are the javanna cittas > arising > afterwards lobha or sati or moha. Try concentrating > on > some part of the body. Is the focusing done with a > sense that you made it happen?. Is the concentration > with sati, or with lobha? Both can experience the > same > charateristic – that reality which is hard or hot or > cold or vibration. Concentrate for a long time on > the > body – after awhile you can learn to feel subtle > vibrations and changes in heat etc. but if it is > lobha > or moha experiencing it all what is the point? If it > is moha then the feeling may be very neutral and > peaceful or if it is lobha very pleasant thus most > easy to think we are having sati. > Or we may have the type of sati that is associated > with samattha, not vipassana Both are kusala but is > it > not useful to learn details so that they can be > distinguished? > > Mike I notice already some changes in your > thinking- > you lean a little more towards anatta now. You > realize > that sati can arise any time any place. You write “ > So > mindfulness it is not to be practiced by JUST > sitting > on a > cushion” > I think you said that you have been studying > abhidhamma a little over a year – perhaps you can > remember your views before you started. Perhaps now > there is better understanding? But no you who made > it > happen. Did you think you had wrong view before, > THAT > YOU WOULD CHANGE? When we have any view we are sure > we > are right. It is like the saying goes "my opinions > may > have changed but not the fact that I am right" > > But now your views are modified, It wasn’t by > sitting > and concentrating - it happened because you heard > (by > conditions) And reflected (by conditions) on the > Buddhas teaching TO SOME EXTENT. > No you who can decide, “Ok now I will understand > better, now I accept that there is no self I will > not > go back to my old delusion.” You might say that to > yourself and then next week think you might think > “this was all nonsense, this Abhidhamma stuff.” > You > might listen to some teacher who tells you the path > is > all about focussing and getting calm and wonder why > you ever bothered with abstruse details such as we > mention today. This is because everything is > anatta:- > we cannot control going right or wrong. This is > difficult for most people to accept. I say all these > things not because I expect you to believe me but > because I know that hearing difficult aspects of > Dhamma is a condition for reflection. > Of course it is far more than just listening to the > Abhidamma – we could become a world expert on > Abhidhamma, believe everything in it and still > develop no deep understanding. I quote you again > ““Each person has to > find what works for them, based on their own unique > accumulations” Yes the teachings are our guide but > we are alone, life in the deepest sense is only a > moment , we have only now to strive. But how to > strive > without lobha? > Robert > 485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 8:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta -Dear shin, This is explained, I think, either in the Abhidhammathasangaha or the Atthasalini, the commentary to the Dhammasangani, I forget which. I give some details but please check _ I am saying all this just from my aging memory. Metta is alobha but it is a particular type of alobha. There are other cetasikas such as mudita and kurana which arise only with those cittas that have sympathetic joy or compassion and at those times no metta. These are all kusala , they all take a concept, a person as object but they are different from each other. I think you made a tyoing mistake when you said "that thought is metta which is DOSA" I guess you meant "that thought is metta which is alobha? Also you wrote that ' if the thought is kusala thought then the moment of metta arises after that" At the very moments of thinking with kusala, metta may be present. Robert > Dear Robert, > When a moment of metta arise, doesn't it mean > that all most all sobhana cetasika arises, except > maybe not the panna ? So if at the moment, we see > the dead person as that person's karuna, then the > moment of that thought is metta which is dosa. I > think it depends on the thought right after seeing > the dead person. So if the thought is kusula > thought, then the moment of metta arises after that. > Pls correct me if I am going to a wrong view with > this concept or understanding. 486 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 8:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings > -------- >> > > "Do you know a good quote on the definition a "good" > dhamma friend ? > > I guess it is good to have this reminder.. Yes ?? > :-)) > > With metta, > > Theresa. > Yes Theresa this is a good reminder indeed. Perhaps who could find us some quotes on this (no rush these things take time)- there are a few in the suttas and also the commentaries. thank You Robert > > 487 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:26pm Subject: Re: metta to metta Hello Sarah, << ------ I also doubt there can be metta to a dead person, certainly not to an inanimate object and not to a fictitious character. How about when watching the news on television, can there be metta? What if a message on the internet doesn't go through or if no one reads it? Well.... As I understand it, there must be an aspect of promoting the welfare of others.. --------- >> I pass Metta just because I pass Metta.. It's a training for "Self- less".. Whether or not there is a recipient, or whether or not any recipients will ever receive in the form as I wished for, has nothing to do with the person passing Metta in the first place.. With Metta, (a good wish to the benefits of others) Theresa. 488 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:34pm Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca Hello Amara, Jonothan, and Sarah, << ------- ... think you've misunderstood the English meaning of unsatisfactory here. When we talk about all sankhara dhammas being dukkha or inherently unsatisfactory it has nothing at all to do with dosa of any level and nothing to do with being dissatisfied. As you so clearly say, the key connection is anicca..we cling to seeing, hearing etc, all of which are impermanent. Understanding the unsatisfactoriness (dukkha and as you say, not to be confused with dukkha dukkha) is part of the deeper understanding of the reality of seeing or hearing and the understanding (even at a beginning level) is light and kusala. if there is any dosa, it shows there is no understanding of the characteristic. ---------- >> Thank you, Sarah, for explaining Dukkha/Unsatisfactoriness very clearly.. << the key connection is anicca.. >> The three Lakkhanas are closely related.. Because of Impermanence, we experience Dukkha (unsatisfactoriness).. Because of Impermanence and Dukkha, we understand Anicca.. << if there is any dosa, it shows there is no understanding of the characteristic. >> Dosa is a impermanent thought.. Without Mindfulness, Dosa is the sign that there is "No Insight".. However, with Mindfulness, Dosa becomes a Dhamma and Insight can arise.. With metta, Theresa. 489 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:47pm Subject: Re: experiences & dosa Hello Jonothan and Sarah, << ------ Jonothan wrote : Fortunately, there were some occasions of remembering that dosa arising is just the manifestation of accumulations for having dosa. As long as the tendency is there it will find an object. However, the understanding of that dosa as being not self is another thing altogether. And the stronger the dosa, the more remote that possibility can seem. Sarah wrote : how could there be a self able to direct any realities when the evidence of the stong kilesa (against one's wishes) is so apparent? In between the dosa there may be a moment of understanding a reality or of at least intellectually seeing the danger of the kilesa and then the conditioned dosa arises again...anatta. ---------- >> Dosa is a sankhara, raise and fall temporarily... Impermanence ! Whenever we directly experience the Impermanence (thus, Dosa) as a sankhara (thus, with Mindfulness), Anatta is understood right at that moment.. During the moment we must rely on "a moment of ... at least intellectually seeing the danger of the kilesa", we do not have direct experience yet, but we obtain our understanding from Reasoning.. For Insight/knowledge to be true Insight/Panna, we must understand through "direct experience" right *in* the moment of Mindfulness, not sooner, not later.. Our Insight/Panna about three Lakkhanas must be experience directly and on time.. Q : what if what we think we experience directly and on time is not really direct and on time, because many (thousands? millions?) Nama and Rupa instances pass through without we even know about it, let alone being mindful ? My answer : Whatever we can see is whatever sankhara we have.. We use it, be mindful of it, and it will become a Dhamma.. With metta, Theresa. 490 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 10:58pm Subject: Re: metta to metta Hello Shinlin, << ------- I thought metta applys to the moment when our citta is kusala. So even when the person is dead, we can have a moment of metta toward the dead person's previous kamma for being able to be born as human being or being born at least with the two roots, alobha and adosa. Recently, I met a German friend, Mr. Dominique Bank. He likes the idea of the buddist teaching. But he is very very new. So it would be appreciated if our friends in Dhamma Study group can help and share something with him. I don't know how to explain things without using Pali language or convey in a much simplier and easier language for people to understanding the reality. I talked to him alittle about the six mind doors only. I really don't know how to start or explain anything simple to new people. So I hope you can help him. ---------- >> I can relate to what you wrote.. When I didn't know anything about Buddhism, my teacher gave me an initial point of focus, taught me how to meditate, gave me the amount of time for meditation practice, and sent me to my practice.. I practiced as much as I could, and then came back to him with this report : "Sorry teacher, I could not follow your instructions.. I failed.. My mind jumps about all the time.. I get all sorts of thinking and feelings during sitting meditation session, but outside of it.." My teacher said : "So, you have learned by experience that our body and mind are not permanent, but always changing.." From my own experience, practicing is the best way to learn Buddhism.. Robert invited your friend to join this list.. This is a great idea.. With metta, Theresa. 491 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:29pm Subject: About Sitting Meditation (was re: About practices/teachings) Hello Sarah, << ----- like Robert, I hope you realise that we wish to help and exchanges and differences of view and experience are very healthy..this is how we can question and develop our understanding. I remember the Tibetan monks have often heated debates and exchanges on the abhidhamma....better than just agreeing we all have experienced great insights! -------- >> I do intentionally stop expressing my view if I happen to sense a slim possibility of Dosa/Lobha arising in me or my friends.. I don't understand what you mean by "heated debates", is it Dosa ?.. I will gladly share my views, whether or not right or wrong, as long as I and my friends practice Mindfulness diligently.. << ----- ... a Mahasi meditation practice and think that it was better to be removed from distractions and try to have mindfulness all the time. But what is the motive? What is the goal? The goal at such times is to have more mindfulness for oneself and by being in a specific place in a specific position to try and control it. What about now? What is real? Not sitting or writing because these are concepts. Hardness, heat, visible object are rupas that appear now. It doesn't matter how many 'distractions' there are. Whether we're on the busy, crowded underground in Hong Kong or in a quiet room in a meditation centre, hardness is still that rupa experienced by the body sense. It shows a lack of confidence in the power of sati wareness) if one has the idea that the object which it is aware of is easier when there are no 'distractions'. The key is to learn more about the objects of awareness and the difference between concepts and realities. -------- >> Sitting Meditation and retreats are like a training camp.. We should take the skills we gained from the camps and applied it to real life.. Many friends, who sat with me in retreats, liked to discuss about or practice Sitting Meditation, then Walking Meditation, next, while leaving the rest of the day to "relaxing" or "taking a break" from the challenging task of Mindfulness throughout the day.. That's my friends' choices.. However, the teachers, the Venerables, taught us to meditate continuously throughout the day.. My teachers, who are students of Venerable Mahasi, mentioned many times that we should practice in all postures, and that Sitting Meditation is a training, a place to start.. During retreat, my teachers encouraged, time after time, that we should practice all the time, as you mentioned above.. Yet, the students put their effort in Sitting Meditation and tried to "attain levels" then, rather than practicing continuously throughout the day.. Eating, Sitting, taking a shower, walking, sitting down, lying down, about to fall asleep, etc.. I guess that teachers encourage students to practice Mindfulness throughout the day, from moment to moment, and that, out of metta, they did not put down the effort (the wish) of the students to practice on Sitting Meditation more.. With metta, Theresa. 492 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings Theresa, In response to my comments about the need for understanding of the teachings at an intellectual level as a beginning step, you suggested that- >Insight (panna, wisdom ?) comes from practice Buddha's Dhamma.. The >Noble Path developed in three stages, ie, Sila-Concentration-Insight, >is how Insight is developed.. Perhaps you were thinking of the 3 levels of kusala (wholesomeness), namely dana (generosity), sila (morality) and bhavana (mental development, ie concentration and insight). These are imortant to know about, but are not the same as stages of the development of insight. As I think you already know, the Buddha did not teach a formal practice as such (and there is no term in the texts for meditation as we understand that expression). His numerous sermons to people were in fact detailed explanations of how things really are and how we can come to understand those realities. He taught that this understanding is to be developed by listening attentively to the teachings, by considering or reflecting on what one has heard and by applying it. That is how the practice is developed, no matter what one’s level of understanding. Knowing this, we can see that there is no impediment to developing the practice at this moment – because we have been and are listening to the teachings and considering what we have heard. And the more we do so the better, particularly the parts that explain about the world of the six doorways (our world at this moment). Jonothan 493 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 15, 2000 11:35pm Subject: Re: About practices/teachings Hello Robert, << -------- Theresa wrote : "Do you know a good quote on the definition a "good" dhamma friend ? I guess it is good to have this reminder.. Yes ?? :-)) Robert wrote : Yes Theresa this is a good reminder indeed. Perhaps who could find us some quotes on this (no rush these things take time)- there are a few in the suttas and also the commentaries. ----------- >> Robert, I asked for your help, because I needed it.. I am a slow reader and read little, remember ??.. Because I don't where where those information are, I ask you for your help... hehehehe... Theresa. 494 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 0:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape Dear Robert, Many thanks for your best wishes and encouragement. I understand and accept the necessity of learning the Pali terminology for the process of recognizing the various nama and rupa as they arise in order for wisdom to develop, but still find it a great challenge since I am very new to this. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sati , comment s on tape > Best wishes in your study Betty, > "But the daunting > > thing is trying to learn all the Pali terminology > > and classifications. That > > is a tremendous intellectual exercise, but hope it > > will become internalized > > in time." > > > It is useful to learn the Pali as the meanings are > precise, whereas The English translations have > assorted connotations. > When we see that the terminology of the Abhidhamma is > actually very precise desciptions of the realities > that are appearing right at this moment then we see > that it is very different from an academic subject. > > Also the idea is not to become good at Pali or an > expert at Abhidhamma but to develop wisdom. It is > always the meaning, not the terminolgy that is > important. If we see this then even at the moments we > are studying or thinking about Dhamma there can be > direct awareness of whatever realities are arising. > Robert 495 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:38am Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > > > >First I must say that I have not studied the Tipitaka as much as many > >people here, such as Robert, I still have so much more to read and > >inquire into, luckily we have Khun Sujin who has studied it for over > >50 years and is a wonderful teacher so that we can ask her to explain > >what is not clear in our reasonings. As to the English terminology, > >I think it may be confusing to translate dukkha as unsatisfactory as > >opposed to the feeling unsattisfied, I would think unenduring would > >render a clearer understanding of the word. Many people might have > >trouble distinguishing the fine line between the two words, as > >probably I do. So long as there is a distinction between dukkha > >and dukkha dukkha, we're on the right track. This is why Khun Sujin > >prefers to use Pali terms, and explain the meanings instead of trying > >to find the exact verbatim translation which may be impossible in > >some languages, I think. Again we agree that it is the understanding > >that is important, > > > >Amara > > > > Dear Amara, > > Unenduring sounds too close to impermanent to me..how about > 'worthless'..perhaps that would cause less confusion than unsatisfactory... > Even a moment of sati or panna is inherently worthless ..hence the > development of detachment from all realities... > I fully agree about the difficulty translating pali terms... > > Sarah Sarah, Worthless is a bit far from the Pali, I'm afraid. In fact the way Khun Sujin explains it dukkha is very close to anicca, just a different angle of the same thing, and the very heart of the Abhidhamma, I find, because no other religion on earth teaches that the soul or the heart or the consciousness is in fact a stream of different realities arising and falling away in a stream of one citta at a time, not one single life that lasts from birth til death. The more I consider the problem the more I think unenduring is best, with the related concept that hard to endure would be dukkha dukkha. Still Pali is best, with or without the parenthesis juxtaposed! Amara 496 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 7:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings Ok I will try. Just from memory (I am a fairly fast reader but lazy when it comes to looking things up). The ancient commentary gives a list of qualities that a kalynimitta should have. These qualities are in effect so rigorous that only a Buddha could have all of them. Still as we get nearer the end of the list I remember one that seems important. It was that the friend should have a good knowledge of the Tipitika(or words to that effect). if I see any references during my reading later I will send them to with the exact phrasing. There is also an interesting comment in the Atthasalini (one of the most important commentaries)"Only monks who are proficient in Abhidhamma can be regarded as 'preachers of Dhamma (dhammakathika)'. Others, even if they actually engage in preaching, cannot truly be so called. When giving a doctrinal exposition, they may, for instance, mix up the various kinds of karma and karmic results or the various factors found when analysing body and mind. But those proficient in Abhidhamma do not make such mistakes." Robert robert > << -------- > Theresa wrote : > "Do you know a good quote on the definition a "good" > dhamma friend ? > > I guess it is good to have this reminder.. Yes ?? > :-)) > > > Robert wrote : > Yes Theresa this is a good reminder indeed. Perhaps > who could find us > some quotes on this (no rush these things take > time)- there are a few > in the suttas and also the commentaries. > ----------- >> > > Robert, I asked for your help, because I needed it.. > I am a slow > reader and read little, remember ??.. Because I > don't where where > those information are, I ask you for your help... > hehehehe... > > Theresa. > > > 497 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 3:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca >Worthless is a bit far from the Pali, I'm afraid. In fact the way >Khun Sujin explains it dukkha is very close to anicca, just a >different angle of the same thing, and the very heart of the >Abhidhamma, I find, because no other religion on earth teaches that >the soul or the heart or the consciousness is in fact a stream of >different realities arising and falling away in a stream of one citta >at a time, not one single life that lasts from birth til death. > >The more I consider the problem the more I think unenduring is best, >with the related concept that hard to endure would be dukkha dukkha. > >Still Pali is best, with or without the parenthesis juxtaposed! > >Amara Amara, well we have to agree to differ on the translation...you can check how Nina translates it and ask the others for their views. Another point to add to the Cambodia list with Khun Sujin! Meanwhile I'm going to sign off and look forward to catching up with all the messages on return (2nd July). We'll be in the countryside with no internet, so probably have to wait til then. This has been a bumper month for messages (beaten all our records and the month is only halfway!).>Keep them up in our absence everyone! best wishes, Sarah 498 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Robert, Metta is not alobha but adosa. This is in the tipaka and Archan Sujin was talking about it two weeks ago in the Thai Dhamma talk. But I will check it out again. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta -Dear shin, This is explained, I think, either in the Abhidhammathasangaha or the Atthasalini, the commentary to the Dhammasangani, I forget which. I give some details but please check _ I am saying all this just from my aging memory. Metta is alobha but it is a particular type of alobha. There are other cetasikas such as mudita and kurana which arise only with those cittas that have sympathetic joy or compassion and at those times no metta. These are all kusala , they all take a concept, a person as object but they are different from each other. I think you made a tyoing mistake when you said "that thought is metta which is DOSA" I guess you meant "that thought is metta which is alobha? Also you wrote that ' if the thought is kusala thought then the moment of metta arises after that" At the very moments of thinking with kusala, metta may be present. Robert > Dear Robert, > When a moment of metta arise, doesn't it mean > that all most all sobhana cetasika arises, except > maybe not the panna ? So if at the moment, we see > the dead person as that person's karuna, then the > moment of that thought is metta which is dosa. I > think it depends on the thought right after seeing > the dead person. So if the thought is kusula > thought, then the moment of metta arises after that. > Pls correct me if I am going to a wrong view with > this concept or understanding. 499 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 11:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Thank you Shinlin, Quite right. Very careless of me. Thank you very much for correcting this. Metta is adosa - no dosa,. Thus when we have aversion to people there is dosa but this can immediately be a reminder for metta, adosa to arise (if there are the conditions). Good work - please let us know more about the characteristic of adosa and metta as you learn more. This is the way we help each other - not by assuming anyone to be right or wrong but by carefully checking anything anyone says - and if they are mistaken to immediately point this out. Thank you Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > Metta is not alobha but adosa. This is in the > tipaka and Archan Sujin was talking about it two > weeks ago in the Thai Dhamma talk. But I will check > it out again. > > best regards, > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta > > > > -Dear shin, > This is explained, I think, either in the > Abhidhammathasangaha or the Atthasalini, the > commentary to the Dhammasangani, I forget which. I > give some details but please check _ I am saying > all > this just from my aging memory. > > Metta is alobha but it is a particular type of > alobha. > There are other cetasikas such as mudita and > kurana > which arise only with those cittas that have > sympathetic joy or compassion and at those times > no > metta. These are all kusala , they all take a > concept, > a person as object but they are different from > each > other. > > I think you made a tyoing mistake when you said > "that > thought is metta which is DOSA" I guess you meant > "that thought is metta which is alobha? > > Also you wrote that ' if the thought is kusala > thought > then the moment of metta arises after that" > At the very moments of thinking with kusala, metta > may > be present. > Robert > > > > Dear Robert, > > When a moment of metta arise, doesn't it > mean > > that all most all sobhana cetasika arises, > except > > maybe not the panna ? So if at the moment, we > see > > the dead person as that person's karuna, then > the > > moment of that thought is metta which is dosa. I > > think it depends on the thought right after > seeing > > the dead person. So if the thought is kusula > > thought, then the moment of metta arises after > that. > > Pls correct me if I am going to a wrong view > with > > this concept or understanding. > > 500 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 11:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Dear Robert, Your mind is working so fast that you type different from what you are thinking. This happens to me most of the time. So PATIENCE or KANTI is necessary, the LOBHA for quickly or fast is going to accumulate more impatience and lobha. Just a little suggest from an avija person. metta, shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta Thank you Shinlin, Quite right. Very careless of me. Thank you very much for correcting this. Metta is adosa - no dosa,. Thus when we have aversion to people there is dosa but this can immediately be a reminder for metta, adosa to arise (if there are the conditions). Good work - please let us know more about the characteristic of adosa and metta as you learn more. This is the way we help each other - not by assuming anyone to be right or wrong but by carefully checking anything anyone says - and if they are mistaken to immediately point this out. Thank you Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > Metta is not alobha but adosa. This is in the > tipaka and Archan Sujin was talking about it two > weeks ago in the Thai Dhamma talk. But I will check > it out again. > > best regards, > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta > > > > -Dear shin, > This is explained, I think, either in the > Abhidhammathasangaha or the Atthasalini, the > commentary to the Dhammasangani, I forget which. I > give some details but please check _ I am saying > all > this just from my aging memory. > > Metta is alobha but it is a particular type of > alobha. > There are other cetasikas such as mudita and > kurana > which arise only with those cittas that have > sympathetic joy or compassion and at those times > no > metta. These are all kusala , they all take a > concept, > a person as object but they are different from > each > other. > > I think you made a tyoing mistake when you said > "that > thought is metta which is DOSA" I guess you meant > "that thought is metta which is alobha? > > Also you wrote that ' if the thought is kusala > thought > then the moment of metta arises after that" > At the very moments of thinking with kusala, metta > may > be present. > Robert > > > > Dear Robert, > > When a moment of metta arise, doesn't it > mean > > that all most all sobhana cetasika arises, > except > > maybe not the panna ? So if at the moment, we > see > > the dead person as that person's karuna, then > the > > moment of that thought is metta which is dosa. I > > think it depends on the thought right after > seeing > > the dead person. So if the thought is kusula > > thought, then the moment of metta arises after > that. > > Pls correct me if I am going to a wrong view > with > > this concept or understanding. > > 501 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 11:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta good points again Shin, Yesterday the postings were coming in so thick and fast that I rushed through a few of the replies in between classes and other duties. As you note this is not developing khanti. Better I write less but be more careful about what I write. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > Your mind is working so fast that you type > different from what you are thinking. This happens > to me most of the time. So PATIENCE or KANTI is > necessary, the LOBHA for quickly or fast is going to > accumulate more impatience and lobha. Just a little > suggest from an avija person. > > metta, > shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:15 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] metta to metta > > > Thank you Shinlin, > Quite right. Very careless of me. Thank you very > much > for correcting this. > Metta is adosa - no dosa,. Thus when we have > aversion > to people there is dosa but this can immediately > be a > reminder for metta, adosa to arise (if there are > the > conditions). > Good work - please let us know more about the > characteristic of adosa and metta as you learn > more. > > This is the way we help each other - not by > assuming > anyone to be right or wrong but by carefully > checking > anything anyone says - and if they are mistaken to > immediately point this out. > Thank you > Robert > 502 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 0:13pm Subject: Re: Dukkha vs Anicca > Amara, > well we have to agree to differ on the translation...you can check how Nina > translates it and ask the others for their views. Another point to add to > the Cambodia list with Khun Sujin! > > Meanwhile I'm going to sign off and look forward to catching up with all the > messages on return (2nd July). We'll be in the countryside with no internet, > so probably have to wait til then. This has been a bumper month for messages > (beaten all our records and the month is only halfway!).>Keep them up in our > absence everyone! > > best wishes, Sarah Jonothan and Sarah, Once again, bon voyage, say bonjour to France for me (one of my favorite countries!)! And see you in two weeks+! As to the translations, I think that the way the site is full of Nina's work is evident enough of how I feel towards her work as, I paraphrase Robert, the world's greatest English writer on Buddhism. And of course she is one of my oldest dhamma friends. Still I do not agree with all her choices of English terminologies such as her choosing to translate viriya as energy in her translations which might have confused people in the context of, for example, our latest article on Viriya-Parami. What with the preparations Mahajanaka took before the ship went down, I'm afraid everyone will rush to eat something to accumulate energy for the plight, when in fact it was the mental energy or perseverance that was at work here, and I had checked with Khun Sujin's sister who oversaw the translation on this matter before also. There are a few like this, but in all her works are incomparable. Amara 503 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Guidelines ? Hello, Friends of this list have mentioned about "Anatta" in their daily practice.. (( Please correct me if I mistunderstand English. )) I learned to use "Impermanence" in daily practice.. Practicing Impermanence ?? When I'm mindful, I can see : * there's a beginning of an event, but there's no "I".. * there's an ending of an event, but there's no "I".. * there's an event, but there's no "I".. * there's one event, and another, and another, but there's no "I".. * there's one consciousness related to a sense door, but there's no "I".. etc. etc. where an event could be a vedana, a thought, or whatever we can perceive in a moment of mindfulness.. That's what I learned and have practiced as much as I can throughout the day.. Besides that, I do Sitting Meditation, because I have time to sit quietly in the morning right after I wake up, and also at night before I lie down to sleep, and because I sometimes have extra time during the day to just sit quietly alone.. What I learned and practiced stresses on "Impermanence" (changes, temporary).. When I learned, I take "Impermanence" (the word !) as a communication means, a term, a concept.. In my practice, I see changes after changes while I move about (live).. This Mindfulness could be continuous for some time, maybe 15 minutes, 30 minutes, one hour, etc.. During that time, I only see a series of changes.. When I only see changes, the idea (concept ?) of "No Self" is evident from mindfulness to mindfulness, from moment to moment.. Changes -- Unsatisfactoriness -- Selfless ... They are experienced from mindfulness to mindfulness.. When we see Changes with mindfulness, we experience Impermanence.. When we see Changes continuously, we experience Self-less.. When we see Changes continuously for sometimes, we experience Unsatisfactoriness.. I wrote the above paragraphs because I guess that there is no difference (if there exists any?) between Venerable Mahasi's technique (terms?) and Sujin's.. I truly feel that there is no difference.. Impermanence is used as a guideline to help meditators.. Anatta is sort of like a guideline to help meditators.. Impermanence and Anatta, both, are interrelated and not different from each other.. Because of Impermanence, there's Anatta.. It seems that, out of metta for me, Sarah, Robert and Amara, have had a concern that I am attached to "attainment".. I have given it some thought.. I guess it's the communication problem, which causes the misunderstanding.. I use "experience" and "Insight", not to mean something saintly, but to refer to simple knowledge.. When a mosquitoe stings, I get an experience.. When I see a vedana, I get an experience.. When I see the beginning of a thought, I get an experience.. When I see the end of a thought, I get an experience.. When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I get an experience.. When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I get an experience.. Insight (panna) is my own direct experience of what Buddha taught/mentioned.. When I see the beginning of a thought, I have an Insight (the rise).. When I see the end of a thought, I have an Insight (the fall).. When I see a thought (either happy or sad), I have an Insight (sankhara).. When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I have an Insight (sankhara).. When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I have an Insight (vedana).. The "Levels of Insight", which I know and mentioned in my previous posts, are just it, Experience and Insight, as I explained above.. Nothing fancy.. Nothing saintly.. Just Experience.. :-)) I have learned few terms (very few, indeed), but each term I use is related to my direct experience and Insight some time during my practice.. Each term I use has a true meaning to me, through experience.. I tend to forget terms I learn for the sake of learning a term/concept, but I remember terms which I have direct experience.. I'm grateful that you have supported me by trying to relate my layman terms to the correct terms, and that you have shared with me concepts and terminologies, learned from books and Tipitaka.. With metta, Theresa. 504 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 0:56pm Subject: Re: metta to metta --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > good points again Shin, > Yesterday the postings were coming in so thick and > fast that I rushed through a few of the replies in > between classes and other duties. As you note this is > not developing khanti. Better I write less but be more > careful about what I write. > Robert Robert, I must protest for the sake of all your readers that a few mistakes does not warrant the deprivation of our opportunity to read your writings! I argue with respect to maranasati that we should all do the best we can while we still can and we never know how much time we have left to study the dhamma on this earth, so that each word of wisdom is invaluable. Thanks for all your messages and we appreciate the great effort you put into your correspondance, and please keep it up as much as possible, we look forward to reading and learning from them, Amara 505 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: metta to metta Dear Mr.Bonk, If you would like to receive the mail which the dhammastudy group are discussing about, you have to send one of your mail to mailto:dhammastudygroup@eGroups.com so in the future the mail will automatically send to your mail. How are you doing with the books, I gave you ?If there is any questions or anything you would like to understand or share, pls feel free to contact all the dhamma friends or me in this group discussion. To stress again, I am Chaichan's wife. best regards, Shin 506 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:09pm Subject: Re: Guidelines ? > It seems that, out of metta for me, Sarah, Robert and Amara, have had > a concern that I am attached to "attainment".. Theresa, Thanks for including me in this list, but I have never been concerned about your attachment to 'attainment': according to the Tipitaka there can be none, if one has reached it, but without real knowledge of what it is there can be lobha for it to arise. Nor does the person in whom it arises need anyone to tell him that he has attained something, it is much too extraordinary to miss, and each level of knowledge is permanent, never to be questioned again. Nor does one need anyone else to confirm the knowledge, it is real according to the Tipitaka. > When a mosquitoe stings, I get an experience.. > When I see a vedana, I get an experience.. > When I see the beginning of a thought, I get an experience.. > When I see the end of a thought, I get an experience.. > When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I get an experience.. > When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I get an > experience.. May I suggest you be even more conscientious and not just experience the beginnings and endings of the trains of thoughts? While you are thinking there were millions of citta functioning in their infinitely swift opperations, your were probably seeing and hearing things while you were thinking, also, and there must have been bodily experiences:- the sight, sound, heat or cold, softness or hardness, motion or tension are all paramatthadhamma. They can all be studied to accumulate panna about the true characteristics of nama and rupa. Right now you are in front of the computer screen, is there no sight? Is it not completely different from sound, seeing from hearing? All this in turn are completely different in nature from touch, from smell, and especially from thoughts. These realities do not even have to be named or called anything in any language, at the level of sati, language and terminologies are useless, seeing realities as they really are is what accumulates real panna. The citta is the element that knows, which makes it hard for it to know itself. It is a marvelous reality that only the complex accumulations of the citta can create, and only the panna accumulated through the citta can extinguish. You are a programmer, and I can see that your typing is way above average, so I can't conceive that you are such a slow reader, perhaps rather you do not have the patience to read other's writings? But I really recommend you find a little time each day to read the advanced section of especially the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', which to me is the key to the Tipitaka as well as sati and panna and through the later, enlightenment. It is the most important book in the world to me, for the neccessary solid basics on dhamma studies. > Insight (panna) is my own direct experience of what Buddha > taught/mentioned.. > > When I see the beginning of a thought, I have an Insight (the rise).. > When I see the end of a thought, I have an Insight (the fall).. > When I see a thought (either happy or sad), I have an Insight > (sankhara).. > When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I have an Insight > (sankhara).. > When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I have an > Insight (vedana).. When you have sati arising, it is the reality not the concept that is studied, but in the meantime, the 'I' covers everything up as I do this and that whereas it is the citta doing its function. And the study of citta and their objects never intrude in daily life, not only did people attain knowledge while listening or reading or discussing the dhamma, but in the Tipitaka they did while they were working (one was a slave woman who attained when the pot boiled over!) and leaning down to rest, and lots of other situations, such as seeing a beautiful woman dancing or something to that effect, as well. Sati is as swift as the citta because it is a cetasika that arises with the citta, when there are conditions for it to arise. One of the main conditions is the study on the intellectual level of what everything is, and for this you need the terminologies to get a clear understanding, and again the 'Summary' is of incomparable value. But no one can study no matter what for you, you must do it yourself, otherwise with his unlimitted powers the Buddha would have made us all bahusutta, so he wouldn't have had to spend 45 yrs. teaching this intricate path and setting up Buddhism for us. Amara 507 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Guidelines ? Good Explanation ! Pi Joy ! I No one can be concern with anyone's attainment and there is no attainment to be attach to anyway. shin ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Guidelines ? > It seems that, out of metta for me, Sarah, Robert and Amara, have had > a concern that I am attached to "attainment".. Theresa, Thanks for including me in this list, but I have never been concerned about your attachment to 'attainment': according to the Tipitaka there can be none, if one has reached it, but without real knowledge of what it is there can be lobha for it to arise. Nor does the person in whom it arises need anyone to tell him that he has attained something, it is much too extraordinary to miss, and each level of knowledge is permanent, never to be questioned again. Nor does one need anyone else to confirm the knowledge, it is real according to the Tipitaka. > When a mosquitoe stings, I get an experience.. > When I see a vedana, I get an experience.. > When I see the beginning of a thought, I get an experience.. > When I see the end of a thought, I get an experience.. > When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I get an experience.. > When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I get an > experience.. May I suggest you be even more conscientious and not just experience the beginnings and endings of the trains of thoughts? While you are thinking there were millions of citta functioning in their infinitely swift opperations, your were probably seeing and hearing things while you were thinking, also, and there must have been bodily experiences:- the sight, sound, heat or cold, softness or hardness, motion or tension are all paramatthadhamma. They can all be studied to accumulate panna about the true characteristics of nama and rupa. Right now you are in front of the computer screen, is there no sight? Is it not completely different from sound, seeing from hearing? All this in turn are completely different in nature from touch, from smell, and especially from thoughts. These realities do not even have to be named or called anything in any language, at the level of sati, language and terminologies are useless, seeing realities as they really are is what accumulates real panna. The citta is the element that knows, which makes it hard for it to know itself. It is a marvelous reality that only the complex accumulations of the citta can create, and only the panna accumulated through the citta can extinguish. You are a programmer, and I can see that your typing is way above average, so I can't conceive that you are such a slow reader, perhaps rather you do not have the patience to read other's writings? But I really recommend you find a little time each day to read the advanced section of especially the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', which to me is the key to the Tipitaka as well as sati and panna and through the later, enlightenment. It is the most important book in the world to me, for the neccessary solid basics on dhamma studies. > Insight (panna) is my own direct experience of what Buddha > taught/mentioned.. > > When I see the beginning of a thought, I have an Insight (the rise).. > When I see the end of a thought, I have an Insight (the fall).. > When I see a thought (either happy or sad), I have an Insight > (sankhara).. > When I see an angry or happy feeling in me, I have an Insight > (sankhara).. > When I feel comfortable or uncomfortable physically, I have an > Insight (vedana).. When you have sati arising, it is the reality not the concept that is studied, but in the meantime, the 'I' covers everything up as I do this and that whereas it is the citta doing its function. And the study of citta and their objects never intrude in daily life, not only did people attain knowledge while listening or reading or discussing the dhamma, but in the Tipitaka they did while they were working (one was a slave woman who attained when the pot boiled over!) and leaning down to rest, and lots of other situations, such as seeing a beautiful woman dancing or something to that effect, as well. Sati is as swift as the citta because it is a cetasika that arises with the citta, when there are conditions for it to arise. One of the main conditions is the study on the intellectual level of what everything is, and for this you need the terminologies to get a clear understanding, and again the 'Summary' is of incomparable value. But no one can study no matter what for you, you must do it yourself, otherwise with his unlimitted powers the Buddha would have made us all bahusutta, so he wouldn't have had to spend 45 yrs. teaching this intricate path and setting up Buddhism for us. Amara 508 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 7:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Guidelines ? Hi! Shin, We missed you at the English discussions! See you this Saturday? Amara 509 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Guidelines ? Last Saturday, I was attacked by food poisoning. So I was in the hospital for 6 days. 6 days in the hospital is a good retreat for me to contemplate dhamma and the teachings. Sometimes Akusula Vipaka can allow us to think about dhamma and teachings too, if we are not overwhelmed by the Dukkha Vedana, as in your Dukkha Dukkha. shin ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Guidelines ? Hi! Shin, We missed you at the English discussions! See you this Saturday? Amara 510 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings >Let the Truths speak for themselves.. >Buddha taught the unshakable Truths.. >Should we doubt Buddha's teaching ? > >Experience is subjective.. Yes !! Theresa, You suggest that the truths taught by the Buddha can be experienced for themselves. Of course they can. But (and it’s a big but) only by developing the understanding of realities exactly as taught by the Buddha also. This means that if the practice is not correct from the beginning, the experiences that follow will not be those of the Buddha’s teaching, no matter how similar they may appear to be. So just because we have experiences that seem to be confirmed by the teachings, this should not be taken as meaning that our practice has been correct. Our lack of understanding and wrong view (not to mention our conceit) is bound to colour our judgement. In the Buddha’s time, the practice began with listening (at length) to the teachings. Why should it be any different today? And next time you read a sutta, you might like to question whether the Buddha was really instructing his listeners to go and do a special meditation practice. Jonothan PS I have enjoyed and benefited from our recent exchanges. But I won't be able to respond for the next 2 weeks or so, as I'll be away. I'll miss the discussion! 511 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 2:47pm Subject: Re: Guidelines ? --- "shinlin" wrote: > Last Saturday, I was attacked by food poisoning. So I was in the hospital for 6 days. 6 days in the hospital is a good retreat for me to contemplate dhamma and the teachings. Sometimes Akusula Vipaka can allow us to think about dhamma and teachings too, if we are not overwhelmed by the Dukkha Vedana, as in your Dukkha Dukkha. > > shin I'm glad you were able to seize in the dukkha dukkha the opportunity to study! A true student of the dhamma to make such a sorry vipaka the object of knowledge. Do take care til tomorrow, though, Amara 512 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha vs Anicca Amara, Thanks for your encouraging reminders. I will do my best to keep them in mind! Jonothan (signing off) 513 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 4:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: metta to metta Shin, A person wishing to receive the mail or post to the list must first join the group by sending a (blank) message to- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215 He/she will then be asked to go through the usual registration formalities. Alternatively, he/she may browse the archives by going to- http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup Jonothan 514 From: shinlin Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: metta to metta Dear Bonk, Jonothan has sent the following method to join the group. regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: metta to metta Shin, A person wishing to receive the mail or post to the list must first join the group by sending a (blank) message to- dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com He/she will then be asked to go through the usual registration formalities. Alternatively, he/she may browse the archives by going to- http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup Jonothan 515 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 5:26pm Subject: Changes in the schedule Dear friends in the dhamma, Khun Sujin has just called to tell me the time of the next English discussion, tomorrow at 1:30 at the foundation building. She has changed the programming in that when there are English speakers who are interested, they would not have to wait for a certain day to hear the dhamma, but would be able to contact her and set up the discussions as needed. This of course cancels the every other Saturday schedules, although I think that it is a pity... So if anyone is visiting Bangkok, please set up your meetings with her ahead of time, to avoid disappointments. Betty, do you think you can find the foundation building? May I invite you to lunch (my turn!) tomorrow? Please give me a call, Amara 516 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 10:35pm Subject: Fwd: danger is friend Hello, I copied from another dhamma listthe following message (and excerpts from Suttas) .. I hope you like it and find it useful to you.. With metta, Theresa. ======================== Dear m., There are ideas relating to the Buddhadhamma, and there is the Buddhadhamma. Where do you think the danger is friend? What and Who is the "I AM" "obsessed with ideas relating to the Buddhadharma? Is deliberately turning thoughts, even to the Buddhadhamma mindfulness? Perhaps it might be beneficial to see if mindfulness is something more than concepts, turning thoughts, and mere cognitive- rational mental modifications. Bare attention is not necessarily part of cenceptualization. Yes, danger is seen in this. Here is why: Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Once the Blessed One was staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. And at that time Ven. Anuruddha was living among the Cetis in the Eastern Bamboo Park. Then, as he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in Ven. Anuruddha's awareness: "This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for ne whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for whose discernment is weak." Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of thinking in Ven. Anuruddha's awareness -- just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm -- disappeared from among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt, and re-appeared among the Cetis in the Eastern Bamboo Park, right in front of Ven. Anuruddha. There he sat down on a prepared seat. As for Ven. Anuruddha, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Good, Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Now then, Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' "Anuruddha, when you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then -- whenever you want -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, you will enter & remain in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. When you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then -- whenever you want -- with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, you will enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance...with the fading of rapture, you will remain in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive to pleasure. You will enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' When you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then -- whenever you want -- with the abandoning of pleasure & pain, as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress, you will enter & remain in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither- pleasure-nor-pain. "Now, when you think these eight thoughts of a great person and become a person who can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, these four jhanas -- heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now -- then your robe of cast-off rags will seem to you to be just like the clothes chest of a householder or householder's son, full of clothes of many colors. As you live contented, it will serve for your delight, for a comfortable abiding, for non-agitation, & for alighting on Unbinding. "When you think these eight thoughts of a great person and become a person who can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, these four jhanas -- heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now -- then your meal of almsfood will seem to you to be just like the rice & wheat of a householder or householder's son, cleaned of black grains, and served with a variety of sauces & seasonings...your dwelling at the foot of a tree will seem to you to be just like the gabled mansion of a householder or householder's son, plastered inside & out, draft-free, bolted, and with its shutters closed...your bed on a spread of grass will seem to you like the couch of a householder or householder's son, spread with long- haired coverlets, white woolen coverlets, embroidered coverlets, antelope-hide & deer-skin rugs, covered with a canopy, and with red cushions for the head & feet... "When you think these eight thoughts of a great person and become a person who can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, these four jhanas -- heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now -- then your medicine of strong-smelling urine will seem to you to be just like the various tonics of a householder or householder's son: ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, and molasses sugar. As you live contented, it will serve for your delight, for a comfortable abiding, for non-agitation, & for alighting on Unbinding. "Now, then, Anuruddha, you are to stay right here among the Cetis for the coming Rains Retreat." "As you say, venerable sir," Ven. Anuruddha replied. Then, having given this exhortation to Ven. Anuruddha, the Blessed One -- as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm -- disappeared from the Eastern Bamboo Park of the Cetis and reappeared among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. He sat down on a prepared seat and, as he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "Monks, I will teach you the eight thoughts of a great person. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "Now, what are the eight thoughts of a great person? This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak. This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication,who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers,sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one in entanglement.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. 'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. 'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk's mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & is firm in the cessation of complication. 'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." Now, during the following Rains Retreat, Ven. Anuruddha stayed right there in the Eastern Bamboo Park among the Cetis. Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Anuruddha became another one of the arahants. Then, on attaining arahantship, he uttered this verse: Knowing my thoughts, the Teacher, unexcelled in the cosmos, came to me through his power in a body made of mind. He taught in line with my thoughts, and then further. The Buddha, delighting in non-complication, taught non-complication. Knowing his Dhamma, I kept delighting in his bidding. The three knowledges have been attained; the Buddha's bidding, done. And to reinforce the above: Samyutta Nikaya XLVIII.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of the Mental Faculties For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ---- "Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment. "Now what is the faculty of conviction? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called the faculty of conviction. "And what is the faculty of persistence? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. He generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen...for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen...for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This is called the faculty of persistence. "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves...the mind in & of itself...mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness. "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration. "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. "These are the five faculties." As to danger specifically: Majjhima Nikaya 105 Sunakkhatta Sutta To Sunakkhatta For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali in the Great Forest, at the Peaked Pavilion. Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'" Sunakkhatta the Licchavin heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Sunakkhatta the Licchavin went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, have bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "I have heard, lord, that a large number of monks have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."' Now, have they rightly declared final gnosis, or is it the case that some of them have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation?" "Sunakkhatta, of the monks who have declared final gnosis in my presence...it is the case that some have rightly declared final gnosis, whereas others have declared final gnosis out of over- estimation. As for those who have rightly declared final gnosis, that is their truth. As for those who have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation, the thought occurs to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma.' But there are cases when the thought has occurred to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,' but there are worthless men who come to him having formulated question after question, so that his thought, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,'changes into something else." "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the Dhamma. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "Then in that case, Sunakkhatta, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Sunakkhatta the Licchavin responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Sunakkhatta, there are these five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear...Aromas cognizable via the nose...Flavors cognizable via the tongue...Tactile sensations cognizable the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strands of sensuality. "Now there's the possible case where a certain person is intent on the baits of the world. When a person is intent on the baits of the world, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the imperturbable [the fourth jhana and the spheres of the infinitude of space & the infinitude of consciousness] is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Suppose that there were a man who had left his home village or town a long time ago. And he were to meet with a man who had left the village or town only a short time ago. He would ask if the people in the village or town were secure, well-fed, & free of disease, and the second man would tell him is they were secure, well-fed, & free of disease. Now, what do you think, Sunakkhatta. Would the first man listen to the second man, lend ear, and exert his mind to know? Would he get along with the second man; would his mind feel at home with him?" "Yes, lord." "In the same way, it is possible that there is the case where a certain person is intent on the baits of the world. When a person is intent on the baits of the world, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the imperturbable [the fourth jhana and the spheres of the infinitude of space and the infinitude of consciousness] is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. This is how it can be known that 'This person is intent on the baits of the world.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is intent on the imperturbable. When a person is intent on the imperturbable, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the baits of the world is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Just as a yellow leaf released from its stem is incapable of ever again becoming green, in the same way, when a person is intent on the imperturbable, he is released from the fetter of the baits of the world. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the baits of the world, is intent on the imperturbable.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is intent on the sphere of nothingness. When a person is intent on the sphere of nothingness, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the imperturbable is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Just as a thick rock broken in two cannot be put back together again, in the same way, when a person is intent on the sphere of nothingness, he has broken the fetter of the imperturbable. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the imperturbable, is intent on the sphere of nothingness.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is intent on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. When a person is intent on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the sphere of nothingness is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Sunakkhatta, suppose that a person, having eaten some delicious food, were to vomit it up. What do you think -- would he have any desire for that food?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because he would consider that food to be disgusting." "In the same way, when a person is intent on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, he has vomited up the fetter of the sphere of nothingness. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the sphere of nothingness, is intent on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is rightly intent on Unbinding. When a person is rightly intent on Unbinding, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Just as a palm tree with its top cut off is incapable of further growth, in the same way, when a person is rightly intent on Unbinding, he has destroyed the fetter of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, has destroyed it by the root, like an uprooted palm tree deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the baits of the world, is intent on Unbinding.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain monk thinks, 'Craving is said by the Contemplative [the Buddha] to be an arrow. The poison of ignorance spreads its toxin through desire, passion, & ill will. I have abandoned the arrow. I have expelled the poison of ignorance. I am rightly intent on Unbinding.' Because this is not true of him, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for a person rightly intent on Unbinding. He might pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear...unsuitable aromas with the nose...unsuitable flavors with the tongue... unsuitable tactile sensations with the body. He might pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he pursues unsuitable forms & sights with the eye...pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect, lust invades the mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he incurs death or death-like suffering. "Suppose that a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife and then would probe for the arrow with a probe. He then would pull out the arrow and extract the poison, leaving a residue behind. Knowing that a residue was left behind, he would say, 'My good man, your arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted, with a residue left behind, but it is not enough to do you harm. Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and work for its healing.' "The thought would occur to the man: 'My arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted, with a residue left behind, but it is not enough to do me harm.' He would eat unsuitable food, so the wound would fester. He wouldn't wash the wound or smear it with an ointment frequently, so blood & pus would fill the opening of the wound. He would walk around in the wind & sun, so dust & dirt would contaminate the opening of the wound. He wouldn't keep looking after the wound or work for its healing. Now, both because of these unsuitable actions of his and because of the residue of the dirty poison left behind, the wound would swell. With the swelling of the wound he would incur death or death-like suffering. "In the same way, there's the possible case where a certain monk thinks, 'Craving is said by the Contemplative to be an arrow. The poison of ignorance spreads its toxin through desire, passion, & ill will. I have abandoned the arrow. I have expelled the poison of ignorance. I am rightly intent on Unbinding.' Because this is not true of him, he might pursue those things that are unsuitable for a person rightly intent on Unbinding. He might pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He might pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear...unsuitable aromas with the nose...unsuitable flavors with the tongue...unsuitable tactile sensations with the body. He might pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he pursues unsuitable forms & sights with the eye...pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect, lust invades the mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he incurs death or death-like suffering. For this is death in the discipline of the noble ones: when one renounces the training and returns to the lower life. And this is death-like suffering: when one commits a defiled offense. "Now, there's the possible case where a certain monk thinks, 'Craving is said by the Contemplative to be an arrow. The poison of ignorance spreads its toxin through desire, passion, & ill will. I have abandoned the arrow. I have expelled the poison of ignorance. I am rightly intent on Unbinding.' Because he is rightly intent on Unbinding, he wouldn't pursue those things that are unsuitable for a person rightly intent on Unbinding. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear...unsuitable aromas with the nose...unsuitable flavors with the tongue...unsuitable tactile sensations with the body. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he doesn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye...doesn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect, lust doesn't invade the mind. With his mind not invaded by lust, he doesn't incur death or death- like suffering. "Suppose that a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife and then would probe for the arrow with a probe. He then would pull out the arrow and extract the poison, leaving no residue behind. Knowing that no residue was left behind, he would say, 'My good man, your arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted, with no residue left behind, so it is not enough to do you harm. Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and work for its healing.' "The thought would occur to the man: 'My arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted with no residue left behind, so it is not enough to do me harm.' He would eat suitable food, so the wound wouldn't ester. He would wash the wound and smear it with an ointment frequently, so blood & pus wouldn't fill the opening of the wound. He would not walk around in the wind & sun, so dust & dirt wouldn't contaminate the opening of the wound. He would keep looking after the wound and would work for its healing. Now, both because of these suitable actions of his and because of there being no residue of the poison left behind, the wound would heal. With the healing of the wound and its being covered with skin, he wouldn't incur death or death-like suffering. "In the same way, there's the possible case where a certain monk thinks, 'Craving is said by the Contemplative to be an arrow. The poison of ignorance spreads its toxin through desire, passion, & ill will. I have abandoned the arrow. I have expelled the poison of ignorance. I am rightly intent on Unbinding.' Because he is rightly intent on Unbinding, he wouldn't pursue those things that are unsuitable for a person rightly intent on Unbinding. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear...unsuitable aromas with the nose... unsuitable flavors with the tongue...unsuitable tactile sensations with the body. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he doesn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye...doesn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect, lust doesn't invade the mind. With his mind not invaded by lust, he doesn't incur death or death-like suffering. "I have given this simile to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: the wound stands for the six internal sense media; the poison, for ignorance; the arrow, for craving; the probe, for mindfulness; the knife, for noble discernment; the surgeon, for the Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened. "Now, when a monk -- maintaining restraint over the six spheres of contact, knowing that 'Acquisition is the root of stress' -- is free from acquisition, released in the total ending of acquisition, it's not possible that, with regard to acquisition, he would stir his body or arouse his mind. "Suppose there were a beverage in a bronze cup -- consummate in its color, smell, & flavor -- but mixed with poison. And suppose a man were to come along, wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring pleasure, & abhorring pain. What do you think, Sunakkhatta -- would he drink the beverage in the bronze cup knowing that 'Having drunk this, I will incur death or death-like suffering'?" "No, lord." "In the same way, when a monk -- maintaining restraint over the six spheres of contact, knowing that 'Acquisition is the root of stress' - - is free from acquisition, released in the total ending of acquisition, it's not possible that, with regard to acquisition, he would stir his body or arouse his mind. "Suppose there were a deadly poisonous viper, and a man were to come along, wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring pleasure, & abhorring pain. What do you think, Sunakkhatta -- would he give his hand or finger to the snake knowing that 'Having been bitten by this, I will incur death or death-like suffering'?" "No, lord." "In the same way, when a monk -- maintaining restraint over the six spheres of contact, knowing that 'Acquisition is the root of stress' - - is free from acquisition, released in the total ending of acquisition, it's not possible that, with regard to acquisition, he would stir his body or arouse his mind." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Sunakkhatta the Licchavin delighted in the Blessed One's words. ***************** Dhammapada III : The Mind 33-37: Quivering, wavering, hard to guard, to hold in check: the mind. The sage makes it straight -- like a fletcher, the shaft of an arrow. Like a fish pulled from its home in the water & thrown on land: this mind flips & flaps about to escape Mara's sway. Hard to hold down, nimble, alighting wherever it likes: the mind. Its taming is good. The mind well-tamed brings ease. So hard to see, so very, very subtle, alighting wherever it likes: the mind. The wise should guard it. The mind protected brings ease. Wandering far, going alone, bodiless, lying in a cave: the mind. Those who restrain it: from Mara's bonds they'll be freed. 38: For a person of unsteady mind, not knowing true Dhamma, serenity set adrift: discernment doesn't grow full. 39: For a person of unsoddened mind, unassaulted awareness, abandoning merit & evil, wakeful, there is no danger no fear. 40: Knowing this body is like a clay jar, securing this mind like a fort, attack Mara with the spear of discernment, then guard what's won without settling there, without laying claim. 41: All too soon, this body will lie on the ground cast off, bereft of consciousness, like a useless scrap of wood. 42-43: Whatever an enemy might do to an enemy, or a foe to a foe, the ill-directed mind can do to you even worse. Whatever a mother, father or other kinsman might do for you, the well-directed mind can do for you even better. Be well, be kind, and be gentle with yourself. With Metta, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo 517 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 11:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Changes in the schedule Dear Amara, By all means, lets meet for lunch tomorrow before heading over to the center. It is rather easy to get onto the expressway from this area and then go on to the Yommaraj part of the expressway to the Rama IX bridge. Would it be too much trouble for you to come out to Central Plaza Hotel? We could eat there (a nice Italian restaurant), and then get onto the highway directly from the hotel. But will call you tomorrow morning to confirm. I opened this too late tonight to call you. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Changes in the schedule > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > Khun Sujin has just called to tell me the time of the next English > discussion, tomorrow at 1:30 at the foundation building. She has > changed the programming in that when there are English speakers who > are interested, they would not have to wait for a certain day to hear > the dhamma, but would be able to contact her and set up the > discussions as needed. This of course cancels the every other > Saturday schedules, although I think that it is a pity... So if > anyone is visiting Bangkok, please set up your meetings with her > ahead > of time, to avoid disappointments. > > Betty, do you think you can find the foundation building? May I > invite you to lunch (my turn!) tomorrow? Please give me a call, > > Amara > 518 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 11:54pm Subject: Re: Guidelines ? Hello Amara, << ----- ... each level of knowledge is permanent, never to be questioned again ... it is much too extraordinary to miss ... Nor does one need anyone else to confirm the knowledge, it is real according to the Tipitaka ... -------- >> I agree.. Thank you.. There is no need to look for or acknowledge attainment.. It will be obvious.. << ------ May I suggest you be even more conscientious and not just experience the beginnings and endings of the trains of thoughts? While you are thinking there were millions of citta functioning in their infinitely swift opperations, your were probably seeing and hearing things while you were thinking, also, and there must have been bodily experiences:- the sight, sound, heat or cold, softness or hardness, motion or tension are all paramatthadhamma. They can all be studied to accumulate panna about the true characteristics of nama and rupa. Right now you are in front of the computer screen, is there no sight? Is it not completely different from sound, seeing from hearing? All this in turn are completely different in nature from touch, from smell, and especially from thoughts. These realities do not even have to be named or called anything in any language, at the level of sati, language and terminologies are useless, seeing realities as they really are is what accumulates real panna. -------- >> I have been doing exactly what you suggested for at least two years now.. Changes are seen without names or terms.. Just changes.. About <>, it is determined by Paramitta/Kamma, and it is "I" who can decide or change what it is seen in each moment of mindfulness.. Therefore, anything "I" can see, "I" must be mindful of it.. Amara, I am going to try to explain the best I can, and ask that you help me by trying to understand my thoughts behind the writing.. :-)) You wrote : <> When we have Concentration in the moment of Mindfulness, there can never be such thing as *WHILE* (ie, concurrent cittas).. When Concentration accompanies MIndfulness, we can only "see" (one citta), and there is no thinking, no vedana, no hearing, or nothing else going on besides "seeing".. I have moments of Mindfulness and moments of non-Mindfulness.. I have moment of Concentration and moments of non-Concentation.. I have moments of Effort and moments of non-Effort.. I recognize the moments when I "see" while thinking, hearing, etc.. I recognize the moments when I "see" and there is nothing else going on in my mind.. The difference is extremely clear.. I also recognize the moments when from lack of Effort, Effort comes in and I can see clearer.. Seeing the rise and fall.. Impermanence.. As far as I understand through my own practice, Mindfulness gets faster and faster with time and practice.. If Effort and Concentration continue to exist thus support Mindfulness, we can see the beginning and the ending of aggregates, and so, the rise and fall of Cittas, the rise and fall of sankhara, the rise and fall of vedana, etc.. There are moments I can see Cittas as "one event".. There are moments I can see the Rise of Cittas and the Fall of Cittas.. I only use some experience (like seeing, vedana) as examples to help me express my thoughts.. In practice, many times there is no term, no name, but there is a clear knowledge of the event is either Nama or Rupa.. By the way, when we are mindful of Cittas, the distinction (meaning) of touch, seeing, hearing, etc. is not important, because Mindfulness is busy with keeping up with Cittas as much as possible.. << ----- The citta is the element that knows, which makes it hard for it to know itself. It is a marvelous reality that only the complex accumulations of the citta can create, and only the panna accumulated through the citta can extinguish. -------- >> When Mindfulness, Effort, Concentration and Insight work together in balance, cittas will be known and immediately ended from moment to moment.. << ----- You are a programmer, and I can see that your typing is way above average, so I can't conceive that you are such a slow reader, perhaps rather you do not have the patience to read other's writings? But I really recommend you find a little time each day to read the advanced section of especially the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', which to me is the key to the Tipitaka as well as sati and panna and through the later, enlightenment. It is the most important book in the world to me, for the neccessary solid basics on dhamma studies. -------- >> Yes, I am an ex-programmer trying to come back, and yes, I type pretty fast.. Please do not think further that what I told you.. Please do not assume that my fast typing suggests my fast reading.. I simply need more time to read.. :-)) << ----- And the study of citta and their objects never intrude in daily life, not only did people attain knowledge while listening or reading or discussing the dhamma, but in the Tipitaka they did while they were working (one was a slave woman who attained when the pot boiled over!) and leaning down to rest, and lots of other situations, such as seeing a beautiful woman dancing or something to that effect, as well. ... -------- >> I heard that Tipitaka mentioned that there were people who attained Sainthood during the time they washed their feet, or listened to half of a Buddha's saying.. Paramitta !! (or is it Parami ??) I do things as much as I can, and have not wished to have someone else's Paramitta.. If Kamma gives me so much time to read and finish a book, I am happy with it.. It took me, off and on, about 2-3 years to finish one book, "Buddha and His Teachings".. I don't feel odd or underpriviledged in my ability to read, because I digested each word with Piti, practiced as I read, and finally, forgot most of what I read, except how to be mindful of my body and mind.. Years ago, I took Effective Reading (or speed reading), but I would not allow myself to scan through Tipitaka and other meditation books.. Practicing and Reading come together, and so, reading must take time.. :-)) Sometimes, simple words like "relax your mind and body" put me directly into Piti or sometimes strong Concentration (Jhana or whatever it is) when my eyes were open, and then a series of Mindfulness so Cittas and other stuffs were clearly experienced and known.. I read Suttas for my own meditation benefits, first and foremost, and for communication to dhamma friends, second.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 519 From: Theresa Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 0:24am Subject: About Reading and Practicing Hello Jonothan, << ----- You suggest that the truths taught by the Buddha can be experienced for themselves. Of course they can. But (and it's a big but) only by developing the understanding of realities exactly as taught by the Buddha also. This means that if the practice is not correct from the beginning, the experiences that follow will not be those of the Buddha's teaching, no matter how similar they may appear to be. So just because we have experiences that seem to be confirmed by the teachings, this should not be taken as meaning that our practice has been correct. Our lack of understanding and wrong view (not to mention our conceit) is bound to colour our judgement. -------- >> If Buddha mentioned Mindfulness and we practice until we have it, we don't have Wrong View.. If Buddha mentioned Concentration and we practice it until we have it, we don't have Wrong Concentration.. etc. * If we read Buddha's teaching with an open mind of a child, without fear, without worry, without doubt; * if we read Tipitaka with an unshakable Faith that Buddha's Dhamma is our safety net, and * if we learn Dhamma by practicing exactly as taught, step by step, ---- nothing can go wrong ---- Wrong View, Wrong Understanding, Wrong Concentration, or whatever else might be wrong can only happen because of our expectation (lobha) and our fear/worry/doubt (Dosa).. If we practice Dhamma step by step, Dhamma is the light to guide us forward in the jungle of Moha.. << ----- In the Buddha's time, the practice began with listening (at length) to the teachings. Why should it be any different today? And next time you read a sutta, you might like to question whether the Buddha was really instructing his listeners to go and do a special meditation practice. -------- >> Here's how I read Tipitaka, commentaries, or meditation books.. I forget everything else, read a word/sentence/paragraph at a time, and try to understand what it taught by experiencing it immediately right after finishing reading it.. If I don't understand it, I will re-read it many times until I understand it enough to practice it immediately.. If after re-reading it many times for 2-3 days or few weeks, I will contact my teacher or a nun by phone and ask for their explanations and layman terms, and then, I practiced immediately what I just learned and understood from reading.. I will not read any further until I can practice whatever Dhamma I just read.. I read and practice at my own pace, according to my own kamma/paramitta.. I am happy with whatever I have and ask nothing more.. Nibbana ?? It's something I don't know right now.. It's not mine until I am qualified for it with perfection (Paramitta) of mental qualities taught by Buddha.. I'm more concerned with developing and perfecting mental qualities (ie, the Noble Path).. :-)) This is how I read and learn Buddha's Dhamma, and so, I have no fear, no doubt, no worry for the possibility that I might be in the wrong path.. Let us be mindful of our body and mind as much as we can.. With metta, Theresa. 520 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 1:35am Subject: Re: Guidelines ? > About < opperations>>, it is determined by Paramitta/Kamma, and it is "I" who > can decide or change what it is seen in each moment of mindfulness.. > Therefore, anything "I" can see, "I" must be mindful of it.. Theresa, Not even the Buddha can change the nature of realities, nor control them, or 'decide or change what is seen in each moment'. One might think that one can, but they arise and fall away according to conditions and can only be known. There is no I, no atta to do this, it is ignorance to believe there is anyone in control. > By the way, when we are mindful of Cittas, the distinction (meaning) > of touch, seeing, hearing, etc. is not important, because Mindfulness > is busy with keeping up with Cittas as much as possible.. This is not true, sati does not arise in a continuous stream, but as instants of knowledge of the precise object or the precise citta. Otherwise it is just thinking that you have sati. Read about the true nature of sati if you wish in the Summary. It is also the key to the understanding of the Sutta which are only stories about different nama and rupa in diverse situations. Talking about your misunderstandings without learning what is right or wrong according to the Buddha's teachings seems a pity to me, if I were you I would take the time to read more, even if it took me a century I would try to read the summary, it would make your writings ever so much more interesting! =^_^= Amara 521 From: Mike Potter Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 10:40am Subject: Re: About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Dear Theresa, --- "Theresa " wrote: > Would you please explain the "link" (similarities?) between the > Vipassana practice as I have known, learned and practiced, and > the "teaching" (wrong term?) of Sujin Boriharnwanaket.. I ask for your > explanations, because it seems that you, Mike, have knowledge of both > practices/teachings: Sujin's and Mahasi's "techniques/teachings" > (terms?).. I have read a few of Kuhn Sujin's writings and several of the books written by one of her students, Nina van Gorkom. I have found them to be quite helpful in explaining the practical aspects and applications of the Abhidhamma - the interplay of the various conditioned realities. Such study and reflection helps one recognize such realities when they present themselves - both in daily activities and during meditation - to see phenomena in its true state of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness. The similarities are many. However, they are different "techniques". Yet they are both grounded in scripture and arrive at the very same place: Insight into reality. So the difference in them seems to lie in the manner in which the teachings are applied in one's experience. Due to my own accumulations, the Mahasi approach resonates better for me. I find the other to be more "intellectual" and less experiential" than the Mahasi approach. Yet for others, this may not be so. What I have learned from the exchanges here is that my mind has a tendency to become intellectual. This has actually been a teaching in itself. When this happens, I notice a mental "constriction", so to speak; so I just sign off for a while, and let my awareness move from "my head" back to "my heart" :-) So it is merely my own way of keeping the five spiritual faculties (faith, discernment, mindfulness, energy, and concentration) in balance. > As I know, there is only one Buddha's teaching.. While there is only one Dhamma, it is my understanding that the Buddha taught in different ways to different people depending on their own accumulations. To those of quick intellect, he taught one way; and for those of slow intellect he taught another. So the method that is best suited will vary among individuals. > Q # 1 : Why do discussions on this list seem to stress on > the "differences in views", whereas it seems to me that there is no > difference ?? > > Sitting is one of the four natural postures of a human being, and so > Sitting Meditation is an off-course.. During Sitting Meditation, the > body is not moving and the eyes are probably closed, and so, the > number of distractions reduces drastically.. The benefits of Sitting > Meditation is appreciated because the reduced number of > distractions.. Sitting Meditation is a good condition for the arise > of Concentration.. I have followed the Vipassana practice taught by > Venerable Mahasi, and meditated in all 4 postures (ie, sitting, > standing, walking, and lying-down).. If we are mindful, we should be > able to know when "Self" is present and when "Self-less" is present.. > When Mindfulness is continuous, there is no chance for "Self".. Good question. I've wondered the same thing; and I concur with your response. Views are of the mind - intellectual - while Insight is a non-cognative realization of realities. There's a big difference. > Q # 2 : Is there a belief that Sitting Meditation is needless or > useless ?? (( I believe that it is crucial to not miss Sitting > Meditation as part of our practice, because we sit many times during > the day, in a car, on a chair, in bed, on the floor, on the > meditation cushion, at work, at home, on a stool, in the yard, > etc. )) I concur with your response. > Q # 3 : What does your own personal experience tell you about the > suggestion that meditators should not bother with Sitting Meditation > at all but they should simply carry on their lives as life goes ?? > (( My own experience tells me that Sitting Meditation helps condition > my mind so that Concentration and Mindfulness would be more > continuous and gained much easier during my normal-living daily > practice.. My experience is the same. > Q # 4 : Have you found a good way to communicate your experiences > (realities) as dana to dhamma friends, if they have not experienced > the same realities as you did ?? Not any better ways than you have done on this list by sharing yours. You are a wonderful teacher, Theresa. I am grateful for your many contributions. With metta, Mike 522 From: Mike Potter Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Robert, Thank you for your comments. It's good to hear from you again. > Mike I notice already some changes in your thinking- > you lean a little more towards anatta now.... > > I think you said that you have been studying > abhidhamma a little over a year – perhaps you can > remember your views before you started. Perhaps now > there is better understanding? But no you who made it > happen. > But now your views are modified, It wasn't by sitting > and concentrating - it happened because you heard (by > conditions) And reflected (by conditions) on the > Buddhas teaching TO SOME EXTENT. Yes, reflection is important. And I don't mean to minimize it. It is critical to the awakening process. But reflection is still thinking. If done skillfully, with an intention to "let go" of thinking and just rest in the moment (no-mind), conditions for wisdom can arise. What is YOUR experience of Insight? How would you describe it? Are you reflecting at that precise moment? Are you reflecting just before it or just after it, but not at that moment? Is that "knowing" you've experienced really a conative process ("connecting the dots") or something that is simply an awareness of reality that wasn't there a moment before (just "dots") due to causes and conditions? For me, it was by sitting and concentrating (vipassana, not samadhi) that sufficient conditions were brought about to support the arising of many deep Insights into anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Reflections may have occurred before and/or afterward (proximate or remote), but at the precise moment of the experience of Insight there was no thought at all . . . And it is that same sitting and concentrating that carries over into daily life and provides appropriate conditions - through a mind that is more open, vulnerable, sensative, and alert - to see things as they really are. So it was TO SOME EXTENT by reflection on the Buddha's teachings and TO SOME EXTENT by merely being present in the moment without thinking. One cannot cling to anything at all, including reflections. . . :-) While knowlege of the Dhamma is necessary in one's practice, it is my experience that too much "thinking" can be a hindrance? ;-) With metta, Mike 523 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 0:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Dear GROUP Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas (see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa. Studying the Titipika – the Vinaya, the Suttanta, the Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how can we practice correctly? We might be practicing something different from the Buddha's teaching. But how do we study? Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating. Every sentence has deep meaning. Let us consider the word “complication”. This was In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha “This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.”'I looked up the pali of this sentence: “nippapancaramassayam dhammo nippapancaratino nayam dhammo papancaramassa papancarintino” What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and non-complication? I once heard someone –referring to this sutta- say this meant people should not think too much because this complicates things and takes people away from the present moment. And in a superficial way there is something in this. But we can always learn more. Complication in this sutta is the English translation for papanca. There are three papanca – tanha (desire), ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong samasara vata , the round of births and deaths. And now we may want to understand what the Buddha mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or is there more to it? So we study a little more - we learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I 597) says that wordly life is diversified (another word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, lamentation. The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind. Then we might wonder – well is this process of Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just this question over and over one may learn that even when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be present.– For example I am sitting in my office in Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn’t apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these moments in daily life can we find out the answers and really learn just what life is and what the Buddha taught. Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it? Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early practice). But we can also understand it; and I think that is most useful. Then we can study its characteristic more. We might find that it is very common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati. But if we are prepared to study tanha again and again – and of course not neglect the direct study of all other realities- we might become wary of its tricks. We might start to see the difference between true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. Also we might find out that when we thought we had sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin to realize that when we had the idea that we could make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things out we are learning something of immeasurable value. We are learning what we really are – a skin bag stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to comprehend what this path involves. This letter started off to discuss one word from a sutta – papanca .So far we haven’t even scratched the surface on one aspect of papanca. That is to be expected. One aeon is so long – Billions and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took four incalculably long periods of time plus one hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become a Buddha . We don’t have to develop parami to the extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who have so much parami already but this is just tanha, one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who already have great parami, but this is mana, another papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made this aspiration that “questioning discerning people all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of wisdom’. But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so rigorously and then considered how to ask even more discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss with many helpful people but get nothing from it. It is our attitude when investigating that is important. One could be intent on learning about papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas while studying and not even realize that sometimes it was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case then no great benefit comes from such research. We need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the purpose of discussion is to help us better understand this moment. SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone else. I need to develop more listening skills, more questioning skills . I need to study much more , countless times more the characteristics of tanha and mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more the words in the Tipitika. Robert 524 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 17, 2000 0:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Mike, Basically I agree with what you said. > > "Yes, reflection is important. And I don't mean to > minimize it. It > is critical to the awakening process. But > reflection is still > thinking. If done skillfully, with an intention to > "let go" of > thinking and just rest in the moment (no-mind), > conditions for wisdom > can arise." Reflection is not the same as direct insight but we must be very careful not to assume that merely because there is no thinking and one feels calm that this means we are experincing realities with sati and panna. There can still be subtle delusion present - even the "intention to let go" as you put it can still be hiding the ditthi, view that there is somebody to let go. > > What is YOUR experience of Insight? How would you > describe it? Are > you reflecting at that precise moment? Are you > reflecting just > before it or just after it, but not at that moment? > Is that "knowing" The Buddha said that the path is so gradual that one can hardly notice the development. It doesn't necesarily knock one on the head. Refer to the comments about the tapes earlier this week on the discussion group. However, on occasion it does seem that awareness is vivid. (But then was it really awareness or just an imitation?)Sometimes this happens during or after a time of reflection, or even during a Dhamma talk but sometimes it just comes totally out of the blue - even when one is so tired and apparently distracted - it is like a bolt of lightening - it can surprise. It happens like that too. But these are not, for me anyway, common occurences- mostly it is just a very gradual understanding that separates the 6 doors, that separates paramattha dhamma from concept in daily life. While I am talking to people, for example, there is sometimes a process of dissection going on: studying the different moments of sound, of color, of seeing. And of course most of the time I am just carried away by the stream of defilements - but that is ok because defilements are real. It is just the way things must be. I have found that awareness itself can be clung to. One wants more and more. One wants it to be clearer and clearer - but this is just tanha. The idea is to reduce all idea of self, of getting something for self. People are so keen to have awareness; but why? True awareness gradually takes away everything until we see more and more that there is nothing. How many people are ready to see that? I am happy to go slowly. > "While knowlege of the Dhamma is necessary in one's > practice, it is my > experience that too much "thinking" can be a > hindrance? ;-") > Certainly Mike you are right here. In thailand there are Abhidhamma experts (even a few students of Khun Sujins) who fit this description. It is a good warning for me too. I am inclined to overevaluate intellectual understanding and neglect direct study of realities. > Robert > > > 525 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:42am Subject: Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Robert, Basically I agree with what you said in response. > Reflection is not the same as direct insight but we > must be very careful not to assume that merely because > there is no thinking and one feels calm that this > means we are experincing realities with sati and > panna. There can still be subtle delusion present - > even the "intention to let go" as you put it can still > be hiding the ditthi, view that there is somebody to > let go. Yes. The delusion of the conceit "I am" is not totally eradicated until the level of Arahant, even though the grosser form (view of self) is eliminated at the level of Stream-winner. So this view is very deep rooted. The perception that there is somebody to let go is so very subtle. One must be diligent in seeing it's characteristics, which often manifest as some form of pride of accomplishment. > I have found that awareness itself can be clung to. > One wants more and more. One wants it to be clearer > and clearer - but this is just tanha. The idea is to > reduce all idea of self, of getting something for > self. People are so keen to have awareness; but why? > True awareness gradually takes away everything until > we see more and more that there is nothing. How many > people are ready to see that? Yes, it's like peeling an onion until there is nothing left - not even a center! People are reluctant to see "nothing" because they think that "they" (i.e., the self) will disappear. Great fear often arises when one first realizes the emptiness of conditioned phenomena. In truth, emptiness is full. But until one can see it from a perspective of anatta, which is itself empty, emptiness has the appearance of a void. > I am happy to go slowly. I want to be sure that I understand what you mean. Some go slowly along the Path in comparison with others, while others go more quickly. It all depends on one's accumulations. I'm sure you are familiar with the simile of the musical instrument. See AN VI.55 at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an6-55.html One's efforts must be like the string of a fine instrument. Too much effort (over-tightening the string) to "progess" quickly does not produce a melodeous sound, since it is not in tune with the instrument as a whole. Too little effort leads to slakening and lack of resolve, which is also unskilful. The right amount of effort produces a harmoneous sound that allows the instrument to reach it's full potential. Whether one is slow or fast can only be measured by comparison with the "progress" of others. Such a practice of "comparing mind" leads to feelings of separation and conceit, which is unskilful. What is "just right" for you may be slow or fast in relation to someone else. Since each person is unique, comparisons are irrelevant. The key is the application of Right Effort (along with the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path) that is attuned to your own unique accumulations. With that said, do you mean that you are content not to go more quickly than would be so with the application of Right Effort? Or is it something else? With metta, Mike 526 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jun 18, 2000 8:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) When I said I am happy to go slow I meant I am perfectly content with understanding to arise gradually as it must. I am patient to let true insight arise by conditions. When I began to learn about Buddhism I was so excited to think I was having stages of insight. So pleased if a teacher told me that "I" was making progress. So sad if "stages" didnt come. It was all just more Tanha (desire) mana(conceit) and ditthi(view). I separated daily life form the times when I was making "real " efforts. This is delusion - at all times there are nama and rupa only. I see that it is very difficult for people to understand what sati is. That sati of satipatthana comes with detachment. It is quite different from samadhi. Until this distinction is understood one will see the path as a matter of trying and getting something. I used to put in great effort - but it was done with the hope of getting something. Getting some 'sign" or something. Wanting something within 5 years, 20 years , this life. It is very different now - my interest is always to understand just one moment. I don't think much about making effort or balancing faculties or whatever - I find these things take care of themself provided "I" am not in the way. I see more and more clearly how common tanha is and that it cannot be eradicated quickly. I know that any moment is a chance for understanding to grow. In the early years I was afraid of defilements- I thought they hindered progress. Now I welcome them as objects for insight. Thus the practice is so relaxing now. Life becomes just one moment and then another. Patience and detachment gradually develop alongside understanding. It is completely different from how I used to think the path was or would be. Robert > > > I am happy to go slowly. > > I want to be sure that I understand what you mean. > > Some go slowly along the Path in comparison with > others, while others > go more quickly. It all depends on one's > accumulations. I'm sure > you are familiar with the simile of the musical > instrument. See AN > VI.55 at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an6-55.html > > One's efforts must be like the string of a fine > instrument. Too > much effort (over-tightening the string) to > "progess" quickly does > not produce a melodeous sound, since it is not in > tune with the > instrument as a whole. Too little effort leads to > slakening and lack > of resolve, which is also unskilful. The right > amount of effort > produces a harmoneous sound that allows the > instrument to reach it's > full potential. > > Whether one is slow or fast can only be measured by > comparison with > the "progress" of others. Such a practice of > "comparing mind" leads > to feelings of separation and conceit, which is > unskilful. What is > "just right" for you may be slow or fast in relation > to someone else. > Since each person is unique, comparisons are > irrelevant. The key is > the application of Right Effort (along with the > other seven factors > of the Noble Eightfold Path) that is attuned to your > own unique > accumulations. > > With that said, do you mean that you are content not > to go more > quickly than would be so with the application of > Right Effort? Or is > it something else? > > With metta, > > Mike > > > 527 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Jun 18, 2000 10:13am Subject: Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Robert, Just as I thought. My experience has been much the same. Thank you for sharing, my friend. With metta, Mike --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > When I said I am happy to go slow I meant I am > perfectly content with understanding to arise > gradually as it must. I am patient to let true insight > arise by conditions. When I began to learn about > Buddhism I was so excited to think I was having stages > of insight. So pleased if a teacher told me that "I" > was making progress. So sad if "stages" didnt come. It > was all just more Tanha (desire) mana(conceit) and > ditthi(view). I separated daily life form the times > when I was making "real " efforts. This is delusion - > at all times there are nama and rupa only. > > I see that it is very difficult for people to > understand what sati is. That sati of satipatthana > comes with detachment. It is quite different from > samadhi. Until this distinction is understood one will > see the path as a matter of trying and getting > something. > I used to put in great effort - but it was done with > the hope of getting something. Getting some 'sign" or > something. Wanting something within 5 years, 20 years > , this life. It is very different now - my interest is > always to understand just one moment. I don't think > much about making effort or balancing faculties or > whatever - I find these things take care of themself > provided "I" am not in the way. I see more and more > clearly how common tanha is and that it cannot be > eradicated quickly. I know that any moment is a chance > for understanding to grow. > > In the early years I was afraid of defilements- I > thought they hindered progress. Now I welcome them as > objects for insight. Thus the practice is so relaxing > now. Life becomes just one moment and then another. > Patience and detachment gradually develop alongside > understanding. It is completely different from how I > used to think the path was or would be. > > Robert > > > > > I am happy to go slowly. > > > > I want to be sure that I understand what you mean. > > > > Some go slowly along the Path in comparison with > > others, while others > > go more quickly. It all depends on one's > > accumulations. I'm sure > > you are familiar with the simile of the musical > > instrument. See AN > > VI.55 at > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an6-55.html > > > > One's efforts must be like the string of a fine > > instrument. Too > > much effort (over-tightening the string) to > > "progess" quickly does > > not produce a melodeous sound, since it is not in > > tune with the > > instrument as a whole. Too little effort leads to > > slakening and lack > > of resolve, which is also unskilful. The right > > amount of effort > > produces a harmoneous sound that allows the > > instrument to reach it's > > full potential. > > > > Whether one is slow or fast can only be measured by > > comparison with > > the "progress" of others. Such a practice of > > "comparing mind" leads > > to feelings of separation and conceit, which is > > unskilful. What is > > "just right" for you may be slow or fast in relation > > to someone else. > > Since each person is unique, comparisons are > > irrelevant. The key is > > the application of Right Effort (along with the > > other seven factors > > of the Noble Eightfold Path) that is attuned to your > > own unique > > accumulations. > > > > With that said, do you mean that you are content not > > to go more > > quickly than would be so with the application of > > Right Effort? Or is > > it something else? > > > > With metta, > > > > Mike > > > > > > 528 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jun 18, 2000 11:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Mike, Thanks for the feedback and let me apologize for not thanking you for the question in the first place. I got involved with writing my reply to you and then sent it off forgetting that I hadn't even put Dear Mike at the beginning. I will try to add some more comments about effort and the path during future postings to this list. It is a fine subject but so subtle. Discussing it can be helpful. Did you read the posting I made yesterday about papanca? I wanted to show that even at the level of study there has to be the correct attitude and that it needs viriya (effort)too. When trying to explain Dhamma to others I find that the times are such that I am always having to sound a note of caution: Auntie Robert who is always saying "be careful". In another age I might be saying almost the opposite: "strive harder in satipatthana, you have studied enough already". Indeed to those who have listened a lot Khun sujin stresses effort to understand the present moment. By and large I find most people are looking for quick results these days and few are ready to put in the effort to find out what the Buddha really taught. They want to practice only but don't really know what it is all about. People are very impressed by the charisma of Buddhist teachers and are looking for improvements in their character more than seeing that it is detachment from all ideas of self that must be developed. Thanks again Robert --- Mike Potter wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Just as I thought. My experience has been much the > same. Thank you > for sharing, my friend. > > With metta, > > Mike > > 530 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:22am Subject: 'Asoka' by Nina Alan, May I ask you to confirm your permission to take things from your site? I would like to add Nina's book on her trip to India to DS, so would it be possible for you to send me the files in another format besides the Adobe Acrobat, I have not been able to find a way to convert the files other than page by page. If there is no other the way I will do so but if you could send them in any form of 'Word' for example, it would make my task so much simpler. Thank you again for all the kindnesses you have shown us from the very start, and anumodana for the great kusala in creating the first website for as well as the beautiful printing of Nina's and Khun Sujin's writings and books, Amara 531 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 11:29am Subject: next Saturday Dear K. Amara, K. Ivan, K. Ell and K. Shin, What a terrific session we had on Saturday and am truly looking forward to next Saturday as well. Many thanks for all your patience with my ignorance. Have spoken with K. Jeed since Achaan Suchin is up country, but may we keep next week's session at 2pm like we did last time? I must have gotten my dates mixed up because the ordination is on Sunday and Sat. I will be free during the afternoon. Sorry for inconveniencing everyone. With metta, Betty 532 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:15pm Subject: Forwarded posting Dear all, I just wanted to share this with you, it's from the venerable Heng Shun, Amara >From: "Heng Shun" >Subject: Dhamma Study Discussion Group >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:49:27 PDT > Amara, Just wanted to let you know that I've had to temporarily unsubscribe to the Dhamma Study Discussion Group. I was accepted for a full scholarship for a 6-week seminar at Harvard University entitled "World Religions in America," for high school teachers of World Religions and related fields. The program is very intense. I'll be leaving in a few days. If there is anything I can help with, or if you or others in the group need to contact me for anything, don't hesitate to contact at my e-mail address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=180056234108099125130158203004176222188144238179209171188199 Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 533 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:36pm Subject: Re: next Saturday Dear M. Betty, That is so great! Looking forward to seeing you at the foundation on Saturday at 2:00 then, and please say hi to Whiskers for me, Amara 534 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 8:32pm Subject: The Three Marks of Existence Dear Friends, The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - ourselves included - have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca), unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or nonsubstantiality (anatta). When we fail to recognize these three characteristics of existence, we regard that which is impermanent as permanent, that which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the selfless as possessing an unchanging self. In "The Real Facts of Life - Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of Existence" (The Wheel Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically explores these characteristics through many examples that can easily be found in everyday life. It may be read online at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top With metta, Mike 535 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Three Marks of Existence Dear Mike, Thanks for the article which I think is quite helpful as an introduction for people who want an introduction to Buddhist ideas. Of course thinking about anicca, dukkha and anatta in daily life as the author recommends is not the same as experiencing realities directly. But this type of thinking can be done with kusala citta and is therefore beneficial. The best parts are when he mentions about eye and eye base and so on under the section about mental phenomena. One little point Mike. You wrote "that all conditioned things - ourselves included- have three characteristics: impermanence..." It should be noted that only paramattha dhammas have the tilakkhana, three characteristics. Thus a concept such as "ourselves" which is entirely non-existent cannot have the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. I wouldn't have bothered bringing this up as I know you understand this Mike, except that recently I read an article on the net by a Buddhist teacher who seemed to really confuse exactly this point.It is a rather subtle but important matter. So at the risk of sounding pedantic I take the opprtunity of pointing this out. If anyone wants more explanations about this please write and I will try to elaborate Robert --- Mike Potter wrote: > Dear Friends, > > The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - > ourselves included - > have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca), > unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or > nonsubstantiality > (anatta). When we fail to recognize these three > characteristics of > existence, we regard that which is impermanent as > permanent, that > which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the > selfless as > possessing an unchanging self. In "The Real Facts > of Life - > Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of > Existence" (The Wheel > Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically > explores these > characteristics through many examples that can > easily be found in > everyday life. It may be read online at > http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top > > > With metta, > > Mike > 536 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 9:46pm Subject: The three meanings of dukkha Dear friends in the dhamma, During last Saturday's discussion we discussed dukkha, of which there are three (I had forgotten one of them when I said two earlier). 1. Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara. I have had to change all the translations I did where the incorrect word had been used in the Summary on the web as well as in our documents, so if anyone finds any mistakes that escaped my notice, could they please tell me. We also discussed the fact that most Thais have long confused dukkha for dukkha dukkha and most translators make the same mistakes. Robert, could you please elaborate the three meanings of dukkha a little for us, when you could find the time? Amara 537 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 19, 2000 10:00pm Subject: Re: The Three Marks of Existence --- "Mike Potter" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - ourselves included - > have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca), > unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or nonsubstantiality > (anatta). When we fail to recognize these three characteristics of > existence, we regard that which is impermanent as permanent, that > which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the selfless as > possessing an unchanging self. In "The Real Facts of Life - > Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of Existence" (The Wheel > Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically explores these > characteristics through many examples that can easily be found in > everyday life. It may be read online at > http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top > > With metta, > > Mike Mike, Thank you for telling us about your new article, I will look at it right away. I am glad you found a bigger place for your website, your collection of dhamma writings must have grown quite a bit by now. Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, Amara 538 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 0:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The three meanings of dukkha Robert, could you please elaborate the three > meanings of dukkha a > little for us, when you could find the time Dear amara, I will write a little.Please correct me if you see any errors. There is really no end to what we could say about dukkha - it is happening continually in all realms of existence. You wrote that dukkha can be classified in the following three ways 1 “Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara.” Yes. that is how I understand it. The first, dukkha-dukkha includes all painful feeling. In the human realm we experience this regularly as either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by considering the 6doors: when visible object comes into contact with the eye-sense and seeing consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. When the visible object goes the sense pleasure to the eye disappears. The same with all the other doors of ear, nose tongue, body mind. Thus all beings are forced to do all kinds of things good and bad to try to ensure a continual supply of pleasant objects for these doors. The truly pathetic, miserable nature of samasara can be gauged by how often we indulge in activities (designed to bring us these pleasurable objects) that as akusala kamma, can only give unpleasant results . Thus deep is ignorance. And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to comprehend. Anyone can reason and understand the first two aspects of dukkha. We all know about pain, dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the eightfactored path. The Buddha often said “Birth is suffering old age is suffering, death is suffering…….In short the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha.” The deep meaning of the last part of the phrase becomes clear if we consider the Samyutta-Nikaya, Khandha-Vagga where it says “Corporeality is a murderer, as are vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana”. Yes, we are so attached to these khandas but this is only because we can’t see that at every moment they are breaking up. This dukkha-ariya-sacca is deep. Robert 539 From: Theresa Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 5:37am Subject: Re: The three meanings of dukkha Hello Amara, << ----- During last Saturday's discussion we discussed dukkha, of which there are three (I had forgotten one of them when I said two earlier). 1. Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara. -------- >> Thank you for sharing.. About Sankhara-dukkha or Viparinama-dukkha, we need to see the "arising" (the Rise) and the "falling away" (the Fall) of <> This is exactly what I mean, in my earlier posts, about "Dukkha", "Impermanence" and "Anatta", and about the Rise and the Fall of Sankharas (ie, what we see/experience from moment to moment with Mindfulness.. I referred to my practical experience..) This post is my attempt to compare terms and point out that you and I have been spoken about the exact same thing.. with metta, Theresa. 540 From: Theresa Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 5:54am Subject: Re: The three meanings of dukkha Hello Robert and Amara, << ----- You wrote that dukkha can be classified in the following three ways 1."Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara." Yes. that is how I understand it. The first, dukkha-dukkha includes all painful feeling. In the human realm we experience this regularly as either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by considering the 6doors: when..object comes into contact with the ..sense and..consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. When the ..object goes the sense pleasure to the eye disappears. ... And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to comprehend. ...We all know about pain, dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the eightfactored path. --------- >> Please double-check with Khun Sujin on my behalf about what I write here : (1) Dukkha-Dukkha is directly linked to the physical matter (our body).. (2) viparinama dukkha .. I don't quite understand your explanations for this term. (3) " sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the deepest meaning of dukkha. " This is exactly what I have tried to explain with my layman terms for weeks now, but I didn't know how to express my thoughts.. This type of Dukkha is what I have experienced off and on and known by practice.. This is the first Noble Truth; it can only be experienced through practical experience, and there is no way anyone can understand it intellectually.. It is understood only when there is a "continual rising and ceasing of dhammas" (ie, sankharas being known directly with Mindfulness); therefore, CONTINUOUS MINDFULNESS, the RISE, and the FALL of aggregates are not merely "concepts" or "terms", but are actual practical experience that meditators can experience when applying Buddha's Dhamma from moment to moment... In term of practice, how do Continuous Mindfulness and Impermanence fit into the idea of Self- less ?? Please ask Khun Sujin this question, and share her answer with us, me included.. Please tell Khun Sujin that I bow deeply to her and have great respect for her as a wonderful teacher.. With metta, Theresa. 541 From: Theresa Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 8:35am Subject: Re: The Three Marks of Existence Hello Robert, << ----- You [Mike] wrote "that all conditioned things - ourselves included- have three characteristics: impermanence..." It should be noted that only paramattha dhammas have the tilakkhana, three characteristics. Thus a concept such as "ourselves" which is entirely non-existent cannot have the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. -------- >> "Self" is non-existent... Yes, if we really see so through Lakkhanas.. No, otherwise... How do anyone convince people, who hold a strong belief in a "permanent Soul", that "Self" is non-existent and nothing but a concept ??.. They see "Self" as reality, and they might think we are out of our mind to speak of "Self-less"... How do meditators see "Self is non-existent" as reality ?? If by listening to Dhamma talks or learning from books, it's debatable, because it based on pure Faith... If by practicing Dhamma and experiencing Lakkhanas with Continuous Mindfulness, it's an unshakable belief... "Self" is a conditioned thing !!! A thought is a conditioned thing.. A pain is a conditioned thing.. A vedana is a conditioned thing.. A consciousness is a conditioned thing.. A Mindfulness moment is a conditioned thing.. All sankharas are conditioned things.. Mindfulness is a conditioned thing.. Concentration is a conditioned thing.. etc. etc. etc. Therefore, Self is a conditioned thing.. Except Nibbana, what is not a conditioned thing ?? Pain is non-existent because it is a conditioned thing.. Hurt is non-existent because it is a conditioned thing.. A thought is non-existent because it is a conditioned thing.. Walking is non-existent because it is a conditioned thing.. Talking is non-existent because it is a conditioned thing.. etc. etc. etc. Therefore, "Self" is non-existent.. "Self" lasts long as one instant thought, one instant pain, one instant hurt, etc. etc... Many thoughts, many pain, many hurt, combined into many instances of "Self".. Therefore, "Self" has all three Lakkhanas.. ie, by seeing Lakkanas directly and continuously, the concept of "Self" is understood as non- existent.. Without Lakkhanas, "Self" seems to be existent and permanent.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 542 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 10:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Three Marks of Existence Dear Theresa, You wrote ---"Self" is non-existent... > Yes, if we really see so through Lakkhanas.. > No, otherwise... > > How do anyone convince people, who hold a strong > belief in > a "permanent Soul", that "Self" is non-existent and > nothing but a > concept ??.. They see "Self" as reality, and they > might think we are > out of our mind to speak of "Self-less"... Yes, this true. But understanding into the tilakkhanas (anicca, dukkha, anatta) doesn't suddenly arise . We have to have someone explain it to us and then we may gradually develop deeper insight by studying paramattha dhammas directly. you then wrote. "How do meditators see "Self is non-existent" as > reality ?? > If by listening to Dhamma talks or learning from > books, it's > debatable, because it based on pure Faith..." In the Kitagiri sutta; sutta 70 of the Majjihima nikaya the Buddha said "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? As to this bhikkhus, one who has faith draws close; drawing close, he sits down nearby; sitting down nearby he lends ear; lending ear, he hears Dhamma; having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there being approval of the things, chanda is born; with chanda born he makes an effort; having made the effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up, he strives; being self-resolute, he realises with his person the highest truth itself and, penetrating it by means of wisdom, he sees. But, bhikkhus had there not been that faith, there would not have been that drawing near; there would not have been that sitting down..." These days so many people are very convinced they are already at the later stages of this gradual training. But this gradual training takes a long time. We may need to go back again and again to the very earliest stages. If we try to test Dhamma before we even know what it is we may pass tests that are merely an imitation. You said > "If by practicing Dhamma and experiencing Lakkhanas > with Continuous > Mindfulness, it's an unshakable belief..." Thinking you can have continual mindfulness is an illusion, a delusion that exists through a belief in self. Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness why not start to see that everything including mindfulness depends on complex conditions, that mindfulness is very broken up and non-continuous indeed. You wrote "Self" is a conditioned thing !!! > A thought is a conditioned thing.. > A pain is a conditioned thing.. > A vedana is a conditioned thing.. > A consciousness is a conditioned thing.. > A Mindfulness moment is a conditioned thing.. > All sankharas are conditioned things.. > Mindfulness is a conditioned thing.. > Concentration is a conditioned thing.. > etc. etc. etc. > Therefore, Self is a conditioned thing.." You are mixing concept, (samutti) with paramattha dhammas (absolute realities.) The thinking process is composed of paramattha dhammas, pain is aparamattha dhamma, vedana, consciousness, mindfulnes,concentration and all sankharas are paramattha dhammas but self is merely concept, an idea. > "Pain is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > Hurt is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > A thought is non-existent because it is a > conditioned thing.. > Walking is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > Talking is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.." It is another extreme to say that paramattha dhammas such as pain do not exist. The Buddha takes the middle path between existence and non- existence by teaching the conditioned nature of phenomena. Walking is concept - it comes about because of the idea of a whole. The realities are only citta, cetasika and rupa. Robert > Hello Robert, > > << ----- > You [Mike] wrote "that all conditioned things - > ourselves included- > have three characteristics: impermanence..." It > should be noted that > only paramattha dhammas have the tilakkhana, three > characteristics. > Thus a concept such as "ourselves" which is entirely > non-existent > cannot have the three characteristics of anicca, > dukkha and anatta. > -------- >> > > "Self" is non-existent... > Yes, if we really see so through Lakkhanas.. > No, otherwise... > > How do anyone convince people, who hold a strong > belief in > a "permanent Soul", that "Self" is non-existent and > nothing but a > concept ??.. They see "Self" as reality, and they > might think we are > out of our mind to speak of "Self-less"... > > > > "Self" is a conditioned thing !!! > A thought is a conditioned thing.. > A pain is a conditioned thing.. > A vedana is a conditioned thing.. > A consciousness is a conditioned thing.. > A Mindfulness moment is a conditioned thing.. > All sankharas are conditioned things.. > Mindfulness is a conditioned thing.. > Concentration is a conditioned thing.. > etc. etc. etc. > Therefore, Self is a conditioned thing.. > > Except Nibbana, what is not a conditioned thing ?? > > Pain is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > Hurt is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > A thought is non-existent because it is a > conditioned thing.. > Walking is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > Talking is non-existent because it is a conditioned > thing.. > etc. etc. etc. > Therefore, "Self" is non-existent.. > > "Self" lasts long as one instant thought, one > instant pain, one > instant hurt, etc. etc... > > Many thoughts, many pain, many hurt, combined into > many instances > of "Self".. > > Therefore, "Self" has all three Lakkhanas.. ie, by > seeing Lakkanas > directly and continuously, the concept of "Self" is > understood as non- > existent.. Without Lakkhanas, "Self" seems to be > existent and > permanent.. :-)) > > With metta, > > Theresa. > > > > 543 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 10:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The three meanings of dukkha > --------- >> > dear Theresa, > You wrote > (1) "Dukkha-Dukkha is directly linked to the physical > matter (our > body).." I think (but please check, I do this from memory) Dukkha-Dukkha can be classified under two headings. It is dukkha vedana. The first is indeed dependent on the body. It is a type of akusala vipaka, the result of unwholesome kamma, arising at the body door. It needs body object and body door to arise, both of which are rupa, physical phenomena but is itself nama, mental phenomena. The other type of Dukkha Dukkha arises with any type of dosa, aversion. We can be merely bored and the unpleasnt feeling arising simultaneously is also dukkha vedana but different from the first type. . You wrote: > (3) " sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and > ceasing of > dhammas > is the deepest meaning of dukkha. " This is > exactly what I have > tried to explain with my layman terms for weeks now, > but I didn't > know how to express my thoughts.. This type of > Dukkha is what I have > experienced off and on and known by practice.. This > is the first > Noble Truth; " With respect I again suggest that what you have experienced is not this direct level of understanding. I understand that it appears to you that your experiences in meditation are so dramatic and that change is seen much more than before you started to do this practice but this is still not experiencing dukkha-ariya-sacca. I think if you continue to learn and discuss more this will become apparent sooner or later. As Sarah said to you it takes great courage to give up the idea that we have attained special insight, to go back to kindergarten.. I respect very much that you keep writing and at the same time you consider what we are saying to you. I lot of Buddhists these days if they hear anyone doubting them will never speak or listen to this person again. It takes enormous honesty and other parami to swallow our pride and hopes and listen to others. It is very easy to find teachers and friends who will tell us "yes, you have attained, yes you are on the right path" Those who will tell us differently are very rare. I stayed with a friend of Khun Sujins in Thailand years ago. He has a property with many small huts scattered around it where anyone can come and stay and study and apply the Dhamma. I stayed there for 6weeks and he told me his story. He was a meditation teacher with many students. His own teacher was rather famous and my friend was one of his assistant teachers. One day he was staying at the temple of his teacher and heard the teacher listening to a radio program on Dhamma. When he asked who the speaker was the teacher became evasive and said not to bother. The next few days he noticed his teacher listening to the radio again at the same times and he was able to listen a little. When he got home he was able to find the program and so he started to listen to khun Sujin. After several months he was able to meet with Khun sujin and he realized his old way of practice was a little twisted. He went to his teacher and explained what he had learnt. They had several meetings. Basically his teachers position was that "yes, the way Achrn Sujin teaches is entirely correct but by doing the practice that we do the path is faster". I have heard this said by others also. Indeed the teacher admitted relying on Khun Sujins program for some of the theory he used in his teaching. In the end they parted ways. When my friend announced his decision to his large number of students there were few who could accept it. One of his old students who did told me that she couldn't understand what he was talking about at all but that she followed his new path merely out of devotion. She had thought that concentrating on the breath was the way to have insight. Now, more than a decade later her understanding of Dhamma is admired by many. However we don't need to think that we will become followers of Khun Sujin. Khun sujin once told me that there was only ever one teacher - the Buddha. We must rely on ourselves and, as Mike noted, everyones accumulations are different. No one can tell us exactly how to have true awareness but by relying on the Dhamma taught by the Buddha and transmitted so accurately by the long line of monks we will gradually build up the conditions for real insight. Robert 544 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 2:06pm Subject: Re: The three meanings of dukkha > About Sankhara-dukkha or Viparinama-dukkha, we need to see > the "arising" (the Rise) and the "falling away" (the Fall) of > < sankkhara.>> This is exactly what I mean, in my earlier posts, > about "Dukkha", "Impermanence" and "Anatta", and about the Rise and > the Fall of Sankharas (ie, what we see/experience from moment to > moment with Mindfulness.. I referred to my practical experience..) > > This post is my attempt to compare terms and point out that you and I > have been spoken about the exact same thing.. > > with metta, > > Theresa. Theresa, I would have to tell you again that sankhara-dukkha or viparinama-dukkha are not the same, but I see from what you wrote to Robert that you said you did not understand the first terminology. Since this is a very intricate matter that requires real understanding, I doubt we were speaking about the same thing. The Buddha taught about rupa, which is a much less complicated matter than the nama, in the days where there were no modern instruments to test his words, in a way that we are still witnessing, with the help of modern equipment, the verification of: solids liquids gasses and combustion, the seven stages of the a star's life through billions of years, other planetary systems, the infinite variety of life forms in the universe, the division of the first cells of a human being, our six senses. In fact Einstien once said if ever there was a religion that fits in with modern science, Buddhism is. However even now there are no methods or laboratories that can test his teachings about nama, which is much more complex, except for ourselves. Luckily what he taught about us can be proven by conscientious study of his teachings, it is not as if one can think it up, or that one sits and wait and all will become clear suddenly. All the Buddhas had to study millions of lifetimes and accumulate myriad parami to perfection before attaining this extremely rare knowledge, which, once people do not study and it is completely forgotten, will be gone for billions of billions of years before the next Buddha would come again. This is why each word is so precious and should be carefully and respectfully considered, never to be corrupted and used frivolously. Amara 545 From: Jim Gough Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Three Marks of Existence Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: "Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness why not start to see that everything including mindfulness depends on complex conditions, that mindfulness is very broken up and non-continuous indeed." --- Robert, doesn't this exhortation require continuous mindfulness? Jim 546 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 4:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Three Marks of Existence Dear Jim, Welcome to the discussion. Interesting counterpoint that you wrote. There are many different levels of understanding both in theory and experiently. I think we first need to see what the characteristics of sati is. It is rather easy to mistake samadhi for mindfulness. Someone may think they have sati when they don't. Robert > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > "Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness why > not start to see that everything > including mindfulness depends on complex conditions, > that mindfulness is very broken > up and non-continuous indeed." > --- > Robert, doesn't this exhortation require continuous > mindfulness? > Jim > > 547 From: Jim Gough Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 6:13am Subject: The characteristics of mindfulness (was dharma study group) Robert, What are the characteristics of mindfulness and how are they developed? Jim Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Jim, > Welcome to the discussion. > Interesting counterpoint that you wrote. There are > many different levels of understanding both in theory > and experiently. > I think we first need to see what the characteristics > of sati is. It is rather easy to mistake samadhi for > mindfulness. Someone may think they have sati when > they don't. > Robert > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > "Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness why > > not start to see that everything > > including mindfulness depends on complex conditions, > > that mindfulness is very broken > > up and non-continuous indeed." > > --- > > Robert, doesn't this exhortation require continuous > > mindfulness? > > Jim > > -- Dr James Gough Dept Pathology Foothills Medical Centre 1403 29th St NW Calgary Alberta T2N 2T9 Canada (403) 670 1326 (office). (403) 289 6899 (home). (403) 670 4748 (fax). (403) 213 1047 (pager/messages). 548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 5:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The characteristics of mindfulness (was dharma study group) Dear Jim, Thanks for the question. I had an exchange of letters about 4 years ago with a friend that I edited and put on the net. It gives an introduction to this area: http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html . It is not too long so perhaps you could read it and comment. Robert --- Jim Gough wrote: > > > Robert, > What are the characteristics of mindfulness and how > are they developed? > Jim > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Jim, > > Welcome to the discussion. > > Interesting counterpoint that you wrote. There are > > many different levels of understanding both in > theory > > and experiently. > > I think we first need to see what the > characteristics > > of sati is. It is rather easy to mistake samadhi > for > > mindfulness. Someone may think they have sati when > > they don't. > > Robert > > > > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > > > "Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness > why > > > not start to see that everything > > > including mindfulness depends on complex > conditions, > > > that mindfulness is very broken > > > up and non-continuous indeed." > > > --- > > > Robert, doesn't this exhortation require > continuous > > > mindfulness? > > > Jim > > > > > > 549 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 8:11am Subject: Fwd : Mindfulness ======================= From: Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 11:36am Subject: mindfulness The words of Sister Ayya Khema: Our old friend, dukkha, arises in the mind as dissatisfaction caused by all sorts of triggers. It can be triggered by bodily discomfort, but more often it is caused by the mind's own aberrations and convolutions. The mind creates dukkha, and that's why we must really watch and guard our minds..... The greatest support we can have is mindfulness, which means being totally present in each moment. If the mind remains centered then it can't make up stories about the injustice of the world or one's friends, or about one's desires, or one's lamentations. All these mind-made stories would fill many volumes, but when we are mindful such verbalizations stop. "Mindful" is being fully absorbed in the moment, leaving no room for anything else. We are filled with the momentary happening, whether that may be standing or sitting or lying down, being comfortable or uncomfortable, feeling pleasant or unpleasant. Whichever it may be, it is a non-judgmental awareness, "knowing only," without evaluation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/khema/allofus.html metta, sue 550 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 8:13am Subject: Fwd : words and practice ================================ From: Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 11:27am Subject: words and practice The words of Sister Ayya Khema: There is this difference between one who knows and one who practices. The one who knows may understand the words and concepts but the one who practices knows only one thing, namely, to become that truth. Words are an utilitarian means not only for communication, but also to solidify ideas. That's why words can never reveal the truth, only personal experience can..... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/khema/herenow.html metta, sue 551 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 8:22am Subject: fwd : locate quote ======================= From: atta dubson Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 12:58pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Locate quote On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, sotujana wrote: > Hi all -- I recently heard the following but cannot locate it in the > Dhammapada -- where I am told it is from -- at least, not in the > translations have on hand. Can anyone offer a specific citation? > thanks -- Robert > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom without meditation. > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close to peace and > emancipation." verse 372. i have three other versions: There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. 372 There is no meditation without wisdom, and there is no wisdom without meditation. When a man has both meditation and wisdom, he is indeed close to nirvana. 372 There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. 372 -atta ======================== From: Lee Dillion Date: Tue Jun 20, 2000 1:01pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Locate quote . . . It is one version of the Dhammapada XXV - 372. The Access to Insight has an alternative translation as follows: There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. -- Lee Dillion 552 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 0:37pm Subject: Re: The Three Marks of Existence Hello Robert, > In the Kitagiri sutta; sutta 70 of the Majjihima > nikaya the Buddha said > "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound > knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? > As to this bhikkhus, one who has faith draws close; > . . . > with chanda born he makes an effort; having made the > effort, he weighs it up; > . . . > having weighed it up, he strives; > . . . > being self-resolute, he realises with his > person the highest truth itself and, penetrating it by > means of wisdom, he sees. ..." Have we strived (ie, practiced ) ?? If we have strived (practiced), is it possible for us to have wisdom ?? is it possible for us to realize the highest truth itself ?? is it possible for us to penetrate it by means of wisdom ?? > Thinking you can have continual mindfulness is an > illusion, a delusion that exists through a belief in > self. Instead of trying to have continual mindfulness > why not start to see that everything including > mindfulness depends on complex conditions, that > mindfulness is very broken up and non-continuous > indeed. Everything is an illusion, and yes, Mindfulness is an illusion, too.. Therefore, continuous Mindfulness is also an illusion.. Complex conditions ?? the make-up of the entire world.. I can't see the entire world at the same time, but what my eyes can see in each moment is a representation of the entire world ( a sample ).. What my eyes see is only an illusion (a copy, a perception) of the world.. I can never see the entire world or the "reality" of the world.. I can only see a part of the world, one part at a time.. I can only see one an "illusion" (my perception) of the world but I can never hold the "reality" of the world.. Should I close my eyes because the limitation of my seeing ?? .. Mindfulness is like our ability to see.. Mindfulness can only see so much at a time.. Mindfulness can only see an "illusion" (?!).. <> So, what is continuous ?? What is permanent ?? Considering the seven factors of enlightenment... Each factor is an illusion.. Mindfulness is one of the factor.. Each factor is impermanent.. Each factor is subjective.. Yet, when all factors are present and in balance of each other, that is the "cause" for enlightenment.. Continuous Mindfulness ?? As continuous as possible.. As mindful as possible.. If we don't believe that we can continuously see or continuously be mindful, we have good reason to end practicing Buddha's Dhamma.. > You are mixing concept, (samutti) with paramattha > dhammas (absolute realities.) The thinking process is > composed of paramattha dhammas, pain is aparamattha > dhamma, vedana, consciousness, > mindfulnes,concentration and all sankharas are > paramattha dhammas but self is merely concept, an > idea. We need a good teacher to explain the very meaning of the word "concepts" IN PRACTICE.. Pain is dhamma, if Mindfulness and Insight are present.. Vedana is dhamma, if Mindfulness and Insight are present.. > It is another extreme to say that paramattha dhammas > such as pain do not exist. The Buddha takes the middle > path between existence and non-existence by teaching > the conditioned nature of phenomena. Walking is > concept - it comes about because of the idea of a > whole. The realities are only citta, cetasika and rupa. Does the word "middle" of the Middle Path ( the Noble Path ) refer to something falling between existence and non-existence ?? Or does it refer to something else ?? We need a good teacher to explain it for PRACTICAL PURPOSE.. Existence, namely permanent existence, is when there is no change.. Pain changes and is impermanent, therefore, pain is an "illusion", thus, "non-existent".. When we practice Buddha's Dhamma so that it shows and proves how Pain is formed, then we will understand why Pain is an "illusion", a self-created concept.. Without practice of Buddha's Dhamma, Pain is pain, Dukkha.. Prince Siddharta with Dukkha, and then, Lord Buddha with Nibbana; both resided in one living person.. So, where is Dhamma ? So where is Dukkha ? So where is Nibbana ?.. Dukkha is impermanent and conditional.. Nibbana is permanent and unconditional.. Nibbana resides where Dukkha does.. Have we identified or realized or experienced these three : Citta, Cetasika and Rupa yet ?? and their interactions ?? and their independence or interdependence ?? We must be the witness (by practice) of them existing in us.. Otherwise, Buddha's Dhamma does not get a chance to soak deeply in us.. With metta, Theresa. 553 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 0:51pm Subject: Re: Fwd : Mindfulness "Mindful" > is being fully absorbed in the moment, leaving no room for anything > else. We are filled with the momentary happening, whether that may be > standing or sitting or lying down, being comfortable or > uncomfortable, feeling pleasant or unpleasant. Whichever it may be, > it is a non-judgmental awareness, "knowing only," without evaluation. Theresa, The study of 'the momentary happening, whether that may be standing or sitting or lying down' is still not mindfulness of the paramatthadhamma, which is the study of the six senses and their objects: seeing and sight, hearing and sound, smelling and smells, tasting and tastes, body-sense contact and temperature, softness or hardness, tension or motion that is appearing to a specific citta at a specific instant; in no matter which posture, not only the four most common ones but bending down, climbing a cliff or whatever. However, at the moment of recognition of a bodily position or of feeling pleasant or unpleasant it is already the mind at work, thinking, which is a different reality arising through the mind door. The citta is so fast that between times of sati and the thought of standing or sitting, there were already many bhavanga citta as well as other types of citta in between. Amara 554 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 0:56pm Subject: Re: Fwd : words and practice > The one who knows may understand the words and concepts but the one > who practices knows only one thing, namely, to become that truth. Theresa, There can be no 'becoming' anything, one either is or isn't. I repeat that even the Buddha cannot change the nature of things, only know it and eradicate it. Amara 555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 2:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Three Marks of Existence Dear Theresa, You asked "Have we strived (ie, practiced ) ?? If we have strived (practiced), is it possible for us to have wisdom ?? is it possible for us to realize the highest truth itself ?? is it possible for us to penetrate it by means of wisdom ??" Certainly it is possible to have wisdom if there has been enough wise attention to the Dhamma and correct application of the teachings. If there is not this basis we will merely be developing attachment to whatever idea we have of what practice is. “Realize the highest truth”: that is too far for me now. That is just speculation, wanting, tanha. My concerns are more with this moment. Now you are reading this reply. But “you” is a concept. Sati of Satipatthana cannot be aware of a concept. But there are paramattha dhammas arising: seeing, color, eyebase, hardness, body base, feeling, the thinking process, desire or aversion and many others. Was there any understanding of them in the last few seconds? If not too late, they have gone completely never to arise again. But now there are new ones arising. They oppress us again and again. Everyone experiences paramattha dhammas continually but until understanding develops sufficiently they are taken as lasting, as controllable, as pleasurable. "Everything is an illusion, and yes, Mindfulness is an illusion, too.. Therefore, continuous Mindfulness is also an illusion.." What do you mean “Mindfulness is an illusion”? What do you mean by "Everything" in this sentence. You wrote "We need a good teacher to explain the very meaning of the word "concepts" IN PRACTICE.." Did you read the book I sent you “Realities and Concepts” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket? This is rather short but gives us a good introduction to this topic. Understanding the theory will help us to see these things in daily life. By the way if anyone else reading this wants a copy please let me know and I will post it. Robert 556 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 5:29pm Subject: Re: fwd : locate quote > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, sotujana wrote: > > > Hi all -- I recently heard the following but cannot locate it in the > > Dhammapada -- where I am told it is from -- at least, not in the > > translations have on hand. Can anyone offer a specific citation? > > thanks -- Robert > > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom without meditation. > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close to peace and > > emancipation." Robert, Was it you who made this posting or a namesake? Since this passage is mentioned, could you please explain it to us? What was it in the original Pali and how does it apply to satipatthana? Amara 557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 5:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : locate quote Dear Amara, You refer to a posting that Theresa sent: ”On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, sotujana wrote: > Hi all -- I recently heard the following but cannot locate it in the > Dhammapada -- where I am told it is from -- at least, not in the > translations have on hand. Can anyone offer a specific citation? > thanks -- Robert > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom without meditation. > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close to peace and > emancipation." … other versions: There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. 372” The Robert who asked this question is another person, not me. Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has several verses where meditation is mentioned. All these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful to consult with the ancient commentary. I use the translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987, Oxford university press). Another verse in the Dhammapada #23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever firm of enterprise, those steadfast ones touch Nibbana, Incomparable release from bonds” Those meditators is the English translation of te jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the wise who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation concerned with objects constituted by the eight attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with the characteristics of existence constituted by the Paths and the fruits of insight.” The first one refers to samattha meditation using one of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina. And the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the three characteristics. Robert. --- amara chay wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, sotujana wrote: > > > > > Hi all -- I recently heard the following but > cannot locate it in > the > > > Dhammapada -- where I am told it is from -- at > least, not in the > > > translations have on hand. Can anyone offer a > specific citation? > > > thanks -- Robert > > > > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom > without > meditation. > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close > to peace and > > > emancipation." > > > Robert, > > Was it you who made this posting or a namesake? > > Since this passage is mentioned, could you please > explain it to us? > What was it in the original Pali and how does it > apply to > satipatthana? > > Amara > > 558 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jun 21, 2000 9:09pm Subject: anatta and no control Dear group, Someone said to me recently that we should not say that there was no-self or no control as this would lead to despair; we would conclude we could do nothing. Another wrote that by striving with right effort we could have continuos right mindfulness. I suggested that this idea of being able to keep mindfulness comes about because of belief in a self who can control. This friend replied that if we thought that we could not have constant mindfulness that we would lose all interest in Buddhist practice. I think this matter is very difficult indeed. Developing insight into the characteristic of anatta is in essence what Buddhism is about. It is so important that we should feel ‘as if our head is on fire”, we should strive to understand it. Why is it so difficult to comprehend? It is explained that the tilakkha –the three characteristics- anicca, dukkha, and anatta are the nature of all paramattha dhammas, past, present and future. And paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) include all the common things that we experience every day such as pain, pleasant feeling, seeing, hearing tasting touching, sound. You would think that as it is is such a fundamental essence of nature that it should be apparent- all we have to do is observe. However, it is far more difficult than that. Delusion clouds our vision. Trying to observe this process can easily be done with wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration and so lead nowhere. It is difficult because of accumulations. We have had countless trillions of aeons during which we have listened to all sorts of teachers tell us all sorts of things. Although we have, according to the scrptures in countless numbers of lives developed high levels of jhana, and have lived for billions of aeons as Brahma gods. But these very pure states do not uproot the idea of self. If they are grasped wrongly they can even enforce the idea of atta. According to the Buddhist scriptures it is only rarely that a Buddha comes into the world and can explain in detail about no-self. Thus rarely have we listened to Buddhas and even when we did we may have misunderstood. There are pacceka-buddhas who arise at other times who can understand this for themselves but they cannot teach the details of it to others. It is deep. What can be done? I quoted the Kitagiri sutta recently: "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? .... he hears Dhamma; having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there being approval of the things, chanda is born; with chanda born he makes an effort; having made the effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up..." Perhaps we think of this gradual training as a straight line? I think it is more accurate to think of it like a spiral. We hear, we test, we apply, we approve of the meaning.. we make an effort and then we listen again, test again, we apply again, we approve…and then back again for more listening, more testing, more application, again and again and again. Where is the practice and where is the theory? I don’t think we can draw a line between the two. They are closely connected, they build on each other. As understanding grows there is less belief that any dhammas can be controlled. Does this mean there is despair and lack of interest in Buddhism? I don’t think so. I think we find that there are less worries about the problems in life let alone despair. We despair because we believe in a self. I find that as long as “I” am not in the way that the “practice” (if we call it a practice) goes smoothly. It is up and down and all around but to me that is going smoothly. It doesn’t go fast but that is just the way it goes. What are we in essence? I like the simile of a bonfire. A large fire is burning. All day long someone keeps adding more fuel to the fire. The fire never stops; generation after generation some one keeps tending it. Sometimes the person feeding the fire works very hard to control the fire, it looks tidy and attractive. At other times it rages out of control. But always they keep adding more fuel. In this simile we ourselves are the fire. The three papanca, tanha(desire), ditthi(view) and mana(conceit) are the fuel. The lives when it is under control are when we develop high levels of kusala such as jhana. The times when it is dangerous and raging are the lives we neglect kusala. When we hear and consider and apply the deep teachings about anatta, about the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus, the paticusamupada, the 24 paccaya and so on we start to slowly turn away from feeding this unceasing toil of adding fuel to the fire. If we continue to develop understanding one day the process of adding fuel will stop. Soon after that the fire will burn out forever. Robert 559 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:30pm Subject: Re: anatta and no control > Someone said to me recently that we should not say > that there was no-self or no control as this would > lead to despair; we would conclude we could do > nothing. Another wrote that by striving with right > effort we could have continuos right mindfulness. I > suggested that this idea of being able to keep > mindfulness comes about because of belief in a self > who can control. This friend replied that if we > thought that we could not have constant mindfulness > that we would lose all interest in Buddhist practice. Dear friends in the Dhamma, When I was young there was a popular phrase, the incurable optimist, and I am afraid I am one, even after years of sobering studies of Buddhism. I am especially full of mana that I have begun to catch glimpses of the truth about myself, whereas for an eternity I had lived in ignorance. Whether I knew it or not, there is no self, there never have been any in the incalculably long time I have lived, with or without Buddhas, with or without Dhamma. I just didn't know it. Frightening as reality might be, I still prefer to know about it rather than ignore it and suffer the endless rounds of rebirths, from which there is no escape, no matter the hardest practices and the purest jhana. Then the teachings of the Buddha made me comprehend how this all came about, and especially how to get out of it, something no one else taught, something so logical as to be easy and so intricate as to be extremely demanding. The intellectual knowledge must be precise and withstand tests in the present moment, but once applied, can be so full of 'fringe benefits' it tempts one to develop lobha and cling to every tiny acheivement. Yet the path is so long, and we do have fire burning on our heads because the moment we are born, we are on our way towards death; each minute occasion to have sati should not be disregarded. I cannot help but wonder at being able to find the way out at all, that even an eternity of ignorance and akusala, (though also with kusala, otherwise one would not be able to find the dhamma at all;) that with the Dhamma that the Buddha had left us we could still find the cure to all the ignorance and the infinitely greater danger of wandering through samsara, to heaven and hell and back, over and over and to die again and again willingly or not, clinging to the infinitely demanding senses, believing in a non existant self. As long as one does not see the danger of samsara, whether there is a self or not, it is impossible to leave it. Seeing non self just makes it that much easier to live in this world for me, as well as see the possibility of more wisdom, and less suffering that result from all the attachments. The Buddha exhorts us to be brave and cheerful in the Dhamma, and to me the world without Dhamma is by far much more frightening, full of necessities demanded by the self. I think I would be much less brave if I didn't have the notion of selflessness, or of what real Panna is! My main point is that, to compare the discouraging aspects of 'selflessness' to the infinite danger of samsara, I would welcome the former any time! Amara > I think this matter is very difficult indeed. > Developing insight into the characteristic of anatta > is in essence what Buddhism is about. It is so > important that we should feel `as if our head is on > fire", we should strive to understand it. > > Why is it so difficult to comprehend? It is explained > that the tilakkha –the three characteristics- anicca, > dukkha, and anatta are the nature of all paramattha > dhammas, past, present and future. And paramattha > dhammas (absolute realities) include all the common > things that we experience every day such as pain, > pleasant feeling, seeing, hearing tasting touching, > sound. You would think that as it is is such a > fundamental essence of nature that it should be > apparent- all we have to do is observe. However, it is > far more difficult than that. Delusion clouds our > vision. Trying to observe this process can easily be > done with wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong > concentration and so lead nowhere. > > It is difficult because of accumulations. We have had > countless trillions of aeons during which we have > listened to all sorts of teachers tell us all sorts of > things. Although we have, according to the scrptures > in countless numbers of lives developed high levels of > jhana, and have lived for billions of aeons as Brahma > gods. But these very pure states do not uproot the > idea of self. If they are grasped wrongly they can > even enforce the idea of atta. > According to the Buddhist scriptures it is only rarely > that a Buddha comes into the world and can explain in > detail about no-self. Thus rarely have we listened to > Buddhas and even when we did we may have > misunderstood. There are pacceka-buddhas who arise at > other times who can understand this for themselves but > they cannot teach the details of it to others. It is > deep. > > What can be done? > I quoted the Kitagiri sutta recently: > "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound > knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? > .... he hears Dhamma; > having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the > meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while > testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there > being approval of the things, chanda is born; with > chanda born he makes an effort; having made the > effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up..." > > Perhaps we think of this gradual training as a > straight line? I think it is more accurate to think of > it like a spiral. We hear, we test, we apply, we > approve of the meaning.. we make an effort and then we > listen again, test again, we apply again, we > approve…and then back again for more listening, more > testing, more application, again and again and again. > Where is the practice and where is the theory? I don't > think we can draw a line between the two. They are > closely connected, they build on each other. > > As understanding grows there is less belief that any > dhammas can be controlled. Does this mean there is > despair and lack of interest in Buddhism? I don't > think so. I think we find that there are less worries > about the problems in life let alone despair. We > despair because we believe in a self. I find that as > long as "I" am not in the way that the "practice" (if > we call it a practice) goes smoothly. It is up and > down and all around but to me that is going smoothly. > It doesn't go fast but that is just the way it goes. > > What are we in essence? I like the simile of a > bonfire. A large fire is burning. All day long someone > keeps adding more fuel to the fire. The fire never > stops; generation after generation some one keeps > tending it. Sometimes the person feeding the fire > works very hard to control the fire, it looks tidy and > attractive. At other times it rages out of control. > But always they keep adding more fuel. > > In this simile we ourselves are the fire. The three > papanca, tanha(desire), ditthi(view) and mana(conceit) > are the fuel. The lives when it is under control are > when we develop high levels of kusala such as jhana. > The times when it is dangerous and raging are the > lives we neglect kusala. When we hear and consider and > apply the deep teachings about anatta, about the > khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus, the paticusamupada, > the 24 paccaya and so on we start to slowly turn away > from feeding this unceasing toil of adding fuel to > the fire. If we continue to develop understanding one > day the process of adding fuel will stop. Soon after > that the fire will burn out forever. > Robert > 560 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 24, 2000 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] beneficial places(was anatta and no control Amara wrote “The intellectual knowledge must be precise and withstand tests in the present moment, but once applied, can be so full of 'fringe benefits' it tempts one to develop lobha and cling to every tiny acheivement.” Very true Amara. Understanding of the Dhamma even at the intellectual level brings so many benefits that it is easy to rest on our laurels. If there is enough understanding of anatta one knows that no matter what problems come in life one will always be able to reflect about kamma and the different conditions and so be able to cope. The danger of this is obvious: we have only a few short years to continue hearing, refecting and applying the teachings. The goal is not to have enough understanding to live a happy life (this is merely a fringe benefit); there is so much more to do. As Amara writes “the path is so long, and we do have fire burning on our heads because the moment we are born, we are on our way towards death; each minute occasion to have sati should not be disregarded.” There was an interesting section on the tapes that Sarah and jonathan made in Bangkok recently. Jonathan and Ivan mentioned the beneficial places such as going to India on Dhamma trips or meeting with Khun Sujin in Bangkok. And that these are of great benefit as one hears the Dhamma and it seems to condition more awareness. Khun sujin agreed that they are beneficial but asked about the attitude. If one just wants more of this it can be done with lobha. Jonathan commented that hearing tapes is one thing but hearing it in person is another. Yet this idea too can hinder if we cling to such situations. I often look forward to flying as I find that the little extra tension when one is taking off conditions reflection and awareness of realities. I like challenges and problems in life because these give a chance to test awareness. But this shows a subtle clinging to awareness and especially it often means that I neglect the other opportunities in life that are happening every moment. Khun Sujin gave an example that at night just before going to sleep for busy people is a good time to reflect on Dhamma. But if one clings to this one is likely to ignore the much more numerous moments in life when one is distracted, busy, worried, having desire, seeing, hearing etc. Time is too short to do that. Robert 561 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 0:36am Subject: The Aramana of bhavanga citta Dear friends in the dhamma, One of the things we discussed on Saturday was about why we could not remember the aramana of the bhavanga citta that arise all the time, especially while we are sound asleep, dreamlessly, since sanna is one of satarana cetasikas that arise with all citta. Logically it should be able to recall something that occurs so often each day, but apparently it recalls that aramana uniquely when it is another bhavanga arising, and the nature of the bhavanga citta is that its aramana is never of this lifetime and never appears through the six doorways, not even the manodvara. Therefore when it is the bhavanga citta doing its function, the aramana is always that of the very last citta of the previous lifetime before the cuti citta, with no bearing on the sanna that memorizes the aramana of the six dvara of this lifetime and all the connotations the mind makes in relation to them. It also follows that if one dies with sati arising with the last citta before the cuti citta, one might, even unconciously, have sati of whatever level, during instants of bhavanga. But this would not contribute to the panna that arises from the study of the immediate aramana appearing through the dvara of this lifetime, I don't think, this last notion is just my speculation, we didn't get this far. (Actually the main topic was the different aspects of hetu in relation to diverse citta.) Robert and anyone interested in the subject, would you care to comment or clarify this for us? Amara 562 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 8:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Aramana of bhavanga citta Dear Amara, I followed all you said except about sati with the bhavanga citta. I have not heard that before. I think the bhavanga cittas can arise with either pleasant or neutral feeling in the human realm. But we have no way of knowing which type our bhavangas are. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > One of the things we discussed on Saturday was about > why we could not > remember the aramana of the bhavanga citta that > arise all the time, > especially while we are sound asleep, dreamlessly, > since sanna is one > of satarana cetasikas that arise with all citta. > Logically it should > be able to recall something that occurs so often > each day, but > apparently it recalls that aramana uniquely when it > is another > bhavanga arising, and the nature of the bhavanga > citta is that its > aramana is never of this lifetime and never appears > through the six > doorways, not even the manodvara. Therefore when it > is the bhavanga > citta doing its function, the aramana is always that > of the very last > citta of the previous lifetime before the cuti > citta, with no bearing > on the sanna that memorizes the aramana of the six > dvara of this > lifetime and all the connotations the mind makes in > relation to them. > > It also follows that if one dies with sati arising > with the last > citta before the cuti citta, one might, even > unconciously, have sati > of whatever level, during instants of bhavanga. But > this would not > contribute to the panna that arises from the study > of the immediate > aramana appearing through the dvara of this > lifetime, I don't think, > this last notion is just my speculation, we didn't > get this far. > (Actually the main topic was the different aspects > of hetu in > relation to diverse citta.) > > Robert and anyone interested in the subject, would > you care to > comment or clarify this for us? > > Amara > > 563 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 3:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Aramana of bhavanga citta dear Amara, as Bhavanga cittas are vipaka - either kusala or akusala of varying types-I don't think they have sati associated with them. I think sati arises only with javanna cittas. But please check. I have been negecting Abhidhamma studies for quite a while. Robert > Dear Amara, > I followed all you said except about sati with the > bhavanga citta. I have not heard that before. I > think > the bhavanga cittas can arise with either pleasant > or > neutral feeling in the human realm. But we have no > way > of knowing which type our bhavangas are. > Robert > --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > > > One of the things we discussed on Saturday was > about > > why we could not > > remember the aramana of the bhavanga citta that > > arise all the time, > > especially while we are sound asleep, dreamlessly, > > since sanna is one > > of satarana cetasikas that arise with all citta. > > Logically it should > > be able to recall something that occurs so often > > each day, but > > apparently it recalls that aramana uniquely when > it > > is another > > bhavanga arising, and the nature of the bhavanga > > citta is that its > > aramana is never of this lifetime and never > appears > > through the six > > doorways, not even the manodvara. Therefore when > it > > is the bhavanga > > citta doing its function, the aramana is always > that > > of the very last > > citta of the previous lifetime before the cuti > > citta, with no bearing > > on the sanna that memorizes the aramana of the six > > dvara of this > > lifetime and all the connotations the mind makes > in > > relation to them. > > > > It also follows that if one dies with sati arising > > with the last > > citta before the cuti citta, one might, even > > unconciously, have sati > > of whatever level, during instants of bhavanga. > But > > this would not > > contribute to the panna that arises from the study > > of the immediate > > aramana appearing through the dvara of this > > lifetime, I don't think, > > this last notion is just my speculation, we didn't > > get this far. > > (Actually the main topic was the different aspects > > of hetu in > > relation to diverse citta.) > > > > Robert and anyone interested in the subject, would > > you care to > > comment or clarify this for us? > > > > Amara > > > > 564 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 6:23pm Subject: Re: The Aramana of bhavanga citta > as Bhavanga cittas are vipaka - either kusala or > akusala of varying types-I don't think they have sati > associated with them. I think sati arises only with > javanna cittas. But please check. I have been > negecting Abhidhamma studies for quite a while. > Robert > > Dear Amara, > > I followed all you said except about sati with the > > bhavanga citta. I have not heard that before. I > > think > > the bhavanga cittas can arise with either pleasant > > or > > neutral feeling in the human realm. But we have no > > way > > of knowing which type our bhavangas are. > > Robert Robert, I am happy to tell you that I had the opportunity this morning to ask Khun Sujin about this and she explained that all humans are born with kusala patisandhi citta, even though it might be of a very weak kind, accompanied by only one of the kusala hetu, which causes birth as a cripple or otherwise deformed mentally of physically. Some are born with the patisandhi that is very strong kusala citta accompanied by all three kusala hetu, as though there is a 'seed' for panna to grow if developed conscientiously. Since all kusala citta (ones free from lobha, dosa or moha) must be accompanied by sati of one level or another (most of the time imperceptible, unfortunately) those born with kusala patisandhi citta would have sati arising with the bhavanga, since the bhavanga are conditioned by the same kamma that produced the patisandhi citta as well as know the same aramana as the patisandhi. But because the aramana of both kinds of citta is the aramana of the last citta of the preceeding life and never appears through the six dvaras of the present one, not even through the mind door, one never knows its aramana, and since the patisandhi is, as you say, vipaka, and cannot further accumulate anything, it can only pass on what is already accumulated in the preceeding citta. To develop sati therefore depends on the processes of the six dvara, namely the javana, as you know. This is why the ariya puggala who has not yet attained arahantship is never reborn as the asannasata brahma who have only rupa and no nama, while even the arupa brahma who knows the dhamma and how to develop panna could also attain arahantship even without eyes and ears to hear or learn about satipatthana. Interesting point: there is no mention in the Tripitaka of an ariya puggala ever being reborn in the human world either, always the higher planes, so no human can be born an ariya puggala from birth. There, I hope I got everything right, please point out any mistakes because it's quite a bit to wrap your mind around, isn't it? By the way, I have good news for those who worry about Khun Sujin's disregard for medical check ups of which she hasn't had any for over thirty years, this morning Dr. Yoopadi who is visiting Thailand from Fresno has succeeded where so many have failed, in setting up an ultrasound session for her, with the docter herself also attending, with excellent results, even with Tan Acharn's age of seventy four years! Dr. Yoopadi is returning to the States tomorrow a very happy lady, as are all dhamma students here. Amara 565 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 26, 2000 7:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Aramana of bhavanga citta Thank you very much Amara. It is very helpful to hear these details. Actually I would like to hear more. Very interesting that there can't be a sotapanna from birth - I had noticed that there are no examples in the Tipitika also. I think there is not an absolute rule about this as the commentaries mention the case that IF there was a sotapanna from birth he could never even kill an ant even if there was an executioner holding a sword over his head telling him to do so. But this is a hypothetical example given to demonstrate that under no circumstances can a sotapanna deviate from basic sila. If it ever does happen (birth as a human)it is an extremely unusual case - almost always (and perhaps always) they go to the deva realm (or Brahma). Perhaps we will meet some next life and discuss Dhamma ? --- amara chay wrote: > > as Bhavanga cittas are vipaka - either kusala or > > akusala of varying types-I don't think they have > sati > > associated with them. I think sati arises only > with > > javanna cittas. But please check. I have been > > negecting Abhidhamma studies for quite a while. > > Robert > > > Dear Amara, > > > I followed all you said except about sati with > the > > > bhavanga citta. I have not heard that before. I > > > think > > > the bhavanga cittas can arise with either > pleasant > > > or > > > neutral feeling in the human realm. But we have > no > > > way > > > of knowing which type our bhavangas are. > > > Robert > > 573 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jun 28, 2000 3:14am Subject: Sorry! Dear All, I'm so sorry I must have cluttered up your mailboxes like I did my own yesterday, I still don't know what happened but will try not to let it happen again! Amara 574 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jun 27, 2000 2:56pm Subject: Re: The Aramana of bhavanga citta Perhaps >we will meet some next life and discuss Dhamma ? Robert, We can always hope! But perhaps we have already met one this life, don't you think? The only way to be sure is of course to become one ourselves, so shall we give it our best shot? What is certain to help are all our discussions and studies here and any reminders to develop sati, Amara 576 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 29, 2000 4:39am Subject: schedule Dear friends in the dhamma, We've just uploaded the schedule of dhamma studies both in Bangkok and in the States in a new section in the English Index called DSSF Schedule, , for those interested. The Web Team P.S. I hope this gets through all right, my last posting was the apology but a previous posting come up after that one, so it's a bit confusing! Amara 577 From: Kashi Yum Date: Fri Jun 30, 2000 9:59pm Subject: A few Questions Hello, I joined this message board about two months ago at the invitation of Robert. I have mostly been away from message boards reading suttas and other books, plus tending to householder activities :-) so I have not been able to participate in the discussions. I would like to take this moment to thank Robert for posting my initial question a couple of months ago. I apologize for not thanking you sooner for your time and kindness. I am a beginner, "fresh off the turnip truck" as the saying goes. A group that meets online that I belong to is wrapping up discussions on the last sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (sources are pulled from Access to Insight website / www.accesstoinsight.org) and this has been my main exposure to Dhamma talks on a weekly basis for the last year and a half since it began. I am now reading the posts in this board (it may take me a while to catch up) and find it very helpful. It is very helpful also that participants use Pali words here and there, I think this is important and provides a "link" to the teachings. I would like to pose a few questions: 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"? 2) If there are differences, is reflection consumated to reveal another level of insight? 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and always..." is what someone recently said to me. My understanding is that delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though, yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or "kindling" there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to mean "always") people born "deluded?" Thank you in advance. w/Metta, Kashi 578 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 30, 2000 3:02pm Subject: revised schedule Dear friends in the dhamma, Khun Sujin has added more discussions: every Sunday afternoon at the DSSFB, instead of once a month. As to the English discussions, they will be at 14.00 every Saturday, plus any other day by appointment, except for the first Sat. of each month, which will be the all day Thai sessions at Khunying Noparatana's. Please check schedules for further changes: Betty, See you at eight tomorrow? Amara 579 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 1, 2000 4:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A few Questions Dear Kashi, Great to have your questions and comments. My computer is getting fixed so I am just looking in on another one at work and only have a few minutes to use it. So, very briefly, --- "> It is very helpful also that participants use Pali > words here and > there, I think this is important and provides a > "link" to the > teachings." Glad you appreciate the pali. The meaning is always more important than the technical terms but using the Pali, once we get used to it helps the precision of meaning. The English translations often have different connoatations for different people. > > I would like to pose a few questions: > > 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" > and "reflection"? > > 2) If there are differences, is reflection > consumated to reveal > another level of insight? There are many, many levels of understanding both at the theoretical and experiential level. The theory assists undertsanding at the practical level and also the practical makes the the theory much clearer. > > 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness > arises...period and always..." > is what someone recently said to me. My > understanding is that > delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; > though, > yes...without first having (contact -->) > consciousness or "kindling" > there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to > mean "always") > people born "deluded?" The asava(latent unwholesome tendencies) are present in all of us until they are finally eliminated by the different path consciousness. But when there is kusal citta at that moment the defilements are not apparent. The path is a gradual one whereby first wrong view is gradualy attenuated. > > Keep asking more questions and I am sure others have comments also. Best wishes Robert 580 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jul 1, 2000 8:34pm Subject: Re: A few Questions > I would like to pose a few questions: > > 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"? Kashi, I don't know if this is logical to you, but to me reflection is when I am reminded to study what concerns my own six dvara (sense doors) and their aramana (objects), as opposed to studying abstract thoughts and the world of pannati (or conventional terms). Contemplation seems to require more time and reasoning, which of course helps with understanding the teachings, but not so much the study of the present object appearing, whether nama and rupa, in other words the application of the theories thought out and understood. But this is just my distinction, other people might not agree with this terminology. Even Reflection might seem lengthy to some people, so that perhaps experiencing the reality of the instant to study its true characteristics might be more precise. Whatever terms help you distinguish between thoughts and reasonings and understanding on the intellectual level from sati itself, in other words, thoughts from sati, you have the beginning of the accumulation of panna. For example, we learn that hearing is just a nama, what is heard is just sound. When we hear now do we clearly experience the hearing which is so different from the seeing? That sound is completely different from sight? Yet we see and hear all day long, thnking it is we who hear and see, whereas we cannot control one or the other. Nor can we make them last, they appear and disappear according to conditions. > 2) If there are differences, is reflection consumated to reveal > another level of insight? With panna, the study of realities as they truly are can lead you to all levels of knowledge, respectively. > 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and always..." > is what someone recently said to me. My understanding is that > delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though, > yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or "kindling" > there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to mean "always") > people born "deluded?" To a certain degree, because if panna were strong enough, all ties to the next life would be severed and one would not be reborn ever again. The fact that we are born at all shows that we still have clinging to life, to seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling body sense contact and even pleasant thoughts. Most people have heard that Nibbana is a wonderous thing and want it but few realize that complete extinction is not like being born in the heavenly planes with all the pleasurable objects and none of the sufferings, but something above and beyond that: absolute non-existence, never to see anyone you love again, no more beautiful music, delicious delicacies, absolutely nothing but perfect peace, nothing to be attached to any more: no more delusions in the least. It is really not for everyone, only those who seek the truth and knowledge above all things, all pleasures of life. Amara 581 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jul 1, 2000 9:07pm Subject: Re: revised schedule Dear friends in the dhamma, We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation building. Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it? Amara 582 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Jul 1, 2000 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: revised schedule Hi, Amara, What a wonderful session it was today. Many many thanks for bringing me over there. By the way: didn't Achaan say that the Wed. sessions would have to be every other week, on the alternate weeks that Achaan is in town? Or did you speak to her later and it is now to be held every Wed. at 3? That would be great for us. If that is actually the schedule then, I shall see you at the center on Wed. at 3. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 8:07 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: revised schedule > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English > discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation > building. Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it? > > Amara 583 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jul 2, 2000 4:17am Subject: Re: revised schedule By the way: didn't Achaan say that the Wed. sessions would have to be > every other week, on the alternate weeks that Achaan is in town? Or did you > speak to her later and it is now to be held every Wed. at 3? Dear Betty, I did say every other Wed., (see below) but thank you for the precision that it will start the week after, so that we begin Wed. July 12th, unless I misunderstand? Amara > > We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English > > discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation > > building. Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it? 584 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jul 2, 2000 10:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A few Questions --- Dear Kashi: > > > > 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" > > and "reflection"? > > > > 2) If there are differences, is reflection > > consumated to reveal > > another level of insight? > I wrote: > There are many, many levels of understanding both at > the theoretical and experiential level. The theory > assists undertsanding at the practical level and > also > the practical makes the the theory much clearer. Even when we are thinking there can be moments of direct understanding of the characteristics of different realities. Also when we are studying a Dhamma book there can be many moments when there is direct study of realities. This is an important question because we have to learn how to study realities directly otherwise our Dhamma study is merely theoretical. sOEMTIMES I read books by people who have studied Abhidhamma a great deal but I am disapointed to see that they cannot relate it directly to what is hapening at this moment . They think of it as some sort of technical subject to learn and think about rather than as a very exact description of life that should be tested and seen for oneself. Some people can say things like "there is no self" but still have no understanding. Thus even when we are reflecting or contemplating or whatever we call it we need to develop the ability to see below the surface and see the realities that are conditioning the thinking. It can be done and discussions like these help to encourage. While you are reading this what dhammas , realities are present? There are colors contacting the eyebase, which condition seeing, cakkhu vinnana. These are three different dhammas that we have to gradually separate and insight. There is the thinking process which is composed of many different realities. And what is the thinking process rooted inright now? Is it all clear? In that case it is rooted in amoha, panna, wisdom. Or is there doubt and confusion? In that case it is rooted in moha, ignorance. Do you like to think about all this? In that case it could be rooted in either lobha, unwholesome desire or panna as both can come with pleasant feeling. We must learn to understand the characteristics of both so that there they can be distinguished. If there is confusion or other unwholesome defilements present that is OK. They are real and they too must be understood. > > > > 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness > > arises...period and always..." > > is what someone recently said to me. My > > understanding is that > > delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; > > though, > > yes...without first having (contact -->) > > consciousness or "kindling" > > there wouldn't be delusion. I mentioned the asava yesterday. Another way the Buddha classified defilements is by vipallasa, the perversions of seeing. I use the Patisambhidhimagga VIII "Bhikkhus there are four perversions of percep[tion,(sanna) perversions of cita, perversions of view. What four? Bhikkhus seeing what is 1.impermanent as permenent is a perversion of sanna, of citta of ditthi. 2.Seeing what is not self as selfis... 3.seeing the foul as beautiful is.. 4.seeing the painful as pleasnat is a perversion of .." The sotappana has completely eliminated forever all pervesion of view ditthi. He has also eliminated all perversions at the level of sanna and citta that see anything as permanent or self. However he still has the perversions of view at the level of sanna and citta that see the foul as beautiful and the painful as pleasant. It is sometimes thought that the experience of nibbana is some sort of mystical event whereby someone who was deluded is meditating and suddenly switches into an enlightened being. However, even before becoming a sotapanna there is a gradual diminishment of wrong view, ditthi, which is the grossest, most dangerous defilement. Thus someone may not be enlightened but if they have considered and tested the teachings and studied realities directly a lot, they will have only rarely, if at all, the perversions at the level of ditthi( those that see what is not self as self or what is not permanent as permanent.) They will still have these perversions at the level of sanna and citta however, although these will gradually recede as understanding deepens. Robert 585 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jul 2, 2000 11:33am Subject: Full title Dear all, I forgot to tell you that we have changed the section name of DSDG to Dhamma Study Internet Discussion Group at which will please Robert, Jonothan and Rosan, I'm sure. Sorry for the delay, I completely forgot about it waiting for more votes but yesterday K. Warangkana reminded me about it, thank you Nong Lan. If anything else needs fixing please tell me, Amara 586 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 0:56am Subject: Q&A3 Dear friends in the dhamma, We received some questions at DS to which Varee wrote some very good answers in Thai, now translated and uploaded in the Q&A section under Q&A3, at . The background is the popular Hourglass Nebula by NASA, by the way. Any comments or corrections most welcome, Amara 587 From: Theresa Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 2:13pm Subject: Re: A few Questions Hello Kashi, << ----- 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"? -------- >> There are three kinds of knowledge : (1) one learned from meditation books, dhamma talks, and Tipitaka.. (2) one come from "Reasoning" based on past experience, gained through Mindfulness.. (3) one come from direct experience with Mindfulness, right in the moment of Mindfulness.. This is Insight (Panna).. I'm not sure how the three kinds of knowledge are comparable to the two terms, "contemplation" and "reflection".. << ----- 2) If there are differences, is reflection consumated to reveal another level of insight? -------- >> "Reasoning" can not give Insight.. Insight is direct knowledge.. << ----- 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and always..." is what someone recently said to me. My understanding is that delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though, yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or "kindling" there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to mean "always") people born "deluded?" -------- >> "Consciousness" as in Vinnana (the aggregate) ?? "Perception" as in Sanna (the aggregate) ?? The 5 aggregates are all conditional and impermanent.. Everything we perceive is based on the 5 aggregates.. Delusion ?? The 5 aggregates.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 588 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 5:14pm Subject: Re: A few Questions > (3) one come from direct experience with Mindfulness, right in the > moment of Mindfulness.. This is Insight (Panna).. Theresa, Panna means knowing realities as they really are, nama as nama and rupa as rupa, not as a person experiencing something. It can be at the intellectual level as well as at the level of sati or direct experience, or of the level of clearly experiecing a reality as not the self, or ultimately of the level that eradicates kilesa, level by level. > "Reasoning" can not give Insight.. > Insight is direct knowledge.. Reasoning with panna can be conditions for sati to arise and dirctly experience nama and rupa. Amara 589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 5:26pm Subject: Re: A few Questions Kashi, Welcome to the group. We are glad to have your contribution. > 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"? I don't think its possible to give an answer to this without knowing the context. This is because the same word can mean different things, depending on the user's intention. Would you like to give us more information about what you have in mind, or the context in which you came across the terms? > 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and always..." > is what someone recently said to me. My understanding is that > delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though, > yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or "kindling" > there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to mean "always") > people born "deluded?" Delusion (moha, ignorance) is a mental factor (cetasika) that accompanies every moment of unwholesome consciousness (akusala citta). We all have many moments of unwholesome consciousness in a day. This is because of our accumulated delusion or, to put it another way, our lack of wisdom. So yes, we are born this way. But delusion does not arise at other moments of consciousness. So we are not deluded all the time, thank goodness! Jonothan. 590 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 7:26am Subject: jetlag realities! Dear Group, Yes, we're back and I'd also like to welcome Kashi and other new 'lurking' members to the group which is now very international. I'm delighted to see all the great messages that have come in during our holiday and look forward to going through them in due course. Meanwhile i'm struggling between jetlag and office work...but how helpful it is to have confidence that even when totally 'spaced' out there are realities that can be understood at these times...still seeing, hearing, thinking (however muddled the concepts maybe), attachment, aversion and all the others we discuss on this list. It's a bit like when one loses one's memory....still realities which awareness can be aware of. In this context I remember once asking Khun Sujin about if one suffers from Alzheimer's disease whether awareness can arise and develop. Her answer was that there are different moments. In other words there isn't loss of memory at every moment and for awareness of thinking to arise, it doesn't matter what the concepts are that thinking thinks about. In the same way, it seems to me one can be spaced out one moment and with or without awareness and thinking 'clearly' the next, with or without awareness. But what about when someone appears to have lost all memory and not even recognise those around them. Can there be any awareness? I'm not sure. I would think it certainly would need to have been accumulated beforehand. I'm beginning to ramble.... Sarah 591 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 9:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jetlag realities! Dear Sarah, Welcome back. Interesting question about Alzheimers. "> In this context I remember once asking Khun Sujin > about if one suffers from > Alzheimer's disease whether awareness can arise and > develop. Her answer was > that there are different moments. In other words > there isn't loss of memory > at every moment and for awareness of thinking to > arise, it doesn't matter > what the concepts are that thinking thinks about. In > the same way, it seems > to me one can be spaced out one moment and with or > without awareness and > thinking 'clearly' the next, with or without > awareness." Excellent comments "But what about when > someone appears to have lost all memory and not even > recognise those around > them. Can there be any awareness? I'm not sure. I > would think it certainly > would need to have been accumulated beforehand." My grandmother started to lose her memory when she was about 89 and it got worse and worse until her death at 93years. My mother was very worried by this. I pointed out that granny was still in good spirits and that all her accumulations from the past were not wasted. We cling to memory as self. But the fleeting realities that make up the process of memories are part of the 5khandhas. They are alien, not "us". One might forget even the Dhamma one has learnt but this does not mean that there is never any sati after that. It is like when we die and start a new life. This is far more extreme -we remember nothing of the old yet accumulations of panna are not lost. However if our understanding is only book learning then the wisdom is superficial and flows away. Robert > > 592 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 11:04am Subject: fwd : The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice ===== forwarded message starts here ======= From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Mon Jul 3, 2000 5:32pm Subject: The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice Incidentally there is a story illustrative of the importance the Buddha attached to the practice of the Dhamma. One day, the Buddha came out of the Jetavana monastery with the bhikkhus to go on tour. King Kosala, the merchant Anathapindika, and other lay disciples requested the Buddha not to go on tour, but it was in vain. The merchant was unhappy because he would not be able to hear the Buddha's teaching or to make offerings to the Lord and the bhikkhus. His slave girl, Punna by name, said that she would ask the Buddha to come back. The merchant promised to free her from bondage if she could make the Buddha return to the monastery. Then Punna followed the Buddha quickly and implored the Lord to come back. The Buddha asked her what she could do for him. She replied that she had nothing to offer, but that she would take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha and observe the five precepts if the Lord spent the lent in Savatthi city. Saying, "Sadhu – sell said", the Buddha blessed her and returned to Jetavana monastery. The news spread and the merchant set Punna free and adopted her as his daughter. She was no free to do what she liked, free to shape her own destiny. For this reason and by virtue of her parami (kammic potential) in her previous lives, she joined the holy order. She practiced vipassana and when she developed insight into the impermanence of nama-rupa, the Buddha exhorted her thus: "My daughter, just as the moon is full and complete on the fifteenth day, so also you should practice vipassana to the end. When your vipassana insight is complete, you will attain the end of suffering." After hearing this exhortation, Punna theri attained the last stage on the holy path and became an Arahat. The Buddha had of course foreseen Punna's destiny and it was his concern for her spiritual welfare that prompted him to cancel the projected tour and turn back in response to her appeal. This is an example of the high regard for the practice of Dhamma that Gotama Buddha had in common with other Buddhas. – A Discourse on Paticcasamuppada by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw of Burma, translated by U Aye Maung, 1982 pp 79-80 http://home.earthlink.net/~brelief 593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 5, 2000 1:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice > Incidentally there is a story illustrative of the importance >the Buddha attached to the practice of the Dhamma. One day, the >Buddha came out of the Jetavana monastery with the bhikkhus to go on >tour. ... This is an example of the high >regard for the practice of Dhamma that Gotama Buddha had in common >with other Buddhas. Theresa, Thank you for posting this summary of one of the suttas. It inspires me to look up the sutta itself when I get home. In fact, the whole of the Buddha’s life following his enlightenment was devoted to urging people to realize for themselves the truths that he himself had realized. So it is not just one particular sutta that shows the importance of the practice of the Dhamma. The crucial question however is, What exactly is the practice of vipassana as taught by the Buddha? I suggest that without a detailed study of and reflection on the teachings our practice cannot be correct. I would be interested to know whether you find in this sutta support for any different view. Jonothan 594 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 1:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Robert, I really appreciated this post of yours and especially appreciate your consideration and investigation of the teachings. To me, this is the real meaning of reflection and consideration. For this, inevitably as you and Amara keep reminding us, we have to see what is really meant by the Pali words. I like the idea of complication being used to refer to tanha, ditthi and mana (see below). Don't we really complicate our lives all day long by following the greeds, wrong views and conceits? Thanks, Sarah > >Dear GROUP > Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas >(see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa. >Studying the Titipika – the Vinaya, the Suttanta, the >Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that >the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how >can we practice correctly? We might be practicing >something different from the Buddha's teaching. > >But how do we study? > Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating. >Every sentence has deep meaning. >Let us consider the word “complication”. This was >In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 >Anuruddha Sutta >One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one >sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha >“This Dhamma is for one who >enjoys non-complication, who delights in >non-complication, not for >one who enjoys & delights in complication.”'I looked >up the pali of this sentence: “nippapancaramassayam >dhammo nippapancaratino nayam dhammo papancaramassa >papancarintino” > >What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and >non-complication? I once heard someone –referring to >this sutta- say this meant people should not think too >much because this complicates things and takes people >away from the present moment. And in a superficial way >there is something in this. But we can always learn >more. > >Complication in this sutta is the English translation >for papanca. There are three papanca – tanha (desire), >ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana >paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong >samasara vata , the round of births and deaths. >And now we may want to understand what the Buddha >mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have >only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or >is there more to it? So we study a little more - we >learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca >the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I >597) says that wordly life is diversified (another >word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is >also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the >Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: >The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin >of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this >world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? >On account of the eye base and visible object, eye >consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the >conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling >arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through >desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment >bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming >birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, >lamentation. > The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of >ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind. > >Then we might wonder – well is this process of >Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now >there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is >there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just >this question over and over one may learn that even >when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be >present.– For example I am sitting in my office in >Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no >particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment >and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn’t >apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these >moments in daily life can we find out the answers and >really learn just what life is and what the Buddha >taught. > >Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it? >Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early >practice). But we can also understand it; and I think >that is most useful. Then we can study its >characteristic more. We might find that it is very >common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have >sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati. >But if we are prepared to study tanha again and >again – and of course not neglect the direct study of >all other realities- we might become wary of its >tricks. We might start to see the difference between >true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are >actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. >Also we might find out that when we thought we had >sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a >papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin >to realize that when we had the idea that we could >make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea >of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another >papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things >out we are learning something of immeasurable value. >We are learning what we really are – a skin bag >stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to >comprehend what this path involves. > >This letter started off to discuss one word from a >sutta – papanca .So far we haven’t even scratched the >surface on one aspect of papanca. >That is to be expected. One aeon is so long – Billions >and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took >four incalculably long periods of time plus one >hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become >a Buddha . We don’t have to develop parami to the >extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long >time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who >have so much parami already but this is just tanha, >one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who >already have great parami, but this is mana, another >papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many >aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep >investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the >commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA >p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara >Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami >of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made >this aspiration that “questioning discerning people >all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of >wisdom’. > > But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in >a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so >rigorously and then considered how to ask even more >discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that >wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to >learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of >the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This >too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound >trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to >develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss >with many helpful people but get nothing from it. > >It is our attitude when investigating that is >important. One could be intent on learning about >papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas >while studying and not even realize that sometimes it >was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case >then no great benefit comes from such research. We >need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the >purpose of discussion is to help us better understand >this moment. >SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone >else. I need to develop more listening skills, more >questioning skills . I need to study much more , >countless times more the characteristics of tanha and >mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more >the words in the Tipitika. > >Robert > 595 From: Kashi Yum Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 8:21pm Subject: Re: A few Questions Hello All, Thank you everyone for your replies, it will take me some time to investigate. I will try my best to describe how I came about asking my questions. I do not have a meditation teacher nor have yet read the Abhidhamma (only its definition), so I lack knowledge of many terminologies in describing my experiences, please bear with me. I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of Insight" prepared under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama Mahathera. As I read through the series of contemplations, it became evident that I have gone through some of the experiences described in this book but am careful whether this is really through direct experience or if it is just "book learning." This is what I'm working on---figuring out what is what, which is which. Jonathon, to answer your question as to how my initial questions came about (their context)---they were partly due to taking time off from reading and going over what I just read vs. what I remember experiencing (with regards to what I just read). During this investigation, I remembered reading the word "reflection" and was not sure if there were any differences between it and contemplation.(Does this make sense?) What word would best render "reflection?" --- anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?) I realize that there is this tendency in my thinking to "over-investigate," am never quite sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule where if the gut feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know what other English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it is the same as "intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something after an applied investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but that I have come across something that is not yet apparent/developed or not yet truly and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, let go of the investigation and go on to other things. From everyone's replies, I see pieces to the puzzle. For example, Theresa mentioned the 3 kinds of knowledge which I have not thoroughly investigated; Amara's reply to my 3rd question made me realized that I was not delving into dependent origination deeply to understand why there was delusion at the moment of consciousness, but at the same token the gut feeling was to pursue investigation into perceptions in order to get into the workings of delusion. Dependent origination seems so basic, yet here I was puzzled over why there was delusion when we are born. Sarah then posted Robert's writings on concentration in which he wrote about papanca, which I recently read about and perhaps that was the context of why I wrote that my understanding was that "delusion primarily manifests in perceptions." I appreciate all replies, as you can see there is much for me to investigate and reinvestigate. To me, it is all new (even though it's been around for a couple of thousand years). I am glad to have been invited here because of the focus on meditation reinforced by Pali--- it helps tremendously! May all be well and happy, Kashi P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a lot, this is another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them to represent the aggregates. 596 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 10:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A few Questions --- Dear kashi, Good to see you investigating. As you have heard me say before there are many levels of understanding at both the experiential and theoretical level. > > > > I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of > Insight" prepared > under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama > Mahathera. As I > read through the series of contemplations, it became > evident that I > have gone through some of the experiences described > in this book but > am careful whether this is really through direct > experience or if it > is just "book learning." I think this book may be a summary of the seven stages of insight based on a section in the Vissudhimagga- an ancient commentary. I am glad you are carefully considering whether this is just book learning or direct experience. A problem is that people read these descriptions and are all too ready to decide that they have gone through them. You see we can fit, somehow, almost any experience into any system that anyone describes if we are led by tanha, ditthi or mana. The development of understanding comes with real detachment from the idea of self - it leads away from trying to prove to ourself that we are wise or we are right or whatever. And if wisdom develops to the degree that vipassana nana are experienced any idea of control is absent. I meet and correspond from time to time with people who think they have experienced this or that stage who are clearly deluded. If I think I can help I will try to gently point out this out but it depends on the amount of attachment they have to their "attainments' (and also accumulations from previous lives) whether they will listen. I have met many people who overestimate their spiritual progress but very, very few who underestimate. Why is that? The answer is papanca. Usually the hardest to help are those who are most dedicated- they are making such monumental efforts and giving up so much, making so many sacrifices that they naturally feel very changed when they think about their old self. They assume this must be what the path is and find it very hard to see that wisdom is quite invisible, that it is a gradual dropping away of view and a deeper understanding into dhammas. So subtle. . > I've adopted a rule > where if the gut > feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know > what other > English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it > is the same as > "intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something > after an applied > investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but > that I have come > across something that is not yet apparent/developed > or not yet truly > and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, > let go of the > investigation and go on to other things. This is as good a way as any other to study. You see there really and truly is no self, no Robert, no Kashi. There is no one who can decide to develop understanding, who can make effort, or do anything. Effort arises because of conditions and effort can arise with kusala or akusala. We think we decided to learn about Buddhism but it happened by conditions: We cannot suddenly decide to think differently or have deep understanding, it is all conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24 paccaya (conditions). Some of which are past and some present. But even the present ones do not simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even the cittas that are arising at this moment are conditioned by previous cittas as well as well as by other conditions that are present at the same time. This is not the place to go into details but it is well worth studying the Patthana. It gives us a glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom of the Buddha. Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the deep teachings on anatta, are a condition for understanding. This understanding leads to energy of the right sort: energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the study and practice of vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that will gladly keep developing understanding moment after moment, life after life, aeon after aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if understanding grows then there will be detachment from the idea of self and control. Then there is not much worry about the path or about where we are on it - because "I" have been taken out of the equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that we want to be happy, get enlightened, whatever. Then, as the Vissudhimagga says, there is a path but no one on the path. P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a > lot, this is > another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them > to represent the > aggregates. > This is not a problem - even the Buddha used I and my as terms. It is the understanding behind the terms that counts. Anyone can say things like " there is no self, there are only the aggregates (khandas)" but what is the understanding? Are we saying these words but still believing that we can control something, somehow? Robert --- Kashi Yum wrote: > Hello All, > > Thank you everyone for your replies, it will take me > some time to > investigate. I will try my best to describe how I > came about asking > my questions. I do not have a meditation teacher nor > have yet read > the Abhidhamma (only its definition), so I lack > knowledge of many > terminologies in describing my experiences, please > bear with me. > > I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of > Insight" prepared > under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama > Mahathera. As I > read through the series of contemplations, it became > evident that I > have gone through some of the experiences described > in this book but > am careful whether this is really through direct > experience or if it > is just "book learning." This is what I'm working > on---figuring out > what is what, which is which. > > Jonathon, to answer your question as to how my > initial questions came > about (their context)---they were partly due to > taking time off from > reading and going over what I just read vs. what I > remember > experiencing (with regards to what I just read). > During this > investigation, I remembered reading the word > "reflection" and was not > sure if there were any differences between it and > contemplation.(Does > this make sense?) What word would best render > "reflection?" --- > anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?) I > realize that there > is this tendency in my thinking to > "over-investigate," am never quite > sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule > where if the gut > feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know > what other > English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it > is the same as > "intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something > after an applied > investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but > that I have come > across something that is not yet apparent/developed > or not yet truly > and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, > let go of the > investigation and go on to other things. > > From everyone's replies, I see pieces to the puzzle. > For example, > Theresa mentioned the 3 kinds of knowledge which I > have not > thoroughly investigated; Amara's reply to my 3rd > question made me > realized that I was not delving into dependent > origination deeply to > understand why there was delusion at the moment of > consciousness, but > at the same token the gut feeling was to pursue > investigation into > perceptions in order to get into the workings of > delusion. Dependent > origination seems so basic, yet here I was puzzled > over why there was > delusion when we are born. Sarah then posted > Robert's writings on > concentration in which he wrote about papanca, which > I recently read > about and perhaps that was the context of why I > wrote that my > understanding was that "delusion primarily manifests > in perceptions." > > I appreciate all replies, as you can see there is > much for me to > investigate and reinvestigate. To me, it is all new > (even though it's > been around for a couple of thousand years). I am > glad to have been > invited here because of the focus on meditation > reinforced by Pali--- > it helps tremendously! > > May all be well and happy, > Kashi > > > P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a > lot, this is > another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them > to represent the > aggregates. > > 597 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 6, 2000 11:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd : The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice Theresa, Further to your posting about emphasis on the practice, the Pali Dictionary of Proper Names gives the story of the slave-woman Punna. (It is not from a sutta, but is given in one of the commentaries to the suttas - ie, as background explanation). According to this source, Punna was already a Sotapanna when she heard the exhortation from the Buddha (and as such, of course, she already knew full well the value of the practice of the Dhamma.) She became an Arahata on hearing the exhortation. Another translation of the words spoken to Punna by the Buddha is available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/therigatha/thig1.html#3. It reads as follows- "Punna, grow full with good qualities like the moon on the fifteenth day. With discernment at total fullness, burst the mass of darkness." Jonothan. 598 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 0:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A few Questions Kashi, >…………………………… I am glad to have been >invited here because of the focus on meditation reinforced by Pali--- >it helps tremendously! The question of meditation is an ongoing topic on this list. As in the case of your previous posting, “meditation” is a word that has different meanings depending on how it is used. Some people use it as a translation of the Pali word “bhavana”, so that “vipassana bhavana” becomes “insight meditation”. However, a better translation of bhavana would be “mental development”. Thus, samatha bhavana means simply the development of concentration (of a certain level), and vipassana bhavana means the development of insight or understanding (of a certain level). Exactly how these qualities are to be developed is what the teachings are all about. To use the term meditation, which to most people suggests some kind of a formal practice such a sitting, gives bhavana a slant that it does not actually carry in the original texts. I am sure that everyone on this list is interested in developing more kusala (wholesomeness) of every kind – dana (generosity), sila (moral conduct) and bhavana. But our focus is mostly on vipassana bhavana, which is the only level of kusala that leads to release. This is the aspect of the teaching that was unique to the Buddha. And to this end we find discussion and study of the original texts very useful, because we understand that the teaching is very subtle and very deep and cannot be realised simply by applying a technique that someone else has taught us. So in a sense I would prefer to say that our focus is or should be on the understanding of the teachings, because this necessarily leads to the gradual realisation of those teachings. I hope you continue to find the list useful. Please keep up the comments and questions. Jonothan 599 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 3:25am Subject: Dhammapada quote Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group! You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my dusty Dhammapada texts too! I have a question at the end. >Dear Amara, >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent: > > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom >without meditation. > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close to >peace and > > emancipation." > >… other versions: > >There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks >insight, and no >insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He >in whom are >found both meditative concentration and insight, >indeed, is close to >Nibbana. 372” > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking: Natthi jhanam apannassa panna natthi ajhayato yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca sa ve nibbanasantike >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All >these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful to >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987, Oxford >university press). Another verse in the Dhammapada >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever firm >of enterprise, those steadfast ones touch Nibbana, >Incomparable release from bonds” >Those meditators is the English translation of te >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the wise >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation >concerned with objects constituted by the eight >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with the >characteristics of existence constituted by the Paths >and the fruits of insight.” >The first one refers to samattha meditation using one >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina. And >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the three >characteristics. >Robert. Robert, I've also gone back to check the background in my excellent copy of Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame) Harvard Oriental Series, PTS) The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses were spoken by the Buddha after a very interesting story about the conversion of a pack of thieves who were in the process of robbing the recently converted Elder Soma's mother's house while she listened to her son preaching. When her maid told her that the empty house was being robbed she told her maid to tell the thieves to help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then the gold as she didn't want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves were so impressed by this, that they put back all they had stolen, came to offer apologies, listened to the teachings from Soma and became monks. The Buddha spoke the stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'. My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana) attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas. For this group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it may have been directed to the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about wisdom being impossible w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana. I know this is in danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the quote has been raised by Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further amongst ourselves of with K.Sujin's assistance. Thanks, Sarah> 600 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 1:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote >My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha >mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana) >attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas. Sarah, Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc. Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in ? It treats something quite similar: the abhinna. Have fun reading it! Amara 601 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote dear sarah, I should have been clearer in my posting. . > > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that > the reason the Buddha > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with > insight (vipassana) > attainment is because those listened have already Ø attained jhanas. Ø Ø Ø Ø All of us have attained jhana countless times in the past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be increasing in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However, it is true that most of us may not now have many accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now is difficult for jhana. Even though some people may attain the upacara samadhi if they practice correctly and with great care, it is very difficult to then gain full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for insight one must have mastery of several levels of jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily life),which no one, at least as I understand it can have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana. Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka vipassaka. Ø Ø "For this > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it > may have been directed to Ø the other 800+ monks listening)". Ø Ø Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. Ø Ø The phrase about > wisdom being impossible > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan > ca pannan ca) as we know > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising Ø nibbana. Ø Ø At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana – just for that very short moment. And, I might be wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas that this degree of wisdom will insight. These moments are close in concentration power to that of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But this is all quite different from the type of samadhi associated with samattha meditation which is focused on a special object and arises again and again focused on that object. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group! > > You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my > dusty Dhammapada texts > too! I have a question at the end. > > >Dear Amara, > >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent: > > > > > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom > >without meditation. > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close > to > >peace and > > > emancipation." > > > >… other versions: > > > >There is no meditative concentration for him who > lacks > >insight, and no > >insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. > He > >in whom are > >found both meditative concentration and insight, > >indeed, is close to > >Nibbana. 372” > > > > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking: > > Natthi jhanam apannassa > panna natthi ajhayato > yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca > sa ve nibbanasantike > > >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has > >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All > >these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful > to > >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the > >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987, > Oxford > >university press). Another verse in the Dhammapada > >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever > firm > >of enterprise, those steadfast ones touch Nibbana, > >Incomparable release from bonds” > >Those meditators is the English translation of te > >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the > wise > >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the > >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation > >concerned with objects constituted by the eight > >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with > the > >characteristics of existence constituted by the > Paths > >and the fruits of insight.” > >The first one refers to samattha meditation using > one > >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina. > And > >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the > three > >characteristics. > >Robert. > > > Robert, I've also gone back to check the background > in my excellent copy of > Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame) Harvard > Oriental Series, PTS) > The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses > were spoken by the Buddha > after a very interesting story about the conversion > of a pack of thieves who > were in the process of robbing the recently > converted Elder Soma's mother's > house while she listened to her son preaching. When > her maid told her that > the empty house was being robbed she told her maid > to tell the thieves to > help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then > the gold as she didn't > want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves > were so impressed by > this, that they put back all they had stolen, came > to offer apologies, > listened to the teachings from Soma and became > monks. The Buddha spoke the > stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'. > > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that > the reason the Buddha > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with > insight (vipassana) > attainment is because those listened have already > attained jhanas. For this > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it > may have been directed to > the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about > wisdom being impossible > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan > ca pannan ca) as we know > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising > nibbana. I know this is in > danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the > quote has been raised by > Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further > amongst ourselves of > with K.Sujin's assistance. > > Thanks, > Sarah> 602 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote Dear sdarah, I just reread your question and see I misunderstood part of it. There were many who attained skill in jhana of samattha at the very time they became enlightened. They may not have had any experience of it in this life but had such deep accumultaions that they became this special type of arahant. They didnt have to do all the usual preparations because of enormous parami. Robert--- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > dear sarah, > I should have been clearer in my posting. . > > > > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain > that > > the reason the Buddha > > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with > > insight (vipassana) > > attainment is because those listened have already > Ø attained jhanas. > Ø > Ø > Ø > Ø All of us have attained jhana countless times in > the > past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be > increasing > in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However, > it is true that most of us may not now have many > accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now > is > difficult for jhana. Even though some people may > attain the upacara samadhi if they practice > correctly > and with great care, it is very difficult to then > gain > full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for > insight one must have mastery of several levels of > jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so > skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily > life),which no one, at least as I understand it can > have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana. > Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the > proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka > vipassaka. > > Ø > Ø "For this > > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it > > may have been directed to > Ø the other 800+ monks listening)". > Ø > Ø Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became > enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous > accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. > Ø > Ø The phrase about > > wisdom being impossible > > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan > > ca pannan ca) as we know > > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising > Ø nibbana. > Ø > Ø At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are > fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of > jhana > – just for that very short moment. And, I might be > wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana > occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated > just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas > being insighted. No one can chose which namas or > rupas > that this degree of wisdom will insight. > These moments are close in concentration power to > that > of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But > this is all quite different from the type of samadhi > associated with samattha meditation which is focused > on a special object and arises again and again > focused > on that object. > Robert > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group! > > > > You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my > > dusty Dhammapada texts > > too! I have a question at the end. > > > > >Dear Amara, > > >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent: > > > > > > > > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no > wisdom > > >without meditation. > > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is > close > > to > > >peace and > > > > emancipation." > > > > > >… other versions: > > > > > >There is no meditative concentration for him who > > lacks > > >insight, and no > > >insight for him who lacks meditative > concentration. > > He > > >in whom are > > >found both meditative concentration and insight, > > >indeed, is close to > > >Nibbana. 372” > > > > > > > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone > checking: > > > > Natthi jhanam apannassa > > panna natthi ajhayato > > yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca > > sa ve nibbanasantike > > === message truncated === 603 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 7:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote Dear Group, for the pali scholars..I made a mistake below, so will just correct it before one of you does. The line I should have quoted in Pali is: 'panna natthi ajhayato' and not the one below. actually I was just testing Robert! Not. Sarah >The phrase about wisdom being impossible >w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know >jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana. 604 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 9:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, >such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc >Amara Amara, I find this interesting. Can you give us any references to mention of vipassana jhana in the texts? Thanks. Jonothan 605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote > At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are >fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana >– just for that very short moment. And, I might be >wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana >occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated >just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas >being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas >that this degree of wisdom will insight. >These moments are close in concentration power to that >of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ... >Robert Robert, It would be useful to know where this information is to be found in the texts. Can you give us any references? Jonothan 606 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:58am Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote Can you give us any references to mention of > vipassana jhana in the texts? Thanks. Robert, My mother donated the 2 sets of Tipitaka and commentaries to the foundation a long time ago, I don't have any on hand at home, could you please oblige? Amara 607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote Sorry jon, I am busy packing for my trip . There are terse expanations of this in some of the subcommentaries. I will be away from the texts for the next two months so you could ask Nina- she probably knows exactly where the references are. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are > >fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of > jhana > >– just for that very short moment. And, I might be > >wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana > >occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated > >just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas > >being insighted. No one can chose which namas or > rupas > >that this degree of wisdom will insight. > >These moments are close in concentration power to > that > >of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ... > >Robert > > Robert, > It would be useful to know where this information is > to be found in the > texts. Can you give us any references? > Jonothan > 608 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 6:35pm Subject: Re: About practices/teachings Mike, In answer to a question from Theresa about the similarities between the Mahasi method and the teachings of Khun Sujin, you said- > The similarities are many. However, they are different "techniques". > Yet they are both grounded in scripture and arrive at the very same > place: Insight into reality. Yes, scriptural integrity is most important. Otherwise, as you acknowledge, they could not led to the same place. And this prompted me to revisit Mahasi's classic work The Progress of Insight (Visuddhinana-katha), after an absence of many years, to evaluate his approach against the scriptures. (Note for others: a copy of this work can be accessed at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html or via a link on Mike's website at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm .) To be frank, I ran into difficulties at the very beginning. The introductory section headed "The Method of Insight in Brief" gives an overview and summary of what follows. One of the paragraphs of that section, a copy of which I have put at the end of this message, seems to suggest the following ideas or practice as part of that approach, none of which to my knowledge has scriptural support- a) That the "process of touch", "sitting" and "touching" are realities which awareness may have as its object b) That "noticing something as "X" or "Y"" forms part of the practice as taught c) That noticing the abdomen as "rising", "falling" etc has anything to do with the development of awareness/insight. And there are a number of assumptions implicit in the passage which I also question as having no scriptural support- d) That awareness may be developed by directing one's attention to a particular object of which one wishes to be aware f) That some particular objects are more suitable as an object of awareness for a "beginner" than others. g) That a person wishing to develop the path should undertake a "meditation" practice of some sort My own understanding is that there is no support for these passages and assumptions, but I don't mind being proved wrong (oroff-target). (For Theresa, I am not seeking to highlight differences, only to apply the same test as I think should be applied to any proclaimed interpretation of the teachings. After all, if the understanding/practice is not exactly as taught by the Buddha, the experience/result cannot be the same, no matter how similar it may appear to the practitioner who undertakes it.) Jonothan Extract from The Progress of Insight section "The Method of Insight in Brief"- Insight must, in fact, be developed by noticing, according to their specific and general characteristics, the bodily and mental processes that become evident at the six sense doors. At the beginning, however, it is difficult to follow and to notice clearly all bodily and mental processes that incessantly appear at the six sense doors. Therefore the meditator who is a beginner should first notice the perfectly distinct process of touch, perceived through the door of bodily sensitivity; because the Visuddhimagga says that in insight meditation one should take up what is distinct. When sitting, there occurs the bodily process of touch by way of the sitting posture and through touch sensitivity in the body. These processes of tactile sensitivity should be noticed as "Sitting _ touching _," and so forth, in due succession. Further, at the seated meditator's abdomen, the tactile process of bodily motion (that is, the wind, or vibratory, element) which has breathing as its condition, is perceptible continuously as the rise (expansion) and fall (contraction) of the abdomen. That too should be noticed as "rising, falling, 609 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 5:05am Subject: qu. from a friend in need Dear Group, I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her which I’ll make sure G receives. Sarah "--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future. Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation. At that time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying. At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( Does that sentence make sense to you?) Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the present. Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? --" [ends] 610 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need There is so much we could say about this. I leave Japan in a few hours so can only say a little now,. I guess many of us strike this fear of samasara - we are putthujhana thus the future is uncertain. Because of this fear some of us are inclined to search out teachers who can show us a technique and tell us our stage of attainment; then we think we are safe. But this is useless; we must rely on The Dhamma and learn to see the path for ourself. It is clear to me that G basically has the right idea --- . > "At the back of my mind was and is still the notion > to look up what the > abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. > Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more > concentrated on the > present. > Is there anything to be done besides starting to be > aware of nama and rupa? " Is fear us? Is calmness us? We need a strond basis in the details of Abhhidhamma and then all states can be dissected. Dissected even while they are happening. All the khandas, all the time are in a flux; there is nothing good about them. They are, as the Patisambhidhimagga says, a disease and alien, not self. Do we think calmness is good? It is just conditioned phenomena. A few days ago we had the monthly faculty meeting. It goes for three hours and is in very technical Japanese which I can't understand. I had a headache- summer is so humid here. I smuggled in some photocopied pages of Summary of Parammattha Dhamma by Khun Sujin. And so read that while glancing at the many other university papers (which i can't read anyway). It spoke about the complexity of citta . I have read it many times before. Quite naturally, without much effort, I was busy considering what was written and comparing it with the realities that were appearing. How feeling and other cetasikas condition citta and vice versa, and other details. The time went by all too quickly; I was ready for another 3 hours. Sometimes when this fear of samasara strikes we might be inclined to turn away from Dhamma - try to forget. But this is not easily done. We have accumulations and conditions for considering the Dhamma (even when we don't want to). It is all anatta. When we are learning about Dhamma there may be moments when fear arises and other moments when calm arises. We can understand that one is akusala and when we see that we are having more understanding. Fear is dosa but it can be upanissaya paccaya (a supporting condition) for wisdom if it spurs us to study more and consider more. It can also be upanissaya paccaya for wrongview if it hastens us to do some wrong practice. Understanding these details can help us to see what is really happening below the surface. If we are developing understanding of Dhamma correctly (especially Abhidhamma which has one taste - the taste of anatta), we are making merit that is unimaginably great. We are doing the Buddha's work. The benefits of this will be felt even one hundred thousand aeons in the future (unless we become arahant before). And this applies even to very basic levels of understanding let alone deeper insights. There are many stories in the scriptures of those who were in a bad way emotionally or physically who could stil develop understanding. The simile of the turtle is rather frightening but I think the commentary explains that this especially applies to those with strong wrong view who become rooted in samsara. There are several examples of someone being in hell or animal and then later being born as human or deva and attaining quickly. There is only one refuge, the triple gem, the Dhamma. Robert 611 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:47am Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need > "--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and > impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the > future. > Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation. At that > time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying. > At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the > abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I > don't know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( > Does that sentence make sense to you?) > Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the > present. > Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? > --" Sarah, Thoughts make up our individual worlds and distract us from the realities of the present, and keep us company even when we are alone, unless we recognize them as thoughts, arising in connection with what we experience through the other senses. But once we study the realities as they appear, including thoughts, we begin to realize there is no one there, only nama and rupa, no others who expect things from us, nor is there really us to bear all the burdens. The dangers of samsara are indeed frightening, which is why the Buddha encourages us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, because there is no avoiding what must come whether you worry about it or not, but anything that comes can also bring panna, if studied with sati. Again I think of Rajjumala, the slave woman in our last Q&A3 , and her extremely cruel life, from which no escape seemed possible, but with panna she became enlightened even under her circumstances. For me, to have sati may not be the only way to live in this world, but it is without doubt the best and the most beneficial way. By the way, I really liked what Robert wrote on the subject, with such care and compassion and clear comprehension of the dhamma, I really appreciated that, and thanks to Sarah posted 'G's' problems for us, Amara 612 From: Theresa Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:34pm Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need Hello Sarah, << ----- "--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future. ... At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I don't know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ... Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the present. Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? --" -------- >> Speaking in terms of "cause and effect" or "condition and sankhara" in the small scale, from moment to moment.. If certain condition gives rise to certain set of sankhara, then changing the condition will change the sankhara sets.. << ...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future... >> "Thoughts" are sankharas.. Objects of thoughts are "condition" for thoughts/sankhara.. Changing the objects will change the types of thoughts.. << ...look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness... >> The new object is the abhidhamma.. Changing to this new object did change the set of thoughts, which are "calmness".. << ...But there are days, when I don't know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ... >> More thoughts with the same old "condition".. Please choose another "condition".. May I suggest new "condition" to give you a change of sankhara: (1) reading the Tipitaka, (2) reading or listening to dhamma talks given by Sujin or any meditation teachers, whom you feel comfortable with, (4) watching your thoughts and emotions closely in order to know how they come and go, [[ this is practicing the four foundations of mindfulness.. ]], or (5) being mindful of your breath (anapassati) [[ this is practicing the four foundations of mindfulness.. ]], or (6) being mindful of your footsteps, your bodily movements, and your physical sensations (vedana) [[ this is practicing the four foundations of mindfulness, and also a shift of attention away from nama into rupa.. Change of condition ! ]], or (7) simply walking away [ at least temporary ] from the current situation which causes the uncomfortable thoughts.. [[ Change of condition !.. For examples, a) Walking or jogging for more than 20 minutes to sweat some. b) cleaning the garage, a room, a table, or a corner, c) washing the car, waxing it, and vacuming it, d) gardening, etc.. (( I am learning how to play handball, tennis, basketball, floating and swimming from my two sons.. )) ]] << ...Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the present... >> The body (rupa) is a part of the *present*.. Bodily sensations, bodily movement, and the breath (either at the nose or at the tummy) are part of the *present*.. Please use them.. They are always available, easy to "feel" and notice.. "Concentration" is gained when the mind stays on one object for a period of time.. << ...Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa?... >> Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means, mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. )) << ...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future... >> Please do not worry.. Impermanence, thus death and decay, are inevitable and thus, suffering.. The kind of life in the future ?? Kamma/sankhara will do the job.. Worrying about it will not change the course.. Buddha taught us Mindfulness to lead us forward on the Noble Path and eventually to the End of Suffering.. I like to think : "In the current moment, if Mindfulness is present, this present moment will influence the future in a more wholesome way.." :-)) May your friend, G, feel peaceful and happy in each breath, in each moment of living, from moment to moment.. With metta, Theresa. 613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 9:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need G, >"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and >impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in >the >future. >Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation. At >that >time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying. I read this as meaning that you are now considering how you should lead the next part of your life. In fact, our future is already largely spoken for. This is because of the connection that exists between our past deeds and what we experience through the sense doors (ie kamma and vipaka). So whatever our choice, the way our life is going to work out for us is wholly unpredictable. We so often forget this. We make choices based on what we would like to be doing or how we would like to see ourselves as being. When things turn out well, we take credit for making the "right" decision, and when they turn out otherwise we blame ourselves for having made the "wrong" decision. But in a deeper sense there is no "right" or "wrong" decision to make. We can only do what, in our ignorance, we think is best at the time. Worrying is indeed only thinking accompanied by unwholesome cetasikas including dosa. It is time not usefully spent. Reflecting as such can sometimes be a condition for less useless thinking and dosa. But in the end, only the development of satipatthana can eradicate our entrenched tendencies, so we had better get used to having plenty more dosa in the meantime. > But there are days, when I >don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( >Does that sentence make sense to you?) >Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the >present. >Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and >rupa?--" Actually, we all have a choice as to the extent to which we take on the demands of others. If for whatever reason we take on more than we can comfortably handle, this will inevitably condition dosa to arise. Sometimes we do this out of a sense of duty or some other commendable motive. But knowing our own limits is an aspect of sati sampajanna. And perhaps there is also a sense of self-pity (an aspect of mana) mixed in there too. I find this rather destructive tendency ever ready to creep in. Yes, we would all like to know how to deal with our strong dosa. But do we see the danger of our strong lobha, or wrong view? After all, these and our moha are what will keep us experiencing more and more strong dosa. Yet how anxious are we to deal with these when they arise? There are no quick fixes or short-term solutions. But the good news is that the development of the understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment is the ultimate cure for all ills. This requires the study of, reflection on and application of the teachings in all its aspects and by whatever means available. Abhidhamma, suttas, listening to tapes, discussions, joining internet groups etc. Whatever fits/grabs us. With luck, this will also condition more useful reflection at those times when akusala overwhelms us. I hope this helps. Jonothan 614 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:25pm Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote > >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, > >such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc > >Amara > > Amara, > I find this interesting. Can you give us any references to mention of vipassana jhana in the texts? Thanks. > Jonothan Jonothan, I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the Gathadhammapada. Hope you find them, Amara 615 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 2:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote Dear Amara, just checked the dhamma Study website below and appreciated yr clear and interesting answers there and now I know when I get mixed up with the abhinna where I can turn for clarification! Yes, I had not appreciated or heard about non samatha jhana before and realise I need to do some bookstudy in this regard. Robert also referred us to Nina's correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi in this regard which I'm in the process of pulling out. The website is growing and it's good to see the timetable of the sessions at the foundation too. Keep up the good work! Sarah > > >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, >such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc. Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in >? It treats something quite similar: the >abhinna. > >Have fun reading it! > >Amara 616 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need dear G and Group, I have little to add to the excellent responses from Robert, Theresa, Amara and Jonothan. I'm sure they are helpful to us all. Thankyou. It's so easy to make rules for ourselves about what we should or shouldn't be doing and forgetting the highest kusala(wholesomeness) is a moment of understanding of reality. Why is it that this doesn't seem enough? Because of the doubts, the lack of confidence and the unwholesome cittas (moments of consciousness) in between. The more undersatanding develops, the more we see that the rule is no rule. As the others have said, we have no idea what life has in store for us, however much we plan and arrange it this way and that. Confidence in the development of right understanding is the only way, which ever way our conventional life turns. I'm just going to quote from a note of Robert's which I found inspiring: -"I guess these days I am always fine (even when there are problems There is really only one big problem in life - to find out the truth. I went through a lot- painful stuff, trying to find the way- before I met khun sujin. Now the rest just seems unimportant. It actually doesn't matter whether one is happy or sad. Only wrongview stops understanding. We have to see that. Then we are grateful all the time that we have this amazing opportunity to deepen wisdom."- G, you have many friends here and we hope these replies are helpful. Sometimes we have to be very honest with ourselves regarding our accumulations and to follow a lifestyle that is suitable for us. Of course this isn't always possible. The Q&A section (last qu) with reply from Amara and Varee in the Dhamma Study Group website gives a good reminder of how understanding can be developed however easy or hard the living conditions. Please keep in touch with us from time to time, Sarah > >I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough >run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting >part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her >which I’ll make sure G receives. >Sarah > >"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and >impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in >the >future. >Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation. At >that >time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying. >At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the >abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I >don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( >Does that sentence make sense to you?) >Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the >present. >Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? >--" > >[ends] 617 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jetlag realities! > >My grandmother started to lose her memory when she was >about 89 and it got worse and worse until her death at >93years. My mother was very worried by this. I pointed >out that granny was still in good spirits and that all >her accumulations from the past were not wasted. > >We cling to memory as self. But the fleeting realities >that make up the process of memories are part of the >5khandhas. They are alien, not "us". > > One might forget even the Dhamma one has learnt but >this does not mean that there is never any sati after >that. It is like when we die and start a new life. >This is far more extreme -we remember nothing of the >old yet accumulations of panna are not lost. However >if our understanding is only book learning then the >wisdom is superficial and flows away. >Robert > > Dear Robert, these are good reminders. My grandmother also suffered from Alzheimer's and it is very distressing for those around. I have to say I have a fear of the same happening to me and being burden to those around me (especially to Jonothan!). But we all have our fears and useless worries when we have no idea of the realities about to appear now. There is a start to a new life at each moment after the death of the last and we are always forgetting to be aware or develop understanding while we have the chance. And, yes, we may forget a lot of dhamma (and I'm always forgetting the bookstudy), but as you say, the sati (awareness) and wisdom are accumulated. Sarah > 618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: qu. from a friend in need Theresa >Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means, >mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is >the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read >it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. )) Okay, okay, I get the message! Actually, I've just about given up asking for tripitaka references, given the lack of success in this regard lately :-( Anyway, I'm sure your statement is spot on - no need to check this one for myself. Jonothan 619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhammapada quote Amara, >I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said >they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the >Gathadhammapada. Hope you find them, Thanks very much for following up. I will no doubt come across the references sooner or later. Robert has given me one or two leads to follow up on also. Jonothan 620 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Three Marks of Existence Dear Mike, I'm just catching up with messages that came in when I was away. I feel I should make a couple of brief comments after checking the reference you quote below which I thank you for posting. Of course, these 3 characteristics have to refer to realities and not to concepts. If we talk about impermanence related to changing posture, for example, as Sumano Tong does below, we are then talking about concepts. And of course as we've discussed on this list, dukkha does not refer to unpleasantness and unpleasant experiences and feelings only as suggested but to all realities including pleasant ones and wholesome ones...all are inherently unsatisfactory because of their nature of being impermanent. And so what is anatta? Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc...all conditioned realities. As with impermanence, it does not apply to concepts. Sarah >Dear Friends, > >The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - ourselves included - >have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca), >unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or nonsubstantiality >(anatta). When we fail to recognize these three characteristics of >existence, we regard that which is impermanent as permanent, that >which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the selfless as >possessing an unchanging self. In "The Real Facts of Life - >Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of Existence" (The Wheel >Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically explores these >characteristics through many examples that can easily be found in >everyday life. It may be read online at >http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top > >With metta, > >Mike > > 621 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 0:56am Subject: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny? ------ original message ---------- From: Yick Keng Hang Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 4:41am Subject: Introduction to karma What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny? Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma and destiny? An illustration distinguishes the two: 1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple to fall. If you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall right onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, 2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple to fall onto your head. This is karma. Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny. By sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to produce an event. But when you shake the tree, you are controlling your cause-and- effect relationship in this world. Your 'shaking' action is a cause that creates an effect of a falling apple , and this effect becomes the cause of other actions like a sensational pain etc. So when we are born, everything was already decided for us in our behaviour by the habit-mind that we have created over countless lives. According to our effort in this life, we can either control our cause and effect or be controlled by this mind habit. If we want to change karma, we have to prevent unwholesome causes and conditions from happening and ripening by way of plenty of right view, right speech and right action/behaviour in our daily life. Nevertheless, we should not blame our bad karma for all our sufferings in life. What we need to be mindful of is keep on doing good and helping others through right practices of the Dharma. As the adage goes: 'What you sow, you shall reap.' "A good cause leads to a good result. A bad cause leads to a bad result." "Yesterday's neglect is today's regret. And today's neglect is tomorrow's regret." with metta, Yick. 622 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 6:47pm Subject: Re: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny? > What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny? > > > Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we > cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma and > destiny? Dear friends in the dhamma, First, what is kamma? It is defined by the cetana cetasika that accompanies all citta, whose fuction is intention or 'volition', which, when accompanying vipaka cittas is the sahajatakammapaccaya. But its characteristics appear when it is strong enough to be a desire to do something in the course of the javana-citta within the vara or process of citta through the six dvara or senses, when it accumulates latent tendencies, and finally when there is a performance of the act, or speech, the intention is carried out and the vipaka will follow, whether the act itself succeeds or not. In an extreme example, when an attempt was made against the Buddha's life, his vipaka was not to harmed by anyone ever, except very superficially, but the person who had the cetana and done the deed, even if it failed, because of the enormity of the cetana and the deed already done, suffered the consequences as a matter of course. Such kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate, within that lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results as are the results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the lokuttara-bala-citta which follow would come immediately as the succeeding citta. All other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear fruit, depending on many conditions, or paccaya. Therefore all our lives we receive vipaka, call it destiny if you wish, but understand that it is not only for this lifetime but for as long as we remain in samsara. But we are also performing kamma that will bring ever more vipaka; only the arahanta have kiriya-citta instead of the kusala or akusala-citta that constitute kamma or more for destiny to compute with all the billions upon billions of lifetimes of kamma already performed. > An illustration distinguishes the two: > > > 1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple to fall. If > you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall right > onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, Why go sit under the tree? The desire for an apple to fall on your head. Whether it does right away depends on vipaka or destiny. > 2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple to > fall onto your head. This is karma. Or it might fall on someone else's, depending on the individual vapaka as well as other paccaya, (conditions), not the kamma alone. > Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny. By > sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple > eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to > produce an event. Both actions are because of the cetana cetasika, and the results still are beyond control, maybe there were no apples, just flowers. Amara 623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny? Theresa, Kamma is a fascinating subject, but a somewhat misunderstood one. Kamma is one aspect of a relationship of cause and result. Kamma is the cause part. It may be wholesome or unwholesome. The result, pleasant or unpleasant, is known as vipaka. Loosely speaking, wholesome and unwholesome deeds of a certain strength or intensity are kamma, and good or bad fortune experienced in life is vipaka. So when people say "It’s my kamma", meaning that something unfortunate has happened that could not be avoided, they usually mean "It’s my (unwholesome) vipaka"! More precisely, however, kamma is the mental factor of intention (cetana cetasika) that arises with the citta (moment of consciousness) that performs the deed, and vipaka is the object experienced through the sense door that is conditioned by that citta, ie a pleasant or unpleasant visible object or sound or smell or taste or tactile object. Every moment of experience through a sense door is vipaka. However, only cittas which are accompanied by cetana (intention) of a certain strength will condition a result by way of vipaka. In other words, only wholesome and unwholesome deeds of a certain kind and intensity constitute kamma. But kamma once performed cannot be "changed" in any way. Even the Buddha in his final life had to suffer the result of akusala kamma (unwholesome deeds) from the past eg illness, vagaries of weather, seeing dead bodies etc. Nor can we perform wholesome kamma, or in any way influence the kamma being performed, by choosing to do, since each moment of citta and its accompanying cetana arises by its own conditions. Since there are sense-door experiences the whole day, there is vipaka the whole time, including those moments when apples fall on our head. And whatever the reason for an apple’s falling, that moment of experiencing hardness through the body-door is a moment of vipaka. Jonothan 624 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:54pm Subject: fwd : Curiosity ------- forwarded message --------- From: SM Ang Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 7:42am Subject: Curiosity Hi everyone, Charlotte Joko Beck said... One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the heart of practice. If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like? Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our sitting. This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere. ~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen. Metta, siew 625 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 1:43am Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity Dear friends in the dhamma, I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following passage from , beginner section, 'Be Here Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt: This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma. The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with what you are doing, for instance, when cycling be with your cycling and enjoy nature, the birds. When you lie down on the floor feel your whole body on the floor. Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: -- If you try to concentrate on your feet going around no awareness of anything. It is just a self who is trying to direct awareness, an idea of what you think awareness is, to some place or other of the body, because we want to know this, we want to know that. It is not natural. It is not getting rid of attachment, it is increasing it. Questioner: Attachment to what? Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. If we are attached to watching our feet going around or to the feeling we get when we are lying prostrate on the floor, then that is attachment to those objects which appear. And attachment to the idea of a self who can take something and direct it to this point and be "aware". It is not really awareness, it is not detachment. It is increasing the idea of a controller who can direct and induce awareness. There is so much concentration involved; it is not natural at all. When one is cycling normally what happens? There is attachment, there is aversion, there is ignorance. Because that is what there is now and that is what there is time and again. Day in, day out. It does not stop when you get on your bicycle. It keeps going, attachment, aversion and ignorance. Sometimes there can be a moment of awareness which is aware of whatever appears through any doorway, no choosing. Not concen-trating on the bodysense in order to be aware of movement. Not concentrating through the eyes in order to be aware of visible object. Not concentrating on any particular doorway, looking for some-thing or trying to direct awareness but just letting awareness arise naturally. We should realize that awareness only arises by conditions and that you can't make it happen here or there for a long time. You can't keep it somewhere. The whole point of developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not self, as any-thing else. If you try to keep awareness, concentrating on a particular spot of the body you are certainly not being aware, but there is a self who is trying hard to make something the way he wants it to be. Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have to be aware now. We have no other opportunity. And what will you be aware of? Sitting is not a reality. But there is seeing now. Why go past the eye. So we see. Seeing is not sitting, seeing sees. And there is visible object, which makes it possible for seeing to arise. So there is visible object to be aware of too. And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what you call your body, in the position that you conventionally label "sitting posture" You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are tangible objects being experienced in different places where there is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a "whole". Seeing is not sitting. The experience of hardness at this point does not sit. The experience of coolness at that point does not sit. The coolness itself does not sit. "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. It is not a reality. Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality without thinking. Because the function of panna is not thinking, its function is to see clearly, to penetrate that which we mistake for "sitting". We mistakenly think that a person is sitting. We have the wrong idea of "I am sitting". Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence out of the context. This is only one sentence out of the 84.000 sentences which compose the teachings of the Buddha. There can be right understanding when we have studied and learnt many other areas of the teachings. Then we will see how these all point in the same direction: to be aware of the different characteristics appearing one at a time through different doorways, right at this moment, whatever you may be doing. If you are sitting, be aware. Don't try to change things. Because if you want to try and change something you are not being aware at this moment. Here we are, we are sitting, why would we want to change? Do we think we will have more awareness if we do so? We have attachment to the idea of a self who is going to get more awareness if he does so. But there is no awareness of the realities now, there is no awareness which will destroy the illusion of a self sitting or lying or doing anything else. It is attachment. (End quote) This is only a part of his answer, you can read the rest of this great piece when you have the time at , beginner section, 'Be Here Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, Amara 626 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 8:36am Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity Hello Amara, Great message.. Thank you.. I only kept part of it at the end of my post, but your entire message was beneficial.. << > The experience of hardness at this point... > The experience of coolness at that point... > "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. > It is not a reality. >> Even though the postures (sitting, lying down, walking and standing) are conventional concepts, we can use them to help us see realities.. We can be attached to the "whole" body in one moment, but once we start to notice that we have "an attached thought", we can see the end of that thought, or we can see the change in thoughts.. Once we see changes (impermanence), the concept of the "whole" converts (terms?) into reality.. On pages 7 and 8 of Part 1 of the book, "Realities and Concepts" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, I read : << ...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that *ARISE* and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is no being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he taught to others... >> When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in the current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and next moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to moment.. When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there is "no self".. At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall (Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of Mindfulness.. With metta, Theresa. --- "amara chay" wrote: > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following > passage from , beginner section, 'Be Here > Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt: > > > This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo > (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma. > The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with > what you are doing... > Questioner: Attachment to what? > > Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of > developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. > So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not > self, as any-thing else. . . . > Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have > to be aware now. ... > Sitting is not a reality. ... > And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what > you call your body, in the position that you conventionally > label "sitting posture"... > You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are > tangible objects being experienced in different places where there > is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you > have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what > you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's > teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through > seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a > "whole". . . . > The experience of hardness at this point... > The experience of coolness at that point... > "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. > It is not a reality. > > Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, > posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality > without thinking. . . . > Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. > > We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one > should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence > out of the context. 627 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 4:03pm Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity > ...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop > panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that > appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can > be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that *ARISE* > and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is no > being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha > dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the > truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he > taught to others... > >> Theresa, Another important part of the paragraph is when Khun Sujin said, ***One will know that there are only paramattha dhammas that appear one at a time.*** Even trains of thoughts appear one, in fact one concept at a time, now only a sentence or a whole train, so when you say that you ' For example, in the previous moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and next moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to moment..' you are talking about a much larger expanse of time than that of a single reality: while you are watching the arising and falling away of your thought, there were many thoughts as well as other realities appearing, such as body sense and hearing and most of all, countless bhavangas that arise in between times. You were watching the beginning and the end, but the arising and falling away is of each infinitesimally short instants that succeed one another so that we seem to see and hear at the same time but in fact they are closer together than the pixels on the television screen when thousands are swept across at each second, so that the image seems entire, whereas they are composed of tiny dots of light. The citta is much faster than that. Between each instant of seeing and hearing even as we talk with anyone, there are many bhavangas in between as well as other kinds of citta. It is the arising and falling away of each separate and succeeding reality that Khun Sujin refers to, not some imaginary beginning or ending of the infinite trains of thought. So while we sit in front of the computer screen we normally would have seeing and probably all have the body sense of the seat as well as thoughts of all kinds, including the sounds of the computer set: loudspeakers and keyboards, etc. These are paramatthadhamma, not the concepts that are generally parts of trains of thoughts without the consciousness of having trains of thought, and then thinking, there, the thoughts have ended. But even as you think the 'full stop' part, there are thoughts doing that, but no awareness. That is why the dhamma is not easy to see, otherwise everyone would attain the clear knowledge of the arising and falling away ever so easily. It is not just the intellectual knowledge that does not know the rapid succession of the citta of each instant of our lives, and only is conscious at the moment one starts to think for long periods, without realizing that at each instant citta arise to know things through the dvara through the mind dvara ceaselessly. When we see through the eye or chakkhu-dvara, for example, the citta can only perceive colors and form, but the citta that recognizes it, or misinterprets the sights and mistakes it for something else, is through the mind door. I suggest you study the processes of citta in the 'Summary' so you will understand what I am talking about. > When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in the > current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, > impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly > experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous > moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and next > moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. > That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to > moment.. I repeat again that even the Buddha cannot change anything to anything, they have already fallen away by the time you perceive them, one can only create conditions for the new ones to come. Without studying the Buddha's teachings you would of course think you can change things since you can not see the tiny inastants that make the continuous moments. But this is what he taught, even before men could scientifically break down things into tiny particles in order to rebuild them as a whole, such as sound and images, and pretty soon, probably other substances. Without conscientious study of his teachings one may think one understands the meaning of life, but it is just superficial rote verbalization and not the clear understanding that eradicates ignorance and kilesa. > When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there > is "no self".. At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" > exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall > (Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of > Mindfulness.. Each word of the Dhamma has very profound meanings and it is detrimentary to your own understanding to oversimplify them, you might then think you understand everything whereas the deeper and most crucial meanings escape you entirely, as a parrot enumerating the four ariya sacca dhamma, unable to relate them to the present instant of sight, sound, smell, etc. Amara > --- "amara chay" > wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > > > I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following > > passage from , beginner section, 'Be > Here > > Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt: > > > > > > This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo > > (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma. > > The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with > > what you are doing... > > Questioner: Attachment to what? > > > > Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of > > developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. > > So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not > > self, as any-thing else. . . . > > Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have > > to be aware now. ... > > Sitting is not a reality. ... > > And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what > > you call your body, in the position that you conventionally > > label "sitting posture"... > > You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are > > tangible objects being experienced in different places where there > > is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you > > have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what > > you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's > > teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through > > seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a > > "whole". . . . > > The experience of hardness at this point... > > The experience of coolness at that point... > > "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. > > It is not a reality. > > > > Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, > > posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality > > without thinking. . . . > > Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. > > > > We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one > > should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence > > out of the context. 628 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd : Curiosity Dear Theresa, it's interesting when you quote other writings. It would be even more interesting if you put a note at the start to explain why you have selected the quotes for posting here! I thought the responses by Amara and Jonothan to the quote about the apples and kamma were really excellent and very clear. When I read the extract below before I read the very useful and pertinent quote from Phra Dhammadharo, which Amara posted, my inclination was to respond with one word only. That word is 'SELF'. As Amara has pointed out several times, we've heard about anatta and we think we understand the meaning and then we continue to try and control our lives and the realites appearing, as the writer does below, by attempting to notice and be minful of present experiences. Unless there is any direct understanding of realities (with a lot of intellectual understanding in the first place), without any confusion between realities and concepts, there cannot be even a beginning of understanding of either the impermanence or the anattaness of these realities. Reading some of the excellent messages here is a very good condition for more of that understanding to develop. I'm really very pleased that you are so interested in understanding the dhamma and appreciate there can be a lot of confusion when one has been following different practices. It seems you're putting this time between jobs to the best use possible. Keep it up! Best wishes, Sarah >Hi everyone, > > > > >Charlotte Joko Beck said... > >One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole >motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with >him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly >agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with >this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become >puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or >depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a >willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we >make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and >we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the >heart of practice. > >If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We >suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to >investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with >intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what >it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being >preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our >immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees >and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our >thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that >we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's >normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is >investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear >things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger >thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the >loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look >at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I >thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking >about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than >running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we >investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been >sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So >we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like? >Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but >of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't >want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious >thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our >noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are >simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our >sitting. > >This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere. > >~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen. > > >Metta, >siew > > 630 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:38pm Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > --- Dear Group, > I am travelling outside japan for the next two months > but will try to connect from time to time. > > I like your reply very much Amara. One point though: > where you wrote > "Such > kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate, > within that > lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results > as are the > results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the > lokuttara-bala-citta > which follow would come immediately as the succeeding > citta. All > other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear > fruit, > depending on many conditions, or paccaya." > > The first javanna citta in the series of seven can > produce its result in this life. However, if there are > not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no > opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults in > future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is the > spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce their > results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in the > future (except for the last one but I haven't got the > reference handy). Even now, during these few seconds > of reading this reply there are thousands and millions > of series of javanna cittas arising and passing away. > Which ones were kusala, which ones were akusala? > > Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of > kamma: In the Patthana it is > explained that akusala kamma can sometimes be a > supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise. > As an example of how this works consider a bank robber > who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never > caught and lives a happy life enjoying material > wealth. It might seem unfair - doesn t it contradict > the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a > result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But > conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma > , the moments of different pleasant sense objects > later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs > kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also > sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition > (not the main condition). In this case we don t know > what the original kusala kamma was that gave its > result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala > kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the > story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma > is liable to give its result - and that will be > akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in > the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all? > Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism . > they then read it it and develop much kusala - the > akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition > for kusala kamma. > I study Japanese language and find it tedious (dosa > -akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss > Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the > akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to > explain Dhamma to them to have understanding . > Very complex but that is the way things work. We can t > control any of it but if there are the right > conditions - careful study, deep consideration, > accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso > manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually > the tangle of life can be > untangled. Robert, Thanks for the details and especially the reminder that one should never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no matter how familiar one may think one is with the material. No matter one's personal state of mind, the intricacy of such teachings deserve respect, thorough consideration and description for the general benefit as well as oneself. Amara > > Charlotte Joko Beck said... > > > > . Suppose that > > instead of being > > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our > > attention to our > > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal > sitting - the usual pattern. What we're > > really doing is > > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our > > experience: we hear > > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our > > sensations trigger > > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So > > we notice the > > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and > > we begin to look > > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I > > do?" "What am I > > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am > > constantly thinking > > about this instead of that?" If we notice our > > thinking rather than > > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down > > and we > > investigate the next moment. That awareness could > > be, "I've been > > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is > > beginning to hurt." So > > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really > > feel like? > > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical > > sensations, but > > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the > > fact that we don't > > want to be sitting here at all. This process can > occur not just in sitting, but > > elsewhere. > > > > ~ > This is a good example of the misunderstandings that > pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is > the key to understanding but the type of superficial > investigation recommended here will merely result in > more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is > investigating. A self who can control investigating. A > self who is having insight. A self who is getting > calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having > pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is > enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not > thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self. > > However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could > perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be > able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please > don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or > jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly > small as already there are over a hundred postings a > month and some people have left the group complaining > that they cannot cope with the amount of reading > required) > > Robert > 631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity Dear Amara, I made a mistake myself (just remembered). I think the next five after the first javanna can give result as rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in the far distant future. But someone should check- i think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details. > > The first javanna citta in the series of seven > can > > produce its result in this life. However, if there > are > > not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no > > opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults > in > > future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is > the > > spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce > their > > results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in > the > > future (except for the last one but I haven't got > the > > reference handy). > Amara you wrote > "Thanks for the details and especially the reminder > that one should > never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no > matter how > familiar one may think one is with the material. No > matter one's > personal state of mind, the intricacy of such > teachings deserve > respect, thorough consideration and description for > the general > benefit as well as oneself." Your reply was anything but flippant. It was very useful and entirely correct except for a very minor detail which in no way affected the main ideas. It is good to point out minor errors, though, in case they become repeated by others. I sometimes make them myself and greatly appreciate it if anyone can correct them. (and if I make big errors and they are corrected my gratitude is unbounded) Robert > 632 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 10:10pm Subject: List Bulletin Dear Group, Robert’s comments below have prompted us to send out a ‘list bulletin’. Yes, we are aware that some people have found the volume of messages a problem lately. But very few have actually left the group and it’s growing steadily (27 or 28 members at present). New Members No need to check with us at all. Anyone is welcome to join. Suggestions for coping with the volume 1. Choose to receive the messages in ‘Digest’ form, which means that each day’s messages come to you in a single email, separate from your other messages. This is done by going to the group’s website at http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup and clicking on the appropriate drop-down box. 2. Choose the "Web-only" option, which means that you don’t receive any messages by email, but visit the list when you want to read or post a message (same procedure as for (1)). 3. Start a separate email account just for this list, or set up a filter in your email account so that all messages go into a separate folder 4. Be selective. Skip those messages which are of no special interest to you 5. Print out or download long or detailed messages to read at your leisure during boring meetings or on holiday Also, some people have mentioned they find personal messages annoying which are not of relevance or of interest to the group as a whole. Please use your personal email for these. Mistakes We all make mistakes and these should not be any cause for concern. After all, we all know it’s the intention that matters! Jonothan & Sarah >However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could >perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be >able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please >don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or >jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly >small as already there are over a hundred postings a >month and some people have left the group complaining >that they cannot cope with the amount of reading >required) > >Robert > 633 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 16, 2000 0:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity Robert & others According to Ven Narada’s translation of the Abhidhammata Sangaha ("A Manual of Abhidhamma", p.167)- The first javana citta is the weakest as it lacks any previous sustaining force. Its kammic effect may operate in this present life itself, but if it does not it becomes ineffective (ahosi). The last is the second weakest, because the sustaining power is being spent. Its kammic effect may operate in the immediately subsequent life, but if it does not it also becomes ineffective. The effects of the remaining 5 may operate at any time until one attains parinibbana. Jonothan >I think the >next five after the first javanna can give result as >rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they >don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in >the far distant future. But someone should check- i >think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details. >Robert 634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:45am Subject: Re: Curiosity & Conditions Dear Robert, I'm glad you're still checking in on us and hope you're having a good trip. Your posting about paccaya (conditions) was interesting and I decided to check out which condition this was and see what Nina has to say in'Conditionality of Life'1990. In the process of stepping on a stool to get it down from a top shelf, several books fell on my head and so the (mostly) good intentions were a condition for many moments of akusala vipaka to be experienced... I presume you're referring to 'natural decisive support condition', 'pakatupanissaya paccaya', the third decisive support condition and one I'm not very familiar with. I quote from Nina because I found this relevant part interesting.: '.....The natural decisive support condition is very wide. Kusala citta can be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. We read in the same section of the 'Patthana': "Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence condition." One's knowlege of Dhamma may be a natural decisive support condition for conceit or for wrong view. One may have studied the Dhamma but one may not consider realities in one's daily life and one may have wrong understanding of the practice or one may have confidence in a teacher who practises in the wrong way and thus one may, because of confidence, follow the wrong practice. Kusala can lead to aversion, it can be natural decisive support-condition for aversion. When one makes an effort to help someone else it may cause fatigue and then aversion may arise...... ....Kusala citta can lead to bodily discomfort, which is akusala vipakacitta. One may , for example, pay respect at the Buddhist places in India, and this is a wholesome deed. However, the hotel where one stays may be dilapidated, without facilities, and then one suffers from heat, mosquitos and other discomforts. Then there is body-consciousness which is akusala vipaka. This is produced by akusala kamma, but it is also conditioned by kusala kamma by way of natural decisive support-pcondition. Thus phenomena which arise are not merely conditioned by one type of condition but by several types.' This list is certainly a condition for me to study more abhidhamma. Thanks Robert for the prompt! Sarah >Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of >kamma: In the Patthana it is >explained that akusala kamma can sometimes be a >supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise. >As an example of how this works consider a bank robber >who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never >caught and lives a happy life enjoying material >wealth. It might seem unfair - doesn’t it contradict >the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a >result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But >conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma >, the moments of different pleasant sense objects >later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs >kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also >sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition >(not the main condition). In this case we don’t know >what the original kusala kamma was that gave its >result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala >kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the >story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma >is liable to give its result - and that will be >akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in >the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all? >Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism . >they then read it it and develop much kusala - the >akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition >for kusala kamma. >I study Japanese language and find it tedious (dosa >-akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss >Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the >akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to >explain Dhamma to them to have understanding . >Very complex but that is the way things work. We can’t >control any of it but if there are the right >conditions - careful study, deep consideration, >accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso >manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually >the tangle of life can be >untangled. > > > Charlotte Joko Beck said... > > > > . Suppose that > > instead of being > > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our > > attention to our > > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal >sitting - the usual pattern. What we're > > really doing is > > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our > > experience: we hear > > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our > > sensations trigger > > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So > > we notice the > > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and > > we begin to look > > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I > > do?" "What am I > > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am > > constantly thinking > > about this instead of that?" If we notice our > > thinking rather than > > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down > > and we > > investigate the next moment. That awareness could > > be, "I've been > > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is > > beginning to hurt." So > > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really > > feel like? > > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical > > sensations, but > > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the > > fact that we don't > > want to be sitting here at all. This process can >occur not just in sitting, but > > elsewhere. > > > > ~ >This is a good example of the misunderstandings that >pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is >the key to understanding but the type of superficial >investigation recommended here will merely result in >more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is >investigating. A self who can control investigating. A >self who is having insight. A self who is getting >calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having >pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is >enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not >thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self. > >However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could >perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be >able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please >don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or >jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly >small as already there are over a hundred postings a >month and some people have left the group complaining >that they cannot cope with the amount of reading >required) > >Robert > 635 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:32pm Subject: khanika samadhi Dear group, I just received a letter from Nina giving some comments on khanika samadhi. She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon explains a Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket ( Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises with every citta - whethe aksuala or akusala or otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous. She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief moments. I go to perth tomorow and will hook up to the internet sometime. Robert 636 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 5:13pm Subject: Re: khanika samadhi > She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon explains a > Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket ( > Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that > khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises > with every citta - whethe aksuala or akusala or > otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous. > She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana > the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and > samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief > moments. Robert, Yes, the lexicon is the 'Dhammanukarama of the Paramatthadhamma Sankep' and explains the khanika samadhi as the ekaggata cetasika that is one of the universal cetasika that acccompanies all citta. The lexicon is not yet in book form as far as I know, the one I have is still loose leafed in plastic ring sets. (As you know, it is in Thai.) Already at the instants of sati the five magga of the eightfold path arise and gathers strength, at deeper moments of sati they can already be very strong. At the moments of nana the five cetasika are even stronger, and at the instant of magga citta all eight of the cetasika that form the eightfold path arise together, uniquely at the attainment of each of the four levels of the ariya puggala, respectively. At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners' abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just starting. I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from book study for a while will find these recordings interesting. They will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and teaches!). By September we hope to have finished setting up an internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working on that. I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people, especially those outside Thailand. Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great thing! Amara 638 From: Theresa Date: Wed Jul 19, 2000 9:14am Subject: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition ======= forwarded message starts here ========= From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" 639 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition Dear Theresa, Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but have mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the study of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin. I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from? To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the term dukkha. What is your opinion? With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Theresa Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 8:14 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition > > ======= forwarded message starts here ========= > > From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm > Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition > > > Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 > Simsapa Sutta > The Simsapa Leaves > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. > Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the > monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the > few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa > forest?" > "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. > Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." > > "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct > knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have > taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not > connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy > life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, > to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That > is why I have not taught them. > > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of > stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have > taught them. > > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is > the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your > duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to > the cessation of stress.'" > > 640 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:07pm Subject: 24 paccaya Dear Khun Betty, The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following. 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult without the basics. with metta, shin 641 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:27pm Subject: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday Dear Pi Joy, Unfortunately, I am not able to attend the discussion on this Saturday again. Last week, I had to go to Taiwan. This Friday, I will have to go to Singapore. Therefore I am missing alot of dhamma discussion, which have been extremely helpful to me in understanding the dhamma better. Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely appreciated if Archan can provide the help. Due to the previous years, I didn't really understand the real dhamma. Until recently after we had the English dhamma talk, I realized that we can not just understand the Paramattha Dhamma without true understanding and the right understanding. And this is because of Archan Sujin's effort in teaching by not continuing anything else, unless everyone understand the basics. Thankyou and Anumotana Archan Sujin for her metta in teaching the true dhamma of the Lord Buddha. Last but not least, thankyou and anumothana Pi Joy for translating the Paramattha Sankapa for all of us. Anumothana everyone for keeping the dhamma wheel rolling by coming to the dhamma discussion, without you all, there will be no sound of dhamma at all. Anumothana, Shin 642 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 4:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya Dear Shin, Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to? What aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain. Yours in Dhamma, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya > Dear Khun Betty, > The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following. > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object > 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality > 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence > 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma > 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana > 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation > 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance > > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult > without the basics. > > with metta, > shin > 643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 1:29am Subject: distribution of tapes & materials Dear Amara and friends, I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due course an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system is in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make some video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan has suggested this before as well. I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of true dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know when they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as well. Sarah> >At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at >the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners' >abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just >starting. I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from >book study for a while will find these recordings interesting. They >will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun >Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and >teaches!). By September we hope to have finished setting up an >internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working >on that. I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people, >especially those outside Thailand. > >Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great >thing! > >Amara > > 644 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya Dear Khun Betty, Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand. Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2 years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations) which is related to Patthana. Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when the word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly. It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or self. I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am trying to convey. Let me know. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya | Dear Shin, | Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to? What | aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain. | | Yours in Dhamma, | Betty | ----- Original Message ----- | From: shinlin Dear Khun Betty, | > The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following. | > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root | > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object | > 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance | > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority | > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity | > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence | > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality | > 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support | > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support | > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence | > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence | > 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition | > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma | > 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result | > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment | > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty | > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana | > 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path | > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association | > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation | > 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence | > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence | > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance | > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance | > | > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand | > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult | > without the basics. | > | > with metta, | > shin | > 645 From: shinlin Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials Dear Sarah, I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of video taping the dhamma discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or Chaichan is preparing to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it on a CD Rom. Our company has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan thought of this idea. I somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one would want to see it. But now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I will have to talk to Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once the final decision is made. with metta, shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 6:29 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials | Dear Amara and friends, | | I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there | will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due course | an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be | properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system is | in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have | copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for | editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make some | video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan | has suggested this before as well. | | I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of true | dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm | delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know when | they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as | well. | | Sarah> | | >At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at | >the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners' | >abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just | >starting. I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from | >book study for a while will find these recordings interesting. They | >will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun | >Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and | >teaches!). By September we hope to have finished setting up an | >internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working | >on that. I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people, | >especially those outside Thailand. | > | >Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great | >thing! | > | >Amara | > | > | 646 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 9:51pm Subject: Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition Hello Betty, << ------- You wrote : I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from? To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the term dukkha. What is your opinion? -------- >> I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his response.. << =========== Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote : Dear Theresa, The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all. I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you are asking. Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)", the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth, illness, aging, death... Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma- dukkha... what? The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head... Metta, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. http://www.buddhadharma.org/ The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes all sorrow. -----Dhammapada 354 ============== >> With metta, Theresa. 647 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 7:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials Dear shin, Tell khun Kwan I think it is a great idea to video the discussions. If they are carefully edited so that only the most useful bits are kept (ie 95% acarn sujin) then they will prove very interesting to people. And thanks for your lovely postings recently - I respect your strong confidence in the Dhamma. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of > video taping the dhamma > discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or > Chaichan is preparing > to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it > on a CD Rom. Our company > has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan > thought of this idea. I > somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one > would want to see it. But > now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I > will have to talk to > Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once > the final decision is > made. > with metta, > shin 648 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 10:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition Hello, Theresa, Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a suitable translation for the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word "stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven. Dhammapiyo. Many thanks. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Theresa Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition > Hello Betty, > > << ------- > You wrote : > I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the > excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this > translation from? To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper > meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE > KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning > possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather > narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation > that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the > term dukkha. > > What is your opinion? > -------- >> > > I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his > response.. > > > << =========== > Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote : > > Dear Theresa, > > The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all. > > I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you > are asking. > > Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of > itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)", > the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth, > illness, aging, death... > > Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since > conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural > dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma- > dukkha... what? > > The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just > cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head... > > Metta, > > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > > Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. > http://www.buddhadharma.org/ > > The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth > excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all > other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes > all sorrow. > -----Dhammapada 354 > > ============== >> > > With metta, > > Theresa. 649 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:45am Subject: Re: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday > Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely appreciated if Archan can provide the help. Dear Shin, I will print out your message for Tan Achaan, but as it is we are having 2 discussions per week already, aren't we? Every Saturday and every other Wednesday on the weeks she does not go to edit tapes at Kaeng Krajarn? Which other day did you have in mind, because Sundays are already taken at the foundation? I'll ask her tomorrow if you tell me the precise day, Sorry you'll miss tomorrow's discussions again, what a pity!! Amara 650 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:56am Subject: Fw: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition Dear Ven. Dhammapiyo, In the course of ongoing discussions held by the dhammastudy group, the correspondence below took place between Theresa and myself over the use of the word "stress" in English to attempt to adequately translate all that is meant by the Pali term dukkha. After finding your e-mail address from your website, I decided to write to you so that I could try to clearly convey to you the question that was on my mind. I am fully aware of the usual usage of the words "suffering", "unsatisfactoriness", and now perhaps "stress", to convey English meanings for the term dukkha. But as I write this, the thought came to me that as one grows in understanding, that even those words become inadequate to really convey the deeper meaning. So, for me this also has become an object lesson in the need to use Pali terminology as a medium for any discussion of dhamma. For, in the course of debating which English terms to use, one can get bogged down in arguing over terminology and lose site of the real intent, the understanding, in this case, of the term dukkha. If you are interested, I think those in our group could gain much from your own wisdom and insight. So, if you would like to follow our discussions and share your understanding of dhamma with us, please check out our website at www.dhammastudy.com and our e-mail address at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109196227048211120136083229073126 With metta, Bongkojpriya Yugala (Betty) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition > Hello, Theresa, > Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main > question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of > the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a > suitable translation for the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word > "stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and > understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven. > Dhammapiyo. Many thanks. > > With metta, > Betty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Theresa > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition > > > > Hello Betty, > > > > << ------- > > You wrote : > > I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the > > excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this > > translation from? To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper > > meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE > > KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning > > possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather > > narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation > > that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the > > term dukkha. > > > > What is your opinion? > > -------- >> > > > > I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his > > response.. > > > > > > << =========== > > Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote : > > > > Dear Theresa, > > > > The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all. > > > > I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you > > are asking. > > > > Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of > > itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)", > > the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth, > > illness, aging, death... > > > > Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since > > conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural > > dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma- > > dukkha... what? > > > > The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just > > cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head... > > > > Metta, > > > > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > > > > Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. > > http://www.buddhadharma.org/ > > > > The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth > > excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all > > other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes > > all sorrow. > > -----Dhammapada 354 > > > > ============== >> > > > > With metta, > > > > Theresa. 651 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya Dear Shin, Thanks again for the list. Indeed, the thought came to me in the course of the week asking just what were the various conditions Achaan always talks about. Sorry you won't be there tomorrow, but I will print out the e-mails and ask Achaan to discuss the paccaya. Have not gotten to that point in the readings yet. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Dear Khun Betty, > Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is > conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The > teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was > fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or > Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand. > Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2 > years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is > going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations) > which is related to Patthana. > Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when the > word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or > PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. > Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything > is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly. > It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or > understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or > self. > I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am > trying to convey. Let me know. > with metta, > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya > > > | Dear Shin, > | Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to? > What > | aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain. > | > | Yours in Dhamma, > | Betty 652 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 22, 2000 9:20pm Subject: List Bulletin Dear Group, >Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but >have >mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the >study >of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin. This is a message to those of you out there who, like Betty, have been following the list but who hesitate to participate directly in the discussions - now would be a good time to take the plunge! A number of the more regular contributors to the list will be less active over the next few weeks. So here's your chance to make a comment or post something new. Erudite scholarship is not required - everyday issues are most welcome! By the way, do not feel that the list is only for those who have studied with Khun Sujin. As we say in our group description, we are a forum for anyone who wishes to understand the teachings of the Buddha. Jonothan & Sarah 653 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:38pm Subject: New section Dear friends in the dhamma, We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by Khun Sujin, at , to which we will be adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite passages you wish to share with us and all our readers. Anumodana in advance, Amara P.S. Any comments and feedback would be appreciated! 654 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 0:01pm Subject: Re: New section --- "amara chay" wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages > explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by > Khun Sujin, at , to which we will be > adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite > passages you wish to share with us and all our readers. > > Anumodana in advance, > > Amara > > P.S. Any comments and feedback would be appreciated! Dear all, Another short new page added to the new section above, called 'Kamma'. For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last Wednesday among other things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the problems of translations where meanings are lost when certain words are used as the obvious translation without explanation or qualifying additions, such as 'apo'. Translated as 'water' without the qualifying 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as to lose the inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and bathing, whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which, together with the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or the smallest, indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and therefore all rupa, are based. For example, rocks can manifest the characteristics of apo when it is in the form of lava flows, or when there are explosions of high magnitude when comets or asteroids hit a planet. Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify at high pressure and low temperature, before showing the characteristics of the earth element as well as temperature as dry ice. Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it was also composed of apo. Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in water but in translations unless we qualify it as 'water element', people might associate it simply with just the H2O. The Pali terms still seem to be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think. Amara 655 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 4:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section --- Dear amara, Quite right. That is why nina usually translates the elements by the english terms hardness,heat, vibration, solidity, fluidity and so on rather than such words as earth, water, fire which, although correct as literal translations are actually highly misleading. The ancient commentaries went to great lenghts to explain the characteristics of these elements so that the meaning was made clear - that it is not at all the concepts that we think of, but the fundamental characteristics that are meant. Even when we use the terms heat and solidity etc or even the pali, and we experience these characteristics as they appear it doesn't follow that we are necessarily experiencing them with panna or sati. These elements are appearing constantly but their true nature is obscrured by avija. We think this earth that we stand on is something solid and stable. But every element that makes it up is evanescent and it is more space element that anything else,.(and how much more unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying "hardness is not as hard as you think" I met with a couple of the local Buddhists here in Perth and spent several hours discusiing Dhamma. They hadn't herad much Abhidhamma before and were quite prepared to disagree with what I said. One of them was a phd student in philosophy and was used to energetic discussion. I certainly didn't change their thinking but I appreciated there willingness to discuss and consider: it is the first step to deeper understanding. I met with an old friend also while in New Zealnd - a Thai who has listened to acharn Sujin a great deal- and who has about forty tapes but is asking for more. Amara could you arrange another 30 or forty of the more recent edited tapes in thai and I will pay for them when I arrive in thailand on september 1. Next week I go to bali for 10 days before returing to perth. Robert > > For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last > Wednesday among other > things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the > problems of > translations where meanings are lost when certain > words are used as > the obvious translation without explanation or > qualifying additions, > such as 'apo'. Translated as 'water' without the > qualifying > 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as > to lose the > inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and > bathing, > whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which, > together with > the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or > the smallest, > indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and > therefore all > rupa, are based. For example, rocks can manifest > the > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of > lava flows, or when > there are explosions of high magnitude when comets > or asteroids hit > a planet. Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify > at high pressure > and low temperature, before showing the > characteristics of the earth > element as well as temperature as dry ice. > > Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it > was also composed > of apo. > > Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in > water but in > translations unless we qualify it as 'water > element', people might > associate it simply with just the H2O. The Pali > terms still seem to > be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think. > > > Amara > > 656 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section >Amara could you arrange another 30 or forty of the >more recent edited tapes in thai and I will pay for >them when I arrive in thailand on september 1. Robert, Will ask people at the foundation tomorrow, a senior bhikkhu who used to help Khun Sujin analyse the original Pali texts thirty odd years ago is coming to see the foundation for the first time, his very busy schedule kept him from the opening day. I will be seeing the people responsible for the tapes then, they will be very happy to help. Have a nice trip and many useful discussions, Amara 657 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section Dear Robert an Amara and friends, I'm glad you've both brought up the area of elements on the list....they may seem less 'appealing' than cetasikas (mental states) or feelings, for example, as objects of study and awareness. However, these rupas are being experienced continuously through the body sense and are a condition for all the different mental states that follow. If there was no hardness or softness experienced, there wouldn't be the condition for the aversion or attachment to that very experience. As Robert says, we often have the wrong idea of what is experienced...'hardness is not as hard as you think'..apo dhatu (water element) is not as 'narrow' as we might think. However, whenever there is talk of space element, my mind starts to 'space' out. Intellectually it (knowlege of space element) helps to understand the anattaness of hardness, for example, but I need to hear and consider more for it to make more sense. Perhaps one of you has some good references or quotes. Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation, cohesion and bathing doesn't make much sense to me, especially the bathing! Perhaps you would explain further. I'm meaning to get out Nina's rupas and do some more study, but right now I'm in the middle of teaching my very busy summer courses, so it'll have to wait a little... Amara, it's good to hear about the points of discussion with khun Sujin in both the Thai and English groups. Best wishes, Sarah p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find the new section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct me, thanks! We think this earth that >we stand on is something solid and stable. But every >element that makes it up is evanescent and it is more >space element that anything else,.(and how much more >unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying >"hardness is not as hard as you think" > >> > For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last > > Wednesday among other > > things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the > > problems of > > translations where meanings are lost when certain > > words are used as > > the obvious translation without explanation or > > qualifying additions, > > such as 'apo'. Translated as 'water' without the > > qualifying > > 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as > > to lose the > > inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and > > bathing, > > whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which, > > together with > > the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or > > the smallest, > > indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and > > therefore all > > rupa, are based. For example, rocks can manifest > > the > > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of > > lava flows, or when > > there are explosions of high magnitude when comets > > or asteroids hit > > a planet. Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify > > at high pressure > > and low temperature, before showing the > > characteristics of the earth > > element as well as temperature as dry ice. > > > > Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it > > was also composed > > of apo. > > > > Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in > > water but in > > translations unless we qualify it as 'water > > element', people might > > associate it simply with just the H2O. The Pali > > terms still seem to > > be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think. > > > > > > Amara > > > > 658 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2000 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition Betty, I too found the sutta extract interesting. It is a useful reminder that all we really need to know in life is that which helps us develop understanding of the realities. The rest is of no use to us in the long run, no matter how important it may seem to us now. I agree with your comments on the translation of Pali terms which have no adequate equivalent in English. The Pali Text Society translation of the same sutta uses "Ill" for Dukkha, which also falls far short of the mark. The translationj posted by Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo is the same as the one at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-31.html. I don't know where these translations originate. Jonothan >I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt >given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from? To >me, >dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept >of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to >convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by >giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the >contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of >the term dukkha. 659 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2000 9:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya Shin, It is also worth bearing in mind that, when the Buddha said that everything is conditioned, he was pointing out an aspect of the nature of realities, rather than referring to a particular conditioning factor. All realities in our life are by their nature conditioned, ie dependent on something else for their arising, and are therefore impermanent, whereas we perceive them to be absolute and permanent. So even without a detailed knowledge of the 24 paccaya, we can reflect on this aspect of the truths in our lives. The study of the 24 paccaya helps us to understand better some of the complexities of this relationship of dependency. But only a Buddha truly understands it. Jonothan >From: "shinlin" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:33:06 +0700 > >Dear Khun Betty, > Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is >conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The >teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was >fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or >Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand. >Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2 >years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is >going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations) >which is related to Patthana. > Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when >the >word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or >PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. >Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything >is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly. > It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or >understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or >self. >I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am >trying to convey. Let me know. >with metta, >Shin 660 From: amara chay Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 2:32am Subject: Re: pali terms and elements New section > Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation, cohesion and bathing > doesn't make much sense to me, especially the bathing! Perhaps you would > explain further. > > > For example, rocks can manifest > > > the > > > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of > > > lava flows, or when > > > there are explosions of high magnitude when comets > > > or asteroids hit > > > a planet. Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify > > > at high pressure > > > and low temperature, before showing the > > > characteristics of the earth > > > element as well as temperature as dry ice. Sarah, Apo is a chatu at the base of all rupa, which means that all that you experience other than the nama are made up of apo. The characteristics are best manifested in water, which bathes and saturates things like sponges and our very own bodies can be bathed on the outside as well as by all the liquid saturating all the cells. On the other hand things like an iron bar can be made to show the characteristics of liquidity by melting them down so that it can also bath and saturate and be molded into different shapes. Gasses can also take liquid form, showing the characters of apo, of which it is also composed. Therefore if you equate apo with water you might be confused to find that there are none in an iron bar or dry ice when in fact all non-nama elements are based on apo as one of the indivisible 8 rupa of the smallest kalapa, which no rupa is without. > p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find the new > section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct me, thanks! For the new series, go to and click on the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined text 'A Few Words'. I have just made some corrections because I gave the wrong credits and links for the background!!! Enjoy, Amara 661 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 10:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments However, > these rupas are being > experienced continuously through the body sense and > are a condition for all > the different mental states that follow. If there > was no hardness or > softness experienced, there wouldn't be the > condition for the aversion or > attachment to that very experience. " Do you remember saying this to me when I stayed with you and John in Hongkong(1991)? It really changed my understanding and helped me see the neccesity of direct study of rupa - such as colour. We think we see people, woman, children, friends, enemies. But there is only different colours experienced through the eyedoor. The more we learn to separate out the different elements from concepts the more the world becomes understandable. Even though this is just the beginning and it is such a slow process it is still incredibly helpful and useful in daily life. It gives one great confidence in the Dhamma. > > However, whenever there is talk of space element, my > mind starts to 'space' > out. Intellectually it (knowlege of space element) > helps to understand the > anattaness of hardness, for example, but I need to > hear and consider more > for it to make more sense. Perhaps one of you has > some good references or > quotes. Dear Sarah Space element is merely that palce where no other rupas exist. Between the myriad, incredibly tiny kalalpas that make up any o > > Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation, > cohesion and bathing > doesn't make much sense to me, especially the > bathing! Perhaps you would > explain further. > > I'm meaning to get out Nina's rupas and do some more > study, but right now > I'm in the middle of teaching my very busy summer > courses, so it'll have to > wait a little... > > Amara, it's good to hear about the points of > discussion with khun Sujin in > both the Thai and English groups. > > Best wishes, Sarah > > p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but > couldn't find the new > section you mentioned with the K.Sujin > quotes...would you direct me, thanks! > > > We think this earth that > >we stand on is something solid and stable. But > every > >element that makes it up is evanescent and it is > more > >space element that anything else,.(and how much > more > >unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying > >"hardness is not as hard as you think" > > > >> > For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last > > > Wednesday among other > > > things we talked about the use of Pali terms and > the > > > problems of > > > translations where meanings are lost when > certain > > > words are used as > > > the obvious translation without explanation or > > > qualifying additions, > > > such as 'apo'. Translated as 'water' without > the > > > qualifying > > > 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow > as > > > to lose the > > > inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation > and > > > bathing, > > > whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa > which, > > > together with > > > the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest > kalapa or > > > the smallest, > > > indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, > and > > > therefore all > > > rupa, are based. For example, rocks can > manifest > > > the > > > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of > > > lava flows, or when > > > there are explosions of high magnitude when > comets > > > or asteroids hit > > > a planet. Gasses such as hydrogen can also > liquify > > > at high pressure > > > and low temperature, before showing the > > > characteristics of the earth > > > element as well as temperature as dry ice. > > > > > > Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if > it > > > was also composed > > > of apo. > > > > > > Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in > > > water but in > > > translations unless we qualify it as 'water > > > element', people might > > > associate it simply with just the H2O. The Pali > > > terms still seem to > > > be best to remind us of its true meanings, I > think. > > > > > > > > > Amara > > > > > > > > 662 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 4:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New section Amara, I have just checked out first article 'Visitors' in the new section. A very interesting slant on a rather'ordinary' subject! A suggestion, if I may. The border pattern intrudes into the text on my screen making it unreadable (I had to print the article out). I am sure it is a matter of a simple adjustment. (Also, some may find the pattern a bit distracting, as it is rather strong.) Keep up the good work! Jonothan 663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A few Questions Kashi In a posing earlier this month you said- >about (their context)---they were partly due to taking time off from >reading and going over what I just read vs. what I remember >experiencing (with regards to what I just read). During this >investigation, I remembered reading the word "reflection" and was not >sure if there were any differences between it and contemplation.(Does >this make sense?) What word would best render "reflection?" --- >anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?) It is difficult to say what someone else means when they use a word, unless they are using it to translate a particular term from the Pali texts. So I’m afraid I can’t help here. Also, I am not a Pali scholar! >………………………………………… I realize that there >is this tendency in my thinking to "over-investigate," am never quite >sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule where if the gut >feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know what other >English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it is the same as >"intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something after an applied >investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but that I have come >across something that is not yet apparent/developed or not yet truly >and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, let go of the >investigation and go on to other things. Investigation of the reality that appears at the present moment is never "over-investigating". But "pursuing" something is another thing altogether, because then one is no longer paying attention to the reality appearing at the present moment. Besides, our gut feelings/intuition are heavily influenced by my own ignorance and wrong view and are therefore not a safe guide. So perhaps it is better to let go of the attachment to pursuing things. Jonothan 664 From: Kashi Yum Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 10:21pm Subject: Re: A few Questions Thanks for reply Jonothan...and yes, I'm still here :-). I'm setting up a new computer to replace my very, very old one---so it's taking me a while. Concentrating on reading previous posts right now for better understanding. Respectfully, Kashi 665 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: New section > I have just checked out first article 'Visitors' in the new section. A very > interesting slant on a rather'ordinary' subject! Jonothan, If you follow the reference and the link at the bottom of the page you will see that it is an excerpt from the 'Summary' but I am hoping to add quite a few more from other sources, all by Khun Sujin. > A suggestion, if I may. The border pattern intrudes into the text on my > screen making it unreadable (I had to print the article out). I am sure it > is a matter of a simple adjustment. (Also, some may find the pattern > a bit distracting, as it is rather strong.) Thank you for the feedback, could I ask you for some details? I checked the page out with Netscape and Internet Explorer and both came out right, so I'd like to make sure, and could you hit the 'reload/refresh' click before answering, 1. What is your screen screen size 640 pixels wide 800 pixels wide 1024 pixels wide 2. What browser are you using? 3. Which side or is it both sides of the borders intrude? 4. By how many letters approximately? The details would help me correct the page much more easily since I can't see them on my screen. A little note, as these first four are just snippets from the 550 pages book, they are meant to be just trailers for the main feature film that is why its packaging is a bit loud and bold, but if it doesn't work I will find another background. Thanks for the info, and don't worry if you can't answer all the questions, Amara 666 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:24am Subject: Unwelcome Visitors Dear Amara and friends, We went out for a delicious Indian meal after I finished teaching yesterday evening and were discussing the article from the site below about the 'Unwelcome Visitors' through the sense doorways. (i.e. if there is attachment or aversion to what appears, it's an unwelcome visitor). I was revelling at the time in the attachment to the tastes of a masala dosa (an Indian dish not to be confused with dosa as discussed in Buddhism!) and to the visible objects too. There was no way I was interested in seriously considering these tastes and visible objects as unwelcome visitors. However, it's good to be honest with ourselves. We may talk about the danger of akusala (Unwholesome mental states) but are we really interested in seeing the danger? Are we really interested in knowing more about nibbana? Not yet is the truth most of the time! Sarah > >For the new series, go to and click on >the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where >there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined >text 'A Few Words'. I have just made some corrections because I gave >the wrong credits and links for the background!!! Enjoy, > >Amara > 667 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:26am Subject: helping and not helping Dear friends, When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had committed suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course is mostly thinking and dosa. This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. A few years ago on a brief return trip to England she had particularly asked to meet me because she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. We had two quite long chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple of Nina's books. There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again and of course there was no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. She might have felt shy to write or follow up herself or might not have been sufficiently interested without further direct contact. Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news on this visit as I said. I am just so glad now that we have this group so that I can encourage anyone to join/read if they have the inclination and also to be able to refer people to the web sites. It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done more' entirely forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of course the thinking and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a prompt to me to make a little more effort next time, but who knows about conditions in the future? I'd appreciate any further comments. It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a psychiatric centre many, many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know well and used to have discussions with also committed suicide when I was on sick leave. I felt perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the real problem (for me) is clinging to the view that in some way we are responsible for others' vipaka and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power of kamma and the other conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at these times and the inadequate understanding of realities. Sarah 668 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping Dear Sarah, I look forward to what others have to say about these very interesting problems. This life is important because we are human and can therefore take advantage of the buddhas teaching. However it is only one life in the endless stream of samsara. Your friend now has a new life somewhere in some form. She killed herself but this alone would not necessarily take her to lower realms. In the time after doing the action leading to death there would have been billions of processes of mind taking place (even if it was only seconds before she died) and so no way to know which kamma finally conditioned rebirth. It could have been a kamma even from thousands of lives ago. You aaaaaagave her nina's books thus she must have read something about paramattha dhamma. This is a great protection: it is the rarest, most precious thing we can do in any life and her study must bring benefits in the future. Sorry running out of time -i am on a coin internet Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear friends, > > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my > age who had committed > suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of > course is mostly > thinking and dosa. > > This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. > A few years ago on a > brief return trip to England she had particularly > asked to meet me because > she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. > We had two quite long > chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple > of Nina's books. > > There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again > and of course there was > no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. > She might have felt shy > to write or follow up herself or might not have been > sufficiently interested > without further direct contact. > > Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news > on this visit as I said. > > I am just so glad now that we have this group so > that I can encourage anyone > to join/read if they have the inclination and also > to be able to refer > people to the web sites. > > It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could > have done more' entirely > forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And > of course the thinking > and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a > prompt to me to make a > little more effort next time, but who knows about > conditions in the future? > > I'd appreciate any further comments. > > It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a > psychiatric centre many, > many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know > well and used to have > discussions with also committed suicide when I was > on sick leave. I felt > perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the > real problem (for me) is > clinging to the view that in some way we are > responsible for others' vipaka > and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power > of kamma and the other > conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to > beings and self at these > times and the inadequate understanding of realities. > > > Sarah > 669 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping dear sarah, I got some more coins so will continue. As you note the conditions are so complex- we can't actaully "make" anyone understand, not even ourselves. Once , during the buddhas time,hundreds of bhikkhus commited suicide who had taken loathsoemness of the body as an object- and they developed it correctly but were led astray by another monk (who was himself led by mara). On other occasions a monk was unable to attain jhana (which he had been able to get before)and cut his own throat. Before he died he went through the stages of vipassana nad attained arahatship. Another monk couldn't bear his painful illness and did the same - even after saripuuta asked him not to. He too attained arahatship. This is not because suicide assists (except as upanissya paacaya) understanding but because they had already fulfilled the requiremnents for enlightenment. Sometimes the Buddh'as words are disturbing to us. I used to worry about the simile of the turtle putting his head through the ring every hundred years. But i was able to use this teaching to see the disadvantage of clinging to self . Ultimately it helped understanding develop. A leader of another sect committed suicide because he couldn't stand the buddha's success. Numerous monks gushed blood and died after the Buddha gave certain teachings that shocked them(while the same teachings was a condtion for other monks to gain deep insight ). Thus even the Budha can't ensure the reactions to his teachings - as you say it is complex. I think We should help people see the advantage of all the buddha's teachings so that they can continue on their studies bravely. It saddens me when I see people lose courage, knowing that if they had continued on they would have got past these difficult times. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear friends, > > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my > age who had committed > suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of > course is mostly > thinking and dosa. > > This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. > A few years ago on a > brief return trip to England she had particularly > asked to meet me because > she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. > We had two quite long > chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple > of Nina's books. > > There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again > and of course there was > no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. > She might have felt shy > to write or follow up herself or might not have been > sufficiently interested > without further direct contact. > > Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news > on this visit as I said. > > I am just so glad now that we have this group so > that I can encourage anyone > to join/read if they have the inclination and also > to be able to refer > people to the web sites. > > It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could > have done more' entirely > forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And > of course the thinking > and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a > prompt to me to make a > little more effort next time, but who knows about > conditions in the future? > > I'd appreciate any further comments. > > It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a > psychiatric centre many, > many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know > well and used to have > discussions with also committed suicide when I was > on sick leave. I felt > perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the > real problem (for me) is > clinging to the view that in some way we are > responsible for others' vipaka > and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power > of kamma and the other > conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to > beings and self at these > times and the inadequate understanding of realities. > > > Sarah > 670 From: Theresa Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 4:10pm Subject: Re: helping and not helping Hello Sarah, << ----- When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had committed suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course is mostly thinking and dosa. -------- >> Do take care of yourself.. << ----- ... There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again ... It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done more' entirely forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of course the thinking and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a prompt to me to make a little more effort next time, but who knows about conditions in the future? ... Perhaps the real problem (for me) is clinging to the view that in some way we are responsible for others' vipaka and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power of kamma and the other conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at these times and the inadequate understanding of realities. -------- >> Kamma is much bigger than each of us.. If Kamma says that one person will receive certain help, s/he will, one way or another.. If Kamma says that one person will not receive help, s/he will not.. If our thoughts and actions are "pawns" to our kammas and those of other people, that is, if we actually see that there is no "I", no "we", no "them" (ie, if we actually experience Anatta from moment to moment), there is no concept of "the help", no helper and no one to receive help.. Each time, I notice that "I help" or that "I" have done something to change or effect something or someone", I notice the inflation of my "self".. Once there is such notice, I then notice an ache, a fear, or a loss, and that's the reaction of a "self" being deflated or fighting back such deflation with fear/ache/Dosa.. When all these things happen, I know that I have not been mindful of myself for some time, and thus, the notices gradually bring my mind back to the present moment.. Clinging ?? Because "self" rules.. Because the direct experience of Anatta is not there in time, in the mind, to help us.. Mindfulness from moment to moment is important.. Seeing the Rise and Fall of aggregates from moment to moment is important.. If Mindfulness and seeing Rise/Fall of aggregates present in the current moment, there is no "I", no others, no action, no suicide, no help, no "I should've", and no "haunted" feeling.. Let us practice Mindfulness as Buddha practiced and taught us to practice.. With metta, Theresa. 671 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 0:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping Dear Robert, I'm glad you found more coins because your answer is very helpful and informative and as usual shows your remarkable reading and memory of the texts! I'm so glad you're checking in with coins in yr pocket! We may think there'll be no time or conditions to post (for you on holiday and for me teaching my busy summer course) but you never know! Last night I was so tired I went to bed very early and then was wide awake at 2a.m. which is a super peaceful time to go into the tiny computer room here and pull out the texts... Thanks again, Sarah We'd still be very interested in any other comments! >dear sarah, >I got some more coins so will continue. As you note >the conditions are so complex- we can't actaully >"make" anyone understand, not even ourselves. >Once , during the buddhas time,hundreds of bhikkhus >commited suicide who had taken loathsoemness of the >body as an object- and they developed it correctly but >were led astray by another monk (who was himself led >by mara). >On other occasions a monk was unable to attain jhana >(which he had been able to get before)and cut his own >throat. Before he died he went through the stages of >vipassana nad attained arahatship. Another monk >couldn't bear his painful illness and did the same - >even after saripuuta asked him not to. He too attained >arahatship. This is not because suicide assists >(except as upanissya paacaya) understanding but >because they had already fulfilled the requiremnents >for enlightenment. >Sometimes the Buddh'as words are disturbing to us. I >used to worry about the simile of the turtle putting >his head through the ring every hundred years. But i >was able to use this teaching to see the disadvantage >of clinging to self . Ultimately it helped >understanding develop. >A leader of another sect committed suicide because he >couldn't stand the buddha's success. Numerous monks >gushed blood and died after the Buddha gave certain >teachings that shocked them(while the same teachings >was a condtion for other monks to gain deep insight ). >Thus even the Budha can't ensure the reactions to his >teachings - as you say it is complex. I think We >should help people see the advantage of all the >buddha's teachings so that they can continue on their >studies bravely. It saddens me when I see people lose >courage, knowing that if they had continued on they >would have got past these difficult times. >Robert > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my > > age who had committed > > suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of > > course is mostly > > thinking and dosa. > > > > This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. > > A few years ago on a > > brief return trip to England she had particularly > > asked to meet me because > > she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. > > We had two quite long > > chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple > > of Nina's books. > > > > There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again > > and of course there was > > no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. > > She might have felt shy > > to write or follow up herself or might not have been > > sufficiently interested > > without further direct contact. > > > > Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news > > on this visit as I said. > > > > I am just so glad now that we have this group so > > that I can encourage anyone > > to join/read if they have the inclination and also > > to be able to refer > > people to the web sites. > > > > It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could > > have done more' entirely > > forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And > > of course the thinking > > and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a > > prompt to me to make a > > little more effort next time, but who knows about > > conditions in the future? > > > > I'd appreciate any further comments. > > > > It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a > > psychiatric centre many, > > many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know > > well and used to have > > discussions with also committed suicide when I was > > on sick leave. I felt > > perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the > > real problem (for me) is > > clinging to the view that in some way we are > > responsible for others' vipaka > > and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power > > of kamma and the other > > conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to > > beings and self at these > > times and the inadequate understanding of realities. > > > > > > Sarah 672 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 0:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section Dear Amara & friends, I still had questions about apo dhatu (water element or liquidity) and so as I just mentioned, i stated pulling out texts in the middle of the night which was a good distraction from work worries whether or not there was much awareness involved! I really have to thank Amara for bringing up this 'unusual' topic of study! What I found particularly helpful was the following quote of Nina's in 'Rupas' from the Vis.: The Visuddhimagga (X!,93) defines the liquid element as follows: ....The water element has the characteristic of trickling, Its function is to intensify. It is manifested as holding together. The element of liquidity of cohesion cannot be experienced through the bodysense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call water it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be experienced through the bodysense, not cohesion. Whatever kind of materiality arises, cohesion has to arise together with it. It holds together the other rupas it accompanies so that they do not get scattered.... I'm sure I must have heard it many times, but i had not fully appreciated that apo dhatu (like space element) cannot be known through the bodysense. No wonder there is no awareness of it! This is a great relief to me! Really, there can only ever be intellectual understanding of these realities. Sarah > >Apo is a chatu at the base of all rupa, which means that all that >you experience other than the nama are made up of apo. The >characteristics are best manifested in water, which bathes and >saturates things like sponges and our very own bodies can be bathed >on the outside as well as by all the liquid saturating all the >cells. On the other hand things like an iron bar can be made to >show the characteristics of liquidity by melting them down so that >it can also bath and saturate and be molded into different shapes. >Gasses can also take liquid form, showing the characters of apo, of >which it is also composed. Therefore if you equate apo with water >you might be confused to find that there are none in an iron bar or >dry ice when in fact all non-nama elements are based on apo as one >of the indivisible 8 rupa of the smallest kalapa, which no rupa is >without. > > > > p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find >the new > > section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct >me, >thanks! > >For the new series, go to and click on >the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where >there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined >text 'A Few Words'. I have just made some corrections because I gave >the wrong credits and links for the background!!! Enjoy, > >Amara > 673 From: amara chay Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:29pm Subject: Re: helping and not helping > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had committed > suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course is mostly > thinking and dosa. Sarah, I think Robert wrote some great answers and Theresa made some good points, although when she said, 'there is no concept of "the help", no helper and no one to receive help.' that is incorrect because everything that touches our lives except at moments of sati or panna are concepts, we all live in a world of pannati, so if the idea of help, helper of the helped exists, it is here, as thoughts, memories and concepts. I would like to talk about another aspect: yesterday while you were enjoying the 'dosa' I was probably attending the second of two funerals of dhamma friends. It was a strange atmosphere, with the bhikku rushing through the recitals that repeated the same verses about kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyagata dhamma, etc. to end with the 24 paccaya enumerated to the rythm of an express train, after which they talked among themselves until the next recital of the very same verses, four times, and probably without the slightest comprehension of what they were saying, or that what they were repeating were the Buddha's words that could enlighten them if they understood to realize the meanings. What really affected me was that the person the departed friend left behind was a crippled old lady who had just had a bad fall and hit her head, so that she was unable to get up after she offered tributes to the bhikkhu, and was there on the floor weeping helplessly, who now has to continue without her benefactor. Someone remarked that her kamma (as usual intending her vipaka) was not over yet. Luckily they were both students of Khun Sujin's, and have never stopped listening to her even after their health kept them from attending discussions in person. Still I found that for me of the four brahma-vihara, upekkha is the hardest in daily life, I seem to have no problem with metta (friendliness without expecting anything in return, not even familiarity), karuna (helping those in need of assistance), and mudita (being happy with other's good fortunes). My big problem is upekkha, being indifferent to others when none of the above is applicable. It is true that yesterday was a busy day for me and I had to get up quite early to attend the first funeral where Khun Sujin held a good dhamma discussion before the offering of food to the bhikku because the person who passed away and his entire family listened to her teachings, and one of the sons is one of the foundation's lecturers. After the bhikkhu who recited the texts left (the recitals were not repetitive but one of the bhikkhu in front of the microphone kept making throaty humming sounds, uninteligible as words, that is a sort of poor imitation of the Tibetan recital, that was new to us), the head of the wat gave a 'sermon' with no regards to the abhidhamma at all, for example he said that the body dies and not the mind, which lives on! Again the decline of Buddhism is really disheartening to see. During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was studying, about nutrition, which might interest those who study the abhidhamma: there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the digestion of food taken by eating and swollowing, or the kavalinkalahara, and utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a fetus in a womb or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person receiving vitamins from the sunlight. In the comentaries, if I remember correctly, the food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat, instead of just temperature) to turn it into oja. Her question was whether the food absorbed in other ways required heat to digest, which we for the most part thought not. (Please comment and I will inform her accordingly, everyone interested.) By the way I think there was a passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme fasting before his enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva put nutrition in his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as for several kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed through osmosis. Here she also asked if such foods need to be digested, and therefore require utu before being used by the body. Personally I think it depends on the food as well as the organism receiving it. I doubt the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring what little energy he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms, and some worms in the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources, live mouthless and stomachless, obviously not needing kavalinkalahara, might require some sort of heat source, either internal or external, to digest whatever nutrition they get from their surroundings. Again, according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth requires utu to digest, so we might assume that they do not. Also, can anyone remember how different levels of deva take their nutrition? After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at the foundation, during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka citta, among other things, and after dinner we went to the second funeral. For me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very good time discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were very disturbing to say the least. But as we took her and her sister home, she said, today we all performed much kusala, all day long. I was a bit tired because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I could anumodana with her panna in studying both the kusala and akusala interposing throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it all, because panna can arise to know any kind of aramana, pleasant or unpleasant, and accumulate still more panna, and therefore kusala, from anything that presented itself. I guess my point is that even when thinking of something sad or that we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when there is sati knowing realities as they really are, as not the self and related objects and beings. We really suffer because we still are attached to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as stories and events because of our memories, whereas they only appear through the six dvara and then are gone completely. All we can do is the best we can at a given moment, and study to know the true characteristics of realities we experience as much as we can. And turn to the four brahma-vihara as much as we can so we might someday be able to say, 'today we performed kusala all day' too, and be more truthful than I could yesterday, although I think I also did the best I could! I still need to study so much more to be able to see that upekkha is only natural if we had no preferences for what is to be experienced through the five dvara. This is probably more information than needed, I didn't intend to write such a lengthy report! Hope you find something useful, Sarah, Amara > This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. A few years ago on a > brief return trip to England she had particularly asked to meet me because > she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. We had two quite long > chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple of Nina's books. > > There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again and of course there was > no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. She might have felt shy > to write or follow up herself or might not have been sufficiently interested > without further direct contact. > > Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news on this visit as I said. > > I am just so glad now that we have this group so that I can encourage anyone > to join/read if they have the inclination and also to be able to refer > people to the web sites. > > It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done more' entirely > forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of course the thinking > and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a prompt to me to make a > little more effort next time, but who knows about conditions in the future? > > I'd appreciate any further comments. > > It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a psychiatric centre many, > many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know well and used to have > discussions with also committed suicide when I was on sick leave. I felt > perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the real problem (for me) is > clinging to the view that in some way we are responsible for others' vipaka > and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power of kamma and the other > conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at these > times and the inadequate understanding of realities. > > > Sarah > 674 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 9:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping Dear amara, A very interesting report. the details make it come alive - I can really paicture it now. I don't , though,dare to guess the answers to your abhidhamma questions. Thanks alot Roberet > > During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was > studying, about > nutrition, which might interest those who study the > abhidhamma: > there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the > digestion of food > taken by eating and swollowing, or the > kavalinkalahara, and > utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a > fetus in a womb > or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person > receiving vitamins > from the sunlight. In the comentaries, if I > remember correctly, the > food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat, > instead of just > temperature) to turn it into oja. Her question was > whether the food > absorbed in other ways required heat to digest, > which we for the > most part thought not. (Please comment and I will > inform her > accordingly, everyone interested.) By the way I > think there was a > passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme > fasting before his > enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva > put nutrition in > his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as > for several > kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed > through osmosis. > Here she also asked if such foods need to be > digested, and therefore > require utu before being used by the body. > Personally I think it > depends on the food as well as the organism > receiving it. I doubt > the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring > what little energy > he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms, > and some worms in > the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources, > live mouthless > and stomachless, obviously not needing > kavalinkalahara, might > require some sort of heat source, either internal or > external, to > digest whatever nutrition they get from their > surroundings. Again, > according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth > requires utu to > digest, so we might assume that they do not. Also, > can anyone > remember how different levels of deva take their > nutrition? > > After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at > the foundation, > during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka > citta, among > other things, and after dinner we went to the second > funeral. For > me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very > good time > discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were > very disturbing to > say the least. But as we took her and her sister > home, she said, > today we all performed much kusala, all day long. I > was a bit tired > because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I > could anumodana > with her panna in studying both the kusala and > akusala interposing > throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it > all, because > panna can arise to know any kind of aramana, > pleasant or unpleasant, > and accumulate still more panna, and therefore > kusala, from anything > that presented itself. > > I guess my point is that even when thinking of > something sad or that > we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when > there is sati > knowing realities as they really are, as not the > self and related > objects and beings. We really suffer because we > still are attached > to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as > stories and events > because of our memories, whereas they only appear > through the six > dvara and then are gone completely. All we can do > is the best we > can at a given moment, and study to know the true > characteristics === message truncated === 675 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 1, 2000 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping Amara, A great message. What a day you have described! It reminds me very much of some of my early days in Bangkok - fascinating dhamma discussion in unusual situations, long days either in searing heat or thunderstorm. So much akusala vipaka through the body door, yet so much kusala vipaka through the ear door (this for me is Bangkok in a single sentence). And definitely, by any other standard, days full of kusala. Despite the trying conditions, my reaction when reading your message was one of, yes, envy (and nostalgia - an interesting reality that, a real mixture of attachment and regret, so loads of akusala there, too). Thank you very much for sharing it. I will try to respond later to some of the points you have raised (no ideas off the top of my head). Jonothan PS Will respond to your message about the screen problem off-list. 676 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping Dear Amara, this was a really interesting account of a day in the life of.... You went to more funderals in one day than I've been to in the last ten years! By conditions and not because I avoid them. Excellent opportunities for maranasati for a start! I appreciated yr comments about uppekkha(equanimity, detachment). Like for you, this is a very wholesome cetasika, a brahma vihara, that does not develop easily for me! Still it's very useful to know at least theoretically at these times how valuable it is and how useless are the feelings of sadness. And of course wanting more uppekkha, trying to have it, thinking we should have it is quite useless and different from understanding the value of it as you discuss. I laughed at the part about the recital of the 24paccaya to the rhythm of the express train. Yes, it's not a matter of knowing the lists. I found myself briefly envying your opportunity to hear so much dhamma in a day before I reminded myself that the seeing and the visible object are just as real in my classroom or while I'm eating my 'dosa'..we don't need to wait for the dhamma discussion! You mentioned the decline of Buddhism. K.Sujin mentioned that this was very apparent on the last trip to India. I think it urges us all to help as we can, while we can and to keep debeloping more understanding. With regard to yr qu about utujarupa (food absorption not via the mouth) and whether it requires heat. This is just conventional amateur guesswork and not abhidhamma knowledge on my part. One knows that nutrients and foods can be absorbed thr' the skin and that the skin is in fact the biggest organ of the body. Jonothan, for example, has been applying special nuturients in a cream onto his leg with the tumour. I would expect that internal body heat would be essential for these nutrients to be absorbed. I doubt they would have effect on a half-dead body lying in the snow....and for an i.v.drip, I would think the body temperature would play a big part. But this is conjecture and I'd probably be wiser to leave this one! Rosan may provide the medical knowledge, but maybe I'm missing the point! Yes, we really live in a world of concepts...my friend's suicide is yet another story. However, as you rightly pointed out to Theresa, it's not a matter of not living in a world of concepts and it's not a matter of not thinking about stories any more. It's a matter of developing understanding of the realities that appear and knowing the concepts as concepts! There are always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad' rather than the story! many thanks to you, Robert and Theresa for all yr helpful comments. Sarah >I think Robert wrote some great answers and Theresa made some >good points, although when she said, 'there is no concept of "the >help", no helper and no one to receive help.' that is incorrect >because everything that touches our lives except at moments of sati >or panna are concepts, we all live in a world of pannati, so if the >idea of help, helper of the helped exists, it is here, as thoughts, >memories and concepts. > >I would like to talk about another aspect: yesterday while you were >enjoying the 'dosa' I was probably attending the second of two >funerals of dhamma friends. It was a strange atmosphere, with the >bhikku rushing through the recitals that repeated the same verses >about kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyagata dhamma, etc. to end >with the 24 paccaya enumerated to the rythm of an express train, >after which they talked among themselves until the next recital of >the very same verses, four times, and probably without the slightest >comprehension of what they were saying, or that what they were >repeating were the Buddha's words that could enlighten them if they >understood to realize the meanings. What really affected me was >that the person the departed friend left behind was a crippled old >lady who had just had a bad fall and hit her head, so that she was >unable to get up after she offered tributes to the bhikkhu, and was >there on the floor weeping helplessly, who now has to continue >without her benefactor. Someone remarked that her kamma (as usual >intending her vipaka) was not over yet. Luckily they were both >students of Khun Sujin's, and have never stopped listening to her >even after their health kept them from attending discussions in >person. Still I found that for me of the four brahma-vihara, >upekkha is the hardest in daily life, I seem to have no problem with >metta (friendliness without expecting anything in return, not even >familiarity), karuna (helping those in need of assistance), and >mudita (being happy with other's good fortunes). My big problem is >upekkha, being indifferent to others when none of the above is >applicable. > >It is true that yesterday was a busy day for me and I had to get up >quite early to attend the first funeral where Khun Sujin held a good >dhamma discussion before the offering of food to the bhikku because >the person who passed away and his entire family listened to her >teachings, and one of the sons is one of the foundation's lecturers. >After the bhikkhu who recited the texts left (the recitals were not >repetitive but one of the bhikkhu in front of the microphone kept >making throaty humming sounds, uninteligible as words, that is a >sort of poor imitation of the Tibetan recital, that was new to us), > the head of the wat gave a 'sermon' with no regards to the >abhidhamma at all, for example he said that the body dies and not >the mind, which lives on! Again the decline of Buddhism is really >disheartening to see. > >During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was studying, about >nutrition, which might interest those who study the abhidhamma: >there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the digestion of food >taken by eating and swollowing, or the kavalinkalahara, and >utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a fetus in a womb >or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person receiving vitamins >from the sunlight. In the comentaries, if I remember correctly, the >food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat, instead of just >temperature) to turn it into oja. Her question was whether the food >absorbed in other ways required heat to digest, which we for the >most part thought not. (Please comment and I will inform her >accordingly, everyone interested.) By the way I think there was a >passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme fasting before his >enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva put nutrition in >his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as for several >kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed through osmosis. >Here she also asked if such foods need to be digested, and therefore >require utu before being used by the body. Personally I think it >depends on the food as well as the organism receiving it. I doubt >the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring what little energy >he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms, and some worms in >the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources, live mouthless >and stomachless, obviously not needing kavalinkalahara, might >require some sort of heat source, either internal or external, to >digest whatever nutrition they get from their surroundings. Again, >according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth requires utu to >digest, so we might assume that they do not. Also, can anyone >remember how different levels of deva take their nutrition? > >After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at the foundation, >during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka citta, among >other things, and after dinner we went to the second funeral. For >me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very good time >discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were very disturbing to >say the least. But as we took her and her sister home, she said, >today we all performed much kusala, all day long. I was a bit tired >because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I could anumodana >with her panna in studying both the kusala and akusala interposing >throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it all, because >panna can arise to know any kind of aramana, pleasant or unpleasant, >and accumulate still more panna, and therefore kusala, from anything >that presented itself. > >I guess my point is that even when thinking of something sad or that >we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when there is sati >knowing realities as they really are, as not the self and related >objects and beings. We really suffer because we still are attached >to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as stories and events >because of our memories, whereas they only appear through the six >dvara and then are gone completely. All we can do is the best we >can at a given moment, and study to know the true characteristics of >realities we experience as much as we can. And turn to the four >brahma-vihara as much as we can so we might someday be able to say, >'today we performed kusala all day' too, and be more truthful than I >could yesterday, although I think I also did the best I could! I >still need to study so much more to be able to see that upekkha is >only natural if we had no preferences for what is to be experienced >through the five dvara. > >This is probably more information than needed, I didn't intend to >write such a lengthy report! Hope you find something useful, Sarah, > >Amara > > > > 677 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 9:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping >There are >always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad' >rather than the story! Unless of course it's a masala dosa (ie the Indian kind), although come to think of it, i've had some sad-looking masala dosa's in my time. 678 From: shinlin Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping Dear Jonothan, First, I would like to thank you for the advise you have sent me. Yes, what you said is correct. At the time, my intensions was to only provide the Paccaya informations and if we want to talk about it, it will really take some time. Lastly, I would like to say that the suicide story is a tragic. BUT this is all accumulations. It may be that her pervious life, she did the same thing. And at that moment, it was only strong Akusula citta, accumulated from Upanisayya Paccaya, that cause the action to come about. So therefore we have to know the rise and fall of dhamma, and eventually there will be restraint from the Akusula kamma automatically. Therefore if the accumulations of not hearding the Truth of what dhamma is then, the cycle rolls on. So DOSA is not sad, it is the out come that is bad or not good result that is all. with metta, Shin -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: 3 ÊÔ§ËÒ¤Á 2543 9:08 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping >>There are >>always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad' >>rather than the story! > >Unless of course it's a masala dosa (ie the Indian kind), although come to >think of it, i've had some sad-looking masala dosa's in my time. 679 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 4, 2000 6:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping Dear Shin, I agree with your useful comments and yes we need to hear the dhamma a LOT because of our wrong view and akusala (unwholesome) accumulations developed over so many, many lifetimes. Dosa is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling and thus it is sad in this sense. Actually we could say all akusala is sad in the sense that it isn't kusala and at these moments we're accumulating more akusala... Without akusala cetanas (unwholesome intentions) there would be no akusala vipaka (unwholesome results). No one, not even the Buddha can avoid these results (as we've discussed recently on the list), so it's the accumulations and the deeds that are the problem!. Actually I think dosa is sad in two ways, firstly because of the unpleasant feeling and secondly because at the moment of dosa it's accumulating more dosa and at times is strong enough to work with the cetana for the cetana to be akusala kammapatha....! The point was meant to be that we think we hear a sad or trajic story or go to a sad funeral, but really the sadness or aversion is just the dosa when we think about the story at that time. I remember so well when we went to Alan Driver's funeral in Thailand. I arrived quite upset but when I saw khun Sujin smiling and talking about the dhamma and plucking lillies it was impossible to go on feeling sad and of course quite useless....'who are you upset for?' she asked me....and the answer was not for Alan but for myself! Thanks for yr comments, Sarah >Dear Jonothan, > First, I would like to thank you for the advise you have sent me. Yes, >what you said is correct. At the time, my intensions was to only provide >the >Paccaya informations and if we want to talk about it, it will really take >some time. > Lastly, I would like to say that the suicide story is a tragic. BUT >this >is all accumulations. It may be that her pervious life, she did the same >thing. And at that moment, it was only strong Akusula citta, accumulated >from Upanisayya Paccaya, that cause the action to come about. So therefore >we have to know the rise and fall of dhamma, and eventually there will be >restraint from the Akusula kamma automatically. Therefore if the >accumulations of not hearding the Truth of what dhamma is then, the cycle >rolls on. So DOSA is not sad, it is the out come that is bad or not good >result that is all. >with metta, >Shin 680 From: amara chay Date: Fri Aug 4, 2000 11:46am Subject: forwarded message Dear friends in the dhamma, I would like to share some news from the Venerable Heng Shun, whom I hope we will soon be hearing from again on the list postings. Here is an excerpt of his note: Amara, Thanks for your note. I'm still at Harvard, but will be finishing the program very soon. Your note to Zhao Ging-Guo was very good. I do look forward to seeing the published version of your translation of Khun Sujin's magnu opus on Paramattha Dhammas. (...) Our teacher, Professor Diana Eck, is kind of the Diane Sawyer of world religions here in America- all of us high school teachers of world religions have learned quite a lot. We've also seen much of Boston in our dozen plus field trips to religious centers in the area, including a Hindu Temple built from the ground up and a mosque- both of these were created by immigrant communities from South Asia. I was also able to pay my respects to MahaGoshananda at his Cambodian temple (identical to the Wats in Thailand) built in the countryside 2 hours drive west of Boston in the forest. America's religious landscape is changing quite dramatically. (...) Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun From: "amara chay" Subject: guestbook entry Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:46:38 GMT Venerable sir, I just wanted to share with you our first guest book entry from China! And also the fact that placed us fourth in the top score list (although I wonder how the scoring works and the total number of websites in the list searching the word 'dhamma'). I just checked this afternoon- before when you first told me about this search engine we were in the top half of the list only! By the way my mother has pledged 100,000 bhts. (which is hardly as much as it looks!) towards the printing of the English 'Summary', which should be ready early next year- I remember your asking about it on the list. (...) How was your stay at Harvard? The intensive course must be very interesting indeed. (...) I look forward to hearing from you soon, especially on the list, Amara 681 From: amara chay Date: Sat Aug 5, 2000 9:28pm Subject: Date of DSSFB English discussion changed Dear DSSFBED Group, Tan Ajaan has just told me that the discussion scheduled for Wed. 9th has been postponed to the next day, Th. 10th at 4pm. Hope everyone sees this, please tell your friends, Amara 682 From: amara chay Date: Sat Aug 5, 2000 10:08pm Subject: new pages Dear All, Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at , which should really be called 'Varee's Choices' but she wouldn't let me. Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning', Amara 683 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2000 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new pages >Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at >, which should really be called 'Varee's >Choices' but she wouldn't let me. >Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning', Amara, I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other members may appreciate it too. I hope you don't mind me posting an abbreviated version of your translation for the list. Here it is: We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it falls away. There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for future visits of relatives and friends as well. We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. [ends] May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as pleasant objects come visiting! Jonothan 684 From: amara chay Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:58am Subject: Dear friends in the dhamma, We have been receiving letters and comments from people having apprehensions or reservations about learning the Pali terms in order to understand the dhamma, so we thought our answer to a recent letter might help others who have the same problems. This is in the Q&A4 of the section Q&A in , just up today. As always, please comment, your feedback is very valuable to us, Amara 685 From: amara chay Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 11:37am Subject: maps Dear friends in the dhamma, As it is a bit difficult even for Bkk people to find the DSSF building, Sarita Walsh has sent us two maps which you can print out if you wish to visit it. You can find them at DSSFB Schedules, click on "for area map 'click here'". Great work and thanks, Sarita! Amara 686 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 4:13pm Subject: Buddhism in Bali I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina today. I had visited the last time I was in bali and given the head monk a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily life. He knew all about Nina from when Lodewijk was ambassador here and had already read several of her books. He teaches mahasi method and there were a few subjects walking around slowly. He was ordained in Wat Bowoniwet in Bangkok. (For those who don't know this is where the head monk of thailmnd , the Sanghraja stays and is where the King of thailand is ordained before becoming King). Now he is 75years but still in good health and speaks good English. Today I gave him the new book by Sujin which he was very glad to get. He used to listen to acharn Sujin on her weekly talks at Wat Bovorn. He said that I was welcome to stay at the temple and I replied that Mahasi style is a different from my own. "Yes, I know " he said- "daily life meditation. I learnt this from Acharn Sujin and also from another Monk at wat Bovorn who studied with acharn sujin. Very good." Naturally I warmed to this; he is not the usual fanatical meditation practioner. (last time I was there he said his time in Burma meditating was like being in prison) By chance the president of the Bali theravada association was visiting and the monk introduced us. So we all discussed getting books by Nina and Acharn Sujin translated into Bahasa for general distribution. The monk is highly keen on this as he knows the importance of Abhidhamma. They said part of Ninas book has already been translated but more should be done. (the president knew of Nina also). I have addresses now and we will keep in touch. I think The DSSF should look into some funding in this area. The Bali and Java Theravda societies are in close contact and so we could help many people with translations. T At the end the president said that I should consider becoming a monk and living in Indonesia. Don't laugh, I sometimes have such inclinations. Anyway I took it as an auspicious sign. Robert 687 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 4:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali Robert, Thanks for the interesting post. My first visit to a Buddhist temple was to a temple in Bali just outside Singharaja where the head monk was Balinese. I subsequently came across other Indonesian monks in Java and Bangkok. There is (was) quite a bit of interest in Indonesia, and I agree that translation of materials would probably be appreciated. Jonothan 688 From: amara chay Date: Sun Aug 13, 2000 1:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali >I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina today. >I had visited the last time I was in bali and given >the head monk a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily life. He >knew all about Nina from when Lodewijk was ambassador >here and had already read several of her books. >He teaches mahasi method and there were a few subjects >walking around slowly. I had no idea there were Buddhist temples in Bali! I did visit the Borobudur but they never took us to any temples with monks, just the Balinese palace-temples, Hindu temples and such. I do know of some buddhist temples in Jakarta but how many percents of Indonesians are Buddhist, I wonder? Do the Chinese comunities have Mahayana temples? >He was ordained in Wat Bowoniwet in Bangkok. (For >those who don't know this is where the head monk of >thailmnd , the Sanghraja stays and is where the King >of thailand is ordained before becoming King). Actually the present king was already crowned and married when he became ordained for a short period of time, during which the Queen was regent, Robert. But this is such a minor point. Now he >is 75years but still in good health and speaks good >English. Today I gave him the new book by Sujin which >he was very glad to get. He used to listen to acharn >Sujin on her weekly talks at Wat Bovorn. He said that >I was welcome to stay at the temple and I replied that >Mahasi style is a different from my own. "Yes, I know >" he said- "daily life meditation. I learnt this from >Acharn Sujin and also from another Monk at wat Bovorn >who studied with acharn sujin. Very good." >Naturally I warmed to this; he is not the usual >fanatical meditation practioner. (last time I was >there he said his time in Burma meditating was like >being in prison) > >By chance the president of the Bali theravada >association was visiting and the monk introduced us. >So we all discussed getting books by Nina and Acharn >Sujin translated into Bahasa for general distribution. >The monk is highly keen on this as he knows the >importance of Abhidhamma. They said part of Ninas book >has already been translated but more should be done. >(the president knew of Nina also). >I have addresses now and we will keep in touch. I >think The DSSF should look into some funding in this >area. The Bali and Java Theravda societies are in >close contact and so we could help many people with >translations. T This is really great news, I suggest you speak to K.s Sujin and Duangduen about this when you come! The main problem in translations is of course to find someone with enough understanding of the dhamma as well as the language, but even a poor translation is better than none, I think. Is Bahasi the same as Jakarta Indonesian? Do they have the same alphabets? Sorry about my great ignorance, to think my first cousin was the Thai Ambassador there for a few years! > >At the end the president said that I should consider >becoming a monk and living in Indonesia. Don't laugh, >I sometimes have such inclinations. >Anyway I took it as an auspicious sign. > >Robert Sounds like you did a good job as ambassador of Buddhism as well, thanks for sharing, and anumodana, Amara 689 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Aug 13, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali same temple as the one I went to Jonathon. The monk you met might have been different though. There were two who have have been monks for many years in Bali .THERE was a tallone who died three years ago and the one I met (I have his name written somewhere but can't remember right now). They also mentioned that there is an well-known Abhidhamma teacher in Java who studied in thailand and who speaks good Thai but not English. He uses some of the translation of Ninas Abhidhamma in DAily life. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert, > > Thanks for the interesting post. My first visit to > a Buddhist temple was to > a temple in Bali just outside Singharaja where the > head monk was Balinese. > I subsequently came across other Indonesian monks in > Java and Bangkok. > There is (was) quite a bit of interest in Indonesia, > and I agree that > translation of materials would probably be > appreciated. > > Jonothan > > 690 From: amara chay Date: Thu Aug 17, 2000 1:40am Subject: Copernic2000.com Dear friends in the dhamma, Some incredible news: the search engine Copernic2000 has placed us first in top scores on the list seaching the word 'dhamma' this morning, (thanks to Nong Lan for waking me up with such wonderful news!) and I have uploaded a new page in its own section, in the index page at , click on 'The Webmaster Thanks'. Over 90% of the backgrounds used on our site are from free sites on the web, as are most of the other components, although the most precious part, the dhamma, is from the Buddha and unique in the world. Together the combination has proven a real winner! Amara 691 From: amara chay Date: Thu Aug 17, 2000 11:35am Subject: Sarita's map Dear all, My apologies for a map mix-up, the ones already loaded are by another lady and Sarita has sent another one for black and white printouts for practical purposes. Go to the same DSSFB Schedules page at and click on (For b/w map click here), Amara 692 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 18, 2000 1:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] unwelcome visitors Dear Jonothan & friends, there is a lot to consider in this delightful passage. Of course the problem is not the kusala vipaka, the pleasant and unpleasant object appearing through the doorways, but the akusala (unwholesome) reactions to the visitors. By calling these visitors welcome and unwelcome guests or robbers, does it not suggest something inherently 'bad' about them when in fact the problem lies in the lack of detachment and understanding of these 'visitors'? In other words it is the akusala cittas (unwholesome mental states) that 'turns' the visitors into welcome and unwelcome ones. This is explained below, but one has to consider and read it carefully. Any other comments? Sarah >I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other >members may appreciate it too. I hope you don't mind me posting an >abbreviated version of your translation for the list. Here it is: > > >We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that >appear >through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. > >When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every >sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or >body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before >it >falls away. > >There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite >relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company >enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. > >Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate >with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. >When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the >sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is >there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma >(unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the >other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative >or >friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. > >The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the >sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while >wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for >future visits of relatives and friends as well. > >We should know the characteristics of the different moments of >consciousness >(citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. >[ends] > >May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as >pleasant objects come visiting! > >Jonothan 693 From: amara chay Date: Sun Aug 20, 2000 10:04pm Subject: New article. Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just finished uploading a slightly abrieviated translation of a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma Discussion at Wat Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by bhikkhus at a convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of vipassana. This is in the advanced section, . Thank you in advance for your feedbacks, Amara 694 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article. dear amara, great to see the new book. It should have a brief intoduction expalining where the discussion was, who was present and so on. Is the translation only on the internet or is it taken from an english book? Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > I have just finished uploading a slightly > abrieviated translation of > a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma > Discussion at Wat > Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by > bhikkhus at a > convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of > vipassana. This is in > the advanced section, . > Thank you in > advance for your feedbacks, > > Amara > > 695 From: amara chay Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article. >great to see the new book. It should have a brief >intoduction expalining where the discussion was, who >was present and so on. Is the translation only on the >internet or is it taken from an english book? Dear Robert, The internet version is my own translation of the book, which is slightly longer, I had cut out all of what another lecturer said (the original book is about 75pp. long and I translated about 60 pp.). The book itself had no introduction but from what Khun Sujin told me, there was a convention of vipassanachara with 200 Bhikkhus attending, and the organisers, I think from the Rajapatana Institution, invited her to speak during a session. (I just called her and she is having a massage but will give me the phone no. of the person who invited her to me later- if she finds it! But says the person is very hard to contact but sees her regularly when she goes to Kaeng Krachan, which she will be doing tomorrow.) I will send you more information if and when I get it, (depending on conditions!) Amara 696 From: amara chay Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 0:09pm Subject: Re: New article. Dear Betty, I'm so glad you enjoyed both the discussion and the article, and by the way did you know that there can be enjoyment that is not lobha, though they generally arise together? It is the chanda cetasika, being pleased or content or preferring to do something over another, while lobha is always akusala and clinging to something, desiring to have or to be. Chanda can also arise with akusala, but it can also arise with sobhana, when one enjoys doing something good, and with kusala citta without attachment. But of course they can all alternately arise, and lobha can be attached to anything, including the dhamma. I have tried to fix the background, by the way, could you check if it is any better? Please remember to click reload/refresh, Amara 697 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 5:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New article. Dear Betty & Amara Betty, I don't think we received your comments about the article here...it would be good to hear your comments and to hear what you are enjoying or finding interesting in the discussions. Any summary of the topics of discussion would also be interesting! I think moments of kusala chanda (wholesome 'wish to do' or 'enthusiasm') are very few and far between for most of us. Even with regard to our dhamma studies, the akusala cetasikas(unwholesome mental states) totally outdo the kusala (wholesome) ones like weeds overwhelming a rare orchid. When I think of 'enjoyment' it is always associated with lobha (attachment). But then the same applies to our common understanding of enthusiasm. Perhaps this shows how few moments of chanda there are in a day when we can't even find a good translation. One thing though is that at moments of chanda the citta (consciousness) is calm and not agitated as it usually is with enjoyment and enthusiam. (But then what we take for calm is usually attachment too!) Looking forward to hearing more about other experiences of chanda! Sarah >Dear Betty, > >I'm so glad you enjoyed both the discussion and the article, and by the way >did you know that there can be enjoyment that is not lobha, though they >generally arise together? It is the chanda cetasika, being pleased or >content or preferring to do something over another, while lobha is always >akusala and clinging to something, desiring to have or to be. Chanda can >also arise with akusala, but it can also arise with sobhana, when one >enjoys >doing something good, and with kusala citta without attachment. But of >course they can all alternately arise, and lobha can be attached to >anything, including the dhamma. > >I have tried to fix the background, by the way, could you check if it is >any >better? Please remember to click reload/refresh, > >Amara 698 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 5:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article. Dear Amara, I really admire all your hard work. It must have been an interesting discussion and very useful for any of the monks who were able to appreciate what Khun Sujin was saying. When I finish my really busy summer teaching next Saturday, I will take the translation to Sydney with us and study in more detail. just 2 comments for now: 1. for me, the less background and artwork the better as this would make access quicker and make it easier to read (also less paper when printed out!) Others may prefer more artwork! 2. Sometimes you use rather archaic English words like 'beneficient' which are not used in conversation and which someone like Khun Sujin never uses.... I'd hate to do anything other than encourage you with the translation work, but it should 'flow'! Thanks for keeping us informed and encouraging us to access the site regularly. Recently I have had several experiences of being in situations or in a group when someone has been expounding on the value of vipassana meditation and often going into detail of their 10 day course or whatever. On each occasion the comments have not been specifically addressed to me and others have asked questions and taken interest. Often I've just had dosa (aversion) and not been able to make any useful contribution and not known how to 'deal' with the situation. It's funny..it's a 'situation' I used to be in often 25yrs ago and now again. One thing for sure, the aversion doesn't help! Any practical suggestions would be appreciated! Sarah > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >I have just finished uploading a slightly abrieviated translation of >a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma Discussion at Wat >Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by bhikkhus at a >convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of vipassana. This is in >the advanced section, . Thank you in >advance for your feedbacks, > >Amara > 699 From: amara chay Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 10:47am Subject: Re: New article. > 1. for me, the less background and artwork the better as this would make > access quicker and make it easier to read (also less paper when printed > out!) Others may prefer more artwork! Sarah, Point well taken, I try to keep a balance between the two, as you say, some people do enjoy the artwork and told me that they are proud we are using the best the web has to offer, as well as the fact that the font is so large that it makes it easier to read. I have to make a choice, however, between making it easier to read on screen or to print out, and I have opted for the former, as that is the main purpose which may or may not lead to the print-out. So for people who do print out may I suggest you 1.) Save the passage to be printed, or in the case of a short passage, use the 'edit' click and then choose the 'select all', and then save onto your own machine, and 2.) Reformat it as you wish, this will get rid of all the backgrounds and save paper as well as give you the print size you are accustomed to. I have also added the screen resolution we use, which is the medium one, to the bottom of the front page of the site, so our regular visitors could adjust to the pages for the perfect fit. > 2. Sometimes you use rather archaic English words like 'beneficient' which > are not used in conversation and which someone like Khun Sujin never > uses.... I'd hate to do anything other than encourage you with the > translation work, but it should 'flow'! I wouldn't say that I love criticism, but I appreciate it from people whom I know are well intended, in which case I really welcome them, at least from this group. Having said that, I must explain that you may be used to Khun Sujin's English, which is absolutely nothing compared to her other talents and her absolute mastery of the dhamma, and her proficiency in Pali and Thai terms, which are far from simple, since the dhamma is so intricate. How would you say for example 'prayod soong sud' which literally translate as 'the highest usefulness'? Doesn't 'the greatest beneficence' sound a lot better? Not to mention the archaic Thai in the Tipitaka about which I had to rely on Varee's help to even understand!!! > Thanks for keeping us informed and encouraging us to access the site > regularly. > > Recently I have had several experiences of being in situations or in a > group when someone has been expounding on the value of vipassana meditation > and often going into detail of their 10 day course or whatever. On each > occasion the comments have not been specifically addressed to me and others > have asked questions and taken interest. Often I've just had dosa (aversion) > and not been able to make any useful contribution and not known how to > 'deal' with the situation. It's funny..it's a 'situation' I used to be in > often 25yrs ago and now again. One thing for sure, the aversion doesn't > help! Any practical suggestions would be appreciated! > > Sarah Reading 'Wangtagu' might help a little, as Khun Sujin was speaking to hundreds of monks who were supposed to teach vipassana, and who probably had no idea what it was all about! All we can do in a given situation is the best we can, maybe we sould ask them if they were interestedin what we think of the matter, and if they were, try to tell them about it, if they are not, perhaps remind ourselves that all are dhamma, even the sound of their voices! Amara 700 From: amara chay Date: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:36pm Subject: Newsletter7 Dear all, My apologies for an almost late newsletter, about a discussion trip to Rayong, which I was faxed a few days ago and then completely forgot. Anyone in the area is welcome to join. Robert, too bad you are arriving a day or two too late. Details in the newsletter section, , just up. Amara 701 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 24, 2000 9:31pm Subject: Unpleasant objects and determination I was struck by a passage from ‘Cetasikas’ by Nina van Gorkom which I have been reading. Most of us have difficulty having any level of useful reflection when we are in unpleasant circumstances. Nina makes the point that this is because of a lack of determination on our part. We are so easily deflected from the goal. We forget that the unpleasantness we are experiencing is vipaka which has been conditioned by kamma, and that it is no use wishing it was otherwise. If on the other hand we were able to reflect usefully at such moments there would be less inclination to try and exert influence over the realities that appear, and consequently more patience and more determination to develop right understanding in whatever situation. ‘Determination’ here does not of course mean determination in the conventional sense of the word, that can be summoned up by the exercise of willpower. It means the wholesome quality that enables a person to pursue the goal of right understanding in the face of all manner of obstacles and difficulties. It is a quality that grows through the development of mindfulness. Thought for the day. Jonothan 702 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 26, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Unpleasant objects and determination >I would have thought it would have arisen from lack of understanding rather >than determination. What cetasika are you referring to, in the original >Pali, may I ask? Amara, An interesting question. As I understand it, not all wholesome qualities are identified by reference to a particular cetasika that performs the function of that quality exclusively. Khanti (patience) would be one example. As regards determination - which, like patience, is one of the Paramis (Perfections) - I am not sure if there is a particular cetasika that performs this function exclusively. I would look it up if it were not for the fact that we are leaving Hong Kong today! Jonothan 703 From: amara chay Date: Sat Aug 26, 2000 11:43pm Subject: English discussions at DSSFB Dear DSSFB Group, Tan Achaan has arranged to have the discussion on Thursday August 31 from 2-5 and another on Saturday at the same time in order that Robert might join us. The session at Khunying Noparatana's house has been postponed because she will be in Europe that first week of the month and the all day session has been moved to the 9th. Robert if you leave late on the 9th you could still perhaps join the morning session, it starts at 9 am. and ends at 3 pm. As usual please check for changes here or with Ivan and Ell, Amara 704 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 0:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Hello, Robert, Looking forward very much to meeting you when you come to the Center. Have thoroughly enjoyed reading your e-mails since they are usually so full of panna and inspiration. Will meet you at the Center on Thursday, Aug. 31, but should you need any help in getting around, please give me a call at: 579-1050. With metta, Betty Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:43 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB > > Dear DSSFB Group, > > Tan Achaan has arranged to have the discussion on Thursday August 31 from > 2-5 and another on Saturday at the same time in order that > Robert might join us. The session at Khunying Noparatana's house > has been postponed because she will be in Europe that first week of the > month and the all day session has been moved to the 9th. Robert if you > leave late on the 9th you could still perhaps join the > morning session, it starts at 9 am. and ends at 3 pm. > > As usual please check for changes here or with Ivan and Ell, > > Amara 705 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 5:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Amara, Betty, Shin, Ivan, ell and other friends, Thanks for the message and please thank Acharn Sujin for arranging the sessions on Thursday and saturday. Wonderful. I will be with two of my children ( we will probably leave on the 9th of september) - they want me to take them to the beach for a couple of days so I might go down to pattaya/jomtien for one or two nights. For the rest of the time I intend to be in Bangkok and hope to meet with group members as often as possible. So if anyone is free let's arrange lunch and dinner dates (and if anyone sees khun chuteemun and others invite them along). Looking forward very much to seeing you all next thursday. Robert --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, Robert, > Looking forward very much to meeting you when you > come to the Center. Have > thoroughly enjoyed reading your e-mails since they > are usually so full of > panna and inspiration. > > Will meet you at the Center on Thursday, Aug. 31, > but should you need any > help in getting around, please give me a call at: > 579-1050. > > With metta, > Betty Yugala > 706 From: amara chay Date: Mon Aug 28, 2000 2:07am Subject: Samatha-Sutta Dear friends in the dhamma, We have another great article for you in the advanced section at , a translation of an excerpt from the discussion session at Khunying Noparat's on July 1st on the Samatha-Sutta. I think it will be a wonderful reminder for everyone, not only for those who were there and the translators! I would like to add that all the trnscript of the tapes from which we took the articles by Khun Sujin were made by an amazing lady of over 80 who has been doing this for over thirty years, Khun Sanguan Sucharitkul (also a former ladies' tennis champion of Thailand) and who has always kindly helped us get the latest material available for the website. I think if there were a championship for transcriptions she would also win rackets down, she works so fast!!! From all of us to all our dhamma friends, Amara 707 From: shinlin Date: Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Robert, I would like to inform you that Kwan has arranged the apartment for you and the kids. Therefore you can use the apartment when you arrived to BKK. Just get the key from the desk counter. We will inform them. See you then. with regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB | Dear Amara, Betty, Shin, Ivan, ell and other friends, | Thanks for the message and please thank Acharn Sujin | for arranging the sessions on Thursday and saturday. | Wonderful. I will be with two of my children ( we will | probably leave on the 9th of september) - they want me | to take them to the beach for a couple of days so I | might go down to pattaya/jomtien for one or two | nights. For the rest of the time I intend to be in | Bangkok and hope to meet with group members as often | as possible. So if anyone is free let's arrange lunch | and dinner dates (and if anyone sees khun chuteemun | and others invite them along). Looking forward very | much to seeing you all next thursday. | Robert 708 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 29, 2000 8:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New article. Dear Amara, My comments were meant as comments (which you often ask for) rather than criticisms! Of course I am not qualified to comment on the Thai, but 'the greatest beneficence does not sound 'a lot better' in English. I would suggest 'the greatest benefit', 'the most worthwhile...'. 'the greatest use or most useful...' or 'the most beneficial..'to give a few suggestions. >I wouldn't say that I love criticism, but I appreciate it from >people whom I know are well intended, in which case I really welcome >them, at least from this group. Having said that, I must explain >that you may be used to Khun Sujin's English, which is absolutely >nothing compared to her other talents and her absolute mastery of >the dhamma, and her proficiency in Pali and Thai terms, which are >far from simple, since the dhamma is so intricate. How would you >say for example 'prayod soong sud' which literally translate as 'the >highest usefulness'? Doesn't 'the greatest beneficence' sound a lot >better? Not to mention the archaic Thai in the Tipitaka about which >I had to rely on Varee's help to even understand!!! > Amara, these are very useful comments, thank you. Often we are with people who are not interested to hear our comments on vipassana or other matters. As you say, it's good to remember at these times that even the sounds of the voices are dhammas as are the lobha and dosa that usually follow! I'm reading the booklet now. Whatever the question, Khun Sujin always talks about realities and the development of understanding. Many good reminders here! Best regards, Sarah >Reading 'Wangtagu' might help a little, as Khun Sujin was speaking >to hundreds of monks who were supposed to teach vipassana, and who >probably had no idea what it was all about! All we can do in a >given situation is the best we can, maybe we sould ask them if they >were interestedin what we think of the matter, and if they were, try >to tell them about it, if they are not, perhaps remind ourselves >that all are dhamma, even the sound of their voices! > >Amara > > 709 From: amara chay Date: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:21pm Subject: Comments Dear all, Thanks, Sarah, I do love comments and corrections, although sometimes I have too much mana to be convinced by them. Having said that, we have found a few mistakes in the 'Samatha-Sutta' and corrected them, so the new version is a little better to read. I might be a somewhat over confident in uploading the material, since the purity and depth as well as details of the teachings are so logically evident despite the linguistic obstacles. I would like to share a little detail about one of the reasons why I appreciate criticisms. As those of you who have read some of the entries in our guest books might have noticed, most of the comments have been very encouraging, but my all time favorite is the 13th, form a certain Zeazar. In Thai we have the saying, criticize to build. It made me go over the English section at the time with a fine tooth comb, though I'm sure we still missed a few things. And when Tom (thanks again for everything, Tom and Bev!) sent me his wonderful tips on how to write meta tags and other html behind the screen necessities, and also how to test them, as well as sent me a whole stack of pages he had corrected the English of, I was able to correct everything, which made us no. 1 with some search engines now (Alta Vista also placed us first, as may have others we haven't seen yet). This would never have happened without the frank feedback, so if you find anything else, especially the embarrassing spelling or grammatical mistakes, please tell us, we do ask for it and will always continue to appreciate it! Amara 710 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Aug 30, 2000 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Robert & friends in Bkk, Hope you have some great discussions together. Pls give our regards to K.Sujin and other friends. Sarah 711 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Aug 30, 2000 11:08pm Subject: Alan Weller Dear Friends, Some of you may be wondering what happened to Alan in England. Well, I just got this message and hopefully he'll be back with us soon! Sarah Dear Sarah, I am still here but minus my two computers. My desktop is not worth repairing and my laptop needs a new part which is coming from USA. I did disconnect from the discussion group meaning to put it onto Hotmail but I did something wrong. The machine I am now on cannot access hotmail its not powerful enough. I should be able to reconnect end of next week from my laptop. best wishes, Alan 712 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Sep 1, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear group, Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It seems theorteical but knowing these details helps us to see them (they are happening now),and their functions and the conditions for them, and so break down the idea of a whole. Betty, it was nice to meet you. It is reallly good when some one comes along who can quickly undertsand the heart of the matter. Accepting the uncontrollabilty of all dhammas is the core of Buddhsim (and then seeing this more and more) but not so many can see this. It was really nice to hear Ivan - at the meeting and later when we had dinner-speaking about some of the more difficult details of Abhidhamma. HE usually says it is not importasnt to know these details but by conditions even he is learning them. It is all so anatta: Ivan doesn't particularly want to learn, but he does - others try so hard (but with lobha)and yet miss the whole point. I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma. I will make copies of the tapes and send to Sarah and jonothon. Today I go to the postoffice to send copies of realituies and concepts to addresses in Sri lanka - Bhikkhu Bodhi requested over 100 copies- and also Burma and England and Singapore. The new center is really nice. having the Buddhas relics there (presented by the supreme patriarch)gives it a special importance. And I much prefer this than the usual Buddha image. Budha images only came into use several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbna. We have another meeting tommorow which I am realy looking forword to. Robert 713 From: amara chay Date: Fri Sep 1, 2000 10:07pm Subject: Negative hetu Dear Group, I have been trying to wrap my mind around a point about the hetu for quite a while now and today as I was trying to explain it to someone, (put it in your own words, as Betty tells her students!) the puzzle finally fell into its place, so I would like to see what you make of this. (Robert, please correct me if I make any mistakes!) Here goes: As we all know, dhamma is divided into two realities, namadhamma, the realities that know or experience, and rupadhamma, the realities that do not. The namadhamma consist of three of the four paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika and nibbana. The citta nad cetasika always arise together, the former being the priciple element of knowing, to the tiniest detail, whatever appears through the six dvara. The latter do all the other functions of experiencing; a certain cetasika remembers, feels, intends, likes, or dislikes, understands realities (panna) depending on the kind of cetasika it is. Some cetasika arise with all citta, while others cannot arise together because their natures are opposites. The six cetasikas that are hetu are three pairs of oppositions, lobha, dosa and moha; opposed to alobha, adosa and amoha (or panna). There are four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya, and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya citta. The first vipaka in life is of course the first citta in a lifetime, the patisandhi. Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some sort. Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three. Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when elaborated reaches ten or twenty something. Varee thinks that he tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage people even more. Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern humans. That is the most important part, after all. But I tend to see it the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the three that concern us directly and how they opperate. Which makes some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life. And the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without unneccessary details that would be useless to know. Does this make any sense to you, Betty? A little announcement, at we have been trying to get on another list headed Buddhism in the search engines since for many people the word dhamma is spelled dharma and many people might be missing us just because we are listed under dhamma. We were trying to find a name which begins with the word Buddhism and Khun Sujin thought of 'Buddhism Today' which we thought was absolutely perfect. So we will try to get that and link the domain name to the present site, which is growing pretty fast and if we included some picture galleries for example of India and such, as well as sound there might be need for more space anyway and even if we did not need more space immediately the name alone might help more people find us. Nong Lan is working on that, thanks Nong Lan! Amara 714 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 8:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Robert, Shin & friends, This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & less planning. As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment. The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means life should be easier, not harder! Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking thinks about. Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape. best wishes, Sarah >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma. > 715 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 8:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Sarah, we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment. Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes. Robert Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: Dear Robert, Shin & friends, This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & less planning. As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment. The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means life should be easier, not harder! Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking thinks about. Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape. best wishes, Sarah >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma. > > 716 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 1:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu Dear Amara, That was a wonderful session Thursday, except when vipaka came at me in the form of a dog bite. However, the marks are just about gone, although it is still a little sensitive at the place where I was bitten. I had to make a conscious effort to project feelings of metta to that dog. But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with sobhana hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao Zedong or a Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana hetus), is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a higher plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi citta arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true here. The akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for humans to have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in nature, such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with akusala hetus. Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he is suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain there for a week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel so sorry for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even last the week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of human care have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on a better plane. See you all tomorrow (whoops, its today already). With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 9:07 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu > > > Dear Group, > > I have been trying to wrap my mind around a point about the hetu for > quite a while now and today as I was trying to explain it to someone, > (put it in your own words, as Betty tells her students!) the puzzle > finally fell into its place, so I would like to see what you make of > this. (Robert, please correct me if I make any mistakes!) Here > goes: > > As we all know, dhamma is divided into two realities, namadhamma, > the realities that know or experience, and rupadhamma, the realities > that do not. The namadhamma consist of three of the four > paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika and nibbana. The citta nad > cetasika always arise together, the former being the priciple > element of knowing, to the tiniest detail, whatever appears through > the six dvara. The latter do all the other functions of > experiencing; a certain cetasika remembers, feels, intends, likes, > or dislikes, understands realities (panna) depending on the kind of > cetasika it is. Some cetasika arise with all citta, while others > cannot arise together because their natures are opposites. The six > cetasikas that are hetu are three pairs of oppositions, lobha, dosa > and moha; opposed to alobha, adosa and amoha (or panna). There are > four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya, > and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya citta. The > first vipaka in life is of course the first citta in a lifetime, the > patisandhi. > > Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since > there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it > accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to > have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some > sort. Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who > could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three. > Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a > human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha > usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even > the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would > sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when > elaborated reaches ten or twenty something. Varee thinks that he > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage > people even more. Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern > humans. > > That is the most important part, after all. But I tend to see it > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the > three that concern us directly and how they opperate. Which makes > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life. And > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without > unneccessary details that would be useless to know. Does this make > any sense to you, Betty? > > A little announcement, at we have been > trying to get on another list headed Buddhism in the search > engines since for many people the word dhamma is spelled dharma and > many people might be missing us just because we are listed under > dhamma. We were trying to find a name which begins with the word > Buddhism and Khun Sujin thought of 'Buddhism Today' which we thought > was absolutely perfect. So we will try to get that and link the > domain name to the present site, which is growing pretty fast and if > we included some picture galleries for example of India and such, as > well as sound there might be need for more space anyway and even if > we did not need more space immediately the name alone might help > more people find us. Nong Lan is working on that, thanks Nong Lan! > > Amara > 717 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 0:06am Subject: Re: Negative hetu > But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with sobhana > hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao Zedong or a > Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana hetus), > is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a higher > plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi citta > arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true here. The > akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for humans to > have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in nature, > such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with akusala > hetus. > > Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he is > suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a > deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain there for a > week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel so sorry > for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even last the > week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of human care > have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on a better > plane. Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma, First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even the handicapped person. About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what he might have done to find relief if he gets help either. And when you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or another. So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we don't know when. He just won't get out of samsara until he could understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards enlightenment. > > Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since > > there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it > > accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to > > have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some > > sort. Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who > > could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three. > > Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a > > human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha > > usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even > > the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would > > sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when > > elaborated reaches ten or twenty something. Varee thinks that he > > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage > > people even more. Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are > > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any > > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern > > humans. > > > > That is the most important part, after all. But I tend to see it > > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, > > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the > > three that concern us directly and how they opperate. Which makes > > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are > > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the > > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to > > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life. And > > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without > > unneccessary details that would be useless to know. As I was just trying all this out, I printed out a copy and asked Khun Sujin to look it over and she thought I was going to put it in the web and told me to hold it, so I think there must be further corrections I will have to tell you about later. I will report the mistakes, sorry if I have misled anyone, Amara 718 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 11:47am Subject: Re: English discussions at DSSFB > The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned > realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means > life should be easier, not harder! > > Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, > following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing > and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll > be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. > Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is > awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking > thinks about. Great points, Sarah, I would like to add that one does not really have a choice in the matter. We might think we can choose whether to change or not, in fact it is our accumulations and vipaka that make the choice, and in the end there is no self who makes the dicisions anyway. I hope you enjoy the tapes Robert is sending you and to hear from you often from Hong Kong. By the way I have some bad news, the great lady who transcribes Khun Sujin's Thai tapes for us has had a slight stroke (she's well over eighty) and temporarily lost the use of her right hand, although when we visited her last evening she was looking well and as cheery as ever, remembering more abhidhamma than most of us (except for Khun Sujin and maybe one other person in the room). She has also recovered the use of her hand, although during her illness she was so worried that she dreamt that she was able to write again and was doing transcriptions for us especially, of a recent passage from the Rayong trip! Amara 719 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 3:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Sutta >We have another great article for you in the advanced section at >, a translation of an excerpt from the >discussion session at Khunying Noparat's on July 1st on the >Samatha-Sutta. I think it will be a wonderful reminder for >everyone, not only for those who were there and the translators! Amara, Many thanks for this article, which I am now reading. In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of looking into a mirror. Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it? Thanks. >I would like to add that all the trnscript of the tapes from which >we took the articles by Khun Sujin were made by an amazing lady of >over 80 who has been doing this for over thirty years, Khun Sanguan >Sucharitkul (also a former ladies' tennis champion of Thailand) and >who has always kindly helped us get the latest material available >for the website. I think if there were a championship for >transcriptions she would also win rackets down, she works so fast!!! You mention in a subsequent posting that this lady has suffered a stroke. I do hope she makes a speedy and complete recovery. We certainly appreciate her kusala endeavours (with the assistance of your translation). JOnothan 720 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 3:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu Amara, Since birth in the human plane is the result of kusala kamma, and the hetus are the so-called positive ones, perhaps it follows that a birth that is the result of akusala kamma would come with the negative hetus. Jonothan PS Was this topic raised in your subsequent discussion with Khun Sujin? 721 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 11:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB >Robert, yes, it would have been good to see you & the kids here! I just finished my summer teaching and we came here in haste, pretty zonked out. Well recovered now! Sounds like the English discussions are going well in Bkk- reminds me of the old days when I first went to Bkk and there were great regular English discussions at Wat Bovan. Sounds like some really varied discussion topics too, but in the end wherever the topic starts it ends up with realities which can be known now. it's so helpful to approach from different directions in order to understand more about the anattaness of these realities. Hope the kids are having a good time too! We'll be seeing you in Cambodia for sure and we'll be in Bkk for a couple of days before and after... Sarah > > Dear Sarah, > >we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known >you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the >comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the >functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many >lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more >and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about >the uncontrollabilty of every moment. > >Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different >kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other >kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes. > >Robert > > 722 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 10:01pm Subject: Re: Samatha-Sutta > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of looking into > a mirror. Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it? Jonothan, By now you must have seen that over half of the article does just that: it explains the sutta, ending with a line by line examination of the text. What excited me when I first heard it (I happened to be there when she gave that talk because she had told me to take Betty, who got lost on her first attempt to get to Khunying's house) was that we do it everyday, don't we all, look into the mirror. And always we saw us in there, but after this when we do we might begin to have other thoughts that are more kusala. That is why it was meant as a special gift for all dhamma friends who read Khun Sujin's words, even transcribed and translated(sorry if the translation is not as good as it should be but I think I did the best I could). When I first heard the sutta, I thought as one of her interlocutors remarked, what vanity! What does it have to do with the bhikkhu and even other Buddhists? But it was a wonderful reminder it turned out to be, and a great revelation for me. Do tell me what you think when you have finished it! > You mention in a subsequent posting that this lady has suffered a stroke. I > do hope she makes a speedy and complete recovery. We certainly appreciate > her kusala endeavours (with the assistance of your translation). Will tell her, thanks, Jonothan. She had completely recovered her speech, which was very much in evidence when we visited her with Khun Sujin her sister, Betty, Shin, Nong Lan and three other dhamma friends (poor Robert had to take his tired kids home otherwise he would have enjoyed it. Also the hospital is certainly not a good place for his beautiful healthy children), when Nong Lan remarked that we talked about the dhamma just as others would talk about a favorite soap opera! She also had recovered the use of her hand, which greatly delighted me (yes, lobha!!!) but the thing is that her blood pressure was still quite high and the doctors refused to let her go home. In fact they do not exclude an emergency surgery. But with all the kusala vipaka of thirty years transcribing the tapes, for anyone to borrow, we may hope that she will not need any unpleasant procedures and return home soon, so we may have some more recent as well as excellent dhamma from Khun Sujin. Our kusala vipaka may also depend on her maha kusala hand and I think she enjoyed the fact that we looked forward to and appreciated her work! Amara 723 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 10:15pm Subject: Re: Negative hetu --- "Jonothan Abbott" wrote: > Amara, > Since birth in the human plane is the result of kusala kamma, and the hetus > are the so-called positive ones, perhaps it follows that a birth that is the > result of akusala kamma would come with the negative hetus. > Jonothan > PS Was this topic raised in your subsequent discussion with Khun Sujin? It was, and by now you may have seen the correction I made about humans, even handicapped ones, being born with two hetu at least. However, I have printed out what I wrote and asked Khun Sujin to correct me, so that we may expect more corrections later on when she has the time to finish reading it. Meanwhile I am really interested in what everyone thinks about it, so please send in more comments. I specifically addressed Betty last time because she said in class that she had the same problem with the negative hetu as I do, but again, those were my speculations, nothing more. I will report when Khun Sujin has seen my print out. Amara 724 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 4, 2000 1:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Sutta > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of looking into a mirror. Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it? Jonothan and friends, Fist of all, I would like to thank you very much for the wonderful site and this forum of Dhamma discussions, one of the best I know ... Although I' m not a active member due to my wickness in a profound Dhamma knowledge and in English, this morning I was reading the Maha Parinibhana Sutta, DN 16. Digha Nikaya 16 Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html#n61 ...... The Mirror of the Dhamma 8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'" 9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself? "In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' "He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.' "He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honour, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration -- the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.' "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind. 10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'" ... Metta, Leonardo Neves, Brazil 725 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 4, 2000 1:35pm Subject: Re: Samatha-Sutta > Although I' m not a active member due to my wickness in a profound Dhamma > knowledge and in English, this morning I was reading the Maha Parinibhana Sutta, DN > 16. Dear Leonardo, It' great to hear from another member of the list! Thank you the quotation and its source, I did not realize I had misunderstood Jonothan's question until I read your posting. Please don't worry about your English, and even less about your knowledge of the dhamma, no one can know all that the Buddha had taught in the Tipitaka, except for a few of the arahanta in those days and even then the Buddha did not teach all that he knew. We are lucky to be born when his true teachings are still availabe and the Tipitaka still complete since it is predicted to disappear to the last word before the next Buddha will come millions of years from now. By studying the dhamma we are doing our part in making the end come later rather than sooner by adding one more person each to the number of students, since no one can make other people study anything. It is also the highest respect we could pay to the Buddha and the Dhamma as well as increasing our own understanding. And helping other students to study is also great kusala, so anumodana again for sending the passage, and hope to hear from you again soon. Your fellow student, Amara PS. Jonothan, I thought you might like to hear how Khun Sujin explains the sutta, so I have asked her to speak about it at our next session, which will be the Wednesday after (Sept.13) since this Saturday there is the monthly session at Khunying's. > Digha Nikaya 16 > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, found at: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html#n61 > > ...... The Mirror of the Dhamma > > 8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if > each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this > manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the > teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should > he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor > as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from > falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'" > > 9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which > the noble disciple may thus declare of himself? > > "In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha > thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge > and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, > the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' > > "He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed > One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to > emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.' > > "He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well > faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: > that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed > One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honour, of hospitality, of offerings, of > veneration -- the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.' > > "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, > spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by > worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind. > > 10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble > disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as > an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling > into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'" ... > > Metta, > Leonardo Neves, > Brazil 726 From: shinlin Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Friends, You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Sarah, we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment. Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes. Robert Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: Dear Robert, Shin & friends, This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & less planning. As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment. The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means life should be easier, not harder! Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking thinks about. Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep postyng! Enjoy the rest of the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape. best wishes, Sarah >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma. > > 727 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu Dear group, I just heard from Khun Ell that one of Acharn Sujins long time students has died and the funeral is at Wat Thathong on sukumvit> I will attend and see some of you there. About the negative hetu. amara wrote:sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when > > Varee thinks that he > > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage > > people even more. Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are > > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any > > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern > > humans. > > > > That is the most important part, after all. But I tend to see it > > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, > > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the > > three that concern us directly and how they opperate. Which makes > > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are > > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the > > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to > > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life. And > > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without > > unneccessary details that would be useless to know. I agree that it is hard to understand why there are no hetu in the case of lowewre realms however I think Amara's conclusion is surely wrong. The Abhidhamma is complete. The buddha taught it fully and perfectly accurately. It says there are no hetu in this case and so this is really the way it is. The Buddha didn't teach a lot of things but this is not one of those cases. Robert amara chay wrote: > But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with sobhana > hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao Zedong or a > Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana hetus), > is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a higher > plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi citta > arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true here. The > akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for humans to > have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in nature, > such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with akusala > hetus. > > Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he is > suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a > deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain there for a > week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel so sorry > for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even last the > week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of human care > have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on a better > plane. Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma, First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even the handicapped person. About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what he might have done to find relief if he gets help either. And when you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or another. So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we don't know when. He just won't get out of samsara until he could understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards enlightenment. > > Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since > > there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it > > accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to > > have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some > > sort. Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who > > could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three. > > Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a > > human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha > > usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even > > the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would > > sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when > > elaborated reaches ten or twenty something. Varee thinks that he > > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage > > people even more. Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are > > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any > > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern > > humans. > > > > That is the most important part, after all. But I tend to see it > > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, > > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the > > three that concern us directly and how they opperate. Which makes > > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are > > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the > > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to > > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life. And > > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without > > unneccessary details that would be useless to know. As I was just trying all this out, I printed out a copy and asked Khun Sujin to look it over and she thought I was going to put it in the web and told me to hold it, so I think there must be further corrections I will have to tell you about later. I will report the mistakes, sorry if I have misled anyone, Amara 728 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Shin, It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas. It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience) Robert Dear Friends, You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance. with metta, Shin 729 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 7:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Robert and Shin, First, Shin: How happy I was (kusala vipaka) to hear that you have gained increased understanding of the nature of self: that is panna rising. And that is what is so important and exciting about our discussions: they provide paccaya for panna to arise. See you on Saturday, at KY Nopparat's. Robert, It was such a pleasure to meet you and even more, to learn from you. I realize more and more how valuable our discussions are. Each time that we become aware of the workings of the illusion of self, that sets the conditions for panna to arise. Have a safe trip back home and look forward to reading your ideas and observations at the site. With metta, Betty PS: Who is the person who died and when is the funeral? ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB Dear Shin, It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas. It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience) Robert Dear Friends, You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance. with metta, Shin 730 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 10:49pm Subject: discussion on wednesday 6 /9 and thursday at 2pm Daer Betty and Shin, We might meet earlier than you thought. At the funeral today, Ell and Amara helped me ask Khun Sujin if we could have more meetings before I go. And lo, we now are now meeting on wednesday and thursay at 2pm at the foundation. Can you come? We all paid respects to the deceased today and were reminded that our turn will soon come. Robert 731 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 11:26pm Subject: Tomorrow and Thursday, 2-5 Dear all, Unhapppy circumstances brought Tan Achaan back to Bangkok, but it has also kindly provided Robert and the rest of the English discussion group the unexpected opportunity to have two extra sessions at the foundation. The lady who has passed away was one of the sweetest and accomplished persons on earth, not only does she understand the sati-patthana but she was a wonderful cook and embroiderer, an all around housewife and mother as well as one of the national team of tennis players, usually playing for the Royal Bangkok Sports Club in those days, traveling with the team all over the globe. She was certainly the sweetest tempered person and I think she would be happy to know that she has, even now, helped us indirectly. I have asked Nong Lan to print out, if possible, the 'Mirror Sutta' so we can follow the explanations and discuss it tomorrow more easily, among other subjects. For some basic understanding of what we will be reading together tomorrow I would like to suggest that we all read at least the last part of 'Samatha Sutta' where Khun Sujin explained it line by line. You will see it is not very long. Luckily the 'Mirror Sutta' is shorter, and if we have read the 'SS', understanding the 'MS' might be easier. Then we can spend more time on other subjects and perhaps continue on the suject of citta. Looking forward to the next sessions and hoping everyone sees this, please tell your friends, Amara 732 From: amara chay Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: Negative hetu > I agree that it is hard to understand why there are no hetu in the case of lowewre realms however I think Amara's conclusion is surely wrong. The Abhidhamma is complete. The buddha taught it fully and perfectly accurately. It says there are no hetu in this case and so this is really the way it is. > > The Buddha didn't teach a lot of things but this is not one of those cases. > > Robert Robert, could you elaborate, please? As I said, I just couldn't get a firm grasp on all this, except to think certain things are left unexplained. Maybe you can explain to me again why there are no negative hetu since there are positive ones? Buddhism seems so logical and balanced, when things arise there are things that do not and when there are things that fall away, there are things that do not. There is good, bad and neutral. There is knowledge and ignorance. Samma and miccha. Even the hetu come in pairs of opposites, lobha, alobha; dosa, adosa; and moha and amoha. And then there are the possitive hetu for humans... My thinking habits keep looking for the second half of the equation before it can accept the input! What did you say is the reason there are no neg. hetu? Amara 733 From: jaran jai-nhuknan Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 7:56am Subject: Hi All: I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are insightful. I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I asked whether eating or cutting plants unwholesome? First, my intuition told me that it was not unwholesome (due to killing or hurting others not wanting to eat or possess) because plants do not "feel", so they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made up of 'ruupa' alone no 'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do not feel hurt? I mean how do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not nama? Does it say anywhere in the tipitaka about this? I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa when I see him/her begging for food or running away when I am mad. However, plants may also want to do the same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do that. Staying still does not mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast, they may do feel, but they cannot do anything about it? My question is why are we so certain that plants don't have nama? Thank you, jaran 734 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 9:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] discussion on wednesday 6 /9 and thursday at 2pm Robert, Absolutely. Will see you this afternoon. Looking forward to it very much. Betty 735 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] plants have feeling? Dear Jaran, A good question and a difficult one if we try to rely only on our own intuition. Science cannot give us the answer to this as science can only distinguish rupa (to some extend)- it cannot understand nama. Fortunately there are several places in the tipitika and commentaries(I have no references to hand) where it specifically explains that plants are only rupa, conditioned by temperature (not kamma or citta). Thus they have no feeling, and make no kamma. Therefore if we "kill" plants we are not making akusala kamma pattha. The monks are not allowed to deliberately damage a blade of grass but this is for reasons other than plants been alive. One of the reasons given is that common people believe that plants are alive and so if they see monks cutting trees they will be disgusted and so may be put off buddhism . There are other reasons too. Things like bacteria and virus's are not mentioned in the pali but we can consider and will see that they also are merely rupa (no nama) . However some of the larger organisms it may be difficult to say wheter they have nama but certainly plants do not. This is such a hard question that some mahayana sects such as zen believe plants do have nama and so they vow to save every being including every blade of grass. Robert ). --- jaran jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi All: > > I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are > insightful. > > I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I > asked whether eating or cutting > plants unwholesome? > > First, my intuition told me that it was not > unwholesome (due to killing or > hurting others not wanting to eat or possess) > because plants do not "feel", so > they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made > up of 'ruupa' alone no > 'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do > not feel hurt? I mean how > do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not > nama? Does it say anywhere > in the tipitaka about this? > > I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa > when I see him/her begging > for food or running away when I am mad. However, > plants may also want to do the > same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do > that. Staying still does not > mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast, > they may do feel, but they > cannot do anything about it? > > My question is why are we so certain that plants > don't have nama? > > Thank you, > jaran > 736 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu Dear Betty & friends Humans have the potential to develop right understanding while animals do not. Because of the sobhana hetus (as I understand it) even a Hitler, Mao or Stalin was born with the 'potential' to develop wisdom and even in between heinous deeds this wisdom can develop. (We can see many such accounts amongst the Buddha's followers). Animals, however loving and wonderful, never have this opportunity and are not therefore considered to be in a happy realm. Others may have further comments on this. In some heavenly planes, life is such bliss, there is no incentive to develop wisdom. Humans may also experience harsh circumstances and vipaka like your poor dog, but there is the chance to develop wisdom.Let's not waste it! I hope, meanwhile, your dog doesn't suffer too much! Remember that everytime we feel sorry or have unpleasant feeling, it's not compassion or any other skilful state! A lot of what I used to take for compassion was simply dosa (aversion). It's the same if we feel badly about the 'bad' things on T.V.- the problem is not at that moment the bad things on T.V. or anywhere else, but the dosa we're accumulating at that time. Whenever there's unpleasant feeling, the citta (consciousness) is unwholesome. It can always find objects to feel badly about. best wishes, Sarah P.S.It sounds like you're all have some great discussions now. I'm so glad. Are you and Shin joining the Cambodia trip? > > But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with >sobhana > > hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao >Zedong or a > > Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana >hetus), > > is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a >higher > > plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi >citta > > arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true >here. The > > akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for >humans to > > have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in >nature, > > such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with >akusala > > hetus. > > > > Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he >is > > suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a > > deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain >there for a > > week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel >so sorry > > for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even >last the > > week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of >human >care > > have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on >a >better > > plane. > >Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma, > >First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said >that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even >the handicapped person. > >About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the >things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the >dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he >must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that >one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what >he might have done to find relief if he gets help either. And when >you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we >must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in >samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the >Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or >another. So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we >don't know when. He just won't get out of samsara until he could >understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards >enlightenment. > > 737 From: amara chay Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: Negative hetu Dear friends in the dhamma, This afternoon my problems about hetu were finally worked out for me, Khun Sujin did not say negative hetu never arose in hell, but repeated that it was not mentioned and that there were so many realities in life to be studied for us to worry about what goes on in other worlds (I had asked her about the hell beings whose duties were to kill other hell beings- not only were they there to suffer just like the others but it was their duty to make fellow sufferers suffer even more!). I can finally reconcile my logic to the hetus in humans and intellectually understand most of the issue. Not all humans have the third hetu, or panna, to study the dhamma, by the way, and even if they do they often do not feel inclined to study it. We are indeed the lucky ones sitting in front of the screen reading the dhamma and possibly being aware of the senses and thier objects involved, instead of for example playing computer games or reading some sensational news, although when that happens we can study the lobha through different dvara as well. Today towards the end she explained half of the mirror sutta, and will continue tomorrow, again there was much more to it than anyone would suspect. She also remarked that the translation was inadequate, and not deep enough, I will show her my translation of the Pali based on her explanations tomorrow, and will copy it here for you then. I think there were very good explanations today of several complex problems, too bad so many people missed the session because of the extremely short notice as well as other business. Tomorrow I will get the tapes to edit and will place them all in the library, today they will probably make copies for those who ordered some. Betty, would you prefer the uncut version or mine, because mine will take a little longer and may not be edited to your expectations? Amara 738 From: amara chay Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 10:31pm Subject: Re: plants have feeling? Dear Jaran, Robert gave a very good answer and I would like to add a point someone once asked me: what about plants that seem move or send messages to other plants? In Thailand we have a common weed that closes up when touched, and several plants especially the eucalypti of Australia send out chemicals in the air when they are attacked by certain organisms so that others of their kind, miles away and without any problems yet, start already to build up resistence in preparation. I think there are some chemical or other rupa reactions that operate within our own bodies automatically so that we are not even conscious of, much less order them to do what they do. Everyone who lives in Thailand must have been bitten by a mosquito at least once. Isn't it true that sometimes we are conscious of it only after the little swell rises up on our skin? Who ordered our antibodies to identify and intruder and rush to fight them, causing the itch as well as the swell? And this is the body of a living person, you. Still so many things functions on its own, according to conditions, moving without being controled by you. Plants are much less complicated, but some are programmed somehow to react to certain things in the same manner, I think. Hope this helps, and so glad to hear from another new friend in the group, Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Jaran, > A good question and a difficult one if we try to rely > only on our own intuition. Science cannot give us the > answer to this as science can only distinguish rupa > (to some extend)- it cannot understand nama. > Fortunately there are several places in the tipitika > and commentaries(I have no references to hand) where > it specifically explains that plants are only rupa, > conditioned by temperature (not kamma or citta). Thus > they have no feeling, and make no kamma. Therefore if > we "kill" plants we are not making akusala kamma > pattha. > > The monks are not allowed to deliberately damage a > blade of grass but this is for reasons other than > plants been alive. One of the reasons given is that > common people believe that plants are alive and so if > they see monks cutting trees they will be disgusted > and so may be put off buddhism . There are other > reasons too. > > Things like bacteria and virus's are not mentioned in > the pali but we can consider and will see that they > also are merely rupa (no nama) . However some of the > larger organisms it may be difficult to say wheter > they have nama but certainly plants do not. > This is such a hard question that some mahayana sects > such as zen believe plants do have nama and so they > vow to save every being including every blade of > grass. > > Robert > ). > 739 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 0:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu Hi, Amara, Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so far away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in which we got lost owing to faulty directions given. So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain persons exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that illusion of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as well, though I still need to understand that one much further. Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us. Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to go to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If there is a change in those plans, please call me. Many thanks for everything. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:04 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > This afternoon my problems about hetu were finally worked out for > me, Khun Sujin did not say negative hetu never arose in hell, but > repeated that it was not mentioned and that there were so many > realities in life to be studied for us to worry about what goes on > in other worlds (I had asked her about the hell beings whose duties > were to kill other hell beings- not only were they there to suffer > just like the others but it was their duty to make fellow sufferers > suffer even more!). I can finally reconcile my logic to the hetus > in humans and intellectually understand most of the issue. Not all > humans have the third hetu, or panna, to study the dhamma, by the > way, and even if they do they often do not feel inclined to study > it. We are indeed the lucky ones sitting in front of the screen > reading the dhamma and possibly being aware of the senses and thier > objects involved, instead of for example playing computer games or > reading some sensational news, although when that happens we can > study the lobha through different dvara as well. > > Today towards the end she explained half of the mirror sutta, and > will continue tomorrow, again there was much more to it than anyone > would suspect. She also remarked that the translation was > inadequate, and not deep enough, I will show her my translation of > the Pali based on her explanations tomorrow, and will copy it here > for you then. I think there were very good explanations today of > several complex problems, too bad so many people missed the session > because of the extremely short notice as well as other business. > Tomorrow I will get the tapes to edit and will place them all in the > library, today they will probably make copies for those who ordered > some. Betty, would you prefer the uncut version or mine, because > mine will take a little longer and may not be edited to your > expectations? > > Amara > 740 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu >Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so far >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was >especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in >which we got lost owing to faulty directions given. Dear Betty, Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted from mine yesterday, although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are glad to see us when we go, I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday! >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain persons >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a >product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that >illusion >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as well, >though I still need to understand that one much further. I think you should check with Khun Sujin about this because I think she said that although these things are rare, they do exist but compared to the Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively unimportant and temporary, not to be attached to, but known as another reality of life. We tend to make a big thing out of it, like for everything else. The thing is to know it as a kusala without adding our own lobha to it, and others as akusala without adding a dose of our own dosa to it. After all they all fall away immediately like that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot the other arrows on the spot for as long as we do not know what they really are. >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to >understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us. > >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to >go >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If >there is a change in those plans, please call me. I will get the tapes for you today. Betty, could you remind me again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up Khun Jeed, (to whom I am very attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that often! We should try to get there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing the session. Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be going to Khunying Noparat's place? Amara 741 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 4:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu Dear Amara, Many thanks for your comments on receiving "feelings" from other people, such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is little wisdom to be found in "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be found in no way equals the wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but "thip" as it is called in Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha Dhammas. So, in that case, Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of our own lobha cetasika that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is certainly not rupa nor Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I thought about it on the way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was absolutely correct about it, that these are products of our own lobha, building more onto that self "wall" that will only need to be broken down even more afterward. When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan, who died in 1989, he performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people, etc., but mostly he could do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did. However, many of his followers tried to claim they had all kinds of powers too, but in their case they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or more precisely, pride that just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I could see that, but I didn't have the terminology of dhamma then. with metta, Betty Dear Robert, If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" would you kindly leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give it to my friend who I know will understand it and learn from it. Unfortunately, she has no time to come to our sessions since her life is far more socially demanding than mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that amount and make it a donation to the Center? Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to your return here as soon as possible. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu > > > >Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so far > >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was > >especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in > >which we got lost owing to faulty directions given. > > Dear Betty, > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted from mine yesterday, > although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are glad to see us when we go, > I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday! > > >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to > >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain persons > >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a > >product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that > >illusion > >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as well, > >though I still need to understand that one much further. > > I think you should check with Khun Sujin about this because I think she said > that although these things are rare, they do exist but compared to the > Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively unimportant and temporary, > not to be attached to, but known as another reality of life. We tend to > make a big thing out of it, > like for everything else. The thing is to know it as a kusala > without adding our own lobha to it, and others as akusala without adding a > dose of our own dosa to it. After all they all fall away immediately like > that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot the other arrows on the > spot for as long as we do not know what they really are. > > >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to > >understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't > >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us. > > > >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to > >go > >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If > >there is a change in those plans, please call me. > > I will get the tapes for you today. Betty, could you remind me > again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up Khun Jeed, (to whom I am very > attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that often! We should try to get > there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing the session. > > Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be going to Khunying Noparat's > place? > > Amara 742 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 8:14pm Subject: New Page for 'Words' Dear everyone, has a new word added to the section 'A Few Words' about lobha, this time an excerpt from a recorded talk at Wat Bovorn, I think. The talk was made into cassettes called the 'Citta-Paramattha' Series, tape no. 30. available in the library. Hope you find it useful, thank you in advance for your comments, Amara 743 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 8:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? --- Dear Betty, I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism when I get back to japan. What is your address? About the discusion on wednesday: Betty commented that some people seem special. For example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she could feel in his presence. Many people say similar things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai Baba etc. I would elaborate on this a little. Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas are conditioned by citta and so the features are more pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our smell is better. However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still be having akusala cittas. Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna. Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from the past are more likeable or indeed"special". Conversely someone may have little metta, even be rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding of nama and rupa. I notice many people are impressed by such things. If this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on such feelings then many problems will arise. 1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based on lobha, attachment to such things. 2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in some things they are right in all. Thus no way to understand the nature of miccha-ditthi. For me I deliberately try not to think about the special features of a teacher. Some one told me they love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get carried away we may not be really considering what she says. I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him as a teacher. And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone says. No matter how reliable they appear. I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are - namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If we are not then we are not really benefitting from these kusala vipaka moments. Robert > Many thanks for your comments on receiving > "feelings" from other people, > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is > little wisdom to be found in > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be > found in no way equals the > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but > "thip" as it is called in > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha > Dhammas. So, in that case, > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of > our own lobha cetasika > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is > certainly not rupa nor > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I > thought about it on the > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was > absolutely correct about > it, that these are products of our own lobha, > building more onto that self > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even > more afterward. > > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan, > who died in 1989, he > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people, > etc., but mostly he could > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did. > However, many of his > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of > powers too, but in their case > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or > more precisely, pride that > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I > could see that, but I > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then. > > with metta, > Betty > > Dear Robert, > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in > Buddhism" would you kindly > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give > it to my friend who I > know will understand it and learn from it. > Unfortunately, she has no time to > come to our sessions since her life is far more > socially demanding than > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that > amount and make it a > donation to the Center? > > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to > your return here as soon > as possible. > > With metta, > Betty 744 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? Dear Robert, Many thanks in advance for sending the book to me and "anumodhana" for your insightful explanation of extrasensory qualities that some can discern from some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was something else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said. My address is: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand Have a safe trip back. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? > > > --- Dear Betty, > I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism > when I get back to japan. What is your address? > > About the discusion on wednesday: > Betty commented that some people seem special. For > example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in > Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she > could feel in his presence. Many people say similar > things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai > Baba etc. > I would elaborate on this a little. > Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas > are conditioned by citta and so the features are more > pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the > eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than > when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas > the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our > smell is better. > However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either > sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still > be having akusala cittas. > > Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great > metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna. > > Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from > the past are more likeable or indeed"special". > > Conversely someone may have little metta, even be > rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding > of nama and rupa. > > I notice many people are impressed by such things. If > this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on > such feelings then many problems will arise. > 1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based > on lobha, attachment to such things. > 2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in > some things they are right in all. Thus no way to > understand the nature of miccha-ditthi. > > For me I deliberately try not to think about the > special features of a teacher. Some one told me they > love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get > carried away we may not be really considering what she > says. > I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with > leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him > as a teacher. > And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone > says. No matter how reliable they appear. > I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to > learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are - > namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should > attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware > of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala > and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If > we are not then we are not really benefitting from > these kusala vipaka moments. > Robert > > > > > Many thanks for your comments on receiving > > "feelings" from other people, > > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is > > little wisdom to be found in > > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be > > found in no way equals the > > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but > > "thip" as it is called in > > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha > > Dhammas. So, in that case, > > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of > > our own lobha cetasika > > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is > > certainly not rupa nor > > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I > > thought about it on the > > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was > > absolutely correct about > > it, that these are products of our own lobha, > > building more onto that self > > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even > > more afterward. > > > > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan, > > who died in 1989, he > > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people, > > etc., but mostly he could > > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did. > > However, many of his > > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of > > powers too, but in their case > > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or > > more precisely, pride that > > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I > > could see that, but I > > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then. > > > > with metta, > > Betty > > > > Dear Robert, > > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in > > Buddhism" would you kindly > > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give > > it to my friend who I > > know will understand it and learn from it. > > Unfortunately, she has no time to > > come to our sessions since her life is far more > > socially demanding than > > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that > > amount and make it a > > donation to the Center? > > > > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to > > your return here as soon > > as possible. > > > > With metta, > > Betty 745 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 8, 2000 8:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Sutta Leonardo, Many thanks for your reply to my query about the mirror analogy. I have been travelling the past few days and have just read your message. We are very pleased to hear from any new member. Please feel free to join in the discussion, or to post your own questions or comments. You are our first member from Brazil. Would you like to tell us how you became interested in the Dhamma? Jonothan PS Amara, many thanks for welcoming Leonardo to the list. 746 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:42pm Subject: DSSFB English Discussion Dear DSSFBED group, Please tell your friends that there will be two sessions this week, on Thursday and Saturday 2-5. Hope you will be able to make it, otherwise the tapes will be available (the last two sessions were great also). See you! Amara 747 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:53am Subject: plants and organisms and beings Dear Leonardo and Jaran, It's great to hear from both of you on the list. We all enjoy hearing different 'voices'. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're really glad you both enjoy the discussion list. Jaran, Robert & Amara have given some useful and interesting comments to this important qu. With regard to those borderline organisms, presumably the intention is of relevance here i.e. if one assumes wrongly the organism is plant matter (rupa only) and knowingly destroys it, I assume there cannot be any akusala kammapatha? ..and presumably the reverse follows i.e if one assumes wrongly it is animal matter (a living being) and avoids harming, there cannot be any kusala vipaka....can there even be any kusala cetana as there must be wrong view or ignorance somewhere along the line? I look f/w to comments from anyone! Sarah p.s. jaran, would you tell us where you're fromor based? > >Hi All: > >I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are insightful. > >I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I asked whether eating or >cutting >plants unwholesome? > >First, my intuition told me that it was not unwholesome (due to killing or >hurting others not wanting to eat or possess) because plants do not "feel", >so >they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made up of 'ruupa' alone no >'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do not feel hurt? I mean >how >do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not nama? Does it say >anywhere >in the tipitaka about this? > >I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa when I see him/her >begging >for food or running away when I am mad. However, plants may also want to do >the >same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do that. Staying still does >not >mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast, they may do feel, but >they >cannot do anything about it? > >My question is why are we so certain that plants don't have nama? > >Thank you, >jaran > 748 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 2:25am Subject: Mirror, Mirror.... Dear Amara, Leonardo and Jonothan Having read both the sutta which Leonardo kindly posted and the article which Amara refers to using the analogy of the mirror, I fail to see the connection between the two. Maybe I haven't considered enough. In the article it points out, as Amara explains, how we look in the mirror as a daily activity and usually have wrong view and other akusala cittas (unwholesome mental states) instead of using it as a condition to develop more kusala. Actually, we could consider any daily activity, such as eating, in the same way, but perhaps when we look in the mirror there are even more conditions to take the visible object for self. What do you all think? When I read the sutta from the Digha Nigaya, the meaning seems to refer more to looking at the teachings and triple gem in the mirror...but perhaps we can say it's the same in the sense that understanding the realities whilst looking in the mirror is the way to take a mirror to understand the triple gem which leads to enlightenment.... Comments? Sarah > > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of >looking into > > a mirror. Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it? > >Jonothan, > >By now you must have seen that over half of the article does just >that: it explains the sutta, ending with a line by line examination >of the text. What excited me when I first heard it (I happened to >be there when she gave that talk because she had told me to take >Betty, who got lost on her first attempt to get to Khunying's house) >was that we do it everyday, don't we all, look into the mirror. And >always we saw us in there, but after this when we do we might begin >to have other thoughts that are more kusala. That is why it was >meant as a special gift for all dhamma friends who read Khun Sujin's >words, even transcribed and translated(sorry if the translation is >not as good as it should be but I think I did the best I could). >When I first heard the sutta, I thought as one of her interlocutors >remarked, what vanity! What does it have to do with the bhikkhu and >even other Buddhists? But it was a wonderful reminder it turned out >to be, and a great revelation for me. Do tell me what you think >when you have finished it! > 749 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 11, 2000 11:47pm Subject: Re: Negative hetu Dear everyone, I just received the final corrections of my first posting about negative hetu, and other than the first correction that human patisandhi citta are accompanied by two or three hetu, never with none or one, there is also this detail that is not precise: 'There are four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya, and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya citta.' the kiriya citta of the arahanta that were kusala before becoming an arahanta, and the hasitupada (which cause the arahanta to smile) are sahetuka or rooted in sobhana hetu but since kusala citta do not arise in them any more and they have abyagata kiriya citta instead, the only two kiriya citta with hetu are therefore of the arahanta, normal people never have kiriya citta with hetu. Other than that there are no more corrections. Amara 750 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Sep 13, 2000 0:22am Subject: names & details Dear Robert & friends, So we often consider whether it is important to learn about the details in the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot of abhidhamma but somehow seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice or understanding of the teachings. Others may study little but develop more understanding. Who is to say how much detail is necessary? It all depends on individual accumulations and inclinations. If there is no theoretical understanding of nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of non-self will develop and so on. However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the dhamma discussion translated by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta': '...The intention is not for us to become attached to names. We must know that all this study about the citta, cetasika, rupa, the vithi citta, the paccaya, this vast number of things would not be in vain if one is able to recognize this instant is the citta or the cetasika not in name but in the characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing. One must therefore know the purpose of studying, of listening. Which is towards anatta,.......' She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on this theme in the discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan, I'd much prefer you to express it!) is that the direct understanding of realities appearing now is more important than the learning of names and lists for the sake of it. The 'balance' will be different for us all. As you comment, one may have no intention to study details and yet study them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is certainly a condition for me to hear and consider more details! Sarah >Dear group, >Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke >about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It seems >theorteical but knowing these details helps us to see them (they are >happening now),and their functions and the conditions for them, and so >break down the idea of a whole. > > >It was really nice to hear Ivan - at the meeting and later when we had >dinner-speaking about some of the more difficult details of Abhidhamma. HE >usually says it is not importasnt to know these details but by conditions >even he is learning them. It is all so anatta: Ivan doesn't particularly >want to learn, but he does - others try so hard (but with lobha)and yet >miss the whole point. 751 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:29pm Subject: Re: Mirror, Mirror.... > Having read both the sutta which Leonardo kindly posted and the article > which Amara refers to using the analogy of the mirror, I fail to see the > connection between the two. Maybe I haven't considered enough. In the > article it points out, as Amara explains, how we look in the mirror as a > daily activity and usually have wrong view and other akusala cittas > (unwholesome mental states) instead of using it as a condition to develop > more kusala. Actually, we could consider any daily activity, such as eating, > in the same way, but perhaps when we look in the mirror there are even more > conditions to take the visible object for self. What do you all think? > > When I read the sutta from the Digha Nigaya, the meaning seems to refer more > to looking at the teachings and triple gem in the mirror...but perhaps we > can say it's the same in the sense that understanding the realities whilst > looking in the mirror is the way to take a mirror to understand the triple > gem which leads to enlightenment.... > > Comments? Dear all, I was hoping that Robert would have answered this by now, he was there when Khun Sujin explained the connection, and could have done it in much more detail. As I understood it, the mirror is the analogy for self knowledge here, with nothing to do with vanity or any other examination but of one's understanding of the truth in relation with oneself. This includes how much we understand the dhamma, and whether one has reached, in the case of the Mahaparinibbana excerpt, any level of enlightenment. So the depth of the sutta is from the level of theoretical examination, to the sati-patthana level right up to the highest level of arahantship. Those who have read thu Mahaparinibbana Sutta would remember that the sutta was the conclusion of an extremely long passage when the Buddha was traveling to the place of his parinibbana and along the way people who had heard that he was leaving came to pay their final respects and to ask him things that he alone could answer. Passing through this province, people came to ask him what happened to those who had passed away, and he had to tell them where each one of about 500 people ended up, having attained certain levels or not, in this world or in some other worlds, from the brahma to hell worlds or not at all, etc. So as the sutta began in the version Leonardo sent us, he said he would teach everyone to be able to see for themselves whether they had attained anything and not wait for anyone to tell them about it. Khun Sujin said it is the same analogy of the mirror used to examine the citta and not the rupa, with at the core, the understanding of the dhamma. Part of the difficulty in the translation is the understanding of the deeper meaning of the Pali as well, for example, she recognized the passage, "He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.' as the pali: savakkhato bhagavata dhammo sandhitthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccattan vetitabbo vinnuhiti much of it is the same, but sandhitthiko is explained as which can be experienced by those who study, (as opposed to evident) akaliko is to bring immediate results (intending the magga citta that is immediately followed by the bala citta, unlike the jhana citta which can only bring birth as a brahma in the next lifetime) and not to simply be timeless in the sense of always modern. opanayiko is to be internalized and adopted, and finally those with panna should realize fully, individually. And in order to have the other two, or the deep faith and respect for the Buddha and the sankha, there must be deep comprehension of the dhamma, which would naturally lead to the other two. Isn't it true that the more we study the more we see the boundless panna of the Buddha and his incredible discovery and teaching of the way out of the eternal samsara? And isn't it true that the sankha without the dhamma ceases to inspire true respect and faith? They become tradition, and respected only when they perform the function of the sankha. So I think that any mention of the mirror in the teachings tends to be about the understanding of the dhamma in each individual and how to see where one stands with the greatest clarity and honesty. As well as a practical reminder that any moment, as Sarah mentioned can lead to sati, and further and even further as panna grows. There are indeed many layers to the dhamma, the same aramanna can be known by many levels of panna, in fact all aramana can! I'm sure others can explain more in detail, Amara 752 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:22pm Subject: Re: names & details --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > > > Dear Robert & friends, > > So we often consider whether it is important to learn about the details in > the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot of abhidhamma but somehow > seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice or understanding of the > teachings. Others may study little but develop more understanding. Who is to > say how much detail is necessary? It all depends on individual > accumulations and inclinations. If there is no theoretical understanding of > nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of non-self will develop and so on. > However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the dhamma discussion translated > by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta': > > '...The intention is not for us to become attached to names. We must know > that all this study about the citta, cetasika, rupa, the vithi citta, the > paccaya, this vast number of things would not be in vain if one is able to > recognize this instant is the citta or the cetasika not in name but in the > characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing. One must therefore know > the purpose of studying, of listening. Which is towards anatta,.......' > > She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on this theme in the > discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan, I'd much prefer you to > express it!) is that the direct understanding of realities appearing now is > more important than the learning of names and lists for the sake of it. The > 'balance' will be different for us all. > > As you comment, one may have no intention to study details and yet study > them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is certainly a condition for me > to hear and consider more details! > > Sarah Dear Sarah, I think that some time ago it would have been a topic for endless discussion between Robert and Ivan, except that you may have seen from the tapes that Ivan is getting to be quite an authority in the abhidhamma! And I think that Robert is keeping a reality check with his children, asking his son on more than a couple of occasions whether he believed the explanations about the dhamma. I think personally that in his infinite wisdom the Buddha manifested the dhamma in great detail so that it must be useful to have knowledge of what he explained, otherwise there are indeed a lot he left out. Whether we have the opportunity to learn them or if we did, to understand them is another matter, but we know that the barest necessity is to know the characteristics of panna and sati and therefore about the development of sati. After that it is the terminologies for the endless realities of life, depending on the individual experiences. If however we wanted to communicate about these different realities, we need a common language in which to indicate the connotations, but people like the paccekabuddha did not because they did not set up a whole community devoted to the study of realities. As you said, it depends on the individual's accumulations whether they wanted or are competent to study the details in any area, but the main idea is still to study the realities that appear themselves and not to worry about terminologies, much as to know is much more important than to just talk about it. Though I experience a lot of lobha as well as chandha in discussing the dhamma, or at least in understanding what people are talking about, intellectually, as well. There's no end to lobha, and there seems to be no end in dhamma terminologies to me, with my memory crammed with bhavanga holes between processes! Still, even I have learned a few words, so far. Amara 753 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 13, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mirror, Mirror.... Amara, Thank you for your clear and detailed explanation of the discussion with Khun Sujin on this point. I had the same query as Sarah. This is very helpful. Jonothan 754 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 10:32am Subject: Hi from Brazil ! Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ... First of all, thank you for your kind words. Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ... > You are our first member from Brazil. Would you like to tell us how you > became interested in the Dhamma ? Of course not, Jonothan ... As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to take a short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in Dhamma but only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve started to assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on what a spiritual path was. As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized from the very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition. So I `ve started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of practice and bought some books, in english of course. I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma in a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and more serious informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who has spent some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma Lectures and some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are almost 20 Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-)) After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself very confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate because I've had the merit to find the right person, at the right time. In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of buying some BPS`s in Kandy. There, me and my future wife, spent after personal suggestion by Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of practice in Kanduboda International Meditation Centre. It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get some first hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the oppportunity to read many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click ! Today, I am upâsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close contact with this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do regularly intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante Gunaratana from Bhavana Society, a Theravadan Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata Dhamma, from Burma. Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist Vihara, in Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven. Puhulwelle Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ... Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism here in Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more about the group in Nalanda's homepage: http://nalanda.cjb.net/ The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows about Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai Lama is a kind of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now Tibetan Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is nowadys one of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago ! So, let me now apologize for the long post ... Ps: By the way, I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - is it out of print ? A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese for discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist psychology, to help her with some obscure (for us) points. Could I post some question to the group on this issue ? Thanks in advance, Metta, Leonardo 755 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil ! Dear Leonardo, A very big welcome to you. I too took a rather roundabout route to finally come to study Dhamma with Achaan Sujin. Originally from New York, I married a Thai and have been living in Bangkok for the past 34 years. Though I had been introduced to meditation from various teachers, I found that I was not really getting anywhere with vipassana meditation as normally practiced in this country. My son, who is a monk at Wat Bavornives, and another fellow monk, suggested that I look up Achaan Sujin at the Dhamma Study website. I did, joined their dhamma discussion on-line and met several of her followers on a trip to San Francisco last May. It was only after meeting them that I decided to come to the Dhamma Center here in Bangkok/Thonburi, and study in earnest with Achaan. This is turning into the most rewarding experience of my life. There are several copies of Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life available at the Center, and if no one has yet sent you one, I'll ask them to do so. Please send us your mailing address. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Leonardo Neves Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil ! > > Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ... > > First of all, thank you for your kind words. > > Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ... > > > You are our first member from Brazil. Would you like to tell us how you > > became interested in the Dhamma ? > > Of course not, Jonothan ... > > As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to take a > short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in Dhamma but > only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve started to > assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on what a > spiritual path was. As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized from the > very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition. So I `ve > started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of practice > and bought some books, in english of course. > I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma in > a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and more serious > informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who has spent > some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma Lectures and > some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are almost 20 > Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-)) > After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself very > confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate because I've had > the merit to find the right person, at the right time. > In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of buying some > BPS`s in Kandy. There, me and my future wife, spent after personal suggestion by > Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of practice in > Kanduboda International Meditation Centre. > It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get some first > hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the oppportunity to read > many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click ! > Today, I am upâsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close contact with > this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do regularly > intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante Gunaratana from > Bhavana Society, a Theravadan > Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata Dhamma, > from Burma. > Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist Vihara, in > Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven. Puhulwelle > Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ... > Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism here in > Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more about the > group in Nalanda's homepage: > http://nalanda.cjb.net/ > The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows about > Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai Lama is a kind > of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now Tibetan > Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is nowadys one > of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago ! > > So, let me now apologize for the long post ... > > Ps: By the way, I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - is it > out of print ? A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese for > discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist psychology, > to help her with some obscure (for us) points. > > Could I post some question to the group on this issue ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Metta, > Leonardo > 756 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 0:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil ! Dear Leonardo, Thanks for all the helpful info...it's all v.interesting and not too wordy at all. Originally I trained as a western psychologist and have worked in the area for many years. The abhidhamma provides all the detailed answers to all the qus one has ever asked. I note Betty is going to make sure you get a copy of ADL asap (is one copy enough?). In the meantime we'd all be delighted to hear any of yr qus and you may get several replies to each! I've also spent a lot of time in Sri lanka including 7mths in a meditation centre similar to Kanduboda. That was in 1974 and was the place where I first came across Nina's excellent writings (no books at that time though) and my first tapes of Khun Sujin. After studying more of the Tipitaka and understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation however and have since spent time listening, considering and reading when I'm not distracted by my usually hectic daily life! (most of my time!) Let's hear those qus! Nice to have you here, Sarah >Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ... > > First of all, thank you for your kind words. > > Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ... > > > You are our first member from Brazil. Would you like to tell us how you > > became interested in the Dhamma ? > > Of course not, Jonothan ... > > As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to >take a >short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in >Dhamma but >only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve >started to >assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on >what a >spiritual path was. As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized >from the >very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition. >So I `ve >started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of >practice >and bought some books, in english of course. > I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the >Dhamma in >a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and >more serious >informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who has >spent >some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma >Lectures and >some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are >almost 20 >Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-)) > After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself >very >confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate because >I've had >the merit to find the right person, at the right time. > In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of >buying some >BPS`s in Kandy. There, me and my future wife, spent after personal >suggestion by >Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of >practice in >Kanduboda International Meditation Centre. > It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get >some first >hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the oppportunity >to read >many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click ! > Today, I am upâsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close >contact with >this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do >regularly >intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante >Gunaratana from >Bhavana Society, a Theravadan >Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata >Dhamma, >from Burma. > Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist >Vihara, in >Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven. >Puhulwelle >Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ... > Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism >here in >Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more >about the >group in Nalanda's homepage: >http://nalanda.cjb.net/ > The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows >about >Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai Lama >is a kind >of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now >Tibetan >Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is >nowadys one >of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago ! > > So, let me now apologize for the long post ... > >Ps: By the way, I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily >Life" - is it >out of print ? A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese for >discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist >psychology, >to help her with some obscure (for us) points. > > Could I post some question to the group on this issue ? > >Thanks in advance, > >Metta, >Leonardo > 757 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 6:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details Dear Sarah and Jon, I got back to Japan to rather a lot of urgent work so it might be a while before I copy the tapes for you. On the question of how much study of the Abhidhamma we need? I think we need a lot more than we think. People are often critical of such study as they think it is only theory and that it cannot be proved. And it is true that it can become a cause for the type of academic pride that often goes along with specialised knowledge. But not everyone who studies Abhidhamma falls into this trap. In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the section on panna called "the soil in which understanding grows" and this includes important details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without some details. If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering and that they are not self, only conditioned realities,is that enough? It is not because our understanding is very weak. Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on this trip. It helps to bring attention to these realities even though they are not fully understood. I think we tend to undervalue theoretical understanding because we all know that direct understanding is a higher level. But correct intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought to be a higher stage, actually encourages dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is hard to prove the connection between theory and practice and yet it is certainly there. Robert > > Dear Robert & friends, > > > > So we often consider whether it is important to > learn about the > details > in > > the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot > of abhidhamma > but somehow > > seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice > or understanding > of the > > teachings. Others may study little but develop > more understanding. > Who is to > > say how much detail is necessary? It all depends > on individual > > accumulations and inclinations. If there is no > theoretical > understanding > of > > nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of > non-self will develop > and so on. > > However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the > dhamma discussion > translated > > by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta': > > > > '...The intention is not for us to become attached > to names. We > must > know > > that all this study about the citta, cetasika, > rupa, the vithi > citta, the > > paccaya, this vast number of things would not be > in vain if one is > able > to > > recognize this instant is the citta or the > cetasika not in name but > in the > > characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing. > One must > therefore > know > > the purpose of studying, of listening. Which is > towards > anatta,.......' > > > > She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on > this theme in > the > > discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan, > I'd much prefer > you to > > express it!) is that the direct understanding of > realities > appearing now > is > > more important than the learning of names and > lists for the sake of > it. > The > > 'balance' will be different for us all. > > > > As you comment, one may have no intention to study > details and yet > study > > them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is > certainly a condition > for > me > > to hear and consider more details! > > > > Sarah > > > Dear Sarah, > > I think that some time ago it would have been a > topic for endless > discussion between Robert and Ivan, except that you > may have seen > from the tapes that Ivan is getting to be quite an > authority in the > abhidhamma! And I think that Robert is keeping a > reality check with > his children, asking his son on more than a couple > of occasions > whether he believed the explanations about the > dhamma. > > I think personally that in his infinite wisdom the > Buddha manifested > the dhamma in great detail so that it must be useful > to have > knowledge of what he explained, otherwise there are > indeed a lot he > left out. Whether we have the opportunity to learn > them or if we > did, to understand them is another matter, but we > know that the > barest necessity is to know the characteristics of > panna and sati and > therefore about the development of sati. After that > it is the > terminologies for the endless realities of life, > depending on the > individual experiences. If however we wanted to > communicate about > these different realities, we need a common language > in which to > indicate the connotations, but people like the > paccekabuddha did not > because they did not set up a whole community > devoted to the study > of realities. > > As you said, it depends on the individual's > accumulations whether > they wanted or are competent to study the details in > any area, but the > main idea is still to study the realities that > appear themselves and > not to worry about terminologies, much as to know is > much more > important than to just talk about it. Though I > experience a lot of > lobha as well as chandha in discussing the dhamma, > or at least in > understanding what people are talking about, > intellectually, as well. > There's no end to lobha, and there seems to be no > end in dhamma > terminologies to me, with my memory crammed with > bhavanga holes > between processes! Still, even I have learned a few > words, so far. > > Amara > > > > 758 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 0:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? Dear Robert, Betty & friends, This is a really interesting subject and I find yr comments on the subject are very pertinent and useful, Robert. Yes, we sometimes meet someone for the first time and feel some 'affinity' or special feeling. I've never really thought about it in dhamma terms before but have just had a chat with Jonothan who suggested this is probably accumulated attachment from many, many lifetimes. Recently I had the experience of being picked out by J's psychic healer(who was treating his tumor) as being the one with special abilities and psychic understanding. I didn't feel too excited as even if one has some special skills, that is all they are. Like a musician with special talents, it doesn't mean that someone with special powers has any more or less understanding than anyone else and attachment to these powers is not helpful. Maybe one reason the psychic healer feels an 'affinity' with me is that I don't attach any special importance to his abilities in an ultimate sense as others around do and as they try hard to develop these skills with so much attachment, they don't get the results they are looking for. It's a bit like Ivan with the abhidhamma, I don't look for or even want these skills but find I have some! It's true as you say that in society we are all so influenced by name and reputation, by appearance and wealth, by the sound of the voice etc. Yes, someone else may say the same words as K.Sujin but because of a different appearance, voice, bodily language not inspire the listeners... It's a very good reminder not to be attached to the teacher or outer details. As you say it's the dhamma that is important and the more sources one can appreciate hearing it from, the more we will learn. We can all learn from your example in this regard, Robert! Best wishes, Sarah >Betty commented that some people seem special. For >example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in >Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she >could feel in his presence. Many people say similar >things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai >Baba etc. >I would elaborate on this a little. >Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas >are conditioned by citta and so the features are more >pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the >eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than >when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas >the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our >smell is better. >However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either >sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still >be having akusala cittas. > >Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great >metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna. > >Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from >the past are more likeable or indeed"special". > >Conversely someone may have little metta, even be >rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding >of nama and rupa. > >I notice many people are impressed by such things. If >this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on >such feelings then many problems will arise. >1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based >on lobha, attachment to such things. >2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in >some things they are right in all. Thus no way to >understand the nature of miccha-ditthi. > >For me I deliberately try not to think about the >special features of a teacher. Some one told me they >love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get >carried away we may not be really considering what she >says. >I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with >leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him >as a teacher. >And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone >says. No matter how reliable they appear. >I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to >learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are - >namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should >attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware >of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala >and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If >we are not then we are not really benefitting from >these kusala vipaka moments. >Robert > > > 759 From: amara chay Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 2:56pm Subject: Re: names & details are > often critical of such study as they think it is only > theory and that it cannot be proved. Dear Robert, I wonder if that is so often the case? I think that the abhidhamma that appear in our lives can all be proven, as the Buddha said, sandhitthiko, and most people believe that once they begin to study realities. Of course the deeper they study the teachings, whether theoretically or through realities appearing, the more evident it becomes. Very often one becomes attached even to the pleasure that comes with sati, which blocks the progress as much as attachment to book learning can become an obstacle to sati arising, however. Then it is useful to remember that true panna comes with detachment and not to be satisfied with what little we have and study even more deeply each moment sati arises, and not to forget that they can arise anywhere, any time with the right conditions. > In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the > section on panna called "the soil in which > understanding grows" and this includes important > details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without > some details. When you have the time could you post this passage for us? > If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering > and that they are not self, only conditioned > realities,is that enough? > It is not because our understanding is very weak. It is true that in the times of the Buddha poeple could understand from just a few words of the teachings, but if you looked at their past lives you could see how much accumulation they had had before that, which would not be like people in this day and age, 2500 years after the teachings have been clearly expounded, and still we have not been able to fully understand them. Still every bit of sati helps, none of it is lost towards the accumulation of panna. > Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on > this trip. It helps to bring attention to these > realities even though they are not fully understood. > I think we tend to undervalue theoretical > understanding because we all know that direct > understanding is a higher level. But correct > intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought > to be a higher stage, actually encourages > dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is > hard to prove the connection between theory and > practice and yet it is certainly there. I would like to suggest that it is because the Buddha was teaching the truth, which can be proven. For some people the details might be needed in order to understand the practice, while for others the practice might have gone further than the technical terms they knew to describe the study, and they knew the realities before they could name them. In either case both could arrive at the same things, because what is described in the teachings is what is real and can be proven as conditions arose. By the way Khun Sujin Spoke of something similar in the explanation of the Samatha-Sutta, towards the first half of the article. Amara 760 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 10:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details > >Dear Sarah and Jon, >I got back to Japan to rather a lot of urgent work so >it might be a while before I copy the tapes for you. no hurry at all....sounds like you're paying the price for that good long trip! >On the question of how much study of the Abhidhamma we >need? >I think we need a lot more than we think. People are >often critical of such study as they think it is only >theory and that it cannot be proved. And it is true >that it can become a cause for the type of academic >pride that often goes along with specialised >knowledge. But not everyone who studies Abhidhamma >falls into this trap. As with all our ather activities, different moments! Moments of kusala, moments of lobha, moments of pride....when people think the abhidhamma is only theory, they don't appreciate the value of the Buddha's teachings for sure. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there is in the value of all the Abhidhamma details. >In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the >section on panna called "the soil in which >understanding grows" and this includes important >details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without >some details. >If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering >and that they are not self, only conditioned >realities,is that enough? >It is not because our understanding is very weak. I think we all agree with this and I was not suggesting for any of us at this time that hearing so little was enough to develop understanding. We all need to hear a lot of details put in many different ways. But as Khun Sujin often says, studying a little and considering in the right way is more useful than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong view. As Shin pointed out recently, this is not hard to do. I think the considering is very important. We may be busy and only have time to read a couple of lines, but we can consider the meaning of the lines during the day, while developing understanding. >Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on >this trip. It helps to bring attention to these >realities even though they are not fully understood. >I think we tend to undervalue theoretical >understanding because we all know that direct >understanding is a higher level. But correct >intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought >to be a higher stage, actually encourages >dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is >hard to prove the connection between theory and >practice and yet it is certainly there. Of course there is a connection. If we hadn't heard and considered quite a lot of theory, none of us would be here. Also, understanding doesn't just go from being theoretical to being direct understanding. We're talking about a gradual development of direct understanding. (Some kinds of understanding will always be theoretical, however, because not all realities appear). Theoretical understanding is the foundation. While studying, however, we need to keep in mind what the purpose is and why we are accumulating the details i.e. to understand more about the anattaness of the realities appearing now. Definitely not in order to collect more details for the sake of collecting more details as one might do in some other study. We all have different accumulations too and this will be reflected in our studies. I would like to add, Robert, that your own study of abhidhamma is an inspiration to us all and we're very glas to benefit from it on this list! Regards, Sarah> >Robert 761 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil ! Dear Beth, Thank you for your kindness. > There are several copies of Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily > Life available at the Center, and if no one has yet sent you one, I'll ask > them to do so. Please send us your mailing address. My mailing address is: R. Piaui, 882/400 Funcionarios Belo Horizonte Minas Gerais - Brazil 30.150-320 Thank you very much, Metta, Leonardo Neves 762 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:20am Subject: meditation Dear Sarah, > Let's hear those qus! So, let me start :-) Why did you say "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ? The more I read the suttas and some Abhidhamma material, the more I think positively in regard of meditation - not only the formal one but also trying to be aware as much as I can of every mind/body event arising and passing away - and also the way I react to those dhammas. For me, the formal practice leads me to a more focused and sharp awareness, and this quality of mind is essential for trying to "see" anicca in every process arising in my daily routine. I think the right balance in sitting and studying will give us more panna. Some years ago I was suffering of the "meditation addiction" - the formal meditation practice was the spiritual practice on its own ... Nowdays I try to be more relaxed and I`m studying more and more to put my practice in a more correct perspective. So this why I' m here - to study and learn from you. Thank you, Metta, Leonardo 763 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 10:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details Dear Amara, I agree with most of what you say however I would be interested in some concrete examples to support your statement that, "while > for others the > practice might have gone further than the technical > terms they knew > to describe the study, and they knew the realities > before they could > name them. In either case both could arrive at the > same things, > because what is described in the teachings is what > is real and can > be proven as conditions arose." I had such ideas in the past but I now think they are wrong. Just what realities could one understand without having learnt of them from the Dhamma? Before we learnt the dhamma we all experience, for example, seeing and color. But to what extent do we understand them? I would suggest- in the Buddhist sense - not at all. It is like many people who do meditation. They train themselves to concentrate on, for instance rupas in the body, and think that because they see that the rupas are changing all the time that they are seeing arise and fall. Not realising that the true seeing of rise and fall is something entirely different. Thus even one moment of satipatthana can only occur during a Buddhasasana (I exclude paccekkabuddhas). At other times anyone can bring attention to rupas, or breathing or any object but there is not the understanding that knows that any moment is conditioned. That understands that sati is entirely anatta, uncontrollable. This understanding (which is sacca nana) has to be very true otherwise one will imagine that focussing on or experiencing certain dhammas is satipatthana. The section in the vissuddhimagga called the soil in which understanding grows includes two whole chapters and is essentilly a summary of the abhidhamma . It includes all the 14 functions of citta - remember we were all having difficulty with this when khun sujin was explaining it in Bangkok. It has to be understood very clearly and yet it is really only the barebones of the Dhamma - we need more more than that. These two chapters preceed the explanation of the vipassana nanas- inferring that such advanced knowledges cannot arise without firm understanding at the level of theory. Of course -as Sarah notes- the most important thing is learning in the right way. Anyone can study these matters and even recite them and give all the right answers. But is there any awareness while learning? But no cause for worry. We can't make ourselves or others understand. However hearing the Dhamma - provided it is true Dhamma not imitation -enough is a condition for wisdom to grow. How fast it will grow is dependent on many factors - none of which are controllable. None of which are self. The more we see that the less "we" are in the way. Nina often says that it is understanding not sati that is important. And this is good to remember. Sati is just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We can't hold on to it. Robert Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ 764 From: amara chay Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 11:13am Subject: Re: names & details I would be > interested in some concrete examples to support your > statement that, "while > > for others the > > practice might have gone further than the technical > > terms they knew > > to describe the study, and they knew the realities > > before they could > > name them. In either case both could arrive at the > > same things, > > because what is described in the teachings is what > > is real and can > > be proven as conditions arose." Dear Robert, I think there are several examples, but one I can think of now is of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and Potthila (spelling?) who were friends and the former, having understood sati-patthana, went to the live in the forest according to his accumulations and became an arahanta. The latter studied the abhidhamma and became expert in theoretical knowledge and had many students and followers, so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how little he knew of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him, but the Buddha stopped him by telling him that his friend had since attained the highest wisdom in experience. You will remember that Potthila became quite upset that he had such a thorough understanding of the dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his students who were arahantas and none would teach him since he was their respected teacher. In the end he asked a samanera to teach him so that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him satipatthana and he became enlightened himself. Sati is > just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why > do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We > can't hold on to it. But without knowledge of the truth about the characteristics of realities as they really are, only accumulated through sati, there can be no condition for the development of panna, nothing else is condition for panna except sati which experiences the characteristics of realities appearing. For sati to arise however, and to realize the different relationships that form the anattaness or to see anatta of realities we take for self there is need to understand the teachings at least to the point where there is condition for sati to arise. You might check this with khun Sujin, who could explain it much better! I would still love to read parts of the passages you mentioned, if you could pick out a short excerpt, Thanks in advance, Amara 765 From: amara chay Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 11:18am Subject: Re: names & details > But without knowledge of the truth about the characteristics of > realities as they really are, only accumulated through sati, there > can be no condition for the development of panna, nothing else is > condition for panna except sati which experiences the > characteristics of realities appearing. I meant to say the panna of the level that can become nana, of course. Amara 767 From: amara chay Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:56pm Subject: Re: names & details > > Nina often says that it is understanding not sati that > is important. And this is good to remember. Sati is > just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why > do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We > can't hold on to it. Dear Robert, I printed out your letter for Tan Achaan to read in the car today and she said you were absolutely correct. She also added that when right understanding arises, sati accompanies it automatically, that it is no use to try to make sati arise. Amara 768 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 1:24am Subject: Update page At Dear friends in the dhamma, We have received a request to add a page with a list of the latest pages to the site and have just finished uploading. All new pages will be added to this list so regular visitors won't have to search the sections individually. Those interested will find the new section in the index page with the flashing 'new' sign, at Amara 769 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear group, A Dhamma friend wrote me the following letter:> The first question is, "is it true that Buddha never > taught meditation?" When I read the Dhamma study group material it almost sounds as > though > if Buddha wanted to teach anything at all, it was > what > is written in the Abhidhamma. In fact i have heard > that originally, the Buddha's written teaching, > consisted > of the Suttas and the Vinaya and that the abhidhamma > was > added later on. And if i am not wrong, the suttas > mention > about Buddha and his congregation of monks, going > once > a year to the forests to meditate. If this is > untrue, there is > also the fact that the vinaya was laid down by the > buddha > himself. That being so, it means that the buddha did > not > discourage 'purposeful conduct' as a means to > achieving > an end. My primary motivation to express doubt is my > conditioned view about the importance of formal > meditation, > but it is also very important to know the real > facts. If the buddha > indeed taught meditation as well as the abhidhamma, > or if he > taught only the abhidhamma, it would make a big > difference to > my approach towards the teachings. My intention is > to keep > a balance between my knowledge of the suttas(this > means > including the teachings of other religions), > abhidhamma, and > the practise of vipassana. I acknowledge the power > of > abhidhamma to explain all experiences, and i believe > that > if applied correctly, it could lead to deep > understanding and > wisdom as is manifested in khun Sujin, .But the > seeming > authority of 'Zen', 'Dzogchen' and the brightness > and wisdom > of 'Achaan Cha' who all stress the importance of > meditation, > has to be explained to me. Also since the practice > of > meditation is to go beyond labeling and > conceptualizing, > and i am intent to move in that direction, is my > confusion > regarding the position of meditation with regard to > abhidhamma, > only due to my own personal lack of understanding of > the > process of meditation? FROM ROBERT: I answered Your questions are very clear and worthwhile. I had almost exactly the same ones for several years until I was able to study and contemplate and meet with Khun Sujin and learn what vipassana really is. The Abhidhamma is certainly not a later addition to the Tipitaka. I know that this is sometimes said- even by monks (who make demerit of a high degree by such statements). It is understandable that people should wonder about this because of the difficulty and the obvious difference between Abhidhamma and the suttas. Nonetheless the entire Theravada tradition, as laid down in the Tipitaka and commentaries, asserts that the Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha. He actually first comprehended it all during the weeks after his enlightenment in Bodhgaya. It is said that only when he came to the last book of the Abhidhamma , the Patthana, did his omniscience have the chance to really show itself. I have been to the site and they have a stone plaque commemorating this place . It is about 20 meters from tha actual place of enlightenment. Anyway I am sure that any doubts you have about abhidhamma will slowly fade as your knowledge and understanding grow. It is important to define what we mean by such terms as "meditation". I have a copy of a new book by Khun Sujin (published by Zolag in London) that on the back cover says that it is "an introduction to insight meditation." Thus it is perhaps a little hasty to say that the Buddha or even Khun sujin never teach meditation. However, Khun sujin doesn't especially like the word, as for most people it implies some special technique that they must rigorously do and that leads to special states. This is not vipassana. Secondly Khun Sujin is most interested in explaining the path of pure vipassana - insight. This is called sukka -vipasssaka, dry insight. She has also excellent understanding of the practice of samattha but her way is that of pure vipassana. The ways to insight can be broadly classified into three: 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and includes all the 38 objects for concentration meditation. 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha and vipassana developed together. 3. pure vipassana. The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha went by either the first or second ways because they had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided we define it as samattha concentration. However only those with great accumulations can do - there were other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only go by pure vipassana. All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but the first two are more complete. They can give many benefits such as powers and also the ability to experinece the fruition of nibbana at will. This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach the last, slightly inferior, way? Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path for those with the least accumulations. And at this time there are only such beings present. Now is a long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had accumulations for the other path this would become clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure vipassana. Many so called teachers try to teach a mix of samattha and vipassana but they do not clealy see the difference between the two. It is vital that we see the difference otherwise we will never see just what the path is. If one thinks he wants to first develop samattha and later vipassana he will have a long, long path indeed. Firstly to do this one must gain mastery of jhanna - meaning the ability to enter different jhannas at will. And jhanna these days is not well understood. It is extremely difficult to attain even the first jhanna - it is very unlikely that anyone could now have mastery. Pure vipassana is nothing other than learning to see namas and rupas as they are now. People often think that they must be calm to have understanding but this is because they do not see that there is only namma and rupa. Insight can come in at any time and understand a moment as anatta whether one feels distracted or calm. The conditions for this are understanding of the conditioned nature of phenomena. We do not have to sit or walk or do anything to have vipassana -it is entirely a mental development. But it takes a lot of listening and study and consideration before the path is seen clearly. You write that your intention is to go beyond labelling. But this intention can be with subtle lobha(a very refined type of desire)and that hinders understanding. Did you pick up a book by Sujin called Realities and Concepts at the foundation? This is a difficult but important book. You see, we do not try to stop thinking or run away from concepts when developing vipassana. Rather we learn to distinguish concept from reality. With regard to the monks life. The vinaya is very helpful as it helps the monks to see danger in the slightest fault. But laypeople , at the moments they develop satipatthana correctly, are in the deepest senses also renouncing . They are renouncing the idea of self- the most difficult thing to give up. Ivan- a friend who has been living in Bangkok for over twenty years- often talks about how citta is just one moment and yet it and the other realities form up these ideas of self and people. You see citta and cetasika have no wish to do anything or be anything. They are entirely disinterested. And yet they have certain functions, just like parts in a computer, that by their nature, are carried out. Panna, wisdom, also, doesn't think "well I must understand this" but by its nature its function is to just understand. This is very hard to see - but it is true. We are nothing more than puppets, but we jerk and move and speak in such a way as to make it seem as if there is something really substantial here. But there are only namas and rupas, so evanescent, so uncontrollable, so alien. There is just so much to write about on these very useful questions but perhaps this will help your consideration. Also there is a short letter I wrote on http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html that gives some extra information. Also an article by Bhikkhu Dhammadhara at www.dhammastudy.com in the beginners section called "BE here now" is very useful. Look forward to more questions . Robert 770 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details Dear Amara, Did you get my letter asking you to put the title "free book " on Dhammastudy? Thanks for the feedback from Acharn Sujin. When I asked for concrete examples I meant what realities- ie name some parammattha dhammas- could be correctly experineced now by people at this time if they had not heard about them from the Dhamma. Those such as Tissa at the Buddhas time were of a different level from us now. You wrote "But without knowledge of the truth about the > characteristics of > realities as they really are, only accumulated > through sati, there > can be no condition for the development of panna, > nothing else is > condition for panna except sati which experiences > the > characteristics of realities appearing. For sati to > arise however, > and to realize the different relationships that form > the anattaness > or to see anatta of realities we take for self there > is need to > understand the teachings at least to the point where > there is > condition for sati to arise" Yes I agree - well put. HOWEVER some might read this and then TRY to have sati because they WANT panna. Still I think you explain the process in a nutshell. Robert > > I would be > > interested in some concrete examples to > support your > > statement that, "while > > > for others the > > > practice might have gone further than > the technical > > > terms they knew > > > to describe the study, and they knew the > realities > > > before they could > > > name them. In either case both could > arrive at the > > > same things, > > > because what is described in the > teachings is what > > > is real and can > > > be proven as conditions arose." > > Dear Robert, > I think there are several examples, but one I can > think of now is > of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and > Potthila (spelling?) > who were friends and the former, having understood > sati-patthana, > went to the live in the forest according to his > accumulations and > became an arahanta. The latter studied the > abhidhamma and became > expert in theoretical knowledge and had many > students and followers, > so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how > little he knew > of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him, > but the Buddha > stopped him by telling him that his friend had since > attained the > highest wisdom in experience. You will remember > that Potthila > became quite upset that he had such a thorough > understanding of the > dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his > students who > were arahantas and none would teach him since he was > their > respected teacher. In the end he asked a samanera > to teach him so > that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him > satipatthana and > he became enlightened himself. > > > Sati is > > just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us > having it. Why > > do we want it? It has gone as soon as it > arises. We > > can't hold on to it. > > . You might check this > with khun Sujin, > who could explain it much better! > > I would still love to read parts of the passages you > mentioned, if > you could pick out a short excerpt, > > Thanks in advance, > Amara > > > 771 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 11:44am Subject: Re: names & details > Did you get my letter asking you to put the title > "free book " on Dhammastudy? Dear Robert, I don't remember, was it in the postings to the group? Never mind, please resend. > Thanks for the feedback from Acharn Sujin. > When I asked for concrete examples I meant what > realities- ie name some parammattha dhammas- could be > correctly experineced now by people at this time if > they had not heard about them from the Dhamma. Those > such as Tissa at the Buddhas time were of a different > level from us now. I have some personal experience about this but I don't think it would be useful to anyone else to discuss it here, I rather think examples from the Tipitaka would be more universal for us to consider, even if arahantship is beyond possibility at this day and age, at least sati-patthana is not. > You wrote "But without knowledge of the truth about > the > > characteristics of > > realities as they really are, only accumulated > > through sati, there > > can be no condition for the development of panna, > > nothing else is > > condition for panna except sati which experiences > > the > > characteristics of realities appearing. For sati to > > arise however, > > and to realize the different relationships that form > > the anattaness > > or to see anatta of realities we take for self there > > is need to > > understand the teachings at least to the point where > > there is > > condition for sati to arise" > Yes I agree - well put. HOWEVER some might read this > and then TRY to have sati because they WANT panna. > Still I think you explain the process in a nutshell. > Robert Khun sujin said so also, as I told you in my last posting. Personally I cannot comprehend such lobha, especially in people who are obviously altruistic and seem so keen on developing kusala, who must have had lower levels of sati arising and yet say they had never had sati arising. Could it be that they think too much and are so preoccupied with 'catching' something wonderful and rare that they do not see the clear characteristics being studied fleetingly yet accumulating in split seconds? No use wondering about other people's minds, but if it helps to say that go slowly and accumulate understanding is best, since they arise together anyway, I say that is also true, each one has his own accumulations, so whatever is best for the individual, as long as panna grows. Besides, I have complete confidence in Khun Sujin's over 30 yrs experience in teaching this delicate, intricate and all englobing subject to believe she knows best the approaches suitable for the best results. By the way, you will be glad to hear that Sukin came to yesterday's discussion, and Sukin, if you are reading this, could you tell us a little aboout your views on our session? Amara 772 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation > >Dear Sarah, > > > Let's hear those qus! > > So, let me start :-) > > Why did you say "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and >understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ? > I think we have to be clear about our purpose in following a meditation practise. For example, right now I am doing some breathing exercises which some might call a meditation. We cannot tell from the outside. But for me, I've got a cold and fever (brought back from Sydney) and almost no voice after teaching all day yesterday and these breathing exercises help. In other words, I am doing them for my health but I have no illusion that they will lead to more wisdom! However, when I lived in the meditation temple in Sri lanka, I was following the mahasi 'vipassana meditation' technique and had also followed the Goenka method. My aim was not for the purpose of improving my health (which the techniques might well be good for), but to develop more awareness and to attain the levels of wisdom and enlightenment listed in the Tipitaka. Indeed, I had Mahasi's book and thought I was doing well in this regard and several senior teachers (inc. Munindra, Goenka himself and chief monk at the temple) encouraged me to think like this too. When I started listening to some early (very bad quality) tapes of Khun Sujin and started reading the manuscript of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. it started to make more and more sense (intellectually only at this time) that there really was no self that could control realities. Nina quotes the passage about the chariot at the beginning of the book which explains that what we take for being a chariot are only the wheels, cogs and other pieces. What we take for self are only nama and rupa, realities which experience objects and realities which do not experience anything. I remember on the first tape I heard (which I listened to many, many times) Khun Sujin was talking to a group of students (inc. Nina and Jonothan!) in a garden in Banares. They hear the sound of a drum beating. She explains that hearing just hears sound, but immediately there is 'carrying on the story' - tor rueng in Thai- (the first Thai words I ever learnt!) and we have a long story of someone beating a drum and what and where they might be. in other words, we live in a world of pannatti (concepts) without knowing it. So if the purpose was to be aware and understand more about these conditioned realities which were appearing all the time and there was no self that could 'force' it or 'speed it up', there was no need to be 'meditating' in a forest in Sri Lanka, cut off from family, friends and my 'normal' daily life. It didn't mean there couldn't be any understanding during the meditation at this place, but if one undertook it for that purpose, it was with wrong view. So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more awareness or understanding. This is rather wordy, Leonardo, but I've enjoyed expressing it in detail for the first time ever! Robert has given some excellent and less 'personal' detail to this qu too. > The more I read the suttas and some Abhidhamma material, the >more I >think positively in regard of meditation - not only the formal one but also >trying to >be aware as much as I can of every mind/body event arising and passing away >- and >also the way I react to those dhammas. > For me, the formal practice leads me to a more focused and >sharp >awareness, and this quality of mind is essential for trying to "see" >anicca in every >process arising in my daily routine. I think the right balance in sitting >and >studying will give us more panna. It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead of trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more important to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these realities. > Some years ago I was suffering of the "meditation addiction" >- the >formal meditation practice was the spiritual practice on its own ... >Nowdays I try to >be more relaxed and I`m studying more and more to put my practice in a more >correct >perspective. So this why I' m here - to study and learn from you. > > Thank you, > >Metta, >Leonardo > As we've said, we're really glad you've found us and we're also happy if anyone questions or disagrees with what we say. That's how we all learn and we often disagree with each other too! It's great to hear of yr keen interest in the teachings! Let's hear those other qus, Sarah > 773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? Betty >... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from >some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor >stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was >something >else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it >must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said. Another angle on this phenomenon. We all have the tendency to be impressed by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual. So the ‘something else’ we perceive might also reflect something about our own bias or understanding. Just think of the very different types whom others regard as possessing some special charisma – Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela, Indian ‘guru’ types. In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others no obvious kusala of any kind. Jonothan 774 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 2:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details Dear Amara, This is interesting and yes, Potthila (correct sp) is a good example of a monk who was very learned in the Tipitaka and preached to large numbers of monks, but failed to win any attinment for himself. The samanera whom he was forced to ask for help once his pride was humbled, was only 7 years old! It also says in my copy of Pali dict of Prop Names that the samanera was sitting doing his needlework at the time! Potthila is a good example of someone who probably didn't have wrong view at the time at all but learning names and details was not sufficient condition for higher levels of understanding to develop. Thank you for bringing it to our attention, Sarah >> >Dear Robert, >I think there are several examples, but one I can think of now is >of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and Potthila (spelling?) >who were friends and the former, having understood sati-patthana, >went to the live in the forest according to his accumulations and >became an arahanta. The latter studied the abhidhamma and became >expert in theoretical knowledge and had many students and followers, >so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how little he knew >of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him, but the Buddha >stopped him by telling him that his friend had since attained the >highest wisdom in experience. You will remember that Potthila >became quite upset that he had such a thorough understanding of the >dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his students who >were arahantas and none would teach him since he was their >respected teacher. In the end he asked a samanera to teach him so >that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him satipatthana and >he became enlightened himself. 775 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:59am Subject: The key is rt understanding Dear Amara & friends, If there is any idea at all of of making sati arise (whether by meditating or reading the Tipitaka or going to India) it shows the clinging to self whether subtle or not so subtle. I have always heard and read that Right understanding is the key, not Right awareness. khun Sujin has explained on many occasions that this is the reason right understanding if the first factor of the eightfold path. If understanding develops (I agree w/ Robert that it must be right intellectual understanding first) then the other cetasikas (mental factors) of the eightfold path develop automatically without having to be concerned about developing them. At each moment of right understanding (whether at level of vipassana or samatha), right awareness at that level accompanies it and so on. The key is always the understanding. It is not only no use to try to make sati arise, it's impossible! I remember at some of the sessions in Sri Lanka (you may have been there, I think), Capt Pereira arranged for khun Sujin to give a talk each day on a different factor of the eightfold path and he wrote out the schedule. Afterwards he complained to me that whatever factor was scheduled, she insisted on talking about right understanding!. Sarah >Dear Robert, > >I printed out your letter for Tan Achaan to read in the car today >and she said you were absolutely correct. She also added that when >right understanding arises, sati accompanies it automatically, that >it is no use to try to make sati arise. > >Amara > 776 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? Dear Jonothan, What then is "our own bias" if not lobha? But that was quite a revelation to me to learn that the perception of extra sensory qualities in some persons who have made high attainments is really a reflection of lobha we cling to. In any case, it does not lead to sati or wisdom. The other day I listened to the tape of the session where that point was discussed with Achaan. We all insisted these perceptions had to be real and cited examples of them: Amara said that many felt the same with a very old Buddha image at her house. When that aspect was finally discussed, Achaan ended the discussion by saying something to the effect that lobha, attachment to self, is so hard to let go of. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? > > Betty > > >... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from > >some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor > >stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was > >something > >else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it > >must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said. > > Another angle on this phenomenon. We all have the tendency to be impressed > by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as > markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual. So the > ‘something else’ we perceive might also reflect something about our own bias > or understanding. Just think of the very different types whom others regard > as possessing some special charisma – Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela, Indian > ‘guru’ types. In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others no > obvious kusala of any kind. > > Jonothan 777 From: amara chay Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 11:45pm Subject: One more for 'Words' Dear friends in the dhamma, We have added 'Sankhara' to the section 'A Few Words' . This time the excerpt comes from the first dhamma discussion held at the foundation on the opening day. Some of our readers have been writing that they found this section useful. If anyone would like to add their favorite passages they would be most welcome to send them to me, in fact we would appreciate it very much. Thanks in advance, Amara 778 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 8:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? A personal story on meeting spiritual people. about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the organisers were very eclectic and considered all spiritual paths pretty much the same. at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name. MOTHER something. Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery enough and basically just what you expect from a spiritual leader. After she left several of the others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc. I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel such things. Robert 779 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? I think this discussion has been worthwhile. We all see the lobha involved in these matters. Now, just to go maybe a little against what I have been saying. Sariputta was attracted to assaji because of his lovely manner. It was partly because of his manner that sariputta had confidence in him and asked him for the teaching- which led to sariputta becoming a sotapanna. But the deeper reason was that sariputta had the great past kamma which was bringing him, inevitably, closer to true Dhamma. Were the cittas when sariputta first saw assaji with lobha? It is possible that at least some of them could have been- in betwen ones with wisdom. But lobha can be upanisaya paccaya that condition kusala. It is complex how things work. Eg someone likes the look or sound of Khun sujin. They go and listen just because of that but later learn Dhamma. When the Buddha came down from teaching Abhidhamma in the devaloka his majesty was seen by all of Jambudipa. He was escorted by devas while walking down the jewel staircase. It is said that almost every being who saw him, except for the enlightend ones, had the wish to be like him. And the commentary to the Abhidhamma notes that the cittas at this time for most beings were lobha! Perhaps this is a surprise- that even seeing the Buddha is a condition for lobha- but such is the nature of dhammas - not even the Buddha can make people have kusala. And lobha is just so common. Whatever, lobha is never wisdom. We cannot stop it arising but it's characteristic can be known. That it attaches, that it is not in any way panna. If we are learning about conditions it does not matter what the reality is whether kusala or akusala, painful or pleasant. They are just dhammas, not us, uncontrollable. Robert 780 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Thank you, Robert. I think you have thought in me when you post this mail :-) Thank you, Metta, Leonardo > Dear group, > A Dhamma friend wrote me the following letter:> > > The first question is, "is it true that Buddha never > > taught meditation?" When I read the Dhamma study > group material it almost sounds as > > though > > if Buddha wanted to teach anything at all, it was > > what > > is written in the Abhidhamma. In fact i have heard > > that originally, the Buddha's written teaching, > > consisted > > of the Suttas and the Vinaya and that the abhidhamma > > was > > added later on. And if i am not wrong, the suttas > > mention > > about Buddha and his congregation of monks, going > > once > > a year to the forests to meditate. If this is > > untrue, there is > > also the fact that the vinaya was laid down by the > > buddha > > himself. That being so, it means that the buddha did > > not > > discourage 'purposeful conduct' as a means to > > achieving > > an end. My primary motivation to express doubt is my > > conditioned view about the importance of formal > > meditation, > > but it is also very important to know the real > > facts. If the buddha > > indeed taught meditation as well as the abhidhamma, > > or if he > > taught only the abhidhamma, it would make a big > > difference to > > my approach towards the teachings. My intention is > > to keep > > a balance between my knowledge of the suttas(this > > means > > including the teachings of other religions), > > abhidhamma, and > > the practise of vipassana. I acknowledge the power > > of > > abhidhamma to explain all experiences, and i believe > > that > > if applied correctly, it could lead to deep > > understanding and > > wisdom as is manifested in khun Sujin, .But the > > seeming > > authority of 'Zen', 'Dzogchen' and the brightness > > and wisdom > > of 'Achaan Cha' who all stress the importance of > > meditation, > > has to be explained to me. Also since the practice > > of > > meditation is to go beyond labeling and > > conceptualizing, > > and i am intent to move in that direction, is my > > confusion > > regarding the position of meditation with regard to > > abhidhamma, > > only due to my own personal lack of understanding of > > the > > process of meditation? > > FROM ROBERT: I answered > > Your questions are very clear and worthwhile. I had > almost exactly the same ones for several years until I > was able to study and contemplate and meet with Khun > Sujin and learn what > vipassana really is. > > The Abhidhamma is certainly not a later addition to > the Tipitaka. I know that this is sometimes said- even > by monks (who make demerit of a high degree by such > statements). It is understandable that people should > wonder about this because of the difficulty and the > obvious difference between Abhidhamma and the suttas. > Nonetheless the entire Theravada tradition, as laid > down in the Tipitaka and commentaries, asserts that > the Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha. He actually > first comprehended it all during the weeks after his > enlightenment in Bodhgaya. It is said that only when > he came to the last book of the Abhidhamma , the > Patthana, did his omniscience have the chance to > really show itself. I have been to the site and they > have a stone plaque commemorating this place . It is > about 20 meters from tha actual place of > enlightenment. > Anyway I am sure that any doubts you have about > abhidhamma will slowly fade as your knowledge and > understanding grow. > > > It is important to define what we mean by such > terms as "meditation". > I have a copy of a new book by Khun Sujin (published > by Zolag in London) that on the back cover says that > it is "an introduction to insight meditation." > Thus it is perhaps a little hasty to say that the > Buddha or even Khun sujin never teach meditation. > However, Khun sujin doesn't especially like the word, > as for most people it implies some special technique > that they must rigorously do and that leads to special > states. This is not vipassana. > > Secondly Khun Sujin is most interested in explaining > the path of pure vipassana - insight. This is called > sukka -vipasssaka, dry insight. She has also excellent > understanding of the practice of samattha but her way > is that of pure vipassana. > The ways to insight can be broadly classified into > three: > 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses > samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and > includes all the 38 objects for concentration > meditation. > 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha > and vipassana developed together. > 3. pure vipassana. > > The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha > went by either the first or second ways because they > had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot > say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided > we > define it as samattha concentration. However only > those with great accumulations can do - there were > other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only > go by pure vipassana. > All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but > the first two are more complete. They can give many > benefits such as powers and also the ability to > experinece the fruition of nibbana at will. > > This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach > the last, slightly inferior, way? > > Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path > for those with the least accumulations. And at this > time there are only such beings present. Now is a > long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline > in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had > accumulations for the other path this would become > clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure > vipassana. > > Many so called teachers try to teach a mix of samattha > and vipassana but they do not clealy see the > difference between the two. It is vital that we see > the difference otherwise we will never see just what > the path is. > > If one thinks he wants to first develop samattha and > later vipassana he will have a long, long path indeed. > Firstly to do this one must gain mastery of jhanna - > meaning the ability to enter different jhannas at > will. And jhanna these days is not well understood. It > is extremely difficult to attain even the first jhanna > - it is very unlikely that anyone could now have > mastery. > > Pure vipassana is nothing other than learning to see > namas and rupas as they are now. People often think > that they must be calm to have understanding but this > is because they do not see that there is only namma > and rupa. Insight can come in at any time and > understand a moment as anatta whether one feels > distracted or > calm. The conditions for this are understanding of the > conditioned nature of phenomena. We do not have to sit > or walk or do anything to have vipassana -it is > entirely a mental development. But it takes a lot of > listening and study and consideration before the path > is seen clearly. > > You write that your intention is to go beyond > labelling. But this intention can be with subtle > lobha(a very refined type of desire)and that hinders > understanding. Did you pick up a book by Sujin called > Realities and Concepts at the foundation? This is a > difficult but important book. You see, we do not try > to stop thinking or run away from concepts when > developing vipassana. Rather we learn to distinguish > concept from reality. > > > With regard to the monks life. The vinaya is very > helpful as it helps the monks to see danger in the > slightest fault. But laypeople , at the moments they > develop satipatthana correctly, are in the deepest > senses also renouncing . They are renouncing the idea > of self- the most difficult thing to give up. > > Ivan- a friend who has been living in Bangkok for over > twenty years- often talks about how citta is just one > moment and yet it and the other realities form up > these ideas of self and people. > You see citta and cetasika have no wish to do anything > or be anything. They are entirely disinterested. And > yet they have certain functions, just like parts in a > computer, that by their nature, are carried out. > Panna, wisdom, also, doesn't think "well I must > understand this" but by its nature its function is to > just understand. This is very hard to see - but it is > true. We are nothing more than puppets, but we jerk > and move and speak in such a way as to make it seem as > if there is something really substantial here. But > there are only namas and rupas, so evanescent, so > uncontrollable, so alien. > > There is just so much to write about on these very > useful questions but perhaps this will help your > consideration. Also there is a short letter I wrote > on http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html that gives > some extra information. Also an article by Bhikkhu > Dhammadhara at www.dhammastudy.com in the beginners > section called "BE here now" is very useful. > Look forward to more questions . > Robert > 781 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Robert and group, > --- DEAR leonardo, > Great to see you joining in the discussion. > Perhaps you won't mind it I comment on your questions > to Sarah. Thank you for your kindness in give me detailed informations and clarifications. > ... What is present apart from mind/body (nama and rupa). > The answer is nothing. > Do we have an idea that events are happening and we > are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self view. Robert, i didn`t understand the last sentence ... I generally think I reading, studying and sitting with a profound sakkya ditthi - it is the way i still am. It woud be more sophisticated to said that my five aggregates are reading, studying and sitting but this is really not the truth - relative truth - in my actual weak Dhamma understanting. I know theoretically that the ego, self, atman, etc don't have any inherent and unconditionally reality, but unfortunately i coudn`t deny my own disturbed perceptions in the way the mind usually works. > This self view is very hard to overcome. Even those > who succeed in mediattaion to the extent of the eigth > jhana and can have it at will- something no one can do > today but very wise poeople of the past could- even > they cannot have even a moment of direct understanding > of dhammas, as they really are, without having heard > the Buddhas teaching. yes, I` ve read it frequently. But my posting wasn`t in this direction. What are the links between samadhi and sati ? I didn` t say jhana and panna. It seems to me that there is a strong correlation between right-samadhi and right-understanding and then the formal sitting practice, in my experience, allows to create the right conditions to improve samma-samadhi and as a consequence, understanting. > We have to be very true to the teaching of the Buddha > -that there is no one, no self at all. When we, for > example, feel rupas in the body do we imagine that > just that is sati? Many people have this delusion. Very well said. I for myself ever misunderstand this issue. I think i didn`t yet grasp in a more practical way the meaning of sati versus manasikara ... > ... I met a man who had been teaching vipassana for over 20 > years on my recent trip. He had listened to Acharn > sujin a great deal and had good knowledge of > Abhidhamma. Nonetheless he taught a practice where his > students walk very slowly and focus on the feelings at > their feet. His reason for teaching this was because > he thinks this helps sati to arise. He told me that > the natural way of Acarn sujin is the right way but > that few people can understand it so he has to give a > technique to help beginners.... I think both of you are right ... Let me tell you a "personal" experience that happened to me when I was at Kanduboda. Afer some days of intensive practice - walking and sitting - one night, while I was doing my walking practice, i`ve realized that only the body was walking - for a short time I wasn`t controlling the situation. In the "second" moment I` ve noticed my mind thinking " there is only the body which walks and the mind percieving this body... Robert i don`t know why this thing occured or if this actually has happnened the way I remember nowdays and, more important, if this experience was something special in the context of deeping my Dhamma understanding. Probably they were some sort of side-effects of a concentrated mind but, apart from the knowlegde that I`ve clung to that experience, this experience brought me some strong confidence in the Buddha-Dhamma. So for us, the beginners, I think this courses and retreats work as "tickets" to the Buddha-Dhamma ... They are compassionate in their essence. Probably if I did not have participate in some of those courses, I would not be in this list discussing and learning from you. > Concentration and sati are different realities. > Concentration arises with sati or even with akusala > and wrongview. One can experience any parammattha > dhamma with concentration but it may be associated > with micchaditthi( wrongview)(and if it is one will be > deluded into thinking this is true awareness). My question is: Is there, in the very beginning, the possibility of the emerging of right-understanding without focusing the mind in a right way - samma-samadhi, not jhana ? As we read in many suttas, some people because their strong wholesome accumulations in the past could, when listening to the Buddha`s words, achieve in that very moment the right conditions to understanting the Dhamma - I think sammasamadhi was one of the mental qualities they had, not specifically jhanna, but of course I can be missing something. As I`ve read until we reach the state of sotapana we all have miccha ditthi. As you said, "Concentration arises with sati or even with akusala and wrongview", but with sati there is samma-samadhi, is it true ? In concentrating the mind with wrong intentions it is not sammasamadhi, isn`t it ? Right-concentration is always connected with Right-Intention and this factor is the one tha qualify our concentration. The five hindrances are only hindrances to concentration or they are also problems to understanding ? > > There is never a moment when there is no citta > expereincing an object: When we meditate attention is > bought to certain realities that we are usually not > particularly concerned with in daily life. Because now > we are more sensitive to such things many people - > guided by their teachers- think that this is what > awareness is. This is delusion. Yes, you are right ! Probably the Kandoboda expericence was a delusion .... > Are the characteristics of the namas and rupas that > arise while sitting different from those at other > times ? I think they are actually different. Most of us, beginners, put more effort and energy in a formal practice that we put in our daily routine. Of course they are not different in essence but when we compare the differences in the minds of a beginner versus a well-learned student, the quality of the many cittas are not the same. In my practice, they are different because out of faith, my mind tend to respond to a sitting section with confidence, faith and some others wholesome cetacikas. Nowdays, I have noticed that I am able to practice in a more continued manner, transporting that quality of mind acquired in my meditation practice to my daily life. So, the sittings are opportunities to "charge the battery". > Sitting is merely a concept -the paramattha dhammas > are real. Whether one feels focussed and sharp or > scattered and blunt there are just dhammas arising > that can or cannot be understood depending on > conditions. The key is that for me and for many other people the formal practice creates a good field to the practice - it is a wholesome Dhamma-practice. I don`t meditate a lot - I actually read more then do my formal practice. > When it is clearly seen that there is no self and once > sati has been aware of even strong akusala(unwholesome > moments) there will be no doubt that awareness can > arise at any time. I did not say that awareness couldn`t arise at any time. I`ve said that the meditation promoves the right conditions for. > I never say don't meditate though- understanding can > arise at any time, even while mediatating. But it > can't if one clings to a situation because this shows > that there is insufficient understanding of what is > real and what is concept. It is a type of silabata > upadana that thinks there is something special one > should do to assist understanding and sati and this > blocks real understanding. > Excuse me but what is silabata upadana ? > With this misunderstanding one can easily mistake the > results of concentration for vipassana nana- and if a > teacher confirms one in his delusion then it can > become like cement. It needs a jackhammer to break up > such ideas. Yes, for sure ... Thank you Robert Metta, Leonardo 782 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Sarah, > I think we have to be clear about our purpose in following a meditation > practise. For example, right now I am doing some breathing exercises which > some might call a meditation. We cannot tell from the outside. But for me, > I've got a cold and fever (brought back from Sydney) and almost no voice > after teaching all day yesterday and these breathing exercises help. In > other words, I am doing them for my health but I have no illusion that they > will lead to more wisdom ! Yes, very beautiful way to teach :-). I do my sitting practice with the purpose of understand, not to calm and relaxe my mind and body. I can see your intention in not putting to much emphasis in the formal practice. Nowdays, the word meditation doesn`t make any sense, because it is used for a great variety of techniques and it has a noise new-age flavour. > > However, when I lived in the meditation temple in Sri lanka, I was following > the mahasi 'vipassana meditation' technique and had also followed the Goenka > method. My aim was not for the purpose of improving my health (which the > techniques might well be good for), but to develop more awareness and to > attain the levels of wisdom and enlightenment listed in the Tipitaka. > Indeed, I had Mahasi's book and thought I was doing well in this regard and > several senior teachers (inc. Munindra, Goenka himself and chief monk at the > temple) encouraged me to think like this too. > When I started listening to some early (very bad quality) tapes of Khun > Sujin and started reading the manuscript of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. it > started to make more and more sense (intellectually only at this time) that > there really was no self that could control realities. Nina quotes the > passage about the chariot at the beginning of the book which explains that > what we take for being a chariot are only the wheels, cogs and other pieces. > What we take for self are only nama and rupa, realities which experience > objects and realities which do not experience anything. I remember on the > first tape I heard (which I listened to many, many times) Khun Sujin was > talking to a group of students (inc. Nina and Jonothan!) in a garden in > Banares. They hear the sound of a drum beating. She explains that hearing > just hears sound, but immediately there is 'carrying on the story' - tor > rueng in Thai- (the first Thai words I ever learnt!) and we have a long > story of someone beating a drum and what and where they might be. in other > words, we live in a world of pannatti (concepts) without knowing it. > > So if the purpose was to be aware and understand more about these > conditioned realities which were appearing all the time and there was no > self that could 'force' it or 'speed it up', there was no need to be > 'meditating' in a forest in Sri Lanka, cut off from family, friends and my > 'normal' daily life. It didn't mean there couldn't be any understanding > during the meditation at this place, but if one undertook it for that > purpose, it was with wrong view. Sarah, suppose you resolve to travel again to Sri Lanka. With your understanding acquired all these years by listening Dhamma Talks, reflecting and pondering on Khun Sujin`s words, what will be the result ? Did you try this ? Why not ? I think you have created differents conditions. I really don` t see any conflict in the formal practice and the way you practice - both are without a self controlling and forcing any progress. In fact I think they are complementary. > So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more > awareness or understanding. Yes, but if "you' only do sitting in a long retreat not develop nothing. For me a long retreat puts the Noble Eigthfold Path into life also. > It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead of > trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more important > to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood > clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these > realities. Yes you are right - there is a strong I-feeling in me ! The problem is that i can not grasp in a more profound sense what you beautifully wrote. I can not experience it and I suppose that only theoretical knowleged doesn`t works. But I`m sure i am missing the point. > As we've said, we're really glad you've found us and we're also happy if anyone questions or disagrees with what we say. That's how we all learn and we often disagree with each other too! It's great to hear of yr keen interest in the teachings! > Let's hear those other qus, > Sarah With your help, I certainly will penetrate the meaning of this " it is more important to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these realities" Thank you, Metta, Leonardo 783 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:02pm Subject: Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Friends in Dhamma, This morning I was honored by a call from Achaan Sujin. Her call was actually a type of paccaya for sati to arise and for that I am very grateful (being grateful, a cetasika arising later, is lobha, but better that lobha than others). Please read the message below and if you have any views on the question posed, please share them with us. Many thanks. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala To: amara chay Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Nama-dhatu > Hi, Amara, > Great, am relieved that I did understand the ahetuka and sahetuka correctly. > This morning I was honored by a call from Achaan Sujin. Unfortunately, I had > just woken up and was still in a daze. So when I heard her say it was Sujin > (she didn't call herself Achaan and that is so wonderfully typical of her > sense of humility: she has so many virtues to emulate) it didn't register > right away who I was talking with. But she had called up to make sure that I > understood that though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, it does not > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned realities, arising during it. > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises at/after (?) attaining Nibbana. > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me next week. For, how can panna > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if panna IS a conditioned cetasika? > > > > 784 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:18pm Subject: Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Friends in Dhamma, For the past 2 weeks at the Center, new students have come to learn Dhamma. Achaan both times asked me to explain what we have been learning to the new students. Each time, the teachings become clearer for me, even though it seems like we are repeating elementary lessons over and over. So, please read the message below and share any comments with all of us. Many thanks and metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala To: amara chay Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Nama-dhatu > HI, Amara, > Was disappointed to have missed the last part of the session, but the > performance, part of the 2nd festival of ballet and opera, at the Thai-Japan > cultural center. . . > > How does all that translate into Paramatha Dhammas? It was a wonderful lobha > experience, and of course, it begins and ends and only memory (sanna > cetasika) is left. With that understanding of its impermanence (anicca), it > is realized that such performances are really not that important and in no > way lead to the development of wisdom, unless such analysis as this is made > from it. > > In regard to the previous 2 sessions: it has been reinforced more than ever > that review is an essential part of learning the dhamma, as it is with > anything one can learn. First, I get to test my understanding by having to > put the teachings into my own words, in order to explain it to the student. > Also, I can find out whether my explanation is clear to them as well (It was > not clear to Shin, but was it clear to you and others?) Second, when the > elementary aspects are discussed again, and again, new understanding arises > each time, even if the same material has been repeated many times. For > instance, I got a clearer understanding of sahetuka and ahetuka than I had > before: finally understood why moha mula citta is ahetuka. Ignorance can > rise alone, without other hetus, but the other hetus must have ignorance > arising with them since they are based on ignorance. Hence, other hetus are > sahetuka, arising with other hetus (with ignorance). But moha can be both > ahetuka and sahetuka. Woops, that was in the week before that girl came, but > it was still a review of those concepts. Not sure if its clearly written, > although it is clear in my mind. If there are any misunderstandings here, > please clear them up, then I can post this on the website. > > See, am still unsure of my understanding and am thus hesitant to post my > thoughts on the site. > > With metta, > Betty > 785 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? Dear Robert, Thank you ever so much for sending along a copy of Taking Refuge in Buddhism. I shall give this to my friend who learns very quickly, but has no time to attend our sessions at the Center. She can, however, read during breaks, etc., just as you did when you had that very heavy work in carpentry, I think it was. With metta, Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people? > > > A personal story on meeting spiritual people. > about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first > interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the > organisers were very eclectic and considered all > spiritual paths pretty much the same. > at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who > was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name. > MOTHER something. > Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of > her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery > enough and basically just what you expect from a > spiritual leader. After she left several of the > others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that > they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc. > I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the > connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel > such things. > Robert > 786 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Leonardo, I think we are all going to profit a lot from these discussions. You are really considering carefully what I wrote, thank you. It doesn't matter too much whether you agree or not- it is the consideration that counts. And I will certainly try to give the same careful thought to your comments. There is no "we" who can change our thinking, no one who can decide "yes, this is the right way, now I see"; All thinking and view- whether right or wrong -arises by different conditions. I will look over your comments in the next day or two and make a reply. Again, Thank you very much for your participation. Robert 788 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 2:28pm Subject: Free book, Dear friends in the dhamma, At we have added a page for Robert's free book offer, anumodana, Robert! DSSFBED group, Khun Sujin has moved the time of discussion up to 1:30 pm. this Saturday, hope you can make it. Please tell your friends, Amara 789 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Leonardo, > Sarah, suppose you resolve to travel again to Sri Lanka. With your >understanding acquired all these years by listening Dhamma Talks, >reflecting and >pondering on Khun Sujin`s words, what will be the result ? Did you try this >? Why not >? I think you have created differents conditions. > I really don` t see any conflict in the formal practice and the >way you >practice - both are without a self controlling and forcing any progress. In >fact I >think they are complementary. > Thanks for reading my wordy 'story'. I've been fortunate to have the opportunity to return to Sri Lanka a few times since that long stay. Twice I went with khun Sujin on a dhamma discussion trip and twice I've been with Jonothan for a beach and relax trip, visiting one or two friens and Bhikkhu Bodhi, too on one of these trips, but confident that when I'm having fun in the waves that there are also realities to be known and at that time, that is the place to develop understanding. In other words I don't have any idea of one place or time being the right one for my practice. If I enjoyed sitting in a meditation centre as much as I enjoy splashing in the waves, I might do that, but I don't! Now, reding these messages is something I enjoy and find very useful for reminding me about realities. Neither I or anyone else creates the conditions. As you say there is no self controlling. Like you said, before you used to spend more hours following your meditation practice, but by conditions, as you hear and consider more dhamma, you spend more time listening and considering and less time 'sitting', not by controlling but by conditions. > > So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more > > awareness or understanding. > > Yes, but if "you' only do sitting in a long retreat not >develop nothing. >For me a long retreat puts the Noble Eigthfold Path into life also. > > > > It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead >of > > trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more >important > > to hear and consider about different realities which need to be >understood > > clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these > > realities. > > Yes you are right - there is a strong I-feeling in me ! The >problem is >that i can not grasp in a more profound sense what you beautifully wrote. I >can not >experience it and I suppose that only theoretical knowleged doesn`t works. >But I`m >sure i am missing the point. > you are not missing the point at all. The fact that you realise at some level that there is a strong I-feeling is a very big step in the right direction. Don't try to 'grasp' the meaning...sometimes we have to hear the message many, many times (as Betty is suggesting) and in many different ways. When I first returned to England from that time in Sri Lanka, I had a set of Khun Sujin's tapes from Bangkok and I listened to the same tapes a hundred times I should think. That's why I still remember them so well! I may have been a very slow learner, but few of us just 'catch' the meaning because of the very strong I-feeling you mention. There may well be some right understanding developing on a long retreat, but it will be in spite of the idea that sitting and concentrating on sensations (or whatever meditation object) is the way to develop understanding rather than because of this practice. In just the same way there may be understanding developing in those waves, but not because of any idea that the waves are the key factor. In fact, even if we have the idea that there should be more understanding while we're on a trip to the Holy Places or in a Buddhist discussion like now, this can also show our clinging/wrong view to the idea of self and situation. The key is the understanding of realities always! > > With your help, I certainly will penetrate the meaning of this " >it is more >important > to hear and consider about different realities which need to be >understood > clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these > realities" >>Thank you, >Metta, >Leonardo > This already shows you're well on in the right direction. Usually beginners think they already know about impermanence and just want to hear more about nibbana and future lives. You realise that it's essential to know more about different realities....This is the only way to break down the idea of self. I know Robert will be writing some good detail and we all try to help each other. We all look forward to hearing more from you! best wishes and metta too Sarah> > 790 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: meditation Robert Just a comment on an earlier posting of yours when you said- > This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach > the last, slightly inferior, way? > > Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path > for those with the least accumulations. And at this > time there are only such beings present. Now is a > long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline > in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had > accumulations for the other path this would become > clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure > vipassana. There are in addition other reasons which may explain why Khun Sujin talks about vipassana so much more than samatha (or, to put it another way, why it is so much more worthwhile to have the development of vipassana, rather than samatha, as our goal in this lifetime). As we all know, vipassana is the highest form of kusala and is the part of the teachings that is unique to the Buddhas. We are privileged to be born at a time when the teachings dealing with vipassana are extant, and are doubly privileged in that we have the accumulations to comprehend that teaching. We should make the most of the rare opportunity that presents itself to us. After all, there will be plenty of lifetimes in the future when there will be the opportunity to develop samatha but no Buddha-Dhamma to be studied. Jonothan 791 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:15pm Subject: Re: meditation Leonardo, I have been following the interesting exchange between yourself, Sarah and Robert. Do keep it up. I was also reflecting today on your original question to Sarah- > Why did you say "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and >understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ? I think most of us started out with an interest in meditation. And the reason we lost interest was the same in every case. We came to realise that meditation was not the practice taught by the Buddha and therefore could not lead to the same goal as that urged by the Buddha. Many of those who teach and practice meditation may well believe that their practice is supported by the suttas and the abhidhamma (others are content to rely pretty much on their teacher's assurance). But a careful reading of the suttas shows that the Buddha did not instruct his listeners to undertake a formal practice of any kind. I see that you are a keen reader of the suttas, and this is to be highly commended. Perhaps when you read the suttas in future you might like to see if what I have said is correct. The practice taught by the Buddha is the understanding of the nature of realities, ie, the realities appearing at the present moment. It is by developing this understanding that unwholesome qualities can be eventually eradicated. The realities that are to be understood by the understanding are there to be studied now; what is lacking for us all is the understanding of them. The realities that appear during a formal practice are no different. What is different about a formal practice is the way one *perceives* (thinks about) those realities. But this is not same as the development of the *understanding* of realities. The difference is subtle and difficult to appreciate, but crucial. Jonothan 792 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 1:30am Subject: NYC Dear friends in the dhamma, Not long ago Peter wrote in our guest book, Record 65 Name: Peter Steadman From: New York Time: 2000-09-12 12:09:47 Comments: Greetings from NY! Congratulations on your site. Say HI for me to all the members of A. Sujin's Wednesdays English study group! Are there any other members in NYC right now? See you in Cambodia in Dec. **** and today I received this message below from one of our friends who was one of the organizers of Khun Sujin's trip to the States last year, nicknamed O (as in ooh). She is also very active in the discussion groups in Frisco and Fresno, and it should be very informative as well as enjoyable to have a discussion with her and Peter if you are in the NYC area. Please contact them at their e-mails if you are interested: **** From: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:46:38 EDT Dear Amara: This morning I was browsing through your guest book. Found someone in NYC name Peter Steadman who apparently is going to Cambodia also. I wonder if I can get in touch with him? Simply because I am going to New York City twice a year for business. I'm due to go next month, may be we can have a session in English while I'm there... Best regards, O **** Have a great time and lots of dhamma understanding, Amara 793 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC Dear Amara, thanks for this posting. I'm really glad to hear of anyone going to Cambodia who'll be joining the English discussions w/ K.Sujin & Nina & the rest of us while we're there..! If you email these two, would you encourage them to join this list too? You may remember Soli who is based in NY. We no longer have his contact details. We'd wanted to mention this list to him but have no way of contacting him. Peter Swan would know (I think Ivan has Peter's email?!?) Sarah > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >Not long ago Peter wrote in our guest book, > >Record 65 > Name: Peter Steadman > From: New York > Time: 2000-09-12 12:09:47 > Comments: Greetings from NY! Congratulations on your site. Say HI >for me to all the members of A. Sujin's Wednesdays English study >group! Are there any other members in NYC right now? See you in >Cambodia in Dec. > >**** > >and today I received this message below from one of our friends who >was one of the organizers of Khun Sujin's trip to the States last >year, nicknamed O (as in ooh). She is also very active in the >discussion groups in Frisco and Fresno, and it should be very >informative as well as enjoyable to have a discussion with her and >Peter if you are in the NYC area. Please contact them at their >e-mails if you are interested: > >**** > >From: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:46:38 EDT >Dear Amara: >This morning I was browsing through your guest book. >Found someone in NYC name Peter Steadman who apparently >is going to Cambodia also. I wonder if I can get in touch with him? >Simply because I am going to New York City twice a year for >business. I'm due to go next month, may be we can have a session in >English while I'm there... >Best regards, >O > >**** > >Have a great time and lots of dhamma understanding, >Amara > > > > 794 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:27pm Subject: Re: NYC If you email these two, would you encourage them to > join this list too? Dear Sarah, I have, especially since Peter used to attend some of our discussions at the foundation. I told him he could say hi to everyone himself on the list and not to wait til Cambodia for dhamma discussions. > You may remember Soli who is based in NY. We no longer have his contact > details. We'd wanted to mention this list to him but have no way of > contacting him. Peter Swan would know (I think Ivan has Peter's email?!?) I think I remember Soli but not Peter Swan, but I did not know Soli was also in NY. Could you find out and perhaps give him their e-mail addresses? By the way, I had forgotten all about Captain Perrera and his complaint about Khun Sujin's stressing the understanding of the dhamma, thanks for sharing that amusing incident! Amara 795 From: sotujana Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 9:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute. I live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have recently started a Dhamma-oriented page: http://www.satipatthana.org/ though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . . Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is listed below -- Satisotujana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219147222239237196192043241114211077205143010157 797 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 10:55pm Subject: Re: NYC --- "sotujana" wrote: > I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute. I live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have > recently started a Dhamma-oriented page: > http://www.satipatthana.org/ > though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . . > > Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is listed below -- > Satisotujana > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219129208071 Hi! I was so glad to hear from another member of the group I have forwarded your message to O just now! I'm sure she and Peter would be delighted to meet you and hope you will have a great discussion next month! By the way, I see that you have a website, and as I am in charge of the foundation's website, please let us know if we could be of use to you. Recently we have sent some articles to other sites with the understanding that they could put it on the web (but printing rights are rserved although permission for even that could be arranged case by case as requested). Hoping to hear from you again soon, Amara 798 From: sotujana Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: NYC >Recently we have sent some articles to other sites with the >understanding that they could put it on the web (but printing rights >are rserved although permission for even that could be arranged case >by case as requested). >Amara Hi Amara, thanks for writing -- My site is narrowly focussed to deal explicitly with the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas and related practice. If any of your articles directly address the Suttas in question or mindfulness as a practice, yes, I would be happy to mount them on my site. Please let me know -- thanks -- Satisotujana 799 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:37pm Subject: Re: NYC > My site is narrowly focussed to deal explicitly with the Satipatthana and > Anapanasati Suttas and related practice. If any of your articles directly > address the Suttas in question or mindfulness as a practice, yes, I would > be happy to mount them on my site. Dear friend in the dhamma, I have just visited your well organized site, I am sure it will grow very rapidly. At we are studying precisely satipatthana, according to the Tipitaka, including the two suttas you mentioned, but it may not be what you intend for your site. It would be better if you visited our site and see if there is anything you might be interested in. Our masterpiece remains the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket in the advanced section although you will find other short articles in the same section. If you have any topics you would like to discuss after reading anything anywhere in the site, we would love to hear from you, nothing is as interesting as a good discussion and even argument, to reinforce one's understanding, we believe. I hope you will find the discussion in NY of interest, and to hear from you again soon, Amara 800 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] One more for 'Words' Dear Amara & Varee, I look f/w to reading this soon...and really appreciate all your hard work in making these discussions available! I'm always a little behind! Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large collection of letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people don't have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies, keeping back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have copies of a large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are missing or difficult to read. Also, they don't need translating! Sarah > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >We have added 'Sankhara' to the section 'A Few Words' >. This time the excerpt comes from the >first dhamma discussion held at the foundation on the opening day. >Some of our readers have been writing that they found this section >useful. If anyone would like to add their favorite passages they >would be most welcome to send them to me, in fact we would >appreciate it very much. > >Thanks in advance, > >Amara > 801 From: amara chay Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 0:53am Subject: Re: One more for 'Words' > Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large collection of > letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people don't > have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies, keeping > back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have copies of a > large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are missing or > difficult to read. > > Also, they don't need translating! Dear Sarah, That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think? Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one! She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will handle the internet/international side for the general public which the foundation does not do at the moment. But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted to have more of Nina's work! Thanks in advance, Amara 802 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words' Dear Amara, yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are literally hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them over the years too and may also have suggestions. S. > >Dear Sarah, > >That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound >forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think? >Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at >least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one! >She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the >foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are >setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations >for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which >provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or >have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will >handle the internet/international side for the general public which >the foundation does not do at the moment. > >But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted >to have more of Nina's work! > >Thanks in advance, > >Amara > 803 From: amara chay Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:18pm Subject: Re: One more for 'Words' --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > Dear Amara, > > yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are literally > hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them over the > years too and may also have suggestions. > S. Dear Sarah, Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail, but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here or in private about this. Anumodana, Tom! Amara 804 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:54am Subject: new members Dear Sotujana, Good to have you on the list even if you don't feel you have much to contribute....hope you find the list of interest/use anyway. We all enjoy any different comments or opinions or even quotes for consideration, so we hope to hear more from you from time to time. If you feel like giving us more background/info about yourself and your interest in dhamma, that would be good to hear too. The same applies to any other new members. Good luck with yr website. Sarah > >I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute. I >live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have >recently started a Dhamma-oriented page: >http://www.satipatthana.org/ >though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . . > >Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is >listed below -- >Satisotujana >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219147222239237196192043241114211077205143010157 > > > 805 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:43am Subject: ads Dear Amara & Tom, actually we tried to do this ourselves at the outset, but after sending the visa & other details, nothing happened and we got no further reply! Hopefully, Tom will have more success! I'm sure everyone will be happier w'out the ads! Thanks for passing on the messages. Sarah > >Dear Sarah, > >Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail, >but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay >E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and >Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here >or in private about this. > >Anumodana, Tom! > >Amara > 807 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:47am Subject: NYC meeting is on Dear Amara Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted sotujana and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited to meet and have the dhamma talk. I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was nobody there may be the time was different. I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong? at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December hope to see you all. regards, o 808 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:28am Subject: Abhidhamma book by nina Dear friends at egroupdiscussion This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by khun nina. think it'd be better if I send it to him? (if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here and he's in Texas. Also he can print more reading materials from the website as well. regards, O 810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC meeting is on Dear o(?) It is very nice to hear that you, peter and sotujana are meeting soon. When sarah and Jon started this discussion site I think it was a hope that meetings such as this could come about. And thank you for offering to send ADL to Alex. I am sending Buddhism in daily life and another book today, also. (You have lots of reading to enjoy Alex) Robert --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Amara > > Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted > sotujana > and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited > to meet and have the dhamma talk. > > I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there > was > nobody there may be the time was different. > > I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups > discussion > have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong? > at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in > December > hope to see you all. > regards, > o > > 811 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:33am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words' Dear Sarah and Amara, Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them, that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing which ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the web page? or this discussion group? Pinna > ---------- > From: amara chay > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words' > > > --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" > wrote: > > Dear Amara, > > > > yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are > literally > > hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them > over the > > years too and may also have suggestions. > > S. > > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail, > but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay > E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and > Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here > or in private about this. > > Anumodana, Tom! > > Amara > 812 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina Dear K. O, Hope all is well. Many thanks to you and Jack that I have been studying with Achaan these past few months. Will you be coming to Bkk with the group from the States as well? It will be good to see you and Jack again. That would be wonderful if you can send Alex a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life since postage from here is expensive. Many thanks, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=014056180182229031138098203067229241071230204046167121181 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:28 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina > > Dear friends at egroupdiscussion > This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran > who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by > khun nina. > think it'd be better if I send it to him? > (if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here > and he's in Texas. > Also he can print more reading materials > from the website as well. > regards, > O > > 813 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:09am Subject: Books Dear friends in the dhamma, I'm sorry to say that the person who had volunteered to arrange the mail order section for the Foundation books in our website has had some personal problems as well as is moving his office so he has had no time to do it for us and we will have to wait a little longer. By the way, Tom, could you advice me on this, perhaps through my private mail? I need a nice and secure program because although all our books are free but there will be shipping and handling costs and some people have contributed to the printing expenses already so we should prepare for those also. In the meantime, really anumodana with everyone's kusala cetana in helping out with the distribution, as always, it is wonderful kusala since dhamma dana is the highest form of giving, according to the tipitaka! Amara 814 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life > I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had > difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the > Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address: > > Alex Tran > 1625 Vinecrest Cir. > Garland, TX 75042 > U.S.A. > > I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the > postage. Please tell me how much it should be. Dear Alex, Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my apologies as Webmaster of . Out books are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow members of the group. In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies, but the version on the web is being revised for publication and therefore may still have some minor mistakes. Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon, Amara 815 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Robert, Sarah, Jonothan and friends, Sorry for may delay in posting to you, but during the week i do not have enough time to write in english - why don't you speak portuguese ? Also I had the time to think deeply on your postings. I thank you very much to read my postings and answer them so kindly. > > Do we have an idea that events are happening and > > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self > > view. I didn't understand the correlation between the first sentence and the second ... >> Compassion is always kusala. Now I have friends who > are Mormons. They teach me about christianity and tell > me I should love Jesus etc. Their demeanor is very > kind and their intention is, in aconventioanl sense, > good. But at the level of paramattha dhammas what is > really present when they talk about GOD? It is > miccha-ditthi associated with lobha, thus akusala. The > only way we can see whether something is truly > compassionate is by studying paramattha dhammas. In > reality there is no meditation center, no teacher. > This is concept, merely story. At times you may hear > true Dhamma but at other times something wrong. > Different moments. There are many levels of compassion. Of course the more profound is our understanding of realities, the more compassion is pure. I really believe (not the best word) that retreats also promote right conditions for mental-develop (bhavana) and understanding (panna). If we can see things as they really are in any circunstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a retreat with detachment with regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself , etc ... theses are conditions, of course depending of the accumulations we have, for panna arises. > I see that learning at these courses is a condition > for you to want to study more. It is upanissaya > paccaya. But many people go to these courses and never > go any further. They get attached. Why do you want to > learn more ? What is different. The answer is because > of accumulations developed over aeons that lead you > on. Also there are people who became attached in reading, discussing, teaching, learning and they don't go ahead - i.e, some scholars. The main problem is not the object we clung to but the clinging itself. I want to study more for understand and put in practice in my daily life this knowledge. The meditation itself is not the goal, it is only a very good tool. > > As I`ve read until we reach the state of > > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi. > > But it is gradually eroded away. It is not that > becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where one > moment you believed there was a self and then you see > there is no self. Yes, but it seems to me that until we reach that goal, miccha ditthi is present and there is probably interferences in the way we percieve the path. > The five hindrances are only hindrances to > > concentration or they are also problems to > > understanding ? > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for > awareness to understand. Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of Satipathana training. But i'm asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges to a mind full of hatred (i.e. many lines of agressive emotions, mental verbalizations, uneasy, discomfort) Has it the energy to penetrate of those strong dhammas ?For example, the practice of Mahasi's method of mental noting enable us to concentrate on all of these dhammas. In concentrating the mind through this practice, we can see that the intensity and quality of your understanding is also developed. So for me the more we gain concentration - i do not say the jhana level - the more we create conditions for understanding. If we cling to this is it is due to our lack of spiritual maturity and not a problem in retreats, meditation technique in itself. > I have heard Khun Sujin reply a few times to people > who think they are too busy to even contemplate the > teachings that just before they sleep or if the waken > during the night is a good time to remember and think > over Dhamma. We could consider well consider this > comparable to formal meditation - if we want to define > it as such. Also I like to walk sometimes in the > forest near my city and such times are often conducive > to contemplation. Sometimes I sit in the forest and > thoughts of Dhamma arise - is this meditation ? I think it is, althought it is not necessary to sit cross-ledged. For me too the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all day long, not during the meditation practice. > I wake in the morning lying in bed and ponder, at times. > At other times I am very busy- maybe teaching, even > talking with people and awareness arises , sometimes > supported by moments of remembering Dhamma, and > sometimes not so clearly related to thinking. It seems to me that ^you^ have created rigth conditions due to your profound Dhamma knowledge. > We have to learn to have understanding often. We have > so many objects to be aware of. > One example in the visudhimagga XIV62: it talks about > verbal intimation - "the mode and the alteration in > the consciousness-originated earth element that causes > that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and > alteration are a condition for the knocking together > of clung to matter..." This is not just theory - it > happens when we talk to others. Speech is merely these > elements, not us. The Buddha taught them so that > there can be awareness of them. So that they are not > taken for self. We should learn to see them with > awareness. They can be known. Very beautiful and meaningful. Thanks ... > Do we try to stop talking because we think we should be silent to have > awareness ? Sometimes it is good to be silent but > sometimes isn't this clinging to a situtation, to > rules. Is it a refined type of silabataupadana > (clinging to rule and ritual) ? Is it trying to not do a formal practice another rule and ritual ? Our minds are very smart ... If we try to emphasize too much that there are no room in the Dhamma-Vinaya to a formal meditation practice, there are no liberty to people go to retreats. It will be another set of rules, isn't it ? > What I notice about serious meditators- and I do find > a lot of them to be rather serious (I got very serious > myself when I thought I had to bring awareness up)- > is a belief, however subtle it may be, that thinking > is something that is either to be avoided or at least > something that is not the real (Dhamma wise) thing. they way i try to see in my practice, thinking is only thinking ... > Please correct me if I am wrong. They are keen to > concentrate on paramattha dhammas - which they often > limit to only a few objects, usually connected with > rupas in the body (although they may mention other > dhammas as being suitable, these are given mere > lip-service). > However focussing attention in this way is really a > type of concentration exercise . If it is within the > 38 objects given by the Buddha it may be, if the > cittas are with detachment, samattha. But even if it > is samattha - and no guarantee that it is- this is not > the eightfold path. This afternoon i read the chapter 6 - Concentration (ekaggata) of the book Cetacikas - Nina van Gorkon (wonderful book) and the way i undestood she didn't put things the way you put. With regard of Samma-samadhi, she writes ^ ... ekaggata wich accompanies kusala citta is also called samma-samadhi. Although wrong concentration and right concentration are both ekaggata cetacikas their qualities are different. Samma samadhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are many levels of right concentration... ^. So for me ^the wholesome way and with the right way^ are the differences between rigth and wrong practice. It is not a matter of if we are sitting in formal meditation or not - it really doesn't matter. > The difference between samattha and vipassana has to > be understood very precisely otherwise they are bound > to be mixed up. And if that happens one will not see > what is the path and what is not. We need the > abhidhamma to help us see these differences. In the > suttas they sometimes use samma samadhi to refer to > both the samadhi associated with satipatthana and the > samadhi associated with normal samattha. But they are > not the same. Samadhi in vipassana is momentary - at > one moment it takes one object at another a different > one. It is uncontrollable. Trying to make it arise just shows that we don't understand the true > development of satipatthana, that we are trying to mix > samattha and vipassana. You wrote in your previous post: > The ways to insight can be broadly classified into > three: > 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses > samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and > includes all the 38 objects for concentration > meditation. > 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha > and vipassana developed together. > 3. pure vipassana. > > The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha > went by either the first or second ways because they > had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot > say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided > we define it as samattha concentration. However only > those with great accumulations can do - there were > other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only > go by pure vipassana. > All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but > the first two are more complete. They can give many > benefits such as powers and also the ability to > experinece the fruition of nibbana at will. I saw that you refer samatha as a basis to vipassana and more important, i could see that you've defined meditation as samatha concentration. I always have thought that meditation could lead us both to understanding - vipassana and-or tranquility - samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the difference. All the material below, i will read more than 2 or 3 times. It is now safe in my best-seller mails. Thank you ! But I would like to ask you about this part ... > ... It is also present- in a subtle way- when we > think that mind states can be changed or that the > "mind" can be calmed. (Actually this is not always > miccha-ditthi. It could be tanha or mana(conceit) > too) ... What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to deal with distracting thoughts. Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation ? or they are strategies to know the Dhamma ? If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in wich the Budhha stresses concentration ... Another question connected with it - how to practice right effort if we have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to miccha ditti until we reach some more deep understanding, what should the correct approach ? - this is a koan ! >.... Expectation is merely tanha, a cause of the > wheel of paticusamupadda. > It is a long, long path, cira-kala bhavana, but that > is fine once we know that there is no one on it. I expect I'm not expecting in learning from all for you with too much lobha and tanha ... You write very well and with nice poetry ! Thanks a lot Metta, Leonardo 816 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Amara, Hi Alex. We both are new here .... I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me know how ... Metta, Leonardo > > > > I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had > > difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the > > Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address: > > > > Alex Tran > > 1625 Vinecrest Cir. > > Garland, TX 75042 > > U.S.A. > > > > I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the > > postage. Please tell me how much it should be. > > Dear Alex, > > Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain > dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message > to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could > do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of > delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my > apologies as Webmaster of . Out books > are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and > handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow > members of the group. > > In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for > example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find > in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end > of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun > Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies, > but the version on the web is being revised for publication and > therefore may still have some minor mistakes. > > Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon, > > Amara > > 817 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: NYC meeting is on I've contacted sotujana > and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited > to meet and have the dhamma talk. Dear O, Sounds like so much fun! Have a wonderful and beneficial time and I hope many more people will join you! > > I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was > nobody there may be the time was different. Actually we have never tried that out though that should be interesting too! In fact most of us do not even know there was a chat room for us. Shall we try it out one day, say set up a certain date and time and if anyone wishes to join, they could just log in! > > I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion > have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong? E-group is quite a good and useful service, but personally I have had some problems with the posting as well, as have others on the list. YOu might like to check if your message got through by going to 'messages' a few minutes after you have posted your message to see if it got through. Or even better, go there and click on 'post' to write your message, or click on the messages that you want to reply to and write the reply there. But don't worry if something goes wrong, we have all had problems using it, I think! > at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December > hope to see you all. As are we to see you! In the meantime we look forward to your postings as well as your future account of the NYC meeting, Amara 818 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The support group (was meditation) Hi Sarah, I'm reading form a friend copy The Abhidhamma in daily life and Cetacikas. I will post some questions that should arise on my reading. It is nice to have your support, Thanks once more, Metta, Leonardo 819 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Dear Jonothan, > Many of those who teach and practice meditation may well believe that > their practice is supported by the suttas and the abhidhamma (others > are content to rely pretty much on their teacher's assurance). But a > careful reading of the suttas shows that the Buddha did not instruct > his listeners to undertake a formal practice of any kind. I see that > you are a keen reader of the suttas, and this is to be highly > commended. Perhaps when you read the suttas in future you might like > to see if what I have said is correct. I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about jhana. The best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga > ... What is different about a formal practice is the way one *perceives* (thinks about) those realities. But this is not same as the development of the *understanding* of realities. The way I try to practice isn't to think about the dhammas but trying to see the three marks the constitute all dhammas. The difference is subtle and difficult to appreciate, but > crucial. > > Jonothan Yes you are right - this difference is very difficult to grasp. But I will, for sure, try ! Metta, Leonardo 820 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:19pm Subject: Re: One more for 'Words' If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them, > that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a > week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing which > ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the web > page? or this discussion group? Dear Pinna, As you probably know, Nina's not online and I don't know if she has ever seen the website, but I planned to invite her to my place or ask Ell and Ivan to arrange something at theirs to show it to her when she comes in Dec. because she is going to Cambodia with us. Sarah, Jonothan, Alan and Robert correspond regularly with her, and Sarah has kindly agreed to co-ordinate this collection, I was hoping that Nina could also bring some that she has been editing as well. If you could send it in digitized format it would be wonderful for the website as it would make it much more convenient to upload. Please take your time, and anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 821 From: A T Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Amara, O., Robert and Dhamma friends, Thank you for your generosity. Somehow, the Amazon.com said that the book was out of print. I'm glad that O. still has one to spare. In fact, I've been told about this book since last year by a dhamma friend of mine in Australia last year. I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address so that we can send regular mail. During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website DhammaStudy. You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years ago, you even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts in the forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your posts are always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your metta while reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect good posts in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups archives the posts for 2 years only. I'm glad that I found this forum. Again, thank you. With Metta, Alex Tran 822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:35pm Subject: Paticusamupadda Dear group, Some of you might like to read over some comments I made to a friend recently: You ask "what is the support of ignorance in dependent arising. In other words, what is ignorant" A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry into the teachings that we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them. I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if there is no self in Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant. Dependent arising, the paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to understand, even in theory. And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a Buddha can fully comprehend and teach it. It is an extremely pithy description of the conditions for birth and death, both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There are many suttas that describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra details that the commentaries give to get a correct understanding of just what it is about. Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of the Vissudhimagga (after misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy re- reading it; so I will refer to the concise explanations given there (and since you have the Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more details directly). The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to paticusamupadda under the section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in which understanding grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than mere memory but not yet the highly developed direct understanding) of the khandas, ayatanas (bases) faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya etc. The first vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of this soil. See XIV 32. It says that one who wants to develop the roots should “first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the soil” Your question is very much part of the process of developing wisdom. . The first important point is that there is no one involved in this description of conditions. The paticussamupada is simply a description of changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having ignorance, nor is it “us” who is being reborn or dying. The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge of anatta, not-self, becomes. Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle. However, at the parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions for it to continue. All namas and rupas cease arising. Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja, ignorance. Vissudhimagga XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of collection in the aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the bases(ayatanas)…..the meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents knowing the meaning of dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression etc’..Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and objects of eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.” In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true nature of paramattha dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each other. The commentary to the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield from PTS)defines it (p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e.men, women) and since it does not dart among those things that do exist (i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas). At the moments we are developing correct understanding of dhammas there is a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of ignorance, just a little, just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating then eventually the gloom is dispelled and brightness rules. Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not completely eradicated until arahantship. But even before one reaches the first stge of enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being attenuated by insight into the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the times of a Buddha sasana that such insight can be developed. There is just so much to say about this Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you curious; I am happy to write more if you ask. And there are many people on this list who have a wide knowledge of Dhamma who may add something. I would also like to add something about another factor of the paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I want to emphasize this because one of the big mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got so bad I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a night of pleasure with a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could barely function. This all comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And it is not the way to understand. First there must be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as “sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire clinging not realising that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of the other types of clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of paticcusamupada; but we are only spinning it faster. Different things support such misguided practices: if we have read the suttas we know something of the life of monks and the rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the Buddha’s time, were walking the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense desire clinging had to be eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We might not realize that they first eliminated wrong view. We might read about their strict life and try to copy it. But this can be easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just so profound. At the moments there is understanding of any reality - for example, lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to supress lust we may succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the more subtle clingings that were present. Robert 823 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:26pm Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life > I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me know how ... Dear Leonardo, Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion? What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity! Amara 824 From: amara chay Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:35pm Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life > I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by > Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address so that > we can send regular mail. Dear Alex, Due to some regulations of the foundation, we have set up a separate company to provide publishing and mailing not covered by the foundation, with Khun Sujin as president of the Dhamma Study Company as well, to be run by the the website team and eleven commitee members. This book will be the first to be printed by the company jointly with the foundation, so you could send your contributions to the foundation whose address is on the website , DSSFB Schedules section, but if you wish to contribute through us, I'm sorry to say we are still working on the credit card based service for the website, and will announce the opening of the service on the site as well as here. > During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website DhammaStudy. > You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years ago, you > even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts in the > forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your posts are > always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your metta while > reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect good posts > in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups archives > the posts for 2 years only. Thank you very much for your kind encouragements, and what a nice idea about the collection of postings! We could at least put some more on the website, if not print them in book form just now. Could I ask you, when you next read through them, to please note the numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them to me? And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two years, I did not realize that. In fact anyone who thinks any of the letters are particularly useful could please send the list to me at my e-mail or here, so we could begin to collect (and edit them as needed). It would make a great book from our company even if the foundation happens not to wish to print it. Actually we aimed to translate and print as much of Khun Sujin's work as possible, but people have been telling me that they joined this discussion group to read the arcives here as well, so we definitely have to try to at least keep the more useful postings available. Anumodana again, Amara 825 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Leornardo wrote “i do not have enough time to write in english - why don't you speak portuguese ? “ You write so well in English –we English world people are so lazy about learning other languages. Maybe next life. > > Robert wrote “Do we have an idea that events are happening and > > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self > > view.” Leonardo said “ I didn't understand the correlation between the first sentence and the second” Robert Until understanding grows strong we all have an idea that there is me here and the world out there. “I am in the world doing this and that.” However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self. We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort until we turn blue in the face but until the causes are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises, as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a paramattha dhamma – its function is to distort. ... The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because “they are unmanageable”. Sati is part of sankhara khanda it is unmanageable, not-self. Leornardo wrote “If we can see things as they really are in any circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a retreat with detachment with regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself , etc ... theses are conditions, of course depending of the accumulations we have, for panna arises.” Robert wrote: Well, yes if we go to retreats with this type of attitude then there is no problem. But if there is this level of understanding then you might find less need to go to a center because you would see that awareness and understanding are the same inside or outside. Up in a plane or lying in bed. > > As I`ve read until we reach the state of > > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi. > > Robert wrote “But it is gradually eroded away. It is not that > becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where one > moment you believed there was a self and then you see > there is no self.” Leonardo wrote “Yes, but it seems to me that until we reach that goal, miccha ditthi is present and there is probably interferences in the way we percieve the path.” Robert:The only moments when the path is being developed are when there is right view. That is why it is given foremost place in the eightfold path. There must be mundane right understanding before there can be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi. > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for > awareness to understand. Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of Satipathana training. But i'm asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges to a mind full of hatred of Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a conditioned reality it can be understood. When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when thinking thinks about other things. In the same way panna comes in between the moments with hatred and understands those moments as not self. Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma. Leonardo wrote “ For me too the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all day long, not during the meditation practice.” This is too idealistic. It doesn’t consider accumulations over countless aeons. What is important is to see that there is no one, no self, no control. When there is no awareness then that is what is happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is real. If we resist this then we can never see that there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move away from the present moment. Want to be more calm, want to have more understanding. No, not the way. Understand this moment as it is, right now! > : Leonardo ”i could see that you've defined meditation as samatha concentration. I always have thought that meditation could lead us both to understanding - vipassana and-or tranquility - samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the difference." Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that term, that leads to vipassana examines the characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas. It is different from samattha meditation. It is so profound and can only be understood by the eye of wisdom. It is not a technique. Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to deal with distracting thoughts. Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation ? or they are strategies to know the Dhamma ?" Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold path. If these strategies work it is because the right conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend. Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please do not feel any pressure to change your ideas. Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say is useful and it conditions understanding then it is understanding that will see - not you. Robert ... 826 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:43pm Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Amara, --- "amara chay" wrote: > when you next read through them, to please note the > numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them to > me? I will. >And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two > years, I did not realize that. When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the corresponding months for each year and the number of posted articles within each month. Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2 years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not be displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any more. Let's hope that I'm wrong. I'm glad that others join to read the archive, too. :-))) With Metta, Alex Tran 827 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina Dear Betty: Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack and some people from the Fresno group in December. I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past, I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai and last year to India. As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka.... Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay... Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness. from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here? I may need more supply of book. bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month. anyone you know interested in dhamma talk? hope you all well Best regards, O 828 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling) Dear Friends: Sorry there were some missed spelling from the previous posted message, somehow I may have hit the spell check by mistake. What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the website? This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping... Sincerely, O 829 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:20am Subject: DSSFB discussion group, Dear friends, I almost forgot to remind the English discussion group that there will be discussions both on Wednesday and Saturday at 1:30 pm. this week, right to the late afternoon, so those who come from work would be able to join part of it. Looking forward to seeing you, and please tell your friends, Amara 830 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda(many thanks) Dear Robert: Many thanks to your intelligence explanation of this chapter. I'm really really impressed with this suject.. And have wanted to be able to express it in English. I shall sure looking forward to meet the member in NYC and certainty will have a solid information to share with all. Thanks for encouragement. Anomodana, O 831 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:39am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling) > What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the website? > This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping... > Sincerely, > O Dear O, For the short articles, that should do fine, but for the 550 pp of the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', it would make quite a stack, don't you think? As I understand it there are classes using the book in their studies, they find it less convenient as sheets than books. Also some say that the cost of printing of a number of books is much less than computer printout per page, at least in Thailand. Maybe you could help me check? Thank you in advance, Amara 832 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 10:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling) Dear Amara: It's so true that the whole book is much better than the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to print the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the reading materiel that print from the web many times. and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in the US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer plus color ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway. As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't mind pay for convenience than anything. What do you think? Sincerely, O 833 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Amara, Yes you are correct. Leonardo is portuguese name - the same as Leonard in English. Leo is derived from lion. The pali name Bhante Gunaratana has gave me was Siha, wich is lion in pali .... Thank you once more for your kind interest. Metta, Leonardo > Dear Leonardo, > > Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion? > What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity! > > Amara 834 From: amara chay Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:48am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling) > It's so true that the whole book is much better than > the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to print > the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized > and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the reading > materiel that print from the web many times. > and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper > and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in the > US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer plus color > ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway. > As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't mind > pay for convenience than anything. What do you think? Dear O, Many of our friends who don't like to read from the screen also print most of DS's new articles out to read also, but still I have had requests for the 'Summary' in book form, although anyone can print it out from the website from the start. There is copyright only if anyone wishes to publish it but to download for study it is absolutely free, as are all our books. Perhaps we should give people the choice whether to acquire the book or to continue to print out, since obviously some still think that the book form is more convenient or preferable for them? (Another aspect of the book that those who uses both Thai and English might consider is that the book we are preparing will correspond translation wise page to page with the extant Thai version, for easy reference, but this of course would be nothing to those who do not know Thai. I must add that it will not be a biligual book as are some of the foundation's publishings because it is meant first and foremost for English readers who would never need the Thai part, and would make the already long book much too long.) Perhaps other members of the group could also comment on this? I might add that this book will probably go to print anyway but from now on we might consider not printing anything else and just upload everything on the web, a much easier job. Personally, I love working on the web as well as reading from the screen, especially with a nice background and big texts, but have a strong addiction to books as well, in fact I just finished the whole series of Harry Potters my sister brought from Europe for me a few days ago with much lobha! Just goes to show how old habits die hard, but that's just me. I would like to inform the group also that Khun Sujin has a great article by one of her students that she would like me to translate for the web, about Kamma, which she will give me today and which should be ready soon, I will announce it here as always. Amara 835 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Robert, > Robert > Until understanding grows strong we all have an > idea that there is me here and the world out there. "I > am in the world doing this and that." > However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self. > We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we > do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort > until we turn blue in the face but until the causes > are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning > to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises, > as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning > about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a > paramattha dhamma - its function is to distort. Thank you ... > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because > "they are unmanageable". Sati is part of sankhara > khanda it is unmanageable, not-self. I will as soon as possible complete the study ofe The Abhidhamma in Daily Life and Cetacikas. It will fantastic to grasp what you have written .... > Robert: 1) The only moments when the path is being > developed are when there is right view. > 2. There must be mundane right understanding before there can > be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi. Excelent. Right View is the very basis to the path. We start right from here - mundane right view ... Because of this, studying the Dhamma is very important. > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for > > awareness to understand. > > Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of > Satipathana training. But i'm > asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges > to a mind full of hatred of > > Dosa arises - even hatred- by conditions but it is a > conditioned reality it can be understood. > When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not > moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant > Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when > thinking thinks about other things. > In the same way panna comes in between the moments > with hatred and understands those moments as not self. > Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really > hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path > and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma. Muito bom (very good) ! > Leonardo wrote " For me too > the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all > day long, not during the > meditation practice." > This is too idealistic. It doesn't consider > accumulations over countless aeons. What is important > is to see that there is no one, no self, no control. > When there is no awareness then that is what is > happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is > real. If we resist this then we can never see that > there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on > the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move > away from the present moment. Want to be more calm, > want to have more understanding. No, not the way. > Understand this moment as it is, right now! > Leonardo "i could see > that you've defined meditation as samatha > concentration. I always have thought that > meditation could lead us both to understanding - > vipassana and-or tranquility - > samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the > difference." Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu .... > Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that > term, that leads to vipassana examines the > characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas. > It is different from samattha meditation. It is so > profound and can only be understood by the eye of > wisdom. It is not a technique. Yes this is the way i try to understand. Many people says - I will practice vipassana, i'll do a retreat on vipassana, like it was a mere technique... > Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana > Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you > teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to > deal with distracting thoughts. > Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation > ? or they are strategies to > know the Dhamma ?" > > Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha > placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered > that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold > path. If these strategies work it is because the right > conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of > following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like > all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend. > Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please > do not feel any pressure to change your ideas. > Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say > is useful and it conditions understanding then it is > understanding that will see - not you. > Robert I should thank you for your kind patience in answering all my basic argumentation. As my name denotes, the lion in my mind (miccha ditthi) will demand a lot of study and work to have its own character understood. I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining this discussions. Thank you once more ... Metta, Leonardo 836 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:40am Subject: Re: meditation Dear Robert and Dhamma friends, > there are only paramattha dhammas , no self. > We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we > do will be tainted by ditthi. Sadhu... > We can put in effort > until we turn blue in the face but until the causes > are fulfilled there is no way to understand. It's impossible to attain Sotapana level in this life time if we are not born with 3 hetus. In this case, it seems we can build up the causes for the future life times. > Leornardo wrote "If we can see things as they really > are in any > circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a > retreat with detachment with > regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself > , etc ... theses are > conditions, of course depending of the accumulations > we have, for panna arises." I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana sessions as the time working at the lab to slow down in order to practice living at the current moment and seeing things as they are. From Robert's posts, I sense the urgent message of accepting totally what is happening within our body and mind. By wishing it otherwise, we will go further and further from the Path. Thank you, Robert. With Metta, Alex 837 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:04pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonardo, "But i'm > asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges > to a mind full of hatred" Your remarks about hatred made me think. You wondered “if a mind filled with hatred” would be conducive to insight and awareness. First let us remember that mind is a concept. There are only namas and rupas. And namas are arising and passing away ceaselessly. I guess what you mean by a mind filled with hatred is either when we are very angry with someone or perhaps the case of a person who is often overwhelmed by hatred, who dwells hating others. There is much in the texts about the dangers of hatred and all of us – who are interested in Dhamma- have no problem in seeing the danger of it. Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I would like to examine our attitude to it and to the Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our attitude one that only wants to have “good” dhammas? If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, equanimous, compassionate, insightful person. Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to perfecting this Dhamma idol. Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no matter what? If so then we must remember that hatred is another dhamma that arises and should be investigated. When hatred arises it is merely the asavas, the tendencies showing themselves. The Bodhisatta developed the parami in so many different ways. He tested and strove. Once he stole something in order to see the result – he lost respect and was almost executed because of it. He wanted to see for himself the results of breaking sila. Are we brave enough to do that? We have to be prepared to give up all our clingings even to sila or any practice we might have in order to really see what is what and so go beyond doubt. Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should accept it or even encourage it? If we investigate we see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as “HE did that to ME” and “HE is bad”. In other words one of the co- conditions hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha) that is lost in the world of concepts (of “he” and “me” and “they”) . If one can investigate in this way one is learning much about the way things work; and that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one thinks in other ways such as “but in reality there is no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those aggregates that arose even one second ago have completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the air?” that there cannot be hatred at the exact same moments. And then we might think again, forgetting Dhamma, “but HE did that to ME” and see how again hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very simple example but perhaps it conditions some reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if we want to. There are so many other moments such as seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that arise too, that can be understood. Try to have hatred right now. Can you? Only if there are conditions for it. Try to have fear now, can you? Again it takes certain conditions. Yesterday Kumamoto was rocked by two small earthquakes. There were moments of fear and it was clear how thinking came in so quickly, conditioned by attachment, and was a condition of the fear. Very interesting. And interesting to see how, a little more slowly, that thinking about kamma and vipaka came in and the fear ceased. (are earthquakes an advantage or disadvantage of living in japan for a Buddhist?)This is understanding at the level of thinking only but it is still helpful. Sometimes we will have very painful experiences – it is inevitable for everyone – they are opportunities to learn. Montaigne (esaays 3.13) wrote something about doctors “medicine always claims that experience is the truest of its operations. Plato therefore was right in saying that to become a true doctor, a man must have experienced all the illnesses he hopes to cure and all the accidents and circumstances he is to diagnose….such a man I would trust.” Of course experience is no help unless it is accompanied with wisdom. Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems, fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati? Then there are other namas arising. Their characteristic can’t be changed. Isn’t it all so uncontrollable. Just yesterday I wrote a note to Sarah saying I might write a bit less. Since then I wrote three rather long posts. Take the self out of life and it all keeps going by itself by conditions. We don’t need to control anything; more than that, we don’t control anything; in truth there is no self to control, never was. This belief in self and control was/is all a cunning illusion conjured by avijja the magician. Robert 838 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation --- --- Dear Leonardo, I am naturally most happy that you are finding our discussion of use. > > I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining > this discussions. > > Thank you once more ... > Metta, > Leonardo Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this group partly so that we could all have easy contact since we live in many different countries. And also in the hope of benefitting those who have the accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this confusing mass we call life. Sarah and Jon might remember the first time we met, coming up to 10 years ago. Ivan was there too, at Khun Sujin's sister's house off Sukhumvit 71. I had met Khun Sujin a few times before and was just coming to grips with a subtle, but profound change in perspective, Dhamma wise. Since my last meeting with Khun Sujin I had thought up every counterargument I could, and scoured the texts for points that seemed to support my assertions that the path could be helped by techniques. I was basically saying "yes, you are right, the path is this way but also everybody else is right in their approach." I sounded very reasonable, I think . Anyway Khun sujin was very firm on what is right and what is not. And at the same time the others made very pertinent comments. If you meet Ivan, Sarah and Jon in the future you will apreciate their patience and enormously intelligent way of getting to the heart of the matter. They each explain things in different ways, it was so helpful to meet with them. Gradually things became clearer. I wrote many letters to Nina and she answered so carefully, with many details. Somehow all my old ideas just seemed to float away as the study - in theory and in daily life-of paramattha dhammas became uppermost. It has been a good decade. Robert 839 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 3:06pm Subject: Preserving the archives --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the > beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see > that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the > corresponding months for each year and the number of posted articles > within each month. > > Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2 > years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not be > displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data > base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any > more. > > Let's hope that I'm wrong. Alex, Thanks for your interest in the group and your suggestion about preserving the archives. Fortunately, there is no such 2-year limit on archives. Some groups are already into their 3rd year of archives at least. Looking to the future, Sarah and I agree with the need to keep all the useful messages and have them accessible, and we are considering the best way to arrange this. But there is no problem for now. We hope you continue to find the discussion interesting and useful, as we do. Jonothan 840 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 2:54am Subject: Nina's letters Dear Pinna & Amara, I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make Nina's writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate them. However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this. I sent Amara's enthusiastic response and a note to her. I have just received a fax from Nina, which I'll quote from now: "Dear Sarah, I appreciate all your efforts for the group and also Amara's efforts with the web. I shall bring copies of old letters to Thailand, but I cannot revise them now. Khun Sujin's revised Survey Of paramattha Dhammas is 700 pages and i have just finished Introduction + Citta . I am rechecking these. What if Amara gets my revised Vipassana Letters rom Alan's Web? What he has is revised. These old letters are o.k., but for a book I would have to revise them. Ven Bodhi does not mind if there is something he has published before. He said 'Dhamma is no one's property'. It would be nice to mention 'with his kind permission'. I am thinking of Kamma and Vipaka which is suitable......" Pinna, will you be coming to Cambodia? It would be a good chance to discuss further w/ Nina. You may also wish to write to her directly on this matter. > >Dear Sarah and Amara, >Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for >circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them, >that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a >week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing >which >ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the >web >page? or this discussion group? >Pinna > 841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:02am Subject: welcome! Dear O and Alex, I'm really glad you've both made it to this group discussion list and delighted to read your contributions and to hear of your keen interest in dhamma. Please keep up your comments and I look forward to meeting you, O, in December. Sarah >Dear Betty: >Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack >and some people from the Fresno group in December. > I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past, >I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai >and last year to India. >As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live >that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka.... >Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay... >Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness. >from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State >since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here? >I may need more supply of book. >bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month. >anyone you know interested in dhamma talk? >hope you all well >Best regards, >O 842 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 7:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah Thank you for your encouragement, I'm really looking forward to meet peter and sotujana in NYC and all of you in December ... just want to let you know, I got so much feed back from joining the group you guy are so knowledgeable in dhamma!!! how long have been studying? anumodana, O 843 From: amara chay Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 0:22am Subject: Re: Nina's letters > I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make Nina's > writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate them. > However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this. Dear Sarah and Pinna, Looking forward to uploading it whenever you're ready, thanking you in advance and anumodana, Amara 844 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 1:08pm Subject: The book has been mail to Alex Dear Alex When you recieved the book,please let me know I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days. will you be going to BKK in December? I can't wait to meet all... with metta, O 845 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:58pm Subject: Re: Thank you, O. Dear O, Thank you. I'm looking forward to study it. May your generosity and efforts of this life time help you be liberated sooner. I will be very busy for next few months. Therefore, I cannot go anywhere in the near future. Please share your experience in the Forum when you have time. Again, thank you very much. With Metta, Alex ====================== --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Alex > > When you recieved the book,please let me know > I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days. > > will you be going to BKK in December? > I can't wait to meet all... > with metta, > O 846 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:08pm Subject: Sowing Good Seeds Dear Dhamma friends, Since we cannot have good results in the future without good causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds? Thank you. Peace, Alex 847 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Leonardo & friends, I'd like to add a couple of points to your excellent questions and Robert's very helpful comments. I hope I don't add confusion! Of course no one can say developing right understanding is easy at any time or that any object is easy to understand. If there is still some idea of selection or some objects being easy, it shows the strong clinging and probably wrong view of self at these times. Why are we so concerned about understanding dosa(aversion) and developing techniques to avoid it? Of course, because it's so unpleasant and always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. What about lobha? What about when the feeling is so pleasant? Are we so conmcerned to understand its nature? If there were no lobha there would be no dosa. Khun Sujin always stresses that we have to be very courageous to develop understanding. Are we really interested in a life with no kilesa (defilements)? No. That's why understanding which knows the danger of even subtle moha and lobha can only develop very slowly. Like Robert says, it may seem there was dosa - unhappiness, depression, worry, fear- for a long period of time such as an hour or a day or a month, but actually it only lasts for a moment and then it's gone. Khun Sujin talks about welcoming her kilesa because it's an opportunity for understanding to know them when they appear. We are being tested all the time! It doesn't mean they are good in any sense, but detachment and understanding have to develop with regard to all realities.> > > > > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for > > awareness to understand. > > Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of >Satipathana training. But i'm >asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges >to a mind full of hatred of > >Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a >conditioned reality it can be understood. >When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not >moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant >Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when >thinking thinks about other things. >In the same way panna comes in between the moments >with hatred and understands those moments as not self. >Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really >hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path >and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma. > > The more understanding there is of Abhidhamma and anatta, the more it becomes clear that whatever the Buddha is talking about, whether in the suttas or the vinaya, he is talking about the development of understanding of realities. His listeners and readers did not have to be reminded of this in every sentence. In the suttas he is giving examples from daily life at that time. Many of his listners had realised jhanas and so he is saying, while doing this or that or in this case removing distracting thoughts, develop understanding. Just like in the satipatthana sutta, he is saying, while sitting or standing etc, develop understanding. Although I don't have this sutta at hand (Maybe you can quote from it or remind me where it is), I have utmost confidence from my knowledge of abhidhamma that he is stressing the value of understanding while following what would be a natural lifestyle for some. In the same way, if he talks about a monk sitting cross-legged under a tree, this would be the natural lifestyle for such a person at that time. It doesn't mean we should all copy the lifestyle. People misunderstand because of the clinging to control and self and doing rather than understanding paramattha dhammas. That's why there has to be an understanding of the Abhidhamma in order to understand the suttas. > > Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana >Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you >teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to >deal with distracting thoughts. >Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation >? or they are strategies to >know the Dhamma ?" > >Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha >placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered >that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold >path. If these strategies work it is because the right >conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of >following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like >all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend. > I agree with Robert. It's not a question of changing ideas or deciding to follow this way or that. Like you say, there can be right understanding on a retreat and wrong understanding and attachment while reading and discussing the Abhidhamma. It just depends on all the complex conditions at each moment. metta and thanks for all your kind appreciation and consideration, Sarah >Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please >do not feel any pressure to change your ideas. >Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say >is useful and it conditions understanding then it is >understanding that will see - not you. >Robert 848 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 5:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda Dear Robert, I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say (as I did in a private email) that we welcome receiving and reading any of your correspondence here. You're a very prolific writer and we can all benefit from any writings you wish to share. Please don't feel 'grengjai' about posting too much! We need as many conditions to help those 'flickers of light' as possible! I went to sleep last night reflecting on the soil and the roots (and also, Amara, like you, on Harry Potter's latest adventures!)... With thanks, Sarah p.s. I laughed about the ice-cream guilt... hope you get good ones in Japan! > >Dear group, >Some of you might like to read over some comments I >made to a friend recently: >You ask >"what is the support of ignorance in dependent >arising. In other words, what >is ignorant" > >A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry >into the teachings that >we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them. >I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if >there is no self in >Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant. >Dependent arising, the >paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to >understand, even in theory. >And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a >Buddha can fully >comprehend and teach it. > It is an extremely pithy description of the >conditions for birth and death, >both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There >are many suttas that >describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra >details that the >commentaries give to get a correct understanding of >just what it is about. >Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of >the Vissudhimagga (after >misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy >re- reading it; so I >will refer to the concise explanations given there >(and since you have the >Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more >details directly). > The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to >paticusamupadda under the >section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in >which understanding >grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than >mere memory but not yet >the highly developed direct understanding) of the >khandas, ayatanas (bases) >faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya >etc. The first >vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of >this soil. See XIV 32. >It says that one who wants to develop the roots should >“first fortify his >knowledge by learning and questioning about those >things that are the soil” >Your question is very much part of the process of >developing wisdom. >. > > >The first important point is that there is no one >involved in this >description of conditions. The paticussamupada is >simply a description of >changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having >ignorance, nor is it >“us” who is being reborn or dying. >The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge >of anatta, not-self, >becomes. > >Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle. >However, at the >parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions >for it to continue. >All namas and rupas cease arising. > >Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja, >ignorance. Vissudhimagga >XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of >collection in the >aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the >bases(ayatanas)…..the >meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents >knowing the meaning of >dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression >etc’..Furthermore it is >ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and >objects of >eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.” >In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true >nature of paramattha >dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each >other. The commentary to >the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield >from PTS)defines it >(p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance >since it causes beings >to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it >is ignorance since it >darts among those things which do not actually exist >(i.e.men, women) and >since it does not dart among those things that do >exist (i.e.it cannot >understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas). > > At the moments we are developing correct >understanding of dhammas there is >a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of >ignorance, just a little, >just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating >then eventually the >gloom is dispelled and brightness rules. >Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not >completely eradicated >until arahantship. But even before one reaches the >first stge of >enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being >attenuated by insight into >the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the >times of a Buddha sasana >that such insight can be developed. There is just so >much to say about this >Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you >curious; I am happy to write >more if you ask. And there are many people on this >list who have a wide >knowledge of Dhamma who may add something. > >I would also like to add something about another >factor of the >paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are >four types of clinging >(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire >clinging, wrongview >clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly >self view clinging. Note >that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the >three include all >types of wrong view from the gross to the very most >subtle). These three are >the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we >especially need to >understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of >vipassana gradually >eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at >sotapanna they are >eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, >then attenuate the >clinging to sense desires. > > I want to emphasize this because one of the big >mistakes I made in my >early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense >desire. It got so bad I >would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a >night of pleasure with >a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could >barely function. This all >comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And >it is not the way to >understand. First there must be a gradual removal of >wrongview. We have >accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to >understand them –not >suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in >comprehending this point as >“sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other >kinds (the three >types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. > We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire >clinging not realising >that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of >the other types of >clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of >paticcusamupada; but we are >only spinning it faster. Different things support such >misguided practices: >if we have read the suttas we know something of the >life of monks and the >rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the >Buddha’s time, were walking >the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense >desire clinging had to be >eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We >might not realize that >they first eliminated wrong view. > We might read about their strict life and try to copy >it. But this can be >easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just >so profound. At the >moments there is understanding of any reality - for >example, lust, at those >moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to >supress lust we may >succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the >more subtle clingings >that were present. >Robert > > 849 From: amara chay Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 9:58pm Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds > Since we cannot have good results in the future without good > causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds? Dear Alex, I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by good results, causes and seeds. In Buddhism, there are several levels of goodness, but the kind of goodness that no other religion mentions is goodness accompanied by 'panna' that not only brings good results but nana of different levels according to the accumulation of panna, right up to enlightenment, the final results of which end all results, good or bad. Other religions teach dana, giving for the good of others, sila or good behavior in order to live in a society, but none emphasise what is at the heart of Buddhhism, bhavana or the development of panna. In fact wasn't it because they ate the fruit of the tree of wisdom that Adam and Eve were bannished from Eden? Understanding is the only way to higher levels of kusala, and only panna that is fully developed could we eradicate kilesa. Along the way the fringe benefits of this intricate development is considerable, and desirable to most. But knowing things, good or bad, as they really are, form the core of the Buddha's teachings, whether things appearing through the eyes, even as we read this now, the ears at this moment, the nose, if any, tongue, bodysense, whatever is perceived, or the mind as the citta recognize and think and analyse in alternate processes of consciousness. We have never been aware of this before the teachings and as we study what appears to be known through all the different dvaras or ways, the true characteristics of each reality add to the knowledge of realities as they truly are that develop panna, so gradually realize the teachings are really true, there are only different realities that we take, in a lump, as the self. People do everything for the self, and once there is no self, the purity of good deeds are purer, and panna, or understanding things as they really are, being in itself kusala and never arising with bad citta, or akusala, would always lead to better results, according to the level of understanding. I don't know if I have answered your question, but this is what is in the Tipitaka or the collection of the Buddha's teachings, Amara 850 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:16pm Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear Amara and friends, Thank you for your interest at my question. > I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by > good results, causes and seeds. You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past. Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for the future. From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are liberated. That's where I'm confused. The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on. With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example. Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now, if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer, I can see that it is really a line of ants moving. With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown line. The following events are going on: 1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line. 2. I tell myself that: a. at this moment I see a line, and b. there is no self. 3. My eyes are still full of dust as before. 4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth. With appreciation and Metta, Alex 851 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds Dear Alex: Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times we as a normal human always clinging to what we want. How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good result so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future... But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds) once we develop panna,panna will do it own job... my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. with Metta, O Amara,Robert and Sarah: This is the interpretations from what I understand. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. O 852 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:49am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds > You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past. > Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in > the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for > the future. Dear Alex, I'm afraid that reality is much more complicated than that. What we perceive as one moment is in fact composed, like the television screen, which we take as a whole picture and is in fact composed of a single dot projected at a time at such speed as to sweep the entire screen and create a picture. Our citta is much faster than that, what we think as simultaneous experiences such as seeing and hearing at the same time is in fact thousands of citta in rapid processions with several others in between that are so fast ordinarily no one can be aware of. So when you talk about the present being the results, those are called vipaka citta which means they arise from kamma or cetana cetasika of the past. But not all citta are vipaka, they are also kusala or akusala or abyagata, as well as kiriya, so that their funtions are different and the function of kusala and akusala is to produce good or bad vipaka in the future. For example, your seeing this screen now is the result of vipaka of some past kamma. Whether you continue to read and follow the reasonings or turn of the computer is by kusala or akusala kamma, and if you understood intellectually at least it could be the beginning of understanding realities as they really are according to what the Buddha taught. If you opened the Tipitaka and counted the times the Buddha spoke of the six senses, the number of times would be staggering, yet we are always thinking that we already understand such simple ordinary things, whereas they are always leading us to believing these are ours. Could you give your eyes away right now, never to see again, ants or no ants? No, they are ours, we need them to see. But when there are conditions, we might lose them, no matter what we do. We have no real control over them. Sight was created by past accumulations. Whether, on seeing the ants, kusala or akusala arises strongly enough to kill them or not, as kamma, would create future vipaka. This is just a tiny part of what the teachings of the Abhidhamma is about, it is not a simple matter that just reading a few lines can explain. I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section of very carefully, starting with the first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand anything please post it here and we will try to help you. > From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self > and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we > understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are > liberated. > > That's where I'm confused. Of course you would be confused, the understanding that liberates is not the understanding of following the reasonings, nor that of remembering, but the higher panna of the nana levels that experience the reality so fully that there are no more doubts in the least. There are three levels in the study of the dhamma, there is the theoretical study to comprehend the reasonings, the study of the present moment of realities that appear at each instant that accumulates knowledge about the realities that appear as they really are: sight of the screen is totally different from sounds, hardness at the fingertips or the floor is different from thinking, etc. They appear and fall away, one blink and millions of elctrons and neutrons and quarks have evolved, billions of cittas and cetasikas have arisen to hear, see, feel, think and just live (life continuums are called bhavanga and they arise between all processes). It is because of this extreme rapidity and the memory that makes the Buddha the only person or whose religion talks about the citta arising and falling away instead of one entity or soul from birth to death. And when panna or the right experiences of the higher level occurs, they would be so powerful as to eliminate kilesa level by level, and liberate us from the cycle of rebirths, not momentary release. > The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he > changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in > their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on. > > With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example. > > Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that > there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I > approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now, > if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer, > I can see that it is really a line of ants moving. > > With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown > line. The following events are going on: > > 1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line. > 2. I tell myself that: > a. at this moment I see a line, and > b. there is no self. > 3. My eyes are still full of dust as before. > 4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth. What you see through the eyes is visible object which the ears cannot perceive. Close your eyes and neither color nor shapes and forms will appear, whether with glasses or not. When you recognize the object seen, it is through the mind door, whether you interpreted the object correctly or not. Even if you used binoculars, what you see are only visible objects, 'rupa' or something that is not a consciousness, or 'vanno' or the object that the eyes can perceive, which is a 'rupa' although not all rupa are vanno. In fact vanno is the only visible rupa of the 28 classified in the Abhidhamma. Again, I suggest the book above for the basis on which to study realities according to what the Buddha taught, which is mainly what we discuss here. You will also find that the 'dust' you speak about has much deeper meaning than unclear sight. Take your time to read the book to understand the explanations more deeply and you will no longer be confused about anything. Amara 853 From: amara chay Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:55am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds > This is the interpretations from what I understand. > Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. > O Dear O, I think you are doing just fine! Keep it up, Amara 854 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 2:01am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds Thank you, O. After thinking about my own question, I think that I found the answer. It all lies in our attitude. When performing any action (active mode) or receiving objects from our 6 doors (passive mode), if our mind is in balance, we are sowing good seeds that will bring panna. Our action is in balance when we see that everything, kusala or akusala, that happens within our mind and body is uncontrollable, not self. Therefore, we accept them as they are by not reacting. That comes from wisdom: no attachment, no suffering. And then, there's serenity, there's real peace. With Metta, Alex 855 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:43am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds --- "amara chay" wrote: > I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section > of very carefully, starting with the > first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the > understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms > and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the > explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand > anything please post it here and we will try to help you. Dear Amara, Thank you. I will do what you suggest. :-))) With Metta, AT 856 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path Dear Alex, --- > > > > > Our action is in balance when we see that > everything, kusala or > akusala, that happens within our mind and body is > uncontrollable, not > self. Amaras replies to your question help us to see the complexity and difficulty of such matters. Without the help of the Buddha's wisdom no one could ever untangle this twisted skein known as life. It needs careful consideration and wise aplication in daily life of what we have learned before real understanding grows, and that takes time. You write that "everything..that happens within our body or mind is uncontrollable, not self". This is the most important thing to understand and the further you understand it the more life itself is seen as it is. You have a good basis for further investigation Alex- no control is hard to accept for most people. And earlier you wrote . " I sense the urgent message of accepting totally what is happening within our body and mind. By wishing it otherwise, we will go further and further from the Path." Yes. Another important point. In fact things don't even happen "within our body or mind". There is really no body or mind, there is just a rapid flux of conditions happening because of incredibly complex conditions. The more we learn of this the stronger grows such factors as sadda (confidence). There are so many levels of understanding and they all involve the idea of self being rubbed away. We may understand the importance of accepting and understanding any moment but still, in a subtle way, feel that it is "me" who is accepting. Thus we keep learning and studying each moment so that we understand these subtle clingings and understand more about the different paramattha dhammas that are arising even now. I am now, once again, studying the vissudhimagga. The last time I studied it carefully was 6 years ago. It is really surprising to me how differently I understand the meaning now than 6 years ago. The time before that was 10 years ago, and before that 15 years ago. What I can say is that the first time I looked at it, 15 years ago, I basically saw it all through the eyes of self. I really misunderstood. This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is really invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right one it leads not to strange experieneces but away from ideas of control and self. The difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by little more apparent. Do we look around and see people and animals and chairs and tables? Do we think these things exist? They don't; the world is only inner and outer ayatanas. Colors contacting the eyebase, sounds contacting the earbase, hardness and heat contacting the bodybase etc., and these condition the special types of consciousness particular to these doorways. We live so much in a world of story and concept. Especially "the story of my life". If we are wearing for example, a large diamond ring, do we think this is good fortune, a sign of kusala vipaka. In some aspects it is but Khun Sujin (or nina I forget which) once said to me that the ring is hard and thus when we feel it on the finger that hardness is very slight unpleasant feeling through the body sense. It is akusala vipaka caused by akusala kamma done in the past. If the ring is truly beautiful the eyeconsciuosness that arises is kusala vipaka caused by good kamma done in the past. But some rings are not very beautiful - we can't be sure whether it was really kusala. In the commentary to the Patthana there is an example given of holding a nice new, warm soft dog shit in ones hand. Through the eyedoor the eyeconsciousness is akusala vipaka (bad result) and through the nosedoor akusal vipaka (bad result) but through the body door, because it is soft and warm, kusala vipaka, good result. Does this seem strange?, If so this is because we always cling to situation and story. But paramattha dhammas are changing at blinding speed. The story is the shadow of the realities, it is not what is really happening it . To get to what life really is we have to learn to see dhammas as they really are . This is so hard because if we just concentrate then the citta contacting the paramattha dhamma will be rooted in very subtle lobha - and that distorts and cannot really see- and will make one think the wrong path is the right one. . Robert 857 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 11:40am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path Dear Amara and Robert, Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed "Summary of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com. May you both advance far on the Path with your wisdom and compassion. With Metta, Alex Tran 858 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:17pm Subject: A signless path? Dear group, Someone sent me a note asking me to clarify where I wrote: This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I > see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is > really > invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right > one > it leads not to strange experieneces but away from > ideas of control and self. The difference between > paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by > little more apparent. I mentioned strange experiences because some people are keen to have such things happen while they meditate and hope for a teacher to confirm this (which many do) as a sign of the path. In fact, the vipassana nanas are clear signs so we cannot say the path is entirely invisible, but these are not strange experiences. At these moments, as Acharn sujin explains, the mindoor is revealed and the distinction between nama and rupa becomes clear- no longer a world of people and things during those moments. These things happen because they must, because the conditions for them have been fulfilled; not by wanting or trying.If they occur it will be very clear as they can only appear to highly developed wisdom. One will not have to ask a teacher if this was vipassana- one will know for oneself. Robert 859 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Leonardo Thanks for your reply to my post. I notice you have been very busy with replies lately. Please don’t feel under any obligation in this regard. We all contribute just as and when we can (which is usually not as often as we would like to). It is good to have your very perceptive comments on the list. > I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about >jhana. The >best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga Yes, the Buddha taught about jhana. But the question we need to consider is whether he taught a ‘formal practice’ as something different from a ‘daily life/non-formal’ practice. Or did he teach only one practice, the practice. As Sarah has pointed out in another post, it is easy to misconstrue the significance of passages in the Suttas where the Buddha mentions monks sitting cross-legged with mindfulness arisen. We tend to assume that this is being held up as the way to practice. Perhaps this assumption reflects our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to involve. But consider for a moment the many, many suttas where the Buddha explains about the need to understand the realities appearing at the present moment through the 6 doorways, but makes no reference to sitting crosslegged or to anything that could be regarded as a method of practice. The subject matter is pure vipassana bhavana, so why is there no mention of ‘practice’? The answer of course is that the practice is the listening to, considering and applying of that teaching, there and then (here and now), which is what his audience was doing then and we should be doing now. And in other suttas the importance of this listening, considering and applying is specifically mentioned. So do the suttas support a formal and a non-formal practice, or just the practice? We need to consider this as we study. Jonothan 860 From: amara chay Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 0:43am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path > Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed "Summary > of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully > all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com. Dear Alex, Anumodana in your kusala cetana, there is plenty for you to read, then, what with the books to come! I hope you will have fun studying too, it's such an interesting study, and is sort of an addiction for me personally. That of course is lobha, but much more beneficial than any other form of lobha to my mind, and not being the arahanta yet, lobha is only normal. Only right understanding could eradicate that, in the meantime enjoying the dhamma is probably the best if not most fun you can have, I think, so you have quite a time ahead of you! Do tell us what you think of the readings as you progress, Amara 861 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 3:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path Dear Alex, I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers and so I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about those dusty eyes! In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil. Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation. So there may be a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at these moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past. There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin to grow. Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line, but this is just thinking...for a moment. I would suggest that there must be glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons! Dear Amara and friends, Thank you for your interest at my question. >I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by good >results, causes and seeds. You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past. Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for the future. Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics, but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self lurking in the background.... best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you, Sarah From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are liberated. That's where I'm confused. The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on. With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example. Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now, if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer, I can see that it is really a line of ants moving. With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown line. The following events are going on: 1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line. 2. I tell myself that: a. at this moment I see a line, and b. there is no self. 3. My eyes are still full of dust as before. 4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth. With appreciation and Metta, Alex 862 From: A T Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:56 CST > >Dear Alex, > >I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent >questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers Dear Sarah and friends, :-))) Thank you again, Amara, O, and Robert. I re-read your answers and saw how wise you are. :-))) >and so >I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about >those dusty eyes! I have enjoyed your posts very much, Sarah. It's my honor. Please don't be hesistant to make comments. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. :-))) >In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding >is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil. I see what you mean. Thank you for pointing out that the first stage is to prepare the soil. It's a useful stage, indeed. >Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in >between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation. :-))) >So there may be >a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At >these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that >glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at >these >moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or >wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past. >There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time >however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin >to grow. > >Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line, >but >this is just thinking...for a moment. I'm preparing myself to dive deep into the intellectual understanding by studying as much as I can. I know that it will clarify my doubt and increase saddha. Thank you, O and Robert for the books that you sent. Thank you, Amara and Alan for the Websites. >I would suggest that there must be >glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and >making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that >really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such >beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance >and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons! :-))) May we advance further and further on the Path by increasing our panna. And may we be with kusala friends always. >Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or >be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics, >but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self >lurking in the background.... May we develop panna so that the illusive self, that has been building houses for us in the samara for so long, may rest. >best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you, >Sarah Thank you. Sadhu... With appreciation and Metta, AT 863 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path Dear Alex and dhamma friends: Your comment show such an enthusiastic interested in dhamma anumodana... Somehow I'm sure that we all have accumulate some panna as a small tiny seed in our past life. Let's keep studying as a good soil would nurture the seed to grow into a small tree. how fortunate of us to have found out about the dust in our eyes. now that we knew it was the dust...we can fine the way to get rid of it... then the nature should take it couses,good soil..growing tree. dustless eyes ... glimmer, clearly see. anumodana to all, O 864 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds Dear O, like Amara, I'm enjoying your contributions very much. You give very good reminders here and I look forward to hearing more of your comments here on the list and when we meet in Bangkok. best wishes, Sarah > >Dear Alex: >Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times >we as a normal human always clinging to what we want. >How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject >in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good >result >so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future... > >But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance >not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds) >once we develop panna,panna will do it own job... >my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others >not because you want the good result in the future. >Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. >with Metta, >O > >Amara,Robert and Sarah: > >This is the interpretations from what I understand. >Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. >O 865 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 9:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation > What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. ... The Buddha stresses >the ways to deal with distracting thoughts. >Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation? or they are >strategies to >know the Dhamma? >If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in which >the Budhha >stresses concentration ... Leonardo, I have just had a chance to look at the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. I agree that it deals specifically with samatha bhavana. It is directed to monks intent on the higher thought, adhicitta. This is explained in the commentary as thought, based on vision, in respect of the eight attainments namely the 4 jhanas and the 4 succeeding planes of consciousness. As we know, the Buddha taught about all levels and types of kusala. There are suttas dealing with, in addition to vipassana bhavana, dana (eg the Siha sutta), sila (eg the Sigalovada Sutta) and of course samatha bhavana (eg this Vitakkasanthana Sutta). All kusala is a support for the development of vipassana. Did the Buddha stress samatha bhavana? He stressed all kinds of kusala, at one time or another, as appropriate to the audience and the occasion. But he also stressed on numerous occasions that only vipassana leads to the final eradication of kilesa and to enlightenment. At moments of the other levels of kusala we continue to accumulate the conditions for rebirth. Did he stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of vipassana bhavana, or as being particularly conducive to vipassana bhavana? I don’t find any such teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections of the text ends with the words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled states], his mind subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, concentrated". This is clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no mention in this sutta of release/enlightenment. In terms of the other theme we have been discussing in this thread, I also do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier approach to practice (ie formal and non-formal). But perhaps you have a different interpretation? Do let’s hear it! Jonothan 866 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:52am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear O, I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html Nice to meet you all! mn --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > O wrote: > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. 867 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 5:42am Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear Mn, O, and friends, Since O answered my question, I think that I understand her. See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be within the context. Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-))) I think that what O means is that we perform wholesome deeds, but we don't expect any results. Doing good actions with expectations of result is another way of controlling. However, there is nothing that we can control: nama and rupa are uncontrollable. Moreover, when trying to control, we will solidify the so-called self, which has been leading us around in samsara. Do I understand you correct, dear O? With Metta, AT --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear O, > > I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we > do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of > others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html > > Nice to meet you all! > > mn > > --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" > wrote: > O wrote: > > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not > > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. 868 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 7:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear O and AT, No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of context... mn --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Mn, O, and friends, > > Since O answered my question, I think that I > understand her. > See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be > within the context. > Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-))) > > I think that what O means is that we perform > wholesome deeds, but > we don't expect any results. Doing good actions > with expectations of > result is another way of controlling. However, > there is nothing > that we can control: nama and rupa are > uncontrollable. Moreover, > when trying to control, we will solidify the > so-called self, which > has been leading us around in samsara. > > Do I understand you correct, dear O? > > With Metta, > AT > > --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID > wrote: > > Dear O, > > > > I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha > always taught that > we > > do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for > the benefit of > > others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type > of Individual", > at > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html > > > > Nice to meet you all! > > > > mn > > > > --- "Sarah > Procter Abbott" > > wrote: > O wrote: > > > > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because > benefit others not > > > because you want the good result in the future. > Another ward you > > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. > > 869 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 9:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear mn, Welcome to the discussion and thanks for the comments. Don't worry about giving offense to anyone. We are all here to learn,(we are all big boys and girls here) it is good to be direct; please keep your ideas coming. Dear Alex, Very good points; "However, > > there is nothing > > that we can control: nama and rupa are > > uncontrollable. Moreover, > > when trying to control, we will solidify the > > so-called self, which > > has been leading us around in samsara." The paticcusamupada, divides the factor of grasping, upadana, into 4 categories. Three of these are aspects of wrong view. Self view is at the root of it all; understanding anatta, no self, is the heart of Buddhism. In the Cariyapitaka (p283 of Bhikkhu bodhi translation of The Brahmajala sutta (the net of views)it says "mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of any self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and fall away in accordance with conditions. They do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever". We think "I will help them... I helped them." We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like "I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- but how well is this understood. The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes volition. The moments of giving are conditioned phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition arose because of a complex interjunction of conditions. It needed accumulations of kusala from the past otherwise such a volition could not arise. We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can we understand it is not us? Giving is hindered when we live in the world of concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong practice and at the same time he eradicates stinginess. Robert Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear O and AT, > > No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of > context... > > mn > > > --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > > Dear Mn, O, and friends, > > > > Since O answered my question, I think that I > > understand her. > > See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be > > within the context. > > Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. > :-))) > > > > I think that what O means is that we perform > > wholesome deeds, but > > we don't expect any results. Doing good actions > > with expectations of > > result is another way of controlling. > > > > Do I understand you correct, dear O? > > > > With Metta, > > AT > > 870 From: A T Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 0:11pm Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:14:22 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear O and AT, Dear MN and dhamma friends, Welcome to the group, MN. :-))) I'm new in the group myself. Therefore, I'd like to introduce myself. I've been studying Buddhism for a few years. I feel very fortunate to find out about this DhammaStudyGroup Forum. By the way, my true name is Alexandra Tran, but I often sign my name on the Net as Alex, Alex Tran or AT. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html MN, thank you for posting the website of this wonderful Sutta. I felt very inspired after finishing reading it. With Metta, Alex Tran 871 From: amara chay Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:37pm Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds > Nice to meet you all! Hi! Nice to meet you too, and welcome! Amara 872 From: amara chay Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 8:11pm Subject: Re: Nina's letters Dear Sarah and Pinna, I just received this from Jack, and thought you might be glad to see how much people appreciate Nina's writings, so I have forwarded the message: > >Dear Khun Amara, >Thank you very much for correcting my e-mail addresses in both the >newsletter and in the DSSFB. I've been using "dhammastudy.com" for our >English class and have encouraged other to do the same. We are now studying >"Letter about Vipassana". Looking forward to go to Thailand and Cambodia >and meeting you again in person. I will probably arrive BKK in mid November >and stay until end of December, while I am in Thailand our study group will >continue their study.... We all look forward to the 'new' letters, Amara 873 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:27am Subject: good intentions Dear mn and Alex, I'm also very glad to hear your conributions on the list and I'm glad you've found us. Thankyou Alex for the brief details. If either of you feel like giving a little more 'history' of your study and interest in the dhamma, we'd all be glad to hear. mn, as Robert said, pls don't think twice about replying out of context...we all do it and it's part of the fun of the list discussion. We're all quite direct and often disagree on points. This is often how we learn. We also appreciate your good intentions! I'll comment more on the points later. Keep posting! Sarah > >Dear O and AT, > >No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of >context... > >mn > > 874 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am Subject: Merit and Spiritual Growth - Bhikkhu Bodhi Merit and Spiritual Growth The performance of deeds of merit forms one of the most essential elements of Buddhist practice. Its various modes provide in their totality a compendium of applied Buddhism, showing Buddhism not as a system of ideas but as a complete way of life. Buddhist popular belief has often emphasized merit as a productive source of worldly blessings -- of health, wealth, long life, beauty and friends. As a result of this emphasis, meritorious activity has come to be conceived rather in terms of a financial investment, as a religious business venture yielding returns to the satisfaction of the agent's mundane desires. While such a conception no doubt contains an element of truth, its popularization has tended to eclipse the more important function merit plays in the context of Buddhist practice. Seen in correct perspective, merit is an essential ingredient in the harmony and completeness of the spiritual life, a means of self-cultivation, and an indispensable stepping-stone to spiritual progress. The accumulation of a "stock of merit" is a primary requisite for acquiring all the fruits of the Buddhist religious life, from a pleasant abiding here and now to a favourable rebirth in the life to come, from the initial stages of meditative progress to the realization of the states of sanctity that come as the fruits of entering upon the noble path. The highest fruition of merit is identical with the culmination of the Buddhist holy life itself -- that is, emancipation from the shackles of samsaric existence and the realization of Nibbana, the unconditioned state beyond the insubstantial phenomena of the world. The mere piling up of merit, to be sure, is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the attainment of this goal. Merit is only one requisite, and it must be balanced by its counterpart to secure the breakthrough from bondage to final freedom. The counterpart of merit is knowledge (ñana), the direct confrontation with the basic truths of existence through the eye of intuitive wisdom. Merit and knowledge together constitute the two sets of equipment the spiritual aspirant requires in the quest for deliverance, the equipment of merit (puññasambhara) and the equipment of knowledge (ñanasambhara), respectively. Each set of equipment has its own contribution to make to the fulfillment of the spiritual life. The equipment of merit facilitates progress in the course of samsaric wandering: it brings a favourable rebirth, the encounter with good friends to guide one's footsteps along the path, the meeting with opportunities for spiritual growth, the flowering of the lofty qualities of character, and the maturation of the spiritual faculties required for the higher attainments. The equipment of knowledge brings the factor directly necessary for cutting the bonds of samsaric existence: the penetration of truth, enlightenment, the undistorted comprehension of the nature of actuality. Either set of equipment, functioning in isolation, is insufficient to the attainment of the goal; either pursued alone leads to a deviant, one-sided development that departs from the straight path to deliverance taught by the Buddha. Merit without knowledge produces pleasant fruit and a blissful rebirth, but cannot issue in the transcendence of the mundane order and entrance upon the supramundane path. And knowledge without the factors of merit deteriorates into dry intellectualism, mere erudition or scholasticism, impotent when confronted with the task of grasping a truth outside the pale of intellection. But when they function together in unison in the life of the aspirant, the two sets of equipment acquire a potency capable of propelling him to the heights of realization. When each set of equipment complements the other, polishes the other, and perfects the other, then they undergo a graduated course of mutual purification culminating at the crest in the twin endowments of the Emancipated One -- in that clear knowledge (vijja) and flawless conduct (carana) which make him, in the words of the Buddha, "supreme among gods and humans." But while merit and knowledge thus occupy coordinate positions, it is merit that claims priority from the standpoint of spiritual dynamics. The reason is that works of merit come first in the process of inner growth. If knowledge be the flower that gives birth to the fruit of liberation, and faith (saddha) the seed out of which the flower unfolds, then merit is the soil, water and fertilizer all in one -- the indispensable nutriment for every stage of growth. Merit paves the way for knowledge, and finds in knowledge the sanction for its own claim to a place in the system of Buddhist training. The reason for this particular sequential structure is closely linked to the Buddhist conception of noetic realization. From the Buddhist standpoint the comprehension of spiritual truth is not a matter of mere intellectual cogitation but of existential actualization. That is, it is a matter of grasping with our whole being the truth towards which we aspire, and of inwardly appropriating that truth in a manner so total and complete that our being becomes transformed into a very reflex and effusion of the truth upon which we stand. The understanding of truth in the context of the spiritual life, in other words, is no affair of accumulating bits and pieces of information publicly accessible and subjectively indifferent; it is, rather, a process of uncovering the deepest truths about ourselves and about the world, and of working the understanding that emerges into the entire complex of the inner life. Hence the use of the words "actualization" and "realization," which bring into the open the ontological backdrop underlying the noetic process. In order to grasp truth in this totalistic manner at any particular stage of spiritual development, the tenor of our inner being must be raised to a pitch where it is fit for the reception of some new disclosure of the truth. Wisdom and character, though not identical, are at any rate parallel terms, which in most cases mature in a delicately balanced ratio. We can grasp only what we are fit to grasp, and our fitness is largely a function of our character. The existential comprehension of truth thus becomes a matter of inward worth, of deservingness, or of merit. The way to effect this inward worthiness is by the performance of works of merit, not merely outwardly, but backed by the proper attitudes and disposition of mind. For the capacity to comprehend truths pertaining to the spiritual order is always proportional to the store and quality of accumulated merit. The greater and finer the merit, the larger and deeper the capacity for understanding. This principle holds at each level of maturation in the ascent towards full realization, and applies with special force to the comprehension of ultimate truth. Ultimate truth, in the Buddha's Teaching, is Nibbana, the unconditioned element (asankhata dhatu), and realization of ultimate truth the realization of Nibbana. Nibbana is the perfection of purity: the destruction of all passions, the eradication of clinging, the abolition of every impulse towards self-affirmation. The final thrust to the realization of Nibbana is the special province of wisdom, since wisdom alone is adequate to the task of comprehending all conditioned phenomena in their essential nature as impermanent, suffering and not-self, and of turning away from them to penetrate the unconditioned, where alone permanent freedom from suffering is to be found. But that this penetration may take place, our interior must be made commensurate in purity with the truth it would grasp, and this requires in the first instance that it be purged of all those elements obstructive to the florescence of a higher light and knowledge. The apprehension of Nibbana, this perfect purity secluded from the dust of passion, is only possible when a corresponding purity has been set up within ourselves. For only a pure mind can discern, through the dark mist of ignorance and defilement, the spotless purity of Nibbana, abiding in absolute solitude beyond the turmoil of the phenomenal procession. The achievement of such a purification of our inward being is the work of merit. Merit scours the mind of the coarser defilements, attenuates the grip of the unwholesome roots, and fortifies the productive power of the wholesome, beneficial states. Through its cumulative force it provides the foundation for wisdom's final breakthrough to the unconditioned. It is the fuel, so to speak, for the ascent of wisdom from the mundane to the supramundane. Just as the initial stages of a lunar rocket work up the momentum that enables the uppermost stage to break the gravitational pull of the earth and reach the moon, so does merit give to the spiritual life that forward thrust that will propel the wisdom-faculty past the gravitational pull of the mundane order and permit it to penetrate the transcendental truth. The classical Buddhist commentators underscore this preparatory purgative function of merit when they define merit (puñña) etymologically as "that which purges and purifies the mental continuum" (santanam punati visodheti). Merit performs its purgative function in the context of a complex process involving an agent and object of purification, and a mode of operation by which the purification takes place. The agent of purification is the mind itself, in its creative, formative role as the source and matrix of action. Deeds of merit are, as we have already seen, instances of wholesome kamma, and kamma ultimately reduces to volition. Therefore, at the fundamental level of analysis, a deed of merit consists in a volition, a determinative act of will belonging to the righteous order (puññabhisankhara). Since volition is a mode of mental activity, this means that merit turns out, under scrutiny, to be a mode of mental activity. It is, at the core of the behaviour-pattern which serves as its vehicle, a particular application of thought by which the mind marshalls its components for the achievement of a chosen end. This discovery cautions us against misconstruing the Buddhist stress on the practice of merit as a call for blind subjection to rules and rites. The primary instrument behind any act of merit, from the Buddhist point of view, is the mind. The deed itself in its physical or vocal dimension serves mainly as an expression of a corresponding state of consciousness, and without a keen awareness of the nature and significance of the meritorious deed, the bare outward act is devoid of purgative value. Even when rules of conduct are observed, or rituals and worship performed with a view to the acquisition of merit, the spiritual potency of these structures derives not from any intrinsic sanctity they might possess in themselves, but from their effectiveness in channelizing the current of mental activity in a spiritual beneficial direction. They function, in effect, as skillful means or expedient devices for inducing wholesome states of consciousness. Mechanical conformity to moral rules, or the performance of religious duties through unquestioning obedience to established forms, far from serving as a means to salvation, in the Buddhist outlook actually constitute obstacles. They are instances of "clinging to rules and rituals" (silabbataparamasa), the third of the fetters (samyojana) binding beings to the wheel of becoming, which must be abandoned in order to enter upon the path to final deliverance. Even in such relatively external forms of merit-making as the undertaking of moral precepts and ceremonial worship, mindfulness and clear comprehension are essential; much more, then, are they necessary to the predominantly internal modes of meritorious activity, such as meditation or the study of the Dhamma. The object of the purifying process of merit is again the mind, only here considered not from the standpoint of its immediacy, as a creative source of action, but from the standpoint of its duration, as a continuum (cittasantana). For, looked at from the temporal point of view, the mind is no stable entity enduring self-identical through its changing activities; it is, rather, a serial continuity composed of discrete acts of mentation bound to one another by exact laws of causal interconnection. Each thought-unit flashes into being, persists for an extremely brief moment, and then perishes, passing on to its immediate successor its storage of recorded impressions. Each individual member of the series inherits, preserves and transmits, along with its own novel modifications, the entire content of the series as a whole, which thus underlies every one of its components. Thence the series maintains, despite its discontinuous composition, an element of uniformity that gives to the flow of separate thought-moments the character of a continuum. This sequential current of mentation has been going on, according to Buddhism, without discernible beginning. Driven forward from life to life by ignorance and craving, it appears now in one mode of manifestation, now in another. Embedded in the mental continuum throughout its beginningless journey is a host of particularly afflictive and disruptive mental forces known as kilesas, "defilements." Foremost among them are the three unwholesome roots -- greed, hatred and delusion; from this triad spring the remaining members of the set, such as pride, opinion, selfishness, envy, sloth and restlessness. During moments of passivity the defilements lie dormant at the base of the mental continuum, as anusaya or latent tendencies. But when, either through the impact of outer sensory stimuli or their own subliminal process of growth, they acquire sufficient force, they surge to the surface of consciousness in the form of obsessions (pariyutthana). The obsessions pollute the mind with their toxic flow and rebound upon the deeper levels of consciousness, reinforcing their roots at the base of the continuum. If they should gather still additional charge, the defilements may reach the even more dangerous stage of transgression (vitikkama), when they erupt as bodily or verbal actions that violate the fundamental laws of morality and lead to pain and suffering as their retributive consequence. When merit is said to "purge and purify the mental continuum," it is so described in reference to its capacity to arrest the surging tide of the defilements which threatens to sweep the mind towards the perilous deep of transgressional action. Only wisdom -- the supramundane wisdom of the noble paths -- can eradicate the defilements at the level of latency, which is necessary if the bonds of existence are to be broken and deliverance attained. But the practice of merit can contribute much towards attenuating their obsessive force and establishing a foothold for wisdom to exercise its liberating function. Wisdom can operate only upon the base of a purified mind; the accumulation of merit purifies the mind; hence merit provides the supporting condition for wisdom. When the mind is allowed to flow according to its own momentum, without restraint or control, like a turbulent river it casts up to the surface -- i.e., to the level of active consciousness -- the store of pollutants it harbours at its base: lust, hatred, delusion, and their derivative defilements. If the defilements are then given further scope to grow by indulging them, they will wither the potential for good, darken the beam of awareness, and strangle the faculty of wisdom until it is reduced to a mere vestige. The performance of meritorious deeds serves as a means of resisting the upsurge of defiling states, of replacing them with their wholesome opposites, and of thereby purifying the mental continuum to an extent sufficient to supply wisdom with the storage of strength it requires in the work of abolishing the defilements. The effectiveness of merit in purifying the mental continuum stems from the concordance of a number of psychological laws. These laws, which can only be indicated briefly here, together function as the silent groundwork for the efficacy of the entire corpus of Buddhist spiritual practice. The first is the law that only one state of consciousness can occur at a time; though seemingly trivial, this law leads to important consequences when taken in conjunction with the rest. The second holds that states of consciousness with mutually opposed ethical qualities cannot coexist. The third stipulates that all the factors of consciousness -- feeling, perception, volition and the remaining states included in the "aggregate of mental formations" -- must partake of the same ethical quality as the consciousness itself. A kammically active state of consciousness is either entirely wholesome, or entirely unwholesome; it cannot (by the second law) be both. Therefore, if a wholesome state is occurring, no unwholesome state can simultaneously occur. A wholesome, spiritually beneficial state of consciousness necessarily shuts out every unwholesome, detrimental state, as well as (by the third law) all unwholesome concomitant factors of consciousness. So at the moment one is performing an act of merit, the consciousness and volition behind that meritorious deed will automatically preclude an unwholesome consciousness, volition, and the associated defilements. At that moment, at least, the consciousness will be pure. And the frequent performance of meritorious acts will, on every occasion, bar out the opportunity for the defilements to arise at the time of their performance. Thus the performance of deeds of merit always induces a momentary purification, while the frequent performance of such deeds induces many occasions of momentary purification. But that some more durable result might be achieved an additional principle is necessary. This principle is supplied by the fourth law. The fourth law holds that repetition confers strength. Just as the exercise of a particular muscle can transform that muscle from a frail, ineffectual strip of flesh into a dynamo of power and strength, so the repeated exercise of individual mental qualities can remodel them from sleeping soldiers into invincible warriors in the spiritual quest. Repetition is the key to the entire process of self-transformation which constitutes the essence of the spiritual life. It is the very grounding that makes self-transformation possible. By force of repetition the fragile, tender shoots of the pure and wholesome qualities -- faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom -- can blossom into sovereign faculties (indriya) in the struggle for enlightenment, or into indomitable powers (bala) in the battle against the defilements. By repeated resistance to the upsurge of evil and repeated application to the cultivation of the good, the demon can become a god and the criminal a saint. If repetition provides the key to self-transformation, then volition provides the instrument through which repetition works. Volition acts as a vector force upon the mental continuum out of which it emerges, reorienting the continuum according to its own moral tone. Each act of will recedes with its passing into the onward rushing current of mentation and drives the current in its own direction. Wholesome volitions direct the continuum towards the good -- towards purity, wisdom and ultimate liberation; unwholesome volitions drive it towards the evil -- towards defilement, ignorance and inevitable bondage. Every occasion of volition modifies the mental life in some way and to some degree, however slight, so that the overall character of an individual at any one time stands as a reflex and revelation of the volitions accumulated in the continuum. Since the will propels the entire current of mental life in its own direction, it is the will which must be strengthened by force of repetition. The restructuring of mental life can only take place through the reformation of the will by leading it unto wholesome channels. The effective channel for re-orientation of the will is the practice of merit. When the will is directed towards the cultivation of merit, it will spontaneously hamper the stream of defilements and bolster the company of noble qualities in the storage of the continuum. Under its gentle tutelage the factors of purity will awaken from their dormant condition and take their place as regular propensities in the personality. A will devoted to the practice of charity will generate kindness and compassion; a will devoted to the observance of the precepts will generate harmlessness, honesty, restraint, truthfulness and sobriety; a will devoted to mental culture will generate calm and insight. Faith, reverence, humility, sympathy, courage and equanimity will come to growth. Consciousness will gain in tranquillity, buoyancy, pliancy, agility and proficiency. And a consciousness made pure by these factors will advance without hindrance through the higher attainments in meditation and wisdom to the realization of Nibbana, the consummation of spiritual endeavour. The Path of Understanding Prince Siddhattha renounced the life of the palace and entered the forest as a hermit seeking a solution to the problem of suffering. Six years after entering he came out a Buddha, ready to show others the path he had found so that they too could work out their deliverance. It was the experience of being bound to the perishable and unsatisfying that gave the impetus to the Buddha's original quest, and it was the certainty of having found the unperishing and perfectly complete that inspired the execution of his mission. Thence the Buddha could sum up his Teaching in the single phrase: "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." But though the Buddha's Teaching might be simple in its statement, the meaning behind the verbal formulation is profound and precise. The Buddha envisages suffering in its full range and essence rather than in its mere manifest forms. It is not just physical or mental pain that he means by suffering, but the recurrent revolution of the wheel of becoming, with its spokes of birth, ageing and death. Taking our immersion in a condition intrinsically inadequate as the starting point of his doctrine, he devotes the remainder to showing the way out of this condition. The solution the Buddha offers to the problem of suffering draws its cogency from the strict logic of causality. Suffering is neither an accident nor an imposition from without, but a contingent phenomenon arising through the force of conditions. It hangs upon a specific set of supports, and is therefore susceptible to treatment by tackling the genetic structure which maintains it in being. By removing the conditions out of which it arises, it is possible to bring the whole phenomenon of suffering to an end. In order to reach the state of emancipation, it is of the first importance that the causal chain which originates suffering be snapped in the right place. Any proposed solution which does not remedy the problem of suffering at its source will eventually prove to be only a palliative, not a final cure. That the chain be broken in the right place requires an accurate determination of the interconnection of its links. The chain must be traced back to its most fundamental factor and cut off at that very point. Then suffering will no longer be able to arise. According to the Buddha's Teaching, the primary link in the sequence of conditions generating suffering is ignorance (avijja). Ignorance is a primordial blindness to the true nature of phenomena; it is a lack of understanding of things as they really are. It functions as a mental obscuration cloaking our normal process of cognition and permeating our thought patterns with distortion and error. Among the various misconceptions produced by ignorance, the most basic is the apprehension of phenomena through the category of substantial existence. Phenomena are not isolated units locked up in themselves, but participants in an interconnected field of events. Their being derives from the entire system of relata to which they belong, not from some immutable core of identity intrinsic to themselves. Thence they are devoid of an abiding essence; their mode of being is insubstantial, relational and interdependent. However, under the influence of ignorance, this essenceless nature of phenomena is not understood. It is blotted out by the basic unawareness, and as a consequence, phenomena present themselves to cognition in a mode different from their actual mode of being. They appear substantial, self-subsistent, and exclusivistic. The sphere where this illusion is most immediately felt is the sphere where it is most accessible to us -- namely, our own experience. The experiential domain is reflectively divisible into two sectors -- a cognizing or subjective sector made up of consciousness and its adjuncts, and a cognized or objective sector made up of the cognitive data. Though the two sectors are interlocking and mutually dependent, through the operation of ignorance they are conceptually bifurcated and reduced to an adventitious subject-object confrontation. On the one side the cognizing sector is split off from the experiential complex and conceived as a subject distinct from the cognitive act itself; the objective sector in turn congeals into a world of external things pointing to the subject as its field of action and concern. Consciousness awakens to itself as a persisting ego standing up against the world as an "other" perpetually estranged from itself. Thence it commences its long career of conquest, control and domination in order to justify its own suspect claim to a self-subsistent mode of being. This cognitive error with its consequent solidification of the ego is the source of the afflictions (kilesa) which hold us in subjection to suffering. The lurking suspicion that the mode of being we credit to ourselves may be unfounded arouses an inner disquietude, a chronic anxiety compelling a drive to fortify the sense of egoity and give it solid ground on which to stand. We need to establish our existence to ourselves, to give inner confirmation to our conception of personal substantiality, and this need occasions the ordering of the psychic life around the focal point of ego. The bid for self-confirmation makes its impact felt on both the emotional and intellectual fronts. The dominion of the ego in the emotional sphere appears most conspicuously in the weight of the unwholesome roots -- greed, hatred and delusion -- as determinants of conduct. Because the ego is essentially a vacuum, the illusion of egohood generates a nagging sense of insufficiency. We feel oppressed by an aching incompleteness, an inner lack requiring constantly to be filled. The result is greed, a relentless drive to reach out and devour whatever we can -- of pleasure, wealth, power and fame -- in a never successful attempt to bring the discomfort fully to an end. When our drive to satisfaction meets with frustration we react with hatred, the urge to destroy the obstacle between our desire and its satisfaction. If the obstructions to our satisfaction prove too powerful for the tactics of aggression, a third strategy will be used: dullness or delusion, an attitude of deliberate unawareness adopted as a shell to hide our vulnerability to pain. On the intellectual front the ego-illusion engenders a move by reason to establish on logical grounds the existence of a substantial self. The idea "I am" is a spontaneous notion born of ignorance, the basic unawareness of the egoless nature of phenomena. By accepting this idea at its face value, as pointing to a real "I," and by attempting to fill in the reference, we develop a "view of self," a belief confirming the existence of a self and giving it an identity in the framework of our psycho-physical constitution. The theories which emerge invariably fall into one or another of the two metaphysical extremes -- either eternalism when we assume the self to enjoy eternal existence after death, or annihilationism, when we assume the self to be extinguished at death. Neither doctrine can be established on absolutely compelling grounds, for both are rounded on a common error: the assumption of a self as an enduring, substantial entity. Because the pivot of our cognitive adherences and their emotional ramifications is the notion of an ego, a powerful current of psychic energy comes to be invested in our interpretive schemes. And because the notion of an ego is in actuality groundless, the product of a fundamental misconception, this investment of energy brings only disappointment in the end. We cling to things in the hope that they will be permanent, satisfying and substantial, and they turn out to be impermanent, unsatisfying and insubstantial. We seek to impose our will upon the order of events, and we find that events obey a law of their own, insubordinate to our urge towards control. The result of our clinging is eventual suffering. Yet this suffering which arises from the breakdown of our egocentric attempts at dominance and manipulation is not entirely negative in value. It contains a tremendous positive value, a vast potential, for by shattering our presumptions it serves to awaken our basic intelligence and set us on the quest for liberation. It forces us to discover the ultimate futility of our drive to structure the world from the standpoint of the ego, and makes us recognize the need to acquire a new perspective free from the compulsive patterns which keep us tied to suffering. Since the most fundamental factor in the bondage of the ego is ignorance, to reach this new perspective ignorance must be eliminated. To eliminate ignorance it is not sufficient merely to observe rules of conduct, to generate faith, devotion and virtue, or even to develop a calm and concentrated mind. All these are requisites to be sure, essential and powerful aids along the path, but even in unison they are not enough. Something more is required, some other element that alone can ensure the complete severing of the conditional nexus sustaining the round of samsaric suffering. That something more is understanding. The path to liberation is essentially a path of understanding. Its core is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are: "It is for one who knows and sees that the destruction of the defilements takes place, not for one who does not know and does not see." The objective domain where understanding is to be aroused is our own experience. Since our distorted interpretations of our experience provide the food which nourishes the process of ego, it is here, in experience, that the ego-illusion must be dispelled. Our own experience is, of all things, that which is "closest to ourselves," for it is through this that everything else is registered and known. And yet, though so close, our own experience is at the same time shrouded in darkness, its true characteristics hidden from our awareness by the screen of ignorance. The Buddha's Teaching is the key which helps us to correct our understanding, enabling us to see things as they are. It is the light which dispels the darkness of ignorance, so that we can understand our own understanding of things "just as a man with eyes might see forms illuminated by a lamp." The correct understanding of experience takes place in the context of meditation. It requires the development of insight (vipassana) based on a foundation of meditative calm (samatha). No amount of merely intellectual knowledge can replace the need for personal realization. Because our tendency to misconceive phenomena persists through a blindness to their true nature, only the elimination of this blindness through direct vision can rectify our erroneous patterns of cognition. The practice of Buddhist meditation is not a way of dissolving our sense of individual identity in some undifferentiated absolute or of withdrawing into the bliss of a self-contained interiority. It is, rather, a way of understanding the nature of things through the portal where that nature is most accessible to ourselves, namely, our own processes of body and of mind. The practice of meditation has profound effects upon our sense of identity; the alterations it produces, however, do not come about by subordinating the intelligence to some uncritically accepted generalization, but through a detached, sober and exhaustive scrutiny of the experiential field that provides the locus for our sense of identity. The focal method of the practice of meditation is reflective awareness, a bending back of the beam of awareness upon itself in order to illuminate the true characteristics of existence implicated in each occasion of cognition. The path of understanding unfolds in three successive stages called "the three full understandings." In the first stage, the "full understanding of the known" (natapariñña), the domain of experience is broken down by meditative analysis into its constituting factors, which are then carefully defined in terms of their salient qualities and functions. The categories employed in this operation are the key terms in the Buddhist analysis of personality -- the aggregates (khandha), sense bases (ayatana), and elements (dhatu). The purpose of this dissection is to dispel the illusion of substantiality that hovers over our gross perception of our experience. By revealing that what common sense takes to be a solid monolithic whole is in reality a conglomeration of discrete factors, the contemplation deprives the sense of self-identification of its chief support, the notion of the ego as a simple unity. The factors which emerge from this analytical investigation are then correlated with their causes and conditions, disclosing their contingency and lack of independence. The second stage of understanding is the "full understanding of scrutinization" (tiranapariñña). At this stage the experiential field is examined, not as before in terms of its individuating features, but by way of its universal marks. These universal marks are three: impermanence (anicca), suffering (dukkha) and non-self (anatta). Under the limitations of ordinary cognition, phenomena are apprehended as permanent, pleasurable and self. In the contemplative situation these assumptions must be corrected, replaced by the perception of phenomena as impermanent, unpleasurable and non-self. The task of the meditative process, at this level, is to ascribe these qualities to the material and mental processes, and to attempt to view all phenomena in their light. When the second stage is fully mature, it gives way gradually to the third type of comprehension, the "full understanding of abandonment" (pahanapariñña). Here the momentary insights achieved at the previous level blossom into full penetrations. Impermanence, suffering and selflessness are no longer merely understood as qualities of phenomena, but are seen with complete clarity as the nature of phenomena themselves. These realizations bring about the final abandonment of the deluded perceptions as well as the destruction of the ego-tainted emotions which cluster around them. To walk the path of understanding is to begin to see through the deceptions which have held our imaginations captive through the long stretch of beginningless time. It is to outgrow our passions and prejudices, and to cast off the mask of false identities we are accustomed to assume, the vast array of identities that constitute our wandering in samsaric existence. The path is not an easy one, but calls for great effort and personal integrity. Its reward lies in the happiness of growing freedom which accompanies each courageous step, and the ultimate emancipation which lies at the end. About the Author Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Buddhist monk of American nationality, born in New York City in 1944. After completing a doctorate in philosophy at Claremont Graduate School, he came to Sri Lanka in 1972 for the purpose of entering the Sangha. He received pabbajja (novice ordination) in 1972 and upasampada (higher ordination) in 1973, both under the eminent scholar-monk, the Venerable Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, with whom he studied Pall and Dhamma. He is the author of several works on Theravada Buddhism, including four translations of major Pali suttas along with their commentaries. Since 1984 he has been the Editor for the Buddhist Publication Society and its President since 1988. Revised: Sat 17 October 1998 http://world.std.com/~metta/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html 875 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am Subject: Nourishing The Roots, Essays on Buddhist Ethics - Bhikkhu Bodhi Nourishing The Roots Essays on Buddhist Ethics Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 259/260 Copyright © 1990 Buddhist Publication Society Buddhist Publication Society P.O. Box 61 54, Sangharaja Mawatha Kandy, Sri Lanka For free distribution only. You may print copies of this work for your personal use. You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer networks, provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use. Otherwise, all rights reserved. This edition was transcribed from the print edition in 1995 by Jim McLaughlin and Jane Yudelman under the auspices of the DharmaNet Dharma Book Transcription Project, with the kind permission of the Buddhist Publication Society. Nourishing the Roots The course of spiritual training taught by the Buddha is a double process of self-transformation and self-transcendence issuing in complete emancipation from suffering. The process of self-transformation involves the elimination of unwholesome mental dispositions and their replacement by pure dispositions conducing to the benefit of oneself and others; the process of self-transcendence focuses on the abandoning of egocentric notions by seeing with direct insight the essenceless nature of the bodily and mental processes we normally take to be "I" and "mine." When this double process is brought to its culmination, suffering is extinguished, for with the awakening of wisdom the basic root of suffering -- craving backed by blinding ignorance -- falls away never to rise again. Because the unwholesome tendencies and selfish clinging spring from seeds buried deep in the bottom-most strata of the mind, to eradicate these sources of affliction and nurture the growth of the liberating vision of reality the Buddha presents his teaching in the form of a gradual training. Buddhist discipline involves gradual practice and gradual attainment. It does not burst into completeness at a stroke, but like a tree or any other living organism, it unfolds organically, as a sequence of stages in which each stage rests upon its predecessor as its indispensable foundation and gives rise to its successor as its natural consequent. The principal stages of this gradual training are three: the training in sila or virtue, the training in samadhi or concentration, and the training in pañña or wisdom. If we follow through the comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, faith (saddha) would be the seed, for it is faith that provides the initial impulse through which the training is taken up, and faith again that nourishes the training through every phase of its development. Virtue would be the roots, for it is virtue that gives grounding to our spiritual endeavours just as the roots give grounding to a tree. Concentration would be the trunk, the symbol of strength, non-vacillation, and stability. And wisdom would be the branches, which yield the flowers of enlightenment and the fruits of deliverance. The vigour of the spiritual life, like the vigour of a tree, depends upon healthy roots. Just as a tree with weak and shallow roots cannot flourish but will grow up stunted, withered and barren, so a spiritual life devoid of strong roots will also have a stunted growth incapable of bearing fruit. To attempt to scale the higher stages of the path it is essential at the outset to nourish the proper roots of the path; otherwise the result will be frustration, disillusionment, and perhaps even danger. The roots of the path are the constituents of sila, the factors of moral virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher achievement. To say that sila is the precondition for success, however, does not mean, as is too often believed in conservative Buddhist circles, that one cannot begin to meditate until one's sila is perfect. Such a stipulation would make it almost impossible to start meditation, since it is the mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom of the meditative process that bring about the gradual purification of virtue. But to say that virtue is the basis of practice does mean that the capacity for achievement in meditation hinges upon the purity of our sila. If our roots of virtue are weak, our meditation will likewise be weak. If our actions repeatedly clash with the basic principles of right conduct, our attempts to control the mind in the discipline of meditation will turn into a self-defeating enterprise, since the springs of our conduct will be the same defiled states of mind the meditation is intended to eliminate. Only when we secure our cultivation upon the foundation of blameless principles of right action can the inward endeavour of meditation prosper and issue in success. With true principles of conduct as the base, the roots of virtue will give birth to the trunk of concentration, the concentrated mind shoot forth the branches of wisdom, and the branches of wisdom yield the flowers and fruits of enlightenment, culminating in total freedom from bondage. Therefore, just as a skillful gardener brings a sapling to growth by first tending to the roots, so the earnest seeker of enlightenment should begin his cultivation by tending to the roots of his practice -- that is, to his sila or moral virtue. The Pali word sila originally meant simply conduct. But in the context of the Buddhist spiritual training the term is used to signify only a specific kind of conduct, i.e., good conduct, and by an extension of meaning, the type of character for which such conduct stands, i.e., good character. Hence sila means both moral conduct, a body of habits governed by moral principles, and moral virtue, the interior quality the regular observance of these principles is intended to produce. Both shades of meaning are essential to understand the place of sila in the spectrum of Buddhist discipline. Sila in the former sense consists in the non-transgression through body or speech of the basic precepts regulating the moral life. It is moral discipline in deed and word, beginning as the inhibition of immoral impulses seeking an outlet through body and speech, and developing into the habitual conformation to the principles of righteous conduct. But the full range of sila is not exhausted by mere outward behavioural control, for the term has in addition a deeper, more psychological significance. In this second sense sila is moral purity, the inner purification of character which results from a life consistently moulded upon moral principles. This aspect of sila places the stress on the subjective, motivational side of action. It looks not towards the outward act itself, but towards the rectitude of mind from which good conduct springs. Upon inspection sila thus reveals itself to be a two- dimensional quality: it contains an external dimension consisting in purification of conduct, and an internal dimension consisting in purification of character. However, in the Teaching of the Buddha, these two dimensions of experience, the internal and the external, are not torn apart and consigned to separate, self-sufficient domains. They are recognized, rather, to be two facets of a single whole, complementary poles of a unified field which mirror one another, implicate one another, and penetrate one another with their own respective potentialities of influence. Actions performed by body and speech are not, from the Buddhist standpoint, so many detachable appendages of a distinct spiritual essence, but concrete revelations of the states of mind which stand behind them as their activating source. And states of mind, in turn, do not remain closed up in a purely mental isolation, but spill forth according to the play of circumstances from the fountain of consciousness where they arise, through the channels of body, speech and thought, out into the world of inter-personally significant events. From the action we can infer the state of mind, and from the state of mind we can predict the probable course of action. The relationship between the two is as integral as that between a musical score and its orchestrated performance on the concert stage. Because of this mutual dependence of the two domains, moral conduct and purity of character lock up with one another in a subtle and complex interrelationship. The fulfillment of the purification of virtue requires that both aspects of sila be realized: on the one side, behaviour of body and speech must be brought into accord with the moral ideal; on the other, the mental disposition must be cleansed of its corruptions until it is impeccably pure. The former without the latter is insufficient; the latter without the former is impossible. Between the two, the internal aspect is the more important from the standpoint of spiritual development, since bodily and verbal deeds acquire ethical significance primarily as expressions of a corresponding disposition of mind. In the sequence of spiritual training, however, it is moral discipline that comes first. For at the beginning of training, purification of character stands as an ideal which must be reached; it is not a reality with which one can start. According to the Buddhist principle of conditionality, the actualization of any given state is only possible through the actualization of its appropriate conditions, and this applies as much to the achievement of the various stages of the training as to the bare phenomena of matter and mind. Since beginningless time the consciousness-continuum has been corrupted by the unwholesome roots of greed, hatred and delusion; it is these defilements which have functioned as the source for the greatest number of our thoughts, the ground for our habits, and the springs for our actions and general orientation towards other people and the world as a whole. To uproot these defiling afflictions at a single stroke and reach the peak of spiritual perfection by a mere act of will is a well-near impossible task. A realistic system of spiritual training must work with the raw material of human nature; it cannot rest content merely with postulated paragons of human excellence or demands for achievement without showing the method by which such demands can be realized. The Buddha rests his teaching upon the thesis that with the right method we have the capacity to change and transform ourselves. We are not doomed to be for ever burdened by the weight of accumulated tendencies, but through our own effort we can cast off all these tendencies and attain a condition of complete purity and freedom. When given the proper means in the context of right understanding, we can bring about radical alterations in the workings of consciousness and mould a new shape out of the seemingly immutable stuff of our own minds. The first step on this path is the purification of character, and the efficient means for the restructuring of character the Buddha provides in the observance of sila as a set of precepts regulating bodily and verbal conduct. Sila as moral discipline, in other words, becomes the means for inducing sila as moral virtue. The effectiveness of this measure stems from the reciprocal interlocking of the internal and external spheres of experience already referred to. Because the inner and outer domains are mutually implicated, the one can become the means for producing deep and lasting changes in the other. Just as a state of mind expresses itself outwardly in an action -- in deed or speech -- so too the avoidance and performance of certain actions can recoil upon the mind and alter the basic disposition of the mental life. If mental states dominated by greed and hatred can engender deeds of killing, stealing, lying, etc., then the abstinence on principle from killing, stealing and lying can engender a mental disposition towards kindliness, contentment, honesty and truthfulness. Thus, although sila as moral purity may not be the starting point of spiritual training, conformity to righteous standards of conduct can make it an attainable end. The medium which bridges the two dimensions of sila, facilitating the translation of outward behaviour into inner purity, is volition or cetana. Volition is a mental factor common to every occasion of experience, a universal concomitant of every act of consciousness. It is the factor which makes experience teleological, i.e., oriented to a goal, since its specific function is to direct its associated factors towards the attainment of a particular end. All action (kamma), the Buddha teaches, is in essence volition, for the act itself is from the ultimate standpoint a manifestation of volition through one of the three doors of action -- body, speech or mind: "It is volition, bhikkhus, that I call action. For having willed, one performs an action through body, speech, or mind." Volition determines an action as being of a definite sort, and thence imparts to action its moral significance. But since volition is invariably present in every state of consciousness, it is in its own nature without ethical distinctiveness. Volition acquires its distinctive ethical quality from certain other mental factors known as roots (mula), in association with which it always arises on occasions of active experience. Roots are of two morally determinate kinds: unwholesome (akusala) and wholesome (kusala). The unwholesome roots are greed, hatred and delusion; the wholesome roots are non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. These latter, though expressed negatively, signify not merely the absence of the defiling factors, but the presence of positive moral qualities as well; generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom, respectively. When volition is driven by the unwholesome roots of greed, hatred and delusion, it breaks out through the doors of the body and speech in the form of evil deeds -- as killing, stealing and fornication, as lying, slander, harsh speech and gossip. In this way the inner world of mental defilement darkens the outer world of spatio-temporal extension. But the defiled trend of volitional movement, though strong, is not irrevocable. Unwholesome volition can be supplanted by wholesome volition, and thence the entire disposition of the mental life made subject to a reversal at its foundation. This redirecting of volition is initiated by voluntarily undertaking the observance of principles of conduct belonging to a righteous order -- by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the good. Then, when volition tending to break out as evil action is restrained and replaced by volition of the opposite kind, by the will to behave virtuously in word and deed, a process of reversal will have been started which, if followed through, can produce far-reaching alterations in the moral tone of character. For acts of volition do not spend their full force in their immediate exercise, but rebound upon the mental current which gave birth to them, re-orienting that current in the direction towards which they point as their own immanent tendency: the unwholesome volitions towards moral depravation, and the wholesome volitions towards moral purification. Each time, therefore, an unwholesome volition is supplanted by its wholesome opposite, the will to the good is strengthened. A process of factor substitution, built upon the law that incompatible mental qualities cannot be simultaneously present on a single occasion of experience, then completes the transformation through the efficacity of the associated roots. Just as unwholesome volitions invariably arise in association with the unwholesome roots -- with greed, hatred and delusion -- so do wholesome volitions inevitably bring along with them as their concomitants the wholesome roots of non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. Since opposite qualities cannot co-exist, the replacement of unwholesome volition by wholesome volition at the same time means the transposition of the unwholesome and the wholesome roots. Continually called into play by the surge of volition, the wholesome roots "perfume" the mental stream with the qualities for which they stand -- with generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom; and these, as they gather cumulative force, come to prominence as regular propensities of the personality, eclipsing the inclination towards the unwholesome. In this way the exercise of wholesome volitions on repeated and varied occasions effects a transformation of character from its initial moral susceptibility to a pitch of purity where even the temptation to evil remains at a safe remove. Though volition or cetana is the primary instrument of change, the will in itself is indeterminate, and requires specific guidelines to direct its energy towards the actualization of the good. A mere "good will,' from the Buddhist standpoint, is altogether inadequate, for despite the nobility of the intention, as long as the intelligence of the agent is clouded with the dust of delusion, the possibility always lies open that laudable motives might express themselves in foolish or even destructive courses of action. This has been the case often enough in the past, and still stands as the perennial bugbear of the ethical generalist. According to the Buddhist outlook, goodness of will must be translated into concrete courses of action. It must be regulated by specific principles of right conduct, principles which, though flexible in their application, possess normative validity independently of any historical culture or existing scheme of values, entirely by virtue of their relation to a universal law of moral retribution and their place in the timeless path of practice leading to deliverance from suffering and the samsaric round. To guide the will in its aspiration for the good, the Buddha has prescribed in definite and lucid terms the factors of moral training which must be fulfilled to safeguard progress along the path to enlightenment. These factors are comprised in the three items which make up the aggregate of virtue in the Noble Eightfold Path: namely, right speech, right action, and right livelihood. Right speech is the avoidance of all harmful forms of speech -- the abstinence from falsehood, slander, harsh speech and idle chatter. The speech of the aspirant must be constantly truthful, conducive to harmony, gentle and meaningful. Right action applies a brake upon unwholesome bodily action, by prescribing abstinence from the destruction of life, from stealing, and from sexual misconduct; the latter means incelibacy in the case of monks, and adultery and other illicit relations in the case of householders. The behaviour of the aspirant must always be compassionate, honest and pure. And right livelihood requires the avoidance of trades which inflict harm and suffering upon other living beings, such as dealing in meat, slaves, weapons, poisons and intoxicants. Avoiding such harmful trades, the noble disciple earns his living by a peaceful and righteous occupation. The training factors embedded in these components of the Noble Eightfold Path simultaneously inhibit the base, ignoble and destructive impulses of the human mind and promote the performance of whatever is noble and pure. Though worded negatively, in terms of the types of conduct they are intended to shut out, they are positive in effect, for when adopted as guidelines to action, they stimulate the growth of healthy mental attitudes which come to expression as beneficient courses of conduct. Intensively, these training rules reach into the recesses of the mind, blunt the force of unwholesome volition, and redirect the will to the attainment of the good. Extensively, they reach into the commotion of man's social existence, and arrest the tide of competition, exploitation, grasping, violence and war. In their psychological dimension they confer mental health, in their social dimension they promote peace, in their spiritual dimension they serve as the irreplaceable foundation for all higher progress along the path to emancipation. Regularly undertaken and put into practice, they check all mental states rooted in greed, hatred and delusion, promote actions rooted in non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion, and lead to a life of charity, love and wisdom. From this it will be seen that from the Buddhist point of view formulated rules of conduct are not superfluous accessories to a good will, but necessary guidelines to right action. They are an essential part of the training, and when implemented by the force of volition, become a fundamental means to purification. Especially in the context of the practice of meditation, the training precepts prevent the eruption of defiled actions destructive to the purpose of the meditative discipline. By following carefully the prescribed rules of conduct, we can rest assured that we are avoiding at least the coarser expressions of greed, hatred and delusion, and that we will not have to face the obstacle of guilt, anxiety and restlessness that comes in the trail of regular moral transgressions. If we return to our earlier comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, and take virtue to be the roots, then the principles of right conduct become the soil in which the roots grow. Just as the soil contains the nutritive essences required for the tree to sprout and flourish, so do the precepts contain the nutriment of purity and virtue required for the growth of the spiritual life. The precepts embody the natural conduct of the arahat or perfected saint. For the arahat, his conduct flows outward as the spontaneous expression of his innate purity. By his very nature, all his deeds are flawless, free from blemish. He cannot follow any course of action motivated by desire, ill will, delusion or fear -- not through any forced conformity to rules, but by the very law of his being. The worldling, however, is not immune from the possibility of immoral conduct. To the contrary, because the unwholesome roots remain firmly planted in the makeup of his mind, he is constantly prone to the temptation to moral transgression. He is liable to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, drink, etc.; and in the absence of any sound moral code prohibiting such actions, he will often succumb to these liabilities. Hence the necessity of providing him with a set of ethical principles built upon the pillars of wisdom and compassion, by which he can regulate his actions and conform to the natural, spontaneous behaviour of the Liberated One. A precept is, therefore, from the Buddhist perspective much more than a prohibition imposed upon conduct from without. Each precept is a tangible expression of a corresponding attitude of mind, a principle which clothes in the form of concrete action a beam of the light of inward purity. The precepts render visible the invisible state of purification. They make it accessible to us by refracting it through the media of body and speech into specific rules of conduct we can apply as guides to action when we find ourselves in the diverse situations they are designed to cover. By bringing our conduct into harmony with the precepts, we can nourish the root of our spiritual endeavours, our virtue. And when virtue is made secure, the succeeding stages of the path unfold spontaneously through the law of the spiritual life, culminating at the crest in the perfection of knowledge and the serene azure of deliverance. As the Master says: For one who is virtuous, bhikkhus, endowed with virtue, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let freedom from remorse arise in me." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that freedom from remorse arises in one who is virtuous, endowed with virtue. For one who is free from remorse, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let gladness arise in me." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that gladness arises in one free from remorse. For one who is gladdened, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let rapture arise in me." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that rapture arises in one who is gladdened. For one filled with rapture, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let my body become tranquil." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that for one filled with rapture the body becomes tranquil. For one tranquil in body, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I experience bliss." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one tranquil in body experiences bliss. For one who is blissful, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let my mind become concentrated." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that for one who is blissful the mind becomes concentrated. For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I know and see things as they really are." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really are. For one knowing and seeing things as they really are, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I become disenchanted and dispassionate." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one knowing and seeing things as they really are becomes disenchanted and dispassionate. For one who has become disenchanted and dispassionate, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I realize the knowledge and vision of deliverance." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one who is disenchanted and dispassionate realizes the knowledge and vision of deliverance.... Thus, bhikkhus, one stage flows into the succeeding stage, one stage comes to fulfillment in the succeeding stage, for crossing over from the hither shore to the beyond. Anguttara Nikaya, 10:2 876 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Hi Robert, Alex, Sarah, Jonothan and friends ! I'm so sorry to answer all of you only on the weekends, but i am having a hard time on my work. I`m sure I'm the one who needs more information in this warm discussion list and so, I ought put my questions quickly and regularly. It is not easy have a friendly audience prone to answer my doubts with so great interest. Robert has written: > ... Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I > would like to examine our attitude to it and to the > Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our > attitude one that only wants to have "good" dhammas? > If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think > weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, > equanimous, compassionate, insightful person. > Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to > perfecting this Dhamma idol. It is very beautiful that you put things in a direct way. As time passes, we can understand each other more and more. As you put the things, it seems to me that there is another way to understand how to practice right effort. It will be a silly thing to force 'oneself ' to be good, cool, etc... But, as things happen without a controlling self, the way I understand why we must do some necessary corrections in the way our minds normally run themselves is that we have to put some effort in doing good, not doing the bad and purifying our minds, as the Buddha has taught us. For me, and for the most of the beginners, it is important to be careful on how to teach the 'equanimous side' of our practice. It does not come in the very beginning of the path - it comes through some conditions as you taught me. All come through conditions .... Although I not the one who knows many of the modern Dhamma teachers, it seems to me that some or even most of then, specially the westners ones, put too much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This is complete different, I am sure, the way you study the Dhamma. Robert, there is a sutta, ie. MN 2 - 'The Discourse on All the Cankers' - Sabbasavasutta, where the Buddha clearly said: "I will discourse to you monks, on the means of controlling all the cankers . I, monks, am speaking of the destruction of the cankers in one who knows, in one who sees, not in one who does not know , does not see" . Then, He teaches on the means how to abandon the cankers: 1. Sottapatimagga 2. Restraining: - virtue, mindfulness, knowledge (yoniso manasikara), energy, patience 3. Using 4. Enduring 5. Avoiding 6. Removing 7. Developing So, I don`t understand the way I think you do that those methods means "suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, equanimous, compassionate, insightful person, some undesirable parts of our ego and identifying with the goods ones" Am I missing anything ? It is not a matter of choosing the good 'against' the bad, but the wholesome 'against' unwholesome. It is not a battle inside our egos. Sila, and mental training for me is the art to create right conditions to panna appears. I don't see for example, the mind training aimed to create some blissful state, to give us powers - more stuff to polute our path. It is more a process to cleanse, remove - even for some moments, our impurities. Of course, as you post beautifully, if there is attachment to some of this, it will be wrong view ... There are two wonderful Bhikkhu Bodhi`s texts - one of the modern buddhist writers the most I like. They are " Nourishing The Roots - Essays on Buddhist Ethics" and "Merit and Spiritual Growth' that can give you a more subtle, rigorous and profound remarks on what I am trying to say. I will post them in two extra mails ... I really would like to listen your remarks on theses texts. Thank all of you, Metta Leonardo 877 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear Jon, thanks for your comments on the Vitakkasanthana sutta which were very informative. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > I have just had a chance to look at the > Vitakkasanthana Sutta. I agree that > it deals specifically with samatha bhavana. It is > directed to monks intent > on the higher thought, adhicitta. This is explained > in the commentary as > thought, based on vision, in respect of the eight > attainments namely the 4 > jhanas and the 4 succeeding planes of consciousness. > > As we know, the Buddha taught about all levels and > types of kusala. There > are suttas dealing with, in addition to vipassana > bhavana, dana (eg the Siha > sutta), sila (eg the Sigalovada Sutta) and of course > samatha bhavana (eg > this Vitakkasanthana Sutta). All kusala is a > support for the development of > vipassana. > > Did the Buddha stress samatha bhavana? He stressed > all kinds of kusala, at > one time or another, as appropriate to the audience > and the occasion. But > he also stressed on numerous occasions that only > vipassana leads to the > final eradication of kilesa and to enlightenment. > At moments of the other > levels of kusala we continue to accumulate the > conditions for rebirth. > > Did he stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of > vipassana bhavana, or > as being particularly conducive to vipassana > bhavana? I don’t find any such > teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections > of the text ends with the > words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled > states], his mind > subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, > concentrated". This is > clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no > mention in this sutta of > release/enlightenment. > > In terms of the other theme we have been discussing > in this thread, I also > do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier > approach to practice (ie > formal and non-formal). > > But perhaps you have a different interpretation? Do > let’s hear it! > > Jonothan > > 878 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 0:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions Dear Sarah and friends, >If either of you feel like giving a little more 'history' of your >study >and interest in the dhamma, we'd all be glad to hear. I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I studied meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada Buddhism, just like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my breath or observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read one of the posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could not open it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her book was out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now. The search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me to this Forum. And here I am. :-))) With Metta, AT 879 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear AT, Mn and friends Thank you for your comment and welcome Mn to our group. Mn please do not hesitate to give feed back you are not offending anybody:-))) We all are in the stage of learning, the only way we'd excel is to interacted with each others. I feel very fortunate to have met all of you. looking forward to see all in December. with metta, O 880 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions Dear AT I was born and raise in Thailand, my whole life I've been exposed to Buddhism teaching,but only few years ago that I had met A.Sujin. A friend of mine had invited her to visit the Bay Area and give the dhamma teaching. Since then I have been studying Praramatthadhamma till now we have 2 classes a week in Thai and 1 in English. Then I knew it rightaway that I've found the right teaching as supposed to my past study and practice which leave me unclear confused and craving for more attachments. I use to think that meditation will calm me, give me more power so I can concentrate and able to solve my problems. Well, now I know I was totally wrong.... And it's very interesting now I've found out...the more I learn the more I realize how much ignorance I have accumulated.. Witm metta, O 881 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 4:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Hi Alex, > I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana sessions as the time > working at the lab to slow down in order to practice living at the > current moment and seeing things as they are. So do I ... It really is now my experience. Metta, Leonardo 882 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 4:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Robert, > Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no > matter what? If so then we must remember that hatred > is another dhamma that arises and should be > investigated. > When hatred arises it is merely the asavas, the > tendencies showing themselves. Yes, but I have some problems in facing that. Sometimes it is easy to me, but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in the mud .... > The Bodhisatta developed the parami in so many > different ways. He tested and strove. Once he stole > something in order to see the result - he lost respect > and was almost executed because of it. He wanted to > see for himself the results of breaking sila. Are we > brave enough to do that ? I didn`t know that ! Is it possible to you give me the references ? Is it on Jatakas ? > We have to be prepared to > give up all our clingings even to sila or any practice > we might have in order to really see what is what and > so go beyond doubt. Very profound .... To prepare to give up sila or any practice we have to practice and understand sila in a proper way. > Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should > accept it or even encourage it ? Excelent remark. Sometimes I`ve tried to do 'invite' hatred to come to my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having some anguish, I do sit to meditate in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of time I tried the same strategy without sitting, I couldn`t have the same understanding. > If we investigate we see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as "HE > did that to ME" and "HE is bad". In other words one of > the co- conditions hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha) > that is lost in the world of concepts (of "he" and > "me" and "they") . If one can investigate in this way > one is learning much about the way things work; and > that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one > thinks in other ways such as "but in reality there is > no HE. There are only the five aggregates. Do you can see it ? How do you know you are 'doing' that ? How is the difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do not how to express better ! What are the differences among yoniso manasikara x sati x simple bare attention ? > And those aggregates that arose even one second ago have > completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the > air?" that there cannot be hatred at the exact same > moments. And then we might think again, forgetting > Dhamma, "but HE did that to ME" and see how again > hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very > simple example but perhaps it conditions some > reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if > we want to. There are so many other moments such as > seeing, and hearing. Other pamattha dhammas that > arise too, that can be understood. > Try to have hatred right now. Can you? Only if there > are conditions for it. Try to have fear now, can you? > Again it takes certain conditions. Yesterday Kumamoto > was rocked by two small earthquakes. There were > moments of fear and it was clear how thinking came in > so quickly, conditioned by attachment, and was a > condition of the fear. Very interesting. And > interesting to see how, a little more slowly, that > thinking about kamma and vipaka came in and the fear > ceased. (are earthquakes an advantage or disadvantage > of living in japan for a Buddhist?)This is > understanding at the level of thinking only but it is > still helpful. Sometimes i feel myself somehow stupid. I can`t see what you are trying to say. Thinking is a s process sometimes i can do, but go further I can`t. What are the conditions to move to an thinking way of understanding to 'see things as really are' ? > Sometimes we will have very painful experiences - it > is inevitable for everyone - they are opportunities > to learn. Montaigne (esaays 3.13) wrote something > about doctors "medicine always claims that experience > is the truest of its operations. Plato therefore was > right in saying that to become a true doctor, a man > must have experienced all the illnesses he hopes to > cure and all the accidents and circumstances he is to > diagnose..such a man I would trust." Of course > experience is no help unless it is accompanied with > wisdom. > Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm > feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems, > fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good > or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati ? Then there > are other namas arising. > Their characteristic can't be changed. This last sentence puzzled me. One of the aspects of the right effort is to prevent unwholesome thoughts that have already arisen ... So let me answer you about a question I have posted some days ago: How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to miccha ditti until we reach some more deep understanding, what should the correct approach ? - this is a koan ! Could you or someone else give me some clarifications ? > Isn't it all so uncontrollable. Just yesterday I wrote > a note to Sarah saying I might write a bit less. I guess you aren`t having the idea focusing on my remarks, aren`t you ? :-)) > Since then I wrote three rather long posts. Take the self > out of life and it all keeps going by itself by > conditions. We don't need to control anything; more > than that, we don't control anything; in truth there > is no self to control, never was. This belief in self > and control was/is all a cunning illusion conjured by > avijja the magician. > Robert Sorry - I am afraid I am disturbing you with so many questions ! Thank you very much. Metta, Leonardo 883 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Dear friends, > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this > group partly so that we could all have easy contact > since we live in many different countries. And also in > the hope of benefitting those who have the > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this > confusing mass we call life. Thank you, Sarah and Jon ! > Sarah and Jon might remember the first time we met, > coming up to 10 years ago. Ivan was there too, at Khun > Sujin's sister's house off Sukhumvit 71. I had met > Khun Sujin a few times before and was just coming to > grips with a subtle, but profound change in > perspective, Dhamma wise. Since my last meeting with > Khun Sujin I had thought up every counterargument I > could, and scoured the texts for points that seemed to > support my assertions that the path could be helped by > techniques. I was basically saying "yes, you are > right, the path is this way but also everybody else is > right in their approach." I sounded very reasonable, I > think . > Anyway Khun sujin was very firm on what is right and > what is not. And at the same time the others made very > pertinent comments. If you meet Ivan, Sarah and Jon in > the future you will apreciate their patience and > enormously intelligent way of getting to the heart of > the matter. They each explain things in different > ways, it was so helpful to meet with them. Gradually > things became clearer. I wrote many letters to Nina > and she answered so carefully, with many details. > Somehow all my old ideas just seemed to float away as > the study - in theory and in daily life-of paramattha > dhammas became uppermost. It has been a good decade. > Robert I think you are very fortunate in sharing the Dhamma all those years. I like very much the way you face to big task that is trying to find the correct and right path. We here in Brazil, have a very basic Buddhist Discussion Group and some Discussion lists in portuguese/spanish, but the discussions don`t run so profound the way you do ... So, I feel myself pleased to hear about your satisfaction and progress. Congratulations ... The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ? Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of it ! Mudita, Leonardo 884 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation ----- > Dear Leonardo & friends, > > I'd like to add a couple of points to your excellent questions and Robert's > very helpful comments. I hope I don't add confusion ! > > Of course no one can say developing right understanding is easy at any time > or that any object is easy to understand. If there is still some idea of > selection or some objects being easy, it shows the strong clinging and > probably wrong view of self at these times. > > Why are we so concerned about understanding dosa(aversion) and developing > techniques to avoid it? Of course, because it's so unpleasant and always > accompanied by unpleasant feeling. What about lobha? What about when the > feeling is so pleasant? Are we so conmcerned to understand its nature? If > there were no lobha there would be no dosa. Khun Sujin always stresses that > we have to be very courageous to develop understanding. Are we really > interested in a life with no kilesa (defilements)? No. That's why > understanding which knows the danger of even subtle moha and lobha can only > develop very slowly. > Like Robert says, it may seem there was dosa - unhappiness, depression, > worry, fear- for a long period of time such as an hour or a day or a month, > but actually it only lasts for a moment and then it's gone. Khun Sujin talks > about welcoming her kilesa because it's an opportunity for understanding to > know them when they appear. We are being tested all the time! It doesn't > mean they are good in any sense, but detachment and understanding have to > develop with regard to all realities. How impressive remarks, Sarah ! Are trying to show me my own lobha - gross or subtle in regard of the spiritual path ? Do you play chess ? So you won ... Thank very much .... > > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for > > > awareness to understand. > > > > Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of > >Satipathana training. But i'm > >asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges > >to a mind full of hatred of > >Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a > >conditioned reality it can be understood. > >When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not > >moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant > >Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when > >thinking thinks about other things. > >In the same way panna comes in between the moments > >with hatred and understands those moments as not self. But Sarah, sometimes there are a big mass of hatred and no understanding. Those moments are very dangerous. We can do something wrong ... > >Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really > >hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path > >and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma. The most beneficial thing I`ve grasped here in this group is the necessity to study more and more. I`ve thought myself almost addict to the Dhamma study. People usually said to me that theory is not the real dhamma. I`ve for myself many times realized that I have a profound interest in some 'dhamma mental game' and not the really dhamma. So, when I`ve discovered your site, and read some of the messages of this list - Oh ! I`ve realized - the way I`ve studying was not so wrong ... > The more understanding there is of Abhidhamma and anatta, the more it > becomes clear that whatever the Buddha is talking about, whether in the > suttas or the vinaya, he is talking about the development of understanding > of realities. His listeners and readers did not have to be reminded of this > in every sentence. In the suttas he is giving examples from daily life at > that time. Many of his listners had realised jhanas and so he is saying, > while doing this or that or in this case removing distracting thoughts, > develop understanding. Just like in the satipatthana sutta, he is saying, > while sitting or standing etc, develop understanding. > > Although I don't have this sutta at hand (Maybe you can quote from it or > remind me where it is), Sarah, try this one - there is another version with commentaries. I`ll post as soon as i find it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html I have utmost confidence from my knowledge of > abhidhamma that he is stressing the value of understanding while following > what would be a natural lifestyle for some. In the same way, if he talks > about a monk sitting cross-legged under a tree, this would be the natural > lifestyle for such a person at that time. It doesn't mean we should all copy > the lifestyle. People misunderstand because of the clinging to control and > self and doing rather than understanding paramattha dhammas. That's why > there has to be an understanding of the Abhidhamma in order to understand > the suttas. I starting the studying 'The Abhidhama in daily life' through a xerox copy a friend of mine has sent me. I`ve printed many articles of your site ... > I agree with Robert. It's not a question of changing ideas or deciding to > follow this way or that. Like you say, there can be right understanding on a > retreat and wrong understanding and attachment while reading and discussing > the Abhidhamma. It just depends on all the complex conditions at each > moment. > metta and thanks for all your kind appreciation and consideration, > Sarah Thank you Sarah Metta Leonardo 885 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear leonardo, I want to stress again how much I appreciate your questions and comments and especially your careful study of everyones comments. Your participation in this forum is highly beneficial for all of us. I guess my replies, which place so much stress on anatta and uncontrollability, must seem to minimize the importance of other aspects of the Buddha’s teaching, such as sila. A major reason for this is because of my own experience and particular predilictions for this aspect. If you go to Thailand and meet with other members of the foundation you will see that they stress sila much more. Speakers such as Khun Tanit talk mainly about the different refinements of sila and it is very beneficial to listen; one leaves the hall so aware of the dangers of sense desire; it can really condition “guarding the sense doors”. Khun sujin too often goes into the details of sila – it really is a most important subject. I see you have many works by bhikku bodhi (I had a brief correspondence with him last month as I sent him 150 copies of realities and concepts by sujin boriharnwanaket which he requested)so I will refer to a translation he made of the cariyapitaka (Net of views p 300) “esteeming virtue as the foundation of all achievements, as the soil for the origination of all the Buddha qualities, the beginning, footing, head and chief of all the dhammas issuing in buddhahood…”. Sila IS that important. However, I notice that some/many people misunderstand about sila. They work so hard at it but with an idea that “they” are keeping sila. I know people who live a life of austerity, celibacy and non-harming; much more than I even aspire to, and yet even after many years they cling to wrong practice. I like to point out these matters as I know silabata upadana – clinging to sila and ritual - is a great obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect of wrong view it is hard to give it up. It feels right because we change our life. Before learning about Dhamma we were maybe careless, led a reckless life, or had no real aim in life? Now we have rules to follow and special difficult practices to try and master. Our life has changed so much and we can see the difference it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We take these things as signposts that wisdom is also growing but this may not be so. The Visuddhimagga Xvii63 “his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four noble truths in particular prevents him from recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called the fruit of merit”. And the samyutta nikaya ii 82 “not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms the formation of merit, forms the formation of demirit, forms the formation of the imperturbable”. Sila and samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to pleasant result, but is it not better to have understanding as well. At every moment satipatthana is being correctly developed there is a level of sila that is higher than if sila is developed without wisdom. You write “the modern Dhamma teachers, it seems to me that some or even most of then, specially the westners ones, put too much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This is complete different, I am sure, the way you study the Dhamma.” Thank you for not including me with the “letting go” crowd. We can “let go” but who is letting go. This is simply SELF. I know you see that the Dhamma is far more profound than that. Thank you for citing the sabbavasutta. And surely here the Buddha was showing the many aspects that are or that assist the path. When we read don’t we tend to see in it those things that confirm our current thinking. On Bhikkhu Bodhis book “Nourishing the roots”. I think I emphasize different factors to Bodhi. He sees the value of sila- good. I see the danger of clinging to it. We need to be exposed to different interpretations. I would love Bhikkhu Bodhi to join in this discussion group- does anyone know him well enough to ask? He writes about cetana, volition. “This redirecting of volition is initiated by voluntarily undertaking the observance of principles of conduct belonging to a righteous order -- by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the good.” I would perhaps remind that cetana is part of sankharakkhandha, that it “is not-self because uncontrollable”Visuddhimagga xiv224. The next part of the sutta depends very much on the understanding or misunderstanding of the reader. For example the phrase . “For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I know and see things as they really are." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really are.” What type of concentration is this? It is the type of concentration that arises with sammaditthi and that takes a paramattha dhamma as object. And yes, exactly, no need for ‘deliberate volition”, it all happens by natural law. If we don't know the subtleties of the path we can so easily construe this passage to mean "get concentrated; become wise" but be unaware of the different types of concentration. The suttas I read 10 years past look different to me now. The Atthasalini (translated as the expositor p31)”the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view” . This tends to happen with those who only study sutta. Studying Abhidhamma has potential problems too- a wrong grasp can lead even to madness if “he makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions”. And if we don't study and develop at all then we will go down to apaya anyway. Nothing is easy! Robert --- 886 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Deat Jonothan, > Thanks for your reply to my post. I notice you have been very busy with > replies lately. Please don’t feel under any obligation in this regard. We > all contribute just as and when we can (which is usually not as often as we > would like to). It is good to have your very perceptive comments on the > list. It is me that has to thank you ! > ... the Buddha taught about jhana. But the question we need to consider is > whether he taught a ‘formal practice’ as something different from a ‘daily > life/non-formal’ practice. Or did he teach only one practice, the practice. Well said ! > As Sarah has pointed out in another post, it is easy to misconstrue the > significance of passages in the Suttas where the Buddha mentions monks > sitting cross-legged with mindfulness arisen. We tend to assume that this > is being held up as the way to practice. Perhaps this assumption reflects > our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to > involve. You put things in a clear way. As you`ve said: "this assumption reflects our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to involve". I think you`ve pointed a interesting aspect of my 'practice'. There are some strong confusion and sometimes silly propensity to take the outer aspect of the religion to the core message of the teaching. Yes, there are (is ?) many of people that have understood the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. Many of then, was not 'meditating' ... If all of this practice is wrong, how it comes to life ? Why for many centuries monks as well lay people put to much emphasis in meditation ? There are many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, meditation classes and as far as I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some explanation on this ? any references ? > But consider for a moment the many, many suttas where the Buddha explains > about the need to understand the realities appearing at the present moment > through the 6 doorways, but makes no reference to sitting crosslegged or to > anything that could be regarded as a method of practice. The subject matter > is pure vipassana bhavana, so why is there no mention of ‘practice’? The > answer of course is that the practice is the listening to, considering and > applying of that teaching, there and then (here and now), which is what his > audience was doing then and we should be doing now. And in other suttas the > importance of this listening, considering and applying is specifically > mentioned. I didn`t say anything against pondering and studying the Dhamma. I`m not convinced yet that meditation is a wrong Dhamma practice. Maybe this tool will be discarded if or when this new (for me) way of understanding the Dhamma mature in my mind. > So do the suttas support a formal and a non-formal practice, or just the > practice? We need to consider this as we study. For me, there are only the practice. Some people doesn`t need anymore the formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in my case I still need ... Thanks, Mettta, Leonardo 887 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation > > > Alex: I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana > sessions as the time > > working at the lab to slow down in order to > practice living at the > > current moment and seeing things as they are. > > So do I ... It really is now my experience. > > Metta, > Leonardo Dear leonardo and alex, the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase the functions of the elements give rise to continuity, collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions". No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this process which happens in all planes of existence. robert > > > 888 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Jonothan, > ... Did He stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of vipassana bhavana, or > as being particularly conducive to vipassana bhavana ? I don’t find any such > teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections of the text ends with the > words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled states], his mind > subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, concentrated". This is > clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no mention in this sutta of > release/enlightenment. I agree with you in part. I didn't mention this sutta for the sake of answer the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to vipassana. My intention was only to put in reference that samatha is not out of Dhamma-Vinaya. There are most authors that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be incomplete without Samma-samadhi and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > In terms of the other theme we have been discussing in this thread, I also > do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier approach to practice (ie > formal and non-formal). I think as you - there is only one practice - while sitting, walking, lying down, tying this mail, reading the suttas, etc ... The main point I was trying to put is: What kind/level of concentration is necessary to vipassana ? What you have to say about the quality/level/profundity of the concentration that supports and conditions your Dhamma understanding ? What Khun Sujin teachs about this ? Thank you once more, Metta Leonardo 889 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 7:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation Dear Robert, > Dear leonardo and alex, > the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third > book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes > all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass > away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of > an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion > times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry > takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration > is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase > the functions of the elements give rise to continuity, > collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but > the elements have not the time or span of duration to > carry out such functions". > No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this > process which happens in all planes of existence. > robert For me 'slow down' means that when we gain some sort of concentration the great speed of the thinking, remembering processes seems to spring with bigger intervals that in the first part of the sitting section. Of course, there are billions of mind and rupa events run with great continuity, but at least, the grossest ones, it seems to me that as tje more I practice it is easiest to grasp them moment by moment. If my interpretation is not correct, what are the reasons for that ? Thanks, leonardo 890 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:25pm Subject: Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas Dear friends, How do we distinguish the 2 concepts of fate and uncontrolable dhammas? Thank you for your help. With Metta, AT 891 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Re: slow down? meditation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > > > > Alex: I consider the retreats and the daily > bhavana > > sessions as the time > > > working at the lab to slow down in order to > > practice living at the > > > current moment and seeing things as they are. > > > > So do I ... It really is now my experience. > > > > Metta, > > Leonardo > > Dear leonardo and alex, > the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third > book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes > all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass > away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of > an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion > times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry > takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration > is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase > the functions of the elements give rise to continuity, > collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but > the elements have not the time or span of duration to > carry out such functions". > No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this > process which happens in all planes of existence. > robert Dear Robert and friends, During the daily life, many many things occur in the mind. I think that by concentrating on one thing when sitting with my eyes closed, such as only the breath, at least the number of dhammas instead of going through the 6 doors, now, is going to 5 doors only. Ideally, we may practice Sati 24 hours a day in daily life. Later, when we grow stronger in concentration, we may not need to go to the "laboratory" any more. With Metta, AT 892 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:54pm Subject: Re: good intentions --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear AT > I was born and raise in Thailand, my whole life I've been > exposed to Buddhism teaching,but only few years ago > that I had met A.Sujin. A friend of mine had invited her to > visit the Bay Area and give the dhamma teaching. > > Since then I have been studying Praramatthadhamma till now > we have 2 classes a week in Thai and 1 in English. > Then I knew it rightaway that I've found the right teaching > as supposed to my past study and practice which leave me unclear > confused and craving for more attachments. > I use to think that meditation will calm me, give me more power > so I can concentrate and able to solve my problems. > Well, now I know I was totally wrong.... > And it's very interesting now I've found out...the more I learn the more > I realize how much ignorance I have accumulated.. > Witm metta, > O Dear O and friends, When sitting for meditation, I also note that dhammas occur at the rupa and nama cannot be controlled. Sometimes, we have a calm sitting, and quite often, we don't. Our function is only to observe and to accept them as they are. Truly, everything is anatta. After the meditation period, I'm back to daily life. Again, I see that there's nothing controllable. I feel that by meditating and studying the materials I have on hand, it will help me tremendously to realize anicca, dukkha, and anatta more and more clearly. Gradually, perhaps, I don't need to sit for meditation any more. With Metta, AT 893 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:04am Subject: the highlight of my day! Dear Leonardo, It's great when someone comes along like yourself who can really appreciate and benefit from this list....we have certainly benefited enormously ourselves. The highlight of my day is checking out the list in the evening after I finish work! Robert and Amara also helped us a lot in getting the group started and as you can see, continue to make great contributions... Thank you for taking part and for your great support and nice words....We all appreciate your keen interest and study. It'll take me a little time to catch up with your wonderful weekend posts! Sarah > > > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this > > group partly so that we could all have easy contact > > since we live in many different countries. And also in > > the hope of benefitting those who have the > > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep > > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than > > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this > > confusing mass we call life. > > Thank you, Sarah and Jon ! > > The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ? > >Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of >it ! > >Mudita, >Leonardo > 894 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas How do we distinguish the 2 concepts of fate and > uncontrolable > dhammas? Dear Alex, Good question. Someone wrote to me a while back who feels that no control is a dangerous idea. They want to stress control and volitional intention which is what they believe that Buddha really taught and they feel uncontrollabilty to be a pernicious belief leading to apathy. "I have a choice whether to get angry in the present moment." the writer said. I replied "Yes, the processes of cittas during anger are new kamma. However, they are also conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24 paccaya (conditions). Some of which are past and some present. But even the present ones do not simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even the cittas that are arising at this moment are conditioned by previous cittas as well as well as by other conditions that are present at the same time. This is not the place to go into details but it is well worth studying the Patthana. It gives us a glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom of the Buddha." They further wrote that "we are not just helpless automata acting out our old kamma - that is absurd. I hope the above helps overcome the despair that comes from the belief that we are a slave to our conditioning." I said "This sounds like the debates that western Philosophy used to have (and still does) about Free-will versus Determinism. The Buddha's analysis of the world is neither, it is the middle path. Thus the statement about "we being helpless automata acting out our old kamma" misses the point. There is no "we" to be anything. And kamma is not the only condition. Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the deep teachings on anatta, are a condition for understanding. This understanding leads to energy: energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the study and practice of vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that will gladly keep developing understanding moment after moment, life after life, aeon after aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if understanding grows then there will be detachment from the idea of self and of control. Then there is no more despair about the path - because "I" have been taken out of the equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that we want to be happy, get enlightened , whatever, is no more.Then, as the Vissudhimagga says, there is a path but no one on the path." Robert 895 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 11:28pm Subject: A new page Dear all, Just to say we've added another page in 'A Few Words', called 'Intricacy of Citta' to our website , any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Amara PS. It's great to read all your interesting postings! 896 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 1:20am Subject: Re: Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the > deep teachings on anatta, > are a condition for understanding. This understanding > leads to energy: > energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the > study and practice of > vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that > will gladly keep > developing understanding moment after moment, life > after life, aeon after > aeon, no matter how long it takes. Wonderful. Sadhu. >And if > understanding grows then there > will be detachment from the idea of self and of > control. Then there is no > more despair about the path - because "I" have been > taken out of the > equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that > we want to be happy, > get enlightened , whatever, is no more.Then, as the > Vissudhimagga says, > there is a path but no one on the path." May we walk on the Path with joy and detachment. With Metta, Alex 897 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 2:04am Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear --- "Leonardo Neves" wrote: > How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to > put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to > miccha ditti until we reach some more deep understanding, what should the correct > approach ? - this is a koan ! Dear Leonardo and friends, Since we have not reached the level of an arahant yet, we all still have some miccha ditthi. The way to eradicate miccha ditthi is to learn in order to develop panna. There are different ways to develop panna: 1. By reading: For reading, I'm reading the Abhidhamma and the Sutta. I also read others' writing such as from various bhikkhus, Khun Sujin, Nina VG, Robert, Sarah, Amara, O, you,... 2. By listening from others: For listening to dhamma talks, discussing with others,... 3. By personal experience: From observing and seeing that everything happens in my daily life is uncontrollable. The most difficult concept in Buddhism is anatta. If we see anatta, we're in good shape. Once the concept of anatta is grasped, we can see dukkha and anicca. From understanding dukkha, we understand the Four Noble Truths, ... Even with the knowledge that everything happens because of conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to plant some seeds in the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because whatever I plant and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, and will give me other conditions to move on the Path. And, Leonardo, I'm sure that you are doing exactly what I'm doing now. :-))) Enjoy the moment with sati like what you have been doing all along. With Metta, Alex 898 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 5:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonard, Robert, I admired both of your posts. I'd like to add this tool for dealing with the 2nd hindrance as it arises, from the Twofold Thought Discourse. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find it on the internet, so can't send a link. Hope you don't mind my posting the whole excerpt: "This thought of sense pleasure has arisen in me, but it conduces to self-hurt and it conduces to the hurt of others and it conduces to the hurt of both, it is destructive of intuitive wisdom, associated with distress, not conducive to nibbana. But while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to self-hurt', it subsided; and while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to the hurt of others', it subsided; and while I was reflecting, 'It is destructive of intuitive wisdom, it is associated with distress, it is not conducive to nibbana', it subsided. So I, monks, kept on getting rid of the thought of sense-pleasures as it constantly arose, I kept on driving it out, I kept on making an end of it. While I, monks, was faring on thus, diligent, ardent, self-resolute, thought of malevolence arose...thought of harming arose...and I comprehended thus: 'This thought of malevolence...of harming has arisen in me, but it conduces to self-hurt...not conducive to nibbana.' But while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to self-hurt...while I was reflecting, 'It is...not conducive to nibbana', it subsided. So I, monks, kept on getting rid of the thought of harming as it constantly arose, I kept on driving it out, I kept on making an end of it." Discourse on the Twofold Thought (Dvedhaavitakkasutta) Pali Text Society Translated by I.B. Horner --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Hi Robert, Alex, Sarah, Jonothan and friends ! > > I'm so sorry to answer all of you only on > the weekends, but i am having a > hard time on my work. > > I`m sure I'm the one who needs more > information in this warm discussion list > and so, I ought put my questions quickly and > regularly. > It is not easy have a friendly audience > prone to answer my doubts with so > great interest. > > Robert has written: > > > ... Rather than repeat what the texts say about > hatred I > > would like to examine our attitude to it and to > the > > Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our > > attitude one that only wants to have "good" > dhammas? > > If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think > > weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the > cool, > > equanimous, compassionate, insightful person. > > Especially the ones we think might slow our > journey to > > perfecting this Dhamma idol. > > It is very beautiful that you put things in > a direct way. As time passes, we > can understand each other more and more. > > As you put the things, it seems to me that > there is another way to understand > how to practice right effort. It will be a silly > thing to force 'oneself ' to be > good, cool, etc... But, as things happen without a > controlling self, the way I > understand why we must do some necessary corrections > in the way our minds normally > run themselves is that we have to put some effort in > doing good, not doing the bad > and purifying our minds, as the Buddha has taught > us. For me, and for the most of the > beginners, it is important to be careful on how to > teach the 'equanimous side' of our > practice. It does not come in the very beginning of > the path - it comes through some > conditions as you taught me. All come through > conditions .... > Although I not the one who knows many of > the modern Dhamma teachers, it > seems to me that some or even most of then, > specially the westners ones, put too > much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This > is complete different, I am sure, > the way you study the Dhamma. > Robert, there is a sutta, ie. MN 2 - 'The > Discourse on All the Cankers' - > Sabbasavasutta, where the Buddha clearly said: "I > will discourse to you monks, on the > means of controlling all the cankers . I, monks, am > speaking of the destruction of > the cankers in one who knows, in one who sees, not > in one who does not know , does > not see" . > > Then, He teaches on the means how to abandon the > cankers: > > 1. Sottapatimagga > 2. Restraining: - virtue, mindfulness, knowledge > (yoniso manasikara), energy, > patience > 3. Using > 4. Enduring > 5. Avoiding > 6. Removing > 7. Developing > > So, I don`t understand the way I think you do > that those methods means > "suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of > the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, > equanimous, compassionate, insightful person, some > undesirable parts of our ego and > identifying with the goods ones" Am I missing > anything ? > It is not a matter of choosing the good > 'against' the bad, but the wholesome > 'against' unwholesome. It is not a battle inside our > egos. Sila, and mental training > for me is the art to create right conditions to > panna appears. I don't see for > example, the mind training aimed to create some > blissful state, to give us powers - > more stuff to polute our path. It is more a process > to cleanse, remove - even for > some moments, our impurities. Of course, as you post > beautifully, if there is > attachment to some of this, it will be wrong view > ... > There are two wonderful Bhikkhu Bodhi`s > texts - one of the modern buddhist > writers the most I like. They are " Nourishing The > Roots - Essays on Buddhist Ethics" > and "Merit and Spiritual Growth' > that can give you a more subtle, rigorous and > profound remarks on what I am trying to > say. > > I will post them in two extra mails ... > > I really would like to listen your remarks > on theses texts. > > > Thank all of you, > Metta > Leonardo > > > > > 899 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas Tremendously important point (I think!), Robert. Thanks for the reminder. Mike wrote: "...even the present [cittas] do not simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to stop them or change them." 900 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds O, AT, Sarah, et al., Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm grateful for the privelege of taking part in your discussions. I look forward to reading more! Your Friend, Mike --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear AT, Mn and friends > Thank you for your comment and welcome Mn to > our group. Mn please do not hesitate to give feed > back > you are not offending anybody:-))) > > We all are in the stage of learning, the only way > we'd excel is to interacted > with each others. I feel very fortunate to have met > all of you. > looking forward to see all in December. > with metta, > O > 901 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions Dear Sarah, Thanks again for the welcome. Not much to tell about me...zen student for about ten years, theravada for about 12, anagarika ordination at Wat Pah Nanachat for six months (a long time ago!), 3 month intensive meditation retreat at Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha. Plan to return to WPN for ordination next rains. At present, and thanks in part to correspondence with Robert, investigation of abhidhamma is of compelling interest--hence my interest in your splendid group. You might say that I bounced from over-emphasis on samatha to overemphasis on satipatthana, and am now cultivating overemphasis on dhammavicaya. Ha! Whattaya gonna do? Just sankhara, I guess... Look forward to talking with all of you... mn --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear mn and Alex, > > I'm also very glad to hear your conributions on the > list and I'm glad you've > found us. Thankyou Alex for the brief details. If > either of you feel like > giving a little more 'history' of your study and > interest in the dhamma, > we'd all be glad to hear. > > mn, as Robert said, pls don't think twice about > replying out of context...we > all do it and it's part of the fun of the list > discussion. We're all quite > direct and often disagree on points. This is often > how we learn. We also > appreciate your good intentions! I'll comment more > on the points later. > > Keep posting! > > Sarah > > > > >Dear O and AT, > > > >No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of > >context... > > > >mn > > 902 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:46am Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds Dear Alex, (You do go by 'Alex'?) Nice to meet you. I feel quite lucky to've found this list too (thanks yet again to Robert). Glad you enjoyed the discourse. Not having a very big brain myself, I really appreciate the pithy ones (and excerpts from them)--especially those that can be used as touchstones for further investigation. Looking forward to future correspondence... Mike --- A T wrote: > > > > >From: "m. nease" > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good > Seeds > >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:14:22 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Dear O and AT, > > Dear MN and dhamma friends, > > Welcome to the group, MN. :-))) I'm new in the > group myself. Therefore, > I'd like to introduce myself. I've been studying > Buddhism for a few years. > I feel very fortunate to find out about this > DhammaStudyGroup Forum. By the > way, my true name is Alexandra Tran, but I often > sign my name on the Net as > Alex, Alex Tran or AT. > > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html > > MN, thank you for posting the website of this > wonderful Sutta. I felt > very inspired after finishing reading it. > > With Metta, > Alex Tran > 903 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds Dear Mn Thanks for your reply, please keep your comment posting it's so important that we communicate:-)) I've learn so much from Robert, Sarah, AT and amara. This is just like classes that we are taking every week. It's helping me improve my typing and my English tremendously.... most important is dhamma that you all have share.... with Appreciation, O 904 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 10:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions Dear mn, > > You might say that I bounced from over-emphasis on > samatha to overemphasis on satipatthana, and am now > cultivating overemphasis on dhammavicaya. Ha! > Whattaya gonna do? Just sankhara, I guess... > Good to see your light heart. Buddhism can be a serious business sometimes; the more humour(especially of the SELF-deprecating kind) the better. Robert 905 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 7:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Alex, An excellent post You replied to leonardo's question > > "How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha > ditthi ?" > Dear Leonardo and friends, > > Since we have not reached the level of an arahant > yet, we all > still have some miccha ditthi. Just a minor correction here. Even the sotapanna has eliminated all miccha-ditthi; they still have mana, conceit until arahat. The way to eradicate > miccha ditthi is > to learn in order to develop panna. > > There are different ways to develop panna: > > 1. By reading: For reading, I'm reading the > Abhidhamma and the > Sutta. I also read others' writing such as from > various bhikkhus, > Khun Sujin, Nina VG, Robert, Sarah, Amara, O, > you,... > 2. By listening from others: For listening to > dhamma talks, > discussing with others,... Yes we have to have this input of the Dhamma and discussing fine points with the right people helps us to see our clingings. > > 3. By personal experience: From observing and > seeing that > everything happens in my daily life is > uncontrollable. The most > difficult concept in Buddhism is anatta. If we see > anatta, we're in > good shape. Yes, getting to understand anatta more and more is so important. You are really quick to understand this matter. You are in "good shape". Keep it up. Anomodana (I respect your wholesomeness) . Sometimes anatta doesn't seem so apparent. That is fine too; understanding goes up and down; there are other paramis also we can be developing. Even when it is not so clear if we can remember that understanding anatta is primary we have a great protection against dangers such as wrong view and wrong practice. It is so easy to have wrong effort. I think our best efforts are made by learning to understand what the buddha really taught and what the path is and isn't. Robert 906 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 9:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Leonardo, Good questions in these 2 posts of yours! Very important areas. I hope you don't mind if I get back to you later in the week. Jonothan --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Jonothan, > > > > ... Did He stress samatha bhavana as an integral > part of vipassana bhavana, or > > as being particularly conducive to vipassana > bhavana ? I don’t find any such > > teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections > of the text ends with the > > words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled > states], his mind > > subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, > concentrated". This is > > clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no > mention in this sutta of > > release/enlightenment. > > I agree with you in part. I didn't mention > this sutta for the sake of answer > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > vipassana. My intention was only to > put in reference that samatha is not out of > Dhamma-Vinaya. There are most authors > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > incomplete without Samma-samadhi and > Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > > > In terms of the other theme we have been > discussing in this thread, I also > > do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier > approach to practice (ie > > formal and non-formal). > > I think as you - there is only one practice > - while sitting, walking, lying > down, tying this mail, reading the suttas, etc ... > The main point I was trying to put > is: What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > vipassana ? What you have to > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > concentration that supports and > conditions your Dhamma understanding ? What Khun > Sujin teachs about this ? > > Thank you once more, > > Metta > Leonardo > 908 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 7:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear AT how long have been studying dhamma? your answer to Leonard was the right target...excellent:-)) I was reading the reply from Robert this morning about micha dhitti , what an excellent explanation... until we develop "samma dhitti" forget about the right path. because it is the very first right (of the 8 fold path) before the rest of the 7 can be follow ... any feed back from you Robert and others would be appreciated. anumodana, O 909 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Re: developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Since we have not reached the level of an arahant > > yet, we all > > still have some miccha ditthi. > > Just a minor correction here. Even the sotapanna has > eliminated all miccha-ditthi; they still have mana, > conceit until arahat. Dear Robert, Thank you for reminding me. Yes, the Sotapana has eradicated all miccha ditthi. When we eliminate the 4 cittas of lobha associated with ditthi (lobha cittas 1, 2, 5, and 6) and the first delusion with doubt, we reach the level of Sotapana. With Metta, Alex 910 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 1:02am Subject: Samma Ditthi Dear O, I'm very humble reading your post because I'm really a beginner. Last year, I studied Abhidhamma for the first time for around one month and a half, and this year, I review what I learned last year. Other than that, I study the Suttas, and others' writings. I also go to the Temple to listen to Dhamma talks. O, everyone is walking on the Path with his/her own burden of miccha ditthi. Gradually, by studying and by his/her own experience, the bag gets lighter and lighter. As Robert, Sarah or Amara wrote in a post, the process is gradual. None of us can suddenly realize anatta. By the time we reach Sotapana, for sure, we don't have any more wrong views. That should be a wonderful state of mind, because by then, there is no doubts, no questions... :-))) I truly believe that we are on the right Path. We all need to keep on working, and one of these days, we'll be there. With Metta, AT 911 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma Ditthi Dear AT Thank you so much for your reply. I'm totally agree with you that everyone is walking toward the right path, I point was the"micha dhitti" that is the ignorance that we all have to work on, and it's the most difficult subject to be eradicated:-)) one can only hope that someday when our panna is progressing,the wrong view can be reduce little by little. and again our job is to study and panna will do it's own job thanks again for your prompt and kindly feed back. anomudana, O 912 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 7:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Leonardo, Regarding the relationship of sila and wisdom I saw something by Nina VG which might be of interest. She writes in the "Perfections leading to enlightenment": her wonderful book on the parami "Khun sujin reminded us that when there is the development of satipatthana there is no attachement to the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of : "i should have more dana, I should have more sila, I should have more calm"....If there is no development of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous situation. there may be conditons for kusala citta which observes sila, perhaps for a very long time, but who knows his accumulations of akusala?.....We may think we " I can observe the precepts" and delude ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but not notice the countless moments of akusal citta." 913 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 8:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Mn > Thanks for your reply, please keep your comment > posting it's so important that we communicate:-)) I think so too, O, thanks for your encouragement... > I've learn so much from Robert, Sarah, AT and amara. > This is just like classes that we are taking every > week. ...yes, just like that, classes I've needed for a long time... > It's helping me improve my typing and my English > tremendously.... > most important is dhamma that you all have share.... ...I'm so glad! And thank you for sharing too... mn 914 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonardo, I wrote "we must remember that > hatred > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > investigated." > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some problems in facing > that. Sometimes it is easy to me, > but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in > the mud ...." This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage and search for ways other than the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas. The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is the real one, can never make our life more difficult. When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it seemed that I was better off before I learnt about Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed me I was on the wrong path. I really think I was so fortunate that things went that way. It could have been worse – I might have been a real success at the techniques I was trying- and then, would I have been able to give them up? It is more difficult to see the wrong path if it is associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant feeling; one is so happy about their "progress". Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard, when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They can support panna and then you may be able to see that akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be understood. This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.) If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we should know that this is only suppression . Even if we succeed we have missed the chance to really understand them. The other ways- even correct development of samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 “The perfect ones behave like lions. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause.” There are so many different ways to avoid understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all during all these activities there are only namas and rupas arising – they can be understood at those moments too). In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the Bodhisatta thought “why do I always dwell expecting fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread while keeping the same posture that I am in when it comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had subdued that fear and dread…While I lay down that fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread” Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not “my anger, my hate”. Satipatthana protects – it shows us the difference between concept and reality. It is because we take concepts such as people for real things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha dhamma. The path is simple and direct – the understanding of whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden attachment to self that thinks “I am understanding, this is my understanding’: easy not to see this. And hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to understand. Robert > 915 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training Dear Leonardo, You wrote "Sila, and mental training > for me is the art to create right conditions to > panna appears. ......... It is more a process > to cleanse, remove - even for > some moments, our impurities." There are different ways of purification. The highest level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya. Panna cleanses -not us. There are other ways but they cannot get to the anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm, full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed. With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that or do we want to be something? Robert 916 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 0:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Leonardo > I think you’ve pointed an interesting > aspect of my 'practice'. There is > some strong confusion and sometimes silly propensity > to take the outer aspect of the > religion to the core message of the teaching. I hope I have caught your meaning correctly. There can be a tendency to take outer appearances (eg good sila, calm demeanour, fewness of wishes etc) as the goal, or at least as indicators of progress along the way. It is so easy to do, because of accumulated tendencies (wrong view?). But if we know such moments for what they are, then we are developing the conditions for fewer such moments in the future. > Yes, there are many people > that have understood the Dhamma > spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. > Many of them were not 'meditating'... > If all of this practice is wrong, how it > comes to life? Why for many > centuries monks as well lay people put too much > emphasis in meditation? There are > many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, > meditation classes and as far as > I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some > explanation on this? Any references? Just to clarify. I have not said that the things you have mentioned are necessarily indicative of wrong view. We cannot know the views of others unless we have an opportunity to discuss those views with them. But to answer your question, there has always been and will always be wrong practice, conditioned by wrong view, among the followers of Buddhism. (Even at the time of the Buddha this was so.) We cannot take generally accepted views as being necessarily correct. We need to check for ourselves whether what others do or say is in accordance with the teachings as found in the Tripitaka. > I’m not > convinced yet that meditation is a wrong Dhamma > practice. Maybe this tool will be > discarded if or when this new (for me) way of > understanding the Dhamma mature in my > mind. The term ‘meditation’ means different things to different people, and I don’t really know what it means for you. For most people it means a technique of choosing to focus on a selected object(s) at a selected time and place. As far as satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is concerned, such a practice would not find support in the suttas. This is because the suttas dealing with vipassana bhavana generally refer to all realities/paramattha dhammas without distinction and without reference to a special time or place. The position as regards samatha bhavana is somewhat different. For example, in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta which we were looking at recently I was struck by the passage: “If there arise evil unskilled thoughts associated with desire, aversion and confusion, that monk should attend, instead of to that characteristic, to another characteristic which is associated with what is skilled”. Such a passage would not be found in relation to satipatthana, because all paramattha dhammas are suitable objects for sati, including our defilements and the everyday rupas. It is helpful to try to understand clearly the differences between the 2 kinds of bhavana. > For me, there is only the practice. > Some people don’t need anymore the > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in > my case I still need ... If it is the correct practice, we will never reach a stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you mean that although your practice will remain the same, you hope to be able to carry it through into your daily life, so that in that sense there would no longer be a formal practice. This suggests the idea of changing one’s life from what it is now to what we think it should be. This could be just another instance of ‘taking the outer aspect of the religion to the core message of the teaching’! Jonothan 917 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 1:41pm Subject: Wrong or imitation? Dear Group, We often talk about miccha samadhi, wrong concentration, and wrong effort. The word wrong has a very strong meaning in English and might mislead us about these factors. Wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, in its refined states can be calm and peaceful. It is much easier to have these refined types of lobha than it is to have the moments of true samadhi associated with panna; and consequently these states can be made to arise again and again for quite long periods (all assisted by miccha viraya, wrong effort). They can seem far more impressive than the more intermitant right concentration. We might have an idea of wrong concentration as being some very bad sort of state- but it can be far more subtle than that. The refined type can be very nice. The point I want to make is perhaps rather than thinking of it as wrong concentration and wrong effort it might be better to think of imitation right concentration and imitation right effort. Any comments? Robert 918 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 2:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear ---Dear Leonardo, I think it was in the Jatakas where the Bodhisatta deliberately stole. I think he was the advisor to a king and highly respected. He wanted to see whether people respected his wisdom more than sila. He found out soon enough after they were dragging him to the execution pit. He told his reasons and was released - If I see it sometime I will give the reference. > > > Sometimes I`ve tried to > do 'invite' hatred to come to > my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having > some anguish, I do sit to meditate > in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of > time I tried the same strategy > without sitting, I couldn`t have the same > understanding. Refer to my posting today under this heading- especially the section where the bodhisatta overcame fear and dread in whatever posture he was in. > How is the > difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do > not how to express better ! > What are the differences among yoniso > manasikara x sati x simple bare > attention ? > Good questions!! This is dhammavicaya, investigation of Dhamma. At this level no one can tell us exactly the difference. But the difference becomes clearer as panna and sati progress. Sati of satipatthana only arises in conjunction with a level of panna. Simple bare attention can easily be a subtle type of akusala- it is still "us" who is having bare attention. > > What are > the conditions to move to an thinking way of > understanding to 'see things as really > are' ? There are many levels of understanding; the foundation of them all is correct intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teaching. For that we need careful and wide study and repeated consideration. And as Alex noted discussing and questioning about difficult points with the right people is also needed. There is no other way. This is just the beginning, but if it is done properly it is right. It is far better than racing along following the wrong path. > I said "No sati ? Then > there > > are other namas arising. > Their characteristic can't be changed." > > You wrote "This last sentence puzzled me. " Even when we experience something directly it has gone already, forever, never to arise again. How can we change something that has already disappeared. Why do we worry about it? It is because of clinging. > > How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha > ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to > put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as > you said, it is very much due to > miccha ditti until we reach some more deep > understanding, what should the correct > approach ? - this is a koan ! See the comments Alex made and also where I said the best efforts are those when we try and understand what it was that he Buddha really taught and what the path is and is not. Robert > > 919 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Wrong or imitation? Dear Robert I've been impressed and admiring about your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma. how long have been studying?:-)) It's so nice to have such an enthusiastic group.. Your question" wrong or imitation" is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't right yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma. am I being too direct or too strong? I have to admitted that English is my third language should you have any suggestion or comment? please keep it coming. anomodana, O 920 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:12am Subject: 4 Types of Individual Dear Mike, Thankyou for the brief details about your background and interest in dhamma. One great thing about this list is that we've all followed different teachers in the past and come from different countries, but here we are discussing the dhamma together. I wanted to reply to this earlier message (below) of yours before, but sometimes it's difficult to find time to keep up with all the great messages coming in! Thankyou for making access to the Raga-vinaya Sutta so quick and easy. I also checked a couple of other translations. In the BPS one, the translator uses 'live for' rather than 'practice' and the PTS translation gives 'bent on'. None say what the Pali is..someone may know. Anyway that is of academic interest. What I understand by the 4th Individual is that this is someone who develops kusala (wholesomeoness) and encourages others. Hopefully, that's what we're doing here! As O points out, if one does good deeds with expectation or for some result in future, there may not be much kusala involved at all. In these cases one is in danger of being the 3rd Individual..the one that neither develops kusala nor encourages others to do so. In other words when we speak in conventional terms about doing wholesome deeds for our own benefit, the emphasis is still on kusala cetana (good intention) whether at the level of dana, sila or bhavana. At times of expectation or wishing for good results, there is lobha and moha and often wrong view, so it is not for anyone's benefit. As we know, the highest kusala, for everyone's benefit, is developing understanding at this moment. At the moment of understanding there is no other being or self! I hope this is helpful. Sarah > >Dear O, > >I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we >do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of >others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html > >Nice to meet you all! > >mn > >--- "Sarah Procter Abbott" > wrote: > O wrote: > > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not > > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. > > 921 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 8:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation dear Leornardo, You wrote "For me 'slow down' means that when we gain > some sort of concentration the > great speed of the thinking, remembering processes > seems to spring with bigger > intervals that in the first part of the sitting > section. Of course, there are > billions of mind and rupa events run with great > continuity, but at least, the > grossest ones, it seems to me that as tje more I > practice it is easiest to grasp them > moment by moment. > If my interpretation is not correct, what are > the reasons for that ?" Your questions are great leonardo. I don't know if my replies do them justice. Vipassana is sometimes taught as a simple technique that a child could follow. However Dhamma is deep: The majhima nikaya ii 72 "you ought to be at a loss vaccha, you ought to be bewildered. For vaccha this Dhamma is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic, subtle, intelligible to the wise; but it's hard for you who are under another view, another allegiance, another objective, of a different observance, and under a different teacher" We might think this does not apply to us because we are already Buddhists. But to the extent that we have misunderstandings about the path then we are still under the sway of "another view, another allegiance, of a diferent observance, and under a different teacher" A sotapanna no longer misinterprets and he is not of another view. When sitting and deliberately concentrating on certain objects, say rupas in the body, it is certain that these objects will become more noticeable. At these times there is less thinking of the normal affairs of daily life. The eyes are closed so there is no seeing consciousness and the mind proceses following that. If it is a quiet place there are less ear door processes too. This all contributes to concentration. However, is it right concentration of the eightfold path? Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we might not realize this. Thus it would not be surprising if lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we have to find out about this matter.I am not saying that there is never any sati but is there still some idea that "I" made sati arise by "my" efforts? Sati may arise but maybe very little panna if we are doing this type of practice. It all depends on understanding. In the atthasalini it says, talking about "the object with which consciousness is concerned".:"there is no such order as its coming into being in any one existence first with a visible object, afterwards with sound as object...And it was said in order to show that it can arise with all objects and that there is neither order in them nor in absence of order, any uniformity in respect of the specific sensations, that he said , 'whatever be the object' consciousness arises not only with a certain say visible object , but in reality with any one of them as object . It does not attend first to visible object and then to sound. It arises with any one of the objects whatsoever..." When we try to focus on certain objects we will no doubt succeed - but are we sure it was with sati and not refined lobha? Dhamma is deep, it is far from being the straightforward matter that make it out to be. If you look through the Anguttara nikaya and samyutta nikaya you will see so many suttas where the Buddha explained the six sense doors (as amara noted earlier) with seeing listed first. Seeing and visible object must be understood: our lives are so conditioned by this doorway. Acharn Sujin teaches so often about seeing/visible onject and I find that very helpful. It disapoints me that so many other teachers seem to think the seeing is not something that should be understood - or they minimize it as an object for understanding. Whatever appears should be known - how can we not be interested in seeing and visible object? Robert 922 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Wrong or imitation? Dear Robert I've been impressed and admiring about your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma. how long have been studying?:-)) I first met Khun Sujin almost 10 years ago. I was on a real quest - meeting with different teachers, studying every text I could find. I had figured out before then that anatta was the key. (getting to that stage took a long time and many tears) I studied under one teacher for a few years in Thailand and he had excellent knowledge of abhidhamma and could really explain anattta well. There was just a couple of very minor points that i haddoubts about. Anyway by way of writing to Nina I met khun sujin and she answered my questions perfectly. And she told me things that no other teacher could. I feel only accumulations from the past could have led to me to one of such wisdom as khun Sujin. It's so nice to have such an enthusiastic group.. We are all glad you joined O. imitation in this case meant counterfeit- like counterfeit money, it looks the same, almost, it feels the same, almost, but it isn;t the real deal. refined wrong concentration is like that. Robert "our question" wrong or imitation" is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't right yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma. , --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > We often talk about miccha samadhi, wrong > concentration, and wrong effort. The word wrong has > a > very strong meaning in English and might mislead us > about these factors. > Wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, in its refined > states can be calm and peaceful. It is much easier > to > have these refined types of lobha than it is to > have > the moments of true samadhi associated with panna; > and > consequently these states can be made to arise again > and again for quite long periods (all assisted by > miccha viraya, wrong effort). They can seem far more > impressive than the more intermitant right > concentration. > We might have an idea of wrong concentration as > being > some very bad sort of state- but it can be far more > subtle than that. The refined type can be very nice. > > The point I want to make is perhaps rather than > thinking of it as wrong concentration and wrong > effort > it might be better to think of imitation right > concentration and imitation right effort. > Any comments? > Robert > 923 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Thank you Dear Robert, I received those wonderful books you sent me last week. Thank you very much. They will help me to understand what the Buddha taught more, I'm sure. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and encouraging us to walk on the Path. I'm going to search your posts in the archives of DhammaStudy and Triplegem to study them carefully. With Appreciation and Metta, Alex 924 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thank you Dear alex, we are all very glad you joined up Alex. Just in the past few weeks peers of high ability - you, leonardo, O and mike(mn) have come along and I feel so friendly to all of you. There are not so many out there, it seems to me, that have the accumulations to see how refined and difficult Buddhism is. It is not easy to accept that we have barely begun. Most people want quick results. They want to be told they are well on the way and that they can surely attain in this life if they just put in enough effort. They do not like to hear that sati and panna are uncontrollable, or about cira kala bhavana (long, long time development). Thanks Robert--- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I received those wonderful books you sent me last > week. Thank you very > much. They will help me to understand what the > Buddha taught more, I'm > sure. > > Thank you for sharing your knowledge and > encouraging us to walk on the > Path. I'm going to search your posts in the > archives of DhammaStudy and > Triplegem to study them carefully. > > With Appreciation and Metta, > Alex > > > 925 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha) advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake! This holds real promise for improved vayama. Sadhu! mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: "...in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta which we were looking at recently I was struck by the passage: “If there arise evil unskilled thoughts associated with desire, aversion and confusion, that monk should attend, instead of to that characteristic, to another characteristic which is associated with what is skilled”. Such a passage would not be found in relation to satipatthana, because all paramattha dhammas are suitable objects for sati, including our defilements and the everyday rupas. It is helpful to try to understand clearly the differences between the 2 kinds of bhavana." 926 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Leonardo, Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments. > I agree with you in part. I didn't mention > this sutta for the sake of answer > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > vipassana. My intention was only to > put in reference that samatha is not out of > Dhamma-Vinaya. Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be studied). > …………… There are most authors > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > incomplete without Samma-samadhi Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold path. This means it is present at every moment of path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is a cetasika that arises at the moment of path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika ekaggata). > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! This is where it gets interesting! My understanding (although I have not looked at the relevant texts for some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the texts clearly indicate that the path can be realised without attaining the jhanas (there are many references to followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this category). So that brings us to the crucial question- > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > vipassana? What you have to > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > concentration that supports and > conditions your Dhamma understanding? Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika, the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6 path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level. The important thing to realise here is that there is no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi before there can be any satipatthana. > What does >Khun Sujin teach about this? I hope that what I have said in this post reflects what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a translation of one of her talks on this subject I will let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will add to my comments. Jonothan 927 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Jonothan! This is SO GOOD! Where did you people come from?! Sadhu! --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Leonardo, > > Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments. > > > I agree with you in part. I didn't > mention > > this sutta for the sake of answer > > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > > vipassana. My intention was only to > > put in reference that samatha is not out of > > Dhamma-Vinaya. > > Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is > certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be > studied). > > > …………… There are most authors > > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > > incomplete without Samma-samadhi > > Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold > path. This means it is present at every moment of > path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is > a > cetasika that arises at the moment of > path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika > ekaggata). > > > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > > This is where it gets interesting! My understanding > (although I have not looked at the relevant texts > for > some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the > basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the > texts > clearly indicate that the path can be realised > without > attaining the jhanas (there are many references to > followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this > category). So that brings us to the crucial > question- > > > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > > vipassana? What you have to > > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > > concentration that supports and > > conditions your Dhamma understanding? > > Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is > accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to > that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika, > the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6 > path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak > satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the > accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level. > > The important thing to realise here is that there is > no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that > we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi > before there can be any satipatthana. > > > What does > >Khun Sujin teach about this? > > I hope that what I have said in this post reflects > what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a > translation of one of her talks on this subject I > will > let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others > will > add to my comments. > > Jonothan > > > 928 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:47am Subject: Re: sila and mental training --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert and friends, > > Dear Leonardo, > You wrote "Sila, and mental training > > for me is the art to create right conditions to > > panna appears. ......... It is more a process > > to cleanse, remove - even for > > some moments, our impurities." > > There are different ways of purification. The highest > level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually > elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya. > Panna cleanses -not us. > > There are other ways but they cannot get to the > anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm, > full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed. Everything that I'm doing in my daily life is to realize anicca, dukkha, anatta. Sila, Samadhi, Dana, studying Abhidhamma ... are means or rafts to cross the ocean of Dukkha. If I keep Sila and develop the mind without understanding anatta, I'll walk on the wrong path because it'll solidify the concept of self. I also have to be very careful because misunderstanding and wrong views will lead me away from the Path easily. Thank you, Amara, Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Alan, Leonardo, mn, O, ... for showing me a way to realize anatta. I'm grateful. > With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that > or do we want to be something? > > Robert 929 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: meditation > > What does > >Khun Sujin teach about this? > > I hope that what I have said in this post reflects > what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a > translation of one of her talks on this subject I will > let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will > add to my comments. Dear Jonothan and friends, I would like to affirm that you reflect her teachings like still waters reflecting nature! Which leads us to her latest article in the advanced section of , the 'Samatha Sutta' in which the analogy of the mirror is used to explain about truthful reflexion of the state of mind and not the body. The following is the relevant part, about two thirds of the way through the article: So we who study the dhamma would be those who know themselves as they really are. We would know that even the samatha bhavana developed to the arupa-jhana of the highest level would not be able to know even the characteristics, of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of that instant, as not the self. It is not the supreme panna that knows the dhamma that is appearing. On the other hand, if we develop sati-patthana, at the level of magga-citta, it becomes the appana-javana that is as steadfast as the pathama-jhana. Therefore we must know the meaning of the term peacefulness within, depending on the person involved. Even the bhikkhu has to be one who abandons. Of all the Buddha's teachings one should not forget the samuddaya-sacca: lobha or attachments. If somehow we were to attain arupa-jhana without knowing the characteristics of realities, we would become attached: that it is we who attained the jhana, and not panna, that was able to see the reality of the dhamma. Therefore there are different levels of peace, or the instants when there is more or less kusala arising with the citta, making the citta more or less peaceful accordingly. The most important is the peacefulness arising with the samma-ditthi, simultaneously with the samma-sati, as the eightfold or the fivefold magga. *** A much more detailed study of samatha is in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the chapter 'Samatha Bhavana', in the advanced section of the website as well. Usually I would recommend starting the book at the very beginning as if forms a very solid basis for understanding the rest of the book, but all parts are very informative. I'm sorry to say that the glossary to the book will be printed only at the end of the year, which will contain her clear explanations of the pali terms. Anumodana with your kusala dhamma discussions, Amara 930 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:20am Subject: Re: slow down? meditation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > When sitting and deliberately concentrating on certain > objects, say rupas in the body, it is certain that > these objects will become more noticeable. > At these times there is less thinking of the normal > affairs of daily life. The eyes are closed so there is > no seeing consciousness and the mind proceses > following that. If it is a quiet place there are less > ear door processes too. This all contributes to > concentration. However, is it right concentration of > the eightfold path? I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look very calm, full of loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are doing seems give good results. > Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at > almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall > there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we might > not realize this. I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very subtle. Please explain more so that I can recognize it. >Thus it would not be surprising if > lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we have > to find out about this matter. I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a difficult sitting session, I still feel light and happy. I even compare it as taking a swim in Dhamma ocean. >I am not saying that > there is never any sati but is there still some idea > that "I" made sati arise by "my" efforts? Sati may > arise but maybe very little panna if we are doing this > type of practice. It all depends on understanding. That's why I enjoy learning from this group so much. :-))) > It > disapoints me that so many other teachers seem to > think the seeing is not something that should be > understood - or they minimize it as an object for > understanding. At the beginning, it's not easy for us to practice on seeing or smelling because we have to be very alert. On the contrary, it's easier with the breath, because we can observe the breath when it touches the nose. Gradually, even when observing the breath, we are aware of other senses. However, it's a slow process. Moreover, perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that "I" am the one who do it. >Whatever appears should be known - how > can we not be interested in seeing and visible object? > Robert With Metta, Alex 931 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 7:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 4 Types of Individual Sarah, thanks for your thoughtful reply! mn --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike, > > Thankyou for the brief details about your background > and interest in dhamma. > One great thing about this list is that we've all > followed different > teachers in the past and come from different > countries, but here we are > discussing the dhamma together. > > I wanted to reply to this earlier message (below) of > yours before, but > sometimes it's difficult to find time to keep up > with all the great messages > coming in! > > Thankyou for making access to the Raga-vinaya Sutta > so quick and easy. I > also checked a couple of other translations. In the > BPS one, the translator > uses 'live for' rather than 'practice' and the PTS > translation gives 'bent > on'. None say what the Pali is..someone may know. > > Anyway that is of academic interest. What I > understand by the 4th Individual > is that this is someone who develops kusala > (wholesomeoness) and encourages > others. Hopefully, that's what we're doing here! As > O points out, if one > does good deeds with expectation or for some result > in future, there may not > be much kusala involved at all. In these cases one > is in danger of being the > 3rd Individual..the one that neither develops kusala > nor encourages others > to do so. > > In other words when we speak in conventional terms > about doing wholesome > deeds for our own benefit, the emphasis is still on > kusala cetana (good > intention) whether at the level of dana, sila or > bhavana. At times of > expectation or wishing for good results, there is > lobha and moha and often > wrong view, so it is not for anyone's benefit. > > As we know, the highest kusala, for everyone's > benefit, is developing > understanding at this moment. At the moment of > understanding there is no > other being or self! > > I hope this is helpful. > > Sarah > > > > >Dear O, > > > >I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha > always taught that we > >do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for > the benefit of > >others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type > of Individual", at > > > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html > > > >Nice to meet you all! > > > >mn > > > >--- "Sarah Procter > Abbott" > > wrote: > O wrote: > > > > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because > benefit others not > > > because you want the good result in the future. > Another ward you > > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit. > > > > > > 932 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation > > I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look > very calm, full of > loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are > doing seems give good > results. > Yes so have I. Even before the Buddha's time metta could be developed even to the degree of the Brahma realms- higher than anyone can develop it at this time. But metta and wrong view can live together very well. However, sometimes someone might appear very calm but just have lobha. Even subtle lobha (attachment) if it is developed a lot leads one to have a good complexion and be in a conventional sense, calm. The only way to judge whether someone has right view, and to what degree, is by discussing, in much detail, with them. > > Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at > > almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall > > there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we > might > > not realize this. > > I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very > subtle. Please > explain more so that I can recognize it. Only at the moments of kusala - true genorosity,etc are there any breaks from lobha, moha, or dosa. learning to see subtle lobha is vital. i wrote a letter about papanca that might interest you about 4 months ago on this list. > > >Thus it would not be surprising if > > lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we > have > > to find out about this matter. > > I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a > difficult sitting > session, I still feel light and happy. I even > compare it as taking a > swim in Dhamma ocean. This is lobha, attachment. > > . > > At the beginning, it's not easy for us to > practice on seeing or > smelling because we have to be very alert. This shows a deepseated attachment. An attachment to the idea of self. A self who has to be alert or who isn't alert. It shows that one thinks one has to 'catch" realities. But seeing is arising almost continually. I think it is not a matter of it being harder or easier but of whether panna and sati arise. If they do they will penetrate whichever reality appears because that is their function. There is no one who can choose which reality to be aware of. On the > contrary, it's > easier with the breath, because we can observe the > breath when it > touches the nose. according to the tipitaka and commentaries breath is the most difficult of all samattha objects. It appears easy but is exceedingly subtle. Very easy to develop subtle attachment. True samattha arises with detachment - but some people imagine they are succeeding in this meditation if they develop attachment for it! Because we are so used to lobha which arises almost continually we do not realise that it also arises when we try to meditate. It is not just a matter of sitting down and suddenly lobha evaporates . Rather lobha simply changes object. And if we do succeed in having true samattha, with detachment, for periods, this is so extraordinary that it is almost impossible not to feel impressed and take this for the path. But samattha is not satipatthana. Gradually, even when observing > the breath, we are > aware of other senses. However, it's a slow > process. Moreover, > perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that > "I" am the one > who do it. This is all caught up in thinking and hoping and ditthi. It is not the way. Robert 933 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila and mental training --- > > Everything that I'm doing in my daily life is to > realize anicca, > dukkha, anatta. Sila, Samadhi, Dana, studying > Abhidhamma ... are > means or rafts to cross the ocean of Dukkha. Yes that is good. I think we can even say everything is just to undersatnd this moment. > > If I keep Sila and develop the mind without > understanding anatta, > I'll walk on the wrong path because it'll solidify > the concept of > self. I also have to be very careful because > misunderstanding and > wrong views will lead me away from the Path easily. Exactly! And remember that it is not "us" who can stop wrong view. That is just self again. However, by listening studying, considering, questioning, and applying the Dhammma, the conditions for panna are being gradually developed. And it is panna, not us, that understands. It all happens very naturally. robert 934 From: shinlin Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 10:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training Dear Robert, This a good one. Could you pls explain more on the mental training part ? Thanks a million. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training | | Dear Leonardo, | You wrote "Sila, and mental training | > for me is the art to create right conditions to | > panna appears. ......... It is more a process | > to cleanse, remove - even for | > some moments, our impurities." | | There are different ways of purification. The highest | level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually | elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya. | Panna cleanses -not us. | There are other ways but they cannot get to the | anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm, | full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed. | | With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that | or do we want to be something? | Robert | 935 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 10:51am Subject: Re: slow down? meditation Dear Robert, Thank you for clarifying my questions and comments. I appreciate it very much. :-))) Metta, Alex ========================== --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look > > very calm, full of > > loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are > > doing seems give good > > results. > > > Yes so have I. Even before the Buddha's time metta > could be developed even to the degree of the Brahma > realms- higher than anyone can develop it at this > time. But metta and wrong view can live together very > well. > However, sometimes someone might appear very calm but > just have lobha. Even subtle lobha (attachment) if it > is developed a lot leads one to have a good complexion > and be in a conventional sense, calm. > The only way to judge whether someone has right view, > and to what degree, is by discussing, in much detail, > with them. > > > > > > Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at > > > almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall > > > there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we > > might > > > not realize this. > > > > I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very > > subtle. Please > > explain more so that I can recognize it. > > Only at the moments of kusala - true genorosity,etc > are there any breaks from lobha, moha, or dosa. > learning to see subtle lobha is vital. i wrote a > letter about papanca that might interest you about 4 > months ago on this list. > > > > >Thus it would not be surprising if > > > lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we > > have > > > to find out about this matter. > > > > I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a > > difficult sitting > > session, I still feel light and happy. I even > > compare it as taking a > > swim in Dhamma ocean. > > This is lobha, attachment. > > > > . > > > > At the beginning, it's not easy for us to > > practice on seeing or > > smelling because we have to be very alert. > > This shows a deepseated attachment. An attachment to > the idea of self. A self who has to be alert or who > isn't alert. It shows that one thinks one has to > 'catch" realities. But seeing is arising almost > continually. I think it is not a matter of it being > harder or easier but of whether panna and sati arise. > If they do they will penetrate whichever reality > appears because that is their function. There is no > one who can choose which reality to be aware of. > > On the > > contrary, it's > > easier with the breath, because we can observe the > > breath when it > > touches the nose. > > according to the tipitaka and commentaries breath is > the most difficult of all samattha objects. It appears > easy but is exceedingly subtle. Very easy to develop > subtle attachment. True samattha arises with > detachment - but some people imagine they are > succeeding in this meditation if they develop > attachment for it! Because we are so used to lobha > which arises almost continually we do not realise that > it also arises when we try to meditate. It is not just > a matter of sitting down and suddenly lobha evaporates > . Rather lobha simply changes object. > And if we do succeed in having true samattha, with > detachment, for periods, this is so extraordinary that > it is almost impossible not to feel impressed and take > this for the path. But samattha is not satipatthana. > > Gradually, even when observing > > the breath, we are > > aware of other senses. However, it's a slow > > process. Moreover, > > perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that > > "I" am the one > > who do it. > > This is all caught up in thinking and hoping and > ditthi. It is not the way. > > Robert 936 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training Dear Shin, I didn't mention mental training, I was replying to a post by Leonardo where he spoke about it. Would you mind putting your question again with a few more details so that I know what you are most interested in? --- > Dear Robert, > This a good one. Could you pls explain more on > the mental training part > ? Thanks a million. > with metta, > Shin > ----- > | > | Leonardo wrote "Sila, and mental training > | > for me is the art to create right conditions to > | > panna appears. ......... It is more a process > | > to cleanse, remove - even for > | > some moments, our impurities." > | > |Robert wrote "There are different ways of purification. The > highest > | level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually > | elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya. > | Panna cleanses -not us. > | There are other ways but they cannot get to the > | anusaya. With the other ways one can become very > calm, > | full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed. > | > | With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want > that > | or do we want to be something?" > | Robert > | 937 From: shinlin Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training Dear Robert, Could you pls explain the right understanding or right path of mental training ?Thankyou. regards, shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training | Dear Shin, | I didn't mention mental training, I was replying to a | post by Leonardo where he spoke about it. Would you | mind putting your question again with a few more | details so that I know what you are most interested | in? | --- 938 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 0:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions Dear Alex, We're all glad you found your way here eventually, even if it was a little difficult to track down this discussion group. Do you have any suggestions we should implement to make it easier for others? This group is now listed under Buddhism - Theravada groups. While we've been happy to let it grow slowly, it's not meant to be an obstacle course! It's lucky Amara & Varee have the link on their website. Thanks for all your kind comments. metta, Sarah />Dear Sarah and friends, > > I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I studied >meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada Buddhism, just >like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my breath or >observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read one of >the >posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could not open >it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her book was >out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now. The >search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me to this >Forum. And here I am. :-))) > >With Metta, >AT 939 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:43pm Subject: Re: good intentions Dear Sarah, I think that it's fine the way it is because everything happens when enough conditions are met. When we're ready, we'll find the sources, don't you think? Otherwise, even if it's right under our nose, we still ignore it. You're doing great. I have no complaint. Thank you. With Metta, Alex --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > We're all glad you found your way here eventually, even if it was a little > difficult to track down this discussion group. Do you have any suggestions > we should implement to make it easier for others? This group is now listed > under Buddhism - Theravada groups. While we've been happy to let it grow > slowly, it's not meant to be an obstacle course! It's lucky Amara & Varee > have the link on their website. > > Thanks for all your kind comments. > > metta, Sarah > > />Dear Sarah and friends, > > > > I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I studied > >meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada Buddhism, just > >like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my breath or > >observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read one of > >the > >posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could not open > >it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her book was > >out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now. The > >search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me to this > >Forum. And here I am. :-))) > > > >With Metta, > >AT 940 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:59pm Subject: Msg # 523 Three Papanca Dear dhamma friends, I found this long but wonderful message written by Robert a few months ago, and I would like to share it with everyone. Enjoy ... With Metta, Alex ============================= From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings (was re: About Concentration) Dear GROUP Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas (see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa. Studying the Titipika – the Vinaya, the Suttanta, the Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how can we practice correctly? We might be practicing something different from the Buddha's teaching. But how do we study? Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating. Every sentence has deep meaning. Let us consider the word “complication”. This was In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha “This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.”'I looked up the pali of this sentence: “nippapancaramassayam dhammo nippapancaratino nayam dhammo papancaramassa papancarintino” What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and non-complication? I once heard someone –referring to this sutta- say this meant people should not think too much because this complicates things and takes people away from the present moment. And in a superficial way there is something in this. But we can always learn more. Complication in this sutta is the English translation for papanca. There are three papanca – tanha (desire), ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong samasara vata , the round of births and deaths. And now we may want to understand what the Buddha mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or is there more to it? So we study a little more - we learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I 597) says that wordly life is diversified (another word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, lamentation. The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind. Then we might wonder – well is this process of Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just this question over and over one may learn that even when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be present.– For example I am sitting in my office in Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn’t apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these moments in daily life can we find out the answers and really learn just what life is and what the Buddha taught. Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it? Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early practice). But we can also understand it; and I think that is most useful. Then we can study its characteristic more. We might find that it is very common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati. But if we are prepared to study tanha again and again – and of course not neglect the direct study of all other realities- we might become wary of its tricks. We might start to see the difference between true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. Also we might find out that when we thought we had sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin to realize that when we had the idea that we could make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things out we are learning something of immeasurable value. We are learning what we really are – a skin bag stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to comprehend what this path involves. This letter started off to discuss one word from a sutta – papanca .So far we haven’t even scratched the surface on one aspect of papanca. That is to be expected. One aeon is so long – Billions and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took four incalculably long periods of time plus one hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become a Buddha . We don’t have to develop parami to the extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who have so much parami already but this is just tanha, one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who already have great parami, but this is mana, another papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made this aspiration that “questioning discerning people all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of wisdom’. But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so rigorously and then considered how to ask even more discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss with many helpful people but get nothing from it. It is our attitude when investigating that is important. One could be intent on learning about papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas while studying and not even realize that sometimes it was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case then no great benefit comes from such research. We need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the purpose of discussion is to help us better understand this moment. SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone else. I need to develop more listening skills, more questioning skills . I need to study much more , countless times more the characteristics of tanha and mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more the words in the Tipitika. Robert 941 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:43pm Subject: Samatha distinct from vipassana Mike Welcome to the list from me. I appreciate very much your interest and your contributions. > Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I > have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha) > advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake! > This holds real promise for improved vayama. Sadhu! And anumodana/sadhu in your realisation of the importance of this point. It can make a great difference to one’s life. Realising that we don’t have to ‘deal with’ akusala citta that arises can be very liberating. The distinction between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It can help us to understand each of these 2 types of bhavana much better. Proper understanding at an intellectual level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your recent experience exemplifies). Here are some points of comparison between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana- 1. In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment of jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the release from this existence and from further rebirth. 2. The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, while in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of this existence. 3. If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut out. In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense doors, sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc that arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to be fully known (along with the mind door). 4. Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are accompanied by panna. In samatha bhavana the panna is of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta but without seeing the essential characteristic of the citta. In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities (all realities) as they really are. 5. Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing of akusala citta (‘Samatha’ means peacefulness or tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final eradication of all kilesa including the latent tendencies. 6. The practice of samatha bhavana involves at some stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma that appears, as and when it appears. 7. The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha dhamma. 8. When samatha bhavana is developed to the level of jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of the meditation subjects. When vipassana bhavana is developed to the level of Eightfold path consciousness, the object of the citta is nibbana. 9. In samatha bhavana, unwholesome distracting thoughts are an obstacle to progress and must be overcome by directing the mind elsewhere, while in vipassana bhavana any reality - nama, including even ignorance, or rupa - may be taken as the object of the satipatthana citta 10. The higher levels of samatha bhavana require very specific conditions, eg as to place, time, lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition. In vipassana bhavana none of these factors are specially relevant; there are no constraints on the time, place or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take place. These comparisons (other readers may have more) help us understand how the 2 kinds of kusala differ in their practice and accordingly lead to 2 quite different goals. I suspect that many people who teach samatha and/or vipassana do not clearly understand these differences, and so tend to confuse the two. Jonothan 942 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 9:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha distinct from vipassana --- Dear Jon, Your list of the distinctions between vipassana and samattha has just gone into my "Important" folder. I notice your letters are getting more detailed recently. I hope this is a trend that will continue! Robert The distinction between samatha bhavana and > vipassana > bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It > can > help us to understand each of these 2 types of > bhavana > much better. 943 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training > Dear Robert, > Could you pls explain the right understanding or > right path of mental > training ?Thankyou. > regards, > shin Dear shin, In my earlier post I was pointing to the distinction between satipatthana vipassana bhavana and all other types of Kusala (wholesomeness). See also Jonothons post today about samattha and vipassana. All other ways of kusala are beneficial to ourselves and others but only vipassana uproots the causes for samasara vata. If we think signs of progress are such things as keeping sila, calmness, being happy etc. then we are really focussed not on vipassana but on the other kinds of kusala. Here is an analogy that might help: We see a mudhole all dirty and smelly. So we get to work and clean it and plant flowers around it and make it sweet smelling. Now it is attractive and even useful but it is still, at heart, simply a hole in the ground with water in it. And it takes continual care to make sure it stays clean. Another approach to the mudhole is to empty it of the dirty water and then fill it and level it so that it as if it never existed. In this analogy the first approach, of beautification, is the approach that concentrates on sila and samattha. The other, of eliminating the mudhole, is that of vipassana. Which approach are we following? Do we secretly hope that by developing vipassana we will become a special person, an improved version of what we are now? We should know that true vipassana will gradually lead us to becoming nothing. Do we really want that? Maybe we are not ready for this yet? It is good to know about these things and to be honest with ourselves here. If what we really want is beautification then there are many teachings in Buddhism that will help us in this. It is good to understand the distinction between vipassana and other kusala. If we confuse them we won't get the expected results. Other types of kusala are a necessary support for vipassana but they don't help if they are clung too. This is a most profound matter. I am not saying don't do other kusala but rather examine our attitude and motives for doing them. Robert 944 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID 200233014003158153130154190163231222071248015198 Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:20pm Subject: Re: Wrong or imitation? Dear Robert, It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in expressing the poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself doesn't seem to adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like English or Thai which often don't have the one-to-one relationship with Pali. I guess this is why studying the words in Pali are of some importance: they are less distorted by our everyday use of the languages. As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path (forgive the spellings): Right View (Panna) Right Speech (Samma-Vaja) Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta) Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva) Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa) Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama) Right Sati (Samma-Sati) Right Concentration (Samma Samathi) There is also the wrong 8-fold path: Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti) Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha dhamma) Hence, by means of matching to the poramattha dhamma, there are only 9 realities corresponding to Samma-Maggha and Micha-Maggha. The miccha maggha are most likely caused by Lobha and Moha: desiring to be/know the dhamma when there are no conditions for such an event, and not knowing what the 8-fold path truely is. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Robert > I've been impressed and admiring about > your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma. > how long have been studying?:-)) > > "our question" wrong or imitation" > is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't > right > yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma. > , 945 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: meditation As I understand this, as one walks the path toward the maggha cita, there are many many moments of Satipattna citta that arises more and more frequently cognizing the poramattha dhamma. In such a state, the citta are maha-kusala citta, free of the coarse and medium kilesa, free of akusala. When the maggha citta arises, all components of the first-jana citta are present, and according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being appana samathi. --- Jonothan Abbott > > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > > vipassana? What you have to > > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > > concentration that supports and > > conditions your Dhamma understanding? 946 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 1:15am Subject: Re: Wrong or imitation? --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Robert, > > It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in expressing the > poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself doesn't seem to > adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like English or Thai > which > often don't have the one-to-one relationship with Pali. I guess this > is why > studying the words in Pali are of some importance: they are less > distorted > by our everyday use of the languages. > > As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path (forgive the > spellings): > Right View (Panna) > Right Speech (Samma-Vaja) > Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta) > Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva) > Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa) > Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama) > Right Sati (Samma-Sati) > Right Concentration (Samma Samathi) Dear friends in the dhamma, Any student of Khun Sujin's would know that the eightfold path does not describe mundane activities but the cetasikas that operate to bring about the highest form of panna, that which leads to nibbana. We have all discussed the language barriers and it is obviously the Pali which, in his infinite wisdom the Buddha used, is still best when one speaks of the dhamma. The eightfold path according to Khun Sujin in her book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapter on vipassana, advanced section in (http://www.dhammastudy.com/) is as follows: samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). The passage that follows says: At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati- cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama- dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa- dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. I think Kom should also read what Khun Sujin said in the Samatha Sutta which I quoted last time which I shall do so here again: So we who study the dhamma would be those who know themselves as they really are. We would know that even the samatha bhavana developed to the arupa-jhana of the highest level would not be able to know even the characteristics, of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of that instant, as not the self. It is not the supreme panna that knows the dhamma that is appearing. On the other hand, if we develop sati-patthana, at the level of magga-citta, it becomes the appana-javana that is as steadfast as the pathama-jhana. Therefore we must know the meaning of the term peacefulness within, depending on the person involved. Even the bhikkhu has to be one who abandons. Of all the Buddha's teachings one should not forget the samuddaya-sacca: lobha or attachments. If somehow we were to attain arupa-jhana without knowing the characteristics of realities, we would become attached: that it is we who attained the jhana, and not panna, that was able to see the reality of the dhamma. Therefore there are different levels of peace, or the instants when there is more or less kusala arising with the citta, making the citta more or less peaceful accordingly. The most important is the peacefulness arising with the samma-ditthi, simultaneously with the samma-sati, as the eightfold or the fivefold magga. > As I understand this, as one walks the path toward the maggha cita, > there > are many many moments of Satipattna citta that arises more and more > frequently cognizing the poramattha dhamma. In such a state, the > citta > are maha-kusala citta, free of the coarse and medium kilesa, free of > akusala. When the maggha citta arises, all components of the > first-jana > citta are present, and according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi > approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being appana > samathi. I hope Kom and his group could bring us new points to discuss here other than paraphrasing what we have been saying. Maybe he should read our archives less. Amara 947 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 1:33am Subject: Re: meditation according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi > approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being appana > samathi. Dear Everyone, I appologize for the preceeding letter which I now realize was very rude. Of course everyone has the right to say anything as long as it is about the dhamma, here. I only hope Kom is not trying to replace Khun Sujin teaching us the dhamma! (or the English!) But everyone has his own tastes, I suppose. Sorry! Amara 948 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 7:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha distinct from vipassana Excellent! Thanks again. I've known these distinctions for a long time, but over time, discernment can become diffuse and habits careless and confused--due, I think, to exhaustion of the kamma/vipaka that conditioned them originally (assuming they were kusala to begin with)? Anyway, thanks for this lucid and concise reminder--a valuable tool I'll keep for future reference. mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Welcome to the list from me. I appreciate very much > your interest and your contributions. > > > Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I > > have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha) > > advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake! > > > This holds real promise for improved vayama. > Sadhu! > > And anumodana/sadhu in your realisation of the > importance of this point. It can make a great > difference to one’s life. Realising that we don’t > have to ‘deal with’ akusala citta that arises can be > very liberating. > > The distinction between samatha bhavana and > vipassana > bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It > can > help us to understand each of these 2 types of > bhavana > much better. Proper understanding at an > intellectual > level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your > recent experience exemplifies). > > Here are some points of comparison between samatha > bhavana and vipassana bhavana- > > 1. In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment > of > jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana > planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the > release from this existence and from further > rebirth. > > 2. The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is > seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the > akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, > while > in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing > the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of > this existence. > > 3. If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will > be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut > out. In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense > doors, > sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc > that > arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to > be fully known (along with the mind door). > > 4. Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are > accompanied by panna. In samatha bhavana the panna > is > of a level that knows kusala-citta from > akusala-citta > but without seeing the essential characteristic of > the > citta. In vipassana bhavana the panna sees > realities > (all realities) as they really are. > > 5. Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing > of > akusala citta (‘Samatha’ means peacefulness or > tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from > akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final > eradication of all kilesa including the latent > tendencies. > > 6. The practice of samatha bhavana involves at > some > stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen > object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana > bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma > that > appears, as and when it appears. > > 7. The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for > the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana > the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha > dhamma. > > 8. When samatha bhavana is developed to the level > of > jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of t